Episode 126 · 10 September 2024 · 47:55
19 ways to improve your life, WTF is 'Founder Mode', and the UK's new 4-day work week - This Week in Work, 10th September 2024
19 ways to improve your life, WTF is 'Founder Mode', and the UK's new 4-day work week - This Week in Work, 10th September 2024
0:000:00
Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.
Enjoying the show? Subscribe for free
Chapters & timestamps
Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.
Intro and welcome to This Week in Work
news roundup#podcast-intro#welcome
UK's new right to request a four-day work week
news roundup#four-day-work-week#uk-employment-law#work-life-balance
Founder Mode vs. Manager Mode
news roundup#founder-mode#manager-mode#leadership#management
19 science-backed ways to improve your life
news roundup#science-backed#wellbeing#productivity#psychology
Fresh Voices: Marion Campan on finding your ideal workplace
news roundup#workplace-culture#job-search#career-advice#fresh-voices
Workplace Surgery: feeling excluded from an office clique
workplace surgery#workplace-dynamics#office-cliques#inclusion#belonging
Workplace Surgery: giving feedback to a more experienced team member
workplace surgery#feedback#mentorship#experience#communication
Workplace Surgery: getting honest feedback from employees
workplace surgery#employee-feedback#engagement#honesty#management
Show notes
19 Ways to Improve Your Life, WTF is 'Founder Mode', and the UK's New 4-Day Work Week
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the UK's new right to request a four-day work week, the viral "Founder Mode vs. Manager Mode" debate, and 19 science-backed ways to improve your life. Plus, a new segment — Fresh Voices — featuring corporate culture expert Marion Campan, and the World Famous Weekly Workplace Surgery tackling office cliques, giving feedback to more experienced team members, and getting honest answers from employees.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. UK workers to gain right to request a four-day work week This autumn, UK workers will get the legal right to request a four-day work week, with employers required to consider requests unless they can prove it's not "reasonably feasible." Championed by Deputy Prime Minister Angela Rayner, the policy has sparked debate — critics worry about economic growth, while Labour sources argue flexibility boosts productivity. Leanne points to the research: the trials that work best are based on people working their contracted hours in four days, not a 20% pay cut for 80% of the work.
2. Founder Mode vs. Manager Mode — the viral leadership debate Paul Graham of Y Combinator and Brian Chesky, co-founder of Airbnb, have sparked a social media firestorm arguing that founders often stay hands-on even as companies scale — pushing back against the traditional advice to delegate and step back into "Manager Mode." Al and Leanne dig into why this isn't an either/or, why the discourse might be giving people an excuse to micromanage, and why entrepreneurs love the idea so much.
3. 19 science-backed ways to improve your life The British Psychological Society published a list of 19 evidence-based tips for a better life. Leanne highlights two standouts: "Normalise not knowing stuff" (perfect for imposter syndrome — keep a Notebook of Things You Don't Know, à la Richard Feynman) and "Instead of wrestling with anxiety, accept it" (with a nod to Dr. Kieran Schnack's work on acceptance). Al proposes a new segment: Wisdom Snacks.
🎤 Fresh Voices: Marion Campan
New segment alert! Each week in September, Al and Leanne are showcasing thought leaders you might not have heard of yet. This week: Marion Campan, corporate culture expert and author of the TEDx talk "The Secret to Finding Your Ideal Workplace" — over 500,000 views and counting.
Marion's key insight: company culture is the single biggest predictor of job satisfaction and retention. Her two practical tips for evaluating culture before you accept a job offer:
- Observe the recruitment process — the speed and quality of communication during hiring tells you a huge amount about how the company operates internally.
- Ask the right questions — ask about company values and how they're lived day-to-day. A great question to try: "What kind of people get promoted here?"
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Office cliques: "I've been at my company for a while and I'm starting to feel disconnected from the inner circle. What do I do?"
- Feedback uphill: "I've just started a new managerial role and one of my team members has way more experience than me. How do I give them feedback without it blowing up?"
- Silent surveys: "I'm a business owner and my anonymous employee surveys aren't getting honest feedback. What am I doing wrong?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create awesome workplaces.
Al ElliottYes, we are. We are back in the full swing of September. We're trying to make the most of this fresh start effect, which we talked about last week. We're back to bringing you 2 episodes a week. So Tuesday, that's today. This is our This Week in Work episode, where we bring you the top news from the world of work. And our world-famous weekly workplace surgery. For September, we're also bringing you insights from established and emerging thought leaders in our segment Fresh Voices— Leanne's idea, love it— some fresh ideas to get you motivated for the month ahead.
Leanne ElliottAnd our Thursday episodes are back. Hooray! It's all about our expert guests. Last week we brought you an interview with Ed Williams, CEO of Candy Kittens, a business he founded with his partner Jamie Lang, off of Made in Chelsea and McVitie's fame. It was a Great conversation. If you haven't heard it yet, go and check it out.
Al ElliottSo that is episode 125. This is episode 126, This Week in Work. I believe it's your favourite time of the week, Lee.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it is my favourite time of the week, Al. It's time for the news roundup. Cue the jingle.
Al ElliottConsider it cued. Lee, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottWell, it seems we're in a season of, um, of new workers' rights. So I can't remember if it was last week, a couple of weeks ago, we reported on the Australian government bringing in the right to disconnect law. Um, and this week we've got a major story coming out of the UK that could also change the way millions of people work. So workers are set to gain the legal right to request a 4-day work week under a new law expected to be rolled out this autumn. The idea is pretty straightforward: employees will be allowed to compress their hours, working the same number of hours in 4 days instead of 5. There's always a catch, isn't there?
