Episode 209 · 26 June 2025 · 33:45

How to Lead Without Saying a Word, with award-winning orchestra conductor, Roit Feldenkreis

Featuring Roit Feldenkreis

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Intro: Your Body Is Telling a Story
intro#body-language #nonverbal-communication #presence
Meet Roit: 20 Years Conducting Orchestras
interview#orchestra #conducting #leadership
Bringing Conducting into the Business World
interview#business #leadership #transferable-skills
Why Communication Is More Than Words
interview#communication #nonverbal #leadership
The Biggest Lesson About Presence on the Podium
interview#presence #leadership #social-awareness
When Leaders Get Nonverbal Communication Wrong
interview#meetings #nonverbal #leadership
Reading Your Team's Nonverbal Cues
interview#team-dynamics #nonverbal #leadership
Reading Cues Over Zoom
interview#virtual-meetings #zoom #nonverbal
Two Things Leaders Must Do
interview#leadership #focus #presence
Emotional Regulation and Authenticity
interview#emotional-regulation #authenticity #leadership
Building Trust and Self-Awareness
interview#trust #self-awareness #leadership
What It Feels Like Leading an Orchestra
interview#orchestra #leadership #experience
One Thing to Take Away
interview#takeaway #leadership #advice
Homework: Your Next Virtual Team Meeting
interview#virtual-meetings #homework #authenticity

Show notes

How to Lead Without Saying a Word — with Roit Feldenkreis

Guest: Roit Feldenkreis — international orchestra conductor, public speaker, and founder and CEO of BHZ Group.

What if your body is telling a story you don't know you're telling? Within seconds of meeting someone, they've already decided whether they trust you — before you've said a word.

Roit joins Al and Leanne to translate the unspoken power of presence, body language, and tempo from the conductor's podium into boardroom leadership. She shares how conducting teams — musical or managerial — starts with how you show up, why great leaders guide rather than dictate, and when silence gives others permission to shine.

Top 3 Takeaways

Conducting isn't about control. A great leader doesn't dictate — they guide, listen, and adjust in real time. Clarity, tempo, and space to perform beat rigid oversight every time.
Presence speaks louder than PowerPoint. Your posture, gestures, and eye contact shape trust before a word is said. Up to 93% of communication is nonverbal — and you can't fake it.
Silence can lead. Sometimes it's the pause, not the speech, that gives others permission to shine. And emotional regulation — coming in undistracted — is the foundation of authentic presence.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottWhat if I told you that right now, as you're listening to this, your body is telling a story that you have absolutely no control over?

Leanne ElliottResearch shows that within the first couple of seconds of meeting someone, they've already decided whether they trust you as a leader. It's called thin slicing, and here's the thing— it has almost nothing to do with what you say.

Al ElliottToday we're asking a question that might make you completely rethink everything you know about leadership. Is there really a secret language that the best leaders have been using all along?

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.

Al ElliottToday we are joined by someone who spent 20 years conducting orchestras on almost every single continent. From the Jerusalem Symphony to the London Soloists Orchestra. Now, I know what you're thinking— conducting orchestras, what the heck has that got to do with being a great leader?

Leanne ElliottWell, it turns out quite a lot. Roit Feldenkreis has taken everything she's learned about leading 100 musicians through high-stakes performances where there are literally no second chances, and she's brought those techniques into the boardroom.

Al ElliottAnd what she's discovered is going to genuinely surprise you. You know how we always talk about the importance of clear communication in leadership? Well, it turns out that's actually only half the story.

Leanne ElliottThe research is pretty staggering. Some studies suggest that up to 93% of communication is nonverbal. But here's what's really interesting. Most leaders have absolutely no idea what their body is saying to their team.

Al ElliottSo today we're going to go deep into the world of nonverbal leadership. We're going to find out if it's just corporate fluff word or if there's real science behind it.

