Episode 219 · 31 July 2025 · 41:23
What is holiday anxiety - and why can’t we switch off? With clinical psychologist, Dr Elaine Smith
Featuring Elaine Smith
What is holiday anxiety - and why can’t we switch off? With clinical psychologist, Dr Elaine Smith
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The employee told to check emails daily
interview#email-checking#employee-boss#workplace-expectations
Why we're 'always on' — the psychology of email checking
Why can't we detach from work?
Better habits to replace checking behaviour
interview#habits#detachment#work-anxiety
Practising not checking before your holiday
Handovers and building confidence to switch off
Sticking to boundaries as a leader
Different types of rest — and why rest is a new behaviour
interview#rest#boundaries#self-care
Physical, emotional, and spiritual rest
interview#rest-types#physical-rest#emotional-rest#spiritual-rest
Listener story — the toxic holiday culture
What if I get fired for setting a boundary?
When boundary-setting becomes survival
The practical plan for a smooth return to work
interview#return-to-work#planning#boundaries
The one thing to remember
interview#tips#boundaries#work-life-balance
Outro — where to find Dr. Elaine
Show notes
Why You Can't Switch Off on Holiday — and What to Do About It — with Dr. Elaine Smith
Guest: Dr. Elaine Smith — clinical psychologist specialising in mental health at work, founder of Creating Compassionate Workplaces, and creator of the Holiday Headspace masterclass.
Your brain is literally wired to check emails on holiday. Here's the science — and the fix.
Dr. Elaine Smith joins Al and Leanne to unpack holiday anxiety: why we can't switch off, why even one reply to a work email on leave reinforces the cycle, and how to set boundaries that actually hold. She breaks down the psychology of "email addiction," the toxic holiday cultures that demand daily check-ins, and a practical plan for protecting your last two days off from return-to-work dread.
Top 3 Takeaways
Your brain is primed to check — but you can rewire the habit. We're conditioned to reach for our phones because checking gives a tiny hit of relief. The fix? Practise not checking before you go on holiday, so the behaviour is already broken before you leave.
Even one reply reinforces the cycle. If you respond to just one email in ten while on leave, you're teaching your colleagues (and your brain) that you're contactable. Clarity is kindness — tell people exactly what you will and won't do.
Rest isn't just lying down. There are different types of rest — physical, emotional, even spiritual. If you're someone who recharges by cooking or moving, a beach holiday might not actually rest you. Know what your rest looks like.
More From Dr. Elaine Smith
- Website: drelainesmith.com
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dr-elaine-smith-creating-compassionate-workplaces
- Holiday Headspace masterclass: drelainesmith.com/beat-annual-leave-anxiety — use code truthlieswork20 for 20% off (normally £39)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Leanne ElliottI recently was told about an employee who was asked by their boss to check emails every single day whilst they were on annual leave. And the justification, apparently it wasn't fair to expect their colleague to decide what was urgent. So they did. Every day of their 2-week holiday, they checked their inbox. And here's where it gets even worse. One day they didn't check for 24 hours. Only 24 hours, and a colleague sent multiple angry emails about not getting a reply, even though they acknowledged that that person was on holiday. So if you're listening to this and thinking, that sounds familiar, or at least it's not as bad as my workplace, then trust me, this episode is very much for you.
Elaine SmithI am a clinical psychologist, so that is my training, and now I specialize in mental health at work. And I came to that work really because of a lot of experiences in my own clinic, people coming to me with stories about work. Work is a huge anchor in our life, and it can really support us or it can really drain us.
Al ElliottThat was Dr. Elaine Smith. Dr. Elaine has worked with hundreds of people trapped in exactly these toxic work cultures, but she's also discovered something very powerful. The problem isn't just bad bosses or unrealistic expectations. It's that we've accidentally trained our own brains to to be addicted to checking, and she knows exactly how to break that addiction. Dr. Elaine has cracked the code on how to actually disconnect properly, not just the surface-level leave your laptop at home advice, but the deep psychological shifts that let you genuinely rest and come back stronger. And with your summer holidays just around the corner, her timing could not be more perfect, because the science is really clear: proper rest doesn't just make you feel better, it makes you dramatically more productive when you do return to work.
Elaine SmithHello, Truth, Lies and Work listeners.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I am a business owner.
