Episode 171 · 13 February 2025 · 41:47
The Science of Resilience with Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier
Featuring Marie-Helene Pelletier
The Science of Resilience with Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier
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Defining resilience: a state, not a trait
interview#resilience#definition#psychology
Why resilience matters in the 2025 world of work
interview#resilience#future-of-work#workplace
How to know when you need to build your resilience
interview#resilience#self-assessment#burnout
Approaching resilience strategically: the SWOT analysis method
interview#resilience#strategy#swot-analysis
Can one pillar compensate for another?
interview#resilience#habits#compensation
Does investing in these habits work after burnout?
interview#burnout#recovery#resilience
How leaders can bring this into the workplace
interview#leadership#resilience#workplace
A real-world example of a leader using The Resilience Plan
Common mistakes leaders make when implementing resilience strategies
interview#leadership#mistakes#resilience
One key message and where to find Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier
Show notes
The Science of Resilience — with Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier
Guest: Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier — psychologist, executive coach, keynote speaker, and author of The Resilience Plan. With both a PhD in psychology and an MBA, she's spent her career helping organizations treat workplace mental health and resilience as a business strategy.
Resilience isn't something you either "have" or you don't. It fluctuates. It can be built. And — here's the part most leaders miss — it can be planned.
Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier joins Leanne to break down the science of resilience: the four pillars that actually move the needle (movement, nutrition, sleep, and relationships), why resilience planning should look a lot like business planning, and how leaders can run a SWOT analysis on their own energy. No fluff, no "just do yoga" — just practical, evidence-based strategy for showing up as your best self, at work and beyond.
Top 3 Takeaways
Resilience is a strategy, not a given. It's not a personality trait you're born with — it's a skill that fluctuates and can be deliberately built, just like any other capability.
Plan it like a business. Use the tools you already know — SWOT analysis, strategic planning, regular reviews — and apply them to your own energy, sleep, nutrition, and relationships.
Small changes compound. You don't need a complete life overhaul. Fifteen more minutes of sleep, one better food choice, a slightly earlier wind-down — these add up to huge impact over time.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, welcome, welcome. If you are brand new, then welcome. I think you'll like it here. I hope you will. Give us your comments, we, we want to hear from you. Um, if you've listened to Tuesday episodes, if you listened before, then you'll know we're back in Mostar, back in our studio. Not quite finished, you'll probably tell from the If you're on YouTube, it's almost done. We've got a big pile of acoustic panels out there. All we've got to do is screw them on the wall. Yeah, so that's where we're up to.
Leanne ElliottSo with that, we're not able to close a door because we have various like wood bits knocking around. So if you can hear a little tip tap, that's Bobby Bean, our little min pin. So sorry about that, but you're used to, you're used to the chaos last few episodes really, aren't you? It's fine.
Al ElliottYeah, it'd be fine. It'd be fine. It'd be fine. And it wouldn't be our kind of pod if we hadn't got something weird going on, would it?
Leanne ElliottAnyway. Absolutely not. And as regular listeners will also know, every Tuesday we bring you our This Week in Work, which includes our hot take from a guest expert. It includes our world-famous weekly workplace surgery that Al and I have only just learned how to say after almost a year. And what else do we do? Oh, we do the news roundup as well. There's not that much going on at the moment, particularly in people and culture, so it's becoming a bit of a struggle. If only someone could cancel like DEI or something.
Al ElliottYeah, looking at you, Google, I think I read this week. Anyway, that's—
Leanne ElliottMark Zuckerberg can get in the bin as well, but we'll talk about that on Tuesday. Yes, that's Tuesday. Um, it's Thursday, which means we bring you a very special guest.
