Episode 17 · 20 December 2022 · 51:00
Who Is Leanne Elliott?: The Truth Behind the Psychologist - Our Co-Host’s Story
Who Is Leanne Elliott?: The Truth Behind the Psychologist - Our Co-Host’s Story
0:000:00
Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.
Enjoying the show? Subscribe for free
Chapters & timestamps
Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.
Who is Leanne Elliott?
What is a business psychologist, actually?
The exact moment Leanne decided to pursue psychology
Normal vs. abnormal psychology
The difference between a manager and a leader
Leanne's best day as a manager
Leanne's worst day as a manager
John — the mentor who changed everything
The 7 mistakes most managers make
Employee voice and the beliefs Leanne holds dear
Why the science of people is not 'fluff'
Leanne's perfect workday
The book Leanne would write
What John would think of all this
Show notes
Who Is Leanne Elliott? The Truth Behind the Psychologist
Episode 17 — Al turns the mic on his co-host and business partner, Leanne Elliott, for a rare, deeply personal conversation about the woman behind the psychology.
Almost 15 years as a business psychologist. 8+ years as a leader and manager, actually implementing the theory she learned in her Master's rather than just talking about it. But until now, we've never really known the story behind the expert.
In the second of a two-part series, Al sits down with Leanne to uncover the moments that shaped her — from the exact second she decided to pursue psychology, to the manager who changed everything, to the best and worst days of her leadership career.
This is honest, sometimes emotional, and full of the practical wisdom that comes from someone who's done the job, not just studied it.
Highlights
The moment it all started. Leanne can remember the exact second she decided to pursue psychology — a clinical psychologist walked into her school, and something clicked. She saw the power of being able to show up and be there for people who needed her.
The best day. Orchestrating a moment where her team helped a customer in a way that went far beyond the transaction — the customer had two kids who needed bikes, and the team just happened to have two bikes available. "We're not just helping our customers, we're helping their families."
The worst day. The same job, but at the beginning of the contract. Leanne admits she was well beyond her level of experience and competence, and she fell on her face. It was a real low point — but it led her to John.
John. Her director, the husband of the MD, and the mentor who taught her three core things that stuck. He's no longer with us, but his influence runs through everything Leanne does — including the way she thinks about leadership, vulnerability, and what it means to truly see the people you work with.
The 7 mistakes most managers make. Leanne breaks down the patterns she sees time and again — including "hiding the wires," feeling you need to have all the answers, and not allowing people to challenge you.
Why the science of people isn't fluff. There's an impact. There's evidence. And dismissing it as soft or fluffy is a mistake that costs businesses dearly.
Top 3 Takeaways
The best leaders let people challenge them. One of Leanne's biggest breakthroughs as a manager came when she allowed someone to question her — and discovered that person wasn't ready for the responsibility she'd given them. Challenge isn't a threat; it's data.
You don't need to have all the answers. "Hiding the wires" — pretending you know everything — is one of the most common and damaging mistakes managers make. The leaders who build real trust are the ones willing to say "I don't know."
The vision of the organisation is the most important first step. When it comes to culture, engagement, and wellbeing, you can't build anything meaningful until you know where you're going. Everything else follows from that.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottYou're in a situation where you're, you know, you're stretched, but you're giving everything and you fail.
Al ElliottHello and welcome to another episode of Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture. The podcast which is aiming to simplify the complex science of people. My name's Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottMy name's Leanne, I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd generally what we do on these episodes is we interview experts about a particular type or something to do with workplace culture, engagement, or wellbeing. Now, what we're doing is a little bit differently, because if you remember from last week, Leanne interviewed me about my background and how I got to where I am today. And I'm going to do the same with Leanne. And the idea being that we, we realize that we're now, what, maybe a dozen, half dozen and a half episodes in, and we've not really introduced ourselves. So slight deviation from the norm, but we just want to sort of learn a little bit more about Leanne today, if that's okay, Leah.
Leanne ElliottOf course.
Al ElliottSo not only is she my business partner with Oblong, which is the consultancy we got together, but she's also my life partner, as in my wife. We've been married for about 10 years, traveling for about the same amount of time. Um, and together for about 15. So it's gonna be a bit of a weird one because there's a lot I know about Leanne. But then, as we discovered from the last episode, is that some questions, when you asked me, I said things that I don't think I'd ever told you before.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottAnd so it's potentially that's gonna happen again today. So although it might sound a little bit of a strange sort of format because I know Leanne so well, I've tried to design some questions to try and get really to the heart of who is Leanne, what, what makes her tick, and probably why You should be working with it, in my opinion. So, Leanne, is there anything you want to ask before we crack on?
Leanne ElliottNo, I'm happy to be here.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Okay, well, let's just start off with a little bit of introduction. So tell us who you are and what you do.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist, and I help typically owner-led businesses create teams that care as much about their business as they do. My passion is creating environments in which people can thrive, where they're engaged, where they experience positive wellbeing, because we know scientifically that engaged, fulfilled employees translate to better business outcomes.