Leanne ElliottToday we're going to discover why your brain is literally wired to check emails on holiday. I know how annoying. We're also going to look at the exact words to use in your out-of-office message, the ones that actually work, and Dr. Elaine's strategy for dealing with colleagues who expect you to be available 24/7.
Al ElliottOh, and we're also going to hear from a listener whose workplace culture was so toxic around holidays, it's going to make you question everything about modern work expectations. So we're going to join Dr. Elaine after this very short break. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Elaine SmithI am a clinical psychologist, so that is my training. And now I specialize in mental health at work, and I'm particularly interested in leadership and the impact that leaders can have on mental health, both their own but also of their team, and the little changes they can make to make a massive impact. I think work is a huge anchor in our life, and it can really support us or it can really drain us.
Leanne ElliottIt's such a big aspect of our lives, isn't it? I mean, it's— I mean, I guess now is the time of year where we don't want it to be as big an aspect of our lives. We're looking to take those holidays, looking to that rest and recovery time. But with that does come a bit of anxiety from people around that, how to do that effectively or how to manage their expectations of their workplace and their family and what that looks like. If we just start at the beginning, Because even as a self-employed person, I'm my own boss, I can take time off when I want to, but I still find it really hard to switch off. Why is that?
Elaine SmithWell, I think because we're always on, you know. I think obviously technology now, as well as I'm an advocate for it, I think there's lots of great things about it. It definitely helps me to do my job for sure. I'm definitely not anti-technology, but at the same time, it means, I mean, we can book a holiday, we can order our shopping, we can do our work all from this machine in our hands. So no wonder it's hard to switch off, not only for work, but also just in life, to switch off from friends, to switch off from media. And so yeah, we're always on. And it's, you know, there's some statistics, I don't know exactly, but how many notifications, for example, we get in a day, how that's training us really. So I think it's no wonder we find it really hard to switch off. I often say to people, it's not like the olden days where You got in from work and you didn't hear anything about work until the next day. And I must say, when I was thinking about doing this today, thinking I do appreciate growing up in that age where I can remember that, even though I was quite young at the time, um, I have that as a, as a sort of baseline. Whereas people growing up, the younger generation today, don't have that. They, they, they've not lived through a time where actually you could properly switch off.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Elaine SmithUm, so yeah, I think that's really important.
Leanne ElliottI guess my question is, we want to be engaged in our work. If we find meaningful, fulfilling work, that's really good for our psychology, really good for our wellbeing, our mental health. But where does that engagement in work tip into unhealthy? Where's the boundary between being attached to our work in a healthy way and in an unhealthy way?
Elaine SmithI like this question. I think it's about, obviously we want to fulfil our role and that But if we even think of it more black and white way, like, what's in your contract? What do you have to do for your work? And I guess a lot of people will always do a little bit more than that. Some people might do a little bit less than that, but I guess it becomes— so you've got your responsibility, you're meeting all your goals, you're doing what you're meant to do to get paid for, but it becomes unhealthy when it becomes more like a compulsion to keep working or that need to keep doing more and more and more, and the guilt that comes with not working, you know. So I think it's really about balance, and it becomes unhealthy when it leaks over into other parts of our life, like say family time, for example, or not doing hobbies as much or whatever. So there's less balance, we know there's something wrong.
Leanne ElliottWhat's driving that? What— why am I failing at actually detaching from work?
Elaine SmithWe know that obviously we're primed for it, right? So we have the phone everywhere. So it's not like you have to charge, like, open up the laptop and wait for the emails to come in. You just have your phone. It's about anxiety. Obviously, it's driven by anxiety. But also, if we think about what happens when you do check, okay, so every behavior, there's a reason behind it, as we know. How are you rewarded by checking? Right? So what happens is you feel the anxiety, you check, and then we experience short-term relief because often we're thinking, what if, what if, what if, you know, is that, you know, is somebody replied to that? Or it's a worry because it's usually driven by catastrophizing. Something bad happened, or often it is, maybe not always. And so when we check, we get short-term relief. And obviously that's a reward for us. It doesn't last very long, hence it's short-term. Wait some time and the anxiety builds again, um, and then we check. So I think it's partly habit, um, but definitely that reward we get because we want to feel relief, we want to get rid of that feeling, um, but by checking all the time, we're actually just feeding the anxiety.
Leanne ElliottWhat's a better habit to form than to deal with that anxiety? than the checking behaviors?