Leanne ElliottAnd more importantly, we're going to give you the tools you need to master this hidden language of leadership. Because trust me, once you hear what Roit has to say, you'll never sit in a meeting the same way again.

Al ElliottAre you ready to discover what your body's been saying about you all along? We're going to find out after this very short message from our lovely sponsors.

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Roit FeldenkreisHi, I'm Roit Feldenkreis. I'm an international orchestra conductor, public speaker, and the founder and CEO of BHC Consulting. For the past 20 years, I've conducted orchestras in almost every continent, from the Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra to the London Soloist Orchestra, where every moment is high stakes and alignment is crucial because there aren't any second chances. So I recognized the parallels to executive performance, and I created the Symphonic Leadership Framework to bring these skills to the corporate world. So we do that, and I continue to conduct worldwide as well.

Leanne ElliottAnd how did you begin to bring all of that into the business world?

Roit FeldenkreisWell, it happened like organically. It's really amazing, you know. A few years ago, I started giving keynote speeches in different companies, connecting the leadership world with the orchestral conducting industry. And so, because we, I recognize so many parallels between what we have to do as conductors and what leaders face daily in different industries. And so, so many people reached out later on to ask me different questions and hear my opinion about different struggles that they were having as executives, whether it's owning the room, reading the room when you have to give a presentation to the board, whether it's dealing, having difficult conversations with your reports, maintaining these boundaries because you're not their friend, you have to maintain a certain distance. So many things. Like that.

Al ElliottA symphonic leadership framework. I really do like that phrase. But Leah, I think some of our listeners might be wondering what this actually means in practice.

Leanne ElliottWhich is fair, because when most of us think about leadership communication, we think about what we're going to say, not exactly about how we're going to say it. So, Roit gets really practical here. I was reading just, just the other day about psychologists have actually looked into orchestras and nonverbal leadership, and it's so interesting, and as you say, so transferable to the business world. I'm aware that some of our listeners might not have an exact understanding of this, so could you just, in really simple terms, give us an idea of what nonverbal leadership is?

Roit FeldenkreisThe notion is that what we as leaders have to really master is communication, of course. So when we say communication, most people think, okay, so I will prepare this fantastic presentation. I have AI to do it for me now. It's really easy. I have this, this fantastic, beautiful presentation with all the notes I need, and I, I will just read it and I'll be, everything will be fine. So that is, you know, something that we can begin by doing, but the verbal communication, while it is important, and of course we have to master that as well. We tend to forget that there is a whole different level that people perceive when they just watch us, when they just look at our facial expressions and how we hold our body, how we give space or don't give space, how we are anxious when we speak to them. So what happens is many leaders either either start to be really anxious or either overspeak, overexplain, or even withdraw, do the opposite thing. So, what happens is that teams feel so disconnected from the person that is supposed to be there for them, is supposed to lead them through these corporate challenges, this changing world. So, The trust that is supposed to be there is immediately gone when you say one thing, but your body or your face shows a completely different thing. So that is the beginning of what we do. Of course, we can do so many more things and master the power of nonverbal communication to really lead and motivate and inspire our teams.

Leanne ElliottAnd why do these nonverbal cues matter? So much. And as you say, equally, if not more than what leaders actually say, what's the impact that these nonverbal cues can have?

Roit FeldenkreisWell, the thing is that we are social creatures, and although we have gotten used to doing meetings on Zoom and, you know, reading emails and doing all this, and of course, when you have to work with teams that are globally, you know, they're spread around the world. So we've gotten used to this type of communication, but inherently we are, as I said, social creatures. So we always look and see if, you know, what we are being told is the actual truth. And this is exactly for your podcast, you know, is it something that is real or is it something that is just being said because, you know, it's the quote unquote right thing to say? professionally, but the energy is quite different. And if the energy is quite different, then there is a dissonance. And this is exactly like in the music world where if I come on and I say one thing, but my arms and my face do another thing, then what happens is the music just doesn't come out. So the performance, either with your team in your office or on stage, It reflects that automatically.

