Episode 238 · 7 October 2025 · 52:30
Mr Beast on hiring A-players, digital hangovers and risky workplace humour. PLUS! Are tall people really more successful?
Mr Beast on hiring A-players, digital hangovers and risky workplace humour. PLUS! Are tall people really more successful?
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Digital hangover: what it is and how to recover
news roundup#digital-hangover#burnout#recovery#work-life-balance
Is workplace humour too risky?
news roundup#workplace-humor#office-culture#hr#communication
MrBeast's vibe check hiring trials
news roundup#hiring#recruitment#mrbeast#talent-acquisition
Truth or Lie: Are tall people really more successful?
truth or lie#success#height#bias#workplace-myths
Workplace Surgery: Building a reliable team when you're used to doing it all yourself
workplace surgery#team-building#delegation#management#trust
Workplace Surgery: Letting someone go who's trying their best
workplace surgery#firing#termination#performance-management#difficult-conversations
Workplace Surgery: Keeping great people when you can't compete on pay
workplace surgery#retention#compensation#employee-engagement#leadership
Show notes
Mr Beast on Hiring A-Players, Digital Hangovers & Risky Workplace Humour. PLUS! Are Tall People Really More Successful?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down MrBeast's 90-day "vibe check" hiring trials, the science behind the digital hangover epidemic, and whether workplace humour is now too risky to attempt. Plus, in Truth or Lie: are tall people really more successful? And in the Workplace Surgery, three listener questions on delegation, difficult dismissals, and competing with bigger pay packets.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Digital hangover — the new workplace epidemic That wired-but-drained feeling after a day of screens has a name. Leanne digs into the science of digital overload — including what too much screen time might be doing to our grey matter — and practical tips for shaking it off, from textured objects to putting the phone in another room.
2. Is workplace humour too risky? New research from Peter McGraw, Adam Barsky, and Caleb Warren suggests workplace humour might be more dangerous than it's worth. Al and Leanne debate whether the risk of offence outweighs the bonding benefits — and why Jimmy Carr's approach to pushing boundaries might actually hold the answer. Source →
3. MrBeast's vibe check — smart hiring or commitment avoidance? The world's biggest YouTuber has introduced 90-day trial periods for all new hires, complete with temporary housing and rental cars. The goal? Testing whether someone can adapt to high-speed, high-stakes production work. Al and Leanne break down what's genuinely smart about this — and what's missing. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: "Are Tall People Really More Successful?"
The verdict: TRUE, but with massive caveats.
Research shows height correlates with career success — each inch predicts about £600 more in annual earnings. Since 1900, the taller US presidential candidate has won 81% of elections. But height explains only 7% of earning variation, leaving 93% to actual skills, education, and other factors.
The effect operates through perceptual bias (we see tall people as more leader-like), modest correlations with intelligence and health, and self-fulfilling prophecies from being treated like a leader from childhood. Leanne breaks down the three main theories — and why this is ultimately discrimination, not destiny.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Delegation: "How do you build a reliable team when you're used to doing everything yourself without losing quality control?"
- Difficult dismissals: "What do you do when you have to let someone go even though they're trying their best and improving?"
- Retention: "How do you keep great people when you can't compete on pay with bigger companies?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Al ElliottMrBeast is vibe-checking new hires with 90-day trials. That means temporary contracts, rental cars, and a clear shot at proving you're an A-player. Is it actually smart hiring or just a way to avoid commitment?
Al ElliottAnd in our new segment, Truth or Lie, we ask, are tall people really more successful? Presidential candidates or CEO boardrooms, or even your last team meeting, the tall people seem to be winning. You could say they're standing head and shoulders above everyone else. There is real data behind this one, but the question is, does height cause success, or is it something far more interesting that's going on?
Al ElliottPlus, in the Workplace Surgery, one business owner asks, how do you build a reliable team when you're used to doing everything yourself? And how do you do it without losing control of the quality?
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work.
Al ElliottThe award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational My name is Al.
Al ElliottI'm a business owner.
Al ElliottAnd together we help organizations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo let's get right into it after a quick word from our beautiful sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Al ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot. Because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup. It is time for news roundup. Al, cue the jingle. Jingle is being queued. Leanne, what have you seen?
Al ElliottGot a new word.
Al ElliottLovely. What is it then?
Al ElliottDigital hangover.
Al ElliottOkay. Do you want to guess? Yeah, go for it. Probably feeling like a little bit overwhelmed with digital stuff. It's like if you've got a hangover, you've drunk too much. If you've got a digital hangover, you've probably consumed too much digitally.
Al ElliottYeah, a digital hangover. You nailed it, Al. I came across it in Psychologies magazine. A bit of a pop psych moment for me this week. And it was because it was a really great piece by Ali Roth-Herah.
Al ElliottHerah!