Elaine SmithUm, well, say we're talking about if you're, if you're on holiday, I do recommend for, for some people just getting rid of the apps or the notifications for that time, or disable them or whatever, right? Because temptation is difficult. Okay. So I think that's part of it. The other part of it is, so that's a practical way in terms of our psychology and our mental health. It's about noticing, here we go, here we go, anxiety. I feel you again. I feel this again. But what we know about anxiety is that if we look at it on a curve, it has to peak somewhere. And once it peaks, of course, then it will reduce, but we have to stay with it. So in a way, we have to like ride the urge and find something else to do while that anxiety's going. It might be going a walk, it might be listening to music, just talking to somebody, just connecting with somebody. Probably doing something off the phone, ideally. Um, in that time while that anxiety is peaking, and then it will reduce. It can't keep going up and up and up. It will reduce. So I think it's about doing that. Um, you could say it's a distraction technique, but that's okay short term to let us, because we're trying to retrain ourselves and form a new habit.
Leanne ElliottI like that. So if, if somebody's got a holiday coming up in a couple of weeks' time. Would you recommend start setting those boundaries now? So, as you say, maybe remove those apps from your home. You can only check on your laptop, not doing it in non-working hours. Will that help then when we are on, on holiday to detach?
Elaine SmithAbsolutely. Because it's about practice. It's a bit about confidence as well, you know, building that confidence that you don't need to check all the time. Um, and it's trying something new, and ideally it's good to try that something new before Or there's enough to think about going on holiday, which is part of this as well. There's enough physical, practical preparation without sort of adding in. So you need to do a little bit of work before the holiday, um, just to, yeah, to prepare, give yourself the best chance. There's so much time, effort, and money spent on a holiday, yet a lot of people say, I don't even know if it's worth it, which I think is a real shame. You know, it's a dreadful shame we've come to that. So, I really want to help people to try and really embrace the holiday.
Leanne ElliottWe mentioned that we can practice the not checking, um, during work, um, after work hours before we go on holiday. As you said there, deciding what emails you would look for and potentially open. Is there anything else that we can do to, to prepare? For a holiday. Um, so we are, yeah, setting ourselves up for success.
Elaine SmithYeah, definitely. So there's a couple of things. There's, um, doing a handover. Like, if there's somebody else that's going to be taking care of your work, or, I mean, I know it's sort of rarer that there's somebody actually doing your job perhaps when you're away, but somebody who's taking care of any emergencies or something, like having a chat with them, you know, it's a bit of passing the baton, isn't it? Because when you're away, you'll pass the baton to them and vice versa. When they're away, you'll do the same. Okay, so it's— it should be shared in that way, but definitely about having a chat with them and just making it clear if there's anything A, B, or C you want them to look out for, um, to be very clear. And this is all about clarity as well, setting that boundary. And then, um, I also talk about setting a really good out-of-office email, um, because that is your own personal boundary plan, if you like. And it also really helps to set expectations. So it's being really clear in your— I've seen some good out-of-office emails, but you know, some people say they're on the beach, or you can inject personality. It's a very personal choice, but one that really works for you, saying I'm away from this date until this date. For example, and making it clear that on your return— I think this is the really important part— on your return, buying yourself a little bit of time. You could even say, I'm likely to have lots of emails on my return, but I do hope to get back to you within 2 business days, 3 business days, whatever it is, you know, and being really realistic about that because that really helps us. to be like, okay, I've told people exactly what they can expect from me, and I need to stick to that. It's actually, well, in my view, it's quite unprofessional to say I won't be reply— I won't be looking at or replying to emails on my leave, and then actually sort of breaking that. You've already stated what you're going to do and what you're not going to do, and then you kind of break your own rule. So I think it's really important that we set out Very clearly, and we stick to it.
Leanne ElliottHow does that impact the person receiving that? Is it going to negatively impact their view of them, how much they trust them, whether they want to work with them? Can it have that much of an impact?
