Episode 20 · 10 January 2023 · 56:16
What is Burnout?: Recognising the Pandemic You Didn’t See Coming (Part 1 of 2)
What is Burnout?: Recognising the Pandemic You Didn’t See Coming (Part 1 of 2)
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The rising rates of burnout (29.6% → 38.1%)
The clinical definition of burnout, from the World Health Organisation
The difference between burnout and a bad day
Why burnout still carries stigma
Are some people or roles more susceptible to burnout?
Burnout and the 'snowflake' generation
Generational shifts in workplace expectations
Al's maths on Gen Z, millennials, and the future of work
What the research really says about younger workers
Strategies for people at risk
Leanne's own burnout story — the physical symptoms she ignored
Abject denial and the moment everything changed
The business case for taking burnout seriously
Show notes
What Is Burnout? Recognising the Pandemic You Didn't See Coming (Part 1 of 2)
Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) tackle the big one: burnout. With burnout rates climbing from 29.6% in 2020 to 38.1% in 2022, could we be on track to lose more than half of our workforce to absenteeism and turnover? In this first of two special episodes, Al and Leanne are joined by a panel of expert guests — burnout coach Cait Donovan, board-certified clinical psychologist Dr. William Hasek, and burnout researcher and best-selling author Sally Clarke — to unpack what burnout really is, how it differs from a bad day, and why it might be the next global pandemic.
🔥 What We Cover
1. Burnout is on the rise — and it's not slowing down. The State of Workplace Burnout 2023 Report found burnout rates jumped from 29.6% in 2020 to 38.1% in 2022. The panel breaks down what's driving the increase and why we should be treating this like a public health issue, not just an HR problem.
2. What burnout actually is (and isn't). The World Health Organisation's clinical definition covers three key dimensions: emotional exhaustion, depersonalisation (feeling disconnected from your work and the people around you), and reduced personal accomplishment. Leanne walks through each one — and explains why a bad day at work is not burnout.
3. The physical reality of burnout. Rashes. Headaches. Weight loss. Insomnia. Digestive problems. Leanne shares her own experience of burnout — the physical symptoms she was in "abject denial" about, and the weekend conversation with her brother that finally forced her to face it. If you've ever wondered whether stress can make you sick, this segment is for you.
4. Who's most at risk? Are some roles more susceptible than others? Does the "snowflake generation" label hold up to scrutiny? The panel challenges the stereotypes — including research that challenges assumptions about gender differences in burnout rates.
5. The business case for acting now. When a superstar employee burns out, they don't just quit — they leave behind a gap that costs time, money, and team morale. Al and Leanne make the case for why burnout is a leadership issue, not a personal failing.
💡 Key Takeaways
- Burnout is a clinical condition, not a bad day. It involves emotional exhaustion, depersonalisation, and reduced accomplishment — and it has real physical symptoms.
- Burnout is not a sign of weakness. It can happen to anyone, regardless of role, seniority, or generation. The data doesn't support the "snowflake" narrative.
- Your body knows before you do. If you're experiencing unexplained physical symptoms — rashes, insomnia, weight loss, digestive issues — it's worth asking whether stress is the cause.
- Businesses ignore burnout at their peril. The cost of losing a burnt-out superstar to turnover far outweighs the cost of addressing workload and wellbeing proactively.
📚 Resources & Links
Read The State of Burnout 2023 Report: https://infinite-potential.com.au/the-state-of-burnout-2023
Cait Donovan — Burnout Coach & Host of Fried: The Burnout Podcast
- Website: caitdonovan.com/speaking
- Request a conversation: caitdonovan.as.me/inquiry
- Listen to Fried: The Burnout Podcast: friedtheburnoutpodcast.com
- Join the Fried Facebook Community: facebook.com/groups/friedtheburnoutpodcast
- Watch Cait's Speaker Reel: youtube.com/watch?v=NPTLgV7FU-I
- Instagram: @friedtheburnoutpodcast
Dr. William Hasek — Board Certified Clinical Psychologist
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/williamhasek
Sally Clarke — Burnout & Wellbeing Researcher, Expert and Best-Selling Author
- Website: salcla.com
- Twitter/X: @salcla
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sallyclarkeevolve
- Instagram: @salcla
⏭️ Coming Up in Part 2
We're only halfway through. In Part 2, our expert guests return to talk about how burnout will affect our businesses if we don't act now — and what we can do about it. Subscribe so you don't miss it.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottRashes and headaches. I was, um, barely sleeping. I'd lost quite a lot of weight.
Al ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast. We aim to simplify the science of people. My name is Al and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Leanne, I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd welcome. We are talking all about burnout over the next couple of episodes, some chunky episodes coming up. Today we've got a panel on burnout with 3 expert guests. Firstly, we've got Will Hassek, who's a board-certified clinical psychologist. Then we have Kate Donovan, who's a burnout coach and podcaster. And finally, we have Sally Clarke, who's a wellbeing and burnout researcher and expert. Now, Leanne is obviously another expert, and her suggestion is that burnout is the pandemic that we just didn't see coming. We've seen quiet quitting, and there's a fair bit on, on our podcast about quiet quitting. We've seen about the Great Resignation, but the big risk we think in 2023 and 2024 is burnout. So, Leanne, what do we need to know about burnout?