Al ElliottI love it. I love it. And so just tell us, what is a business psychologist? Hmm.
Leanne ElliottA business psychologist is somebody who, who works within the science of people, behavioural science, and applies those principles within an organisation. Why would an organisation need a business psychologist? People are complex beings, and none of us operate in a vacuum. Our own behaviours impact the behaviours of others, and particularly in organisations that are service-led, where your people are your product, having a business psychologist is really going to help you harness people's strengths, but also create an environment in which people can thrive. Particularly now that workplaces and the meaning of work to so many of us is shifting, understanding how people behave and how to nurture the desired behaviours in your business is going to have a direct impact on your bottom line. It's going to have a direct impact on your profitability. It's going to have a direct impact on the happiness of your customers and ultimately the success of your business. So, psychology is an important topic for any business that wants to grow through its people. And that is all about creating an engaging culture, which for me has 3 basic principles: how to find great people, how to engage great people, and how to empower great people.
Al ElliottAnd so what do you think it is that people misunderstand most about what you do?
Leanne ElliottI think it's got better. I know that my early days, when I said I was a psychologist, I'd get the replies of, oh, can you read my mind? And after getting over the initial frustration, I'd usually come back with something like, yes, and you should be ashamed of yourself. I think, and I think, yeah, what people probably misunderstand is that they probably think I'm here to come with interventions, things that you can action immediately within your business to make things better. And the reality is, and the lie of psychology and the science of people, is that there are no kind of interventions with a 100% guaranteed stamp of succeeding. It all depends on the current structure of your business, the current climate of your business, as to what's going to—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottWork. So while there are popular interventions such as wellbeing programs, such as mentoring programs, coaching, um, or even, you know, great management training, even then it's, it's about understanding what that training looks like and how it's going to have the most impact in your business. A great manager in a health organization is going to look very different to a great manager in a sales organization. Um, so I think that's the main misconception, is that I don't come with the answers. I come with lots of questions. And then when we get the answers to those questions, those insights, then I can design an intervention that's going to work. So a lot of my, my role really initially is about research and gathering insights.
Al ElliottSo why did you become a business psychologist? What's the story behind this?
Leanne ElliottI can remember the exact moment that I decided I wanted to pursue psychology, not necessarily business psychology, but psychology as a subject. I was in high school, and very sadly, one of my close friends lost her mum very suddenly to meningitis. And the school reacted in such a brilliant way. It was a small school. There was only like 25 of us in my year. But the headmistress brought us all into her office, and she'd engaged a clinical psychologist to come and talk to us about how we're feeling, what's a normal feeling, normal reaction to have in in the face of such a shocking and traumatic event. And I walked into that room as a scared 14-year-old, not knowing how to react, not knowing how to support my friend. And I walked out feeling, I guess, in a simple word, better and empowered. I felt that I understood my feelings better. I felt that I was given some really positive coping strategies. And I feel that I was, by understanding my own behavior and my own feelings, I was then able to—
Al ElliottSupport others.
Leanne Elliottshow up and be there for the people that needed me to. And I think in that moment, I saw for myself the power of psychology in terms of helping us navigate our lives and the challenges that we experience. So yeah, at that point, I was interested. I knew that I wanted to pursue psychology, and this was when I was 14 or 15. So yeah, from that point on through to after I finished my— my undergraduate degree, psychology was the only thing I had on my mind.
Al ElliottYou mentioned there a clinical psychologist came into your school. What's the difference between clinical psychology and business psychology?
Leanne ElliottSo psychology in general tends to fall into 2 categories, normal and abnormal psychology. Abnormal psychology dealing with, um, more clinical disorders. Um, so a clinical psychologist will tend to look at Yeah, more kind of, well, that clinical level of psychology. So when things aren't quite working in the way that they should be working within ourselves. A business psychologist works more within the normal, and very much in inverted commas, realm of psychology. And it's all about kind of how people behave and interact within the workplace. So it's more of a, I guess it's looking at more of an organisational level. Whereas a clinical psychologist is more likely to look at things at an individual level.
Al ElliottBut you didn't always wanna be a psychologist, did you? No.
Leanne ElliottI think like most young people, I went through, through various different, different ideas. But my dad was very influential in my choices academically and professionally. So, yeah, I went through being— wanting to be a doctor, wanted to be a journalist. My very younger years, I wanted to be an actress and singer. But quite rightly didn't have the level of talent needed for that. But I think what united them all was a desire to want to help people, want to support people. And I think, I guess, reassure people. Just make— try and make the world a little bit of a better place.
Al ElliottYou said there you wanted to help, support, and reassure people. Why do you think that that's so important to you?