Elaine SmithI don't know about having maybe that much of an impact, but I guess, well, maybe it's because I'm a psychologist, I'd be going, oh, you said you weren't going in. Look, I wonder, I wonder what was driving you to look at your emails. I know maybe not everybody's going to think like that, um, but I would certainly be wondering, oh, but You said this. Now, the person actually getting a reply might be happy. Okay, this is another part of it because they're wanting one. But the important thing here is when we set the boundary, what we do is we're actually training other people not to expect a reply. This is like operant conditioning in action. So even if we reply to somebody 1 in 10 times on a Sunday night, They'll always be like, oh, but Elaine replied that Sunday night before, so I'll give it a go again. You know, so we are, we're, we're training other people their behavior by how we behave. And if we just, if we stop and they're getting, never getting a reward from emailing us at those times or having expectations of us, they will stop that behavior. That's how, that's how we work. It's just that it's not, it's not instant.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Elaine SmithBut it is, it is important to remember we do have that ability.
Leanne ElliottAnd what can we do to, to help ourselves stick to those boundaries again? I mean, especially if you're a leader, it can feel really, really difficult. Um, a business owner especially, I see it in who, you know, want to check in and make sure everything's okay. How do they set a hard boundary and stick to it?
Elaine SmithI think people do generally find it tricky, but what they need to remember is why they're doing it. Because if they don't get proper— if you think about if we don't get proper rest, what's going to happen if we have that chronic stress all the time? It often leads to mental health or even physical health problems. So we must take— we must believe and even read about rest. Read about rest and productivity. Okay. Because I think that's quite a motivating factor.
Al ElliottYeah.
Elaine SmithAnd so that can help to stick to the boundaries. And sometimes if people find it really hard to do it just for themselves, although I would always advocate that's the most important part first, I would say, look, and this has worked when I've worked with leaders before, saying you're not just doing it for you, you're actually doing it for your family as well. You know, and when they can see that, Sometimes for people I've worked with, it's been a little bit of a lightbulb moment to go, okay, because it's not just affecting you as an individual, as a leader, it's affecting whoever you might be with or whoever else is in your life. And that can often help people to shift. And then when they do change the behavior, they reap the personal rewards as well, which hopefully means that it's actually easier to continue to do that for themselves as well. And have that self-compassion and go like, you deserve to have a rest. You deserve to have a break. You know, it's not, um, nobody's position means that they need to keep on working. There's actually no benefit to that. Rest provides us with so many benefits. Sometimes it helps to look at like the science of it. Depends on the person. Sometimes it helps to think, well, who else is benefiting from me sticking to those boundaries?
Al ElliottSo, Dr. Elaine has just laid out how to set boundaries. You need to be really clear about what you will and won't do and stick to it. And also, don't break your own rules. But I have to ask, Leanne, what if people are thinking, this all sounds great in theory, but my boss is never going to accept this?
Leanne ElliottI totally understand that fear. And at the risk of being a typical psychologist, it really will depend. It's going to depend on your organisation, its culture, and the behaviours of the leaders around you, and that's important. Elaine mentioned that leaders who model this behaviour actually give other people the permission to do the same. So look for that. It's almost like someone has to go first, and hopefully that's your leader. And it's so important because the science behind rest and recovery— it turns out there's actual research on what proper rest does for your brain and your performance when you come back. And we're about to hear some statistics that might change how you think about your holiday forever.
Al ElliottSo after this very short break, we're gonna rejoin Leanne and Dr. Elaine and discover exactly why rest makes you more productive. We're gonna hear that shocking story from a listener about the toxic workplace. Plus, Dr. Elaine will give us her strategy for the inevitable return to work inbox chaos. Don't go anywhere.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast, are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes— the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Seamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.
Elaine SmithIt is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good Show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Elaine SmithIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Elaine SmithDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottCut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottIt's interesting what you said there in terms of sometimes people understanding the impact and understanding the why can be really powerful. So what do we know about rest and recovery, and what does that mean for our future productivity and performance?
Elaine SmithWell, rest— obviously there's different types of rest, but obviously rest means a new behavior. It's like a change of behavior. There's also that saying that there's Change is as good as a rest, right? So even in that way, I think doing something different rejuvenates us, right? Having a change of pace and a change of routine in itself. But what we do know is that rest boosts productivity. Obviously, it helps soothe our nervous system. It has all these sort of mental health and physical health benefits. The way I kind of would overall describe rest or being in a different— if you're going on holiday, sort of being in a different environment, is that it gives us different perspective on life. We can spend so long in our own little bubble, and we just see life from a very similar lens each day. But I think going on holiday or having a break is almost like zooming out of that. And people find like they're more creative. So rest also leads to creativity. People have ideas. Sometimes people think about, what am I doing with my life? You know, in a positive way. And so I think, yeah, there are so many benefits of rest. And when we're truly rested, we can then come back and be at our peak performance, which is also what we want, because companies spend a lot of money on annual leave. You know, it's a very costly business. And we know in the UK in particular anyway, People generally get quite generous holidays, you know, it's just costing a lot of money. So, we want people, it's win-win, you know, we want people to feel fully rested because the organization benefits as well as the individual, which I think is, you know, it's hard to argue with.
