Episode 19 · 4 January 2023 · 48:38
2023 Predictions in People & Culture (Part 2 of 2)
2023 Predictions in People & Culture (Part 2 of 2)
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Catch-up on predictions 1–6
Prediction 7: Hybrid and flexible working is here to stay
Prediction 8: Why transparency will be vital in 2023
Prediction 9: Wellbeing moves from perk to priority
Prediction 10: Using technology to manage burnout
Prediction 11: Diversity and inclusion: the next chapter
Prediction 12: Wearables and workplace wellbeing
Prediction 13: The single best investment you can make
Summary of all 13 predictions
Show notes
2023 Predictions in People & Culture (Part 2 of 2)
Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) return for the second half of their predictions series for 2023. No guests, no scripts — just the two of them, seven more predictions, and a fair amount of healthy disagreement.
In this episode, they tackle hybrid working's staying power, why transparency will separate the best employers from the rest, the role wearables might play in preventing burnout, and the single best investment you can make in your team this year. Plus, Leanne delivers her mantra for 2023 (courtesy of comedian Tom Allen), and Al does his best to keep up with the kids and their slang.
The 7 Predictions (Part 2)
1. Hybrid and flexible working is here to stay. Leanne's opening prediction is a gentle "I told you so" to anyone hoping we'd all be back at our desks by now. The key isn't whether people work flexibly — it's getting to grips with how to do it well.
2. Transparency will be vital. Al predicts a reckoning for businesses that talk a good game on culture but hide the real numbers. When employees see profits soar while pay stays flat, the trust gap becomes a chasm. Transparency breeds trust and psychological safety — but only if you're sharing the challenges, not just the wins.
3. Wellbeing becomes a business priority. Not a perk, not a poster on the wall — a genuine strategic focus. Leanne's point: a culture of genuine wellbeing could actually reduce salary expectations, because people value feeling human at work over a few extra quid.
4. Technology steps up for burnout prevention. Data is the starting point. If you can measure workload, stress patterns and engagement, you can intervene before people flame out — not after.
5. Diversity and inclusion matures. The conversation moves beyond representation targets to genuine inclusion — and yes, it might get uncomfortable. Al's challenge: go and speak to your teams, and ask what would actually make a difference.
6. Wearables enter the wellbeing conversation. Al's "awkward wearables segment" — the ethics, privacy and practical realities of using biometric data to support (not surveil) employees. The line between support and surveillance is a fine one, and it's coming.
7. The single best investment: your managers. Great managers are the difference between thriving and surviving at work. If you only do one thing in 2023, invest in the people who lead your people.
🔥 Highlights Worth Revisiting
- The Tom Allen mantra: Leanne kicks off with comedian Tom Allen's approach to 2023: "Sit down and shut up." Her point? Sometimes the best leadership move is listening.
- The transparency reckoning: Al's prediction that employees are done with being kept in the dark — especially when the company is "making bank."
- The gammon moment: Al's self-diagnosis as a "straight white middle-aged male" leads to a genuinely thoughtful conversation about who gets to lead the D&I conversation.
- The manager multiplier: The final prediction lands with real weight — if you've only got budget for one thing, make it great management.
📚 Resources & Links
- The book Al was trying to recall (and couldn't): Nobody Wants to Read Your Sht* by Steven Pressfield
- Find Leanne on LinkedIn and Twitter
- For bonus content, full interviews and sneak peeks of future episodes, follow the show on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok and YouTube
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottBut I think that's the interesting thing, isn't it? With all the different technology available right now, how can we use it for good?
Al ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, the podcast that aims to simplify the science of people. My name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne, I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd so if you are brand new here, then you'll see that we cover basically anything to do with workplace culture and people. Leanne is definitely the expert in this. So there's a lot of stuff that Leanne will be talking about. But I've got experience in terms of the actual practical application of running businesses, etc., managing people. And so we are going on to part 2, I think today, aren't we?
Leanne ElliottWe are part 2 of our predictions for 2023 in people and culture. If you are joining us at part 2, you rebel, I like you already. Um, you can go back to listen to part 1 if you want, and then, and then come back. We'll, we'll wait, just hit pause. Um, but if, if not, just dive into this one, why not? And then go back. There are no rules here.
Al ElliottThere's no rules. You can do whatever you want when you're in our house, as long as you take your shoes off. And put the toilet seat down. Okay. So should we quickly go through the 6 predictions we made in part 1, and then we'll go on to our— I think we've got 7 in this one.
Leanne ElliottWe do.
Al ElliottSo do you want to kick things off, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYeah, our first prediction was that the fight for talent will continue, but it will shift to a more sustainable competency-based strategy. Want to know more? Go back and listen.
Al ElliottNumber 2, I think was Leanne came up with this one, which is about talent retention. And she's saying essentially that there's going to be a shift from the fight for talent, the attraction to actually retaining employees and trying to get people to stay rather than just looking for the next big shiny person.
Leanne ElliottYes. And number 3, which was actually ours, was an increased collaboration between people and culture teams and sales and marketing teams. There are lessons that we can learn from each other, there's knowledge to share. So that was prediction number 3.
Al ElliottPrediction number 4 was that Leanne's— was one of Leanne's, and she was saying that this is going to be the year for professional development. We're going to see a lot more people who are into professional development and companies who are willing to invest professional development.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think it's been a massive source of competitive advantage in, in 2023, investment in professional development. And prediction number 5, um, AI, and specifically, um, AI coaches as a first line of defense in terms of employee well-being and burnout. A really interesting point Al made there.
