Episode 146 · 19 November 2024 · 50:38
Basecamp bans politics and Fortnum & Mason's Diversity Fail. PLUS! Luis Camejo’s Hot Take on Content Creation - This Week in Work Tuesday 19th November 2024
Basecamp bans politics and Fortnum & Mason's Diversity Fail. PLUS! Luis Camejo’s Hot Take on Content Creation - This Week in Work Tuesday 19th November 2024
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Story 1: The Gen-Z skill gap
news roundup#gen-z#skills#workplace
Story 2: Basecamp bans political discussions
news roundup#basecamp#politics#workplace-policy
Story 3: Fortnum & Mason's diversity fail
news roundup#diversity#inclusion#fortnum-mason
Hot Take: Luis Camejo on content creation
Workplace Surgery: Toxic employee, massive revenue
workplace surgery#toxic-employee#sales#revenue#management
Workplace Surgery: Workplace jealousy
workplace surgery#jealousy#workplace#success
Show notes
Basecamp Bans Politics & Fortnum & Mason's Diversity Fail — Plus Luis Camejo's Hot Take on Content Creation
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the Gen-Z "skill gap" debate, Basecamp's controversial decision to ban political talk at work, and Fortnum & Mason's Paralympic exclusion blunder. Plus, podcasting legend Luis Camejo shares why not everyone should be a content creator, and Leanne tackles workplace toxicity, bullying, and jealousy in the Workplace Surgery.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Are Gen-Z workers really unemployable? A recent Fortune article raises concerns about Gen-Z's readiness for the workforce, citing gaps in soft skills like communication and long-term commitment. But Al and Leanne push back — is this a Gen-Z problem, or a management problem? And if we're not recruiting for the skills we actually need, whose fault is that? Source →
2. Basecamp's controversial ban on political discussions Back in 2022, Basecamp CEO Jason Fried made the call to ban "societal and political discussions" on company chat forums. The team unpacks why this sparked so much controversy, the consistency problem with drawing the line, and whether silence is really the safest option. Source →
3. Fortnum & Mason's Paralympic diversity blunder The posh London retailer faced backlash after excluding Paralympians from an after-party following a royal reception. Visually impaired sprinter Zac Shaw called it out publicly — and it raises bigger questions about what "diversity" really means when the invitation list gets drawn up. Source →
🎙️ Hot Take: Luis Camejo — "Not Everyone Should Be a Content Creator"
Luis Camejo, co-host of the Content is Profit podcast, joins the show with a spicy take: content creation is all the rage, but not everyone is cut out for it. He breaks down the myths around viral success, the pressure entrepreneurs feel to create content just because it's trendy, and why long-term dedication beats instant gratification every time.
Al and Leanne dig into whether they agree — and Leanne shares the honest reality of starting Truth, Lies & Work back in 2022 with the right equipment, the right partner, and a lot of patience.
More from Luis Camejo: Content is Profit Podcast · BizBros
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Toxic but profitable: "My top salesperson brings in nearly half our revenue, but they're toxic. Do I get rid of them and risk the business?"
- Bullying from a manager: "I work at a small brewery with no HR department. My manager excludes and bullies me. Do I escalate or leave?"
- Workplace jealousy: "I'm a department head, and colleagues are hostile because of my team's success. How do I handle it?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottThis is a Tuesday, so quick reminder, if you like guest interviews or, and hearing stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then Thursdays are right up your street. But if you like a Tuesday where we bring you the This Week in Work, we bring you a weekly workplace surgery, bring you hot takes, And then just a bit more of us two just mucking about, then you're in the right place because you're gonna love today.
Leanne ElliottYou are gonna love today. As Al said, we're back with our hot takes where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of business owners, thought leaders, and influencers. If you're not sure what we're doing, what it all means, we're asking them for their boldest insights, whether that is a controversial prediction or an unpopular opinion. Nothing is off limits. What is happening in the world of work? What is broken and what is going to happen next?
Al ElliottSo, Leanne, I think it's your favourite time of the week, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt is. It is time for the news roundup. Cue the jingle.
Al ElliottLeanne Elliott, what have you seen?
Leanne ElliottI saw, um, a bit— an article about Gen Z. I feel like we don't talk about enough on the show. Should maybe inject a bit of youth. Um, yeah, no, I saw— I mean, they're everywhere, aren't they? You gotta, gotta feel for the kids. Um, an article in Fortune, um, it was talking about how some companies seem to be hesitant about hiring Gen Z, um, actually calling them unemployable, saying things like they lack communication skills, aren't quite work ready. Well, they're just joining work, and even that they're not sticking around very long. I wonder why that is. Now, I want to make it clear, and you might have already got my tone, I'm a big fan of Gen Z. I've had some brilliant conversations with many young people on the podcast, in real life. They are just wonderful. They bring fresh perspectives, they challenge the status quo, and frankly, they've got a lot to teach the rest of us. But if I'm being honest, then yep, this soft skills gap does keep cropping up, and there may be, there may be something to it, as there is with any young person of any generation who brings, um, who joins the the workforce initially. Um, but when we add in the context of the pandemic and how we all— I think all of our social skills suffered over those 2 years— um, then, then yeah, it does make sense there might be a little soft skills gap here that needs looking at. Um, so yeah, according to the article, this is what it was calling out: the best candidates, the top 1%, um, if you will, tend to have a few traits in common that make them stand out. And interestingly, these are the things that can help Gen Z shine, uh, not just in interviews but on the job too. So This is a list of skills that employers are saying Gen Z would be, would be worth their while investing some time in. First up, and to be honest, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read you this list down. I think honestly it's just a list that everyone needs to invest time in. First up, self-awareness.
Al ElliottAll right, who knew?