Al ElliottIt's not Harar, it's Farah. Sorry, Ali. Um, and it properly, um, it, I thought it was proper good. So it's that feeling when you've been on your laptop all day, you're mindlessly scrolling Instagram, guilty, and then suddenly you're starting to feel wired and drained at the same time. Have you ever felt that?
Al ElliottI don't really feel wired and drained. I think I just feel overwhelmed. And like yesterday, I was a really, really rubbish day yesterday. I just didn't feel like doing anything, didn't feel motivated. And I spent the morning just watching YouTube Shorts and Something else, and I don't think that helped at all.
Al ElliottYeah, it makes you a bit restless, doesn't it? Yeah, well, that is what a digital hangover is. So what's actually happening apparently is your brain is overstimulated by the lights, the sounds, the rapid visual input, but your body's just sitting still, and that mismatch creates what she calls, what Ali calls, a sensory disconnect, which leaves us feeling jittery, tired, and restless.
Al ElliottThat's what I felt yesterday. I thought I had too much coffee, but that's probably it.
Al ElliottWell, there you go. You had a digital hangover yesterday, love.
Al ElliottI did.
Al ElliottThe science, if you dig into it, could be slightly more worrying because it has been found that too much screen time has been linked to thinning in the outer layer of the brain. That's the part that deals with problem solving, decision making. You remember when people lost their absolute shiz about ChatGPT and the brain imaging?
Al ElliottRight.
Al ElliottAbout how it was starting again to thin this grey matter in our brain.
Al ElliottI didn't go across the road.
Al ElliottDid you miss that? Oh, LinkedIn lost their minds over it. And it's not wrong, it is a really interesting study, but it's not, it's not really new. We've seen this before with, you know, TV's gonna rot your brain type thing. That's where it all, all comes from. Um, so the same is, is, is true when you're just scrolling, um, on the Tinterweb. Um, it can actually start to, to affect your brain, physiologically speaking. Um, and that could be messing with memory and movement and emotions as well, Al. So maybe that is why you're feeling a little bit—
Al ElliottHmm.
Al ElliottBlue yesterday. So Ali included some practical suggestions in her article as to how you might manage or get over a digital hangover. She says get tactile, so hold something textured or sip something warm.
Al ElliottCan you say that word, textured?
Al ElliottTextured.
Al ElliottYeah, okay, very good, very good.
Al ElliottWhat did I say?
Al ElliottTextured.
Al ElliottTextured.
Al ElliottTextured. Okay, so hold something textured, like a what, like a dog?
Al ElliottYeah, I think more of a fluffy pillow, but yeah, you could, same thing, I guess. So I guess what she's getting at is you're starting to stimulate your body as well as your mind. Go analog, so read a few pages of a book or do some slow handwriting. Try the 20-20-20 rule, so every 20 minutes look at something 20 feet away for 20 seconds. And she describes screens as sugar for the brains— tastes good but no nourishment. So that's a digital hangover. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottI like that. I love analog, but the problem is Obviously living here in this country is we can't really get— well, we can't get Amazon. The nearest Amazon is Germany. So I use the Kindle. So I'm thinking, go and read a book, but I'm gonna pick up my Kindle. I'm gonna read my book. So that's not really the same thing. I started doing— do you remember me sitting there last Thursday and I spent all day just going through— we're building a secret product that we can't tell anyone about.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottAnd I just wrote it all out in a notebook with a pencil. And I got to the point where I had to sharpen it 3 or 4 times and I was like, oh, this is good. I must be writing a lot. I felt that I learned or I absorbed much more using a pencil and paper than I would've done if I typed it into a notebook.
Al ElliottYeah, I think there's actually some science that shows that actually, that in terms of absorbing information, actually kind of writing it out can help with the memory of it. Can I just— I'm so distracted because I love you so much, Denning, and I love that you sit there with your notebook and you're so interested and so engaged with it. I would like to talk to you about The pressure in which you put your pencil on paper, because it makes a noise that for me is a bit like nails on a chalkboard.
Al ElliottI didn't know.
Al ElliottSo I can't sit next to you when you're writing in your notebook. I have to go away or put some headphones in. But I equally, I don't wanna disturb the process 'cause you look so happy. But if you see me move away or just put on some white noise, that's why.
Al ElliottI've got a pencil here. The temptation to write something now is almost too much. Okay, I promise you I will bear that in mind. I might even swap to ballpoint pen.
Al ElliottNo, no, honestly, continue to use your pencil. I'll just, I'll just remove myself.
Al ElliottWe're building a new house, listener. If you, if you follow along with anything on like Instagram or whatever, I think, I think Leanne might put some stuff on there.
Al ElliottI haven't actually. No, that's an exclusive, listener. That's an exclusive.
Al ElliottYou heard it here first. Building a new house. So what we'll do is I'll, I'll add an extra wing, which will be the pencil writing wing.
Al ElliottYes.
Al ElliottAnd I'll soundproof it and, and I'll just go in there and, oh, I can make a secret door. I can make a door out of pencils. Right. Okay. I wanna finish this pod as soon as I can because I wanna design my door of pencils. Anyway.