Leanne ElliottAnd what is the biggest lesson you've learned about that presence when you are on the podium?

Roit FeldenkreisWell, I think the biggest lesson is, um, that presence starts from within. So, um, you have to take the time to work on your internal conflicts and your internal, you know, thoughts. and vision and everything before you even think about, you know, going up on stage and trying to transmit that to your players. So, this is an internal work as much as it is an external work. You have to really be fantastic at both.

Al ElliottNow, I think we've all been in those meetings where something just feels a bit off, you know, You can't put your finger on it, but you know that that leader isn't connecting with their team.

Leanne ElliottYeah, and I asked Roit for some examples of what happens when leaders don't get this right. We'll hear those after this very short break.

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Al ElliottWelcome back. Let's go and hear some examples of when leaders get nonverbal communication wrong, as well as Does all this work over things like Zoom?

Roit FeldenkreisThere are so many, so many examples. One executive I was working with, he was a very, very technical person. He was fantastic at anything, you know, coding, things like that, you know, a real CTO kind of guy. And he would come to basically address the, you know, everyone in the company, you know, to give this update on how the The development is going and things like that. So, what you would see is that he would be speaking and saying all these really great things usually, you know, we're making progress and everything is fine and everything. And, but, you know, they were just words because he would not look, you know, his employers in the eye and tell them these things. He would just glance at the hall. So bit by bit, it was astounding to see, you know, each team member would look at their friend, you know, the one sitting next to them and say, okay, so weird, you know, like, what is he saying? And why I have so many questions and he's not giving us, you know, the space for answers, for example, or I don't really get what he's saying. And so they wouldn't even speak out loud because They felt that it's not, you know, there is such a, such a place that they just give up. They just give up. So he would do that. He would do these little meetings every single week, and each week it had, you know, it was worse and worse because the team members just knew that something was off.

Leanne ElliottAnd as a leader, can you see that in, in your team if something's off, if they're nonverbal isn't matching maybe the mood that you're trying to set, the vibe you're trying to set, the message you're trying to get across, is that also a signal for leaders to maybe adapt?

Roit FeldenkreisOh, for sure, because I think before things actually happen, before people leave, before people tell you that they are having a hard time, you can see that in their body language before anything else. So what is super important to look for is that if you're speaking to your team and they're not making so much eye contact with you, or they are smiling but their eyes aren't, or they are sitting with their body just like with this type of angle that they are not exactly facing you, they are not, their body isn't open to receive your message. Or if you see them glancing at one another. So all these and a few more, you know, cues are really important to notice because these are the points that you are missing. And if you're missing these, you know, the next step will be much more difficult to repair.

Leanne ElliottAnd is it still possible, do you think, to read these cues over Zoom? As you say, so many meetings now happen, particularly large organizational meetings. How can leaders maybe look out for those signs when doing this virtually?

Roit FeldenkreisWell, of course, it's so much more difficult if you're doing things virtually. It's a whole other ballgame, of course. But what you can do is there are a few things. First of all, that, you know, all cameras should be open always. All cameras should be open. And, you know, I would give time to each member and to ask their opinions specifically, not just ask, you know, like an open question. Does anyone have any questions? Does anyone have any, you know, feedback? But really ask them one by one. So let me hear your opinion. I see that you're quiet. So really bring them out to hear their opinion, their true opinion. So this, of course, doesn't happen in, you know, in an instant. It happens over time and It's more of maintaining this culture of trust and openness that would allow them to actually say what they think. But it's even more important on Zoom because you don't get to see exactly what's going on. And it is a habit that you, like a skill you need to master when you're speaking to a team on Zoom to see their facial expressions on Zoom, which is Quite more difficult, of course.

Leanne ElliottAnd moving it back to the leaders again and what they can do in terms of nonverbal communication and specifically in person when they have those moments, what can a leader do to show more presence in meetings?