Leanne ElliottThe first thing to know about burnout is that it is on the up. Um, so as you mentioned there, Our wonderful guest Sally Clark. She is one of the researchers behind Infinite Potentials: The State of Workplace Wellbeing 2023, and it had some quite, quite sad reading, to be honest. In terms of the prevalence of burnout, it's going up. It was estimated to be about 29% in 2020, 34% in 2021, and 38% in 2022. One might say that's not a huge surprise given the stress and challenge and uncertainty that we went through with the pandemic. And yeah, things like quiet quitting and the great resignation, I think, are indicators of people trying to find alternatives to burnout. So making big, bold decisions before they burn out. But yeah, the reality is that the continuing stress in our lives, the post-pandemic trauma, we're all still dealing with and the shifts that we're seeing in the workplace, um, in terms of reevaluating how work fits into our lives, I think we're all just freaking exhausted at this point. And I think burnout is significantly gonna— is gonna be a significant problem in 2023 if we don't act now.
Al ElliottNow, I think what's interesting is that people who are slightly older generation, so Generation X and boomers, which I'm 45, so I fall into the Generation X, um, there's been a kind of a thing where you don't Burnout's always been there, but you don't really talk about it. You joke about it. Um, you know, it, it wasn't a thing in the '80s and '90s to go off with stress. You just got on with it. And of course, that's not very healthy at all. Now we've— there's a lot less stigma attached to it. I think it is good that we are starting to talk about it a bit more.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I, I agree. And I, I think that this— the scary thing about burnout is it's not, it's not just a case of, oh, I'm exhausted, I need a break. It has Like serious physical health connotations. I mean, in terms of heart disease, in terms of cancer rates, they're all linked to stress. And anecdotally, you do hear of people who retire and then pass away within a few months.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottIt's similar to, you know, how you've been working really hard, you take time off, and then you get colds and flu, because when we're under stress, our immune system is in overdrive. So when it relaxes, it all comes flooding in. So it's not even just a mental health issue. This is also a physical health issue.
Al ElliottYeah. And I think it's good that we're talking about it. And, and, and what's really, really gonna be really good over the next few episodes is we have 3 or 4 really, really good guests. Um, some of who've experienced it, some of who are sort of, um, clinically trained and therefore can talk about it. Um, should we just go and meet our panel now?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottFirstly, we've got Will Hassek, who's a board-certified clinical psychologist.
Leanne ElliottMy name's William Hassek. I'm a board-certified clinical psychologist. Uh, I'm in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And next we have burnout coach and podcaster Kate Donovan. I am a burnout coach, a keynote speaker, an author, a podcaster. I work with organizations to reduce burnout so they can keep top talent, and I work with individuals to reduce burnout so they can not hate their lives anymore.
Al ElliottAnd finally, we're going to go meet Sally Clarke, who's a wellbeing and burnout researcher and expert with a great story.
Leanne ElliottSo I'm, um, A former finance lawyer. I had a burnout in 2010 that was quite catastrophic, and I was very privileged to be able to quit my role as a lawyer and shift into a really different trajectory. I became a yoga teacher, shifted into meditation retreats, the leading retreats around the world. And then a few years later, I became really curious about the experience that I'd been through. I think I'd felt quite a lot of shame about going through a burnout. In fact, I didn't even like using the word at the time. So I started really delving into some research about what burnout is and particularly what causes it. That led me to writing 2 books about burnout and becoming a burnout researcher and now publishing an annual study into burnout. And I'm now also a co-director of an organization called Human Leaders, and our mission is to really make work a place where humans, business, and society can thrive. So really changing work to be embedded with wellbeing. Brilliant. So some really great guests there to help us understand everything burnout. I guess to give you a bit of context from, from what we're hoping to achieve over the next few episodes is really just help each other understand what is burnout? How do we know if we're burnt out? How do we know if our teams are burnt out? Why does it happen? And, you know, is it something that some people are more susceptible to others? And then, of course, because we're everything people and culture, why should leaders care about burnout? What does it mean for your business? And crucially, what can we do to prevent burnout from happening in the future? Yeah.
Al ElliottSo should we start off with a clinical definition of burnout from Kate?
Leanne ElliottI have a very strong belief that we all have to start with the scientific definition as it's given today. I don't necessarily— I say that with the caveat of I don't necessarily agree with the current definition, but I think we should always start there because then at least we are starting at some sort of consensus. So the World Health Organization adopted the definition from Christina Maslach and researchers of burnout that says burnout is a multi-component occupational phenomenon, which consists of 3 things. The first is physical and emotional exhaustion. The second is cynicism and detachment. And the third is a lack of productivity or a lack of feeling that your work is impactful. And to help us dig a bit deeper, let's hear from our second guest, Will. The research on burnout, uh, kind of shows that burnout has basically 3 components.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo one of those is emotional exhaustion. So when somebody's burnt out, they just feel depleted, exhausted, like they have no energy left to give to their job. And sometimes that can manifest physically too. They just will describe just feeling tired all the time. The second component is sometimes called detachment or depersonalization. So that involves people developing a very cynical attitude toward work, toward the people they work with, and often toward the world more generally. There's just intense pessimism that comes out. And then the last is a diminished sense of personal accomplishment. So they're feeling like they're not doing anything significant, they're not working toward any goals that matter to them, that they're career, and perhaps their life more generally isn't moving in a significant direction anymore.
Al ElliottSo I think what's interesting is asking what the difference is between a bad day and burnout.