Leanne ElliottYeah, top candidates tend to be pretty tuned into themselves and what's expected of them even before they step into the interview room. For Gen Z, this might mean holding back a little on things like salary demands right out the gate. Yeah, um, it's not about undervaluing yourself but showing enthusiasm for the opportunity, not just the paycheck. This is the article saying this, not Leanne. Um, so yeah, apparently employers want to know you're interested in the role, um, before they start to talk all about that stuff.
Al ElliottWell, I mean, to be fair, if you're going to be dating, if you use that same analogy— and I won't be quite as crass as to tell you exactly what the salary demands are of a dating situation— but you go in there asking for a very specific sort of thing without even just listening to someone, uh, yeah, no, okay, I can see that. Sorry, what was your second one?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think there's a flip side, but yep, yep. And the second one, um, communication, um, is rooted in curiosity. So apparently the best candidates aren't just talking, they're genuinely interested in others. They ask questions, they engage, and they show they're open to learning. This can go a long way, um, interview, on the job. It's a skill that's highly valued, especially in an age where face-to-face interaction still counts. Um, and then finally, anticipating needs and paying attention to detail. Employers love, uh, candidates aren't just coasting but actually read the room, pick up on cues, and engage thoughtfully. That extra attention, um, on the job, like asking follow-up questions or building some kind of connection and camaraderie, signals that you're serious, um, serious about the job. Um, oh, there is one more actually— preparedness. Showing up with a bit of polish apparently can set you apart, um, on the job in, in interviews. The article mentioned that a lot of young candidates are dressing down a bit too much. Um, going just a touch more formal apparently shows respect for opportunity and gives off a more professional Um, so that's what the article is recommending. If you're a Gen Zer out there, um, and you're preparing for interview or entering, um, into your, your first role, um, these small shifts might be a difference. Now, I hate to call it a pot kettle black. Have we not just read out a really great list of leadership development points?
Al ElliottYeah, or just any interview point. Doesn't matter what age you are, whether you're 80 or 18.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and do we not know that the state of management is just Horribly poor in the UK and around the world. So before we start to, to point the finger at our new people joining the workforce, it seems like we could all do investing in, in those traits. No, anyway, I'm going on. Al, sorry, thoughts?
Al ElliottWell, let's just, let's just pretend we're on some kind of corporate management training seminar and I'll go, you know, when you point one finger at them, there's 4 fingers pointing back at you. Oh, cheesy, cheesy. Anyway, Look, I think this is, this is great. I think that anyone who is curious, if you're curious in other people, people will think you're the most interesting person in the world. Um, the other thing is that when everyone zigs, you should zag. Um, that was from, that was courtesy of Zig and Zag from the, uh, breakfast show, Big Breakfast. If you know, you know. Um, but I think that if you think about the majority of people are used to communicating online and younger people are used to communicating online and some of them will take those communication skills and use them in real life.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIf you can be really hecking good at communicating, you know, face to face, if you can genuinely be curious and interested in what other people are saying, it doesn't matter if you're Gen Z, doesn't matter whether you're boomer, people are going to love you. This is the key. If you want to find friends and have influence, what's the book called? Influence People.
Leanne ElliottHow to Make Friends and Influence People.
Al ElliottThat's wisdom. See, I knew it was a better title than the one I came up with. Um, then all you need to do is be interested in people, listen to them and be interested.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think also we need to bear in mind what, what it is we're recruiting people for. If we're not recruiting people for a role that needs these type— this type of self-awareness, communication skills, curiosity, etc., then why are we looking for an interview? Yes, it's going to be, you know, applicable to perhaps in terms of progression and might make development a bit easier, or arguably teamwork if that is required again for the job. My feel is we might actually be judging, um, new people into the workforce on criteria that they either don't require for the job or quite rightly haven't developed yet or are still in the early stages of developing. Especially— I'm sorry, I can count on one hand the number of managers I've had with good self-awareness, who are prepared, who were curious, who asked questions about me. It's just lazy leadership, isn't it, to call out the people joining the workforce for not having these skills that these people probably don't have themselves? Because the people that do The people like Paul Barnes from MAP who's built his entire business on Gen Z. We know that Gen Z are incredible and have so much value to offer. So I think it's silly to just tarnish, tarnish a generation with, with, with this. So I think I'm, I think I'm getting to the point where I'm— we've talked about Gen Z a lot now. I'm starting to get a bit bored of the finger-pointing and the lack of rather than actually focusing on what they can bring and how we can help them develop. But anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottWell, a couple of weeks ago there was a small election in a small country over the sea. What was it? I think they call it— is it America? I can't— I don't know how you pronounce it, uh, but there was a—
Leanne ElliottUSA.
Al ElliottUSA, that was it.
Leanne ElliottUSA.
Al ElliottExactly.
Leanne ElliottUSA. Really?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottI hadn't heard about that. Who won?
Al ElliottI don't know. Quite a few discussions online about it, including on this podcast. And there was a discussion recently on this podcast about whether companies should encourage or discourage Outright talk on politics in the workplace. Now, politics is a little bit like religion in that it can be pretty divisive. So we have to be a little bit careful when we talk about this. We had one of the letters for the Workplace Surgery was around this. Should I just ban talk of politics completely? Well, that's what someone's done. So a couple of years ago, Jason Fried of Basecamp, one of the co-owners of Basecamp, he took a stance on this that was a little controversial. Back in 2022. Jason announced that they are banning societal— we get this right— societal and political discussions on company chat forums, which led to several employees to look at leaving. Then Coinbase, the hugely successful Y Combinator startup, the CEO of that, Brian Armstrong, came out with public support for this, for this move. And this is— this makes me laugh— public support in that they just basically, they just tweeted, replied saying, another mission-focused company with a clapping emoji. That's what, that's what coming out with emotional support is in 2024. Anyway, the employees say the ban is a surprise as they never really had much in the way of political discussions. One worker explained, at least in my experience, what they said, at least in my experience, has always been centred on what's happening at Basecamp. It's never been big political discussions like the Postal Service should be disbanded. That's an odd example to choose, but that's the one that they're choosing. I'm just reading from what they said. So what turns out is this policy is a little bit confusing for some of the staff because Some of them pointed out that how do you talk about raising— this is what I'm saying again, by how do you talk about raising kids without talking about society? How do you talk about your, your wage without talking about politics? As soon as I bring up something like public schools and it's already political, which is a fair point. So summary, where we're up to. Jason and DHS, David Hyman Hansen, who are the 2 co-owners of 37signals, which is now Basecamp, basically said no political and societal discussions online. Or in the company, people are saying, I don't really know how to deal with that. Basecamp itself has actually taken quite political stances, which seems a little bit weird to me. They've criticized Apple's App Store fees and even let a Chicago mayor use their office as a campaign headquarters in 2018. Now I have to be honest, full disclosure here, 'cause I think the guys at Basecamp are great and I really enjoy, like I've got 5 of their books behind me. I think what they say is brilliant and it's a tough job managing what they've only got 40, 50, 60 people there. It's a tough job because—
Leanne ElliottAre there really?