Roit FeldenkreisI mean, you have to do 2 things, basically, to come in when you are not distracted, or if you are distracted because things are going on, you can say, I'm so sorry, I'm distracted today because You know, XYZ, whatever. But to really put it there, you know, in the open air and tell them, I'm sorry, I'm not as engaged today. I have so many things going on. I want to get through this meeting and hear your thoughts, but keep in mind that I'm having this insane day of many different tasks that I have to get to. So then immediately they are with you. They are, you know, they understand what you're going through. So, Sharing a bit of that is really, really crucial. And on the other hand, being super respectful of their time, of their talent. So for example, if you have a meeting about a certain subject, you, you know, you come at the hour that you're supposed to come and you finish. You're not just dragging on the meeting because, you know, you're not afraid of, you're not certain of making that decision. So All these things that show them that you respect their time. And the other thing that you can do is, you know, when people are sitting across from you and you see one or two that speak up much more than the others, then really take a minute to say, okay, so, uh, let's say, John, I see that you're not speaking so much today. I see that you're quite quiet. Is there anything that you're concerned about? Is there anything that you want me to know? I would love to hear your opinion. So I think what we're lacking today, and this is something that we have to get a move on because AI is taking so many abilities from the workplace, but what it's not going to take is these soft, or as I call them, power skills, of really understanding one another, of really connecting and motivating The people that you work with.

Leanne ElliottThat emotional regulation is such a key part of it, isn't it? And I think something that really does show through when it's not being regulated, that nonverbal, you know, whether it be like squeezing of the fist. I actually sat in one meeting once where a leader was being challenged, um, and they stretched back and beat their chest with their fists. Um, it was, it was, yeah, quite wow. Um, so I think in, in terms of that, are there certain emotions that you think Have you seen that as well, that comes through in nonverbal communications? What have you seen that has maybe been that tell that a leader isn't regulating their emotions so well?

Roit FeldenkreisI think it happens more often than we think. I think that, you know, most people unfortunately do not have the time or did not take the time beforehand to really understand what ticks them off, you know, and what they can do about it and how it actually You know, how it impacts their leadership, you know, because what happens is people just think, okay, so I know the job. I know I'm a master at, you know, technical skills, financial skills. It doesn't matter what, but basically in order to lead people, especially at a higher level, you have to maintain that level of, you know, emotional intelligence. So there are so many things that I've seen happen. Basically, I think it depends. People get really stressed and then, for example, they start speaking really quickly and, you know, doing so many things and just saying their thoughts without thinking about the consequences. So that leads sometimes, for example, to saying things to your employees or being angry with them in a way that you didn't want to do. So that really breaks the bond or the trust that you have been able to create. So that is one thing, you know, the lashing out is something that people experience that really, really ruins the relationship in the workplace. But so many other things, so many other things, you know, it can be just this little frown and sensitive people, we pick up on that immediately. You know, so no one says anything, and that's even worse sometimes because you just have a disconnection that doesn't go away. You're not sure what will happen next, if they will get angry or upset, or you can even, you know, suggest your ideas or your, you know, your thought processes, your innovations, and the company loses immediately.

Leanne ElliottAnd I suppose as a conductor, that's absolutely vital, isn't it? I'm imagining, you know, as a general conductor, I'm not saying that You've done this, Roit, but I'm guessing, you know, if somebody in the orchestra makes a mistake, that might be frustrating, but if that then starts to impact your hand movements and how quickly they're going or how high they're up and down they're going, that's gonna directly impact actually what the orchestra's gonna give you back, isn't it? So, if you give them frustration, they're in a way gonna give you frustration back. So, like, this isn't the script that we've written.

