Episode 143 · 7 November 2024 · 48:44
How a ‘bad manager’ got 100m views on social media
How a ‘bad manager’ got 100m views on social media
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Why Linda the Bad Manager resonates with millions
Why do managers behave badly?
The pub conversation and complaining about bad managers
Kate's origin story and her own management mistakes
Nurturing the other person's point of view and first-time managers
WhatsApp managers and legal implications of written communication
Inappropriate accidental inappropriateness and modelling good behaviour
other#inappropriate-behavior#role-modeling#workplace-etiquette
Writing How to Lead and Kate's final takeaway
Show notes
How a 'Bad Manager' Got 100 Million Views on Social Media
This Week on Truth, Lies & Work — Al and Leanne explore leadership through humor with Kate Waterfall Hill, creator of the viral TikTok character Linda the Bad Manager. With over 100 million views and 200,000 followers, Linda hilariously illustrates the common pitfalls of management while raising awareness about poor leadership practices. Kate shares her journey from a marketing prodigy to a leadership consultant and author of the upcoming book How to Lead, launching on November 12, 2024.
🎭 The Linda Effect: Why 100 Million People Are Watching a "Bad Manager"
Kate Waterfall Hill spent three decades in marketing and leadership before creating Linda the Bad Manager — a character so painfully recognisable that she's amassed over 100 million views across social media platforms and 200,000 followers.
Linda isn't a caricature of evil. She's the manager who:
- Books meetings over lunch breaks without thinking
- Sends passive-aggressive WhatsApp messages at 9pm
- Asks "just a quick favour" that isn't quick or a favour
- Never quite listens, but always has an opinion
And that's exactly why she's gone viral. As Leanne puts it: "People either recognize it in themselves and slightly cringe and say, 'oh, maybe I'm being a bit like that,' or they've had a manager exactly like that."
The comedy works because the truth lands. We've all worked for Linda — or worried we might be becoming her.
🧠 What Makes a "Bad Manager" (and How to Avoid Becoming One)
Kate's core insight? Most bad management isn't malicious — it's thoughtless. And the fix starts with a simple habit.
"Take a beat" — Kate's number one piece of advice for leaders. Before you send that message, book that meeting, or fire off that email, pause for a hot second and think about how you want the other person to feel.
The conversation digs into:
- The "answer trap" — first-time managers are promoted because they have the answers, but leadership is about nurturing other people's points of view, not just being right
- Frameworks over instinct — Kate works with managers on structured approaches to coaching conversations (presenting three options, then asking for a preferred solution) rather than defaulting to command-and-control
- The WhatsApp problem — informal messaging channels create a minefield of accidental inappropriateness, and yes, written messages can be used in a tribunal
- People do what they see — you can write all the policies you want, but your team will copy your behaviour, not your handbook
📖 More From Kate Waterfall Hill
- Learn more about Kate: Waterfall Hill
- Follow Kate on TikTok: @katewaterfallhill
- Pre-order Kate's book How to Lead: Book Information (ebook available now)
💬 The Bit You Can't Unhear
Al and Leanne also get into why people complain about bad managers in the pub — and it's not always what you think. Sometimes it's about the manager. Sometimes it's about the complainer not seeing themselves as someone who could step up. Either way, the conversation is a masterclass in understanding the psychology of workplace gripes.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more. Nice.
Al ElliottCheck out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. I've got a, I've got a question here from one of our people who's written in. Um, this is, uh, this is from a CEO of a law firm, and this is what they said. I introduced mental health days because I read somewhere they were a very good idea. But now, everyone seems to be suffering from these so-called mental health issues, and people are actually taking days off all over the shop. How am I going to stop them from taking time off? The team's getting more behind.
Leanne ElliottWell, more fool you, frankly. I mean, what on earth were you thinking about putting them in in the first place? Mental health. I mean, we've all got brains, haven't we? And as far as I'm aware, work's always been hard. I mean, I've been working for 30 years, and you don't catch me taking any time off. So, I think just Cancel the whole Mental Health Day idea. Say it's been a mistake and you want them back in the office forthwith. I hope they're back in the office 5 days a week, by the way. You're not doing any of this working from home nonsense. Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottOf course, it's Thursday today, so this is our regular Thursday interview series. If you like to keep up to date with the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt segment, then you're going to love Tuesday episodes too. We bring you our weekly news roundup, our brand new segment called Hot Takes, which is where we bring out our bank of workplace experts, and of course our world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Talking of which—
Leanne ElliottThat's me.
Al ElliottThat's you. Go.
Leanne ElliottCan I go now?
Al ElliottIt's your bit.
Leanne ElliottToday Today we— today is exciting. Today we are exploring leadership, but not just in any old way. We're doing it through the lens of humor with one of TikTok's most viral stars. Linda the Bad Manager has got over 100 million views and 200,000 followers across social media and is the brainchild of Kate Waterfall Hill, a leadership coach and self-confessed ex-bad manager. Kate Waterfall-Hill's journey from marketing prodigy to leadership guru is anything but conventional. After joining a boutique marketing agency fresh from university in the '90s, her meteoric rise saw her become managing director by age 29, handling major accounts like Virgin and Vodafone while overseeing everything from strategy to HR. But it was her 2007 pivot to leadership consulting that would ultimately lead to her most unexpected success, the creation of Linda the Bad Manager, a TikTok character whose cringeworthy management tactics have amassed over 100 million views and 200,000 followers.