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah. It's only a very small company.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Al ElliottThey started off calling 37signals and the idea was that they're only going to have 37 people. That was going to be the maximum of it. So I don't— I think they might have gone to in the heyday, possibly 100, but they try and keep it intentionally small. So I'm kind of trying to look at both sides here. Jason Fried wrote that this is the long-term healthy way forward for Basecamp as a whole. The company and our products, and to be honest, most of DHH and Freed do at Basecamp, which is pretty amazing, is for the good of the company. However, I did find tucked away in one article, one anonymous employee seems to think there's less about making a great culture and more about falling in with the views of the two leaders. They said the bosses are not interested in seeing things in their work timeline that make them feel uncomfortable or distract them from what they're interested in. What it comes down to is. If you were thinking of banning societal or particular political discussions in your workplace, there is a template that 37signals/Basecamp have implemented, and you've started, and I've given you some ideas of the feedback on it. It's not as simple as saying, right, we don't talk about politics anymore. It's just not as simple as that. That said, I don't know whether some of this, some of this pushback is coming from because people want to talk about politics, where people feel like they're being a little bit sort of like You know, free speech is taken away from them in their company, or maybe they just don't like David and Jason. I don't know. Anyway, Lee, that's kind of where we're up to. What are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottUm, is Basecamp remote? 100% remote?
Al ElliottUh, not 100%, but mainly remote, yes. Right.
Leanne ElliottThe problem with this and why it creates beef and a bit of saltiness, um, is because there's no consistency and there's some incongruence there. I could, I could have argued You know, at least you've taken a stance and you're standing by it until you hosted, um, the, um, the Chicago mayor for their political campaign.
Al ElliottTo be fair, that was in 2018, and this was 2022 when they made the decision.
Leanne ElliottOh, okay. Oh, okay. Oh, fair enough then. My misunderstanding. Scrap that. Um, I guess it's one of those, isn't it? It's, it's fine if you want to kind of— it's clarity in processes and policy is always really good. So it's very clear, isn't it, that we don't talk about that. On an online thing, which I'm guessing is going to be something like Slack or whatever internal kind of chat internet platform thingy they use. Um, yeah, all right then, because I guess you can always, you know, if you've got a friend, you can always give them a call, or if you see them in the office when you are there, chat about things. I think the challenge is, is when, when politically there is a lot happening that actually has a direct impact on a lot of people, um, in terms of health policy, in terms of immigration, There is a lot of things that are happening that will actually cause anxiety amongst your people and concern around your people, um, in terms of their health, in terms of their safety, in terms of their way of life. So putting kind of a hard block on it might create a challenge for the psychological safety needed when somebody needs to raise this with their manager because it's directly impacting them. They're feeling anxious about it. It could raise an extra barrier, but then I You know, maybe there is something in the policy that says under these circumstances you are allowed to escalate to your manager. Maybe it's more about escalation's fine, general chatter is not, in which case, yeah, maybe.
Al ElliottSo, Leanne, what else have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottWell, going from one blunder to another, Fortnum Mason. I know, I know that maybe you have shopped there, actually. You're quite posh, Al. Shopped at Fortnum Mason?
Al ElliottNo. Waitrose is about the highest echelon I think I've ever got in terms of shopping.
Leanne ElliottYeah, Fortnum Mason make Waitrose look like Lidl, do you know what I mean? Like, we're talking—
Al ElliottYou say, do you know what I mean? But there's a good chance that 85% of people listening to this podcast have no idea what any of these names mean.
Leanne ElliottBut anyway, it's a posh supermarket, very posh supermarket.
Al ElliottThink Whole Foods but for royalty.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottIf you're in the US. Carry on.
Leanne ElliottYes, so, um, Fortnum Mason, they, um, they had a bit of a calling out in The Telegraph, um, around diversity and inclusion and particularly around Paralympians. So here's what happened, Al. Team GB Olympians and Paralympians were invited to Buckingham Palace for a joint reception with the King to celebrate their achievements, achievements in Paris this summer, which is all very lovely. Thank you to the King and Queen for that. Um, the problem was there was then an after-party hosted by Fortnum Mason, um, and apparently their exclusive bash didn't include Paralympians.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottThey only invited The Olympians.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottThis actually only came to light because Zac Shaw, a visibly impaired Paralympic sprinter, found out about it from an Olympian friend. Shaw, who brought home both silver and bronze medals, shared that it was hurtful and disappointing to discover that while Olympians headed off to enjoy engraved champagne bottles and a glitzy party, the Paralympians were left out. So Shaw pointed out how often actually this kind of thing happens, whether it's about prize money, event hosting, or in this case invitations to celebrations. Um, this, this, yeah, it isn't a standalone thing. He didn't mince his words, saying how it highlights as a society we're perhaps not as far along as we like to think we are when it comes to equality. Um, anyway, Fortnum Mason did respond, um, apologizing of course, blaming the snub on a failure of communication. Are they all Gen Zs at Fortnum Mason or what? Um, saying they're planning, they're now planning a separate reception for Paralympians, um, although it's not quite clear when. Sean Shaw wasn't impressed with this either, saying the response felt like more of an excuse than a genuine solution. To be fair, Fortnum said that they had good intentions and are genuinely sorry, but it is hard to overlook the insight here, especially in 2024 when really diversity and inclusion is all anyone, any business can talk about. Finally. So yeah, I was a bit surprised by that one. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottI'm not sure that really, if you're talking about inclusion, that Fortnum Mason saying, oh, don't worry, we were planning a separate one for you, is basically what you should be doing to make people feel included. So I think that's— it all sounds like a big pile of rubbish to me. Like someone has basically dropped a— I can't say the word bollock here, can I? Has basically dropped the ball. And And messed up, and now they're trying to backtrack.