Leanne ElliottI think there are a few reasons. I think, you know, in terms of my— the environment I was brought up in, um, it was a Catholic environment, and it was very much based on, you know, treat others the way you want to be treated. Um, there are some very positive values in there in, in terms of, of, you know, you, you give what you can to, to whoever needs it more than you do. So I think that definitely It's definitely something that stems from that side of it. And I don't know, I guess the psychologist in me would say there's probably some narcissistic drive as well that means that I want to make things better because that makes me feel better. I don't think it comes from a place of, let me tell you how it should be. But I think there probably is an element of that, an element of wanting to, I guess, guide others to answers that perhaps they don't have or don't know how to get to. I think there's such a— I grew up in a very privileged environment. And that's not to say that we were rich or, you know, we weren't. My dad was, you know, coming from a very working-class background in in Liverpool. So, I think there is a case of knowing what he'd been through, and knowing that he had to do it all very independently, then being in this privileged position where I had so much support in my education, in my aspirations to develop as a person. I guess there's a part of me that connected those 2 things that, you know, without opportunity, it's really hard to make things better for yourself. And sometimes we need people in our lives to facilitate those opportunities.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd I guess I just thought that if I can play that type of role, then for whatever reason, I thought that would be a fulfilling thing to do. And I always wanted a vocation. I think, again, this came from my dad's influence. I always felt— I mean, I said before, I wanted to be a doctor or a journalist. Like, I wanted a vocation. And that's just the way I was brought up, I think. My dad was an engineer. My sister is a teacher. My other sister is an accountant.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, yeah, I guess I don't really know exactly apart from I had a feeling it would bring me some sense of fulfillment. On an intellectual level, I found psychology really fascinating. I found people really fascinating. And, yeah, I felt it was just a good point to start pursuing psychology.
Al ElliottYou mentioned your dad a lot. Um, do you think he's proud of what you do?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWhy do you think that?
Leanne ElliottHe's told me.
Al ElliottYeah?
Leanne ElliottYeah, he's told me. And I— my relationship with my dad was funny growing up because I was the youngest by quite a margin. My dad had a very high-pressure job, which meant he was absent quite a lot. Um, but it seemed that work ethic definitely influenced me. Um, And yeah, I always wanted to make both my mum and dad proud because I think, again, knowing where they'd come from, what they'd achieved, I didn't really have any excuse. Like, it was on me. And there was definitely the pressure I put on myself. There was certainly an expectation from my family in terms of what I was capable of, but it was definitely more of an internalized pressure. So yeah, I always wanted to make my dad feel proud.
Al ElliottSo let's go So I want to start off and ask a bit of an elementary question, but I'm sure a lot of us normals don't know this. What would you say is the difference between a manager and a leader?
Leanne ElliottYeah, that is, that is a very widely debated and discussed question. I think what's really interesting about the way the research is going is that actually there is becoming less of a distinction between managers and leaders. leaders and managers in terms of the behaviours they need to adopt to be effective. I mean, traditionally, managers are quite transactional. They're about making sure that plans were executed in the way they needed to be to deliver the results, whereas leadership was about creating the plan and creating the vision. But yeah, as the research goes on, we're understanding more and more that these leadership behaviours are something that organisations benefit from having.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAcross levels, across roles. So, yeah, I think that gap is reducing. But ultimately, yeah, the simplest way, and I guess in a business way, the leaders would set the strategy and the managers would be more responsible for its execution.
Al ElliottSo, when you worked for a subcontractor for the Department of Work and Pensions, some of— I was with you at the time, you loved that work. Would you describe yourself as a leader at that point or a manager?
Leanne ElliottUm, very much as a manager.
Al ElliottAnd what do you think made you a good manager back then?
Leanne ElliottI think in terms of my competence, I was managing the people who I'd done the job of previously. And whilst that is by no means a prerequisite and often, often not a reason why managers should— or people should be promoted into a management position, I think having that insight, having been there and done it and done it well gave me credibility as a new manager and as a young manager in that I understood, at least I understood the role. And then I think beyond that, I very much drew on my psychology education. I knew theoretically what it took to create an environment in which people could be themselves, where they had a voice, where they could question things, where they could contribute ideas, where they had autonomy, where they were empowered, where they were supported. where they had the correct resources that they needed to have. They had role clarity. I knew theoretically what I had to do as a manager. And I think I had a level of understanding that was well beyond my years in terms of my professional competence. So then it was just a case of having an environment where I was encouraged and supported to turn this theory into practice.
Al ElliottSo what was your best day?