Al ElliottHaving channeled her 3 decades of experience into her first book, How to Lead, Kate has transformed her viral comedy into a serious mission, helping leaders avoid the very mistakes that she once made herself and turning bad management practices into valuable learning opportunities for all.
Leanne ElliottAl interviewed Kate a few days ago, and I was very jealous. jealous. Kate is hilarious. And just to warn your sensitive ears, a little bit sweary, but we don't mind that. So let's go and meet Kate and find out more about her alter ego, Linda the Bad Manager. My name is Kate Waterfield-Hill, as you kindly said. Um, my profession, I suppose, is a leadership coach, and I work with all sorts of leaders, but mostly CEOs and founders and leaders in small businesses, agencies, and consultancies, but actually anybody who leads a team. And I'm famous, slightly, on TikTok anyway, for a character I have called Linda the Bad Manager, who shows us how to lead by demonstrating how badly some managers do it in comedy skits and satirical videos.
Al ElliottYou say mildly famous. If I remember, it's somewhere north of 2 million views so far, maybe even 3 million.
Leanne ElliottOh, no views. 100 million views. 100 million views across all social media platforms and 200,000 followers. Yeah.
Al ElliottWell, there you go. So, you say somewhat. In a very British way, you say somewhat famous, but you're one of the most famous people we've had on here. I want to get into this, Linda, because the first question I've got is— don't tell me who, but is it based on one particular person, do you think?
Leanne ElliottUh, no, it's a little bit of me in old— in the old days. So, and also, you know, we look quite alike, as you can imagine. Um, and I slightly regret that, you know, if I'd known that it was going to take off like it did, uh, I might have given her some glasses or a wig or something. Because now when I do videos of myself, people, I quite often get comments saying, who is this? Is this supposed to be funny? And they're a bit disappointed when I'm just being, no, I'd like you to sign up to my leadership accelerator program, or here's my book, or whatever it is. So, it can be a bit confusing, but it's not based on any one particular person. I have a range of sources of inspiration. Some of it's mistakes I've made in the past. Some of it's mistakes I see happening now because I, up until recently, was consulting to lots of different businesses. So I'd be in a board meeting, and somebody would say something, and I'd get my notebook out. And then the other person would say, oh, you're going in a TikTok next week, mate.
Al ElliottWith over 100 million views, Linda the Bad Manager clearly resonates with the working population, both young and old. So I asked Kate why she thinks Linda is so popular and how she gets her ideas. I do love the way that you kind of encapsulate the— what I see a lot on Reddit or TikTok, where people complaining about HR, complaining about managers, you just seem to have just nailed it. Why does it resonate so well?
Leanne ElliottI think because people either recognize it in themselves and slightly cringe and say, oh, maybe I'm being a bit Linda, or they either work now with somebody like Linda, or they have done in the past. And sadly, there are lots of people who— most of it is sort of hapless. Not many of the things that Linda does, or that most managers do, is deliberately Negligent, mean, and nasty things. It's born out of something. Either they don't have a good role model themselves, they've never had any training themselves, they're sort of anxious for their own jobs, so they're trying to push forward their own agenda in some way. And it's often misguided rather than, as I say, negligent or malicious. So, I suppose it's just a way to raise the conversation, I suppose. And that's what I was trying to do was trying to get it to normalize saying, actually, I don't like that. And actually, to be able to have that conversation with your manager. But what I've found is lots of people, and it's almost heartbreaking, but also heartwarming in a way, that Linda has enabled people to leave their toxic environments. So, I've had lots of people message me saying, thank you for what you do. I'm not a leader, or I'm not in a position to have coaching, but I love your message, because it's actually made me realize that this toxic environment I'm working in is not okay. And that, you know, whilst we're laughing at it, actually, I'm living that, and that's not great. So, I've had people saying, I've left and started up my own business. Me and my colleague have left and started up our own businesses. I've, you know, gone somewhere else, and now I've got a really lovely manager, and I'm so pleased I did. And it's thanks to Linda, amazingly, that I took that jump. So, who knew that was going to be a side effect of it? I thought my meaningful work was going to be guiding good people to become better leaders. But actually, some of it's a byproduct I didn't even intend, which is I'm actually hopefully raising the awareness of poor leadership and poor management methodologies in the workplace and actually questioning those and saying, hey, what could we do differently? What could we do better? And what's amazing is that people watch the comedy, And then say, oh, could this person who's aware of these glitches that happen in the workplace, could she actually help me solve those? And so, 95% of my clients come from social media and they say, oh, I've seen your Linda video and I'd like to work with you. So, who'd have thought that? Because really, I was doing it for a bit of fun to start with. I'm literally drowning In suggestions. And people are— I can't do enough videos. I mean, there's literally, I guess there's probably 40 ideas I've been sent, and that's since Sunday, and we're now on Thursday. So, yeah, it's just amazing. And I've got DMs and emails, and every one I go back to saying, thank you for sharing. Did this happen to you? Yes, it happened to me. And now I've left to go somewhere different. Or, and now I got the promotion I wanted, but they handled it in a really bad way. Um, so yeah, it definitely, definitely real life. It's shocking. Whilst Kate's character Linda, the bad manager, is clearly meant to entertain, Kate has decades of experience in management, both as a young manager herself and as a leadership consultant and coach and founder of the Leadership Accelerator, the program that has helped 200 leaders become reconnected with their role. I'll ask Kate how someone might become a bad manager.