Al ElliottHmm. And then finally, Leanne suggesting that, um, the year in 2023, along with personal professional development, will be that people will have coaches. There'll be a lot more people who are getting coaches for lots of different things. And so it'll be the year of the coach.
Leanne ElliottThe year of the coach.
Al ElliottYes, the Chinese New Year of the coach. So do you wanna kick off with your first prediction for, or, well, not your first, but this will be the, now the 7th prediction for people and wellbeing and engagement and all that good stuff in 2023. That was a bit of a clumsy introduction. Do you wanna just crack straight into it?
Leanne ElliottShould we just carry on? We were watching, if you're in the UK, or indeed if you just enjoy watching BBC television from wherever you are in the world, there was an episode episode of Saturday Kitchen, wasn't there like a New Year one we actually watched after the New Year? Very funny. What's the guy's name on it?
Al ElliottTom Allen.
Leanne ElliottTom Allen. So funny. But he said his mantra for 2023 is sit down and shut up. So I think we can't take that literally because we wouldn't have a podcast. But, uh, in terms of fumbling, I think that should just be it. I would just— you know what, over to you. I'm now gonna sit down and shut up.
Al ElliottSo I'm gonna sit down, shut up, and listen to Leanne. So what is your 7th prediction, Leah?
Leanne ElliottMy 7th prediction, hybrid working and flexible working is here to stay. I'm sorry, guys, if you don't like it and you're not on board with it. I think 2023 is going to be the year you're going to have to start to buy into it. It is here to stay. I think that we are going to see more, more patterns embedded of hybrid work. I think organisations are going to start to figure out exactly what it is that, that works for them in terms of hybrid. But I think it's here to stay. The employees have spoken, and hybrid and flexible working is something they want. In terms of here to stay, I think I think there will be a bit more of a shift back to the office. I think we will see probably 40% of the working week happen from the office. But importantly, to make this work, I think there needs to be intention behind why employees are being called back into the office. Yeah, we know onboarding can be more challenging, but we did it during the pandemic. We know that knowledge sharing and collaboration can be more challenging, challenging, but again, we've made that work. That said, if you're finding in your business that you're not getting the same level of knowledge sharing, you're not getting the same level of creativity and innovation happening within your teams, and you feel that bringing people back to the office is a way to enable that, fine. But make sure you actually enable it when you're in the office. Don't just use it as an excuse and then not do anything with it. And I think this is gonna have such a big impact, both in terms of employees wanting to engage in working in the office again, but also in terms of leaders actually seeing then the impact on what they're missing. So, I think you're probably as well having one day a week where people, or one day fortnight even, where people need to come back into the office, but that'll be for very specific activities, specific conversations that need to happen. And yeah, and you'll see the impact from those, I think.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI think it is going to be key to talent attraction and talent retention, which we talked about in the last episode. But again, I think it's going to have to link to culture. And I think, I think we've mentioned this on another episode, but if hybrid and remote working isn't currently working for you, it's probably indicating that something within your culture that's not quite working right. Either people don't have the right purpose, people don't have clarity over their role, they're not being supported by their colleagues or managers. It's more than likely going to be one of the 7 foundations of culture that we talk about in the RX7. Again, if you haven't listened, go back to episode— which one did we talk about that?
Al ElliottUm, I can't remember, but I'll put it in the show notes.
Leanne ElliottI think it's Stefan on how to build great teams, psychological safety. We go through the 7 foundations there, but basically we've developed this framework to help leaders and businesses identify where the sticking points might be in the business, where the hotspot risk areas might be, and if hybrid and Remote working isn't currently working for you, I would argue it indicates some kind of challenge you're experiencing within your culture right now. So, my advice would be to figure that out first, and then figure out your policy around remote and hybrid working. And in terms of flexible working, I think this is also gonna be very important. So, you know, is that working day fixed? Is it a 9 to 5? Is it an 8 till 4? Is it a 10 till 6? Can people go out for a run in the morning and sit down at their desk at half past 9? Can they do a wash during the day? Can they have a hair appointment during the day? All these different types of flexible working, I think, will be a conversation as well. And I think we're going to see that extend to frontline workers, so non-knowledge-based roles. And in particular, I think things like more input into their scheduled— into their shifts, more fixed schedules potentially. I guess allowing that flexibility within roles that aren't as easily flexible. I think we're going to see that in 2023.
Al ElliottYeah. I mean, hybrid work isn't, isn't a new thing. If you know anything about other people, the makers of Basecamp, which are now called Basecamp, but were called 37signals, they were distributed across the world in lots of different time zones. There's, there's, I know HubSpot have got a similar sort of structure.
Leanne ElliottThey're remote first. Yeah.
Al ElliottRemote first. So it, it, it's not a new thing. It can work. It was enforced on a lot of people and like anything, it was enforced. And so we, we had this adjustment period. We're, you know, you've had 18 months now to adjust to it, um, and it's what most employees want. Um, so, you know, why are we trying to fight it? We should definitely be, be thinking about that.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think similarly, there are, there are employees as well that want to be back in the office, but they want to be back in the office for specific reasons. They want to be there to, to build relationships with their, their team members. They want to learn from their leaders. They want to be coached. They want to feel that they're part of something bigger. That purpose is going to be really important. Um, so yeah, I think there are going to be employees that want to be back in the office, but again, it's the intention behind that that is going to be so important in 2023.