Leanne ElliottThat's a good question. I mean, I think, you know, one of the things I would consider most is how pervasive and how kind of long this has been going on, right? That if somebody is having a bad day and it's just sort of, I don't know, colored their perception and they're just having just a negative attitude about everything. I don't know, that's to be expected. Everyone has a day like that. But I think when that's going on for weeks at a time and when you're seeing even the work tasks that they enjoyed in the past, they just no longer have the same energy about them, no longer the same passion.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThat, that's when it starts to become concerning. Will was hit on, on the key there. What's the difference between a bad day and burnout? Burnout is, is a result of a persistence of, of state, um, of prolonged stress. And with that comes lots of physical and psychological symptoms, um, that, that we will be able to observe in ourselves and in the people around us. So let's hear a bit more from Kate and her research findings on how people experience burnout. I did my own research on this. The top symptoms outside of the 3 components that I just mentioned as the definition, the top symptoms that I saw over the people that I surveyed who were all self-proclaimed as burnt out. So let that be clear that the subjects were in charge of their own definition of burnout. The top 3 things were headaches, migraines, and neck and shoulder tension. So a lot going on up here. When we think of stress, what do we think of, right? Headaches, neck tension.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWe're right in line with that. Then we go down the gamut. So some sort of dysregulated digestion in some way, shape, or form. No libido. With women, issues with regularity in their menstrual cycle. One of the things, the way that people describe it usually is an inability to manage their emotions. Like they have an emotional reaction to a situation and it just comes right out of their mouth. Their filter is absolutely gone, which if you look at the physiology of burnout is True. Your prefrontal cortex where you manage your emotions has actually diminished. There's less nerve cells there. There's less neuronal connectivity in that part of your brain when you're burnt out. So you can't manage your emotions the way that you used to. So that's a big one that comes up for people. A lot of people say, I'm afraid of the person that I've turned into. I don't want to be this father. I don't want to be this mother. I don't want to be this friend.
Al ElliottAnd I think that a bad day just suggests something that's different to a good day. So you could have like a grumpy client or an audit or perhaps a real talk from your manager or something like that. So burnout does require context. It's not just an individual having a bad day. It's an environment influencing many bad days in a row. Let's hear some more on this from Sally.
Leanne ElliottI think there's really multiple, multiple things at work here. And one is that we tend to still, because burnout happens to the individual, it happens to people, we tend to still frame it as an individual issue when really, you know, all of my research, both from my books and in the study, the causes of burnout are in fact systemic and cultural, whether that's in an organisation or even just in our broader society, the way we talk and think about work, the beliefs that we have about work that kind of we then internalise. So it's a really pervasive kind of number of causes. I think January is a particularly high-risk time for burnout. I think many of us will go into the, um, the Christmas break thinking we've got time off, I'll reset, I'll get the rest that I need, and then come back in January and actually not feel any better. If you are concerned that you are experiencing burnout, let's just recap those 3 components of burnout again. So physical and emotional exhaustion, detachment and cynicism— so being pessimistic as well— and diminished personal accomplishments. So feeling that Your work is not providing any meaning, purpose, or value within your life. So that's what the definition of burnout is. What are the biggest misconceptions about burnout? I asked Will. Burnout isn't sort of just a response to stress. I think that's something that people often get wrong. It's, oh, you know, work, they're just really overwhelmed and they're getting burnt out. I mean, you know, a person can have a stressful job without Getting burnt out. I think when people start to get burnt out, they've kind of lost hope. It's like they've tried a lot of different things to deal with the work stress. They're starting to feel trapped. They're starting to feel hopeless. They're starting to feel like there's nothing they can really do to change their circumstances. Because one big mistake that I see with burnout Is people focus on the exhaustion piece of it, right? The, you know, and I think that's because if you talk to a burnt-out person, that's the thing that's gonna kind of jump to mind to them first. It's what they're feeling the most. But that's only one, you know, obviously one of the 3 components. I would argue it's not even necessarily the most significant component, right?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUnfortunately, I think, you know, when a lot of businesses are like asking about burnout, they're only asking about the exhaustion component. A really important point there from Will. There are 3 main components of burnout. Exhaustion is just one. Let's hear about another misconception on burnout from Kate. I think the thing that's missing from that definition for me, I know why they're doing it, but I think the thing that's missing from that definition is an acceptance of the fact that it's not just about the workplace. So this is Very specifically in the World Health Organization definition, a workplace phenomenon, an occupational phenomenon. This is not a disease. This is not a syndrome. This is a workplace phenomenon. And it doesn't happen outside of those, that context. And that doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, especially because when I burnt out myself, I was an entrepreneur. So I was creating my own phenomenon, if you know what I mean. I was in charge of everything I could.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottdecide how many hours I worked and what kind of systems were in place and how people were treated and how I treated myself, and I still burnt out. So I think that there's still places for this definition to grow and mature over time. I think, of course, of course it exists outside of work. Burnout is— if we're going to look at the physiology and the psychology of burnout, burnout is the result of long-term chronic stress. So why would that only be related to the workplace? That can be related to caregiving, can be related to just being a parent these days. It can be related to poverty. It can be related to— I mean, we can go into social determinants of health if you want. I mean, it can be related to so many things— disability, chronic illness. Kate's right to raise that as a point. The definition is fairly new in terms of its acceptance by the World Health Organization. It is not yet present within the DSM-5. We've talked about that before. Um, so yeah, there is definitely room for growth here. Um, let's hear from, from Sally. Just knowing that burnout is not a weakness, burnout is not a sign of failure. It happens to some of the most brilliant people. We know it really is something that happens to people who are highly intelligent and who— it's not for lack of trying. Um, it's just not your fault as an individual. Um, and finding help Um, and, and talking to people and engaging the support systems around you is, is really key. And you deserve that healing. You deserve to live, you know, a full and, and vibrant life.
Al ElliottSo I'm curious, Leanne, do you think there are some people or roles that are more susceptible to burnout?