Leanne ElliottI want to go back to what you were saying about rest, because I think there's a bit of a myth that rest means lying on a beach, rest means sleeping in late. Um, I know there's plenty of people that, that I have in my life that say, I can't, I can't just sit still. I can't. That's just not, that's just not me. What does rest look like really?
Elaine SmithThere's physical rest, emotional rest, there's even spiritual rest. You know, there's all these different types of rest, and it's about what fills us up really. So you could say going and doing a hobby, you know, it's rest. It's It's rest from our usual stressors or our usual life, I guess. It's like disconnecting from that part and reconnecting with what fills us up. And a lot of people I work with are definitely not the sunbathers all day. They're, they're busy doing people, and they get really restless and they get easily bored. So it needs to be things that appeal to us, but not But things that we want to do versus things we feel obligated to do as well. And I think that's an important distinction because sometimes what can happen is people can be off and say, oh, I'm going to completely do a deep clean of the house or something, which for some people actually is quite restful and soothing, but for others it isn't. And this is an important point as well. It's very individual. what we find restful. Um, yeah, so it's, it's not always lying about, and it's not, and it's not always being still. For a lot of people, it's actually the opposite of that, but it— we feel relaxed. I think that's the most important point. We feel relaxed and we feel like we're being energized by what we're doing, and often that's not the same as what we're doing every day and what we're doing at work.
Leanne ElliottI love to cook. That's my resting And recovery activity. So I start to get restless when I'm in a hotel for too long and I can't cook. Um, I know Al loves coding and I don't get it because it feels like work because he's sat in front of a computer.
Elaine SmithYeah, but it's not up to us to decide. But I guess when it, yeah, when it feels like that person feels obliged to do something, or, or this is the other one, I need to be productive. Um, and often that's fed by people who might experience traits of perfectionism as well. Or because, as you mentioned this about societal society's views on rest, which is often that's lazy, or the word lazy accompanies it. And then people feel like I have to do something productive. But if we reeducate people about what it actually means, I think they would use resting time differently.
Leanne ElliottThis actually came from a listener to the show who, who really wanted this episode to go ahead to get this type of advice. Um, so they were saying, would love to know ways to deal with colleagues who expect that you will check emails whilst on leave. 2 examples come to mind. The first time I went on annual leave at my last place, I was basically told to check my emails daily. The justification was that it wasn't reasonable to expect my secretary, who also had access to my inbox, to decide whether something was urgent and needed to be passed on or could wait. Another time on leave, there was a day when I didn't check my emails. In those 24 hours, a colleague sent multiple slightly pissy emails about me not replying, even though they acknowledged I was on holiday. I mean, it's shocking examples, isn't it? Shocking examples. But I mean, in this, in this type of culture, when we, we're seeing these types of behaviours from colleagues, what, what can you do as an individual to try and set that boundary?
Elaine SmithYeah, I will just say, listening to that, I mean, that's obviously deep organisational cultural problems there. And, and those individuals were probably just doing what they could to try and manage the enormous stress. But that also doesn't make it okay. But that's probably how we can understand it. Um, but yeah, I guess in those situations— now I'm gonna say it, I'm not saying it's easy, but sometimes if we just stick to the facts and just state to people, like, know your boundaries, know when You're going to stop replying, know when you're going to have your whole leave, and that you're not telling them, I won't be, you know, have it on your out of office explicitly in bold if you must. I will not be checking my emails. If we are clear with people, they actually do prefer it. And there's a saying as well that people who, you know, who don't respond well to boundaries often need them the most. Right. So it's a tough, it's a tough sell sometimes because you're going to set boundaries and you might— we could probably expect some people won't like it initially, but that's actually all right. You know, that's part of the process and that's part of the reason we need to set them, because these people really, really need them. And then one time in the future, they might actually be grateful for it. So it's about just sticking to that, like not trying to get emotional with these colleagues. And being very matter-of-fact, as much as we can be, and not getting sort of drawn in, because that's a lot of their stuff, isn't it? That's a lot of their fears and their anxiety that belongs to them. But we can quickly get drawn in, into the emotion of that and wanting to be liked and wanting to be helpful. And all of that doesn't really help anybody. So we just have to kind of stick to it. And be very, very strict. And I know it's easier said than done, but it's very possible. And just be clear. You know what Brené Brown says? Clear is kind, unclear is unkind. And I think that's another way of thinking about all of this. We just tell people what we're going to do and what we're not going to do and stick to it. That's how I would almost summarize this. You know, that's the best we can do for people and obviously help to train them as well. That even if they send us 100 emails on a Sunday night or for 100 weeks, we're not going to respond.
