Episode 82 · 14 March 2024 · 46:55
82: How to be a great leader, with Prof. John Amaechi OBE
Featuring John Amaechi OBE
82: How to be a great leader, with Prof. John Amaechi OBE
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The story every listener has met before
interview#podcast#introduction#sponsor
Introducing John Amaechi's extraordinary career
Defining leadership: perspective, qualities, and will
Management vs. leadership: transactional vs. transformational
interview#management#leadership#transactional#transformational
The biggest misconceptions about leadership
interview#leadership#misconceptions#myths
Why personality tests are mostly bollocks
The Barnum effect and the dirty little trick Leanne played on Al
Why Donald Trump is so attractive to so many people
interview#politics#trump#leadership#appeal
Diversity and inclusion: the target is mediocrity
The leadership void: abdication of responsibility
The hardest promise to keep: Hoover the landing
Personal reflections: growing up as an outlier
Self-awareness: the key to effective leadership
Star Wars, peanut butter, and the perfect ending
interview#star-wars#pop-culture#fun#ending
Show notes
How to Be a Great Leader (and Why Personality Tests Are "Mostly Bollocks") — with Prof. John Amaechi OBE
Guest: Professor John Amaechi OBE — organisational psychologist, former NBA player (the first Briton to play professional basketball in the league), Leadership Transformation Expert at APS Intelligence LTD, Professor of Leadership at the University of Exeter Business School, and author of the New York Times and Sunday Times bestselling book, The Promises of Giants.
What actually makes a great leader? And why are so many of the tools we use to find them — personality tests included — "mostly bollocks"?
John joins Al and Leanne for a masterclass in leadership. He breaks down the difference between management and leadership, explains why self-awareness is the non-negotiable ingredient too many leaders skip, and tackles the uncomfortable truth about diversity and inclusion: that it's not about lowering standards, it's about raising them.
Plus, the leadership void, the "Barnum effect," the best Star Wars film, and the only acceptable way to eat peanut butter.
Top 3 Takeaways
Leadership is about perspective, qualities, and will. It's not a title or a position — it's having the perspective to see what needs to happen, the qualities to do it, and the will to see it through. Managers can be leaders, but only if they stop seeing people as "points in a process."
Personality tests are mostly bollocks. The Barnum effect — making vague, universally applicable statements that feel deeply personal — explains why so many of us believe in them. Real self-awareness beats a four-letter acronym every time.
Inclusion isn't about lowering standards — it's about expanding the talent pool. If you're mediocre, diversity is a threat. If you're excellent, diversity is an opportunity. The target of inclusion is mediocrity, not excellence.
More From John Amaechi
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/amaechi
- The Promises of Giants (book): amazon.com/Promises-Giants-John-Amaechi
- APS Intelligence LTD: apsintel.com
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
John Amaechi OBEUh, the story I often tell is the idea that every one of us, every person listening to this, has met this man— and it will be a man— who said to you the first time you met them, the thing you need to know about me is— this is a declaration of internal self-awareness, right? The thing you need to know about me is that I'm direct and honest. And everybody listening to this right now knows that man is an asshole.
Leanne ElliottHello, and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, yes, and welcome back. If, if this is your first time listening, then welcome. Um, hopefully we've got a great episode. Well, we know we've got a great episode for you. Just a quick reminder that our friends at Mad World Media have the Water Cooler event coming up on the 23rd and 24th of April in London. We were there last year and it was an amazing event with loads of great speakers. In short, if you care about people and culture, you need to be there. There's more info on the Water Cooler website, but to be honest, if you just Google Water Cooler London, you'll find it.
Leanne ElliottBefore we crack on with today's show, I would like to launch an urgent appeal, um, something very personal to my heart, something that brings me so much joy and something that is currently under threat here at the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture offices. We are on our last 6 Yorkshire tea bags, uh, with no opportunity in sight to replenish those stocks. I say this directly to the CEO or the person in charge of marketing Um, well, the person who sends the tea bags at Yorkshire Tea. We live in Bosnia, we are bordering on desperation. Don't make us buy Twinings. Uh, please get in touch. I will leave my personal email address in the show notes.
Al ElliottThank you. So today we've got an amazing guest, an amazing episode. Uh, so we are going to be talking about how to be a leader, how to be a giant of a leader. Do you know what, we're just gonna be talking about how to be a great leader.