Leanne ElliottAs Sally said, you know, burnout is not a sign of weakness. Burnout isn't something that happens to people who just can't hack the pace. Um, burnout can happen to anyone in any industry at any level. Um, and in fact, even the most recent data, you know, we might have thought that people people managers might experience burnout at a different rate than non-people managers, the latest data shows that isn't the case. And surprisingly as well, those that have caring responsibilities at home experience burnout at the same rate as those who do not, which I thought was initially quite surprising, 'cause I think if you're balancing kind of caring and work, you might be more susceptible to burnout. But then equally, if we unpack that a little bit more, people who have perhaps caring responsibilities, families at home, are probably much more likely to have a strong support network around them, and that in itself is gonna help There are some trends in demographics. The under-45s typically suffer with burnout more frequently, and marginally females. However, other research does dispute this, as Will explains. There is a recent study that was done trying to look at rates of burnout between men and women, and previously it had been— research had suggested that women burnt out more than men.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottMen or more frequently. But this study really challenged that, and it kind of showed men and women burn out at comparable rates, but in different ways, that women tend to show more signs of exhaustion, whereas men tend to show more signs of that detachment, depersonalization, right? So if you're not looking at all the components, you're gonna miss big chunks of your workforce that, that might be kind of burnt out. What is Burnout? Interestingly, a lot of people who are very driven and ambitious are at risk for burnout. The research shows that, you know, people who are really Conscientious, hardworking, want to follow the rules, want to meet expectations, uh, are at risk for burnout. People that are very like agile thinkers, kind of always looking for the next, you know, what am I, where am I going to go next, what's this next big opportunity, are at risk. And finally, there's also an argument for an association between mental health disorders and burnout. Here's Kate. I believe that if there is some sort of vulnerability to a mental illness, burnout can help trigger it or make you more vulnerable. I have seen people go through manic-depressive episodes and be diagnosed with bipolar after going through burnout. Were the symptoms there enough beforehand to be diagnosed? Maybe, maybe not. But sometimes it is a trigger for things that are sort of latent and waiting in the background to show up. And having things like anxiety and depression make it more difficult to manage other things in your life. So yeah, of course, this is a— almost everything with burnout is a closed circle. From a research perspective, the correlation between mental health and burnout is a bit muddy. We don't really have an overall consensus. But what I can tell you is the research does show us there is an association between depression and burnout. And specifically that, that scale of emotional exhaustion as a core component of burnout is positively related to depressive In terms of consequences as well, we found that in people experiencing both burnout and depression, it's associated with cognitive functions such as increased recall of negative words and also a decreased recall of positive words. Similarly with anxiety, we found a relationship between burnout and both state and trait-based anxiety. So state being more environmental, trait being more innate. And, you know, within the workplace, people who have reported higher levels of anxiety have also reported higher levels of burnout. But as I said, there isn't a consensus. This may well be just down to lack of interest in the topic. As I mentioned before, the World Health Organization only agreed a definition of burnout in 2019. So the research is early days in terms of really understanding burnout as a standalone definition. And these early systematic reviews are just coming in. So I think it is fair to say there is an association. The exact relationship of that, we're still trying to figure out. There is also an argument that there might be a biological basis for people experiencing burnout more than others or being more susceptible to it. And there does seem to be biomarkers that are linked to stress-related mental disorders such as depression, burnout, and chronic stress. There may be, there may be a, um, a common biological basis there as well, but again, research is new. Other research has also shown us that some professions are impacted, particularly high-stress roles such as teachers or health workers. Again, though, that might just be the bias in the research because the research in burnout has tended to focus on those professional groups. And then, of course, we can't possibly do a podcast without talking about the Gen X, Gen Zeds, can we? So recent data does suggest that younger people are more susceptible to burnout, and this has been a shift in the last. few years, which is really interesting. As you know, our expert guest Sally is one of the researchers behind Infinite Potential's State of Workplace Burnout 2023. So let's hear more on that. And I think the first was that we saw an enormous spike this year in the rate of burnout among the 18 to 24-year-old demographic. So in the last couple of years, the highest rates of burnout were sort of around middle management. And this year, we saw a more than 20 percentile jump in that 18 to 24-year age demographic. And it's also so it's entry-level positions. That's where we're seeing the highest rate of burnout. And I found that really interesting because I think it really speaks to a lot of the stresses that young people have been under through the pandemic. And I think to some extent also the fact that, you know, quite a lot of these people who are responding to the survey were, you know, they may have commenced their careers straight out of college or university into a remote work environment. So they— this is a very stressful time to be starting our careers. And I think for those of us who are a bit older, who maybe already had some, you know, relationships built at work and sort of understood the ways of working, shifting to a working from home situation was actually, for a lot of us, quite a— you know, it had some benefits, whether it was autonomy, agency, flexibility. these kind of things. But I think for the younger generation, the expectations that may— they may have had about how their careers would look were really decimated by the nature of how they, they started their careers because of the pandemic. I'm sure there are other factors involved, and I've been really interested to have some conversations with, with younger people to try and understand those, and we'll put those together in an article hopefully soon. But that was certainly a really standout finding for me.
Al ElliottI think we have to remember that if someone's entered the workforce 5 years ago. So let's say, for argument's sake, they are 21 and they started at 16, and the pandemic was like 2, 2 of those years, even 2 and a half. We're talking almost like 50% of their work experience or experience at work has been during a pandemic, a lot of that at home. So I think what is interesting is that we hear this like snowflake term bandied around. So, and I think it seems to be that people are thinking that, oh, you know, the younger people, they just can't hack the pace of hustle culture. So is this the proof that the snowflake generation are unable to hack it, or is it just one of the reasons why the expectations of employees are shifting? Let's see what our experts think. Here's Kate.