Leanne ElliottMy best moment knowing that what we were doing was really something cool and I'd orchestrated this situation was when— so I worked for a welfare-to-work company called Pinnacle People, and we— I ran a contract that supported people with multiple barriers back into work. So physical health barriers, mental health challenges, social isolation, education, financial challenges, parenting, a whole host of different things. And it's one of the most holistic programs that the company had ever had. And I remember going to a meeting at our head office, and our MD was talking about how it would be really great if we start to cross-pollinate our contracts and start to understand how we could help each other. And she gave an example of a contracting the Midlands that was refurbishing bikes. So the contract was that people who were unemployed, who needed some kind of work experience, would go to this place where people had donated bicycles, and they'd refurbish them, and then they'd either keep them or give them away or whatever it is that they did. And this program had been so successful that they got lots and lots of donations, but they had a surplus of children's bikes, and they couldn't do anything with the children's bikes because their contract was all adults. So they could only give these bikes to other adults. They didn't have any outlet for the children. And she's like, you know, there must be an opportunity here somewhere. And I remember going back and talking to my team and saying, like, is this something our customers would be interested in? Because we were the family support programme, so typically, the vast majority of our customers would have children. And yeah, the team were really excited. We're like, yep, that's definitely— like, it was coming up to Christmas as well. So I was kind of like, right, well, before we can kind of put this all together, I need to understand from a kind of a business case perspective how many people we can give these bikes to, because it's going to cost money to get them up from the Midlands to Manchester, to organize appointments for people to come in and collect them. So lots of different logistical challenges, but the team really bought into it, did all the legwork I asked them to do, contacted then the contract manager of, um, the biking contract, explained it. He thought it was really cool, so helped me loads with the The transport logistics, and even down to the last minute, like, there was loads of snow and ice that year, and were they going to get there, and all this. And we had this amazing event, and loads of customers came. We gave away about 80, 100 bikes, kids' bikes, a couple of days before Christmas, you know, knowing that this was a really nice thing that we could have done for our customers. And this was— it was the last day before the Christmas holidays, and I sent the rest of the team home. I was like, we've had a great day. It's about 1 o'clock. I was like, we're done. We can do no better this year. We're done. So everyone went home, and I was working with the center manager of where we were just to kind of find storage for the few bikes that we had left over. And a guy came in who I'd never met before, but was a customer, stressing that had he missed it, the buses were delayed because there was snow in North Manchester, and he tried and—
Al ElliottOh, wow.
Leanne ElliottAnd, um, and I was like, it's okay. And we ended up that he had 2 kids he needed bikes for. We just so happened to have bikes at the right size. Um, and when he, he took them, he just burst into tears. And this is a guy who's like late 30s, early 40s, hard as nails, North Manchester people. You know, people like that don't show their emotion easily. Um, and he just turned to me and said, it's the one time, the one year that I'm not gonna let my kids down at Christmas.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottAnd that for me was just like, oh my God, like, we're not just helping our customers, we're helping their families. We're— we have impact, we have social impact. And without having, as a manager, heard about this opportunity and tried to do something about it, rallied my team and other stakeholders in the business to do it, it wouldn't have happened. And yeah, that was my proudest day as a manager. Getting emotional. That was a good day.
Al ElliottWhile I've got you emotional, then what do you— what would you say is your worst day?
Leanne ElliottWell, that's easy. My worst day as a manager. So, same job, um, but at the beginning of this contract, it was from startup. I was a new manager. As I said before, I didn't really have any much experience, um, and I was appointed to manage the Northwest, got asked to take on Yorkshire as well, another region, because they couldn't find anyone to fill the role. I had to fill the role.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottI went at it and fell on my face. I did such a bad job. I was well beyond my level of experience and competence. So I got demoted. And I remember having this meeting with the MD and my director in Leeds that I was gonna get demoted, and I had a number of options. And I remember getting the train back, feeling very sorry for myself, and getting off at the train station and falling over on somebody sick.
Al ElliottOh, no.
Leanne ElliottSo it was all at my back. It was a real low point, a real low point. So yeah, that was definitely my worst day as a manager. I felt like I'd let myself down. I felt like I'd let my team down. I'd let my director down. Yeah, I guess it's that worst nightmare, isn't it? Where you, you're in a situation where you're, you know, you're stretched, but you're giving everything and you fail.
Al ElliottYou I've always talked about this person, John, who I think you alluded to in that story, which was the director. Um, now, I know that you talk about John very, very fondly. Tell us a bit about John.
Leanne ElliottSo John was my director. He was also the husband of the MD, which made for an interesting dynamic. Um, we didn't know each other. He was new to the business. Um, When I took on this role, and he'd see— he'd supported me. Well, I think he knew that it was a bit beyond me. Um, so when we came out this meeting, I was given 3 options. I could either go back to being a coach on the contract in Yorkshire I just come from, I could be a coach on the new contract in Manchester, or I could be a freelance tutor. So basically a trainer. Um, so no option of of management roles. Like, management for me was over. And I remember going back and talking to you, Al, and various colleagues, and kind of thinking, well, I'm not good. I can't go backwards. I can't go back to being a coach, whether it's in my, you know, my old job or on the new contract. So I'll be a trainer, something I've not done before. I know it's something I'm good at. And at least it— I don't know, I just felt like it wasn't a full step backwards and felt a bit more like I could protect my ego a little bit.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, yeah, I went back the next day and I told John this with the MD. And this wasn't the answer they expected. I think they expected me to go back to being a coach. I kind of held my ground with it. And in the end, John was kind of like, I hoped you'd go back to be a coach because I think in a few months' time, you'd be able to then step back into the manager role. And I was kind of like, well, Okay, but if you don't think I can do it now, what difference is it going to make to have 3 more months of experience I've already got under my belt? Um, and at that point, he was just kind of like, I think you can do this, and I think with a smaller region, you can do this. So, he really lobbied for me, campaigned for me to the MD, his wife as well, by the way, and he's director of the contract, to give me this chance. And yeah, she reluctantly, very reluctantly, gave me this 3-month—
Al Elliott3 months.