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo under these new rules, companies will be legally required to consider these requests unless they can prove it's not reasonably feasible. This shift is being championed by Deputy Prime Minister Angela Rayner.
Al ElliottThat's the Raver. Angela Raver from NBC.
Leanne ElliottAngela Raver. Good for you, girl. Um, so yes, championed by her in close consultation with trade unions and businesses, but not everyone is thrilled about it. The Conservatives, unsurprisingly, aren't a fan. They're warning that this move could hurt businesses, make operations more expensive, and lower productivity. Kevin Hollinrake, who is now the Shadow Business Secretary, a Conservative, has voiced concerns, saying that businesses are petrified of these new day-one flexible working rights.
Al ElliottCome on, Kev.
Leanne ElliottCome on, Kev. So while critics argue that the new laws could slow economic growth, Labour sources are fighting back. They point out that flexible working could actually improve productivity and job satisfaction, especially for parents and caregivers. In fact, compressed hours could be the key to keeping more people in the workforce, especially those with caregiving responsibilities. What does it mean in practice? Well, it isn't just about working from home, it's about giving employees the power to restructure their work week. So yeah, working longer hours Monday through to Thursday, having Fridays free for the weekend, or however you choose to structure it, Sounds, sounds good. Does it? I don't know. The real test will see how it's all going to be rolled out. But Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottThe tradition, if you go back to one of our episodes, and I can't remember which one it is, but it's about the 4-day work week, and we had the world expert on there, and he was saying it's not about compressing everything 5 days into 4. It's about doing 4 days worth of work in 4 days, and that's it. So this, I can see this is good, but then also I can't see what Kev The shadow education business minister, whatever his name, whatever his position is.
Leanne ElliottBusiness secretary.
Al ElliottBusiness secretary. I can't, I can't see his point here because how is it possibly going to affect someone if they— someone does the work of 5 days in 4 days? Of course, there's things like, uh, perhaps production shift workers where you can't work any faster. There's things like perhaps emergency services. Those are things where you have to work a certain number of days to cover. But in the majority of businesses, I can't see how this is not going to work. The only thing I can see is that it doesn't sound a lot, doesn't sound that fair to the employee having to work, squeeze everything into 4 days. But that could be the trade-off. And it's unlikely someone was gonna come in, a government was gonna come in and say straight away, oh yeah, yeah, we're just chopping a day off the work week. The other flip side of this is from a kind of a greater economic idea is that there'll be 3 days of leisure. So potentially 1 extra, a third extra spending, which could potentially boost our economy, which at the moment in the UK, I think like most around the world, is a bit dogshit.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBut, uh, that's my thoughts. Lee, what about you?
Leanne ElliottSame, same. I mean, I think that the research that we have seen from the, the trials, um, is based on people working a 4-day work week, being paid for 5 days, working the hours of 4. And that has shown massive benefits both for employees and employers in terms of productivity, in terms of improved mental health, physical health. It is I mean, it's— there's an infinite number of positive outcomes for employees and also for employers from this pilot study run by Joe O'Connor and his team. We will leave a link to that episode in the show notes. I think this just sounds a classic kind of the what being disconnected from the why.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWhat do people want? A 4-day work week. Cool, then just let them work their hours in 4 days. That's a 4-day work week. No, that's not a 4-day work week. That's not what the research is telling us. So yeah, I'm the same. I think, I don't know, I want to be optimistic about it and say it's a step in the right direction. I personally have worked a 4-day work week for an organization, and I was frustrated that my pay wasn't reflected the same because I was essentially doing the work in 4 days. So again, I appreciate for, particularly for, um, for parents, it could be a really good way to make sure you're actually getting paid for the work that you're doing. I worry that in practice it might be a bit tricky and have a bit more of an impact on productivity, performance, and employee wellbeing in a negative way than, than perhaps Angela has, um, fully thought through. But anything around flexibility is a good thing. I think it, as all these things, it'll come down to the implementation. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottThere is a whole thing going on at the moment on social media that we need to talk about. It's based on this question: What makes a founder different from a manager? So some people say it's the title. Some people say it's the position on org charts. Some people say it's more fundamental than that. The question is all over X or Twitter or whatever you want to call it. Twix. It's all called— and it's basically the idea is it's founder mode versus manager mode. Have you come across this, Lee?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottOkay. So the idea is that everything that leaders thought they knew about leadership as a company when it's growing is wrong.
Leanne ElliottWell, I could have told you that.