Al ElliottSo that brings me on nicely to prediction number 8, which is mine, which is going to be a lot more transparency, or there should be a lot more transparency in a business. Now, whether it's— I mean, why I originally thought about this in terms of, uh, revenues, profits, uh, We've both worked with clients who, who are fanatical about keeping it secret. And, you know, oh, we don't make any money. We don't make any money. Yet a fairly simple calculation by looking at their prices and how much they pay their employees, anyone can work out that they are actually stacking fat stacks, I think the kids call it.
Leanne ElliottIs it?
Al ElliottThey're making, they're making bank. They're making bag.
Leanne ElliottYou're so old.
Al ElliottI really am. I don't know what any of these mean. Um, I'm sure one of them might be from Breaking Bad anyway. Um, so I think the whole point is that transparency is that if you have the balls to say, look, we'll just share with everyone what our revenue is this quarter, what our profit margins are this quarter. I'm not saying necessarily sharing what other people have been getting paid, although if you wanna be brave, I mean, that's— there's— what was that guy who, um, who basically put everyone on the same salary, including themself? I think it was about $70,000 a year or something.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottEveryone went on it. The company's just increased tenfold, 20-fold in terms of revenue, profits, all that kind of stuff. But my point is about transparency. I think that if you don't have transparency, then you have resentment. And if you go onto Reddit, for example, I mean, I'm sure you know what Reddit is, but basically it's sort of a big online forum that's been going on for about 15, 20 years. And there's an entire, like, they call them subreddits. It's kind of like a topic, which is called anti-work.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd the whole idea of that is that people are like, employees are boasting about how they get away with not doing the work they're supposed to do, or how they find shortcuts and stuff. And there's such a, there's such a feeling of us and them, of, you know, you'll see someone going, oh well, I saved the company a load of money, and the first comment which will be upvoted will be like, oh, I bet the owners don't share it with you. You know, and you don't know that situation. Maybe they did. But the whole point is that, that I think a lot of employees feel it's an us and them situation. And just by being transparent with everything, then everything you can be, then trusting people with the numbers and trusting them to make the, the right decisions on that. I mean, I think that's— why is that not a good idea?
Leanne ElliottI agree. I think transparency is so important in breeding trust, in creating psychological safety, and coming back to it again, we've talked about this so much recently, creating these adult-to-adult relationships. You know, we'll, we'll speak to some, some businesses and business leaders, and they'll say things like, oh, I just can't trust people to get the job done, or I'm constantly battling so-and-so, or I just want them to behave like adults. And it's like, are you treating them like adults?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAre you sharing where the business currently is and the challenges it's currently facing, or are you hiding things from them? And that is, like you say, it's gonna, it's gonna breed mistrust, it's gonna breed resentment. And an adult-to-child relationship. You can't have it both ways. If you wanna not be transparent and keep everything very close to you, these are the behaviors that you're gonna expect from your employees. And it might be that in some environments that'll work. I can't think of one because I don't think it does. But yeah, realistically, transparency is, is so important, I think.
Al ElliottYep. And I think one of the, one of the 7 Rs in our RX7 is reason. Um, and if, if everyone knows the reason why they're doing what they're doing on a macro scale, like what we're doing as a business, even to the point of why am I inputting all this data into an Excel spreadsheet? What's my reason for doing this? If you're transparent about it and going, look, this is what this is gonna do is potentially find this one more contract that these sales guys are gonna go through with this 100, 100 people you put through, and one of them might be worth a million pound to us, which will, which will mean that we can employ, employ 6 more people and XY and open this and open that. You know, it's just transparency. And I think, I think just like Leanne said, treat them like adults because they are adults in most cases. And if they're not, if they treat, if they act like kids continually with an adult-to-adult relationship, maybe that's time to say goodbye.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think, again, you know, we talked about professional development. We talked about coaching. And, and this is an element of the psychosocial development we were talking about. It's that communication, it's that understanding. It might be that negotiation as well. If you are making a lot of profit and can't really justify where that's going other than your own pocket, you might get a bit of kickback on that. I don't know. But yeah, I think it is. It's fundamental, essentially, particularly with the increased disruption, increased uncertainty. We already know we don't like uncertainty. Our brains don't like it. We go into a threat state. That's when we start to disengage. The fight for talent, the fight for attention is real, and I think transparency is going to play a really big role in winning both of those battles.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Okay, so prediction number 9, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottPrediction number 9 is wellbeing. I think we start to see this more in 2022, and already my feed is full, and I think that's typical of January anyway, uh, full of lots of things around wellbeing and wellness and mental health. I think it is going to be the top of the top of the agenda for the majority of businesses in 2023. And if you're listening and this isn't on your agenda, it should be. I think we're going to see increased investment, increased measurement, um, increased interventions. I think it's going to play a central part of employer brand. Um, but equally, as I think we mentioned last time, I think leaders are going to start to invest much more in, in their well-being this year. And as well, you know, a holistic approach to it, a rounded approach to it, or what some people are calling a whole person approach to it, from financial wellbeing to social wellbeing to mental health. There's gonna be so many different elements we can support our people with, we can support our managers with, and we can support ourselves with as leaders. So I think wellbeing is gonna be really important, and it's gonna be critical to employer brand, critical to attracting talent, and critical to retaining talent.