Al ElliottYes, Leanne sat down with the amazing Marie-Helene, who brings together 2 worlds that don't often collide. There's the academic rigour of psychology— she's got a PhD, she's fancy— and the practical reality of running a business, because she's got an MBA. She spent her career helping organisations crack the code on workplace mental health, working across private organisations, public organisations, and governance before starting her own business. But what makes her really interesting is her take on resilience. Now, I know what you're thinking. Not another conversation about resilience, right? But stick with me here because Marie-Helene approaches, approaches it like a business strategy, which as a business owner myself, I actually love. She's written a book called The Resilience Plan that breaks down how to tackle this stuff in a way that actually makes sense. Leanne has been looking forward to this conversation for ages, and I can really see why. Whether you're running a business or you're leading a team or just trying to keep your head above water in today's workplace, You're going to want to grab a pen for this one. So let's join the interview and learn how to build our resilience.
Leanne ElliottMH, welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. For our listeners, if any of them haven't heard of you, would you mind introducing yourself? Tell us who you are, what you do, and maybe what you're famous for.
Marie-Helene PelletierI'm an executive coach, work psychologist, author, and keynote speaker, and my background is both in psychology and business. So I've done a PhD, I've done an MBA, and I've worked for all my career in workplace mental health in private organisation, public organisations, in governance, and also now on my own, my own business, where I advise professionals and leaders on ways to improve, maintain, sustain their resilience in a strategic way.
Leanne ElliottI want to dive into that, but I want to start with a definition first of all before we, we get specific. What does resilience mean To you, and why do you think it's so important in today's workplaces?
Marie-Helene PelletierI think it is a great place to start, Al, and I think I'm going to even step back one notch further. And because we hear a lot, as we should I would argue, about mental health in general and in the workplace, right? And if we step back on definition of even mental health from the World Health Organization, our ability to cope with stresses of life, realize our abilities, learn, you know, learn well, work well, and contribute, right, to our community. If we look at the definition of resilience, and there are many in the academic literature, but one that most researchers and practitioners use, and the one I use as well, is our ability to go through adversity and come out even stronger.
Al ElliottRight.
Marie-Helene PelletierSo there is this element of the stressors of life, basically both acute and chronic. But, and then the resilience aspect adds this component of growth, of learning, right? And so if we're going to want to bring our best both professionally and even personally in our personal lives, cuz it's all connected, right? We don't, there isn't a lane specific for work and a lane specific for personal. We will want to invest proactively in our resilience. It's going to help with everything.
Leanne ElliottAnd why is it so important today in the world of work we're operating in, in 2025?
Marie-Helene PelletierI would say always been important. We're talking more about it, and I love that. And we're also talking more about it, I think, because on one hand, it's become a word we're used to. On the other hand, we're still not Fabulous at it, right? So we need to talk about it more. The other thing is that we are facing even more challenges. Even looking at recent statistics from World Economic Forum talking about businesses noticing that 44% and more of workers will see their skills disrupted by 2027. And even if we just think about AI and all the changes it brings in general, personal and professional life, That in itself will be probably both an acute and a chronic demand that we'll have to deal with. And there are many others, right? So that's normal. That's fine. We almost want to turn these challenges into the way life is. And at the same time, recognizing that for us humans, these demands are taxing, right? They're requiring some of our resources.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Marie-Helene PelletierAnd now we'll dive into how our workplace is a system. It's not all in us as individuals, and that's a very, very important aspect of this overall picture. And even in that system, we do have an impact, an opportunity to impact our resilience. The key aspect being, or one of the key ones, is that it is not a personality trait. Sometimes we'll tend to think that it is, Because we've been so resilient in so many ways so far, recently. That's great. And so, well, that must be who I am. And no, it isn't. It's a state. So that means it will fluctuate and it also means we can influence it. We have agency and we want to use that.
Leanne ElliottSo if resilience fluctuates, how do we know when we might be in need of building our resilience and doing something proactive to, to build that back up?