Al ElliottWell, Paul Graham, who you've probably come across, he's one of the cleverest chaps behind the Y Combinator. Brian Chesky, the co-founder of Airbnb, have been talking about this. And if you look over X and you— I messed a bit, probably it's just my algorithm, but every third, every third post is around this founder mode. And they've hit on this idea that you don't necessarily need to transition from founder mode as you grow. So they reckon that founder mode isn't just a phase. So it's not like the first 2 or 3 years of your startup. It's actually a mindset. It's how founders approach their company, especially when that At the early stages. And the whole idea of founder stage is you're deeply emotionally invested in every single detail. It's hands-on, it's personal, and usually very messy. So founders in this mode don't just delegate. They're still in the trenches, they're still doing the work, they're still making sure every piece of the puzzle they've designed in their head fits just right. And they're driven by something deeper than profit. They're driven by their vision. So in this mode, they refuse to let go of the reins, even when Everyone else around them is telling them to do that. Why? Because their company isn't just this machine. It's not a company anymore. At this point, it's their baby. Now contrast that with manager mode, and this is where most people think a company should evolve as it scales. So maybe you're like year 3, year 4, you should be moving from founder mode to manager mode. And so you hire senior leaders, you delegate, you trust the people you brought in to get the job done. So your idea is then that you should be stepping back and managing from a distance. So the conventional wisdom says that's how you grow a company. But here's the kicker. What if that's the wrong approach? What if stepping back too soon actually kills the heart of the company? People are saying is in manager mode, the soul of the company can get lost. The mission starts to feel a bit less tangible, I suppose, and suddenly the founder's vision becomes a bit diluted. So Paul Graham describes this as the moment when companies lose their way. So founders, when they're in manager mode, often feel like they're handed over the keys to something precious, only to watch a load of people basically destroy it. So in this recent interview, Brian Chesky was explaining that as Airbnb grew, and it grew pretty quickly if I remember, he was constantly told to step into manager mode at Airbnb. He was told he just needed to focus on the high-level strategy, delegate things, just be a manager. But every time he tried it, something felt off for him. He realised that when he stayed in founder mode, he was more connected to the people, the product, the vision of the company, and it made all the difference. Here's what seems to be true. The best leaders never lose sight of the objective, and they don't pander to these outside influences telling them what to do. VC funding is a perfect example of this. VCs will come in and say, right, you are now in manager mode, so you should be manager mode, so you should be recruiting people to do the work for you. Don't you be down there programming. But I mean, you think about the idea of Facebook and, uh, and old Zuck, he was still coding stuff way, way, way into what should be manager mode. But even as companies grow, even as they scale, If you're in founder mode, you stay connected to what makes it your company. You're in the room when the big decisions are made. You're not afraid to get hands-on. You're not afraid to keep that fire burning. So here's the question, Lee. From a psychological point of view, founder mode, that's when you're still doing the work and you're probably, I would've thought, heading towards burnout if you're not already almost there, versus manager mode where potentially you're losing control of everything. How does one compare to the other in terms of your, your sustainability or your resilience, your reason? What's your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottMy thoughts are it doesn't necessarily have to be absolute. It's always one or the other with these influences, isn't it? I have to be founder mode, I have to be management mode. You can do both concurrently. It's more, I think, about what founder activities are still needed as your company grows, you want disruption, but you probably don't want operational disruption. You probably want disruption in terms of the product or the services or the marketing or the sales strategy or the— in terms of vision, of course, yeah, you founders should always be there no matter how big a company grows to provide that vision, that reason why people should be excited to get out of bed in the morning. I think it's more, you know, who was it that said it? You usually say it a lot, Al, that That kind of— the more success doesn't mean having less problems, it just means having better quality problems.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think it's the same thing. I think, I think, yes, there will be pressure from VCs to, to transition out some of the, the lower value-add activities, the more transactional activities. And I think overall that's probably right, particularly as well in terms of people. People need that stability as a company grows. Startups are a unique organizational environment that that has a shelf life once an organisation grows. So, yeah, I think I understand the pressures. I understand the pushback. My thought would be it doesn't have to be absolute, as long as you're doing the stuff that is still providing the vision, providing excitement, providing the innovation, the scrappiness, whilst removing your entrepreneurial and perhaps more happy risk-taking behaviours away from the day-to-day activities where people do actually need some form of stability.
Al ElliottYeah, I think what also concerns me a little bit about this is it might give people an excuse to micromanage. They might go, I'm not micromanaging, I'm in founder mode.
Leanne ElliottYep. And I'm not going to lie, entrepreneurs love that because entrepreneurs are typically extroverted, you know, a bit more self-focused perhaps. Was it John Amici that was like, when you talk about bringing your whole self to work, that didn't give you permission to be an asshole? I think it's the same with founder mode. It doesn't give you permission to be an asshole. If that's vocabulary you want to use to think about your activities and how you're adding value to your business at each point of its growth, cool. Doesn't mean you can be an asshole.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. If, if you haven't seen the series on HBO called Silicon Valley, it's really, really funny to watch. And you'll see a lot of the ideas that Leanne talks about actually in there. They're very, very cleverly written. Talking of Leanne, Lee, is there anything else you've seen this week?
Leanne ElliottYes, I saw an article on the BPS. That's the British Psychological Society website. And they gave us 19 science-based hacks to improve your life. So it's one of those lists that you always see on like, on like magazines and stuff, but this is actually science-backed, BPS-backed. So if you are feeling a little sluggish going into September, then maybe this will give you some actionable and evidence-backed inspiration. Al, I'm not going to go through all 19. Who has the time? But why don't you— we'll make a little game. You pick a number between 1 and 19 And we'll do a little improve your life lottery.
Al Elliott10.
Leanne ElliottNormalise not knowing stuff.
Al ElliottOh, what a good choice, Al.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, so it says, and this is directly taken from the article, struggling with imposter syndrome? There are several techniques you can use to tackle feeling not quite good enough, and Dr. Hayley Lewis shared 6 of these in her recent BPS webinar. Complete coincidence, that was a random thing, but Hayley Lewis was on the show a few weeks ago. Um, so yes, Hi, hi, Dr. Haley. So how about taking a leaf out of Nobel Prize-winning physicist Richard Feynman's book, who celebrated the fact he didn't know everything and kept a pad titled Notebook of Things I Don't Know About to keep abreast of them? Turning not knowing into a challenge rather than something to be ashamed of sounds good to us.