Al ElliottIf you were just a decent human being, you'd feel a bit icky about doing these. So why are people doing these things?
Leanne ElliottI think it's just lack of care and lack of thought. And it really shocks me how people treat their people at work completely differently from how they would treat them if they were friends or family.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd actually, I was talking to my mentor yesterday. We went on a dog walk, and I was saying, all of these people who are either, as a leader, you think they're underperformers, or as a team member, you think your manager's an awful manager. Those people, those sort of underperforming managers or team members, still probably have friends outside work, right? And their friends think they're a good guy or a good girl or a good non-binary person. And they hear their side of the story. So, the underperforming team member will go down the pub with their mates and say, oh, my boss is a complete... word we're not going to use.
Al ElliottWe know what you're thinking, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottAnd their mates go, oh, yeah, absolutely. He's a pillock. Why are you listening to him? But actually, there's always two sides to every story is what I'm trying to say, I suppose, in short. So, I think it's, generally speaking, unless you've got somebody who's actually a proper narcissist or a sociopath, generally speaking, people who are badly behaved, whether it's leaders or team members, are doing it for another reason. So, they've either got anxiety about their job position, there's low self-esteem, they don't have the methodologies, they don't have the communication skills. Sometimes it's about neurodiversity or about mental health or about other things going on outside work. And the sort of overall message that I share with people on my Leadership Accelerator course and in my one-to-one coaching is just to try and put yourself in the other person's position and try and think from their point of view, put yourself in their shoes. But also just take a minute. Be intentional about your interactions with people rather than just— somebody doesn't do what you want them to do, rather than just saying, what'd I do that for? Actually sort of say, oh, I noticed that you did this in this way. Can you talk me through your thinking? And see what comes up. And you might be able to solve the problem together. And that's actually not necessarily who's to blame or who's at fault, but actually maybe the process isn't quite right, or maybe you didn't delegate it terribly clearly, or there's often ways to look in the mirror to set somebody up for success rather than knock them down. So, yes, I don't think it's necessarily intentional, and sometimes it's just lack of thought. One of the biggest things I get from people is, I just don't know how to delegate terribly well. And the 2 main sort of emotions that people have with delegating are either, I feel guilty because it feels like I should be doing the job, and I want people to like me, and I think if I give them work, then they're going to think that I'm slope-shouldered in some way and not taking responsibility for the jobs that should be mine. Or they— and this is the predominant one, the second one— is they don't like the feeling of lack of control. So, if I give this to somebody else, it won't be done as well as I would've done it. It won't be done to my exacting standards. It won't be as perfect as I would like. And so, they don't like delegating, so they hold onto stuff. But of course, what got you to where you are in terms of being a manager or a leader or whatever, It won't get you to the next level. If you carry on, because most people get promoted or start their own business because they're high achievers, they're problem solvers, they get stuff done, they don't shirk. Generally speaking, that's why. They're good individual contributors. Okay, we'll give you a management job. But actually, just carrying on doing, working really hard, doing longer hours, saying yes, taking on the next project, doing stuff that's outside your job description, which gets you noticed and gets you promoted, Actually isn't sustainable long-term. You can't keep on doing that. If you're already doing 12 hours a day, what are you going to do next, 24? What's the alternative? The alternative is doing it differently. And the doing it differently is working out how to take a beat and think about being a leader, actually being intentional about being a leader, and then working out what the vision is. So, what the why is for yourself and for your team and for your team members. And then delegating. Because if you don't delegate, you're going to stay in the weeds, you're going to stay in the detail, and never be able to rise up and let your people rise up under you. And generally speaking, the people who I've coached come back to me after having the session on delegation and say, it's amazing. I was really surprised because Sue and John, who I thought were quite happy in their roles, when I said, can I have some volunteers to help me with this project? And would anybody like to support me in this task? They put their hands up, and they've been brilliant, and I had no idea. And they really enjoyed it, and I've let them have autonomy, and they feel really empowered, and they're more engaged than they were before. And I've got more time to think strategically. And funnily enough, it's a win-win. And I go, yeah, funny that. But so, in the book, there's a whole chapter on delegation, everything from why it's difficult, Why it's brilliant, why it's a good idea, and then literally how to do it. So, the questions you can ask, how to make sure people get it, because so often people who delegate will say, this is the job, and then they'll be either too specific on how to do it, and that disempowers people, or they'll give them the job to do, and the person will go, all right, okay, yeah. And the manager will say, okay, you understood, all clear? And the person will go, Yeah. Well, come and find me if you've got any questions. Yeah, will do. And of course, they don't because they're embarrassed because they think they should have understood your first brief. Maybe they fell asleep halfway through or lost concentration and didn't actually listen to everything you said and are worried that they're going to ask a question that you're going to say, I told you that when I briefed you. Or they feel like they should know the answer already, or they just don't want to disturb you because you're so busy. So, actually, a much better way of delegating is to say, right, here's the overall outcome I'd like to achieve. What's a reasonable deadline? So, actually have a conversation about the deadline. And then, once you've explained it, don't say, did you understand? And they say, yeah. You say, what's your first next step going to be? What are you going to do? And if the person goes, uh, um, They haven't understood the assignment. If they can say what their first next step is, even if their first next step is, I'm going to go away and I'm going to have a think about what you said, and then I'm going to write down a list of questions to come and ask you because I'm not quite sure I've got it all. And so, yeah, knowing what your first next step is, even if it's to have a think and write a plan and then come back and check it with you, that's okay.