Leanne Elliottrun-up to basically turn the contract around. But from that point on, I guess my— I guess whereas I'd seen John as quite like a scary figure in my life, he was then like a— I guess he did turn into a bit more of a mentor, a bit more of a coach. And I was kind of like, well, okay, well, if you believe in me, then I can't let myself down twice, but I certainly can't let you down twice. Um, and that was where everything just shifted. I, I asked the questions I needed to, asked for the support I needed to. I got my shit together in terms of doing my job well. Um, and yeah, in 3 months' time, we turned the contract around and I was asked to stay on as manager. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about How to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. So you've got very fond memories of John, sadly no longer with us. Um, and I think that a lot of the things that you do these days are based around some of the fundamental things that you learned from John. So tell us what are some of the things that you learned from John that—
Leanne ElliottYeah, I did, I did learn a lot from John, but I think there was maybe 3 core things that really stuck with me. One is that you're not that important. One person, manager or leader, is not that important. To lead with humility, with empathy, with honesty, and that it's all about building trust. And I think one thing that I later learned about John, that he was hugely successful, he was a CBE, but I didn't know that, and he never told me that. Somebody else told me that.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, I think it's that kind of, it doesn't really matter what you've achieved or what you've done before, it's all just about the moment. And, you know, people aren't gonna trust you just because you've got a legacy of achievements, they're gonna trust you of how you're operating and navigating in that moment. So, yeah, that's what I learned. You're only as good as your current day as a manager, rather than what you've achieved before. Secondly, the importance of employee voice. One thing that John did that blew my mind, bearing in mind I'd been with this company for 3 years already, and no senior manager had ever done this before, but he said to me, you know, right at the beginning of every quarter, I wanna sit down for half an hour with every single member of the team. And that was everyone, whether they were a senior coach, whether they were a brand new coach, whether they were admin, whether they were compliance team, whether they were actually on another team but worked very closely with us.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd so we're in our office 2 days a week. He wanted to sit down with them as well, and he spoke to every single person, how they were doing, what was working well, what perhaps wasn't working so well, areas for improvement, and just created a very safe space for them to give feedback to a very senior leader who is also the husband of the MD. Like, that is an intimidating situation to put an admin person in. Yeah. You know, who's very new to the team, the business, or very early in their career. Yet he facilitated those discussions that then meant that I had the feedback I needed to make the improvements that I needed to do to make an environment that was better and more supportive for the people in it. And I think that just then created this sense of teamwork and collaboration and transparency and psychological safety that we've talked a lot about before. Um, so yeah, the importance of employee voice. And the third thing, hide the wires. And it's funny, I've been talking about this on another podcast today, but hide the wires. So you basically said that even if you've had the shittiest day, even if you are getting pushed and pulled and dragged down and pressure from all angles, whether that be in work, whether it be at home, whether you're going through personal things as well. Hide the wires. Like, don't bring that in with you. Your team don't need you to put on your stress and emotion onto them. That's not going to be helpful to them in any way. And your only job as a manager is to enable the performance of others. Um, so yeah, if shit's going down, hide the wires.
Al ElliottSo you're saying hide the wires is one of the mistakes that a lot of managers make or could potentially make. What other mistakes do you see managers making?
Leanne ElliottI guess having— feeling that they need to have all the answers, feeling that they need to come up with every solution, not running those solutions past their people. And that's a mistake that I made, and one that I learned very quickly not to do again. But yeah, I think that's a big one, thinking you have to have all the answers. I think neglecting the people aspect of their job. Like, my— it was made very clear to me that my job as a manager was not to manage the contract, make the contract work. My job was to make— to manage the people, help the people work. And ultimately, because if we do that, we'll get more people into work, we'll have more impact on on their families and will break the cycle of multigeneration employability. I had such a clear vision and purpose, and my only real concern at all times was to make sure I was doing everything I could to help my team fulfill that mission. Everything else is important and needs to be dealt with, but the majority of my time should be spent on enabling others. Taking the time to nurture those relationships is really important. So, for example, empathy, having empathy, recognizing when someone's having a hard time, giving feedback, constructive feedback, specific feedback. If people have done something well, why was it so good that they did it in that way? If performance isn't so great, being brave enough to have those conversations early on so it doesn't escalate to a performance management situation.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd allowing people to question you, allowing people to challenge you. So I think one of the biggest breakthrough moments I had with one of my members of staff was when she was able to question my decisions. She was on a sabbatical with us. She applied for a permanent role. Various other things had happened. And whilst this role was meant to recruit my third coach, because of somebody leaving, I was recruiting my second coach.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd she just wasn't ready for that level of responsibility to be number 2. She needed that more senior support around her to make sure that she would succeed. And she questioned it. She was like, why? I've been here for 3, 4 months. I've been working my ass off, showing up every day. Why was it not me? I said, because you were never meant to be my number 2 coach. You're meant to be my number 3 coach, because I need to make sure that you will smash this, and you will smash this. With the support of 2 more experienced senior coaches. So believe me, and I am— the minute that we need a 3rd coach, and that moment is more than likely going to come in the next 6 to 8 weeks, you don't have to interview your, your coach number 3. And that in itself, she was like, okay, well, I get it then. I get it. Whereas if I hadn't created that environment where she could question that decision, and a very big decision to question as well, then she would have disengaged and she would have gone back to Her other department, and I would have lost an incredible coach. Yeah. He— people need to feel that they can, they can question your decisions. And as long as you have the integrity behind that decision, then you can explain it. And it's not gonna negatively impact their experience with any other engagement. It's gonna, if anything, impact it positively.