Leanne ElliottIt's okay for people to think that. They're wrong, but it's okay for people to think that. I'm not really here to convince everyone. There is over 40 years of research on this. There's not really much to discuss, so I don't usually bother. I don't believe that I'm in the— any of my professions require me to do that. If people wanna believe that this is nonsense, then they believe it's nonsense until they are leadership in a company that just lost 50% of their employees and all of their top performers, then they might talk about it. The thing is, the world is changing. The demands of the later millennials— I'm the earliest millennial years, right? The demands of the later millennials and Gen Z are than the demands of the early millennials and before us. People want different lives now. And when they can't get them, when they're not getting them, they are not able to just push through anymore. It's time to just pay attention and make some change.
Al ElliottWe also asked Will about these generational shifts in the workplace.
Leanne ElliottI think there's a change happening in how we think about work now. I think expectations are changing as millennials and Gen Z Yeah. Enter the workforce. There's a lot of research showing that younger generations have different expectations about what they want out of work and that they're not going to tolerate abusive or controlling work environments. It's an interesting question about why that shift has happened. I mean, and I'm not really sure anyone has a clear answer at this point, but it's certainly Yeah. Is happening. And so I think one thing that might be going on with a leader like that is they're just maybe not recognising the depth of the kind of cultural change that's happening around them. I actually think you and Leanne talked about a podcast on quiet quitting I listened to, and I think you mentioned this and I identified with it for sure. Both my parents, Very successful in their careers, very hardworking. But I mean, they really burnt the candle at both ends. It took a toll on them. And thank goodness they recently retired. But I look back and saw just years and years of them working so hard and really questioning, why am I doing this?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAm I really doing anything meaningful in my job? And, you know, I think it took a toll on them. And I mean, you know, I mean, not only do I feel for them, but I don't think anybody should have to feel that way at work. I've experienced periods of high stress throughout my career, and if I'm being honest, one period of burnout. I remember on the lead-up to that being told things like, you need to toughen up, you need to be more resilient, you need a thicker skin. Um, and you know what, as a leader, you might be thinking about the same about some of the people in, in your team. You might have even said some of the same things. This approach is flawed, and here's Sally to explain why. It's a really great point, and it one— it's one that really sort of makes me a little bit incensed because I really find it quite cruel to some extent that there is this constant focus on the individual should be more resilient. We are offering the individual more meditation apps and yoga classes, and I say this as a qualified yoga and meditation teacher: that will not prevent burnout. I like to use the metaphor of if we have, for example, a toxic lake and this the fish are all getting sick. We don't look at each individual fish and try to make it better and and and heal it. We look at the water quality, and we detoxify the water, and we improve the quality of the lake so that the fish become healthy. And I think that's how we need to frame. burnout as well. That if you have a healthy, high-functioning individual in a toxic environment, you know, eventually that chronic workplace stress will wear them down. And it doesn't matter how many things they put into place necessarily when they're in that environment. It's just, it really is often just a matter of time before burnout occurs. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot The audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of music. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Leanne ElliottDefinitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Leanne ElliottKeep that in. I worry, Al, sometimes I sound like a broken record, but I'm gonna say it again. You might not like the generational shifts that are happening within the workplace right now, but they're happening. So get on board, get with it, and, and start thinking about how you can do things differently, how you can do things better, because They are coming. Al, you told me this the other day and it blew my mind.
Al ElliottSo I did a little bit of maths. So I looked at a few websites for definitions of Gen Z, Gen X, boomers, all that kind of thing. And I've discovered there's a key date here. Now that's January 1st, 2024. And that's when millennials and Gen Z will finally make up the majority of the workforce. Because baby boomers are already retiring and Gen X, will start the mass early retirement. So basically, it means that we're now gonna have more people who are working for us who are Gen Z and millennials than are not. So of course, we need to change the way we look at it. But the other thing is we need to think about this is that the youngest Gen X, the Gen X of the generation, which is 1977 backwards for about 15 years, I think, they'll be turning 50 in 2026.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Al ElliottSo that means that then almost, well, over 2/3 of employees between 18 and 65 will be either millennials or Gen Z. So we can't win. The boomers, by, by 2026, the boomers, baby boomers have gone. They've all retired. Um, us, me, the Gen X, we're, we're turning 50. So we've only really got sort of 10 or 15 years worth of work left in us. Um, so if you particularly feel like a digital creative agency, Yeah. Where the average, the average age is about 36, then just in 8 years, which is what, 2031? It'll be exclusively Gen Z. So I don't think we can say, oh well, poor snowflakes, because they're the Zoomers, which is what the Gen Z like to refer to. I think the Zoomers and the millennials, they, they just don't know what work is. Because the fact is that they are going to be your entire workforce. So we need to do something about this. We We need to change the way that we think.
Leanne ElliottHear, hear. That was brilliant. And quite some, some sobering thoughts there as well, aren't there? Yeah, I think it's also really important if we're talking about shifts, we need to talk about burnout as well as part of the hybrid conversation. And this was another really important finding in Sally's recent research. Leaders haven't quite figured out how to make flexibility work well. But as we've said, there is a massive opportunity for leaders to reimagine how and where we work, um, and what that balance looks like. Hybrid work and flexibility are things that people are craving and still want. So how do we manage that, and how do we bring hybrid into the burnout conversation? Let's hear from Sally. Yes, so it was, um, certainly we also asked some questions about, um, how it sort where people are working. And our finding was that it was actually people who were working 80% or more from home who show the highest rate of burnout. The lowest rate of burnout was those who were in a hybrid work situation where they're working 2 to 3 days a week from the office. Now, this was— I think, as I'm an introvert, and I was a little rattled, I think, by these findings because I sort of thought, Oh, don't take, don't take working from home away from me. I really enjoy it. But I think what we need to— and, you know, it's not— it's correlation, not causation. So we're certainly not saying that working from home causes burnout, nor that being in the office does. But I think what those findings showed to me was that the hybrid work conversation is one that we really need to have very mindfully, and we really need to involve people sort of in this conversation. And I think, you know, again, as I said, a lot of us have found this sense of autonomy, agency, yoga pants, being able to, you know, throw some washing on during the day, maybe pop to the shops. There's some flexibility in the way that we work that was opened up as a result of the pandemic. And at the same time, we also know that we're human. You know, we really need interpersonal connection to feel a sense of engagement and to feel, you know, trust and respect in the workplace is really key. And I really see that as being, you know, to the extent that is possible, When that can happen in person, that's really impactful. So I think if leaders can navigate this shift to a hybrid work environment where they can meet the needs of the team and also the individuals, which will evolve, we're not sort of stagnant beings. These things will shift as the phases of life shift. But being able to hold that flexibility and meet the needs of the team and the individuals Well, and I think that's— it's quite a complex, you know, issue. And I understand that for some leaders, it may be very tempting to just say, no, that's it, everyone has to be back in the office.