Marie-Helene PelletierI would say always, always. It's similar to if in— it's not exactly that, but if we said, well, you know, hydration is important, how often should we drink? Well, all day, every day. And it's not because we did it yesterday that we don't need to do it today. No, always. And if we know there's gonna be a demand, say a phase where we can't drink much water, then yes, we want to front load and we want to replenish as soon as we can shortly after. It functions the same way in a number of ways. And so how will we know if it's particularly suffering, right? We will start to see things like our, maybe our concentration not being as good. For a lot of people, they will see themselves being more impatient than they usually are. If you're always impatient, maybe that's Not a sign, but if, you know, even an impatient person sometimes will reach even higher levels, right? Sometimes it will impact your sleep. It will impact your eating habits, your consumption of alcohol, for example. Often an easy way to think about it is you're just not being your usual self.
Leanne ElliottSo, when we recognise that in ourselves, if we have that awareness, or maybe it's the feedback we get from others, I might have been told that before from Al perhaps, that I'm having less patience than I normally would. If I recognise that, what can I do? What practical things can I do to start to better manage the stress and build my resilience?
Marie-Helene PelletierSo during the pandemic, especially everyone, we've all heard the things, the key things that would likely help us build our resilience. And they are solidly research-based. We're not talking about a few studies, we're talking about body of research, meta-analysis, systematic reviews, like very established. So 4 key variables we would want in that equation. The problem is not so much knowing those variables, it's in implementing, which is why I'm arguing we need to be actually strategic about it. But just so we're all on the same page, those 4 variables. First one is, yeah, movement. Or exercise, 3 categories, subcategories in there. One is cardio, one is strength training, and another one is meditative type activity. Yoga, meditation, tai chi, all of these. Okay, so that's variable number one. And they're actually number one in the me listing them right now. They're not in order of priority necessarily. Another one is nutrition. A lot of research is focusing on the Mediterranean type diet.
Al ElliottHmm.
Marie-Helene PelletierFish, leafy vegetables, that kind of thing. Huge impact on our resilience. We do it for physical health. It's huge for mental health. Sleep, 7 to 8 hours a night. And no, the phone is not something to do in your bed or your laptop. No, not doing that either. And 4th category is our relationships, spending time with people who we enjoy spending time with. And I'm seeing most leaders and professionals let that one go. They'll prioritize exercise, they'll prioritize Specifically cardio, maybe strength training. They'll say meditation's not for them. Even more of a reason to do it. They'll sometimes compromise on nutrition, often compromise on sleep, and very often cancel any social plan to work. And yet these 4 variables would have the most impact on our resilience.
Leanne ElliottSo you say to approach it strategically. What would that look at— look like? How can I assess Where I am on those 4 variables.
Marie-Helene PelletierI know this, this I think is truly the game changer here. And, and here's the, the, the, the way even I, I got to realizing this is the missing piece. I was working with leaders, business owners, that kind of thing. And some of them were saying, well, you know, what's my problem? Why am I just not implementing those things that I know I should? I believe in them. I believe in research, like, Crystal clear. I've done this before and felt better. Everything is there. I'm still not doing it. Then I, at some point I said, well, it's similar to in business when you have a great idea about a new thing to launch, new service, new product. Would you just have this great idea and say, great, let's do it? Or would you have this great idea and say, okay, who else is offering it? How much are they charging for it? Who is buying it? What forces in the near or far future?
Al ElliottHmm.
Marie-Helene Pelletiermight impact the demand for it. You would do all this. This is evaluating the context. This leads to a strategy. So a higher level direction on how you're going to launch the thing. So same thing here for us with our resilience. So we have this great idea. We know some of the things we think that we should do. And what I'm saying is, let's be strategic, which means your plan, Leanne, and mine will be different. My plan will be different from my plan in 3 months from now. Because my context is changing. And I'm saying 3 main ways to get to designing a plan that's yours, that's uniquely aligned with your context. We're focusing on your values. We're focusing on a realistic assessment of your sources of supply and your sources of demand. We're assessing your context using the same framework as the SWOT analysis in business, looking at your—
Al ElliottYeah.
Marie-Helene PelletierStrengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats so that you can create a plan that is actually doable. And that's what then changes everything because now it happens, it builds self-efficacy, that sense of, yes, I can impact my resilience. And now we're actually on our way.