Leanne ElliottYes, and we have quite the guest for you today. There are many things to tell you about John Amaechi. There's the usual bio stuff, uh, sure. Professor John Amaechi OBE is a respected organizational psychologist and the leadership transformation expert at APS Intelligence Limited, the consultancy he founded in 2006. John is recognized as an influential thinker in HR. He is the Professor of Leadership at the University of Exeter Business School in the UK and a Fellow of the Institute of Science and Technology. He is the author of New York Times and the Sunday Times bestselling leadership book, The Promises of Giants, where John draws on his early life in Stockport near Manchester.
Al ElliottOi, oi.
Leanne ElliottHis career as the first Briton to play professional basketball in the NBA, and deep psychological insights to challenge and inspire others. In doing so, he continues to be driven by the words his mother once used to inspire him when she said that the most unlikely of people in the most improbable of circumstances can become extraordinary. He is a non-executive director of a FTSE 250 company, was a 10-year director of the UK's largest healthcare organization, and a board advisor for several FTSE 100 organizations. He is also a LinkedIn influencer and has been a LinkedIn Top Voice since 2020. In 2023, John was nominated for and awarded the Sports Industry Integrity and Impact Award. Quite the resume. But there are some other things that are important to know about John. John is a mentor and a teacher, including indirectly. He has had a transformative impact on the practice of psychologists around the world, myself included. People who think facts and evidence should bow to opinion drive John crazy. He is passionate about Star Wars, and as you'll hear, has some very specific views on peanut butter. Spending an hour in conversation with John was an absolute privilege, and if I'm being honest, a career highlight that will be very, very, very hard to beat. They say you should never meet your heroes, but everyone should meet John Amaechi.
John Amaechi OBEI am a psychologist, a nerd, a geek. Those 2 things are not the same. I am a sci-fi fan and still a child at heart when it comes to that type of thing. My day job is trying to make workplaces better for people to thrive in, trying to convince people and create the systems so that people can understand that you can have a high-performing workplace keep it in perspective and still have people that thrive. We're nerds, all of my team. We're just nerds. We like the idea that science evidence rather than anecdote and kind of give it a go can really make people's lives better. I'm really lucky. I have a job that's amazing and that's interesting every day. But even if your job isn't that, I think organizations can make people's lives More enjoyable.
Al ElliottSo let's start with the term leader. It's what John's book Promises of Giants is all about. Now, we bandy around this term leaders, but I'm pretty sure most of us don't really know what leadership is. We couldn't miss the opportunity of asking one of the greatest minds in psychology today to define leadership for us.
John Amaechi OBEI tend to think that leadership is, is a couple of things. It's about Having the perspective, qualities, and will to create an environment where lots of people can operate effectively together and in service of a common goal. But it's also the ability to operate in a way that makes other people want to follow you. Because so much of the time in leadership, what we really think about is what are the traits? Give me 5 traits that are good leaders. And what we often forget is that there's this thing called social identity theory. This is the nerd part, right? But this is the idea that leadership isn't just about, I'm driven, I'm courageous, I'm intellectual, I'm whatever else, ambitious. But it's also about the fact that I'm, as a leader, are you the kind of person who makes people through your genuine and authentic activity want to follow you. It makes it easy to follow you. It makes it easy for you to deliver on your brilliance. Most of us have been in rooms where we've had something to offer, but just the nature of the leader in the room, or more probably the manager in the room, has made it so we just didn't want to offer it or didn't feel safe to offer it, or, you know what I mean? So it's that combination of, yes, some qualities that are important to create space that people can thrive, but also the qualities that acknowledge the, the individual contributions, opportunity for brilliance of others.
Leanne ElliottOften the word leader and manager seems interchangeable. As a business psychologist, I'm usually trying to help other business owners understand the difference. So I asked John what he thought the difference was.
John Amaechi OBEYou can be one of those people who has a transactional relationship with work. And sees people as points in a Gantt chart, and you can effectively project manage. But that to me is a form of pure management. And it's not that it's unimportant, but absent leadership, it's so sterile and threatens to make people feel like widgets of productivity, which is never a successful long-term strategy. So I suppose that's the difference, right? Leaders need management skills. I'm not the CEO of my organization. In part because my boss, who's a CEO, is a better manager than I am. But I have a strong leadership role to play in my organization. And so we augment each other in that way. He also has leadership credentials too. But I do recognize that sometimes you can be technically able to manage individuals within a project and still not be seen in any way as a leader.
Leanne ElliottJohn works with organizations all around the world. So how well are we doing as leaders? As a teacher, How would he be grading us?
