Episode 164 · 21 January 2025 · 51:21
The TikTok Ban, Soft Quitting and 2025 Wellness Trends – This Week in Work 21st January 2025
The TikTok Ban, Soft Quitting and 2025 Wellness Trends – This Week in Work 21st January 2025
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Welcome back to the first This Week in Work of 2025
news roundup#2025#workplace-trends#podcast
Soft quitting: a new term for an old problem
news roundup#soft-quitting#employee-engagement#career
The TikTok ban: what it means for your workplace
news roundup#tiktok-ban#social-media#workplace-policy
2025 wellness trends: unconventional or recycled?
news roundup#wellness-trends#workplace-wellness#2025
Hot Take: Paula Brockwell on why vision and values don't work
Workplace Surgery: standardising management across locations
workplace surgery#management#standardization#multi-location
Workplace Surgery: burnout in engineering teams
workplace surgery#burnout#engineering#data-driven
Workplace Surgery: adapting to AI changes
workplace surgery#ai#adaptation#change-management
Show notes
The TikTok Ban, Soft Quitting and 2025 Wellness Trends – This Week in Work
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) are back in their Tuesday roundup format, digging into the U.S. TikTok ban and what it means for workplace content, the new "soft quitting" term that's subtler and potentially more harmful than quiet quitting, and whether Forbes' "unconventional" 2025 wellness trends are actually all that unconventional. Plus, Paula Brockwell's hot take on why vision and values won't fix your culture, and the World-Famous Workplace Surgery tackles management consistency, engineering burnout, and AI anxiety.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Soft quitting — the new term that's subtler than quiet quitting Dr. Diane Hamilton introduces "soft quitting": when someone's heart isn't in it, but they're still doing the job. Unlike quiet quitting (disengaging from extra effort) or rage quitting (storming out), soft quitting is harder to spot — and potentially more corrosive. Leanne's take? The media loves a new term, but if it helps normalise conversations about disengagement, that's progress. Source →
2. The TikTok ban — what happens when the algorithm goes dark? The U.S. federal ban on TikTok was set to take effect January 19, 2025, unless ByteDance divested its U.S. operations. Al and Leanne break down what "Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversaries Controlled Applications" actually means, the free speech arguments, and the workplace reality: millions of creators, marketers, and businesses built on the platform face a sudden pivot to Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube. Source →
3. 2025 wellness trends — unconventional or recycled? Forbes' Julian Hayes II predicts financial wellness programs, hyper-personalised wellbeing, wellness-focused office design, menopause support, and biophilic design will shape 2025. Leanne's verdict? We've been talking about most of these since 2023. But that doesn't mean they're not worth doing — just don't call them new. Source →
🔥 Paula Brockwell's Hot Take: Why Vision and Values Won't Fix Your Culture
This week's hot take comes from Paula Brockwell, Chartered Occupational Psychologist and founder of The Employee Experience Project. With over 20 years of experience untangling culture challenges, Paula's message is blunt: organisations keep defaulting to vision and values workshops when culture needs transforming — and it never seems to work.
Her alternative? Stop trying to align people around abstract corporate values. Personal values always trump corporate values when they conflict. Instead, build a psychological contract — a fair, balanced deal between employer and employee that reflects what you actually need from each other in your specific context.
More from Paula Brockwell:
- Website: theexproject.com
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/paulabrockwell
💬 World-Famous Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Standardising management across locations: "How do I create consistency in management practices across multiple stores without undermining individual managers' autonomy?" Leanne shares the difference between autonomy and consistency — and an exercise Al invented (allegedly) to help.
- Burnout in engineering teams: Late nights and weekend work are taking their toll. Leanne's advice? Gather the data first — senior leaders want cold, hard numbers, not anecdotes. The HSE Management Standards Survey is a good place to start.
- Adapting to AI changes: A research analyst worried about AI's impact on job security gets actionable steps to future-proof their career — including embracing AI, finding the holes in it, and learning where the human adds value.
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne.
Al ElliottI'm a chartered My name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, welcome back. This is the first of our— well, it's going back to the This Week in Work format, which we had before Christmas. Over Christmas, um, there were— I'm not going to say pre-recorded— there were definitely some planned sessions that we played you. But we're back down to our This Week in Work format, which is essentially the weekly news roundup. So we talk about what's going on in the world of work. We have a hot take, as we always do, from— you're going to love this person. They've been on the pod before. They're definitely a listener favorite. And we have the world-famous weekly workplace surgery where we put your questions to Leanne. Just before we go into that, I just want to just say that if you're listening, if the audio sounds a bit different or the video looks a bit different, it's because we are actually in the middle of Switzerland in a celebrity's house overlooking Lake Geneva, not in our normal studio. So we're kind of making do with a phone and a temporary recorder and all that. But we're back in the studio in a couple of weeks, so it'll be back down to the normal audio. Yeah. Audio quality, maybe not the actual content quality, but—
Leanne ElliottBut you're on the road with us, isn't that exciting? You too are in a celebrity house in Geneva. Have you done all your business, Al? Can we move on to my favorite time of the week?
Al ElliottNo, just really quickly before you do, I need to let you know that if this is your first time listening, then every Thursday we bring you a fantastic interview with an expert around workplace culture. Every Tuesday, this is the format where we— there's basically, it's just us two plus a hot take, like all the things I said. Okay, I'm done. Carry on, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottRight now it is time for my favorite time of the week, and it feels like a while since we've done this. I'm excited. The first news roundup of 2025. Alastair, Dallas, Robert, Elliot, cue that jingle.
Al ElliottI got full named there. That's been a long time since I've been full named.
Leanne ElliottThat'll get cut.
Al ElliottNo, I'm leaving it in. Leanne, what have you got?
Leanne ElliottSoft quitting.
Al ElliottSoft quitting sounds good.
Leanne ElliottNot only— what are we on, the 16th of January, and already we've got a new term knocking around. Apparently soft quitting, it's new and it's worse than quiet quitting, and that was a disaster. So yeah, there's a lot of jargon flying around, but that's what we're here for, to get to the bottom of it. And fun fact, actually, that's how Truth, Lies and Work started, because I was really irritated by the whole quiet quitting thing going on. Anyway, side note. What is soft quitting? Al, any ideas?