Leanne ElliottWhat do you say if somebody's thinking, yeah, I'd like to set a hard boundary, Elaine, but I might get fired for it?
Elaine SmithUm, I'd certainly hope somebody wouldn't be fired for it, but I can, I can understand what you're saying about the fear. What's going to happen if I do this or if I do that? I would turn it around slightly and say, leader's not just by title. So whether you're a leader or not, there's, there's somebody above you, you can lead in this behavior. You can be the one to set the tone, because what I guarantee is that once you set that boundary, others will follow when they see it, especially if you are in a leadership role. There's definitely, there's definitely something about being able to set the boundary and think, you know, there's other people who are going to go, thank goodness. So glad they did that because I want to do that now. Maybe I can do that when I go on the holiday, or just in general to say I'm not, not replying in the evenings or at weekends. Um, so actually, I think you set the tone. You go, you make a decision. You do make a decision, and you make a decision to commit to this as well. And remember that you're not doing anything wrong. You're entitled to your time. outside of work. And it's only because of how society's changed that this has become a problem. Never really used to be a problem. We've kind of created it, so we need to fix it. And to be made to feel pressure in any way that you have to do something when you don't want to do it. Well, what would we say to children about that? You know, we'd say, well, you have to say no. So we can think about it in that way as well. And sometimes, I mean, you could say that that can cross the line into bullying and harassment as well. You know, I mean, like, where those boundaries are. But that, that can be how it can leave the person, like your listener, for example, just to feel terrible, you know, receiving that when they're not doing anything wrong. They're actually, you know, trying just to have annual leave and being met with this sort of boiling kind of rage or whatever it was, discontent from the organization.
Al ElliottYeah.
Elaine SmithRather than they've done anything wrong. You know, it's just absolutely toxic. And we, we do need to fix that. We do need to do something about that.
Leanne ElliottAnd as you say, I guess, you know, it's that understanding that this will be uncomfortable and you probably will get some pushback. And if you, you know, most people want to do a great job and be there for the colleagues and support them in the best way that they can. But as you say, once, once those boundaries start to be reinforced through your own behaviour, It's gonna have an impact on, on the other person's behavior, isn't it? That modification will start to happen if they see it.
Elaine SmithYeah, if they're not getting any reward from constantly contacting, no matter what they say, if they ramp up the language, which kind of what your listener's one sounded like, you know, ramping up the language, the emotional pull, it's not fair, I'm the secretary, that kind of thing. Um, they realize no matter what they say or do, you're not replying. People will stop. That behavior will become extinct. That's what happens. It's a fact, but we must stick to it and remember that fact. If you reply 1 in 5 or 10 or 20 times, that's a very strong reinforcer for people. So it's not just about the volume, it's about not doing it at all. You know, and we have a personal responsibility in that as well. So sometimes I would say, well, if you do keep replying, they're going to keep emailing. Okay, they shouldn't be emailing you out of power of respect, but we have, we need to take personal responsibility as well. And I was thinking about this too, about as a clinical psychologist, part of our training is obviously a lot about boundaries because of the therapeutic relationship. It's really important we have very strict boundaries. So I think that's partly where I come at this from as well. Um, but what that means is it's completely non-negotiable for us. Like, there's, there's no negotiation with that. So for example, Client emails me at a weekend or whatever, I will never reply and never reply. And that's to keep very strict, healthy therapeutic boundaries. I think that is extremely important. Don't get me wrong, and I think this is helpful too. I know people, for some people in life, there's that flexible working. They might do emails at night, 1 or 2 hours at night because they have to do the school run or something. We want a world where it's individual and it's flexible. What I would say for that is you can schedule your emails. Don't get them sent at 11 PM, right? You need to schedule them for working time. Now that, I think that's okay. And I know a lot of people with family or caring commitments do that, but make sure your output is in working hours. That's what I would say. You can manage that to best suit you and to train other people.