Leanne ElliottDo you know what? I think it's probably another example of why these teams need to work together and why something like equality and diversity and inclusion is, is embedded into the DNA of an organization. It's not just the responsibility of HR or people and culture. It needs to feed into events, comms, marketing, operations. Like, it's, it's— if it's part of your culture, it's part of everyday ways of working. And in that environment somebody is going to go, um, what are we doing for the Paralympians? Have we thought about that? You know, so I think it really just points to Fortnum Mason's culture that maybe should I be surprised that it's not particularly inclusive? Um, maybe not.
Al ElliottVery good point. Lee, I'm going to cut you short because we're gonna have this very, very short break. But after this break, we're gonna be back with a hot take from a podcasting legend. And of course, the world-famous weekly workplace surgery. Do not go away.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys? I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back. I'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Today we bring you a hot take from the most energetic man in podcasting. Luis and Funzi are the co-hosts of the hugely successful podcast Content Is Profit and also have a professional podcast studio that they rent in Jacksonville, Florida. Luis's hot take is a spicy one. And if you're thinking of creating any kind of content in 2025, then you have to listen to what he has to say. Well, my name is Luis Camejo. I'm the half of the Biz Bros. The other one is the other Luis, also same name. We own a podcast studio called Studio Podcast Suites, which is where I'm recording now. We rent it out to people. And then we are the Biz Bros, hosts of the Content is Profit podcast. That's how everything started a few years ago. Let's get down to business, Luis. What is your hot take? My hot take is that not everybody wants to be a content creator once they start creating content. Uh, and you know, we live in this era of like, everybody needs to be on their phones, everybody needs to be creating content. If you're a business owner, you have to be doing it. My hot take is that not a lot of people want to do that. And, uh, you know, simply because as soon as they start doing it, they understand that it's not an easy process to To replicate and to go forward. And maybe they're not comfortable with like their own thoughts and their own things, or maybe their own ideas. And it can be like, um, it can be like a very tough journey internally to go and publish content. So, um, whether I believe that you need to be online, yes, absolutely. As a company, as a, as a business, I think you might have to do it. But I think a lot of people have the wrong impression. It was like, okay, I'm gonna succeed with content very quickly. I'm gonna go viral because of my thoughts and my format. that another 1,000 shows might have the same thing. It just takes a lot longer. So, um, I, I'm sorry if I'm bursting some bubbles, but, uh, I like to lead with the truth. And I've seen so many people come through, you know, our studio with really big, big hopes of different things. And there's a lot of work that we need to do. I mean, we are in that journey currently, you and me. And, uh, and I'm sure we can, we can attest for that. But I think, you know, from the very beginning, if we come with like the right mentality and the right idea of like, hey, this is a long-term thing. That I'm willing to do, that I enjoy doing, the journey is going to be a lot easier. But Luis, everyone tells me I need to make content, whether it's a podcast or a YouTube channel or get on Instagram or even the TikTok. Um, where's the, where's the myth in this? Where's the pressure coming from for entrepreneurs, business owners, leaders to create content? Well, first, the consumption, right? Like a lot of people now are consumers of content. So we see content every single day. And sometimes we see a piece of content that might inspire us, or maybe somebody saying, because they're selling a product, That promises like speed and that it results, you know, tomorrow. Right. And we see a lot because that sells. Um, and, uh, we might just be imagining something that is not there. So, you know, as a business leader, we have a crazy story where we had this lady, we met her at an event in Montana and, uh, she was attending. She, she, she saw us, uh, that we had the show and she's like, oh my God, everybody's telling me that I need to have a podcast. And once we started learning a little bit more about her, She owned a brick-and-mortar business that she was in the cannabis business. And we're like, but why do you need a podcast? I'm like, well, everybody's telling me to do the podcast. It's the hot thing. And this is like, you know, around COVID area where like everything was going online. And we're like, well, we're happy to help you, Michelle, but let's dive into this. And then she never called. And then we connected 2 years later. And then after that, I was like, Michelle, how's the podcast going? It was like, I haven't started yet. And then I'm like, okay, let's dive in. And we uncovered that she was creating a lot of internal friction because first, she didn't own any type of equipment. So, just to go and research some of that was taking a lot of resources and mental capacity. She didn't like to be in front of a camera, right? She didn't like to write scripts. She enjoyed her day-to-day in the shop. She had a phone. That was about it. We discovered that she had no capacity to sit down and record. Let alone produce it. And she didn't have money to hire an editor. So there's all these things that come to mind. She didn't want to learn how to edit either, right? So there's another thing. And again, this is an example with a small business owner, but what we discovered was that she enjoys writing. She was making time in her day to write about 2 hours a day, like her own journal, her own things. I'm like, well, why don't we shift the attention and maybe a couple of those days you write about your business? And that's what she did. And she launched a newsletter. And then 3 months later, she's booming in her town because everybody's signing up for her newsletter. She has crazy ideas. She was able to hire somebody to handle the social media side of things. So I think we need to like have a very, very honest conversation with ourselves and be like, what is the thing that I actually enjoy doing? Like, if you are the one doing the thing, you know, there's many CEOs that control their message that love to be on camera, that want to spread the message. But if that's not you and you consider that is a smart business decision to be on whatever platform, Then what are the elements that we need to put in there? Do we need a co-host? Do we need a guest host? Do we need, you know, to hire a bunch of influencers? Do we need to hire a YouTube team to run it? Uh, what is the thing? And I think a lot of people are not having those conversations, um, because quite honestly, they might not even know what to expect because they haven't tried it before. What's the difference of the people that come into your studio with that idea, with that dream and make it work? Yeah. Oh, it's such a good question. And at the beginning, you know, we, we came from like just doing online business, right. And, uh, you know, a lot of people that came to us because of the network, there were already people that were way ahead. They've tried this like maybe 5 times and we're like the 6th time that we came in. And so they had a lot of practice already. They knew what didn't work and they wanted to work on what worked. When we purchased the studio, we saw a lot of beginners, a lot of people starting, and they will come in and be like, oh, I see this show on TikTok or this show here and we want the same thing. And I'm like, okay, do we have the same resources? And, uh, the, the answer was like, no, we don't. And it was like very frustrating to see a lot of people just like let it go.