Al ElliottI love that. I love the idea of the Notebook of Things I Don't Know. There's also something— I think that's the US Army who say there are known Known unknowns and unknown unknowns or something, and then unknown knowns. Like, it gets a little bit weird after that. And I think that, yes, it's, it's important to understand that there's an awful lot of things you know nothing about, and then there's an awful lot of things that you know something about. And then the ones— and then this scale, I can't remember what scale it is. Is it Dunning-Kruger, where you, you get to a point where you know enough to think you know everything, and then you hit this valley and you go, oh, I knew nothing. And the more you learn about something, something you might— I knew nothing. Let's not all be smartasses. Let's all just go, I don't know anything about that. And do you know what? That's a phenomenal way to have a conversation with someone, whether it's someone who works for you, like reports to you, someone above you, whether it's a customer, a client, whoever, a supplier, and say, I don't know anything about that. Tell me about it. Because it's this law of reciprocity, or whatever that word is. And also it builds rapport. But also the fact is you're just— it's something in sales called a damaging admission. And if you can make a damaging admission in sales, you're more likely to look human and more likely for someone to buy something from you. So I am 100% behind Dr. Haley and Reichman. What was his name?
Leanne ElliottUh, Richard Feynman.
Al ElliottRichard Feynman. Yes. Well done, Mr. Feynman.
Leanne ElliottLet's do another one.
Al ElliottOh, okay. Okay. Uh, what about number 15?
Leanne ElliottNumber 15. 15. Instead of wrestling with anxiety, accept it.
Al ElliottOh, this is a good one.
Leanne ElliottSo the article says the feeling of anxiety is a necessary sensation that humans need for survival. However, when it gets in the way of our enjoyment of life, it can be useful to seek help. So Dr. Kiran Schnack— I genuinely think that's how you say it— say it, S-C-H-N-A-C-K.
Al ElliottCan I have, uh, 2 coffees? And I'll take— oh, I'll take one of those Kieran Schnack's as well, please, if you don't mind. Yeah, they look nice.
Leanne ElliottSorry, Dr. Kieran. So Dr. Kieran Schnack, clinical psychologist and author of 10 Times Karma: Beat Anxiety and Change Your Life, says there are some practical exercises that we can all apply to help reduce anxiety. One of these is acceptance, which involves acknowledging and allowing uncomfortable thoughts, feelings, and physical sensations to exist without attempting to control or eliminate them. Dr. Schnack explains—
Al ElliottI'm sorry, Dr. Schnack. It's just the best name.
Leanne ElliottDr. Schnack explains, acceptance also demonstrates that when we embrace these inner experiences, their distressing impact gradually fades.
Al ElliottI love this. Thank you, Dr. Schnack, for those bite-sized pieces of knowledge for us there.
Leanne ElliottLittle nuggets of wisdom. Do you know what this is inspiring me, Al? I want, like, I want, you know how you can get things with like daily affirmations or daily lessons that are in a jar or in a calendar? I want like 52 of these little nuggets, one for each day.
Al ElliottWisdom snacks.
Leanne ElliottWisdom snacks, if you will. Um, I'm gonna get in touch with all my psychology friends and see if this is an idea. Don't steal it.
Al ElliottI love it. Anxiety as well. I mean, there's, there's a difference between anxiety, crippling anxiety, and anxiety. Anxiety generally— I'm not a psychologist, so it's just my thought— anxiety generally means that there is a gap between what you want to achieve and what you have achieved. And therefore, that's usually good. It's a bit of a stretch. That's why I talk about stretch goals. So, um, I can see you definitely embracing anxiety. Of course, the normal things says if you've got anxiety which is overwhelming you or stopping you from doing anything, that is a different thing, not necessary to embrace, perhaps something to go and speak to a specialist about.
Leanne ElliottYeah, a really great article, I must say, from, from the BPS there, and, and some really good, good little nuggets. There's ones on keeping it dream diary, writing a to-don't list, and volunteering. It's really good. I'll leave a link in the show notes.
Al ElliottWell done, BPS. I've had a little scan through your magazines before, and normally, to the layperson, they're a bit dull, but this is good. I like this. I like this. Good work. Well done, BPS. Okay, after this very, very short break, we'll be back with part 2 of our segment on Fresh Voices, and of course, the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery. Do not go anywhere, or I will get in my car, I will find you, Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast—
Leanne Elliottthat's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna see that on Truth, Lies and Work. Say, with Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. This is our September segment. I'm calling it Fresh Voices, where we showcase the thought leaders that have caught our attention and share their insights on the modern workplace. Today we are introducing Marion Campan.
Al ElliottOh, nice accent.
Leanne ElliottThank you.
Al ElliottWhere's she from? Is she from Germany?
Leanne ElliottShe's from— um, do you know what? She's not. And she's also not from where you think she's from. You'll have to listen to the video to, uh, to find that out. Um, but I believe that's how you say her name based on, on her video. But Marion is a corporate culture expert whose TEDx talk, The Secret to Finding Your Ideal Workplace, has garnered over 5 100,000 views already. I think it was only released the back end of last year.
Al ElliottGood work, Marion.