Al ElliottNow, you know who you are. Don't be taking away from these— from this podcast, oh, well, I'll just call everyone back in the office because I want to avoid burnout. That's not what Sally's saying there, is it, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottIt's not. What her research found and what other research I've seen recently from the UK has found is that from what we know so far, and bear in mind these are early days of post-COVID hybrid working, but what we found so far is that hybrid working, so working 2 to 3 days from the office, 2 to 3 days at home, is correlated with higher levels of well-being. But as I said, is this a post-pandemic haze, or can hybrid working really facilitate higher levels of well-being into the future? I asked Sally. I think it's, you know, it is— I think there's a lot to be said for shifting to a way of working that is perhaps reducing our working hours. You know, the 4-day work week, there's a lot of focus on that at the moment. And I think, you know, we can't just arbitrarily chop a day off the week and expect things to get better. But when we actually use that as a means of reframing and redesigning how we work, so really looking at those systems of work, Are they inefficient? Are, you know, how are we communicating? How are our meetings being driven? Are we able to do what we need to do in, in the space of time that we're allocated? And if not, what's inhibiting that? What's stopping us from getting our work done? And so I think it's, there's certainly, I think, a, a really beautiful opportunity that the, um, this, this shift is now offering us, um, to really And again, I think it's— there's this natural tendency for humans to kind of want to go back to what was, to revert to how things were. But for those, again, who have the courage and the curiosity to maybe hold space, to ask some deeper questions, I think we can really shift to a way of working that enables humans to thrive and actually also improves the bottom line for business as well. So it really is something that I think can multifaceted impact. And on that, I think also, you know, we, we talk a lot about the impact of burnout on businesses and on organisations. I think at a societal level, if we can really improve our working lives and reduce those sources of chronic workplace stress so that burnout isn't occurring, you know, I think of the friendships that will be improved, the family relationships that will be improved because someone isn't in burnout.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd even down to us as citizens, you know, in the— on the planet, how we can be more involved and engaged, uh, when we're not burnt out. I think there's a huge amount of impact that those kind of shifts and conversations can have. I—
Al Elliottthat's, that's a great point. And I think also we have to remember that there is a big risk of burnout for people who, who are in the wrong role or potentially the wrong workplace, and they don't— and they can't move because financial concerns, because maybe it's the only place that they can actually work at the level in which they want to work. So these are people who are very much at risk of burnout. So if you are listening and you're one of those people, then Will has some great advice to help you manage your emotions and navigate your workplace.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so I think for a person like that, I'd recommend a couple of different strategies. I mean, one would be finding your allies in, in The workforce. I mean, even if they're sort of working against the tide or swimming against the tide, I guarantee there's going to be probably other people there that are feeling that. And so finding ways they can kind of build their support network within the organization is going to be really important. I think also really making sure that they are Prioritising work in the right way. So I know we just talked about some of the organisational risk factors, but burnout isn't just an organisational issue. I mean, it's an individual issue too. Different people have different levels of susceptibility to burnout. I think it's really important when somebody who's like that is in an environment where Mm-hmm. Their wellbeing isn't going to be attended to by the organization, that they're doing everything on their end to make sure that they are setting boundaries around their work time, around when they can be contacted after work. I mean, sometimes I have to work with people on some assertiveness talking to their manager. I'm not answering emails after whatever hour. I've got to be with my family. Making sure that they're involving themselves in meaningful activities and relationships outside of work. And I think also positioning themselves long-term to probably leave that workforce if it's not going to change. So maybe they can't leave now, but maybe thinking about, okay, what are those longer-term goals you can work towards? You know, can, you know, whatever, 3, 4, 5 years from now jump to an organization that is a better fit for you. So just to very briefly recap the question, are some people or roles more susceptible to burnout than others? Headline, no. And this is why we are saying burnout is a pandemic you didn't see coming. Burnout transcends profession, level, gender, age, Geography. Um, it really does, does not discriminate. Um, burnout is a result of prolonged stress, and we can all as humans experience that. It's not about the snowflake generation. It's just not. And I think that word we're now going to ban from the podcast in 2023.
Al ElliottYeah, I'm slightly concerned because I think I might have used it in an interview, um, which we just did yesterday. But yes, I'll bleep So yeah, I think what we're really talking about here is that this has been going on for a while, but it's the first time that thanks to Zoomers and Millennials, we're actually talking about it and we're open talking about it. We don't feel like we have to cover it up like perhaps the previous generation did. You know, I know people of the Boomer age who clearly were burnt out, but they just kept going and kept going and then other things Happened in their lives that, uh, that sort of was the, the fallout from that. So I'm curious here because I want to know, how, how would you know you're burnt out? You mentioned before, Leanne, that you looked back, you went, I think I was burnt out back in that period. But at the time, I'm not sure, because I think it was when we were together. I'm not sure that you knew you were. So I want to know, how do you know if you're burnt out?