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThe people that succeed though, I mean, we have just a crazy story that just happened a couple of weeks. It's like this couple, they're very big into the FIRE movement. Um, they're called the CosFI couple and they've been talking about our podcast for about 2 years, like together, like husband and wife and them, you know, having these conversations about money and helping families. And the guy's an investor in a company that's sponsoring the podcast. And finally, with the studio, they unlocked the production, right? They were trying to figure out at their house, in the living room, they didn't know equipment. They didn't know the logistics of it. And by coming here, that was unlocked. And they launched the show right before a big, big conference here in the States. Um, and it unlocked a bunch of doors for like new sponsorships, new bigger deals, new relationships. And they're so excited. And guess what changed? What changed was believing that their message was going to help a ton of people. Like the first episode that we were recording, I could tell they were like taken aback. They were almost like ashamed of sharing their thoughts. with their experience. And we had to sit down almost like a coaching session. And I was like, Matt, tell me, do you really believe like the product that you like, the company that you invested, that you put in your hard-earned money into it, that you're putting your time into it, that you do it with your family, that these frameworks, these strategies, do you believe that it helped you?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottSo do you believe that you can help other people do the same thing if you share these stories? Um, he said yes. And it's like, okay, well, is that the service? If we don't share it fully, if we don't fully commit to that message, It's going to be really challenging. And they made the conscious decision that day that they were going to share those stories as painful as they were. I think I remember the 6th episode, they both cried sharing stories, really, really, really hard stories. But I am sure that that story is going to help somebody that might be living in the same situation and they're going to be doing that. So, visualizing, okay, what I'm saying is honest. I really believe that this is going to help people. I think that's going to help a lot of people move the ball forward. And once they see the reaction of the people that they're having conversations with, the belief is done and then they continue and then the momentum happens and they continue to publish. I'm sure our listeners will want to hear more about you. Where's the best place for them to find you? Yeah, absolutely. Um, you can search in your favorite podcasting platform, Content is Profit. There's plenty of episodes of me and my brother kind of rambling and, uh, sharing some lessons in the content and entrepreneurship world. contentisprofit.com. Also, if it's easier, Or our homepage, bizbros.co, if you want to learn a little bit more about what we do. So what do you think of that, Al?
Al ElliottI totally agree with everything, everything you said. Firstly, not everyone should feel like they should make content. In fact, some people are pretty terrible at it and they should not. That's quite a harsh thing to say, but not everyone should compete in the Olympics. You know, it's kind of just, it's just the way of the world. And secondly, people obsess over the how of making content, not the why. This is what Luis was saying about having to have all the equipment before they even start. There are plenty of very credible channels out there that just use an iPhone on YouTube, for example, and they're successful because they know why they're making content and who it's for. Having a fancy microphone is gonna make your message sound a lot better, of course, but if the message is a load of bullshit, then all you are doing is creating really nice quality bullshit. I, I think the wrong way to approach creating content, whether it's TikTok, Instagram, newsletter, videos, podcast, whatever it is, is to think the world needs to hear my thoughts. That's not true. The reality is that when you're first starting out, nobody will care about you and what you think. So you need to start by helping the audience solve a very specific problem. If you're a mortgage broker, for example, tell them the secrets behind getting a great rate for a mortgage. If you're a yoga teacher, then tell them how to get started in yoga in just like 7 days or something like that. If you're, say, a business psychologist, don't tell them about the latest research on leadership. Tell them one thing they can do to be a better leader tomorrow.
Leanne ElliottBuild your self-awareness.
Al ElliottThere we go. Leah, any thoughts from what Luis said?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I agree. I mean, we, we started this podcast in 2022. When we did, we already had quite a lot of the equipment and kind of knew what we were doing because we had another, uh, podcast for 4 years before that. Um, the quality of that is— was not as good when it started out. Um, but it wasn't the microphones that made this one successful. successful, or indeed the previous one, it was the experience of recording those episodes. Um, I think, you know, more than kind of 250-odd plus now podcasts we've recorded in our, in our, what, 5, 6-year career as podcasters. So it's— if we've got better, it's no accident. If it is, if it's got worse, then that's strange. Um, so yeah. And I think as well, we quickly discovered that nobody really wanted to hear about our travels in terms of of what, what we did on our jolly bobs. Um, what we arrogantly thought when we first started the pod. They wanted to hear about the places that they could go to on their next adventure, what was great about the place that we went, what there is to do, where there is to eat, the type of people it'd be great for. Great content is always about the listener or the viewer. And, and you know what? Great, great communications is always about the listener or the viewer. Take that takeaway in terms of management and leadership when you're communicating with your staff. That communication isn't about you. It's about the people that, um, that you're, you're expressing that, that to.