Al ElliottIs it possible that they're in the pub complaining about their bad manager for 2 reasons? First of all, because it creates commonality amongst your friends and family because everyone's got a bad manager. And secondly, perhaps, is it taking the Taking the onus off them to find a job they enjoy is saying, I would enjoy this job, but it's the bad manager. That's what's making it bad.
Leanne ElliottYeah, sometimes. Sometimes I dare say it is that. And I think sometimes it's about not seeing yourself having any agency to be able to change things. So actually, it's easier to blame somebody else or blame outside forces for your situation. But actually, we all do have agency because you can Unless you're in a very particular situation where you don't have a voice, but hopefully, you do have some sort of voice. You can speak to your colleagues and say, look, let's go together to management and escalate this issue. Or you could have a conversation with your manager and say, I imagine it would be good for the organization, for the team, for us to work really well together, and you want me to be more efficient and productive. I wonder whether we could find a way of working together that would enable me to do that, because at the moment— Say, for instance, you've got a manager who's a micromanager. manager, one who's always saying, do it like this, do it like this, and how are you getting on? And is it done yet? And just is really cramping your style. And so, you lose any enthusiasm for what you're doing because you're being overmanaged. What's to stop you? And sometimes, there's fear and anxiety stopping people, but could you have a conversation with your manager to say, hey, can we have a conversation about how we work together? Because at the moment, I'm feeling stifled. And some managers won't hear it, won't listen to it, and won't have it. I get that. you know, it's worth a try. So yeah, so I think it's something about not feeling— sort of not wanting to take responsibility for the fact that they could maybe make some changes. After the break, we'll hear more from Kate about her experience managing a £5 million agency at just 29, why the world needed a new kind of book on leadership, and the legal implications of sending WhatsApp messages to your employees. See you in a sec. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Kate already has said that Linda the bad manager is based on the mistakes she made when she was a young manager. I'll ask Kate what some of her biggest mistakes as a younger manager were. I was a very young manager, so I started, um, in a marketing agency when I left university, and I got promoted really, really quickly, and I ended up being managing director of the company by the time I was 29. So, I had a lot of people who were on the board, but reporting to me, who had been there when I joined as a graduate. So, you can imagine that, trying to manage and lead people who were as old as in their 30s even.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottThey might have even been older than that. But so, yeah, so some of it was, I don't know if it was just about being young or about being inexperienced, or maybe being a woman. And I don't generally like to have any sort of gender generalizations, because everyone's different. But my way of managing back in the day was to shout. I literally would raise my voice. I'd swear an awful lot. And yeah. I'm just thinking whether or not I want to share the word I used to call people. Yeah, shall I share it? And then you can decide whether you cut it out or not.
Al ElliottAbsolutely.
Leanne ElliottOkay. So, my boss at the time, who was the founder of the agency, and he was the chairman and I was the managing director, and we had this joke that he would say, are you okay? And I'd say, yeah, I'm fine. He goes, I just noticed you haven't called anyone a fuckwit today. Oh, okay. Well, I can call you a fuckwit if you like, because you're annoying me now. So yeah, and I did have a temper and I was always sort of on the edge of being, because I was so stressed all the time because I didn't really know how to manage. Nobody taught me, I hadn't had any coaching. I did have my chairman who was a great mentor, but he had an interesting management style as well. So I really just didn't know how to do it. And I had very exacting standards, very, very highly motivated and hardworking, and I expected everyone to be the same. But as I've got older, and as I've had more experience, and as I've read more, and I've been trained more, and I've had more experience, I recognize that actually leaning into listening to other people and understanding their position, and taking a moment to plan and to be intentional about how you show up and how you influence positive behavior, rather than—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottRather than pushing to get what you want, actually to nurture the other person's point of view. And one of the things I teach on my course is conflict management, and we talk about the definition of conflict. We talk about conflict being a gap between your expectation and your experience. And so if you can make your expectation clear and align the expectation with the other person's expectation, you'll you're less likely to have a gap and you bring that closer together. If I could go back, I think I'd say to 29-year-old Kate, you can influence positive outcomes by leaning in and listening and seeing the other person's point of view and recognizing that everybody has, even if their point of view seems completely bizarre and outlandish and even factually incorrect because you know the facts somehow and they don't, Their perspective is at least 10% right because it's, it's their viewpoint where they're seeing it from. One theme that is consistent both from the 200+ guests that we've had on the podcast and from all the research around management is the number one skill that great managers share is being a great coach. Kate is an incredible coach and is adamant that using coaching to manage teams is the only way to lead properly. Let's rejoin the interview where Al asked her why coaching is so effective, and also get some great advice for new managers. But until you ask the question, you're just fighting it with your knowledge. So, it's just your perspective versus their perspective. But if you don't know what the root of it is, and it's like all coaching questions, you know, when somebody comes to me saying, you know, I'm overwhelmed with work, I've got too much on, I just don't know how to face it, actually, giving them tools And just say, and I could say, have a look in my book. But actually giving them the answers isn't necessarily the whole picture. Actually, what's more useful and why still one-to-one coaching is good, even though my book is brilliant, on its own, it won't help completely. You'd still need that human connection because you need somebody else to say to you, okay, what's underneath that? When you say you're completely overwhelmed with work, Yeah. Where's that come from? And then you find out that they've been super high achievers all their life. They've always had top marks at school and they went to the best university and now they're flying high in their job. But actually, they haven't worked— it's always been because of external validation. They've always needed that push or that influence from outside. And actually, it's sort of getting underneath the skin of that motivation of what's driving them to constantly say yes, constantly not have any boundaries, have a tendency to people-please and perfectionism. And it's only when you explore it underneath the skin that you actually get the root of it. And then you help them go, oh, actually, do you know what? I could let that go now. I don't need to run that narrative in my life permanently. I could actually choose, because I've got to the position I am, to say no.