John Amaechi OBEThere's a burgeoning group of people, an increasingly large group of people who are in the kind of, I don't even like to say his name, but the Elon Musk school of things where his philosophy is really, I'm brilliant. You should want to be close to me. And then I'm like the sun as well as being brilliant. So you should expect to be burnt to a crisp in my presence. And then he discards you. And that's like a natural cycle for him. To me, not particularly sustainable or humane, but there are a burgeoning number of people who, the idea that if you burn out, it's because you don't have resilience, it's because you are not tough enough, it's because it's nothing to do with how they're operating, which is often incredibly toxic. There's this group of leaders who really want to be the very best leaders, and they haven't quite figured out some of the skills are required because change is a science. I keep This is my mantra at the moment. Change is a science. And so creating a psychologically safe space isn't about making nice warm noises or the right kind of face. It's a set of skills, creating trust. These things are, these are enabled by very specific behaviors. Um, and they don't have those skills. I think it's that combination of things. So I probably, there's a distribution in our class is what I'd say. And very few people are getting an A. Mm-hmm.
Al ElliottAs a non-expert, I see so many posts on social media, particularly LinkedIn, about being a great leader, and I kind of feel like they're just repurposing the same old shite. So we asked John what the biggest misconceptions were about leaders.
John Amaechi OBEThe biggest misconception is, is really drawn from the way that we create leaders, because we don't really distinguish in workplaces or organizational systems between a manager and a leader. We assume that if you are capable of managing a project and people technically, You are probably going to be a decent leader because that's how we progress people. We assume that everybody wants to be a leader when really what most people want is the ability to progress and make more money. So we forget the fact that the same things that make us brilliant technically, the ability to absorb knowledge, to keep it up to date because things change and the science change and we know new things year on year, the ability to have skills and tools that will enable us to work with different kinds of individuals and lead them effectively is separate from the idea that we're just very clever. Most people are familiar with people like Brian Cox, the physicist with the amazing lilting voice that makes you want to listen to him forever. And Neil deGrasse Tyson in America is kind of an equivalent of that kind of amazing communicator. But what makes both of them excellent teachers is not just that they really know their stuff, it's that they can convey this to other people in a way that is compelling, that element of leadership that is about vision building. is so compelling that I, a person who failed their physics A-level, want to watch Brian Cox and Neil deGrasse Tyson both, despite the fact it's a subject I'm not interested in. There's a really good example of that. I want to follow them, even though the thing that they talk about is not traditionally something I even care about. But when they talk about it, I find it utterly compelling.
Leanne ElliottOne of the dominant theories of leadership back in the '80s beautiful decade, um, and it actually still seems to linger today, is the idea of transformational leadership. So a psychologist called Bernard Bass created the concept of transformational leadership and basically argued that transformational leaders have a very charismatic, inspirational approach, and because of that, they're much more effective in eliciting the desired behaviors from staff, such as extra effort, high motivation, higher satisfaction, higher performance. And while these models have shown promise in promoting performance and employee engagement, they can also promote stereotypes and biases that can affect leadership opportunities and the evaluation of leadership effectiveness. This— I mean, and think about it, a charismatic leader, they need to be good with people, right? Confident, assertive, risk-taking, probably a bit unconventional, innovative, and it goes without saying, extroverted. Who are you picturing right now? I would put money on the chance you're probably imagining a white male, probably in tech. Steve Jobs, perhaps? It is a common belief that great leaders need to be extroverted rather than introverted, and many organizations will use personality tests to identify this extroversion trait in potential leaders. But is that fair? Is it even correct?
John Amaechi OBEPersonality tests are They're mostly bollocks. I don't know what kind of language you do on your podcast, but they're just mostly, they're mostly bollocks, right? And they do us a great disservice. They are, most of the people who build these personality inventors will tell you that they've all been updated over the years. And so it's different now, but essentially they come from a school of thought that thought that personality was immutable. You know, you did your personality test and that's who you are. And they come from a school that says that you can boil down complexity of human beings into very, very tight packages. When you think about it, some of the most popular personality profiles like DISC, that DISC was invented by the man who wrote the Wonder Woman comics. I don't know if people know this, but the man who wrote the Wonder Woman comics is the person who invented the DISC. Now, I love comics.
Al ElliottRight.
John Amaechi OBEYou can see in my background, I love that type of fantasy, but I can separate that from anything that should be able to categorize human beings. How on earth did we ever fall for the idea that the complexity and richness of a human being could be captured in a primary color? How did we fall for that? How do we end up with proper, supposedly smart workplaces having building their teams on the basis of, well, I need 2 reds, a green, and a blue. How did that happen? How did we get to a place where people thought, oh no, no, that woman's far too reflective and thoughtful to be a leader? It leads us to a place where bombast, utter certainty in the face of evidence that should change your mind, a kind of invulnerability to the thoughts and feelings of other people, It leads us in the direction of monsters, and that's where we are, led by monsters, certainly in a political sense.