Al ElliottYeah, 100%. And, and I totally agree. This was one of the ones I came up with as well. Which is not really surprising, seeing as our entire company is based on wellbeing and engagement. It was clearly that was gonna pop up there. But, but also from a, from a, like a kind of a commercial point of view, you know, you look at all these studies and they say that the 5th reason why someone loves their job is the salary. So there's 4 things above that. It's kind of almost lazy to go, oh, do you know what? We'll just throw some money at the problem and we'll just, we'll just hike everyone's salaries up so we attract the best, the best talent. That's not gonna attract the best talent. That's gonna attract the people who want the most money. And they're not necessarily the people who are the best talent, people who, who have this shared purpose, people who have a reason for doing, for wanting to work somewhere. You know, they, you can go and earn a quarter million pound a year, quarter million dollars a year as an investment banker, but that's not really the environment that most people would thrive in. In fact, I would argue it's very difficult to thrive in that unless you've got some kind of personality disorder, perhaps. I don't know. I mean, that's just my personal opinion, um, because that would definitely not be for me. So I think the whole idea is that wellbeing is not just like an add-on or a, oh, well, let's do a bit of wellbeing. It can actually be the difference between paying someone X amount of money or X times 1.5 amount of money, because if you've got a great workplace culture, then you don't necessarily need to pay the top, top, top whack.
Leanne ElliottI agree. And if you are a, a small to medium-sized business, you are always gonna You know, be outbid by larger companies who have the resources to offer higher salaries. That's just the way it is. You need to figure out another reason, and wellbeing is a really good one. In terms of throwing money at the problem, there are so many interventions I think that businesses already have where they're throwing money at it. They have, or they used to, probably more pre-pandemic, but nice offices with beanbags and ping pong tables, sushi Fridays, which does my nut in. Gym memberships, all this kind of stuff. Does though, do those things enhance wellbeing? Under particular circumstances, and if the awareness is good and the accessibility is good, yes. But what's gonna improve wellbeing more, as Al said, is having a clear purpose. It's gonna be helping employees connect that purpose to their individual roles, having great managers who support, who support the development of their employees. Those 3 things alone are gonna have a much bigger impact on employee wellbeing and workplace culture than anything else that I mentioned previously.
Al ElliottSo there you go. You don't necessarily need to throw money at the problem. You don't necessarily need to, need to pay the most amount of money to get the greatest people. So my prediction number 10 is that technology is gonna help us to predict burnout. Burnout is such a big, big thing. And I, I think that I feel like over the last sort of 18 months, it's become a lot more acceptable to talk about burnout. Before that, I felt like you didn't talk about burnout. People were like, oh, you know, always, he's off with stress. Of course he is, you know, or she's taken this time off. Can't cope. Can't cope. And I think now we, we're a bit, we're having, like Leanne said before, adult conversations about burnout. Now my thought is that there's lots of technology out there.
Leanne ElliottMhmm.
Al ElliottWhere we can, I think we can probably fashion something that will predict and measure people's performance and predict burnout. I'm thinking now, this is just sort of my thoughts. This isn't necessarily going to be the best solution. But for example, we've seen a lot of reports where they monitor anonymously people's usage of emails and Microsoft apps. I think Microsoft Admin Center has a way that you can monitor how much people are using it and what times and stuff. Well, if someone is, you know, sort of sending an email at 5 in the morning and then sending the last email at 10 o'clock at night, is that not someone who is a candidate? for burnout. If we can actually do this, if we can measure this, then surely we can start to predict it, and we can start to put some kind of intervention in place. What does the psychologist think of this?
Leanne ElliottI agree. I agree. I think, yeah, I, I think, as always, data is, is your starting point, collecting that data. And, and, but then also understanding what that data means. For example, to use your example, Al, if somebody's working to the, you know, their workday spans 5 AM to 10 PM pretty much continuously, then that is a fast track to burnout. That said, if somebody has flexible working hours and is shifting their day, then it might be actually that that's working better for them and is helping them do their job in a way that's more sustainable for them. Maybe not exactly in that example, because you have to factor sleep into that as well, and sleep is another thing. Yeah. Important, rest is important, but it's not necessarily jumping to that conclusion, I think. And, and I know you don't want to hear this, listener. I know you want a blanket, do this, it'll be fine. Um, but the reality is people aren't that simple, um, and everyone has different circumstances, and context is so important. And that is why we, you know, we talked about this in the previous episode of Predictions. It's still going to be about collecting data, but much more focus on what does that data actually mean, how can we apply it with our business, and how can we make the right changes and measure them as well? So I think, yeah, I think this is a really good way to start collecting data, especially in hybrid or remote environments where we're not seeing people face to face as often. I think this type of data is going to be really important so long as it is— effort is put into to understand it, and interventions are tailored to the people, tailored to the company, and their impact is measured.
Al ElliottDefinitely. If you're interested in burnout, then we've got a few episodes coming up in January all about burnout. We've got some really, really good experts who are gonna talk about burnout. Um, and, uh, and so, yeah, if you're not subscribed, click subscribe, and that'll make sure that, uh, you won't miss those episodes. So I think we're on to prediction number 11. Leanne, it's your turn.