Leanne ElliottI think you're right. It's so hard when you're in it to recognise you're burning out. I think I thought I might be burning out, and looking back and understanding what burnout actually is more, I was definitely burnt out. And less the exhaustion, the cynicism, the pessimism, the detachment, definitely experienced that. Burnout does have a definition, and it does have some agreed components. But as always, this isn't about statistics, this is about individuals and human stories. Our guests were generous enough to share their own experiences. of stress and in some cases burnout. So let's hear from Will first. One of my first jobs out of, out of school after I got my PhD, and I love being a psychologist, you know, it's a very enjoyable job, you know, so I was excited and I got this job. It paid really well. So, you know, great, I'm doing this thing I went to school for. I'm making good money. You know, I was excited to start.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBar none, the worst job I have ever had in my entire life. I mean, and I only stayed there for 3 months before I was like, I can't take this anymore. And the impact it had on me was just like, I mean, I was not only stressed out, but physically, I mean, I remember I would wake up in the middle of the night when I was working there with this just searing pain in my stomach, like somebody had just Yeah. Just stabbed me in the stomach. And I had never felt anything like that before in my life. And thank goodness I had a good support system, colleagues, my wife, friends, and were really telling me, you got to get out of there. And the stomach pain went away, the stress went away. I mean, it really I don't think, though, I realized just how much of a toll it was taking on me until I left. And I mean, I can't imagine if I had stayed there for years. I mean, it probably would've had much more permanent, longstanding effects on me. And sadly, I see that sometimes in the people I work with, that they've been in a stressful job for so long, it's probably had a permanent irreversible effect on their health at some level. And work should not hurt. I mean, I know it's a job. There's a reason they pay you to do it. It's not going to be fun all the time, and it's not going to be engaging all the time, but it should not be something that is a source of profound pain and suffering like that. I love what Will shared, his experience. And I think just a couple of things I'd like to just to pick up on. You know, Will is a psychologist. I'm a psychologist. We're not saying creating these lovely, harmonious environments where, where everyone can do what they want, whenever they want. And that's not how it works. But work shouldn't hurt. And I think you suggested that Will should get that on a t-shirt.
Al ElliottI think I did. I think I did. Yeah, he's so honest about things. And, um, I say we've got someone next week as well who's equally honest. Uh, so, uh, so I, I, you know, I just love hearing these, these human stories because I'm probably the same as most listeners. We're not scientists where you can understand all these complex ideas. We just, we just want to hear the story and go, okay, yeah, I resonate with that, or I know someone who—
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I don't think you can underestimate the, the physical symptoms of stress. You know, Will mentioned a few there. Um, I've suffered with skin problems, with rashes. with vertigo, so getting dizzy when I stand up, with literally feeling a pressure on my shoulders. And Kate delves into this a little bit more as she shares her personal experience with burnout. I burnt out horribly and stayed in a burnout cycle for 6 or 7 years. I didn't know what burnout was, so I couldn't fix it. I couldn't handle it because I didn't know what was going on. I was angry and resentful all the time. Every time anyone asked me even to go to lunch, like my friends— I was living in Prague at the time, and in Warsaw, this started living in Warsaw and continued through My time in Prague, which was a lovely place to live, and I had a beautiful life, and I was very lucky, and all these beautiful things. My friends would write and say, hey, let's have lunch this week. And my immediate response would be like, don't they know how busy I am? I was working 25 hours a week. It just— it— none of it made sense. I, at the very worst part, physically, from the tram to my apartment, there was a 4-minute walk and it was up a hill. And I had a dog. Well, we have a dog. And so I would get home from work. I would be leaving work at 1 o'clock. So I worked, you know, 8 to 1:30 or 8 to 2 on Mondays and Wednesdays. It's not that many hours. I would leave at 2 o'clock and be done for the day. Should be a beautiful life, right? I'd get on the tram, I'd get back to my stop, I'd look up the hill and I would think like, I don't know how I'm going to make it. Up this hill. And then once I get there, I don't know how I'm going to walk the dog. I, I don't know if I can do it. And I would start my journey up the hill and I would stop on someone's stoop halfway up because I literally physically could not get there. This is coming from someone who's been an athlete her whole life. I was a competitive gymnast for 10 years. I was captain of my field hockey team. I ran track. I cross-country skied 120 kilometers over a week in Finland. Like, I couldn't do it. I couldn't function. I couldn't. And it just crushed me because I couldn't figure out what was going on. My blood work was fine. Everything was working. But I couldn't walk 4 minutes up a hill. So, as you heard there, Kate was really struggling to get a handle on her health. It wasn't until she found an article that things all started to make sense. I read that article and I thought, okay, at least now I have something to work with. There are plenty of reasons why my stress management system would be off-kilter. I grew up in an addictive household. I mean, there's reasons for it. So I understood as soon as I saw it, I got it. I was like, okay, I get this. I can see what's happening here. And as a typical rule, because I grew up in very close to the poverty line and didn't have a lot of access to things, I do everything myself. I'm a big do-it-yourselfer.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBecause it's cost effective for the most part. At this point was the first time in my life where I realized that I was not going to be able to DIY this. I just wasn't going to be able to do it because if I could have done it, I would have done it already. Not with all of my knowledge and with all of my experience with patients and with as much help as I had given other people, this I was not going to be able to do on my own. So I hired a therapist first. I went through my first few weeks of therapy and then I hired a coach. Those are They're very different processes and I needed them both. Once I was through a lot of those things and I started to get some energy back, I hired a functional medicine practitioner. I overhauled my diet. I took a bunch of supplements and slowly waded my way out. It took about a year, 15 months to get myself back.