Al ElliottAnyway. Yeah. So that's a digital hangover. And as I started reading a bit more into it, there's another side to it as well, which is kind of more related to shame. So when you feel like, you know, when you've posted something online, it doesn't go down very well. Oh yeah. And you start to spiral into, have I said something awful? Yep. And then, and then you, so there's that side of it as well, can apparently be a digital hangover. Moderation, I think, is the key here, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, yeah, and just knowing yourself. I was, I was, as you know, regular listeners, we had somewhat of a challenging summer. I had to delete my news app. I couldn't, I couldn't deal. Couldn't deal. I was getting sucked into all sorts of darkness. Anyway, that's, um, what is it called? Digital hangover. Al, what have you seen?
Al ElliottLee, knock knock.
Al ElliottWho's there?
Al ElliottHR.
Al ElliottHR who?
Al ElliottHR, we want to talk to you about that joke you told at the meeting because it was vastly inappropriate. That is what I've been reading about. I've been reading about being funny in the workplace and how it can sometimes backfire.
Al ElliottIs that a really good example of how you're not funny?
Al ElliottI thought, I thought it would bring a bit of levity to the, to the, to the conversation.
Al ElliottYes, sure.
Al ElliottOkay, fair enough. Oh, well, that fell on stony ground. Well, we will talk about that because there's a recent study by Peter McGraw, Adam Barsky, and Caleb Warren from a collection of universities. I think it's basically America, Australia.
Al ElliottOoh, it's like academic collab.
Al ElliottAcademic collab. They're originally in, let me have a little look. They're originally in, yes. So I read it in phys.org. That's not fizz as in like fizzy drinks. That's P-H-Y-S, physics.org. Essentially what they're saying is it might be too risky to use humour in the workplace. So humour, obviously we all know this, humour by its very nature is very personal. Like Jimmy Carr might make me laugh, please don't cancel me, cancel him, but others might be horrified about what he jokes about. So the researchers are saying that you run the risk of being really bland and boring if you tell clean jokes, and people will think you're dull. But then you go the other way and you start telling jokes like Jimmy Carr might in the workplace. That's where HR will knock on your door and will want to have a bit of a conversation with you. Let me read from the article. It says, for a joke to be funny, it has to break certain social rules while simultaneously seeming harmless. Jokes that are too lame get yawns, but jokes that violate too many rules may end up triggering outrage. Landing a joke is hard enough in the comedy club, they note, but in an office environment, the razor-thin line between hilarity and upset becomes even harder to walk. Now, they did also point out, Leanne, that the same joke could provoke a different reaction if told by a man or a woman. So they said this, this is quoting again, there is harsher backlash for women than men for behaviour seen as offensive or norm-violating. So I think what I'm reading from that is that I tell the joke, you tell the exact same joke, and in a broader setting, people might be a bit more shocked if you were perhaps a little bit more—
Al ElliottMm-hmm. Salty.
Al ElliottSalty. Exactly. Exactly. What are your thoughts?
Al ElliottI think nothing will make humour less funny than a bunch of psychologists studying it.
Al ElliottTell that to—
Al ElliottWith all respect.
Al ElliottPeter McGraw, who's written several books on this. No.
Al ElliottAnd, you know, and I, I read articles on this and I've read journals on this and I find it really interesting, but it, it completely takes a topic that is that is light and funny and makes it very serious and introspective and steeped in discrimination, bias, and social norms. And it's— do you know what? I think the thing is, let's not forget, funny person who wants to bring that energy to the office. You're not a comedian on stage.
Al ElliottMm.
Al ElliottJimmy Carr is funny. I agree, he's funny. He pushes it. But what I like about Jimmy Carr is he's like, he doesn't discriminate. He will rip anyone and everyone to shreds, including himself. Yes, actually, which I think is important. But if he talked the way he did on stage in the office, he would get sacked, he would get disciplined. You know, you just can't— it's different, it's a different world. I think it's about authenticity, isn't it? If you're making a joke that, that is, I think, is a shared experience of the people in the office, or is something that is uniting in a way, or it's just part of kind of your You're kind of, what's it called, when you have your rituals in the workplace, then it's fine. But I think if you're trying too hard to be funny, that's when you're possibly, yeah, stepping into something that's a bit awkward. And also the whole like, oh, can I not say anything anymore? People are so sensitive. It's like, if people aren't laughing, it's probably not funny.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottSo don't. But yeah, I don't know. I remember, I remember one of— I told this so many times and we thought it was always funny because it became part of our ritual. When, um, you know Alec?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottAlec won't be listening because he only ever watches on YouTube when we start putting it up, but, um, on the off chance that he is, hi Alec. Um, so Alec was in the office in Manchester and Adrian was there, one of the other managers, and, um, Adrian had some gossip as he typically did, um, and Alec went, shut the door, which is a very northern expression for shut up.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, Adrian didn't get this and actually got up and closed the office door. So, so it just became this whole thing that it was like, if we actually needed to shut the door, you just go, shut the door. And that's funny. We weren't taking the mick out of Adrian because all 3 of us were there laughing together. And it creates this kind of, this ritual almost within a team, which can be very bonding. I don't know. It's all, it really does depend, doesn't it? Which I know isn't useful, but you're probably not as funny as you think you are. It's probably the rough rule to live by, right?