Roit FeldenkreisYes, exactly. Exactly. You've got it spot on because it's such a reactive, you know, environment. So, whenever I give, I transmit, you know, my vision and something happens, it is so crucial to be respectful of the people that I work with and just tell it like it is, correct on the spot, which is something that I do recommend for the corporate world to really embrace. Correction on the spot saves you time. In ways that no, you know, a weekly meeting would do or an email, nothing like that. So if you see a mistake being made, of course it's different when you are on stage with 100 people and when you have your team spread around the world. Yeah, of course. But try to acknowledge things rapidly because for me, when I'm on stage and something happens and, you know, for example, the violin section makes a mistake, So I just stop immediately, or even sometimes I don't even stop. I just call it out and continue conducting. I tell them, bar 58, much more legato here, or bar 52, you need to, or this was out of tune or not in tune enough, or things like that. And if I see that they nod while playing, and this is what we do constantly because we just don't have time, it's an insane timeframe. Then I know that they have it done. You know, they really understand what I want to do, but if they don't, I say, okay, let's stop for a minute and tell them exactly what's not working. Correct, hear them play, and then continue. So immediately.

Al ElliottI love that phrase, correction on the spot, but here's what I'm thinking, Leanne. If I'm having a pretty bad day and someone makes a mistake, my immediate response probably isn't going to be, Super zen, is it?

Leanne ElliottExactly. And that is the entire point. You really can't fake this stuff. If internally you're a bit of a mess, that's going to show up in how you handle these moments. As a leader, it starts from within you, it starts from within, and managing any conflicts first. Are there any tools or techniques that you'd recommend or have used to help leaders do that? Because it sounds, it sounds quite simple and equally difficult to you know, figure out who I am and what kind of leader I want to be? Where does one start?

Al ElliottWow.

Roit FeldenkreisThat is a huge question, of course. And we don't have, you know, like the entire map for, you know, doing that because it's a life's work. What I suggest, well, there are a few things I suggest, but the first one would be to master your own emotions. To master your own emotions, to know what triggers you, possibly why, but that's not even the point. When you're working with people, they are going to trigger you. They are going to upset you. You are going to get frustrated or even angry at a certain time. So mastering your emotions as a leader is something that is so, so crucial. It's above anything else. And once you have that, and of course you can do that through therapy, through coaching, through different mindset exercises or any types of theory that works for you or practice that works for you. But it's all about if something happens, you have to stay calm. You have to stay collected. Otherwise, The people that you're supposed to lead, they are immediately going to see that you're off. And if you're off, they lose all certainty, all the strategy, or the feeling of being safe in that place. Okay, there's a challenge, but we have this person, we have our leader here that will ultimately get us through this situation.

Leanne ElliottIn terms of, you say these leadership behaviors and And the ways that they can communicate. Can this be trained? Are some people just better at nonverbal than others? Do some people just naturally have better eye contact or hold their posture in a way that, that provides authority, or can people learn to do that better?

Roit FeldenkreisOh, for sure. Some people have it, you know, naturally. Uh, they are better communicators. They are, uh, they have it easier socially sometimes to, to engage with other people, and others might be a bit more, uh, insecure, withdrawn, or even just, you know, uh, introverts. It's fine. It's all fine. I mean, I'm an introvert extrovert myself. I have both sides, so I totally get it. But these are all skills that you can learn for sure. And it's just like in music. I always say in the years that I've been teaching, which I don't do so much right now, but I've taught for a few years, and I always say, you know, you can always improve. So, if someone comes to you with, you know, this type of talent, you can always improve that. And if they come with a, you know, a higher ability, you can improve on that as well. So, that goes for you as a leader, and these are skills that you can master. And it also goes for your team. I mean, this is a point that I have to connect because it also goes for your team. So, you get these team members that are fantastic, but they might You know, be great at one thing and not so great at another. So you have to work with what you've got and continue to improve, you know, with what you have.

Leanne ElliottI'm wondering, do you have any favorites, either like good examples of presence or maybe quirky or what not to do?