Al ElliottSoft quitting, um, well, see, quiet quitting is you just disengaging, not doing it. Um, rage quitting is when you get— when you're angry and you quit. So soft quitting, maybe is it going to find another job before you Before you— I don't know, before you quit your first one?
Leanne ElliottThat's called career cushioning. Oh, we have to— that's another term. I almost swore then. I promised I wouldn't in 2025. Anyway, so yeah, soft quitting. Well, according to Dr. Di-Ann Hamilton, who is a business administration PhD, curiosity expert, and thought leader on the Thinkers50 Radar, soft quitting is when people disengage emotionally from their job. So it's not a loud, obvious rage-quitting type of way, Al, where throw your sandwich across the break room and go, I've had enough. Um, it's much more subtle. Unlike quiet quitting, which, if you can't remember, quiet quitting is when someone does the bare minimum they're contracted to do, which actually just sounds like they're doing the work they're contracted to do, but whatever, apparently people had beef with it. It's not like that. Soft quitting is much harder to spot. So it shows up as small changes, like when someone who has been full of ideas now gives lukewarm responses or avoiding extra effort. So the article says, on the surface they're still meeting expectations, but their enthusiasm and connection to the job have disappeared. So Dr. Hamilton goes on to say that soft quitting is actually worse for business. Why? Well, because quiet quitting is visible. You can address it by resetting expectations perhaps, or clarifying roles. But with soft quitting, the signs are easy to miss until it is too late. So over time, this disengagement quietly erodes team morale, productivity, and even innovation. Dr. Hamilton goes on to say that soft quitting often stems from employees feeling disconnected from their roles, their team, or even their company's mission. And when one person checks out emotionally, it can ripple through the organization, creating a culture of low energy and disengagement. The article does go on to suggest that to combat soft quitting, leaders need to focus on fostering emotional connection and purpose in the workplace.
Al ElliottOur thoughts: So soft quitting is when someone stops putting their all in, is that what we're saying?
Leanne ElliottNo, that's more quiet quitting. So it's not even— so quiet quitting is like that people stop going the extra mile, just do what they're contracted to do. Soft quitting is that they do their job and you might even see them continue to go the extra mile in some circumstances, but their heart's not in it.
Al ElliottOh, so I see. So their heart's not in it. That's difficult because come January, February time, when it's a bit of a depressing time of the year for everyone anyway, I can see people might be mistaking just general malaise and just boredom of January, February with actually soft quitting. I just— right, being honest, I don't think the world needs another catchphrase. I don't think we need, we need yet another way. We just basically say either employees are happy or they're not. There are obviously scales in there, and I'm not a psychologist, full disclosure, You knew that. Um, but I don't know, it just feels like it's another phrase that someone wanted to appear in Forbes, and so they've made up a phrase. Is that unfair?
Leanne ElliottNo offense to you, Dr. Hamilton.
Al ElliottOh, sorry, Dr. Hamilton. Yeah, sorry, sorry, not, not you. I meant other people. You sound like other people.
Leanne ElliottYeah, the media are looking for these types of terms, right? So as experts, you have to speak to them, you comment on them. Maybe you, maybe you coined it. I'm not sure if that was clear in the article, but, um, I think the thing that gets me And this is as a psychologist, from the point of view of a psychologist, is that this isn't a new term. What we're still talking about is disengagement, employee disengagement, which is a well-researched, very understood workplace phenomenon that is a big issue and has been for decades. So bringing in a new term, soft quitting, to explain it, fine, but I feel like we don't always need to reinvent the wheel. Um, and actually, if we understood, took the time to understand the actual science behind it, we might actually start to solve some of the systemic problems that mean that these things are still being talked about. I mean, soft quitting— when there was quiet quitting? 2022?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne Elliott2024, 3 years on. So I'm not sure. I understand that the new terms, you might think, well, if it's more understandable to the layperson, will be more inclined to engage with it and do something about it. Well, I'd argue clearly not if 3 years on we're still finding new ways of talking about employee disengagement. The other thing I'd say as well is that when I was reading the article, I was struggling. And again, this is from a psychologist's— Difficult for you to say. This is from a psychologist's perspective where I want kind of the data to make sure we're talking about the right thing, like we're validated, you know what I mean? So we're talking about what we're actually talking about. Um, and I was reading this and I was like, we're actually talking about burnout here. Because the article says their enthusiasm fades, a bit of exhaustion, their curiosity dwindles, cynicism.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWhy be curious and change things that ain't gonna change anyway? And their emotional connection from their work diminishes. And that's the third symptom of burnout. So it's kinda like, well, is that all we're really talking about? So rather than people kind of being in a point of where they're doing the bare minimum, they're just actually experiencing early stages of burnout. So trying to emotionally disconnect themselves from a point in fear of survival. Um, so I don't, I don't know if I agree that soft quitting is a useful term. I think we already have understandable terms out there to talk about what this article is talking about, which is employees not being connected to the reason of the organization or their role. And that is really important. That's super, super important in employee engagement. And in our model of employee engagement, the RX7, our first 2 foundations are reason and role, because that's what you need to get right first. What is the mission that the organisation wants to deliver? How do we present that in a way that our employees engage with it and get behind it? How does it align with their own individual values as well? And then role— how does my personal role, my personal contribution, drive this mission forward? So yeah, reason and role, absolutely fundamental in terms of employee engagement. Do we need to throw another term in the mix to understand that? I'm not sure.
Al ElliottI agree, I agree. I think that, like I said before, this is not Dr. Hamilton, it's not you, but I think a lot of people do just come up with these ideas of going, oh, we're going to come up with a new word because then I can be the expert in that, or I can get an article in it. Um, look, it boils down to this: either your people are happy or they're not. There's scales in between, but if they're not, it doesn't matter what you call it, you need to be doing something about it. You need to be calling this woman over here, you need to be calling this woman, because she— that's Leanne, by the way. I don't know whether you know where the camera You need to be calling this woman because she will fix it for you.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, enough about me. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottWell, you can't have escaped the fact that TikTok might be going away. This is quite an interesting one because I think by the time we're recording this— before— yes, so this will go out after the deadline. So the deadline quite right, right now is about January 19th, which I think is Sunday.