Al ElliottYeah, I think so. And I mean, also you talk about managers there and there's, there's 2 aspects to that is the first of all, if you are a manager and you're making jokes, then maybe your team feel compelled to laugh at you. And on the other hand, if like, if your manager does make a joke and you don't laugh, is that gonna— are you gonna get in trouble for that? In theory, you know, there's a whole minefield. And I think that as a manager, you can probably, probably make things a little brighter and probably make some jokes, but don't be the office joker, I think, because then you're just painting yourself into a corner of either people have to laugh at you or you're gonna go too far and get cancelled. That's my thoughts.
Al ElliottI agree. I think it comes down to this. It's much easier to get it wrong than it is to get it right if you're trying to be the funny person at work.
Al ElliottAll right, so let's all be dark and humourless at work. Leanne, what else have you seen?
Al ElliottI've seen, is vibe checking new hires the way to recruit A-players? This was the question raised in Business Insider this week, reporting on a new hiring approach Inside the empire of Jimmy Donaldson. You might not have heard of Jimmy Donaldson, but I know you've heard of MrBeast, the world's biggest YouTuber. On the off chance that you haven't come across him, MrBeast runs one of the most watched YouTube channels on the planet. He has more than 250 million subscribers and a business that now spans loads of stuff— burgers, chocolate, um, video games, all sorts. And according to Business Insider, his production company in Greenville, North Carolina has introduced a 90-day trial period for all new hires, known internally as a vibe check. In terms of, um, the vibe check, um, what it means, what they're looking for, is employees are on temporary contracts. This is important, so they're not permanent hires, temporary contracts. But the company provides short-term housing and a rental car to make the transition easier, assuming that the majority of people have to move to Greenville. The goal, according to the company, is to give both sides a realistic view of the job before committing long term. And the Business Insider piece went on to explain that the trial helps test whether someone can adapt to the speed and pressure of MrBeast's content— fast turnaround, high-stakes productions, and very high creativity, precision, and within that, probably very high levels of resilience. Other companies, it should be mentioned, have experimented with similar systems. Zappos— you're a big fan of Zappos.
Al ElliottI love Zappos.
Al ElliottWell, they famously offered new recruits a $2,000 bonus to quit after 4 weeks if they weren't fully committed.
Al ElliottThat's kind of cool.
Al ElliottIt's kind of cool, isn't it? Business Insider also pointed out that there are risks. So Emilio Castilla, a professor at MIT Sloan School of Management, warned that trial periods can backfire if their use maintains a rotating pool of temporary workers rather than genuine long-term hires. What starts as a fair try-before-you-buy system can easily turn into a way of avoiding commitment for the company, not for the employee. So what do you think, Al? Is vibe checking the secret to finding A-players?
Al ElliottYou've always said that you're not a big fan of the A-player, A-player model. I can understand why MrBeast runs it because, like, you know, number one in the world. I can understand. I don't know. Do you know what I want to do? I'd want to go to our friends over at the Curve Group and go, first of all, is this even something you can do in the UK? Is it— does it tick all the HR boxes? Personally, I like this idea. Personally, I like the idea of going on a few dates with a— no, that's, that's— you can't say that. Going on metaphorically or figuratively going on a few dates with an employee before you actually give— you sort of sign the deal. Um, I don't know. You've, you've been quite vocal about work trials before. You've been quite vocal about A-players. I think me without Leanne would've gone, love this, I'm doing this. Me with Leanne would go, I need to plan that a bit more and ask Leanne I am not against work trials, and I'm not against looking for top talent or A-players.
Al ElliottMy beef with it has always been it's too vague and it's used in a way that isn't very intentional. And where I think MrBeast might be onto something here is the article did go on to say that he has very clearly defined what he's looking for when he says A-player.
Al ElliottMm.
Al ElliottAnd I like this. So his own production guide He writes that A-players are obsessive, learn from mistakes, are coachable, intelligent, don't make excuses, believe in YouTube, see the value of this company, and are the best in the goddamn world at their job.
Al ElliottDo your goddamn job.
Al ElliottGoddamn. Uh, so I, I applaud that they have taken the time to actually define what an A-player looks like in the, the business of MrBeast. And I think that what's really interesting is when, when we can talk about vibe checks or things like that, we're talking about culture fit, which we know is actually a really poor predictor of future work performance. I think it's about 7%, to give you an idea. I think handwriting is about 5%.
Al ElliottRight, okay.