Leanne ElliottWe are. And my prediction, uh, my number 11, um, is diversity and inclusion, uh, will continue to be a very important topic of conversation within businesses. Um, but I think again that, that focus is gonna shift to inclusion and really how we can make sure that, you know, the diversity we have within our organisations, that people feel included, people are able to contribute, people are able to bring their whole self to work. In terms of this, I think it's going to play a big role in the fight for talent and again, the fight for retention. I think as well, you know, if you think about, think about from a talent perspective, remote and hybrid working has opened up the recruitment world, it's opened up talent pools. We're no longer just looking within, you know, a certain, you know, circumference around where our place of office is and what talent there is within that catchment area. We're looking much more broadly. We're looking nationally, or we're maybe even looking internationally. But with that does come a responsibility to make sure that the diversity we're recruiting into our business feels included and feels supported. I think as well the diversity conversation is going to continue to expand in scope. I think we're going to be hearing much more, and again, I started to hear bits of this last year, but a lot more around women and people of colour in leadership teams. And as well, we know that the statistics show us that having this diversity, performance is up by 30%, profitability is up by 35%. You know, it's having this diversity and and that translate into representation, but also diversity of thought, is a huge point of competitive advantage. So I think we'll see the scope widen as well. Um, I think what was interesting, I heard a lot more about menopause last year, um, and women's health a lot more. And that may well have been driven as well by the events we saw in the US in 2022. Gender identification, neurodiversity. Um, yeah, I think it's gonna It's going to continue to grow the conversation. I think what will be important as well this year is going to be managing any—I don't want to say backlash—but maybe resistance to increasing diversity agendas. I think there is a feeling with with some that it can create an us and them dimension, and I think that if that is the case, those conversations need to be had very openly. We need to. address it. We need to learn from each other. Again, it's that adult-to-adult conversation, those uncomfortable conversations. But what are your thoughts, Al, as a straight white male? How do you feel the diversity conversation has impacted you?
Al ElliottStraight white middle-aged male. I think, I think the kids call me a gammon. I think that's, I think that's my name. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's felt up until a couple of years ago, more like a PR play. And I felt that I think that people go, well, I have to do this. And now people are understanding that first of all, thanks to likes of TikTok and stuff, there's a lot more people who are on all kinds of spectrums who you're getting a lot, you're seeing a lot more. There's one guy who's got Tourette's who's on TikTok, and I follow quite a lot of his stuff. I think actually I probably follow on YouTube Shorts. I'm too old for TikTok. But it's just the kind of that thing was just normal. Normalizes the idea of Tourette's, for example, whereas 10 years ago that would have been, oh, it's funny, yeah, he's got Tourette's. And now it's just like, oh, okay, a bit— I understand a bit more about that. So I think there's that, but there's also the idea that once you— once you do the diversity play, then there's lots and lots of different qualities and, and experiences and skills that people bring. And then you do the inclusion, and then it's, it's like, well, we should all— we all want to feel included regardless of, of how we present or whatever. We want to feel included. So I think it's got that double edge that you're going to get more diverse talent, therefore more diverse talents, and also everyone is going to feel included. And therefore, let's look— I mean, let's be honest, that the millennials and the Gen Zs, they are much more open about presenting however they want to present. If they then communicate with a company and find that there's someone who they— I'm using inverted commas— are like them Then, you know, there's goodwill going on there. So there's also a marketing and sort of customer success play on that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I agree. Inclusion is so important. Again, it comes back to this ability to bring your whole self to work, which, you know, supports wellbeing, which supports creativity and innovation, it supports performance. And this isn't to market as a PR exercise or, you know, a commercial opportunity, but the reality is organisations that that are good at diversity inclusion do perform better because people can use all of their skills, all of their talents, and they can operate in an environment where they feel safe to do so. So it does make a difference. So, um, so yeah, I think it's gonna be interesting. I think we'll definitely need to— because I think what Al and I are very aware of, and I think, you know, representation is very important in, in diversity inclusion discussions, and we are white and we are middle-aged.
Al ElliottYou're not. You're not.
Leanne ElliottNot quite, but not far off. Don't look a day over 21. Um, so, you know, we're not the authority in this, and we're gonna, we're gonna bring in people who are, and, and we can learn from as well, and, and help to educate us and, and our listeners as well. Um, but yeah, I think it's going to be a very interesting, um, landscape for diversity inclusion in 2023, and hopefully some really positive shifts as well.
Al ElliottDo you know, you make a really, really good point there. Something I hadn't considered until you just said it was that, um, diversity inclusion probably isn't going, okay, I'm going to add more thing to our company charter is that we're going to be diverse and inclusive this in 2023. Um, if you are a couple, and a lot weirdly, a lot of, a lot of our listeners tend to be couples running a business. Um, if you're a couple, you're both white, you're both straight, how can you possibly, how can you possibly understand the difficulties and how can you possibly implement something without a little bit of external help? So I think go and find people. You can go and find consultants. But you can probably also look inwardly in your team and say, look, we are trying to be a bit more, you know, a bit more inclusive, a bit more divergent. Divergent? Diversant? What's that? I don't quite know how to conjugate that.
Leanne ElliottDiverse?