Leanne ElliottI love the idea of using concepts that business owners, entrepreneurs will already understand and applying that to the world of mental health. Equally, I can hear a business owner in the back of my head going, this all sounds lovely, and I wish I could get 7 to 8 hours of sleep a night, but I have a business to run, I've got kids at home, I've got lots of other responsibilities outside of work that I need to manage. I, I just can't right now. How do you help a business owner get over maybe that That perspective and make it manageable for them to, to make this plan and then actually implement it as well?
Marie-Helene PelletierThe beautiful thing is that each person designs their own plan. So, and I'll give you an example in a moment, or I can work with you if we do an executive coaching session, which I do with some people who say, I love the idea of your book, not reading a book, and need a plan now. So can we just make it happen? Yes, we can. But here's the thing. So let's say I am a business owner with all the profile that you just described. Got kids at home, business owner, no time to sleep 8 hours a night. Okay, fine. But if we've gone through looking at your values, which likely includes things like family potentially, and a number of other things, and we've looked at your sources of supply and demand, which means I'm not getting much sleep, I'm having lots of demands at work, for example, and there will be many others. And we've looked at your context, You may be, but you're seeing that your resilience is, uh, at times not as high as it could be. So maybe there is a pillar in your strategic plan that will be called my physical health. And maybe here what we're saying is, all right, right now I sleep, say, 6.5 hours a night. And okay, I hear that ideally it would get a bit better. All right, well, maybe action number 1, Is that for the next, whatever, 6 months, I'm just going to gradually work to increasing my sleep by 15 minutes. 1-5. So I'm, if I'm doing 15 minutes over 6 months, all this means is that tonight all I'm trying is I'm more aware of what am I doing during my evening that I could either not do or take less time doing.
Al ElliottHmm.
Marie-Helene PelletierSo that I will end up starting my winding down moment just a minute sooner. And so everyone has a minute. This is not going to change my life immensely, but now I'm paying attention. Now I'm valuing my sleep. I'm looking for opportunities. I've increased my curiosity about this particular variable. I'm probably actually talking to my kids about the fact that I'm doing this.
Al ElliottOoh.
Marie-Helene PelletierThat's also positive. Possibly if there's a partner in the house, partner's hearing about it as well. We're all talking more about the importance of sleep. And you see how it's funny because, well, funny or interesting, everything is both personal and professional. These conversations are happening here. I may, as a leader, decide to bring it also in my workplace, which now is impacting our culture as a team. And possibly even eventually as an organization on, yeah, we talk about these things. We talk about how not easy this is and how gradual we may need to take it, but how it's, yes, on the agenda.
Leanne ElliottIs it possible to focus on one variable to compensate for another? So, if I'm thinking 6.5 hours of sleep is about all I'm going to get a night over the next 6 months, but I'm going to work really hard on eating really well, moving more, meditating in the morning, is that going to compensate for lack of sleep or do all 4 need to be in balance?
Marie-Helene PelletierIt's a good question. Well, it depends on so many things. So research would not answer, would not say, oh yes, if you do more of this one, then you can let go of this one. Like if you're eating more asparagus, you can decrease your broccoli intake. They bring different things and it's as if, and, and they not only that, they actually impact each other. So as we're improving, like if we are able to nourish all, all 4, and there are others, right? Spending time in nature, doing volunteer work if we have time to do this, having better boundaries, managing your time better. Your, your pillars in your own strategic resilience plan will vary from person to person.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Marie-Helene PelletierSo I think that if we're stepping back for a moment, if the situation is, I think that if starting on the sleep is not for me, for example, but it looks like I can start on getting back to better nutrition, lower hanging fruit. You're getting started. It's doable. Do it. Yes, of course. If, however, you're feeling like you're close to burnout, you're not sure, you're crying on your way to work, you're not sure you can make it. Then just eating better is not going to cut it. It's not going to be enough. You will, if you're there, then you want to connect with professionals, probably check in with your physical health service provider, physician, nurse practitioner, and your psychologist so that we can help you. And likely, if you're coming to someone like me, for example, we will be as fast as we can investing in these variables and others, and possibly even more. So it depends on where we are on that continuum. But if everything's possible, then I would say act on, even in small ways, on all 4, probably a bit better than focusing just on one. At the same time, whatever you can do, do it. Yes.