Al ElliottIt's almost useless. Yeah, almost useless. So I don't think what MrBeast is actually talking about necessarily is culture fit. Fit, but more that what he's defined is behaviours that are, and characteristics that are typically predictive of high job performance, including intelligence and coachability. Coachability is probably, and intelligence combined, are probably the 2 things that, you know, when you talk about, oh, I'd rather hire for attitude than experience, well, that's what you should be hiring for in terms of attitude really, is are you coachable? And I think having a trial period is gonna enable the team to understand if this person is coachable. And then they're talking about things like, do they believe in YouTube? Are you obsessed about this platform that we are? And having, you know, worked in content creation for the last 5 years or so, you do get obsessed with podcasts. You do get obsessed with what it means to create content. So I think it helps to be around people like that, 'cause when we talk to our peers on the HubSpot Podcast Network, like Phil Agnew from Nudge or Sonia Thompson from Inclusion Marketing, we get so excited.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo I can totally see in a high-pressure, relentless environment of content creation, having this kind of obsessive love for the platform and the content you're creating is really important. So actually, I think, I think that MrBeast might be onto something here in the way that he has defined what it means to be an A-player in the organisation. He's putting in a trial period that's very supportive in terms of the housing, in terms of car. You can kind of mimic what life will look like. Yeah, and I think that's And a really good point. I think that's a pretty smart thing to do. My concern, as always, is somebody's gonna read this and a business leader go, oh, we're gonna introduce a new thing, it's a vibe check. We're just gonna hire somebody for 3 months, if we don't like him, we'll get rid. And it's not— there's gonna be much more to it than that, much more thought through. Um, but I thought it was interesting. Um, yeah, what do you think?
Al ElliottYeah, I agree. I think it's a really, really good idea. Um, and it's like all of these ideas, whenever I bring you something I've seen on X or something like that, it's a great idea, you'll always go, yes, but it's not as simple as that. The one thing that you always say is if you do one thing, you train your managers, and then if you do a second thing, then you should define the job. Uh, you've got, you've got a name for it when you define it.
Al ElliottJob analysis.
Al ElliottJob analysis. You should define the role carefully. And I think what he's done here is, to be fair, looking at his, his description, it is very well defined. So yeah, very, very good. Okay, my love, uh, we will take a short break, I think. So after the break, we've got the brand new Truth or Lie segment where I ask Leanne something I've heard and she tells me whether it's a load of rubbish or not. And also we've got the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Don't go anywhere. See you in a second.
Al ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Al ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Al Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.
Al ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Al ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Al ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Al ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. It is time for Truth or Lie. It's our weekly myth-busting segment. So this is where we're gonna take those little psychology soundbites you see on TikTok, or TikTube as we call, uh, YouTube Shorts, or even LinkedIn. Um, and we say, does this actually stack up? Is it true?
Al ElliottYes, because let's be honest, psychology, ah, pop psychology, it's full of neat little claims, isn't it? And they feel true, they feel intuitive, they're simple, they're catchy, they spread like wildfire. But when you scratch the surface, a lot of them are built on half-truths, if any truth at all.
Al ElliottNow, I don't often do name-dropping here, but I'm going to today. Last week we had the pleasure having breakfast with the LinkedIn powerhouse, Jasmin Alic. He is, if you've ever been on LinkedIn, you'll know who he is. He's a Bosnian guy, lives in Zenica, up in the north of Bosnia, maybe about 3 hours from where we are. And he's just all over. He also works for LinkedIn now. I think they've brought him on.
Al ElliottHe's so cool.
Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah. He's effortlessly cool. He used to be a DJ. He's done this. He's used to be a rapper. Um, he's really cool. So we've always, we've seen him quite a lot and talked to him online, but this was the first time we actually met him.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWhen he stood up from the table, I was a little taken aback because I'm not, I'm not like particularly tall. I think I'm 5'11, but still he was, he was way taller than me and I was like, oh, hello. Oh, you're a big guy. Uh, so, uh, anyway, I'm digressing because I'm just a little bit, I was a little bit, um, starstruck by meeting him. He is a really cool guy. Anyway, my question to you, Leanne, is, are successful people tall or are tall people successful? Is there any correlation between being tall and being successful? Because I'm thinking about Tony Robbins. He's a tall guy. He's very successful. A lot of people I've met who've been extremely successful have been pretty tall, above average tallness, if that's a word. Leanne, truth or lie?
Al ElliottAre tall people more successful? Uh, well, there's a lot behind this one actually, and I think this idea really kind of took off after Malcolm Gladwell's book Blink. So he pointed out in that, that American chief executives are far more likely to be over 6 foot tall And then various media outlets ran with it. Discussions explode online, and suddenly everybody is convinced that if you're gonna be successful, you're gonna have to grow, eat the beans. I don't know what helps you grow.
Al ElliottPlatform shoes.