Al ElliottIt feels like to become a first-time manager, you feel like you've been promoted because you've got the answers. The methodology you just used there was rather than someone saying, I've got this problem, You go, we'll do this. You're actually saying, what are the challenges? Why do you hold that viewpoint? Let's investigate it. How are you going to help a new manager to have the confidence to kind of go, all right, well, let's not worry about how to solve it. Let's just first of all step back and look at the actual problem.
Leanne ElliottSo, a lot of the stuff that I work with when I'm doing workshops is actually giving people some frameworks, because it really helps people have that confidence to— because, you know, I'm not being terribly articulate now, but generally speaking, I'm able to articulate myself and be able to eke out the answers from people just by speaking. But actually, new managers just haven't got that experience yet. So, having a framework can be really helpful. So, one of the frameworks I suggest with the issue that you've just identified is that your team member comes into your office and says, oh my God, it's just a nightmare. Everything's going wrong. And the new manager will be like, okay, right, okay, so I've got the issue, and here's the solution. That's what you should go and do. But actually, sometimes they identify the wrong issue and completely the wrong solution. So, a better way of answering it is saying, okay, we're going to use the 1-3-1 method. And I use these methods and these frameworks and toolkits, and I suggest to people they don't use them by stealth. They don't sort of just go, okay, we're going to use the— pretend I'm— I'm looking at my book. I'm going to nick some ideas from Kate. You actually announce it. You say, okay, let's use 131. And 131 is this, what's the one key thing? So, really specifically, we can only tackle one thing at a time, so let's look at the priority. If you could solve, you're saying everything's a nightmare, what specifically is it? And sometimes it's something like the client's complained. That can often be a thing. So, the client's complained, what can we do about it? So, that's the one. Then the 3 is the 3 options. And you ask the other person, not the manager, but the person who's bringing you the issue, what are the 3 options? The 3 options might be, we tell the client to sling their hook, we give them all their money back, or we give them something for free. We give them some added value, we work an extra week for them, or whatever.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah, nice. Okay, so you thought through some 3 potential options, and then what's your one preferred solution? So, you're giving some agency to the person who's come to you with the problem to actually identify some solutions and put forward their preferred solution. And as a manager, it's sometimes tempting to say, well, that's all very well and good, but this is what I would do. And if you can, resist the temptation to correct or amend or criticize the other person, which then makes them feel small. Actually, if you can, if it doesn't really matter too much, if it's 70% of a good answer, say, great, nice, good job. Yeah, what do you need from me? Do you need any resources? Do you need my support in any way? Or are you okay to go and do it? Fantastic. And then say, when should we check in? Don't say, come and find me if you've got any questions. Actually make an appointment.
Al ElliottOkay, let's just talk WhatsApp managers. There's a great TikTok channel by Chris O'Donnell, who's also on YouTube, who reads aloud increasingly ridiculous WhatsApp messages from bad managers to employees. Whilst this is funny and great entertainment, Kate explained that sending anything via WhatsApp can have serious legal implications.