Leanne ElliottI think this is tipping into, into bullying, harassment type behaviors, and setting these boundaries is the only, it's the only way to survive this environment. Um, I think ultimately, you know, long-term, it's, it's, it's not, it's, unless they go through a culture change themselves, it's not going to get any better, but boundaries sounds like survival at this point.
Elaine SmithUnfortunately, in a way, it's got to that point. Um, but yeah, for longevity, for protecting our own health, when we think of stress hormones and the damage they can do, um, yeah, we need boundaries to put a line under work and to fill up our life with stuff that's not work, which is really important as well. Um, so that we kind of— I mean, I know work can be varying levels of importance to people, but a lot of people I work with work is a lot of their life, you know, it fills up a lot of their identity, a lot of their reason for being. But that becomes bigger the less, the less other stuff we have in our life. So the less time we spend with family and friends, the less time we do hobbies, you know, we can almost inflate work to a bigger sense of importance by having less in our life. So that's another thing, I think it's probably another episode, but I think that's important as well.
Al ElliottI know we've already teased this story, but Honestly, it's kind of, kind of shocking, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottShocking. So shocking. And Dr. Elaine just called that behaviour exactly what it is— absolutely toxic. And honestly, hearing that listener's story about being sent angry emails whilst they're on holiday, it's hard not to get worked up about that for them.
Al ElliottIt really, really is. And as we just heard, boundaries are survival at this point. So this isn't about being polite or professional anymore. This is about protecting your mental health from genuinely harmful, Exactly.
Leanne ElliottAnd the psychology she explained— chef's kiss. Even if you reply just once in 10 times, you're actually reinforcing that behavior. That is operant conditioning in action. You are literally training people to harass you. But here's the important thing: even if you do set those boundaries, even if you survive the pushback, there's still that moment of truth When you come back from holiday, that inbox, that anxiety, how do you actually prepare for that without ruining the last few days of your break?
Al ElliottI think we've all been there. So, this is where Dr. Elaine gets really practical.
Leanne ElliottI mean, for people listening who are like, okay, I've got some good tips here, some good things that I can do before I go, whilst I'm on holiday, there is the inevitable reentry, that going back into work, that day one, that inbox. How do you, how do you prepare for that on the Sunday night before the Monday morning? How do you prepare for that and how do you deal with, with what you're walking into when you get there?
Elaine SmithIdeally, what I would recommend, you actually prepare for that before you even go on holiday because you block out the time for looking at your emails when you get back. So obviously it depends what your role is, but wherever possible, you know how sometimes we can be overly optimistic and think After my holiday, I'll sort that after the holiday, I'll sort that after the holiday. And you've got— you come back and you think, I really wish pre-holiday me had done that task, right? So what we don't want to do is overload all that stuff at once when we get back, because it's not going to— you're not going to— nobody's going to win from that. It can feel like there's a compulsion to fill up the diary. So block out at least— well, it depends— at least that morning that you get back. Just to prioritize. And that's what you're going to do. You're just going to prioritize your, your emails, and you're going to look at them, and you're going to see— you could maybe grade them or whatever and see what really needs attention. A lot of them, as we know, probably, you know, sort of emailed to everybody, or you're CC'd in, or it's not even that important, right? So The number is not that important. It's more of what you have to engage with. So try not to get engrossed in the number of emails you have. Try to work out how many you actually need to reply to. It's probably quite a small percentage. I'd say probably 5 or 10%. And then, um, yeah, so block out the time. Remember what you said in your out-of-office about how long you were going to take to reply and resist the urge it all to be immediate or feel like, or feel like everybody knows that you're back. Everybody in the whole company knows that you're back and they're all waiting for your reply because they're not. You know, there might be one or two, but they're not all thinking, back today, back today. That's probably more in our mind. And just have realistic goals. You know, you're probably not going to reach inbox zero, but what you're going to do is you're going to just manage it. Have a bit of perspective as well. Like, if it all becomes a lot, and you become— feel a bit overwhelmed or anxious, just think, these are only emails. Like, really? Well, we need to zoom out sometimes and check ourselves and go, these are only emails. If something was really urgent, it'll be passed to somebody else and it's probably been dealt with. And you'll probably go through an email like that and see it's actually been resolved. And if you do see that, think, see, that's actually what happens if something becomes urgent. That's what should happen anyway. Um, so yeah, it's about taking the time and not feeling like you're in this massive rush, because you've already set yourself up before your holiday. You've got this, at least this full morning, and you've already told people it might take 2 or 3 business days, whatever you state. So I think the preparation comes, comes quite a time before you go back.