Al ElliottPlatform shoes. The reasoning is, I guess, the simple psychology reasoning is pretty simple, that height conveys authority. So physically, taller people command more presence in a room. And when you glance around a boardroom, yeah, the tall people do seem to stand out and they do seem a little overrepresented. But then maybe that's a male thing and male men tend to be taller. I digress. Let's start with what's actually true. So, I guess that's a pop psychology where the idea came from, the anecdotal evidence. But there is actually some real data behind this. So, in 2004, psychologists Timothy Judge and Daniel Cable published a comprehensive study examining height and workplace success.
Al ElliottHmm.
Al ElliottSo they ran a meta-analysis. We enjoy meta-analysis, Al. Why?
Al ElliottBecause, oh, I don't know. I know what longitudinal study is. I don't know what meta-analysis is.
Al ElliottSo a meta-analysis is when they combine the results of multiple studies. So say there's been 12 studies on height and workplace success. They're going to gather data of all of these 12 studies to look at it with one question in mind. So you've got more data from across different methodologies, perhaps different cultures, potentially a bigger sample size.
Al ElliottLike it.
Al ElliottYeah. So we like that. They found that height does correlate with career success, and the correlation was 0.26, which in psychology is considered a small to moderate effect. So something that's cool, if you ever see this in an article, like, oh, there's a correlation of 0.26, if you square that, you'll get the percentage.
Al ElliottThat's cool.
Al ElliottYeah. So do you wanna square 0.26?
Al Elliott0.26 times 0.26. Is, oh, 6.7, ah, times by 100, 6.76%.
Al Elliott6.76%. So it's quite low. So it's quite low. Yeah.
Al ElliottQuite low. Yeah. Okay. All right.
Al ElliottBut there is some more things to it. I mean, it is statistically significant in that it's higher than chance. Yeah. There is something else to this though. When the same researchers calculated, um, height in terms of earnings, they found that each inch of height predicted about £600 more in annual earnings, which over a 30-year career adds up to roughly £125,000. Um, so not an insignificant amount of money. And what's really cool is this pattern showed up, um, across the world. They found it in the US, Brazil, India, and the UK. It's not just one culture where height is an advantage. And that's important because a lot of these studies are usually confined to very Western-type cultures. Then there are presidents. So since 1900, the taller candidate in the US election has won 81%.
Al ElliottWell, that's a big gap.
Al ElliottYeah, of American presidential elections. Quite striking. Go back further in history, so before photographs were widely circulated, it drops to 60%.
Al ElliottOh.
Al ElliottSo, it's still above chance, but the effect seems to get stronger when people can actually see how tall the candidates are. So yeah, the correlation is real. Gotta ask the next obvious question, why?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottWell, there are 3 main theories that have emerged from the research as to why height might be an advantage in work. So, first, there is perceptual bias. So, that basically means that we perceive tall people differently. So, in another study in 2012, they found that, well, they basically showed people photos of the same person, But digitally altered them to be taller or shorter. I should like to be digitally altered to be taller. That would be nice. So, the taller versions were rated as more leader-like, more dominant, and healthier. The same person, same face, just stretched vertically.
Al ElliottWow.
Al ElliottSuddenly made them chief executive material. This is probably from evolution. There was roots. So, throughout human history, physical size has Typically been linked to fighting ability and dominance. Bigger opponent is on average more dangerous. And when groups face conflict, whether with rival groups or protecting resources, having physically imposing individuals on your side was the advantage. Did you have that? You had that in the pubs, right? You had all your big, your big doormen behind you.
Al ElliottYep.
Al ElliottMake you feel safe.
Al ElliottThat's true. Well, to be fair, I was behind them if it kicked off. I didn't stand out front. I was not a leader. I was definitely a follower in that situation.
Al ElliottYou had your backup.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo, that's the first one in terms of how height is perceived. The second is that height actually correlates modestly with some traits that matter at work. So, taller individuals do score slightly higher on intelligence tests. The correlation is small, about 0.1 to 0.26. So, again, the small kind of single-digit percentages depending on the study. That likely reflects childhood nutrition and socioeconomic status more than height actually causing intelligence. So yeah, there's that one. And then the third is self-fulfilling prophecy, which is really, really powerful actually. If you are treated like a leader from age 5 because you are the tall kid in class, you get practice being a leader, you get positive reinforcement, you develop confidence. So that by the time you are 35 and interviewing for a management position, You've had 30 years of people deferring to you, and that shows in how you carry yourself. So here's where the popular version goes wrong a little bit. So when business magazines or career advice columns say tall people are more successful, they're usually making it sound like height causes success, but the research shows it is a bit more complicated than that. So as we said, the effect of size is modest. That correlation of 0.26, as we worked out, means about 70% of the variance in earnings So that leaves 93% explained by other factors. So your actual skills, your education, your industry, your network, your work ethic, luck, timing, all of it. And of course, context matters enormously. So those original researchers that we mentioned that did the meta-analysis, Judge and Cable, they broke down their results by occupation. In sales, the correlation between height and earnings was 0.41. So that's a substantial effect.