Al ElliottIf you want to be a content creator because you want to genuinely help people solve problems, don't worry about it. You'll be great. You'll be absolutely great. Well, actually, you won't. You're gonna be rubbish for the first like 6 months, but don't worry about it. Get that out the way. You've got— that's like your rite of passage, and then you're gonna be great. Whereas if you want to be a content creator because you want to have— go and buy a Rolls-Royce and have all the merch that people have sent you because you're walking along because you've got this new Apple Watch that Apple sent you because you create content, my friend, you want— that's not going to happen. You're going to burn out and you're going to crash and it's going to be horrible. So I think the, the bottom line is that yes, there's a trend upwards. No, it doesn't mean you have to do it. But if you genuinely want to fall in love with creating of the content, with the fall in love with solving the problem, which is probably why you started your business in the first place, it's for you. You're not going to get it right straight away, but it is for you. If you more likely want to stop people at a party and go, oh yeah, no, I'm a YouTuber because you just want to be a YouTuber, well, that's not the way MrBeast looks at it. It's not the way most of the people who succeed look at it. They love the medium. They love— they wake up thinking about stuff they're going to make. They don't wake up thinking about the money they're going to spend.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think that the final word I'd say on that, if you are thinking about starting a podcast and it's just an audio-only podcast, please remember audio is all you've got. So that might be the one exception where actually you might need to invest in something, whether it's just a little, a little lapel mic that is going to improve your, your microphone quality as you record into your iPhone, or you can pick up, from what I understand from Al, mics, maybe not like this one, but not too dissimilar, that actually aren't that expensive. So for maybe a budget of maybe £100 to £200, you could probably get some really decent equipment that it's gonna be probably then only the people that will know, know, will know the difference between your, your quality of all your audio versus kind of studio quality. And if you do need help with that, fun fact, Al does that as a bit of consultancy on the side. He's helped loads of different podcasts. I'd call them out, but I daren't. But he's done it before.
Al ElliottTalking of podcasts, go and listen to more of Luis on Content Is Profit wherever you get your podcasts. And go noise up Luis on LinkedIn. Tell him you loved his hot take. Okay, Lee, it's my favourite time of the week. It's time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to the lovely Leah. Leah, I've got 3 questions for you this week. Shall I start with question number 1? Would that be logical?
Leanne ElliottYes, please.
Al ElliottOne of my sales executives, who I'll call Alex, brings in nearly half of our company's revenue, but they're becoming increasingly toxic to our workplace culture. Alex essentially operates like a lone wolf, coming and going as they please, missing team meetings and ignoring company policies. I've tried having conversations with Alex about their conduct, but they always deflect with comments about their sales figures. And honestly, they're not wrong about their value. Just last quarter, they closed 2 massive deals that covered our entire operating costs for the year. You get a shout out on this one, Leanne. I know Leanne says culture is the worst behavior you're willing to accept, and you might have to correct this guy.
Leanne ElliottGood paraphrase, but yeah, totes.
Al ElliottFair enough. And I know I'm accepting Alex's very bad behavior, but the reality is if I got rid of Alex and put culture first, we'd lose 45% of our revenue. We might have redundancies and possibly even put the whole company at risk. Lee, I thought it was really interesting because we've had something similar to this before, but nothing on this Oh, it's a doozy. It is.
Leanne ElliottThe, the only thing I would say is, if you listen to what psychologists who, who research what is what are called toxic superstars, which is what Alex is— Alex is a toxic superstar— um, then there's lots of other data that actually shows that that person, in terms of the lowered productivity, morale, and performance of the rest of the team because of the impact of these toxic behaviors, um, is actually probably costing you about 3 times more in terms of revenue, or the loss is kind of 3x Alex, um, the impact he's having. So I don't think it is necessarily— I think you may be on a bit of a 2 2 5. If I let Alex go, we're gonna drop that, that revenue, um, entirely. I mean, I think if you're gonna— if we went down this route and you just said pretend you're gonna let Alex go tomorrow, my question would be, well, Um, is this revenue just from one-off customers? Are they repeat customers? Is this just a bit of safeguarding that you need to think about anyway in your business? If your clients only have relationship with one member of your sales team, that doesn't seem very sensible. What if Alex goes off sick or just decides to leave? Um, so I think there's, there's that in terms of what is actually the reality of that revenue being lost entirely. If that is the case, then I guess it's What, why, why do you care about culture? If your business is making money, if it's making the figures it needs to, and Alex is the route to do that, why are you even questioning it? And then you know why you're questioning it, because you know it's still a massive risk. Because if Alex leaves, you're still screwed. So really, this problem needs addressing either from a, um, a succession planning perspective, from a culture perspective, from a morale perspective, from a hidden lost revenue perspective, it's called revenue leakage. Is that one of those things that can happen? Um, so I think this is a problem that needs to be addressed. It's just at what, at what point is it going to be painful enough for you to do something about it? Um, and when it is painful enough for you to do something about it, look at it from a process perspective, an operations perspective, safeguarding the relationships with the client's perspective. Um, and then in terms of performance management, if, if none of the other, if no other performance metrics are in place right now, apart from revenue, then Alex is quite right. Why does he have to, you know, do all those other things if he's not, you know, his performance isn't measured on that? There might need to be some quality metrics that are brought in that do look at, um, you know, enabling the performance of others or contributing to the bigger picture and bigger mission of the company. Um, yeah, there's lots of different ways to look at it, but really, I'm not sure there's anything I can tell you until you decide that this problem is painful enough to Oh, I love that. Sorry, is that a bit salty?
Al ElliottNo, sorry.
Leanne ElliottI'm sorry. Who— do we know the name of the person who wrote in?
Al ElliottActually, we don't.
Leanne ElliottSorry, I'm still recovering, so my— I'm probably a bit more direct than I normally am. My sugar coating might be down 10% today.