Leanne ElliottSunday, yeah.
Al ElliottSunday coming. We're recording this a couple of days beforehand, so it'll be Tuesday. So it either will be banned or not. If you've not heard about this, basically there's a company called ByteDance which is a Chinese company. They own TikTok, um, and the, the, the, the US have decided to ban it because something to do with intelligence. Now let me just check my, um, check my notes here. I had to write this down because April 2024, the US passed this act called the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversaries Controlled Applications Act.
Leanne ElliottOnly in America. Say it again for the kids in the back.
Al ElliottProtecting Americans from Foreign Adversaries Controlled Applications Interesting. And the idea, yeah, the idea behind this is targeting apps owned by foreign entities that pose potential national security risks. ByteDance was one of those because they're Chinese. So they are now required to sell TikTok's US operations by, as I said, January 19th, 2025, or the app will face this nationwide ban. Currently, the Supreme Court is reviewing the case to determine whether the ban violates the First Amendment, which is freedom of speech.
Leanne ElliottFreedom of speech.
Al ElliottYep. Um, and the decision is expected likely before, before January, uh, before January 19th, which is Sunday. What happens if it's banned though? Well, this is what's gonna happen. TikTok will suddenly— you won't be able to download it anymore. Um, current users, I think current users will get a notice saying please go to a website to read why you can't use it. I don't think they can continue using it, but it's possible that they might. I'm not sure anyone really knows. And certainly you won't be able to update it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottNow, the other, the other impact on this is that it could have like sort of this global TikTok access, um, implications, because a fair amount of what TikTok does is in the US. So for example, data storage, all that kind of stuff will be in the US. So if it is banned from actually operating in the US, it could mean if you're in the UK or France or Australia, TikTok might not be working just as well, because again, that's where a lot of the data's stored. Stored. Um, so apparently— well, actually, I do know TikTok users will be prompted with a message directing to a website for information and data download should such a shutdown occur. There's a couple of arguments from this. TikTok are basically saying that it violates free speech. As I've said, it lacks the evidence of data misuse by Chinese government. If you're listening from the US, I hope that I'm not being like— we're British, and so we hear your— our version of your news, but it It does seem that Americans are very frightened of China, whereas we don't really think about China much at all unless we're ordering dodgy stuff off the— not that dodgy stuff, but we're ordering cheap stuff off the internet. But they're also saying the timeline is far too tight to comply with this divestment requirements, which is basically to sell that arm. The US government's position is, however, they say that the Chinese laws requiring cooperation with government intelligence pose a legitimate security threat.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Al ElliottWho knows? Who knows? I mean, what this means for all of us really is, uh, first of all, in terms of workplace culture, if TikTok goes away, an awful lot of sort of validation that you— that employees get, a lot of education that they hear about the workplace from people like us— we're not actually that active on TikTok, but if we were, we'd be telling them what a workplace should be like— that's going to go away. Um, there's also— I don't know whether it would have an impact in terms of Um, people might be less likely to use it at work. I don't know. It seems much more likely that for most people they're just going to move to Instagram, um, or to YouTube Shorts. YouTube Shorts, we always joke, but I think it does skew towards older people.
Leanne ElliottTikTok for the over-35s, isn't it?
Al ElliottExactly, exactly. We don't bother with TikTok, but we do watch a fair amount of YouTube Shorts. Be interesting to see how that goes.
Leanne ElliottI think my point from a, from a workplace perspective is that there are going to be people in the workplace who are really anxious about this right now, either because that's how they make your business money, because they'll be doing some marketing or brand awareness on TikTok and they've built up all this massive following over the last couple of years and that's going to go away. And that's heartbreaking for somebody in digital marketing to have built up a really engaged audience on TikTok, you know, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people, and that's just going to go away overnight. That's devastating in terms of your your work over the last few years. So there's gonna be people like that, and there's gonna be other people that maybe haven't quite found their communities in the real world, but they've found their communities in the TikTok world. And the anxiety that's gonna come from that going away potentially, and them losing those communities that help them with their, whatever it is, their wellbeing, their mental health, their sense of identity, that going away is gonna cause a lot of anxiety as well. So I think to those people, I would say, Don't worry, TikTok will, as you said, Al, will be replaced by something else, whether it be Instagram, whether it be, um, whether it be Facebook— not Facebook, what am I saying? Facebook ain't what it used to be.
Al ElliottMeta.
Leanne ElliottUm, is it? Yeah, Instagram, LinkedIn, even dare I say it, um, or YouTube are the obvious ones, right? And I think most of creators actually already have a presence on other channels anyway, so I think all that's going to happen is their audience is going to migrate over to another app. Because ultimately, if it's that personal and community connection that people want— and of course we want as humans, that's how we operate, that's how we work— then all that's going to happen is that community is going to find a new home.
Al ElliottVery well said, Leanne. I think the other thing is the allegations of the Chinese government tracking location via your phone, spying on your data, knowing what you like and what you don't like.
Leanne ElliottGoogle.
Al ElliottUm, I was going to say, as digital marketers, We've been doing that for about 12, 14 years. You'd be terrified about the amount of stuff that Meta knows about you and how I, how I as a marketer can potentially— but of course, that's, that's all slightly different. But, um, it's not that different. Leah, what else you seen that I love?
Leanne ElliottWell, my next one, Unconventional Wellness Trends That Will Shape the Workplace in 2025. You show me that headline, it's going to get my attention. Actually, it didn't. It got my friend Andrew's attention. Andrew Boswell's attention.
Al ElliottHello, Andrew.