Leanne ElliottSo yes, in the current job market, it is, it is tricky times. Many people are asking, should we prioritize salary? Is it all about job title? Or is it more about the kind of work that we'll be doing? But what Marion offers is something different. She suggests focusing on company culture. Recent studies do support this shift in sentiment, with research showing that culture is becoming a key factor in job satisfaction and retention, and also why a candidate will choose a job in the first place. So here is a 2 to 3 minute clip where Marion shares how to evaluate company culture before accepting a job offer. So if you're thinking about these 2 job positions that you have, and you're thinking about which one should you choose, and if you're looking at corporate culture, You might find it hard to know from the outside what it is going to be like to work in that company. Most people think that it is impossible to know beforehand what a company culture is going to be like before you work there, right? How are you going to know before you go to Japan what the culture in Japan is really like? Well, I disagree with this, and in my sharing today, I would like to share with you 2 different ways for you to figure out what a company culture is going to be like beforehand, because that's going to avoid you signing a contract that you're going to regret down the line. I think most people don't follow those 2 tips that I'm going to share, and the numbers show. Gallup has run a study on the state of workplace worldwide, and I've pulled the number for East Asia, and the numbers are dreadful. Overall, there is only 17% of people who are engaged in their work. That means about 80% are not. When people are not engaged, then they tend to want to leave and go somewhere else. More than half of them want to quit. And if they can't quit because maybe the marketplace is not that great, what happens is people are starting to be quiet quitting. That means they're coming to work, but really they do the bare minimum. not to get fired. For employees and employers, this is dreadful numbers. And I like to take those numbers and bring them to reality. What does that look like, really? And I'll give you an example of a coaching client a couple of years ago who is a lawyer. Let's call her Junita. And Junita is an awesome lawyer. She's really great at what she does, but she didn't want to end up in a law firm. She found it a bit boring. She wanted something more exciting and fancy. So she ended up in a startup. But after a few months, she just realized, this is not the right fit here. You see, Junita really, really likes things done well. She likes to take her time and double-check. But she's surrounded with entrepreneurs and startuppers, people who want to go fast and break things. So there were a lot of tensions between her and the rest of the team. So very quickly, after a few months, she just burnt out professionally. She was questioning herself as a lawyer. She was questioning herself as an individual. She was questioning herself. Why is it that I can't fit in here? So we worked together and she moved to a more traditional workplace culture where she saw that people were behaving a little bit more like her and shared her work ethics. That's where she really thrived in her job. And this is what I wish to every single one of you, is to experience a place, an environment that brings not the worst but the best out of you. So basically that you don't look like her. So how are you going to do that? Know that a place is going to be good for you. Basically, you're asking me, how can I do to know that a thing is going to be good before I experience it myself. Well, I think you're doing this on a daily basis. For instance, have you ever checked for a restaurant's rankings and comments before you go? You're checking, you're trying to see what it's gonna be like. It's a really great talk and some really practical advice in there. A key takeaway for me: observe the recruitment process, how anyone treats you during hiring, is a reflection of their internal culture. Psychologists and recruiters call this the candidate experience. It's a massive focus of all the recruitment campaigns and processes that I create because it really is a cornerstone of a great company culture. For more thoughts on that, go back and listen to episode 74 with Nora Burns, The Undercover Candidate. We talk about this at length.
Al ElliottIt's a really Really good episode. Um, and there's also Go Back to Employer Brand with David. Uh, that's just about, I think about 115, I think you'll see. Uh, and that's a really good one to look at as well. We were on a pod called Surf and Sales and they asked us, um, how do you, how would someone who was looking to go work for a, for a sales job, how would you get an idea of the workplace culture there? And my suggestion was, why don't you just ring them up and pretend to be a customer and see how the salesperson deals with you on the course, on the call?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBe slightly awkward, but not horrible, but slightly awkward, and just see how it works. Because you'll soon get an idea of whether they're enjoying their job, whether they want to talk to you and want to sell something to you, or whether they're just going through the motions. If they're going through the motions, it's probably not the best, the best job for you. Unless, of course, you just want a job where you phone it in, or they phone into you.
Leanne ElliottSo, uh, that's a lot of phones involved.
Al ElliottThat's a lot of phones. If you've got a job on the phone, then yeah, just go for someone who phones it in. But that was That was my advice.
Leanne ElliottYeah, do you know what? Go and listen to the episode. I'll also leave a link to that in the show notes. I was on form that day and came up with some absolute nuggets.
Al ElliottWhy can't I be in form on our own podcast?
Leanne ElliottIt's a question I ask regularly. Um, but yes, Marion's advice is, as I said, very practical, very timely for anyone deciding between job offers. Go and check it out. I will leave a full link to the video in the show notes.
Al ElliottOkay, it's that time of the week that is my favourite time of the week. It's time for our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Quick reminder, Leanne's a chartered occupational psychologist. Fancy, fancy. Who's also managed teams across the world. So she's an expert in workplace culture. So you'd hope she knows what she was talking about.
Leanne ElliottYou'd hope.
Al ElliottYou'd hope. Let's find out.
Leanne ElliottIf I don't know stuff, I'll tell you I don't know.
Al ElliottYou ready for question number 1?
Leanne ElliottSure.
Al ElliottHi, Leanne. This is, this is already informal. I like it.
Leanne ElliottHiya, you alright?