Al ElliottLed by monsters. What a line. We are going to come back to that in just a second. But firstly, it does feel a bit like the most successful leaders are all extroverts standing on stage being all extrovert-y. But as Leanne has been saying for years, if you believe this, you have fundamentally misunderstood the difference between introversion and extroversion.
John Amaechi OBEAll of you introverts out there, I'm an introvert and my kind of introversion may not represent their kind of introversion. And that's the thing that many people don't understand. We're not, it's not just a monoculture, but for me, introversion translates into something akin to, I find human beings really energy expensive. Being in the presence of other people I'm supposed to go to a concert tonight to see Emily Sandé. It's just like this little jazz club, and I really love her. But I may not go because I've had a lot of people in my week, and it just feels, even though I love this thing, it just feels like it's just a bit too much to be with all of those people because it's just very energy expensive. But When it comes to work, it doesn't mean that we can't communicate effectively or even be in conflict if we disagree on things. It doesn't mean that I can't make decisions. It simply means that how I do that will look a little different than the often bloke who just says, no, not that, this, I've always done it this way. Or the person who says, oh, after work, let's all go out and let's all engage. It's just a little bit different. But yes, introverts, you can lead. Extroverts, you can lead. All the various myriad of options in between can lead. And none of you are defined by what some incredibly obtuse test tells you you are.
Al ElliottSo, Leah, would you like to tell the listeners about the dirty little trick you played on me back in episode 6 with the Myers-Briggs test?
Leanne ElliottYeah, sorry. It was funny, though.
Al ElliottIt was funny, actually.
Leanne ElliottNo, I did. So if you haven't listened, I mean, first go back and listen. Episode 6 is called Myers-Briggs Brilliant or Bullshit, the idea I made Al take the Myers-Briggs, or a shortened version, um, and then basically blew his mind with the accuracy of the insights I provided him, uh, from the Myers-Briggs, but were actually, uh, just insights I took from his horoscope that week. He's a Gemini, by the way, if you're interested.
Al ElliottTrue story.
Leanne ElliottUm, I told John this and he belly laughed. He explained that this is called the Barnum effect, which is loosely related to P.T. Barnum off of The Greatest Showman. Uh, but side note, actually, he isn't as good a bloke as that film would have us believe. Um, go and Google it. Anyway, here's John with more on the Barnum effect.
John Amaechi OBEThe Barnum effect, this idea that saying things that sound loosely, um, applicable to almost any scenario, that's exactly what they've become. My challenge to it is simply that If you look at personality inventories, isn't it interesting how the good profiles, and we all know those are the assertive ones, those are the loud ones, those are the decisive ones, they're the ones that get you progressed. And isn't it interesting how something in the order of 70% of those seem to apply to men? It's really interesting. We wonder why we don't have progression when certain of these profiles seem to apply directly to people from the Northern Hemisphere and men from the Northern Hemisphere predominantly, and middle-class men who've had a certain type of education. So all of this personality testing is not just dangerous because it doesn't really help you form teams. It's dangerous because it's antithetical to bringing the full and mature talents of all your team to the fore.
Al ElliottSo a moment ago, we left John saying That's where we are led by monsters, certainly in a political sense. Come on, we couldn't just let this go. We all know who he was talking about. We are heading into a really interesting year in terms of global politics. So we asked John what his thoughts were on the leadership contenders and why Donald Trump is so engaging and influential to so many people.
John Amaechi OBEWhy is Donald Trump so attractive to so many people? Never underestimate The ability for people to suspend their morality for a quick fix. I'm a gay person. I have no self-interest in that thing that some horrible straight men do where they defend women, but it's really just about them being more attractive to women. But I don't have any skin in that game whatsoever. But the moment Donald Trump said he would grab a woman by her genitalia, We were done. But you can't underestimate the fact that there are evangelical Christians who are his biggest base in America, who ignore the fact that he has cheated on every person who has become his wife with the next person to become his wife, who have ignored the fact that he would sexually assault women and boast about it, make fun of disabled people and boast about it. And these people would purport to be Christian, but what they're doing is just focusing on that one thing they want, the overturning of Roe v. Wade or something else. That's one reason why people follow this man. The other reason is that when systems are under pressure, whether it's a society or community, we stop being interested in nuance and complexity in our leaders and start being interested in things that seem certain. Stop the boats. Build that wall. We want the things that are certain and aligned and send out flares of messages that say that this person is aligned with a fundamental sense of who we are. So one of the frightening things about people like Donald Trump, things like a number of our former and current prime ministers, is actually that it's an indication of what people truly believe.