Al ElliottI mean, it's just, if you, if you, if you ever doubted the physical Implications or physical health implications of burnout, then just listen to that. Like, this, you know, the lady's a freaking athlete. You know, it's, it's just kind of heartbreaking. I feel you could, you could feel that you could hear the emotion as she really relived it in, in the way that she spoke. So we also asked Sally about her experience of burnout.
Leanne ElliottBut when I look back, it's, I was in abject denial that I was I was having physical symptoms, so I was having quite a lot of rashes and headaches. I was barely sleeping. I'd lost quite a lot of weight. Anyone who sort of showed any concern to me, I'd just tell them that they didn't understand corporate law and basically told them to get lost. And it was actually— I was flying to— I was living in Amsterdam and I was flying to the city of Nantes in France to visit my brother because he was living there. And I'd worked till really late, jumped into a taxi, sped to the airport. I don't remember anything about the flight. I just remember arriving at the arrivals hall in Nantes and laying eyes on my brother and collapsing to the floor. And I started crying and I couldn't stop. And it took my body giving way underneath me for me to acknowledge that there was something wrong.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottAnd over that weekend with my brother, I talked, you know, I said, I'm miserable and I've been miserable for a while. We talked about what my options were. And when I went back to Amsterdam, I spoke to the partner that I was working for and started that journey of acknowledging what I was going through. And I was very privileged to be in a position where I could leave that job. And so I quit and left probably about 5 months after that point. I was also very lucky to be in the Netherlands where There's healthcare legislation and infrastructure around burnout that exists there. But it was, you know, I think full recovery took probably a couple of years after that for me to really get to a place where it's very difficult to compare because I really felt like quite a new version of myself, a much more authentic and happier version of myself. But it's, you know, I see it a lot with the clients that I work with in my coaching. and people that I speak to, that it is something where we really want to just be back. We want to be full of energy and using our incredible capacities to the best that we can. And it can be a very frustrating and slow process of healing, which is probably one of the reasons that my mission is to, you know, to really embed wellbeing at work so that the word burnout becomes redundant. What I find really interesting about all of our experts and their experiences of burnout is the acknowledgement that this took many years to go through a full recovery, and that it has a very real and potential impact on your long-term health. Burnout isn't stress. Burnout isn't a bad day. Burnout isn't not being able to hack hustle culture. Burnout is, is a significant issue that we need to deal with within our organisations. It's as simple as that. I, I don't think we could have asked any more of our experts to put it so beautifully why burnout is important. And as business leaders, as business owners, why we have a responsibility to prevent people from hitting rock bottom.
Al ElliottYeah. And, I mean, let's look at it from a business case point of view. You've got someone who's a superstar. They're doing really well, and they're putting all the hours in.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd then they just put— keep to keep putting more and more hours in, and then they burn out, and then they quit. And you're like, well, shit, what am I gonna do? Because not only have I lost my best person, therefore a probably business function is down, maybe sales, maybe creative, whatever. But you also then have to spend all the money to find someone else. And the likelihood of finding someone else who's as good as that previous person is probably slim. And then, you know, so the whole thing is, it's, it's not fluff. There is a business case for this because You, if you had a piece of equipment and you were running it 24/7, and then it, and then it broke after 6 weeks, you'd look back and go, shit, I wish I hadn't done that. I should have just, you know, given it a bit of a break. I would have, should have turned it off for, for overnight or something. The, you know, it's, there is a business case for this.
Leanne ElliottI was gonna say it as well. And equally, if you are a business leader, burnout is an issue you need to take seriously for yourself. You know, we, we've all been there. We've all, we've all done it ourselves. We've all seen other other people push themselves to the limits. You are not immune. Look at our guests here. We had a professional athlete and some expertise in healthcare. We had a corporate lawyer operating at the highest possible level of her field. We had a board-certified clinical psychologist. Nobody is immune. You are not immune. And if you are pushing yourself, and if any of these experiences, these emotions, these symptoms resonate with you, Please, please, please acknowledge that and recognise that because now is the time to act before you go past the point of no return.
Al ElliottOkay. I mean, we're halfway through this. This is— we're gonna do a second part of this. There's a lot of stuff to get through. What's coming up next in the next episode or the next part of this, part 2, is how do I know if my team is burnt out? We're gonna look into that. We're gonna ask why does burnout happen? We're gonna say, what does burnout actually mean for my business? Now we've talked a little bit more about that, the actual business case, but we're gonna go into more of that and ask our experts about that. Then we're gonna talk about how we can prevent burnout. And finally, we're gonna talk about the resources that, that you can use to help prevent burnout, both in yourself, your leadership team, or your entire business. So I'm a bit exhausted after that, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottA bit burnt out.
Al ElliottI didn't wanna make that joke because I felt like it might be, I might be—
Leanne ElliottBecause we know that isn't burnout. We know now. We've educated ourselves and our listeners. But yes, I think it's time for a break, time to, to rest, recharge, and we will be back with part 2 of our episode on Burnout: The Pandemic You Didn't See Coming.
Al ElliottSee you soon. And by the way, if you haven't subscribed yet, then please do. If you subscribe, you'll make sure that every episode comes directly to your app. And also, it really helps us to grow the show and get more and more people to listen to it because the more people subscribe, the more likely it is that Apple or whatever, Google, are gonna be able to show this to other people. So if you enjoyed this episode and you're not already subscribed, click that subscribe button. See you next time.
Leanne ElliottBye.