Al ElliottYeah, it is. Yeah, 0.41, 0.41, that squared is 17%. So quite a bit more. Yeah, because sales is all about that persuasion and those first impressions.
Al ElliottBut in technical or professional work, the correlation dropped to 0.30. So, still there, but much weaker. So, your height matters less when you're writing code than when you're pitching to clients. That doesn't mean, business leader in sales, that you're going to start looking for tall people. It's like we've said, it's not quite that direct. There's also the causation problem. Does height make you successful, or do privileged children who grow up to be successful also happen to grow taller because they had better nutrition?
Al ElliottHmm.
Al Elliotthealthcare and less childhood stress.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottProbably. And then you've gotta think about, are we assessing candidates on, um, um, what they've achieved in the privileged setting they have, or what they've— the obstacles they've had to overcome to be competing at the same level? So, I talked about this with Sonia, um, on her podcast, that basically it's, for me, getting into the uni— into university isn't as impressive as someone who was maybe a carer from age 7 for their—
Al ElliottRight.
Al Elliottfamily who lived in a poor socioeconomic background, didn't go to as good a school, blah, blah, blah. Its context can make a big difference. So yeah, so there you go. And the effect operates differently for men and women, we should say, as well. So for men, the height advantage is mediated by perceptions of dominance and physical health. So people see a tall man and think strong, protective leader.
Al ElliottOoh.
Al ElliottFor women, it's primarily mediated by perceived intelligence. The dominance association doesn't always carry over in the same way.
Al ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottSo yeah, one thing to be really clear about, it is discrimination. Like I said, you can't just go out and hire somebody for their height. That is not the way, not the way to do it, unless of course you're recruiting astronauts for NASA and they need to be a certain height to press a button. I don't know. But then you've proved it for the job. You've done your job analysis. So there you go, Al. That is, that is kind of the research of it. So truth or lie? Well, the claim that taller people are more successful at work Is true, but does come with some caveats. So the correlation is real. It has been replicated across cultures. It's not just folklore. Height genuinely does give people a small statistical advantage, particularly in leadership roles and client-facing positions. But the popular version does oversimplify it. Height doesn't cause success. It just affects how others perceive you, and it correlates weakly with some other traits. And as we said, in other more technical roles, doesn't seem to make much of a difference. The effect is more modest. So there you go. Is it true? Yes. But don't overexaggerate.
Al ElliottLooking for a guy in finance, 6'3, blue eyes. Do you know what? I watched something talking about Jimmy Carr earlier. I watched a little short from Jimmy Carr on TikTube, and he was talking about someone said something about money, like rich people or whatever. And Jimmy Carr said, look, Money is just a proxy for competence. So in theory, now don't come for me, this is what Jimmy said, but he said women like men with money because it's a proxy for competence. So if they've got money, they're showing they're competent at life. He said you could also go and find people who can put up shelves, and they're very popular with women because it shows competence. You might go for someone in a barman, a bar person. So I said barman because I'm using this example of a man. Uh, so this person might be Uh, might be on like £6 an hour, £8 an hour, whatever bar people are on these days, but the competence makes them attractive. So maybe it's a similar kind of thing, is that the height is just a proxy for safety, perhaps. I don't know.
Al ElliottThere is a perception that we hold, isn't there, when somebody has certain characteristics that they're displaying to us that we can observe without knowing somebody very well. And height is something like that, as is competence in very, um, in exactly those examples that That you've given. And it is true, you know, we make those snap judgements. If it's 7 seconds, we make a judgement on, on somebody, and then that initial judgement needs to be shaped and moulded. And it's the same with pretty privilege that exists as well in terms of facial structure. But I think the key thing here is, one, don't discriminate. You can't recruit somebody just for their height unless you can absolutely prove it's necessary for the job. And if you are short, if you are a short queen like me, 5 foot 3, Don't worry, your career isn't doomed. Please remember from those statistics, 93% of career success is explained by other factors than height. So don't despair, it's gonna be okay.
Al ElliottI love it, I love it. Also, I think, did you say the people who did the study were called Judge and Cable?
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat is a TV show I'd watch. 2 TV detectives, Judge and Cable. Get in my office, Cable! Anyway, right, so let's move on to the world-famous weekly workplace surgery. Where I put your questions to Leanne. Lee, I've got question number 1. They've summarized it thusly: how do you build a reliable team when you're used to doing everything yourself? So it says, Dear Leanne, I run a small service-based business and I've reached the point where I need to scale, but I'm realizing the biggest bottleneck is me. I'm still handling everything myself, and the truth is I haven't found anyone I fully trust to take things off my plate. I wanna build a solid team, but I'm finding it hard to let things go. Where do you even start with this? Do you outsource first? Um, do you hire properly? How do you free up your time without losing control of the quality? Um, Leigh, I, I've personally gone through this when I've grown a couple of my companies. I've gone, it's actually more work to show someone how to do the work than it is just to do it myself. So I feel, I feel that it doesn't give us a name, but I, I feel this person's, um, this person's hurt. Leigh, how are we gonna deal with this?