Al ElliottI thought that was very fair, and I think this person— I hope this person who wrote in, um, listened to it and went, she's got a good point. Um, just if from a— I think you made some really excellent points there. Um, I think you're right that number one, Um, the revenue is probably not 100% or 50% of it is attributable to, to Alex.
Leanne ElliottUm, because you don't know what he's sharking either, do you?
Al ElliottNo, exactly. Secondly, as you said, it's a huge risk, it all being like that. And thirdly, you know yourself, if you've got customers, the last thing you want is one customer, um, who makes up 50% of your revenue, because then you haven't got a business, you've got a job. You're a subcontractor to that customer, because if, if they say you now need to reduce the price or add these features or whatever to whatever you're offering, you have to do it. So you're a subcontractor, you haven't got a business. So, um, yes, you need to, you need to dilute your risk. You probably need to get rid of Alex at some point. Um, and, uh, and maybe, maybe just get to do a little covert operation, just see why, why Alex is so good. You've got yourself an amazing opportunity to look at someone who is absolutely killing it right now. So get someone to do a little bit of shadowing. Very quietly and just make notes on what's going on. Record all his, his or her sales calls and go through them, and perhaps you can make a manual out of it.
Leanne ElliottThe other thing to do, I mean, for, for Alex, assuming Alex isn't just an asshole and, you know, he just needs a bit of development and direction, the key is coaching. Superstars in the business are fine if they're coachable. And by coachable, we mean people that are gonna take feedback, constructive feedback, set actions to address that and work towards it. They're not gonna do it with a smile on their face, they're superstars, but they're gonna respond to that. That coaching because they're driven enough to want to be the best of the best. And sometimes it's tapping into that, that personality aspect of them in terms of like, Alex, look, in terms of revenue, you're smashing it, but if you did X, Y, and Z, you'd be the best salesperson that, you know, this industry has ever seen. It's tapping into that ego side of it as well. If they, if they truly want to be the best, they're gonna have to start to, to build on Um, other complementary skills other than just closing deals. So that could be one way to look at it in terms of Alex. If they're coachable, look at getting a sales coach, a career coach, um, whatever kind of coach it is that he needs. It sounds like, it sounds like some kind of soft skill development here, doesn't it? Um, so yeah, it does. Yeah, there you go.
Al ElliottAnyway, Leanne, I've got an odd one for question number 2. It's actually from Reddit, so no one's written in with this. I found it, I found it on Reddit, and I thought it was Sure. So I'll read this to you. I work in marketing for a small brewery where I previously worked as a bartender. I left my bartending role 18 months ago after a difficult relationship with my manager led me to having a panic attack and quitting that position. While I've moved to a different position— or sorry, different department— which I enjoy, this manager continues to create a hostile environment, excluding me from staff activities, telling others I don't even work here anymore, and making a point of ignoring me when I need to visit the taproom for my marketing work. We don't have a formal HR department, and when I previously raised this with management, there was, there was nothing to be done apparently. The manager has been with the company since the beginning and her behavior is getting worse. Feels like I'm being bullied. Should I risk escalating this to management knowing it could make the situation worse, or is it time to look for another job?
Leanne ElliottYou are being bullied. There's no ifs or maybes about it. You are being bullied. Yes, you should escalate that because it sounds like it's getting to the point where it's going to start to impact your ability to perform your job well. And for me, that's a deal breaker. That's the point of like it's beyond politics. It's beyond just some just you know incivility at work. If your if your behavior is going to prevent me from doing the best job that I can do, and I know I'm really freaking good at it, then that's that's a deal breaker for me. That's a point where I escalate it to management, and if management still don't do anything about it, then that for me is a deal breaker in terms of the culture of this organization. Because if if the managers and the culture culture will not enable you to do your best work, then you're never going to thrive in that environment. It's just going to be a matter of time before, you know, and I hate to say it, but the same will happen again. Your anxiety will start to build, it will get to a breaking point of another panic attack, and you'll, you'll move again. And this issue is never getting— the, the problem is never getting solved. You just, you know, you're, you're just removing, um, an aspect of it, or you're just delaying, pushing the problem further down the line until this manager he can come back out and get his toxic little claws into you again. So I think, yeah, my other, my other bit of advice— I'm not, I'm not an employment law specialist, so I can't advise you on this, but I, I do know that there are laws in place. Even if you don't have a, um, a formal HR department, there are laws in place that protect us against bullying and harassment at work. I would phone, assuming you're in the UK, I would call ACAS or go to their website. They're a great organization that can help you understand your rights as an employee and what is expected in terms of the Responsibilities of your employer to protect your your physical and psychological well-being. If you're not in the UK, I don't know the equivalent in the States, but again, I just Google it. There'll be some kind of employment rights specialist organisation charity usually NFP that'll be a first point of contact to help you understand what your legal rights are, and sometimes knowing that as well can help give you a bit of. Bit of context. I remember talking to, to a friend who was kind of having not the same situation but similar one. There was kind of some mistreatment around management, um, and he's kind of saying to me, you know, is that, is that right? And I was like, it doesn't sound right. It doesn't sound like this should be, you know, how you're treated. Phone ACAS, run it past them. He phoned ACAS, they were like, oh my goodness, this is absolutely unacceptable. And that validation alone, even though he didn't end up pursuing a formal complaint, um, that validation alone gave him the information he needed and confidence he needed to, to move on from that situation. Um, so that would be my— that would be my thoughts. This is a time to address it. It's not acceptable. You are being bullied. Um, I would, I would look into what your legal rights are so you have that understanding. I would then go to your managers and say, the same thing is happening again, I need some support. Um, and if then still nothing is done Then it's up to you whether you want to action those legal rights that, that you have.
Al ElliottExcellent advice. Excellent advice. Um, I think if I remember looking at this Reddit, they were actually American, North American, um, the person who wrote in. So, um, yeah, if, if on the off chance you are listening to this, which would be cool if you were, um, then yeah, go and, go and Google that and I'm sure you'll find someone who can help. If not, and you want to have a chat directly to Leanne, you know, you may not know this, but, uh, Leanne's email address is in It is.