Leanne ElliottLet's talk about diversity and inclusion. It has been at the top of the the people and culture agenda for a while now, and regular listeners will know that we talk about it pretty frequently. In fact, it was International Women's Day last Friday, and the theme was inspiring inclusion. We shared a Spotify playlist of some great episodes from both our podcast and others, uh, of women speaking about inclusion over the last 12 months. Head over to LinkedIn if you want to check it out. But of course, with International Women's Day and other such days of celebration, we will see things on social media that maybe aren't quite in line with the theme. There are some people who feel that the whole thing about gender equity has just gone a bit too far, really. Has it?
John Amaechi OBEThere's many people who think, and I hope you haven't had to deal with any on your show, but there's many people who think that this whole thing about gender equity has gone a bit far, hasn't it? I mean, look, there you are. You've got your own podcast now. What more do you want? There's many people. Look, there's a CEO over there, or there's something, there's like 3 or 4 directors, and Haven't gone too far. Same thing with Black people. Same thing with disability. Do we really need ramps at every door? You know, should we really be making reasonable accommodations? There are lots of people who actually believe this, but they can feel a lot better about voting because nobody sees them do it when they slip into that ballot. And they can tell everybody they didn't vote, even as Donald Trump will win the presidency, perhaps in a landslide this year.
Al ElliottIt's terrifying.
John Amaechi OBEIt's disappointing. There's hope, by the way. There's hope. It's just a little longer term than many people imagine.
Al ElliottYou probably see on socials these days viewpoints like, it's better being a woman now, isn't it? That being gay now, for example, isn't as bad as it was 30 years ago. Or from a more skeptical perspective, who's representing me as the white middle-class straight man? Where's my straight day rather than straight pride? That's what you see quite a lot, which is A bit tiresome, to be fair. So how can we deal with these types of viewpoints and objections to continue to try and drive progress in equality, diversity, and inclusion?
John Amaechi OBEI wouldn't be a psychologist worthy of respect if I supported other people's delusions. And it doesn't mean always, and I'm not a clinical psychologist, but certainly confronting people's delusions is not always the right approach. But certainly you shouldn't support people in sliding into a delusion. And so If men, other men, think that the world has suddenly turned against them and that the opportunities for them are twisted now and diminished, I often suggest to people, people say this in workplaces to me all the time, well, what about white men now? Is it really, my chances seem to be curtailed. And I tell them this, I tell them, if your workplace is biased against white men, it is terrible at it. It is not good at it. Because if you look around the structures of your organization, it is clearly not the problem. What I remind people like that is there is an enemy. Inclusion has an enemy. It has a target. It's just not who you think it is. Many people, you've probably talked to them, who say that inclusion is out to get men's jobs, is out to get white people's jobs, is out to get middle-class people's jobs and to force a world where it is disabled, Black, lesbians, um, who are wheelchair users, who are in charge of everything, that kind of narrative. And it isn't that. It's simply the target that inclusion has so clearly in its sights is mediocrity. Oh, oh, yes. If you're a mediocre man, woman, gay person, straight, transgender, wheelchair user, uh, neuroatypical, it doesn't matter what kind of mediocre you, you are.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
John Amaechi OBEAnd I don't mean people who are working hard and have reached a level and they perhaps won't have the potential to reach another level. I'm talking about people who simply choose to be mediocre. We call them in workplaces, what, the marzipan layer, the permafrost, these people who, you notice them right before appraisal and then they disappear back into the trees. It's coming for them because the inclusion is trying to broaden the base of people who might join your organization and broaden it not in terms of anybody can join, but the criteria of excellence remain the same. It's simply we're discarding some of the barriers. We're saying, so what if you're a carer and you need to come in at 9:30 because you've got kids to drop off, or same thing conversely at night, just do your hours and do them brilliantly. All of a sudden, the pool of brilliant people who really want to contribute expands. And so if you are a man who's really comfortably, or a woman, or an anybody who has really comfortably cruised for most of your career, yeah, inclusion's a threat to you because somebody else who really wants to drive and do well wants your role. And any organization worth its salt wants that person.
Leanne ElliottThat might be one of my favorite parts of the interview. If you're mediocre, then yes, quality and diversity is coming for you. I love that. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make beer taste better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottIn John's book, The Promises of Giants, he explains how readers can fill the leadership void. But what is the void that John is talking about?