Al ElliottHi, Leanne. I've been— this is obviously a long-term listener who knows why I call you Leah.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottHi Leah, I've been at your— at my company for a while now, and we started to feel a bit disconnected from the team. There seems to be this inner circle, a small group that's always in the loop and making decisions while the rest of us feel left out. I don't want to create any tension, but this is affecting how I feel about work and my workplace. How can I handle feeling excluded or disconnected from the office clique without making things awkward or damaging my relationships with my coworkers?
Leanne ElliottHmm, this is tricky. This is tricky, tricky, tricky, because there's, there's, there's just colleagues and peers here, isn't there? There's no kind of, kind of even hierarchy we can draw on. Um, really tricky. First of all, I think it's totally normal that you are feeling a bit isolated and starting to feel a bit disconnected from work. I mean, our relationships with colleagues and positive relationships with colleagues are one of the key drivers of employee engagement. So if we start to lose that, then we are going to start to disconnect from our work emotionally. We're going to lack that sense of belonging. We're going to start to feel like— well, all sorts of things will start creeping in if you're in that situation. You might start to lose some of your confidence, some of your self-esteem. It's not a great position to be in, and the longer you're in that position, it can then seep into other aspects of your life. So, it is a problem worth looking into. What's tricky is that, as I said, there's no kind of management supervisor role here that you can lean on or that you have necessarily the power to look into. I think at this point, what I would focus on is Yes, positive relationships, key driver of employee engagement. What the research actually shows us is that in terms of our work, our performance, our productivity, and actually our overall general mental health, it's all about civility. As long as we're civil to each other, then that's good enough in terms of working relationships at work and seeing those benefits from them. If any of this ever tips into something more, bullying-type behaviours, they're excluding you from decisions that you should be involved in as part of your role, then that is something you should escalate to your manager or somebody in HR. Until that point, did they say they're being excluded from important decisions or just kind of, is it office gossip?
Al ElliottIt's just general office-ness. Office-ness, is that a word? They're being excluded from that. But also, there are key decisions being made in this core team that they aren't in the loop in. Now, what it doesn't say— and, and, and again, if I might go back to the person who wrote this and ask them a bit more information, maybe come back to it in another week— what it doesn't say is whether this inner group is in charge of making the decisions.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottBut it just feels to me a lot like, you know, like Mean Girls or these sort of the '90s comedies films where there's the cool kids, like Grease. There's the cool kids and then there's the not cool kids. And then there's people who are just excluded from all of that. That's what it feels like to me.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And you know what, if you think about— if you think about Mean Girls, nothing changed unless there was— until there was a solid reset from the teachers, essentially, in terms of what was acceptable behavior and what wasn't. So without that cultural reset, this is just going to continue. So I think all you can do is really see whether it is a question of civility or bullying and harassment. That's a— that's a line that only you will know with what's going on. If it is tipping into bullying and harassment, you should report that. You should escalate that, um, either with the people that you feel are treating you negatively, if you feel able to do so, or with your manager or somebody from HR. It sounds like if, if there's decisions being made that are impacting your role, having that conversation with people, asking when these decisions were made, could they keep you in the loop of any emails that are going on, any meetings— I guess it's making sure that you're doing everything within your role and responsibility to be in the room, so to speak, when these conversations, decisions are being made. Again, if you're being excluded from those and you're doing everything you can to get in and you're still being excluded, then again, it's a potential escalation point. If it's preventing you from doing the work that you need to do, that then becomes a manager issue. It's not an interrelationship issue, it's a work-related problem. Um, otherwise, I mean, you said you've been in Um, organization for a while. What I'd say is that unless with some kind of, as I said, cultural reset, behavioral reset, this clique isn't going to go anywhere. Or unless one of them does and, and that group then goes through, through that reforming stage, um, to kind of build itself again and its, its behavioral norms again, then it's not going to change. So it might also be thinking about, is it— how much do I care at this point about this role, about this company, about trying to, to work my way through these interpersonal challenges, because it's going to be tough and it's going to be uncomfortable. And if you want to talk about a specific example, then do write in again, or, um, or set up a call with me, drop me an email, and we'll kind of talk about how to navigate through that. But unless you're in a position where the job is really worth investing this energy in to figuring out these, these interpersonal relationships. Um, I guess you've got to ask yourself if it's worth putting yourself through it. Maybe just start to— it's time to start looking around.
Al ElliottYeah. And I think I'd probably add to that. I mean, basically, our biggest— one of our biggest human fears is ostracization from the herd, from— and that's why that drives so much of our human behavior. Again, I'm not a psychologist. It's just what I've learned from my lovely wife and co-host. Um, and so it sounds very much like you're being excluded. Which is obviously very hurtful. Now, if that's happened on in set to you several times in a row in several different workplaces, then that's less about the environment potentially, more about perhaps how you how you come across to people, perhaps how you act. And I'm not putting the blame on you by any stretch, but you know it's it's a two-way thing. If you think about it in school, if there's always going to be the cool kids, and I was never one of the cool kids. I was the one who was like everyone took the mickey out of. But there was always the cool kids, and it's like. There are there was always some people managed to break into that, and it's interesting to see how they did it. And often you'll see, for example, sex education is a thing on Netflix, which is that's the entire thing is essentially about herds and herd mentality. And the way that people break into the cool group is usually just finding one person who's sort of not necessarily the weak link in the arm or chink in the armor, but just finding someone who you can build a relationship up with, and they. can vouch for you. And that could be a potential way. But as I say, I think the best thing to do is to jump on a call with Leanne, because this sounds like a bit more of a hefty subject than just going, do these 3 things and all the cool kids will like you again. You could do a Grease and just burst into song, see if that makes a difference.