Leanne ElliottHi, Andrew. Um, and he sent it to me and I was like, oh, interesting. Um, so yes, January, of course everyone's looking for a prediction, everyone has a prediction. We had our own as well. We did it in 2 episodes. If you haven't checked it out yet, 157 and 159. That's right, we did 2 parts. We also shared our predictions for 2024 and what we got right before we dove into our 2025 with the help of lots of really fabulous experts, including— who do we have on, Al? Johnny Dumas.
Al ElliottGo back and listen to it. They're all, they're all brilliant.
Leanne ElliottSo anyway, these unconventional predictions comes from an article by Julian Hayes II, a wellness entrepreneur and podcaster in Forbes magazine. Al, no, nothing.
Al ElliottJulian, welcome to the show.
Leanne ElliottSo I'd love your thoughts on this, Al. I'm just going to go through the trends for you, see what you think. So unconventional prediction number 1: financial wellness will center stage. So with financial stress affecting job performance, companies will step up by offering personalized finance coaching, AI budgeting tools, and education programs. Addressing financial anxiety will be seen as key to reducing burnout and improving overall loyalty.
Al ElliottJulian Haynes II, your father Julian Haynes should be ashamed of you because that is not unconventional. That's conventional. We've been— that's something that's been talked about for 3 or 4 years. Julian, if you're listening, go back and check out our episodes. We've got one from about 18 months ago from the CEO of Octopus Money. We've got one from about 16 months ago with Sir Kerry Cooper. No, this is, this is, this is a trend, but this is not unconventional.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think we first reported on financial wellbeing in 2023, Julian.
Al ElliottSo sorry about that.
Leanne ElliottSorry about that. Anyway, but that's only the first one. I've got 5. Okay. Number 2, hyper-personalised wellness programmes. The one-size-fits-all approach to employee well-being will disappear. AI and machine learning will drive wellness programs tailored to individual needs, covering everything from mental health to nutrition and sleep. A more personalized approach will create happier, more predictive employee— more productive employees.
Al ElliottYeah, I mean, to be fair, fairly unconventional. We have talked about it before, but then we're in this world, so we have talked about AI coaching. We've talked about people— AI being able to— and these wearables being able to track how feel and then be able to potentially alert someone that you're not, you're not at your best for your work. Um, I, yeah, I think that's relatively unconventional. What do you think, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think the personalization isn't. I think we've been talking about that since about 2023 as well. I think the integration with AI and technology, yes, but that was one of your predictions for 2024, Al.
Al ElliottIt was, it was way ahead of the curve.
Leanne ElliottUh, prediction number 3, office design that fosters well-being. Workplaces will prioritize wellness-focused design. Think biophilic elements like natural light and greenery, better air quality, and ergonomic spaces. These thoughtful updates will boost creativity, reduce stress, and improve overall morale.
Al ElliottUm, no. We went to, um, Clerkenwell, which is a, um, basically a design— it's called Clerkenwell Design Week, but it tends to— the people we spoke to around office design, and this is going back, oh God, this will be 2 years in May. And that was the key message behind it. People were working really hard to ensure that the office was a nice place to be. That was right at the time where no one wanted to go in the office. Now we've got some RTO mandates— that's return to office, if you hadn't— not that I know that, I had to ask what that meant. So we've had all that, so people are forced back to the office a little bit more. I think people are thinking more about how to make it a nicer place. It's not new, it's not unconventional, but I think it's still fair enough. He's got one of the 3 right. It's going to be a trend.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think that's the thing, isn't it, is that these are maybe trends that are going to hit in 2025. Because I think whilst we've, we've been talking about them for a couple of years, it's been a trend in our world. Has it been a trend in corporate? Maybe not to the same extent. So fair enough, Julian, we'll wind our necks in. Um, Dr. Craig Knight, by the way, if you're interested in learning more about how, um, office environments can impact mood and productivity, he's the one to follow.
Al ElliottAlso got a beautiful speaking voice.
Leanne ElliottBeautiful speaking voice. Yeah, Dr. Craig Knight. Um, trend number 4. Okay, menopause support becomes mainstream. With 20% of the workforce experiencing menopause, companies will invest in tailored policies and resources such as flexible schedules and specialized health support. This will improve inclusivity and reduce productivity losses.
Al ElliottSee, part of me goes, that's not particularly unconventional. A part of me goes, well, maybe it is, because we've had quite a few people coming on talking about menopause and women's health, particularly of a a certain age range, which does include those kind of perimenopause and many menopause. We've had quite a few experts on like that, and it does— sadly, I think it is a little unconventional because I don't think many, particularly smaller businesses, think about it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, fair enough. Again though, I think it's a conversation that's been had. This is— this has been going on a few years. I mean, all the celebrity books we've had as well the last couple years, but Fair enough, we're talking about a workplace trend. But I think if— I just think that unconventional means it's going to be like, whoa, like that came out of like completely left field, no one saw that coming. And it's like, well, no, there's been people banging down doors to get this introduced to workplaces for the last 2 years. Um, but yes, the trend, maybe 2025 is the year it'll hit.
Al ElliottOkay, so after this very, very short break, we are going to bring you the hot take from an amazing woman who's been on the pod before. Her name is Paula Brockwell. You know her, she's an organizational psychologist. She was She, she worked at Robertson Cooper, which is like the place in the UK for workplace, and she's telling me why she hates values and why they make her feel sick. Join me after the break.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes It'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Leanne ElliottKeep that in. Welcome back. As regular listeners will now know, every week we ask a workplace expert expert for their hot take on the world of work. We want spicy, we want unpopular opinions, we want things that are gonna really surprise us, knock us off our chairs perhaps. Um, and this week, um, I think we might just have done this. Welcome please again to the show, Paula Brockwell, who is a chartered occupational psychologist and founder of the Employee Experience Project. I know this is going to be good. Paula, what is your hot take?
Al ElliottThe thing that I see happening in the world, which I just think is absolutely potty, is organizations using vision, values, and purpose as a way to control their culture. Like there's some sort of— it's some sort of magical thing that if we just have some words that everybody agrees to on a conceptual level, that suddenly everybody's behavior is going to shift.