Leanne ElliottAnd does it work from the other end? So if somebody has got to the point of burnout, will investing in these help with the recovery?
Marie-Helene PelletierYes. Not only it will, it's best practice. It's included. If you're going to see your physician and let's say it is at a point where you're needing to consider medication, for example, they'll often recommend medication, psychotherapy, and lifestyle active actions that we can take that impact our resilience and mental health. So it's, it's not getting away from us. It's, it's, it's there throughout the continuum. It's just that if, you know, it's similar to say physical health. If we're generally healthy right now, and we're eating a few more vitamins, it's good. It boosts our physical health even more. Great. If we are unwell, we have a serious cold here, would eating those oranges still help? Yes. Will you perhaps need something else in addition? Likely. But we're still wanting the oranges, right? So that's perhaps the way I would think about it.
Leanne ElliottAnd you mentioned that leaders might take these conversations into their workplace and encourage that dialogue with their employees. What else can leaders do to create the type of culture that does support resilience?
Marie-Helene PelletierSo as a leader, I would say, keep in mind, back to a bit of what we mentioned earlier, that workplace is a system. In that system, we've got individuals, all of us, we've got teams, and we've got the organisation. And even if we went broader, the organisation is within a country, within a moment in time. It's in context. And that's important because we would not want to think, and that would be a lie if I use the name of the podcast, but it would be a lie to think that 100% of the control of our resilience is in our individual hands. A truth would be that workplace is a system. And now, even when most of the challenges on our resilience comes, say, from the organization, not even the team, like the overall organization, we still have some impact on our resilience. We don't wanna say, well, it's all in the organization, so I'm just gonna wait until it gets better. Because during this time, it impacts us. And while it's impacting us, those actions we could take would help us Either navigate this a bit better or make the decision to not stay, right? So it's still part of this overall system. Therefore, as a leader, especially for everyone, it's important, but especially as a leader, you want to think about resilience through all these 3 lenses. And that's part of a requirement of the role, right? You're the person who sometimes gets in the details and Yeah. Steps back to think about the bigger picture. So as a leader, get information internally about what— if there's anything there, but it's worth asking— what is our mental health strategy here? Go to your HR partner, go to your senior leadership, go to your own leader to ask the question. If there's something there, you want to learn what it is and align your own actions with this This movement, not because it's a better idea than yours necessarily, but because it's already a movement that's invested in. And as a leader, you're busy. You've got all your other operational things that you need to do. You don't have a huge amount of time to create one here. They have the expertise. They have the direction. They've invested. Your best investment is to align, find something that resonates, that makes sense, and align what you bring to your team in your conversations, For example, with this. So maybe the organization, if they're earlier on their journey, what they're mostly doing is providing some resources, maybe providing some documents, some reading, some information. Okay, let's take that. Maybe here, if we're comfortable and we have a bit more investment in it, maybe every meeting there is 5 minutes on one topic related to resilience. Hmm. That could be your takeaway. You've narrowed it down to something that you didn't have. It took you two minutes. You got the information from HR. You brought it here. But what you're doing as a leader is you're emphasizing how important this is. You're contributing to an overall culture, but also to a culture here in this team where we recognize we're human and that. Therefore, we need to invest in our resilience to be able to deliver.
Al ElliottAfter this very short break, we're gonna hear more from MH, and Leanne asks how the heck we're supposed to fit all of this good stuff in when we lead very busy lives. See you after the break when we might have quietened our dog down.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— yeah, yeah, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Fel. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Marie-Helene PelletierIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. Let's rejoin this interview and learn more about how to build up resilience so you can live a happy and calm life while still getting everything done.