Leanne ElliottI, I think it's so important, isn't it? You know, something that Al will always say, and, and I have now absorbed it as well, Um, he's always saying, how can I be as kind as possible to future Al? And I kind of think the same, like, how can I be as kind as possible to future Leanne? I should probably load the dishwasher before I go to bed.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBecause future Leanne will love that in the morning, to come into a clean kitchen.
Elaine SmithNo, exactly that. Yeah. And I think we do have a tendency, if something's a couple of weeks ahead, like your return to work, you know, you can become a bit blasé or like just think, oh, if it's a boring task or one you don't like, you'll leave it. But no, I do think it's about definitely thinking, what's the reality when I come back? What could I do now that is gonna make my life a little bit easier or more pleasant in the future?
Leanne ElliottIf somebody's listening and going, I just need the one thing, what's the one thing, Elaine? Is there just one thing they could do?
Elaine SmithJust remember that people actually prefer clarity. We are being kind to people by telling them what we're going to do and what we're not going to do. We're kind of being unkind by being vague. Even though that can feel better in the moment, I might look at my emails, I might be delayed in replying. No, just, just let's just be clear with each other. And then that actually makes life easier. And I think, you know, it's, it's, you know, boundaries are healthy. You know, just think boundaries are healthy. We need them. We try and set them for, for children all the time because we say that, but we don't really apply it to ourselves as adults. So that's what I would say. You just be really clear, unapologetically clear about what you're going to do. And usually it works out absolutely fine.
Al ElliottThat was the amazing Dr. Elaine Smith, clinical psychologist and expert in workplace mental health, and also lives about 3 miles from where my grandma used to live in Edinburgh. So these are the 3 key takeaways that I can see. First of all, your brain is literally wired to be anxious when you stop checking. So it's not a character flaw. It's learned behaviour. Number 2 is that clear boundaries aren't rude. They're actually kinder than being vague. And of course, number 3, proper rest doesn't make you lazy. It makes you dramatically more productive when you return.
Leanne ElliottAnd let's not forget that Dr Elaine's advice is grounded in proper psychology, and we like that. We talked about operant conditioning, which explains why replying just once reinforces bad behaviour. We also talked about anxiety curves that show us why we need to ride the wave Rather than constantly checking our emails for a moment of relief. And of course, those practical strategies like blocking out return time and writing crystal clear out-of-office messages. You've got everything you need to get boundary setting right now.
Al ElliottSo if you've got a holiday coming up and you're already feeling anxious about switching off, or maybe you're dealing with colleagues who expect you to be available 24/7, Dr. Elaine's just given you permission to set those boundaries and the psychological tools to actually stick to them.
Leanne ElliottAnd please remember, you are not being difficult when you refuse to check emails on holiday. You're modeling healthy behavior that others desperately need to see. And honestly, future you will thank present you for being brave enough to truly disconnect. I'm pretty sure your family will thank you for that as well.
Al ElliottAnd of course, as mentioned, Dr. Elaine's Holiday Headspace Masterclass. This is the one that takes you through the 5 practical steps for maximum holiday rest. You can find out much more about that at drelanesmith.com. We'll put a link in the show notes. Oh, and if you listen this far, then you're gonna get a 20% discount. Just use the code TRUTHLIESWORK20. Again, that's gonna be in the show notes. Leanne, it's not particularly expensive, is it?
Leanne ElliottIt's not. Even at full price, it is only £39 British pounds. So what, $50 at the most?
Al ElliottMaybe less than that.
Leanne ElliottAnd you'll get 20% off. So go and head over to Dr. Elaine's website. We will leave all the links and that promo code in the show notes. So off you go, dear friend, book that time off and actually enjoy it. This is Truth, Lies and Work, and we will see you next week when we're on our holiday.
Elaine SmithBye.