Leanne ElliottSo for me, it amazes me that particularly whenever cultures need transformed, that everybody goes in a room and has a lovely fluffy conversation about how it should be around here without really considering the practicalities of how it actually can be around here, given our context, next, or how it needs to be around here, given what the business achieves.
Al ElliottAnd I just find it amazing that businesses just keep defaulting to that process, given that it just never seems to work or stick. So it only really works in places where people are already living a really consistent set of values, and you can use that stuff to put a bow around it.
Leanne ElliottAnd I don't understand why we keep going, and big consultancies keep saying it's a good idea, and businesses keep doing it, because it doesn't work. So what does work? Because I'm sure there's business leaders now going, whoa, wait a minute. Everyone's talking about purpose and values. What am I, what am I meant to do to create a really cool culture?
Al ElliottSo, the thing we've got to first of all acknowledge is that personal values always trump corporate values when it comes to driving individual behaviour. As individuals, we will always do what feels right to us in the moment. Well, generally we'll do what feels right to us in the moment, unless we're doing some sort of massive environmental adoption. So, I think Understanding that you can't manufacture an organizational value. You can't, particularly if it's not one that's living already. I think where corporate values or collective values come to life is when you've brought people together who fundamentally have the same beliefs and drivers. Then you can name that and call that an organizational value because there's already consistency there. One of the things that I really see is that in organizations where where you've already selected and you've already attracted people who believe and value the same things, then those collective culture or those collective values can work because you're bringing people together and you're really just putting a badge on the things that unite them already. I think where it really doesn't work is whenever you have a disparate bunch of people who feel and value and believe a different thing, that if you just try and get them to believe the same thing together, it's just not going to work.
Leanne ElliottThey're valuing different things and their personal drivers will pull them.
Al ElliottSo, Yeah.
Leanne ElliottIf you really want to unite people, you've got to do a few things, really.
Al ElliottYou've got to understand what do you actually need in your context from a behavioral point of view and an attitudinal point of view to drive your business performance forward. So start thinking about business drivers rather than purely thinking about talent and experience drivers. You've got to do that first if you want to be honest about the deal that you can give people and sign up to stuff that actually is possible for you to deliver. Because if you're just doing all this stuff that's about a cozy experience for your employees because you've started with What do we want it to be like around here?
Leanne ElliottThen you might not be able to deliver that anyway, because your context needs you to be something else. So, be honest about what it is, what are the boundaries in which you can deliver anything or sign up to how you're going to make it be around here.
Al ElliottDo that business review first in terms of what you need, and then have a think about from a talent point of view, well, what else do we need to do to make sure that our talent want to make that stuff happen? So, an honest conversation about how we need it to be around here from a performance point of view or from a business outcome point output point of view, and then talk to your people about if you've got to deliver this, what do you need from us to make it happen?
Leanne ElliottSo I think it's much healthier to talk about what we would call a psychologist, a psychological contract. What is it that I'm expecting to give and what is it that you can get? Or, you know, what do I need from you? What am I expecting to get from you and what can I give as an employer?
Al ElliottSo building that deal and making sure that that deal is fair and balanced is a much better way of doing it. Because if you know what the deal is, it's a much more practical, this is what you're getting, this is what you're giving. So you can start to look at your business and make sure that you're setting it up to deliver those things. So be more pragmatic, be more tangible, be more realistic about it. And then think about, well, are we creating the organizational environment to do that? Do our systems and processes help us do that? Are our leaders set up to behave in a way that helps us do that? Have we built a resourcing model or a team structure that means that you really are going to feel like that? Have we set strategic priorities that mean that the type of workload that we're saying we'll sign you up for, the type of pressure profile that we're saying is possible to give you, is actually realistic, so you can start to really look at your business and make operational decisions that influence how it feels and help you deliver that deal. So just stop having the fluffy conversations because they don't lead anywhere and you can't do anything with them.
Leanne ElliottWhere can our listeners find you to find out more about your work?
Al ElliottCome and find me on LinkedIn, but you can also look on our website, which is, um, www.theexproject.com, and there's loads of free resources and the like in there, webinars, stuff that just talks about, um, kind of pragmatic tools to take this stuff forward. There's a term there that Paula used that I really want you to get to the bottom of. I heard it before, I'm not sure I know what it means. Um, explain like I'm 5. Psychological contract.
Leanne ElliottIt's basically doing what you say you're gonna do. So for example, it could be that you offer a flexible working policy as part of your interview, and then I start my job and it turns out you don't have a flexible working policy. That's broken the psychological contract. Um, and that can apply to lots of different kind of rules and norms around, around the business, but it's basically breaking promises is probably the easiest way to, to define it. Yeah, psychological contract though, I love it, and I don't think that's been talked about very much at all over the last few years, but it's a huge focus of my master's program. I actually had a whole book on the psychological contract. I sent Paula a photo afterwards. I was like, oh my God, I just found this. Um, I think I want to bring it back in 2025.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, so yeah, stay tuned. I think we'll talk about the psychological contract a little bit more.
Al ElliottI like it, I like it. I understand it, and now I can quite confidently use the term.
Leanne ElliottYou have breached my psychological contract, sir.
Al ElliottHow dare you, sir. Anyway, um, okay, so before we move on, the last thing I wanted to really just, just reiterate or sort of underline was the fact that, um, I think what Paula's great at doing is herself just not using fluffy words and then also telling other people not to use fluffy words. I think the problem is if you go on to any kind of like— you search the hashtag workplace culture on LinkedIn and oh my God, there is so much— no, I'm not swearing— so much rubbish that people just use because they're trying to use these fancy words. Same when you're like creating your values, for example. Then you sit there and you go, we are a solutions-orientated person something family, and it's just a load of rubbish, doesn't make any sense. It's Kind of like akin to talking about a marathon, running a marathon, talking about it all the way through January, February, and they're all the time eating Mars bars and, um, and fries and not actually doing anything about it. So I basically, I want to get rid of these— or Paula does, and I'm with her— want to get rid of these fancy words. And we basically want to just do actions, not say stuff that makes us sound clever.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. And that's what I love about Paula as a As a psychologist, as a practitioner, she makes it very accessible. She's very data-driven, behavior-led, and that's exactly what we need to drive the culture change that is needed in the workplace, the systemic change that is needed. So yeah, I'm, I'm— Paula, I'm with you. Out of the fluff, in with the data, um, and let's bring back psychological contract in 2025.