John Amaechi OBEYeah, it's the abdication of the responsibilities of power, even as people embrace the benefits of it. So again, we talked about people like Donald Trump and Rishi Sunak and others, right? Boris Johnson. These people embrace the power, In a very, what's called in the literature, it would be called something like the personalized power motivation. I like power because what I can do with it for me. And they abandon or abdicate the responsibility for the kind of socialized power dynamic, which doesn't mean you can't have nice stuff. It doesn't mean you can't take your increased wage for your role as a leader and go on holiday to Aruba or whatever. It simply means that with that responsibility comes the idea that you have people that you must see as individuals. As human beings, you'll have to recognize that their wellbeing is predominantly in your hands. Gallup in 2015, everybody knows this survey, right? So it's not something special, but 2015 Gallup did that survey where they talked about managers, direct line managers that are 70% of the variance in the engagement of their people. There are so few environments where we have that kind of data. Where we can say, even in schools, it's not that clear that teachers have that same— teachers obviously have a massive impact. But in workplaces, we know for a fact that the people who work for you, those 1, 2, 15 people who work for you directly, you are the primary source of their engagement or disengagement. You are the primary source of their sense of self, whether they think they're capable, competent, Have potential, belong. It's you. And that's the gap. That's the void. People who have embraced the increased salary, or often not very increased salary because we don't really respect leaders, that they embrace that side of it. But the bit that's about human beings is like, ugh, all right then. Oh, you're not feeling good today. All right then. Talk to me while I look at my phone or while I'm also kind of doing something else over here. Yeah. That piece there, that's the leadership void. And it's not a nice to have because nobody in my team would tell you that I am nice. I am robust, demanding. I want work to be done at a quality.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
John Amaechi OBEThat makes it almost perfect. I want people to be vigilant and diligent and work hard. And then I want them to go home and have a glass of wine and chill out with their family. But demand is not that I'm soft and warm. And it's not that leadership is about being soft and warm. It's about knowing that if someone is anxious and you can ease that anxiety, you've created somebody who can perform better for you and will be grateful. for your intervention. If someone is scared, worried about making a mistake, and you can ease their worry, help them to understand how to not make that mistake, or at least to ameliorate it, the risk of it, they will be grateful and want to work with you. It's about creating legions who stand around you, not a line of people who begrudgingly tread behind you.
Leanne ElliottI think for me, it all comes down to this. Talk is cheap. Actions are what define you. John's book sets out 14 promises that leaders need to keep to fill the leadership void. Is there a promise that John thinks is the hardest to keep?
John Amaechi OBEHoover the landing. Hoover the landing is the epilogue. It's a story in the book that almost, I should say, I think it's important to say that this book is mostly my mother's and not mine. So, you know, I used to tell my mother as a child that I loved her all the time, but I would often not complete my jobs, my chores that I was given. And Hoover the Landing is the culmination of a day when she walked into our house exhausted, you know, shaking almost because she was so tired. And I'd stayed up. to throw my arms around her in a very dramatic way. I like a bit of drama and say I loved her. And she didn't really respond to it because she was looking around my shoulders all the time at the house. And then she asked me, you know, did you do your chores? Did you, did you hoover the landing? That was my job for the night. And I said, no, no, but I just, I love you so much and I want to stay up and tell you I love you. And she just pushed me away. And looked at me and said, love, if you love me, you'd hoover the landing. Because it's doing the crap that we don't like, but is important for other people, that is the indicator of our actual, the depth of our actual emotion, not just talking that game. So the thing that is easy for me to do is come onto something like this and talk to you about about leadership and all the tenets and what I think is important. And the hardest thing for me, like many people perhaps, is that when we finish talking, I've got to demonstrate it.
Leanne ElliottIn his book, John describes leaders as giants and believes that there are no breaks for giants. But is this asking too much of our leaders? Well, as John explains, with great power comes great responsibility.
John Amaechi OBEI think there's a duty of care that is very tightly associated with high performance expectations. We want our people to perform. We want that to happen sustainably. You and I both know that people complain endlessly about churn, about people leaving organizations and the cost of hiring and the cost of induction. So it's a very practical concern to say to people, I think, given the impact of managers we know on individual people in and outside of work, there's really good data on the impact of managers and the experience of people even when they're not at work. People are happier outside of work when their manager in work is better skilled in terms of leadership. That's an amazing thing to consider. So under those circumstances, it's only right that we demand a set of core skills, right? So all we're asking of leaders who have— imagine, we often forget that we have the careers, lives, hopes, aspirations, not to mention the sense of identity, of self, of potential and worthiness of real human beings in our hands. How many of those should a person be allowed to have in their hands before they are— we demand that they have some skills to ensure that they do no harm? At the very least, that's the bottom line, right? It's not even a— that's not aspirational. It's just Don't hurt these people because work shouldn't have a body count.