Leanne ElliottI'm replaying what you said back in my head through the lens of like the popular mental health perks that we see in workplaces. And I'm wondering, and I think often the what gets disconnected with the why in organizations. So we hear about things like mindfulness at lunch, we hear about things like fruit in the break room, we hear about these, you know, cool breakout areas where people will move around a bit more. We don't hear much about relationships And how actually, from what you were saying, if leaders invested in even just in the work environment, creating healthier relationships, that's going to positively impact resilience?
Marie-Helene PelletierYes, it will. And, you know, the other thing to think about is how can leaders influence this? Investing in your own resilience will help you be a better leader. Okay. But it Also becomes a way to inspire others to do the same thing for themselves. It's, you're becoming a champion within the organization. So it starts with the perks. Most often this relatively early in the process for the organization will be done. Okay, check. We have that. Where else are we going? And that's where, again, it's something that's usually handled by the leadership in HR combined with the overall leadership of the organization on defining our mental health strategy given our business strategy. But here we will then look at, okay, what deeper challenges are we struggling with? Are we struggling with our workload and how we're perhaps not optimizing certain parts of our processes? Have we optimized the structures we need to give, give ourselves internally about AI, even if, say, AI right now feels far away or if it feels very present, such that instead of representing a stressor that adds to the demand and decreases resilience, we can actually harness this not only for the business, but also for the health of the humans in the organization. Right? So it starts with the easier, lower-hanging fruit. Yes, it is just a start. That is probably the 1% part of this overall conversation. So a lie would be to think that if you've achieved this, you're done. No, we're not. If you've achieved this, you've started. Is it research-based? Yes. Is it helpful for at least some? Yes, probably. Is this enough? Absolutely not. This needs to keep going.
Leanne ElliottAnd can you maybe give an example of somebody that you've worked with, a leader or an organisation, using the resilience plan and how they've successfully built up their resilience?
Marie-Helene PelletierYes. So, you know, Leanne, this is my first, probably only book because it's a lot of work as it turns out. But when you do a book, one of the things, a nonfiction especially, you can do a focus group at some point to test some of the concepts. Of the book. And so I did that. I did an online one so I could have people from around the world. And I did. That was amazing. And one of the individuals in this group, her particular situation was, was she was describing as having an endless to-do list, spending all of her days running after her own self and after her schedule, going from meeting to meeting to things to do, never feeling like she's was grounded in some satisfaction of having done something because it just the list was keeping going and there were many other things she was in that focus group so she followed the process of creating her plan using the the framework I have in there and that was it moved along then I get an email from her saying okay this is so great I've got my plan could you travel to my team of leaders to give us this presentation, the framework of your book, so they can create their own plans in a couple of months. Sure. So we book it. I travel, I get there, meet her in person. That's great. And she says, I'm gonna sit at the back because, you know, I want the group to enjoy the things. So I provide the workshop, people get their plans done. At the end, she comes to the front and to me just to talk and, and says, Okay. Not expecting this, but here's what happened. I thought I would just sit at the back, let others enjoy the talk. I realized, why not do, you know, review my own plan since I'm here and it's been 3 months. So she realized that she had implemented her actions from 3 months ago because they were so doable. Her overall Life had changed from an endless to-do things, incredibly overwhelming, to a clear short list of the things she needs to do, not with those that she doesn't need to. So all of this had now been implemented for her. So she used that session to update her strategic plan for the next 3 months, which I know I see you're nodding. That's the thing. That's exactly what we do in business. Same thing, right? The strategic plan is not forever. It is for right now and needs to be revised either at a planned frequency or when the context changes and we need to review it. So I thought this was magnificent because that's exactly how so many of my other clients before had used it and what it's designed for.