Al ElliottI love it, I love it. Okay, so it's now time for my favorite time of the week.
Leanne ElliottBefore we go on to our favorite time of the week, sorry, sorry, sorry, Paula, to find out more about Paula, and you do, check her out on LinkedIn. We'll leave a link in the show notes, or check out her website. Just Google The EX Project and you'll find all the tools and resources you need to transform your culture. And again, we'll leave a link to her website in the show notes.
Al ElliottFabulous. Okay, so it really is my favorite time of the week now. It is time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. I'm sure you know this by now, but Leanne is a Certified— no, not certified, she's a chartered— I should know this— a chartered occupational psychologist.
Leanne ElliottI leveled up in 2024, Al.
Al ElliottShe did, she did. Oh dear, this is not a good start. Um, and, um, and she is an expert in workplace culture, and she's here to answer your questions. Okay, question number 1: my managers have gone rogue. This is the situation. Uh, this person writes and says, I've got a small chain of specialty food stores with 60 employees on 3 levels. It's grown significantly, but I'm noticing huge differences in how each store operates and how engaged the team is on each store. One store has amazing energy and practically runs itself, while another has high turnover and constant complaints. Each store manager has developed their own way of doing things, from how they handle scheduling and time off to how they train new staff and run team meetings. I initially loved the idea of giving managers autonomy, but the inconsistency. consistency is causing problems. For example, some staff have been transferred to— have been asked to transfer to the better store. And I've heard comments like, if only our manager was more like Sarah at the north branch. I'm hoping that's not— that isn't the real name. What's really concerning is our customer satisfaction scores vary widely between locations, even though it's supposed to be one brand offering the same experience. I'm going to infer that you mean that in the less well-run, they're lower. I'm guessing, because otherwise that would be a curious thing. Should I standardize a management approach or should I do something else? Lee, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYes, you should standardize your management approach. I mean, I think there's a difference between autonomy and just going, go, good luck to you. Um, autonomy can still come with boundaries. It can still come with a framework of what's expected in terms of operational processes or, or culture or brand. Um, it can still come with with, with constraints. Autonomy just means that you have the ability to, um, to control how you work, when you work, and that you have the ability to influence the things that you do at work. So I think autonomy— maybe we've, we've probably run a bit too hard and fast with autonomy. And what you found is what would typically happen in a scenario, just by statistics. You've got one person who's done really well kind of flower, and probably because they've got the capability, and the other 2 that, that, that haven't so much, or one that hasn't and one somewhere in the middle. Um, yeah, we've, we've not really kind of factored in capability or indeed the support that people might need. So I think there needs to be some standardization made, however with caution. And this is where you get curious. And I think the first thing is to go to the store that's doing really, really well and understand what they're doing Um, that's working really well in terms of customers, in terms of people, in terms of operations, all of that stuff, um, and understand the best practice, why it's working, why people like it. Then go to the other store and do not go, well, they do it like this over here, so actually you just want to do like this and copy them and it'll be fine. Because what you don't know at this point necessarily is some of maybe the unique challenges that this store is having. Maybe it's in a different area with a very different customer Maybe some of the, the product matching isn't really right based on where that store is, or they have more challenges around transportation, people getting to work, or finding talent. You didn't really say kind of where in the country these, um, or geographically how different these locations are. So I think you need to go in and figure out what isn't working, what are the challenges, and what support does that manager need. And it may well be that some of the solutions that the high-performing store has got in place may work for the other store. It may be it needs an entirely different approach, um, but at this point we're kind of too far down the road to completely take away the autonomy, um, and just standardize everything as Store A is doing it without having some, some probably negative impacts in terms of performance, productivity, and probably turnover as well. Um, maybe that's what you I don't know. I don't know. Um, so yeah, I think get curious what's working in the store that's doing well, what's working still that's not working, and trying to find some ways to bridge, um, the two to, to kind of drive that turnaround in, in the store that's underperforming. Put a really short timeline on this because obviously underperformance can't, can't carry on for long. I'd say give yourself maybe even just 2 weeks, 2-3 weeks to have these conversations, understand what's going on, understand what the problem is, and then figure out a way to, to kind of bring it all together. The good The good news is you— it sounds like you've got the solutions in your business. It's just about understanding whether actually those solutions are going to work. And I've been there in an organization where we've been the high-performing contract and we've been the, the lower-performing contract, um, and that's because each region had its unique challenges and unique approaches, and that needs to be understood before the solutions come in. So I'd say bravo on autonomy. Your heart was in the right place. The execution was probably a little bit bold. or lack support. Um, and now it's just a case of kind of re-engineering that a little bit to get the support frameworks in place and a little bit of standardization so that people can still be innovative and creative within their roles. But there are certain standards that you can monitor and uphold in the interests of your business.
Al ElliottFabulous answer. Um, I think there's one thing which— an exercise which Leanne implements, uh, or invented a couple of times, I think, which is you go to somewhere that's underperforming and then you just say right Okay, we're having an afternoon where you just tell us all the things that that you don't like about this place, all things you would improve. And it's like there's no retribution. There's no like you know oh well so and just said this. This is an afternoon where you can literally say whatever's on your mind, or you can do it anonymously if you prefer. And and that will probably pull out a lot of the issues in some of the underperforming stores. Also might be interesting to do that on the on the on the performing stores because it might be that you can find you know that maybe it's ruled by fear. We don't know what Sarah's doing up there. Maybe Sarah's got some. some dark— I can't say that word— dark rubbish going on up there. I don't know, but I think the more you know, the better and the easier it is to fix that thing.
Leanne ElliottYep, absolutely. Did we have any more letters over the holiday period?