Al ElliottIf you read John's book, and you should, you'll realize just how honest he is with the reader. So Leanne asked him about his life growing up and what we needed to know to better understand who he is today.
John Amaechi OBEI've never fit in. Uh, I said that in the present tense, which is interesting. I shall talk about that with my therapist. Um, when I was younger, I never fit in anywhere I went. I was always the outlier. And my whole life, I have known that I'm a monster. I am a monster. It's, it's not what I think of me, but in this world, what other people think of you regularly is is really an important indicator of how you will be treated. And I don't leave my house very much. I'm very, very privileged. People should know this. This is not a sob story. I'm incredibly privileged. I live in what I suppose is a penthouse in Covent Garden, right? And in Covent Garden, in my postcode, there are 26 people. Up until a few years ago, my neighbor was Andrew Lloyd Webber. It's that kind of place, right?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
John Amaechi OBENot a sob story, but I don't leave my house because I hate the way I see myself reflected in the faces of people I meet. I terrify people. It's as if I'm the super predator wandering the streets amidst a crowd and everybody operates around me with incredible caution. I walked around the corner of the courtyard. I just, it was early in the morning.
Leanne ElliottOh, wow.
John Amaechi OBEAnd this was last year sometime, but it happens fairly often, something like this. I walked around the corner and it wasn't like I walked right into this couple, but there was a couple walking towards me and they both were holding coffee cups from the local coffee shop that we have here. And as I walked around the corner, she was talking to her partner, I assume. And then she looked up and saw me and she dropped her cup. And it's like, I'm a monster. People follow me around shops fearing that I will steal something and run away. And after a while, even though I know that I'm a nerd who likes Greggs steak slices, Yorkshire Gold, and Star Wars, there's no way that I can't also understand That, that image does not translate to the world around me. And what they see is a monster. And if you've been a monster your whole life, from the age of 6, as I towered over my primary school people, your empathy for others who are othered, your empathy for people who are also seen as defective or broken or somehow Not one of us is peaked.
Al ElliottThis is a superb example of someone who is very, very self-aware. Talking of which, John said that if there was one thing he wished every leader had, it would be incredible self-awareness.
John Amaechi OBEIf we could mandate self-awareness, many of the problems would dissipate or be more easily managed. Great harm is done to other human beings by people who don't know themselves. Even greater harm is done to vulnerable, but all human beings, by powerful people who think they know themselves well, but don't. And that is the case, by the way. And this is not my work. This is Tasha Eurich. She's really brilliant. She does great stuff, really accessible kind of She writes in a really accessible way. So a proper example of a scientific writer who doesn't try to bamboozle you. So she's done great articles in HBR and things like that. And she talks about the fact that most people think they're self-aware. If you ask people, are you self-aware? Most people, it's like 95% of people say, yes, I'm self-aware. But when you actually do some probing questions, she's got this big set of people. I don't know, I couldn't remember what that's called, but a big group of people that she's that she's done this inventory on. And she's discovered that when you ask people, that 95% say they're self-aware, but when you actually probe a little bit, 10 to 15% of people are self-aware. And so this gap is damage that's just waiting to happen. And then the other part is that she talks about internal and external self-awareness. The idea that internal is that we know our values and our principles, so we'll probably know the name of something that's important to us. It's a value, it's a principle, and we'll know that. And it really will. I'm not even maligning it. It really will be very important to people. But external self-awareness is how those principles interact with the world outside, how people receive those things. And so the story I often tell is the idea that every one of us, every person listening to this has met this man, and it will be a man who said to you the first time you met them, The thing you need to know about me is, this is a declaration of internal self-awareness, right? The thing you need to know about me is that I'm direct and honest. And everybody listening to this right now knows that man is an asshole.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
John Amaechi OBEAnd it's not that he means to be. It's simply that he's unaware that direct and honest for him comes across as thoughtless, callous, cruel to other people. If we could remedy this, 2 things would happen. One, people would understand the harm that they're doing and want, because I do believe most people don't want to do harm, they'll do it less. But also, the people who continue to do harm will now know that they're a different kind of actor. They're not actually people who are unaware of the harm they're doing. They know the harm they do. And they're choosing to sustain it despite the fact that they've got an alternative. And that's why I think that self-awareness piece would be so huge for us because we can respond differently to people who we understand are actually evil, not incompetent.