Al ElliottYou mentioned there that someone challenged you. What are some of the beliefs that you hold dear that a lot of people disagree with?
Leanne ElliottI think the concept of employee voice can be challenging for some people. And I know we talked about this quite a bit with Stefan a couple of episodes ago. I think there's a conception with employee voice that you have to do everything your team says, or you have to act on every piece of feedback that you get. And that's not the point. The point is creating an environment where people can speak up. And making sure when they do that they feel heard, because that 1 in 10 thing that you hear about that you otherwise wouldn't have may be the one thing that saves your business or saves your biggest customer or saves somebody from leaving. The other 9 might just be a case of acknowledging it, thanking them for their point of view, and explaining why right now that's not gonna be possible. I think there's a view that we need to bend over backwards, that coaches need to be this this kumbaya moment of everyone's happy and everyone's fulfilled and everyone's— yeah, of course. But, you know, the reality is the reason that that works is because there's mutual benefits for everybody. Having an engaging culture doesn't mean that you have to bend over backwards and do everything your employees say. It's creating an adult-to-adult environment, an adult-to-adult relationship. So I think fundamentally, I'm not sure people necessarily disagree with the values I hold. I think they may misunderstand some of the intent behind those values. But ultimately, I'm a business psychologist, emphasis on business. My role only exists if businesses exist, and businesses only exist if they make money.
Al ElliottYou're saying that people don't necessarily agree with you. One of the things which is your trigger words is the word fluff. So how would you react if a listener said all you're saying here is just psychological fluff?
Leanne ElliottUm, one, why are you listening, friend? I'm not sure this is the podcast for you. No, it's, it's science, isn't it? It's psychology, is the science of people. It's the science of human behavior. Um, and it's empirical. There's data. We conduct studies to understand how people behave and what impact those behaviors have on the commercial outcomes of a business. Um, so yeah, it's— I don't know, maybe, maybe there wasn't an element of fluff to, to some people and culture practitioners. Um, but I think if you genuinely want to create an environment in which people aren't burning out, in which people can sustain their role for a long period of time, that do feel fulfilled, um, then why wouldn't you nurture that? Because it's going to have a positive impact on your business. It's science, it's data, it's, you know, that's, that's what it is. And I think if it's fluff, my, my guesses would be that you are either accidentally doing these things and not realizing you're doing it, so therefore these interventions, these types of interventions fluffy, or you're on the brink of burnout and so are the rest of your team. Or I guess maybe you've worked with people before where it hasn't been very effective. But I think that's the point. You know, we work— Oblong, we work with people on interventions that we measure. We measure the impact 6 months later. We measure the impact 12 months after that. If there isn't a positive shift in the wellbeing of your employees and the performance of your business, then yeah, it was fluff. That intervention failed.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut it isn't fluff because there is an impact.
Al ElliottYou talk then about your work. So I'm curious, what would you say is your perfect workday?
Leanne ElliottI am quite introverted. So I think my perfect workday would be a balance of kind of work in my head. So doing kind of analysis and putting results together and talking to people as well, having that balance. But I think my favorite days in work are the days where I see people hit a breakthrough, whether that be people that I'm coaching and they suddenly get that, oh, they did that because I did this, and they thought, okay, yeah, those kind of breakthrough moments when people suddenly all realize all of a sudden that, oh, my behavior does impact my employees and how they think and feel and behave. Um, I find that satisfying because ultimately I, I want to be disposable. If I'm doing my jobs right, I'm a short, sharp intervention and And you don't need me again for 6 months, for 12 months. Um, you know, the whole point is building the capability of leaders. Um, and I think as well, when, as we, you know, we say the podcast, you know, understanding the complex world of people and culture, it's not that complex actually. It's fairly straightforward. Um, but gathering the data and the insights that you need for it to then seem straightforward can be the tricky part. And I think for me, when you see leaders that suddenly have this clarity in an area that before would cause them so many headaches and they just didn't know where to go, I guess seeing that relief, that reassurance, that drive kick back in, that entrepreneurial drive to go, okay, now I know what we need to do, I know the plan, now we can make it better. I think just, yeah, taking somebody from Where do I even begin? To, okay, I've got a very clear plan of action. That's a good day.