Leanne ElliottI love that. And I love, again, it's connecting it back to the business concepts that leaders will understand. You know, it's not a static strategy that is never revised, revisited, and, and tweaked. What's, what's the impact of it? I mean, I think, I think there'll be people that will maybe understand the individual impacts of that. You know, they'll probably be more productive, have, you know, better relationships, more balance in their life. What's the impact for a business if you've got a whole leadership team or even a whole organization that is working to the resilience plan?
Marie-Helene PelletierIt allows, it's so many. It allows everyone to bring their best, basically, right? So, because once you bring your best, you're able to be more creative, you're able to go with the changes better. And that will be true at the individual level. As a team, you know, a team that is resilient is not just a group of individually resilient people. It's Us as a team here. How can this team face a challenge and be ready for the next one instead of needing to recover for so long after the first one? And if we build this as a team, and there are ways to do that here as well, that, and more teams do this, then we as an organization become also more resilient, not only from a psychological perspective, but from a business perspective.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Marie-Helene PelletierSuch that as we face challenges, instead of turning internally because we need to figure ourselves out, we are strong. We're keeping an eye on what's happening externally, which keeps us in an even better, stronger position from a business perspective as well. So it really transpires everywhere, a more resilient individual. And even talking more about it, will inspire us to bring this topic to our teams, to bring this topic to conversations and actions at the team and organisation level, and then allows us to be even more successful. It impacts engagement, it impacts recruitment and retention. You will see it at different levels.
Leanne ElliottAre there any mistakes leaders can make when implementing this type of strategy or implementing the resilience plan? Are there some fundamental things that they might Unintentionally get wrong?
Marie-Helene PelletierThe most frequent one is thinking, it's probably because we're hoping that it's going to happen fast. It doesn't work like that. It just doesn't. And, you know, I wish if anyone finds a way to make this happen immediately, talk to me because there's money to be made. But no, seriously, it's just not how it works. And so, and we don't want to think, well, because it didn't work immediately, then I will let go. Mm-mm. You need to stay with it. It's similar to so many other changes we do in our human lives, whether it's implementing exercise or starting to practice meditation. These things don't feel better immediately. Often they will take a bit of time. So same thing here. You have to commit for a longer period of time to see the changes in yourselves, in your team, in the organization. At the organization level, to give you an idea, when you create a mental health strategy for many organizations, this is at least 2 to 3 years for the next round to be reviewed. So just to give you an idea, right? It's not, oh, in 3, in 3 months we'll see how our numbers are going. Sure, we'll keep an eye, of course, because that continues to inform, do we need to shift any element of our mental health strategy? But This is long-term view. And so many of our activities on the operations level often are shorter-term than this. And it's normal that most leaders would not know because they're experts in other things. So that's perhaps the mindset you want to adopt on that particular angle, that this is a longer runway here.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think that really helps, doesn't it, with taking mental health and supporting employees' mental health from a tick box to a fundamental part of culture and ongoing activity within, within the organization. And basically, you've given us so many practical tips, but I am going to push you for one more. If somebody wants to get started today, apart from going to buy your book immediately, what else can they do?
Marie-Helene PelletierWell, they can look at the show notes because I'm going to send you a link to worksheets that people can use without the book or with the book, and they're very self-explanatory. So that's One thing. And in these worksheets, if you need less than 3, you only want one, take the second one. It's called Supply and Demand. And what it— you'll see, of course, in the book I explain more here, but what I'd like to recommend you do is list all the demands you're facing right now and make sure you list at work and in personal life. And make sure you list the demands that you don't want, which is usually where people go first. But also the demands you're very happy to have that still represent demands. And then list all your sources of supply. So the ways in which your energy and resilience is replenished. This exercise is the one I've received the most feedback about that in and of itself makes people suddenly see it literally, 'cause it's on paper, the disconnect. And will often push people to realize one next action they can take. And just like in business, most of the time we don't start with a fully drawn strategy. We start with some actions, which is not the, I guess, the perfect theoretical way to get there. But the reality of leadership is that we start with some actions and then we say, all right, we need a strategy here, right? But this will be, you're starting with an action and that's a start. And I'm all for any start anywhere because we want action.