Leanne ElliottTo quote John's mum, would you recognize your soul in the dark? What a nugget of wisdom. Oh man, there you have it. That is one of the world's experts giving you a free lesson on leadership. So now I want you to go and do 2 things. First, go and buy John's book, not because we get any payback for it, but because it is genuinely one of the best books on leadership you will ever, ever read. In fact, I have my copy here. It usually sits on my desk next to me for some reason. Here it is if you're on video. If you're on audio only, I am currently holding up a copy of John Amaechi's book, The Promises of Giants: How You Leadership Void, and you will hear more incredible nuggets of wisdom from John's mum. So that's the first thing. Second, Al, do you want to take this one?
John Amaechi OBEFold 2.
Al ElliottYour agreement is twofold. Fold 2. I'm seconding. So you need to pay this forward. You need to spread the word. All right, you don't need to. We'd like you to. You can find links to John in the show notes. But to be honest, if you Google anything to do with people and culture or leadership, he's going to be on page 1 of the results. So you might not even need those links. Now, at the beginning, John describes himself as a nerd, a geek, and we never found out the difference between the two, John. So you have to come back. Yep, you have to tell us the difference between the two. And he's also a huge Star Wars fan. So therefore, before we go, we have a question for someone who's not seen Star Wars. Not looking at you, Lee. Mm-hmm. Not seen Star Wars. Which movie should she start with?
John Amaechi OBESo you always start with A New Hope. I know it's the middle technically of the trilogy, but always start with A New Hope. And You'll meet R2-D2, this bloke here. You'll see lots of grownups waving around lightsabers. It's epic. Start with A New Hope and don't listen to the people who tell you that Star Wars has been ruined. Just remember that the first original Star Wars, they were designed for kids. And with each generation of them, it's not always designed for those of us who were kids back then. But I think it's bringing something, even the ones I did not like, like anything with Jar Jar Binks in it, even the ones I didn't like, they are bringing something to a new generation of people who realize that rebelling against great evil is always worth it.
Leanne ElliottRebelling against evil is always worth it. What a place to end the podcast on. John Amaechi, an absolute legend. And just a really beautiful, kind, generous— just everything you'd want, um, in, in somebody you look up to. Um, and as a psychologist and expert, he is phenomenal. Go and check out everything that he has done. He has lots of funny podcast episodes out there, lots of great interviews, articles, and of course his book. John Amaechi, thank you. You are an absolute gentleman. We really appreciate being on the show, and we hope that you will be back very, very soon.
Al ElliottYep. So go and check out John in the show notes. Also, if you want to discuss this, then we're— I say we're always on LinkedIn every week. I say we're on LinkedIn. I should just say Leanne's on LinkedIn. Search for Truth, Lies and Work on LinkedIn. You'll find that we've got a page there. You'll also be able to see Leanne, and you can chat to her, ask questions. There'll be a post on this episode. So ask questions. And it might even be that, that Sir John himself, although he's going to be a sir soon, surely.
Leanne ElliottI'm gonna write a strongly worded letter to the King right now.
Al ElliottIf you're listening, Charlie, yeah, take a note. But yeah, so Johnny may even jump in and answer your questions yourself. So if you've enjoyed this pod, you know what to do. Go and tell loads of people, go and share it on, on social media. We'd really appreciate it. And we will see you next week for another amazing episode.
Leanne ElliottWe will. Next week is a big week. It is the big announcement that we, we teased you with last week. Um, and another great reason to go and follow us on LinkedIn because we will be having a live event on Monday the 18th of March to announce the big changes you'll be seeing from Al and I. Are we staying together? Are we getting divorced? Um, we'll answer that question as well.
Al ElliottWill I be wearing a hat? We don't know.
Leanne ElliottWell, I think the size of your head may suggest it's quite tricky.
Al ElliottYeah, I've got Scottish heritage, I've got a big old head, so you have to find a big old hat. Anyway, we digress. Anything Anything else to add, love?
Leanne ElliottNo, I'm done.
Al ElliottRight. We'll see you next week.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye. Is peanut butter better in the US or the UK?
John Amaechi OBEOh, it doesn't matter where you get it. Peanut butter is better when it's unhealthy versions rather than the healthy version. My sister only has the healthy version in her house and I will not eat it. Whereas I, once a month probably, buy a big jar of Skippy or Jif. It does not matter, which is, I do believe, mostly sugar, and I eat it with a spoon.
Leanne ElliottCrunchy or smooth?
John Amaechi OBEAlways smooth because this is not about— look at the gaps in my teeth. I can't afford to eat the crunchy. I'll end up with those things in my teeth for the next 3 weeks. So it's got to be the smooth.