Al ElliottDiverse is exactly the word I'm looking for. So perhaps go and speak to your teams and go, look, you know, has anyone got any friends? If you're not, you know, if you don't represent one of these particular groups, have you got any friends who can come in and help us? So I think it's— don't try, don't feel like you have to go off and just go, I'm gonna go and If you don't have, like, Leanne and I don't have the skills to be able to do this, we're gonna go get someone to come and help us do it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I agree. And I think it is about, I think some of the uncomfortableness, and, and I think again, as I said, some of that, that resistance can be a case of, oh, I'm, I'm afraid of asking a question in case I offend somebody or I get something wrong. And, and I think that's one, cool that you're thinking that way because it's really important that you are mindful about what you say and how you act. Equally, People aren't gonna expect you to get it right all the time because often, you know, someone else's right is different to somebody else's in terms of, of all sorts of different things. Um, and Al and I have made mistakes as well with, you know, within our network, personally and professionally. We've, we've made mistakes and we've had conversations about it. We've, we've educated. Luckily enough, we have, you know, people within, within our network and friends who are, who are willing to sit there and educate us.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd we're the better for it. So I think, yeah, and I think that's going back to that, you know, inclusion is going to be really about having those conversations, tackling any, you know, pockets of resistance within your organisation, and really starting to think about what does it really mean to be a diverse and inclusive organisation.
Al ElliottYeah, and just being curious. I think if you've started your own business, Then you're curious about something. You've been curious. You, you've gone, I don't know how this works. I'm gonna go and work out how it works. And you've gone and asked questions and learned, and it's not been something that you've learned overnight. So don't put too much pressure on yourself. And as you, as, as Leanne said, I think people will, if you do make mistakes, if you do misgender or you do, you do say something, you know, just make sure people know that you're open to, to being told that's not cool and this is the reason why. And like Leanne alluded to before, go and ask people. The majority of people who we know who fit into this D and I sort of like, I don't know how to category, they would love to sit down and explain to you why they believe certain things, why they present a certain way. They're perfectly happy to talk about it. And so just don't be afraid to ask.
Leanne ElliottYep. I agree. And I think, I think the only thing that I might say, if you are a business owner and you're looking around your organization and everyone is fitting a similar demographic, it might be worth getting in touch with an expert in diversity inclusion, just having that initial conversation. Because I think, I mean, from one perspective, you might be alienating people within your business if they are within a very small minority, and they might not be able to, you know, they're not experiencing that psychological safety. Or it might be as well you're missing out on huge opportunities, as I said, to bring different strengths and skills and, and outlooks into the business. So if, yeah, if you're looking around and everyone's kind of looking the same, that might be something to put on your, your 2023 agenda.
Al ElliottDefinitely.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie Indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work, and we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is; it's such it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing, but there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Leanne ElliottI'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in. Brilliant. Okay, so my final— well, my final one, which is the penultimate one, is And number 12 is a prediction around wearables. Now, this is a bit of a difficult one, and I don't have all the answers around this. When I say a wearable, I mean something like an Apple Watch, a Samsung Watch, something that monitors your body in some way. Now, it just seems that if there's a way in which we can monitor our employees' stress levels or, or vital signs through wearables, there must be a way in which we can, we can ensure that we kind of We can step in when some— when something's going wrong. Now, the reason why I'm stammering a bit on this, because I don't have— this is not a fully formed thought. There's lots of privacy issues to do to go around here. But I want to talk a little bit for a second about Vitality, which is an insurance company. I think they're South African. And we spoke to someone from Vitality, and this interview is coming up in the next couple of episodes. And what's really interesting about their, their insurance model is that most insurance companies, they have a big department and they pay them a lot of money to defend the claims. So their entire job is to try not to pay out on a claim, and they'll do everything they can to avoid it. Whereas what Vitality are doing, instead of going defense, they're going preventative. So what they're trying to do is prevent the claims in the first place by giving people the tools to be healthier, to be happier, to avoid the claim through— or the— I mean, avoid getting ill in the first place, I suppose, is what it really boils down to. So this is not a fully formed thought. I don't know. There are people out there far cleverer than I who are going to be able to work this one out. But surely if we are able to monitor someone's blood pressure, someone's movement, where they are, etc., etc., then as long as we don't use that for any kind of nefarious, like, purpose to track them, as long as we use it in a way which is actually genuinely there to help them, I can't help but think there's something around that. Now, what's your thoughts about this in terms of, um, in, in terms of like the validity of this or even just these intrusion ideas?
Leanne ElliottIt is, it is a complicated one from a, as you say, privacy, ethics, moral issues there. Um, but assuming all of those things are considered and worked out, data collection, you know, I'll always go on about this. Data means insights. Insights mean impactful interventions that are actually going to make a difference. So yes, in principle, I agree, this could be a really interesting route for organisations to go down. 2, I think again, it's about intent. What is the intent behind gathering that, that data? Transparency around how that data is used, to go back to one of your earlier points, Al, Mm-hmm. is going to be really important. Um, and I think a good example of that that we've seen recently is maybe the use of Toggl or other kind of time tracking apps.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAre they being used to keep tabs on people to make sure they're working when they're not in the office, or are they being used to make sure that people aren't overly working when they're not in the office, when you haven't got eyes on them? Or, you know, to understand the relationship between time spent on a client and money made, you know, starting to, to prioritises clients that are more commercially impactful, I think can be really useful for. So it's around the intent, it's around the transparency. And I think the third thing that's really important about what you said there is about prevention rather than treatment of the issue. And I think this is kind of the, the swing we're going to see in wellbeing as well. Things like mindfulness at lunch, stress management, counselling, they're all reactive interventions to a high-stress environment. Prevention is creating, creating an environment that nurtures wellness and well-being. So again, I think if wearables are used in a way of prevention, um, and specifically in terms of helping your employees, um, create positive working behaviors and habits, then that's really good. And I think that there is potentially a dark side to this in terms of privacy, in of ethics, in terms of potentially managing people out whose behaviours aren't changing rather than supporting them to change, which would require, you know, a lot more investment if you do find that to be the case in your business. So I think it's, it's a complicated area, but I think it's one that is used with the right intention, um, could, could actually work really well.