Leanne ElliottAnd if there's one key message, you've shared so much wisdom and so many actionable strategies and steps people can take. But if there's one message you want leaders to take away from this conversation, what is it?
Marie-Helene PelletierThat resilience is not a given. It is a strategy. And so therefore, yes, you want to have your plan and take your actions.
Leanne ElliottAnd before we go, if you don't mind me asking, you talk about this so, so beautifully and passionately. Where did your motivation come from to start digging into resilience?
Marie-Helene PelletierIt came from so many directions, really. So a love from early, early in my career from realizing the amount of information that exists in psychology, that if all of us used all this, our lives would be so much better. Okay. So that's one part. Then Having been myself in leadership roles from very junior to middle manager, which is probably the toughest, to most senior, and, and having seen how hard it is, number one, to implement these things, but also having learned personally in the hard way at times how it's not all in your individual hands. So putting all this together is what Made me say, okay, we need to focus on strategy and— sorry, we need to focus on resilience and bring strategy because we really need both. Just one or the other for this particular purpose is not enough. We need both together.
Leanne ElliottThank you so much. It's been such a great conversation. I know our listeners will want to learn more about you and your work. Where's the best place they should go?
Marie-Helene PelletierThey can go to theresilienceplan.com. So theresilienceplan.com will get you to the book, what I do, everything, my website, LinkedIn, also always happy to connect with people, see what you're talking about, you can see what I'm talking about. And then we can all contribute to this conversation.
Al ElliottLeanne, I thought that was really, really, really good. I really enjoyed it. I love how MH can take something that feels kind of fluffy and make it practical.
Leanne ElliottIt's only fluffy if we don't talk about the science, and if we're not talking about the science, you're not doing it right. So let that be a lesson to you all. But yeah, it was brilliant, and what I really appreciated was moving away from this idea that resilience is just something that you either have or you don't, breaking it down into those 4 key variables I thought was really helpful. So just to recap, that was movement, nutrition, sleep, and relationships, and then approaching it strategically like a business plan. I thought that was really useful for particular business owners who aren't really sure how to kind of break into this world and start to invest in their own mental wellbeing.
Al ElliottI think what really struck me was that bit about how it's not making massive changes overnight. You know, that example of trying to get 15 more minutes of sleep, that's doable. That's something any business owner can get their head— well, not the sleep part of it, unless you listen to Tuesday, in which case you'll hear how important naps are and how you can actually get zapped instead of a nap. But anyway, that's a different story.
Leanne ElliottYeah, sleep is really important. Absolutely. And if you do want to learn more about all of this, and more about MH work, then do, um, grab those worksheets that she mentioned. We'll pop all the links in the show notes.
Al ElliottAnd don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We're back next Tuesday with our weekly news roundup, our hot takes, and of course our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we will. And we actually had one this week that we can't include because there's no way to kind of make it anonymous. It's such a very specific, juicy, juicy, challenging situation. We weren't— there was no way of doing it. So yeah, obviously we went back to that person as an individual, but we're not gonna air it anyway. If you have a question, send it in, the juicier the better. Until then, make sure you check out theresilienceplan.com and maybe connect with MH on LinkedIn. And if you did enjoy this episode, then why not post about it? LinkedIn's also good, or the TikTok, the Instagram, whichever your preferred social media platform of choice. Tag us at— I was gonna say A Sideways Life then.
Al ElliottNo, a different podcast, different world.
Leanne ElliottDifferent podcasts with very different ideas. Um, no, Truth, Lies and Work is our handle. Uh, we would love to hear your thoughts.
Al ElliottYes, we would. So we will see you next week, uh, where the cert— where the surgery is gonna be done. This is not the surgery, this is the studio. The studio will be done. And, uh, and we had some tech issues with this one, so, uh, which is why it's probably a little bit late on the Tuesday. So hopefully those can be solved as well. So we will see you next Tuesday. Bye-bye.