Leanne ElliottYou can— it's actually a link to book a direct meeting with me. So do that and we'll do some research together and figure out what we can.
Al ElliottOkay. I've got question number 3. The reason I chose this is a little bit similar to question number 2, but from a different point of view. So it reads, I'm a department head at a mid-sized company where I spent the last 2 years transforming my team through employee engagement activities. Well done. Regular feedback sessions and wellbeing programmes. The results speak for themselves. We have the highest retention rate in the company, excellent productivity, and my team consistently receives praise from clients. However, this has created an unexpected problem. My other department heads have become openly hostile towards me. They exclude me from cross-departmental meetings, dismiss, dismiss my input, and I've often noticed they try to undermine me in front of senior management. I'm proud of what we've achieved, but this growing division is affecting both my confidence and our ability to work together with other departments. Should I scale back our successful initiatives to keep the peace, or is there another way to handle this workplace jealousy?
Leanne ElliottYou know you shouldn't scale back what you've done. Why would you want to make yourself less successful to fit in? Don't let these people pull you down. Absolutely not. And also, I've— do you know what, this sounds so familiar. I've worked in an organisation like this as well, where you've had very separate departments or, um, teams. And, and there is a lot of jealousy that can, can come from other departments when you're doing particularly well and you're trying something new and different, particularly if that's getting praised by very, very senior leadership. And it's tough actually, because that doesn't necessarily mean you're protected. There are power numbers among, among senior peers. Um, so it is, it's a, it's a really horrible, politically toxic situation to be in. The thing is, is protect your bubble, protect your team and your department. If things are going great, then make sure that they continue to go great and they continue to thrive and your clients continue to love what you do and the organization loves the performance that you're bringing in. That is your number one priority because that is what you can control. What other people are going to think about you, say about you, limited control over that. So I think it's really about One, protecting that. Secondly, I'd be kind of like, well, who's, who's above, who's above these peers of yours and what's their take on it? Because again, this is people intentionally putting up barriers for you to do your job well. And I'm assuming this is that there's not much interdepartmental collaboration needed, which is rare. But as I said, I've worked in organizations that is the case. Um, if there is more collaboration needed, this, this is going to be inhibiting your performance as well, potentially.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo my thought would kind of be to go to the— go to your manager, who I'm assuming is going to be the manager or perhaps a shared manager, um, of your peers, and kind of say, you know, what, what can I— now we've got this all up and running and it's all doing great, what else could I do to integrate myself better with the senior team or bring some of our lessons learned? Not in a patronizing way, but just in a, these are some things we've tried, maybe they could work for you. Or indeed, maybe flipping it and going, this is a problem. Much success we're having. This is a problem that we're still having. Do you think we could call a bit of an all-hands of the senior leaders and maybe just kind of brainstorm some of these, these, um, some solutions to this? There's things that you can do to start to kind of rebuild those connections and camaraderie, but ultimately it's going to very much depend on the reaction of, of your peers and the behaviors that your, your manager is going to tolerate. And this is where it always comes back to behaviors, and that always is why we use it to define culture, um, because you that senior person on your side. Um, so then similarly, it's looking, well, if they're— if they're— are they all excluding you, or do you still have some allies in there? Speaking to them and saying, you know, what can I do better to not irritate this person, or, um, you know, bring some camaraderie back or connection back? Or there's gonna be some data points you're missing in terms of why people are excluding you from things. It might be that they're jealous. It might be that you've annoyed them in some way. It might be this— that they think there's some inequity In terms of what you've been able to do, or the opportunities, the resources you've been given to do what what you you've done. So I think it's kind of staying curious and having those conversations with your senior leader, with your peers, and trying to find out what you can to give a bit more clarity around the situation about the steps you can take. But at the same time, as to that first priority is protecting your team. And this one does really resonate with me. I've been in that situation where. You know, I've, I've led teams that are very separate, but there is crossover and there's comparison that can make it really awkward. We couldn't, we couldn't break down those walls really. We could with certain people in certain, certain areas or certain contracts. We were able to, to create some, some crossover. Um, but largely, and particularly if it was a senior manager, more senior than me with this viewpoint, then it was very hard to change their hearts and minds. So again, it's all about protecting your own really.
Al ElliottFabulous advice as always, Leanne. If you have your own question that you want me to put to Leanne next week, then check the show notes and you'll find a way to get in touch, or just find us on LinkedIn. Talking of LinkedIn, what I'd like you to do is two things. If you've got this far and you've enjoyed it, first of all is just subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, or if you're watching on YouTube, then subscribe on YouTube because every time we get a little notification that someone subscribed, then it makes us very happy. So that would be first thing. Secondly, go and follow Leanne on LinkedIn and go and send her a message and say, well done for making it through 45 minutes of this podcast, because the poor girl is really not well. She's been, she's been getting over a horrific virus or cough or whatever it is. Um, and, uh, and you've been a trooper today. So well done, my love. Well done.
Leanne ElliottThanks, love. If any of those questions I answered, um, wasn't quite up to par and you think, Leanne, I'm not sure that's quite the answer I was looking for, drop me an email. We'll do it again when I'm, um, When I'm back at 100.
Al ElliottSo just a quick reminder, if you like to hear stories of how organizations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then Thursday is the place for you. But if you've enjoyed today with all our difference— there's poor Leanne coughing up in the background. I'm gonna crack on like a trooper though. If you, um, if you've enjoyed today, then you'll love every Tuesday because they're all very similar apart from normally Leanne is at 100% battery, though she's about 4% today. Um, as I've said, that's it for today. Leanne, have you got anything to add, or are you just gonna have to go and get a glass of water?
Leanne ElliottI need to go. Bye.
Al ElliottBye-bye, guys. Bye-bye.