Al ElliottWe did. I checked my postbox and it was bulging. My sack was bulging. Um, moving on. So question— so this is, this is question number 2. Management think it's going well, we know it's not. So here is the question. Over the 6 months, I've noticed a concerning trend in our engineering team's well-being. We've shifted from a healthy work rhythm to what feels like a constant sprint. Team members are regularly online late in the evening, send Slack messages on weekends, and look increasingly exhausted in our stand-ups. What really bothers me is that on paper everything looks good. Our productivity metrics are great, we're hitting our sprint goals, and management keeps praising our dedication. But I see the reality. People with their cameras off during meetings because they're burnt out, taking sick days more often, and private messages from junior people asking if this pace is normal. Our CTO talks about how we need to maintain momentum to stay competitive, but there's just— pressure just seems almost unsurmountable. As a senior team member, I feel a responsibility to speak up, but I'm unsure how to approach this. Management seem focused on our strong delivery metrics And I worry that by raising these concerns, we might be seen as complaining or not being a team player. Lee, how would you cope with that?
Leanne ElliottGather the data. Get the data. You've got the anecdotal data, and that's great, but senior leaders want cold, hard numbers. There's going to be many different data points, as you've referenced, in terms of work performance. And I think sometimes we lean a bit too hard on productivity, whereas performance is a much more Holistic kind of data set to look at, such as absenteeism, increases in, in, in sick days. You could even maybe see a slight slowing in speed of innovation, or people are getting quieter in meetings. There's lots of different things that are going to indicate that stress is starting to get unmanageable, or it's been sustained— this pace has been sustained at such a, such a long time that it's starting to impact people's health. So I would say gather— see what data you can gather internally that's just recorded beyond the kind of the anecdotal. If there isn't much, I'd say— if you look, this is a team leader, right?
Al ElliottYes, that's right.
Leanne ElliottI would say there's a really— we talked about this before— the HSE Management Standards Survey. It measures the psychosocial factors in the workplace that are impacting stress levels. Run that with your team, ask them, and just explain it. Say, look, I'm not sure that this pace is really sustainable. I'm starting to get concerned that actually if we keep doing this, our productivity will start to drop because we're only human. Um, it would be really helpful to me to kind of get a little snapshot in terms of how everyone is feeling. Ask them to do it anonymously, even do it together as a group if you've got that psychological safety within your team to do it. And you might, you might well have it. Um, to just get an idea of kind of where people are at, because if you can go to your senior leaders and go, look, we've, we've done really well. We've sustained this level for a long time, and the cracks are starting to show because it's just not sustainable. Here is what I found out, and here are some of the solutions. So, for example, maybe there's a rotation that you can do between apartments, perhaps. So there's kind of like this high intensity is kind of like that, that intensity moves around different team members. It could be that you can look at, um, changing some processes or streamlining some things or bringing AI into certain processes. And again, you'll want to talk to your team about this as well, that what, what might help to lighten their workload. It might be that actually you need some extra resources. There's, there's going to be lots of different solutions depending on exactly what you find from either in terms of reducing workload or increasing resources. That essentially is what it comes down to. And by reducing workload, I also mean kind of improving efficiency. The thing I would hope is that as a team leader in charge of the highest performing team in the business, let's use the best practice example, is that you've got the respect and status needed for that senior management team, leadership team, to listen to you when you say that something needs to, needs to shift. But at this point, I'd say take step one, take your anecdotal data into hard data, and then from that, try and develop some solutions that might ease it. Once you have Then think about going to your leadership team.
Al ElliottYeah, good answer. And I think also it's clear that you are destined for good things, the person who wrote this in, because, you know, currently you're a team leader, but you care very much about your team, and you also are very aware of what corporate— if you're using that speak— what the management want out of you. So you clearly— I think you're destined for great things. This is a great way for you to learn how to overcome this this problem, there's gonna be lots and lots of other problems as a manager in the future. Um, I think the key thing that we're getting out of this is that Leanne's pointing out is that you can foresee a problem. You know the team better than management. You can foresee there's going to be a big blowup where potentially people quit, or, you know, everyone goes off sick and then just productivity just, just bombs. Most senior management teams want to hear that. Um, but they, like Leanne said, if you go up there backed with hard data, then, then there's a good chance they'll actually listen to you. Just go there and say, oh well, I think we're going to crash and burn, that might be more difficult, a difficult ask. Okay, next question is a real-life AI is coming for my job situation. Are you ready?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottAll right, this person writes, I work as a research analyst. Well, that's difficult for me to say.
Leanne ElliottAnalyst.
Al ElliottAnalyst, that's the word. The first 3, the 4 letters threw me off, didn't quite know how to say it. First, as a research analyst in an intelligence firm, we've just started implementing AI tools that management says will enhance our capabilities. While I understand the need to stay competitive, I'm becoming increasingly anxious about what this means for my role and my team's future. Initially, they presented the AI tools as assistants to help us process data faster and generate preliminary reports. I think we'd all see where this is going. However, I'm seeing these tools become more and more sophisticated Every single week. Tasks that used to take me days to complete, like analyzing market trends or creating competitor landscapes, are now being done in hours by the AI. Even more worryingly, in our last team meeting, our director praised how the AI-generated reports needed minimal human oversight. My colleagues and I have noticed some of our routine tasks have already been completely automated. No one's talking about it, but there is this underlying tension. in every single meeting about, uh-oh, what's next? I want to genuinely embrace AI. I want to stay valuable to the company. But should I be looking for a new job? Are they just going to replace me? Leigh, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYes, yes, and yes. Yes, embrace AI. Yes, find a way to add value to your company in this new AI-augmented world. And 3, yes, you should be looking for a new job.
Al ElliottWhy? I know that you said that with an element of comedy, but why number 3? Because I definitely agree with number 1st, 2, but why should— why in this specific, specific situation should the person be looking for a new job?