Leanne ElliottBy the way, before we jump back into the interview, Chris, if you're listening, Kate would love to collaborate. And so would we. You should call us, get in touch. Our people will speak to your people. Kate, go. So, yeah, generally speaking, it's not advisable. And the other thing, I don't know if you were getting to it, was going to be about the methodology of those communications and how we choose which channel. And sometimes it's— I personally don't really like WhatsApp for work communications unless it's So, culturally necessary, or in some other way necessary, because to me, WhatsApp is my personal messaging tool. So, I don't want to be looking at my phone, getting a little ding on my phone, and thinking, oh, it's my friend Sally telling me some update on what's going on with her son, or whatever. Oh, no, actually, it's my boss telling me about something. Okay. And you get that anxiety, that sort of bringing yourself back into work when you shouldn't necessarily be.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, having a way of communicating with your team that's agreed at the outset is a really good idea. So, having some sort of guideline or policy to say, this sort of communication, we use Slack. This sort of communication, when it's formal and I want you to refer to it another time, it's going to be email. Where I need your immediate attention and it's a proper emergency, I'm going to use WhatsApp. So, the impact Could be, if your work tends to induce anxiety in you, if you're getting a message from Derek on a Saturday night, you get that same feeling of anxiety when you should be having that time to relax. It brings you back into that moment when you should be unwinding, because most people need boundaries to be able to refill their cup, to build their resilience, to combat the tendency for anxiety and stress in the workplace. And we need to fill it back up with positive stuff in order to be able to face the next week. So it sort of brings you back down again. And the difficulty with it is that you can't control it. It's just coming at you. Well, that's the sense people have is that they can't control it. They keep on looking at their phone. But I suppose it's about having some boundaries, as I said before, about having a policy about how you use which communication channel. But also as the recipient, if you're likely to be Upset and sent into turmoil by getting a message from Derek, is that you put some sort of out-of-office on, or you put it on do not disturb, or you say to Derek, please, can you not message me? Can you hold onto that message until Monday? Because things can be deferred, particularly emails. WhatsApp, not so easy. It tends to be a bit immediate. The other awful thing about— well, good thing and awful thing about WhatsApp is that the manager can see whether you've read it or not, can't they? They've got the blue ticks. And so, that also gives some sort of element of control back to the manager. I saw you saw my message, and yet you chose not to reply on Saturday night. That was interesting, noted in your file. Oh, I've got turned into Linda. So, yeah, I think it's in danger of becoming a power thing. And the other thing I was going to say, actually, is about context switching. The studies have shown that when you're going from writing an email, going to a meeting, trying to do something creative, trying to do something analytical, if you keep on switching, then you lose a lot of time in between. between the two different contexts. And it's sort of the same, you know, if you're with your family, you know, you're bathing your children, or you're having, you know, dinner with your spouse, and you get a message from your boss, it's sort of taking you into this different context when you, you know, you're— and it feels out of your control. So that's the danger of it, I think.
Al ElliottLet's talk about the actual legal implications here, because I believe I've got a note here that I need to talk to you about employment tribunals and WhatsApp. Is that something you know a little about?
Leanne ElliottA tiny bit about, yeah. But the short answer is, if you've got it in writing, it can be used in a tribunal. So, it doesn't matter whether it's an email, a legal letter, or a WhatsApp, it can still be used. So, the dangers of WhatsApp is because it's so quick, you're not really necessarily thinking too much about what you're writing, and it's a quip, and actually, you could be really offending somebody. You can have WhatsApp groups that exclude somebody, and that can actually be really offensive as well. lead to a toxic environment. Even if somebody sends a message which is, say somebody else in your team sends a message which is critical or offensive about somebody else, and you just give it a thumbs up or a little smiley face or whatever emoji, that can be taken as condoning that message. So, we need to be really careful here. And also emojis and shorthands, little ways of writing like my kids do. We need to be careful about that because that could be misinterpreted. Somebody's recipe for something might include— oh my God, I'm entertaining myself here. I'm thinking about eggplant. It's so interesting. And you can be innocently sending that and obviously offend the next person. So we just got to be really careful. And I do a Linda skit about Gen Zed, as she calls it, Gen Zed's terminology, and she doesn't get it. And she says, why are you writing lots of love on the end of an email, Alice? It's not really appropriate. And then Alice educates her to say, no, it means laugh out loud. And, oh, does it? Well, come and tell me some other things. And yeah, so we got to be careful, this generational thing as well. I was pleased to hear, I was supposed to I have been listening to your podcast, and I was pleased to hear that you called yourself Gen X, because we seem to be forgotten, because I'm also Gen X. It seems to be going from millennial to boomer. So, when people criticize me on TikTok, some do, some sort of say, when I'm being Linda and they haven't got the joke, they think I'm actually being— I don't know what they think I'm doing, advertising bad management in some way for a reason. And they haven't got it that it's supposed to be funny. And they say, oh, retire already, boomer. And why don't you die already, boomer, actually is the other one. And actually, the most offensive bit of that sentence to me is the boomer bit. I'm like, I'm not a boomer, I'm Gen X, get it right. If you're going to be horrible to me, just at least get your facts straight.
Al ElliottLet's talk about inappropriate, accidental inappropriateness. So there are people, let's say the people who are Gen X, who don't understand these emojis, don't understand the LOL or the BRB or the whatever it is. What precautions can employees or HR departments take to sort of like just ensure they're not opening the company up to some legal— I think the term is legal shit show.