Al ElliottSo who, who's the dream client to work with?
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure I have one specific organization in mind. I think, I think it is, as I said, more about helping kind of those owner leaders just get, get a handle on all this. Because once they do, it's, it's easy. It's maintenance. But I think in terms of personally, it would be cool to work with a private welfare-to-work organisation again, reconnect with that. I think it would feel like a full circle moment. So to work with somebody like, I don't know, CTEC or Groundworks or that type of thing. But ultimately, I'm not— there's no one. I think that just makes it very much about me. And I'm not sure that is ever really my drive.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI want to feel like I'm helping and like I'm having an impact. But I know whether that impact is in an accountancy firm, a digital creative agency, or welfare-to-work organisation, that translates to happier, more fulfilled people. And that has a massive impact. It's not just then about our work selves, is it? If I'm happy and fulfilled in my work, I'm gonna be happy and fulfilled at home.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, I don't think there is a target client. I think with all clients, and the only clients that I will ever work with are those that That get it or are open to it. So, you know, they're unlikely to call it fluff. But even if they did, I think just being open-minded to this, this could change everything. So strap on your, you know, your big girl, your big boy pants. We've got this, but it's going to take commitment from you, an open mind, and a bit of hard work.
Al ElliottSo there seems to be a trend towards this year, and I'm guessing it's gonna, it's gonna continue next year, towards having outsourced sort of C-level chief people officers. Imagine that you were brought in as the chief people officer for Twitter, let's say. What would your first day look like?
Leanne ElliottI mean, maybe not Twitter because Lord knows where you'd start with that. I think that's without, beyond my realms of capability. I guess the things that I— if we're talking like people, you know, with that kind of an organization, those types of challenges, maybe an organization with high turnover or an organization that is struggling to find great talent. I think my first day, what would John do? That's where I start. And my first day is gonna be sitting down with people, having conversations. And I think first of all, understanding that You know, at a board level, is this a priority? Are we gonna take seriously that our turnover problem is more than likely down to the fact we are not creating an environment that engages people? We are pushing people to the point of burnout, and we don't have the managers in place to support people in the way they need to be supported. And I think if you, if you don't have that, that, I guess, consensus at board level, Then there's almost no point starting, because without that support from the most senior of levels, any intervention is gonna struggle. So, I think that'd be my first priority, would be to make sure it's on the board agenda. And yeah, have conversations, have conversations with managers, have conversations with people, gather the insights. You know, as you know, one of my favorite psychologists is a guy called John Amici, He says the most powerful thing that you can do is understand exactly where you are right now. And I think that's something that is so— it's not sexy, is it, for an organisation to be like, do you know what we need to do? We need to do a survey. So we need to know exactly how your people feel right now. That's not sexy. People want to talk about employer brand and all these wellbeing interventions that we can do. And that's the sexy stuff. But the reality is that stuff isn't going to work if it's not targeting the actual problem that you have in your business. So probably my first 2 months, let alone first day, is just gonna be figuring out exactly how people are thinking and feeling within the business, exactly what's working, exactly what's not, and then designing a roadmap to get us back on track. And that's when the sexy stuff comes in. But first, we need to do the work. We need to gather the data.
Al ElliottSo if you were gonna write a book then, what do you think you'd write the book about?
Leanne ElliottI think I would write a book that brings together culture, engagement, and wellbeing in a way that makes it accessible and makes it actionable. And I think— and this isn't— I mean, I didn't even know these questions. This isn't even about kind of promoting what we do at Upland or the RX7, which is our culture engagement wellbeing tool.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut I think what's so cool about the tool that we've developed and why I would want to expand on it is that it takes away the noise. You know, there's so much to think about as a business leader, and if you start to delve into people and culture, there's so many different topics. I mean, we just look at the topics we've covered already on our podcast, it can seem a bit overwhelming, I'm sure. Um, and I think the great thing about just distilling it down, talking about the, you know, 7 principles that you need to understand, you need to monitor, and you need to nurture within your business to create a culture that people are going to be engaged and fulfilled and experience positive well-being, and your business is going to grow. Let's just talk about these 7 things. And yeah, there's going to be complexities within those 7 things because it is the science of people, and people are complicated. And we all love Myers-Briggs because it puts us in a box, but it's bullshit, as we know. It doesn't work. These things are more complicated. But if we can distill it down into just 7 points, I think that's what I'd write about. And I think as well, there's this— I guess there's so much overlap between culture, engagement, and wellbeing, that even as a psychologist, sometimes I'm not entirely sure I get it, because there's so much going on, so much evidence and conflicting theories. But you know, it's— Distilling it down, getting the basics right. You know, it's, it's not even like the, the complicated things. It's like, do your people understand what their vision, the vision is? Do they understand why they're turning up for work every day and what impact they are individually having? That is massively powerful. Every organization out there has a vision. How many of your employees could name that vision? How many of them would tell you exactly what the organisation is trying to achieve and exactly what their role is within it? Start with that, because that is one of the biggest things you can do in terms of nurturing engagement and wellbeing. So yeah, start with that. What's your reason? What's your role? Yeah, I think he's just trying to simplify it. But yeah, rambling answer to a question. I'll probably write about the RX7 and how if you do nothing else in the first 10 years of your business, that'll serve you just fine.