Leanne ElliottAnd because it sounds like it's too far gone. There's lots of— do you know what I mean? In terms of— it's red flags, isn't it? It's red flags. Red flags is that everything's been automated at a pace— the time saving is significant. Something that took them weeks now takes hours. That's significant. Um, the fact that it's all managers can talk about, the fact they're actually saying it needs minimum human contact— there's red flags there that makes me go, okay, because for me to embrace AI and figure out a way that I can still add value, my question is, do you have the time within your organization to do that? And hopefully you do, and prioritize those as well. Prioritize all 3. Um, Um, but you need that, you need that cushion, I think, because it sounds very much like this organization is very bullish on AI. You don't know, maybe they're just excited about the implementation and, and they're actually just trying to figure out how to retrench people or put the people in new roles. Um, but I think it would be naive to think that, that you've got the time if you don't know what the time scale is. So I think just a little bit of protecting yourself is, is smart. Um, equally, this is a good time for some what we call job crafting, which is looking at kind of, well, if these now tasks that I'm used to been doing and now being taken away from me, what tasks do I want to replace them? Maybe you hated doing the market analytics that took you weeks to do, and actually now you can add value by adding more interpretation to what the AI has pulled out. There's going to be lots of different ways that you can add value. So I'd look at that and focus on that. And as part of that, craft the job that would be required in the organization amidst this massive uptick in AI. And that will require some education on yourself as well around the AI tools that you're using. But I think you can't control what they've already decided to do in terms of AI. And for me, there just seemed to be a few too many red flags in that question alone. And what was that, 300 words? And you'll have a lot more data in terms of the, the day-to-day life to not just think about maybe getting your CV updated and, and getting your LinkedIn updated as well. What is it you say, Al? Hope for peace, prepare for war.
Al ElliottI think that was Sun Tzu rather than me, but, um, yes, that's definitely a, definitely decent strategy. The other thing to consider is this could be an opportunity. Um, if you now watch them implement AI in an analyst Am I saying that right? Analyst and analystist.
Leanne ElliottAnalyst.
Al ElliottAnalyst. Yeah, analyst job. Then if you start to see that, then you could perhaps learn a bit more about AI, and maybe that could be your next job is a company, a research company who wants to implement AI. You go, well, I know how to do it because I watched it happen in my previous company. Like the answers, potentially educate yourself a little bit more. There's so many free courses on AI. I know Nvidia do some, Google do some, Stanford do some. Microsoft do some— just an hour a night just doing a course on AI, and you'll learn so much about it. You're also going to learn its limitations. That's the other thing. If you can be really, really— if you know how AI is working, how it's supposed to work, and you also know how the existing work was being done, you can potentially find holes in what the AI is doing. And you might be able to— and especially in your line of work, you need to be so thorough. Imagine if you were actually the data checker for AI. Then you've just— then your job is like bulletproof. You're never going to lose your job because you're the person who actually goes through what the AI response and ensures that, um, that it's accurate. So I don't think all is lost as, as it might have sounded when Leanne said yes, I'm looking for a job.
Leanne ElliottOh, I'm sorry.
Al ElliottNo, no, I did— I'm joking, I'm joking. But, um, I think that yes, you potentially— your position might be in, um, in danger, but there's lots of options available to you. And I think that maybe just taking that step up and being the AI supervisor, or the supervisor of all the AIs, could well be a good, a good jump.
Leanne ElliottYeah, that's a good shout. And particularly if, as you say, if you can find the holes in it and take that— and this is also where you're going to have to be really visible in terms of senior leaders— um, if you find that hole and you can go to your senior leader and say, hey, um, so I noticed that the AI thing popped out this, I didn't think it was quite right, so I looked into it and actually it's like this. So what I did is I tweaked the prompt that it was giving to AI and now it's working looking. They're gonna be like, oh, right. And that's where you need to find that unique value that you can add. Also, go back and listen to our predictions episode, the first one. I think it's 157.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo many predictions there in terms of AI, in terms of its application, um, in terms of how our humanness will come into play a lot more if we find the right way to do it and add value. Um, agentic AI is the next thing according to Oliver Yonchev. Maybe do some learning around that. Al's right, there's lots of opportunity, but I think if, if we're just being very, very balanced in terms of risk, there's no harm in doing all 3 things at the same time. Um, educate yourself, find new ways to add value, and get that CV updated.
Al ElliottFabulous. Good luck with everything. Okay, that's the end of another Tuesday episode, so we will catch you again on Thursday where we've got a fantastic interview Um, I'm not going to spoil it. I'm just going to say that if you're looking to make substantial changes in 2025, this is the interview for you. You're going to absolutely love it. Um, if you've got a question for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, then check out the show notes. You'll find a way in which you can get in touch, and I'll put that question to Leanne, either anonymously or if you want to be on the radio. Look, Mum, I'm on a podcast. Then you can, uh, you can give us your full name.
Leanne ElliottHey, that would be fun if you want to come on a recording. We haven't thought about that.
Al ElliottThere you go, there's an idea for 2025.
Leanne ElliottCome on the show.
Al ElliottI'd love that. We'd love that. Okay, so we'll see you, um, on Thursday where we'll be yet another place in northern Italy. Follow along on the journeys. Cool. And then we'll see you the following week in another place in northern Italy, and then we're back in the studio, and then we'll go home. We promise, we promise we're going home. Don't worry, we've brought the dogs with us. We're not just— we don't leave them home with a bit of water and a couple of snacks. So thanks again for listening. If you've liked this, then please consider leaving us a review. What else do they need to do, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottSubscribe however you subscribe on, on the app you're listening or watching on. Leave a comment. We've had some lovely comments on our, on our YouTube recently, which has been nice to interact with you all. Um, anything else? I don't think so. Be kind to yourself. January can be a tough one. Um, hopefully some of the conversation we've had brought you over the last few weeks in terms of Bruce Daisley on resilience, Dr. Brian Martin on anger, um, Cooper on financial wellbeing will give you some, some support. And we always leave resources in the show notes. So do check that out if January is feeling like a bit of a struggle.
Al ElliottAnd don't forget, January, you're probably— what, when this goes out, you'll only have about sort of 9 days left of January. So you'll be absolutely fine. You can do this. You've got this. We'll see you next week.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye.
Al ElliottOkay, our next question is all about— don't know, hang on one second, let me just get my head around it.