Leanne ElliottYeah. I mean, I'm not a great fan of over-policying everything because it's all very well writing. For instance, there are lots of companies that have a DEI policy and very pleased with themselves that they've remembered to do that. But then it's actually just a couple of pieces of paper that's They just get stuck in a file or put on the SharePoint, and nobody ever looks at them. And you've actually got to live it. So, to my mind, it's not about— I mean, it's a good idea to have some guidelines, as I said before, about communication and which communication channels should be used for which types of communication. So, if you're making a formal announcement about a restructure, don't stick it in a WhatsApp. Make it a proper announcement in an email. And also, the tendency, as I said before, is to be overly casual and informal on WhatsApp. And you just got to be careful about that. So, having some sort of policy, but most importantly, it's for the leaders to role model. It's for the leaders to be actually walking the walk and talking the talk, or whatever the phrase is, and actually living it and breathing it and demonstrating it in their everyday lives. So, it's all very well to say, don't do this and don't do that and do this and do this, and then not doing it yourself as a leader. That's where it all falls down, and then you lose credibility and people—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottPeople, generally speaking, do what they see. I've had my leadership accelerator program, and I asked my group, do you use WhatsApp for communications? To see what the— just anecdotal evidence. And a few of them did. And I said, and has that worked? And have you had any negatives about that? And one of the guys who's the CEO of a small business with remote workers, and that nobody ever sees each other face-to-face, so they're all over the world, well. And he said, people don't read my emails, so I have to send them on WhatsApp. So I thought, okay, all right. So it's because it's immediate. And maybe it's because we associate WhatsApp with personal messages that we want to look at. So maybe we end up, oh, there's a WhatsApp message. Oh, it's from work. Oh, well, I'll go and look at my email now. Whereas maybe they didn't do that automatically. But that tells me something else.
Al ElliottWhat is the alternative? How are they going to fix that?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think it's probably about communication and just getting together as a team and saying, how do we do our team communication? How are we going to do it so that the things that really urgently need attention get seen? And I know one of my client companies, they had a code that they put on internal comms. If there was something that really needed looking at urgently, they would stick a word before the subject in the subject box. And there was one which was, if it was a client escalation, so say a client had complained or there was something wrong on— had gone wrong on a project, they would stick the word ESCALATE in capital letters before what was happening. And then the people knew, oh gosh, that's an escalation, right? Okay, I need to have a look at that. And easily done, you could put code red, code amber, code green, or something for whatever you— however you wanted to label it to make sure that people knew what to do. But There are so many fantastic email tools now, and the technology and the apps and everything that go with it, that we're not leaning into enough, in my opinion, that we're not using rules, for instance. They've been around for ages, haven't they? You could easily do a rule that said, if it was this, then it would be highlighted, or you could tag it so it says it's important. But it's about having a conversation about being intentional about it, getting the group's buy-in to it. There are some communications that really need urgent attention.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottHow are we as a group going to make sure that we give them the attention they deserve? And what's the impact of not doing that? I think it's quite important for people to understand the why of things. So, when you're giving somebody a task, when you're delegating to somebody, it's all very well saying, okay, this is what I need to be done, and this is the output I want to see. And if you're a good manager, then you let them work out the how for themselves, and you coach them to get to the how themselves, rather than being too prescriptive and micromanaging.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt's also about making sure that you get some buy-in from them. They understand the impact of why they're doing this task, how it fits into the overall bigger picture, but also what's important about it, what will happen if they do it well, and what might the consequence be if they don't do it well? What's the potential downside? And giving them accountability and responsibility for making it happen. So, it's really easy for me managers to say, here's a job I need you to do, go and do that. They see this tiny little part of the puzzle, and they don't get how it fits into the bigger picture. They're not interested, they're not motivated, and they're possibly not rewarded either to do that job, so they don't do it. And then it comes to the deadline, and the manager says, so, how did you get on with Project A? And they go, yeah, no, I didn't. I haven't got around to it yet. Yeah, maybe next week. Kate has taken her decades of experience, and also hundreds of thousands of comments messages and reactions to Linda the Bad Manager and condensed it all into a new book called How to Lead. It is out on the 12th of November and is set to be the Bible for anyone who wants to be a great leader. We're going to rejoin the interview where Al, being his usual cheeky self, asked Kate why, why the world needed yet another book on leadership. Kate, of course, was effortlessly cool in her reply. There's a lot of leadership books, and I love a lot of them, but they're quite often concept-led, aren't they? They're sort of, you know, the Brené Browns and the Simon Sineks. It's sort of And I see the fantastic Mel Robbins has got a book, it's not about leadership, but it's called Let Them. And I'm thinking, how has she written a whole book on the concept of ignore other people? That's basically the concept. It's called Let Them. So, let them rant and rave about that. That's their own problem. Deal with yourself. That's the concept. What else is there to say? But she's managed to write a whole book about it. Brené Brown's books are really, really good.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut I wanted to give people a book that would sit by their side like mine is. Look, here it is, that they could reference every day. Oh, I've got a difficult conversation with Al. And yeah, he's not quite performing. Actually, what did Kate say? How I should do that? Here's a checklist. So, it's actually a proper coach in your pocket. How am I going to do this day to day? And it guides you on on how to be a leader every single day. So, that's why it's different from the other ones. And also, it's got some Linda bits in it as well. So, it's got some humor in it to make it lighter than your average leadership book.
Al ElliottSo, your character, Linda the Bad Manager, did you write the book for her in a way?