Al ElliottWhat question have I not asked you that perhaps I should have done?
Leanne ElliottI think what's interesting is we kind of alluded to last week is that we've had very different professional journeys. Mine's been, you know, very much around education and vocation. Yours has been much more around entrepreneurialism and building businesses. I think, yeah, there's different routes and there's different reasons and there's different ways things work. But I think that's what being around people that challenge you to think differently, that challenge you to look at the world in a slightly different way— they're the people that are going to enhance you as a person. They get the people that are gonna help you grow and develop. And they're the people that we want in our businesses, you know. We want people that are going to challenge us. We want people that are gonna push back, they're going to question our decisions. Because you know what, if we're doing everything we should be doing, we're going to have a valid answer to those questions, valid reasons behind that pushback. And if we don't, then thank the Lord you've brought this to my attention, because this is a gap that, that requires my attention. So I think, yeah, maybe not. And this isn't something that's easily done, and definitely something that I've had to Had to grow into and still am, particularly in terms of feedback. But I think, you know, knowing that people generally, people are just trying to help. People rarely just wanna just, you know, mess with you to make your life worse.
Al ElliottYou've mentioned your mentor, John, quite a lot. And I know he's very— he's no longer with us. And I know that You are massively impacted by what he taught you. Do you think he'd be proud of what you're doing today?
Leanne ElliottThat question needs a trigger warning, Al. Yeah, I think he'd find it a laugh. I think he'd find it really funny because my journey with Pinnacle ended with— I should also just say, like, I did end up getting promoted to a position above the one I was demoted from. That's how good Jon was as a mentor. He was like, right, let's do this. So yeah, so my time with Pinnacle ended on a high in terms of what we achieved, low in terms of the contract was ending and I was subsequently made redundant. At that point, we'd been living in Spain for 2 years, never coming back to the UK. Jon was such a progressive leader. Bear in mind, the man was in like his 60s at this point.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottHe would have found it a laugh. I remember him saying to me, he's like, maybe there's a time that you just, you know, have a portfolio career, or, you know, start your own business, or travel the world to live life, do the work you love. I think he'd find it a real giggle that we'd been to so many different places and lived in different parts of the world and do what we do now. Yeah, I'm sad that he's not here to see it. I'm sad that he's not here to guide me. Um, but yeah, I think he'd be proud. I think he'd be as proud of what we've achieved personally, um, as much as what we've achieved professionally. Um, he was all about that work-life balance. Family is important. It's not all about work. Um, so yeah, I think he would. I think he'd We'd have a good chat over a couple of pints and, yeah, reminisce about the good old days, the bad old days, and how far we'd come.
Al ElliottI love it. Thank you, Leanne. That was fantastic. Just such honest answers to that. And also, like, you know, teaching us and translating the complex ideas into simple stuff. And I think it's brilliant. So shall we leave it there, Lee?
Leanne ElliottYes, I'm gonna go cry over a pillow.
Al ElliottWell, I'm sorry I made you cry, but I'm pleased that we had some— we got some great stuff.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I know it's important to remember these people and to be continually inspired by them. And whether, you know, maybe they're just not— we're not in contact with them anymore, but I think we learn so much from each other and other people. And I think that as well, where it is And I think we talk about this as well, that, you know, the responsibilities on the shoulders of leaders is huge. It is massive. But part of being a great leader is acknowledging that, because then you're going to take your job seriously. And it's those people that create the most awesome businesses to work with.
Al ElliottSo we're back next week with predictions for 2023 in the business of people.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottUm, and then we are going to be— we've got— we've recorded some fantastic episodes or interviews so far around burnout and around Britain's Healthiest Workplace Awards, which I believe have just been announced this last week, I think.
Leanne ElliottYeah, they have some really great interviews coming up. So yeah, and in January, we'll be talking a lot about wellbeing, a lot about burnout. And yeah, a lot of individual and organisational support as well. So, so yes, look forward to that. And as I said, we'll be back With 2 episodes on our predictions for 2023. If you have a prediction, get in touch, drop us an email, drop us a message. We'd love to hear from you.
Al ElliottYep. So if you're not subscribed yet, then click subscribe and all of our future episodes will pop straight into your app. You can find all of the show notes at truthliesandwork.com. And if you want to get in touch with us, there's a little box on that website where you can, you can basically pop in a question or anything you want, and you will get in touch with One of us. Thanks for listening, and we'll look forward to seeing you next week. Bye. Bye-bye.