Roit FeldenkreisWell, I have quite a few. I think it depends on what you want to achieve. I do really enjoy, for example, Steve Bartlett's quiet presence, you know, when he's interviewing. He has that really, really centered, grounded presence that he knows who he is, what he brings to the world, why he's doing what he's doing. And that is also something to really focus on. Why am I doing what I'm doing? So that can be one example. If I see people that go up on stage and have this really vibrant, vibe to them. That's something that I personally really enjoy. So when I go up on stage and have to speak in front of hundreds, thousands of people, I try to bring that sense to elevate this feeling of bubbly and really that excitement so it transmits to my audience. And this is something that I actually do as a conductor as well because nervousness between, you know, before rehearsal, before a concert, we, one of the key things that I work on and I teach the executives I work with is to convert nervousness into excitement because our brain, you know, registers both in the same area. So when we are excited about something, it's a whole different ballgame. So for each thing that, you know, each mission or each task or each event that I have, I try to think, okay, what type of person, what type of, like, which side of me do I want to bring? Because we all have so many different sides.

Leanne ElliottWhat does it feel like in that moment when you're leading an orchestra and everyone is together?

Roit FeldenkreisOh, this is such an incredible feeling. I think there's nothing like it. Maybe Maybe like we can compare it to athletes when they're, you know, just in those final 5 seconds of their race or things like that. When everything really comes together, it's such an exhilarating feeling that you are able to sync all these amazing talents, all these amazing people to one peak performance moment. So, it is an incredible feeling. So, it's so important to, to see the context of the situation and ultimately what you want to achieve. What type of feeling do you want your people to, to feel, uh, when the conversation, the presentation, the keynote is over?

Leanne ElliottIt all seems to come down to everything you've said, that, as you said, that preparation, that intention, and, and that connection of, of what I say, what I don't say, how I prepare, how I show up. Has to be that thought through if you wanna have this presence and impact as a leader.

Roit FeldenkreisYes, exactly. It's not something you can just pull off. And that goes back to what I said before, that you can't be someone else. You have to dig deep within yourself to see what you want to bring to the world and to that specific situation. So for me as a conductor, each piece or each movement or each even musical phrase, I think about it beforehand. I said, okay, what type of emotion do I want my audience to feel? What type of state do I want them to encounter when they leave the hall? Is it something profound? Is it something that is happiness, exhilaration, anything like that? What do I want them to actually feel? Before anything else. And of course, it's different in music, but when you're leading people and you have to have an outcome for each event or each presentation, you have a specific outcome that you need to focus on. So that will give you the clues to which type of person you want to be there, you know, what side to bring.

Leanne ElliottYou've given us so much to think about. If there's one thing that a listener would take from this conversation, what would you want it to be?

Roit FeldenkreisWow. Just one thing. Let's see. I think that the most important thing that for me right now, I would suggest people to really focus on is to maintain that connection, that human connection that really is something real. It's not an AI crafting an email. It's not something that you've been told to do, but You know, the actual connection that inspires people to, to do good things, to do good things in the world. That would be my, my main takeaway.

Leanne ElliottSo there you have it. Nonverbal leadership isn't just about standing up straight or making eye contact. It's about that fundamental human connection that, as Roit said, inspires people to do good things in the world.

Al ElliottAnd like anything, this all comes back to authenticity. You can't fake this stuff because your body is always going to tell the truth about what's going on inside your head.

Leanne ElliottWhich brings us back to that emotional regulation piece. If you're triggered or stressed or anxious, your team will know it before you even open your mouth. The work really does start from within.

Al ElliottSo here's your homework this week. I want you to try one thing in your next virtual team meeting. Put yourself in gallery view so you can't see your own face and just watch, really watch your team's faces.

Leanne ElliottAnd look for those clues that Roit talked about. Are people really engaged, or are they just politely nodding along? Are their bodies open to your message, or are they subtly turned away?

Al ElliottAnd then ask yourself, what is my body language telling them right now? We'll be back next week with This Week in Work on Tuesday. Until then, remember, your body is always talking. The question is, is it saying what you think it's saying?