Leanne ElliottOh, no. Well, yeah, sort of. Yeah, I think about that. That's a good question. I get quite a lot of people on social media saying, it's all very well you doing these funny skits, showing us how not to lead, but wouldn't it be useful if you used your platform? I mean, this is quite an aggressive one. They're not always like this. Sometimes they're a bit more friendly, but the aggressive ones are, wouldn't it be useful if you used your platform to actually help us? We're all struggling here, and here you are taking the mickey out of us. It's hard being a manager. Why don't you try it? And I'm like, okay, yeah, I've got gray hair for a reason. I've been in this business for over 30 years. So, I thought, actually, yeah, fair enough. I could give them some guidance, but I have a free newsletter, weekly newsletter. I have a free leadership habits checklist, which gives you the 5 habits of the best leaders so you can actually bring it into your own life. But then obviously, as time goes by, you can't help thinking, oh, I've got quite a lot to say about this. Perhaps I could write a book. So, So, I wrote the book, and I've also got a podcast coming at the end of November as well, which is also called How to Lead, which will actually be— Jo, am I talking about this? Am I allowed to share a podcast on a podcast? Is that all right?
Al ElliottPlease do.
Leanne ElliottI'm sure it won't take any of your market shares. It's going to be called How to Lead. It's out on the 20th. The first one is the 29th of November. That's when it launches. But it's only 10 minutes a week, and it's only— well, I say it's only me, it's Linda and me. The first clip is Linda talking about the job justification meeting that she runs every week, where she goes around the room and everybody has to justify why they're there. It's not actually a team meeting for collaboration or for sharing ideas or for unblocking problems. It's just, tell me what you're doing to justify why you've still got your job. So, we have a little Linda video, and then I pop up with actually how you could run a weekly team meeting that's meaningful and constructive and productive, and people actually want to come to.
Al ElliottWhat is the worst thing that you've ever seen a manager do? one thing that you really want leaders to take away from your book, How to Lead?
Leanne ElliottI think it's to take a beat, as my young adult children would say, take a hot second to think about how you want to show up as a leader, how you go into a meeting, what your role is, what's the agenda, what's the outcome you want to have, how you go into any conversation, what's actually the positive influence you want to have, how you speak to people, how it influences Their— how they feel about their jobs, how engaged they are. And just take a minute just to think about those things. Be an intentional leader that shows up with that sense of positivity and calm and doesn't have an emotional instinctive reaction, but has a considered response. So, that is it. That is the amazing Kate Waterfall Hill and Linda the Bad Manager. So, go follow Linda and Kate on TikTok @kate.waterfallhill and @lindathewrongmanager. Waterfall Hill, or search for Linda the Bad Manager. She is hilarious. I have followed her channel for a while, um, so when we found out that, that Kate wanted to be on the show, we were very, very excited. Do go and check it out, it is funny. If you want to learn more about Kate, her Leadership Accelerator, and pre-order her book that is out very, very soon, here is where to go. The reason I have Waterfall in my name, my maiden name, is because it's a relatively unusual. So, if you look me up on the internet, Kate Waterfall-Hill, my email— sorry, my website is waterfallhill.co.uk. That's the best place.
Al ElliottAnd don't forget her brand new podcast, How to Lead, is out on the 29th of November. Make sure you listen for great management advice, but also some typical British humour. If you like us, you're going to like Kate.
Leanne ElliottThat is all for today.
Al ElliottA quick reminder, if you like to hear stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then every Thursday we bring you an amazing guest And if you'd like to keep up to date with the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt segment, then tune in next Tuesday where we will bring you more of our weekly news roundup, our segment called Hot Takes, and of course our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Leah, any other business before we can let these good people go?
Leanne ElliottJust the usual housekeeping, please. Um, if you wouldn't mind subscribing or following whatever app you're listening or watching on. Get in touch with Kate. Go, do you know what, I thought your Fabulous before. Heard you on Truth and Lies. I think even more fabulous now. Leanne did such a brilliant job of showcasing how awesome you are. Um, that would be nice. Go follow us on LinkedIn, keep the conversation going over there and give you some insights into what our general week looks like. Um, if you are in the US and are not thrilled that Trump won the election, um, I've seen some really great articles out on the moment about anxiety and election grief. Um, give it a Google. There's lots of practical tips out there to take a breath and move forward. Um, and we'll see what that looks like. I'm sure we'll comment on that in future Tuesday episodes. Um, I think that's it, Al.
Al ElliottYeah, I think that's it. Uh, by the way, if you listen this far— and if you have, bravo, well done— but if you listen this far, have you ever listened to the very end of our podcasts? Because when the music stops, we don't. Shh, don't tell anyone. See you soon. Bye-bye.
Leanne ElliottMy tea's good today, love.
Al ElliottIs it? I'm glad I'm getting that right. Podcast producer, interviewer, and king of tea making.
Leanne ElliottI'm on fire today.
Al ElliottYou are.
Leanne ElliottIt's the tea. Bad manager. Do come follow Linda on TikTok. Lindo, it's because you're laughing because I said that. You have it. So go and follow Linda on TikTok immediately at Kate— Kate— Kate. Are we on it?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottNo, somebody else's typical British humor. Kate's typical British humor.
Al ElliottKate.
Leanne ElliottYou're looking for gas.
Al ElliottLet's do that again.
Leanne ElliottThat is all for today. A quick reminder, if you like to hear stories of how organisations, big organisations—
Al Elliottsaid you were on fire, didn't you?
Leanne ElliottI know, fucked it.
Al ElliottHot takes. It's not brand new anymore, but it's kind of brand new. And with our— and bollocks.
Leanne ElliottHey, wait, wait, wait.