Leanne ElliottI think we just need some specifics around this, don't we? I mean, yeah, you're not wrong, Al. It could be a pattern that this person's gone through, and that might need some reflection about whether it is their colleagues because all of it is this individual. It comes down to, you know, culture. Culture is defined by the worst behaviors tolerated. Apparently the worst behaviors tolerated in this culture are excluding people from, you know, decision-making processes that potentially impact them, whether it be directly or indirectly. That's not great. Um, is it— as a person in the organization, you being able to change this culture is really, really tricky. Could you put a lot of energy into changing these interpersonal relationships? Of Well, let's switch to a new manager on question number 2, Leigh.
Al ElliottAre you ready?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottSo this person writes, I've just started a new managerial role and I'm facing a bit of a challenge. One of my team members is much older than me and way more experienced than I do. I need to give them some constructive feedback, but I'm worried it'll come off wrong or make things awkward. So how do I give feedback to someone who's more experienced than me? someone who's more experienced than me without sounding condescending or insecure?
Leanne ElliottMy thought was always, and I, I too had this situation with an older, um, member of staff who was fairly, um—
Al ElliottIs it the lady I'm thinking of?
Leanne ElliottFairly clear in how they like to work. Phenomenal member of staff, but challenging at times. I think the approach is always kind of do some exploration, have a conversation about it and build it, build it into a bigger conversation. If you bring in somebody who is very experienced and who has, you know, a lot of their confidence and self-efficacy is going to be drawn from their experience, the time they've been doing it. To have somebody younger, or even not even in terms of years, but less experienced, come to them and try and give them feedback, that's gonna naturally bring up some defenses. We don't like that. So I'd always try and make it part of a bigger conversation, like in a monthly one-to-one where you're talking about how are things going, what do you need, what can I do to support you more. Whilst we're talking about some things, here's some feedback. With that though, I'd kind of do that same wraparound with that element of feedback.
Al ElliottYou got an example?
Leanne ElliottYeah, so let's say, I mean, new processes, that's always quite a nice bit of feedback actually because it's quite direct and transactional, isn't it? But let's say they're doing things the way they always used to do it, but actually new process means they need to do it a bit differently. What I would kind of say is, is just kind of ask some questions around how are you finding the new process with X? And they might go, what new process? And you'll go, oh, okay, I'm so sorry, that hasn't been communicated properly with you, right? Okay, this is what we're doing now, this is what we need, blah blah blah. If they go, oh yeah, yeah, I'm fine, but I'm a bit confused about X X, Y, and Z. You go, right, okay, no, I understand, because actually I saw some of that in your paperwork and I thought maybe there might be a point that I just needed to help clarify for you. This is what we need to do. They'll go, great. If they go, oh yeah, it's fine, I think, you know, I'm fine with it, then it's a case of going, brilliant, I'm really glad that you've managed to adjust to it. Looking through the process, there's just some little tweaks we need to make here and there for compliance purposes, for X, why purposes. Attach the why to the what. It's not just a case of, I'd rather you do it like this. It's, it needs to be done like this so it's standardized, so it passes compliance, so it ticks the box, so we get paid. Whatever it is, um, is a, is a good way to do it. So I think my thought would always be, if this feedback is especially a correction, either in terms of process or behavior, talk around it a little bit more to understand kind of where they sit with it, they might be fully aware that they've messed up, and they might go, oh, do you know what, I've handled that really badly. And then you'll coach them through, well, how would you handle it differently in the future? Um, this is what I'd probably suggest, that was how I would have handled it. And you can talk about it around that way. And as you grow this, build this relationship with this person, and build this trust with this person, then you're going to be in a position where you'll be able to be much more direct in your feedback if and when you need to be, if it's time pressured. Um, that would be my thought. Bring it into a wider conversation, ask questions around the area to understand what their thoughts and feelings are about it, and then make some, um, suggestions or directions if it's connected directly to something compliance or process-based. Expect a little bit defensiveness, expect a little bit of backlash. Keep it polite, keep it formal. Thank them very much for their time. And when they then do that thing right in the future, praise it, recognize it. John, Amanda, whatever your name is, you nailed that. Thank you so much. That's brilliant. Love it. Thank you. I think really this is about building trust and a relationship and camaraderie with this new person, and that's going to be the foundation of everything else. My feeling is if you go in with an over-formalized process, particularly if it's not governed by the organisation, then it's gonna feel a bit forced and a bit hierarchical. I think this is more—
Al ElliottHierarchical.
Leanne ElliottIs that the right word? Yeah. I think this is more, I think this is more basically a one-to-one manager coaching-based conversation.
Al ElliottSomething which I've learned from Leanne very much is that your job as a manager is not to catch people doing bad work, is to help people produce great work. And that is the crux of it. And so if you go in with the right mindset, not going, I've got to go in and bollock this person because they've done something wrong, to go in there and go help. Say, most people want to create great, great work. They want to do things right. And so your job is to help them to do that. Lee, a fabulous one. We are, we are way over time on this one. So I've, I've got one which might— I think this last question is going to be a really easy one for you. So I've been running my company for a few years now, and one thing that's bugging me is how to get Real honest feedback from my employees about their engagement and satisfaction at work. I've tried the anonymous surveys, but I feel like people are still holding back. Either the responses are overly positive or they're vague. I want to know what's really going on so I can make improvements, but without making anyone uncomfortable. How do I get my team to open up?