Al ElliottYeah, I think, as I said, this is, this is in no way suggesting that you go and get— make people wear watches, because I mean There's, there's all kinds of ways around this. Like, we, we have a couple of friends, um, who, they're all, they're always funny because they're very competitive. They, um, you know, from Spain, um, very competitive. And, um, they had this competition who could do 10,000 steps. Um, and so, so, um, the idea was they'd win something or between the two of them, the competition. So the wife, um, thought it was very funny just to take her, uh, at the time it was a Fitbit, I think, take her Fitbit, attach it to the dog's collar and let him run off for an hour. So she got her 10,000 steps there. And then the next day they were going out, I think, for, to a party or something. And so, and so he's like, well, I'm gonna go. I'm, I'm not gonna lose to that. So he went and found a girl who was dancing and get and put the watch on her and then sat at the bar and had a few beers while she danced away for 40 minutes and got him his 10,000 steps. So I think there's, there's just, you know, there's ways you can manipulate it. I don't know, have the answers. I do think that we are sitting on a potential way to monitor in a good way. monitor vitals. I just don't know quite how that's gonna work.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I'm, I'm with you. I'm with you. I think there's definitely, there's definitely merit in this idea. And I think we'll, you know, we'll talk probably a bit more about it when we do. Um, we have some upcoming episodes on, on wellness and, and burnout, so I'm sure we'll touch on it again then. Um, but I think that's the interesting thing, isn't it? With all these different, all the different technology available right now, how can we use it for good? What measures do we need to put in place to make sure it isn't used for bad? Um, and I think also, you know, how does it feed into a wider strategy? Um, because otherwise wearables will just become mindfulness at lunch.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. Okay, so I think you have got the final one, which is number 13. What's your prediction, number 13, Leanne Elliott?
Leanne ElliottMy final prediction for 2023, and this is a bit of an extension from my one From the last episode on coaching and that trickling down into mid-management level. I— this is less of a prediction and more of a hope, a wish, but that finally organisations will, will really start to appreciate the importance of having great managers in their business and investing in manager development.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottIf there is one thing you do in your business, if there's one thing you wanna focus on in 2023 to get right, It's having great managers in your business. 60% of the variance in employee engagement, which is also very closely linked to employee wellbeing, is down to the manager. Huge percentage. It's the old, it's the old saying, isn't it? People leave— people don't leave a manager— no, people don't leave a job, they leave a bad manager.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottOr a bad boss. This stems from a point that it's true because data shows us Evidence shows us that great managers are the most— one of the most effective things you can do to support the engagement and the wellbeing of your people. And management is something that can be trained. It can be trained. I think the days of leaders are born, not made is long gone.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottI think there are arguments for people may have personalities that are more in line. with some of the, the characteristics or typical behaviours of a good manager. But that's not to say they can't be developed, particularly if somebody has an interest in it and has a desire and a passion to be a good manager. Um, it can be developed. So, I really hope, really hope that 2023 finally is the year that we start to invest more heavily in our managers. And in terms of investment, I think that looks like, first of all, Defining within your business what it means to be a great manager. What are the behaviours and traits that you want to see? What is the role of a manager? And how is their people management responsibilities balanced within their job? You know, if they're overly busy doing more transactional elements of their job and don't have time to spend on their people, that's probably not gonna work very well. So, I think redefining roles of managers within business is a really good place to start. Identifying the behaviors that you want to see, linking that to your culture. If you have values within your business, and I'm sure you do, have you expanded those values to include what what those behaviors look like? How do you know that people are living and breathing these values? And that starts with your managers. Then you know investing in fresh training, new training, coaching, and more around I think behaviors and. Again, these, these kind of communication, influence, interpersonal skills, listening, all of these things that, that, you know, that will help managers so much in terms of their competence, but also in terms of their effectiveness, and in turn then their performance broad— more broadly within the business. And ongoing support, which comes back to the coaching element again. It's not enough to just put somebody through a management course once and go, good luck, Godspeed, I hope everything goes well, because we know the shifts in the workplace are huge. It's changing all the time. Pressures are constantly being put on, on mid-managers in particular. They need that ongoing support as well.
Al ElliottAnd I think you've touched on something really, really important there. If there is one skill, if you've only got a very small budget and there's one thing that you can put your everyone in your organisation through, In terms of training, it is listening, how to listen better. We talked about this in the previous episode. We mentioned that Leanne and I were both Samaritans in the UK, which basically is a listening service. And it's, it's the best training we've ever had. If you want to be sales, if you want to even do marketing, if you want to be a leader, if you want to be in customer support, if you want to be in retentions, you know, it's a brilliant, brilliant skill. So if there's one thing that you do do, we hope you do lot more. But if there's one thing you do in this first quarter of 2023, it's invest in listening training. And if you're interested in, in finding a bit more about, about that, then just email us and we'll give you a list of all the people who can help. We can also help as well with that. But, but yeah, just email us. The contact details are in the show notes. Okay.
Leanne ElliottAnd just a final word, word on that. The thing about, about culture, and I can't remember who said this, but I've definitely heard John Amici quote it. Um, who is a brilliant psychologist. Follow him on LinkedIn, he has so many great insights and tips all the time. Um, but one of the things he says is, um, the culture is defined by the worst behaviors in your business that you will tolerate, and those behaviors will typically come from management. So if you're not investing in your managers, if your managers aren't on board with what you're trying to do it doesn't matter if you have the best wellbeing strategy, it doesn't matter if you have the best recruitment strategy, you get every, every other one of our 12 predictions, you could implement them, get them bang on best practice. If your managers aren't on board, if you don't have the capable managers in your business to see these interventions through, they will fail and they will cost you lots of, lots of money. Lots of, of loss of, of talent within your business and just a load of headaches. Start with managers.
Al ElliottHear, hear. Okay. So should we summarize and go through quickly what the, the 7 we've gone through today?
Leanne ElliottYeah. Did you write them down?
Al ElliottI wrote down mine. Didn't write down yours.
Leanne ElliottIn the order? Sure. Let's try.
Al ElliottThis may not be in the order in which they appeared. So I think you kicked off things.
Leanne ElliottI kicked off with hybrid and flexible working. It's here to stay. It's time we finally got to grips with it, um, and realize that it is something that employees want. We can make it work. And if it's not working for you, look at your, your culture first. There's probably an issue with that, and that's probably why hybrid and flexible working isn't working for you currently.
Al ElliottI came in with transparency, and this was, was our number 8, um, that be a bit more transparent with with profit, and you're gonna see, in, in our opinion, you're gonna see a massive increase in people understanding the reason why they're doing something and actually just becoming adults and having adult-to-adult conversations.
Leanne ElliottMy next one was wellbeing. Um, I think it will continue to be important, and I hope that it will start to be talked about in a much more workplace-driven way. Let's not continue to throw money at interventions that are just putting a plaster over the problem.
Al ElliottDefinitely. Number 10 was around about technology and app monitoring to prevent burnout. Burnout is a— has always been a problem, but it's finally— I think 2023 is the year where we all accept that burnout is a real thing and that we should be doing something about it. And we think that using technology to try and predict burnout will be a really good idea.
Leanne ElliottI then predict that diversity inclusion will continue to be an important topic in in 2023, but with more of a focus on inclusion and creating an environment in which everybody can thrive.
Al ElliottAnd then number 12 was mine, which was the awkward wearables segment of this where I was saying, I think there's an idea, but I don't know how to do it without being creepy. But the— I think the wearables, if it's done right, could be a big thing in 2023.
Leanne ElliottAnd finally, prediction number 13, unlucky for some but not for us or you, listener. I think 2023 will finally be the year the penny drops. Managers are everything.
Al ElliottWell, there we go. So that's our predictions. Interested in yours. I think you put a LinkedIn post earlier today tagging in a few of our friends and colleagues and people we admire, asking them for their opinions. So if you're listening to this and you're tagged in, get on there, tell us what your predictions are. We'd love to, we'd love to hear those. And I think that's kind of it for our predictions, isn't it? Anything else you want to add?
Leanne ElliottNo, no, I think— I'm sure there will be, there'll be many things that will happen in the next 12 months that never even occurred to us as things that we'll, we'll need to, need to, to manage. But you know, we've got this. We're here to help you. We're in this together. Um, yeah, let's see what 2023 brings.
Al ElliottAnd as Leanne said, we are in this together. If you want to chat to us, if you think there's something we can help with, then just go to our website, oblong You'll see there's a big button saying book and just, just book a call with us. 15 minutes. We'll chat you through and we'll see if there's anything we can do to help. If we can't help, then we'll put you in touch with someone who we think can.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So I think my final one, I was actually talking to this, this is somebody about the other day when we're talking about kind of the challenges of 2023 and, and how we'll need to, to face them. And they said to me, wow, no pressure. And I was like, yeah, no, there is pressure. There's a shit ton of pressure on your shoulders, business leader. There is. But, you know, recognising that and taking your responsibility seriously in terms of people and culture already puts you in the top 10% of business leaders out there. And as I said, you're not in it, in it alone. We're here to help. We're here to support you as best we can. But yeah, the responsibility is great, but you've totally got this.
Al ElliottYou do. You do. And just think, the top 10% of leaders Leanne just alluded to, just by implementing just a few of the things we talk about on this podcast, you're automatically gonna be in the top 10% of leaders, and therefore you are going to attract and retain the best talent in 2023. And of course, if you're in a service-based business, which I'm sure that most of you listening are, that's what you need. You need people to output amazing products, services, and outputs. I used output twice then.
Leanne ElliottYes, outputs and outputs.
Al ElliottSo we'll see you next week for the beginning of a series on burnout and also on Britain's Healthiest Workplaces, which is the survey which was— the awards which released, I think, were they awarded in November, December?
Leanne ElliottDecember, yeah. They were just announced before the winter break. Some really interesting organisations in there, very different organisations in there. So yeah, we're going to be gathering the insights, the lessons, sharing them all with you and how you can then turn that into implementable strategies within your business.
Al ElliottAnd we talked to a couple of the winners. We also talked to someone who actually organises it. So you're gonna hear how you can win Britain's Healthiest Workplace.
Leanne ElliottWouldn't that be nice? 2023.
Al Elliott2023. So don't, don't miss an episode. Make sure you subscribe. If you are mindful, then minded to do it, then leave us a rating and a review. 5 stars would be fantastic. Review, as we said in the last time, if you don't like us, then email us privately. If you love us, then tell us publicly on the review.
Leanne ElliottYes, please.
Al ElliottSee you next time. Bye.
Leanne ElliottBye.