Leanne ElliottRight. I feel, have you been listening at all? Honestly. Right, friend. Okay, employee engagement. First of all, externally led. You need somebody else to come in and assure them on that confidentiality and anonymity. If they don't have that, they're not going to answer honestly. And if they're not answering honestly, that data is pretty much useless. It might be that they are that happy and they, you know, things are positive. Cool. But you need a third party to come in, and you need a third party who knows what they're doing, AKA AKA a psychologist like me. Second, it's all about the tool.
Al ElliottThe tool.
Leanne ElliottThe tool, the survey that you're using, it needs to be a predictive— or the, the model sitting behind the survey needs to be a predictive model of employee engagement. What that means is we ask the questions that, that we know drive positive employee engagement and result in positive attitudes and behaviours that are also observable within the business, we can then connect what's— what people are thinking and feeling with how they're performing, and also what you can do to control it. So, it's part of a— it's, it's part of a, a something that you can push and pull and, and, and really get your hands around in terms of knowing, right, if I invest a bit more in relationships, then I'm going to see this uptick in terms of attitudes and this uptick in, in terms of performance. That's That's what a really great survey will enable you to do. Not all questions are created equal. That sounds silly, but there are psychologists and statisticians who will spend their life's work just creating questions and validating these questions to make sure they're measuring exactly what they're meant to measure. This is a science. It's not SurveyMonkey. It's a science. So you need to be sure what that, that model of engagement is behind it. And finally, follow it up. You know, you still might not get the most, um, well, you don't know how honest they're going to be unless you, unless you follow up. If a survey— survey is quantitative data, right? It's numbers. We're only going to have percentages essentially of how people feel. Follow up with some listening events, with some focus groups, with, um, yeah, you know, this is, this is a, this is a result that we had. So let's, for example, 70% of people said we put profit over people. Does this represent what you think as a group? Who agrees with this? Who doesn't? Why is that? What have you seen that makes you think and believe that within the organisation? Because there's going to be your truth as the business owner, there's going to be their truth as the employee, and then there's going to be the actual truth somewhere in the middle. So you're going to have to dig into it. Um, it's really cool that you want to dig deeper and not just kind of hear what what maybe they, they want you to hear. Um, but I think this is the thing, it's like anything, you know, how do I, how do I save more tax? So I've filled out all the questionnaires online, but I still can't figure out how to do it. No, of course not. You engage a tax specialist. It's a specialist thing. It's human behavior. If you really want to dig into it, engage a specialist with the proper tools, the proper questions, the proper survey, and the proper Totally, totally agree.
Al ElliottObviously, we have our own survey called the RX7, which you can get in touch with. This isn't about selling that, uh, but if you are interested, then, uh, links from the show notes, which is developed by a psychologist who's sitting opposite me there. Um, but there's— that's— I think what Leanne says is key. A lot of business owners think, and myself included before we started doing all this, um, would be, oh, we'll just get a Google, Google Form, write a few questions like, are you happy? What would you change? And then, oh, you, you're doing a survey. You're not. As Leanne points out, human behavior— dealing with humans is one of the most complex and possibly the most complex thing you can do. There are engineers who are— who can build airplanes who probably still don't fully understand how humans work. So this is not something you can do yourself. Yes, of course you can change your own oil in your car. Yes, of course you can change your own brakes on your car. But should you? Probably not. Okay, Lee, I think that's the end. Anything you got to add before we go? No, I think that's we it. say goodbye?
Leanne ElliottI don't think so. We will be back next Thursday with another expert interview. Al, who have we got?
Al ElliottSpeaking of engagement surveys, we've got, we've got an interview with our great friends at MAP. Uh, they're one of our clients, but they've got such a great story about how they built engagement, how they've built an amazing culture, um, around hybrid through the, through the pandemic, um, after the pandemic, uh, and just 2 genuinely lovely, lovely people in Paul and Amanda. You are gonna love this because it's a case study on how to build, how to get it right, what goes wrong, and how to build an amazing workplace culture.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it really is an interesting conversation and really inspirational as well. Rapid growth story from, you know, from a handful of employees to now, you know, having just made their first acquisition last year. It's a really great founder story and a founder story and growth story that is very much rooted in people. And culture. So yeah, looking forward to bringing you that, bringing you that next week.
Al ElliottAnd if you like to keep abreast of the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt segment, then you'll— and you— and if you like today's episode, then tune in next Tuesday. We'll bring you exactly the same, more of our weekly news roundups, our September segment called The New Voices, and of course our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your question to Leanne. You know that because you just heard it. I think that's all for now, Leanne, apart from telling people to subscribe and Um, you know the deal—
Leanne Elliottsubscribe, leave a review. It's the best way to support the show. It's the best way to enable us to keep bringing you more and more episodes. We really do appreciate it. Um, so yeah, we'll see you next week.
Al ElliottBye, love you.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye. Say aunt. Yeah, you push.
Al ElliottIn work, Lee, what have you— no, no, no, I don't do that bit, do I?
Leanne ElliottExcuse me, I'm holding that in for a little while.
Al ElliottDr. Schnack.
Leanne ElliottIs that how you say it?
Al ElliottThat's the way it said Schnack. I mean, the key takeaway I thought I I, I, I, what was it?
Leanne ElliottWhat was your, what was, what was yours? What was your snack? Should we be prioritising, prioritising snack?
Al ElliottPrioritise your snacks at prioritiseyoursnacks.com.