Al ElliottI feel this is a common thing for managers as well. When you bring on, um, new people to your team, it can feel like so much effort to have to show them. Or coach them to get to the right answer rather than just give it to them. I think the thing is, as you, as you'll know, Al, as your business continues to scale, you doing it yourself just becomes unreasonable or unmanageable. It gets to a point where you're going to break. So, in terms of, of handling it in a way that is gonna really feel like you'll, you'll want people to take things off your plate, I would spend a week tracking the time you take doing stuff, whether you use Toggl, whether you make rough notes in your diary, you write it down. Things, everything you do, whether it be speaking to clients, whether it be admin tasks, talking to your accountant, whether it be product development, everything you do, write it down. Then reflect on that after a week and look at the percentage of things you're doing that are below your pay grade, that really the MD of a company should not be doing, or the tasks that are taking up so much of your time that aren't contributing to you growing your business, or the tasks that you hate to do, you loathe doing. Those are the tasks that are worth prioritising in terms of passing off to somebody else. And more than likely, the majority of those tasks won't be things you wouldn't fully— or you wouldn't trust somebody else to do, because they are going to be the admin things, or they're going to be the more transactional elements of your job. Or they're gonna be things, if you hate them, more than likely they don't feed into your, or lean into your skillset very naturally. So you're having to stretch yourself uncomfortably. For me, that's around detail. I really struggle proofreading, for example. I struggle. I really struggle. When I had to do that part of my job, I would, you know, when you can get the computer to read it out to you?
Al ElliottYes.
Al ElliottI'd have to do that too.
Al ElliottThat's a great tip though.
Al ElliottYeah, it is. But it's time intensive 'cause it takes a lot longer to listen to somebody read it out than just to read it. yourself. So, it probably doubled my task time as somebody who's got that, um, that skill set to, and that attention to detail. So, there's gonna be things like that that you'll want to pass on happily. What you're basically gonna do then is figure out the tasks that you need somebody else to do, and then you'll be able to answer your other questions. Do you outsource it? It could be a software that you need. It could be a process that you need. It could be a person. It could be an agency. It could be multiple people. It's going to give you an idea of what you need. And then what I want you to do is do a journaling exercise for me, which I know most MDs go, oh, I don't want to do that. I know, but bear with me. All right. So once you've, you've created this list and particularly things that you hate to do and you don't want to spend time doing, I want you to reflect on what could you be doing? What would your life look like if you didn't have to do those things? Where would your business be? How would your energy levels be feeling? How fulfilled would you be in your work? How much further on do you think your business would be? And really kind of feel this wonderful space that you'll be in once you've started to hand these tasks over to other people. This really is as much as you've said, you know, without giving up, um, giving up any control or, or loss of quality. This is much a psychological process of giving up your baby that you've built.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottAnd trusting somebody else to, to do that for you. You need to really coach yourself on how wonderful it's going to be to free up your energy, to free up your time, to free up your creativity, to focus on the things you really need to, to build your business. That would be my advice before you even think about hiring somebody, is to actually go through, go through that exercise to see what it is exactly that you need. Um, and then we've talked loads before about job analysis and all that type of thing in terms of recruitment. That would be your next step. But I think that's the first thing is to figure out what you wanna hand over, what your life will look like when it is, and really get excited about that.
Al ElliottYeah. And I think that probably from a business owner's point of view, there is a sort of a psychological danger here that you feel that if you do hand over your baby or you do hand over your tasks, then, um, one, you might not be needed anymore. And if you've built a business to say 15, 20 employees, then you've always been needed. And, and so there's, that becomes part of your nature is you need to be needed. And the second thing is possibly a fear of going, well, what actually am I gonna do with my day? There's also a guy called Aaron Fletcher who I followed, um, quite a while ago, and he talks about this framework, delegate, automate, kill. And he is like, any task you are doing, the idea is that you can, first of all, can you delegate it? If you can't delegate it, can you automate it? If you can't automate it, just kill it. Just stop doing it. And you know what's so weird as a business owner when you just stop doing things? I know what I, I went through a period now where I just don't reply to emails. 'Cause if it's important, they'll email again. And that really annoys Leanne, uh, because some of the emails are hers. Uh, but, um, but I was just like, I was spending too much time on my emails and it's just sucking my energy. And I'm like, no, no, if it's important, they'll email again. Not suggesting that you do that in real life. Anyway, Leanne, are you ready for question number 2?
Al ElliottYes.
Al ElliottThis one's a bit of a sad one. What do you do when you know you have to let someone go even though they're trying their best to stay? So this person writes, I've got an employee who was put on a PIP. That stands for Performance Improvement Plan. See, check me out. A little while ago. To her credit, she didn't give up. She's been working really hard, taking feedback seriously, improving a bit by bit. I genuinely believe she'll complete the PIP successfully, but I've also been told we need to make a cut in the team, and whether I go by performance or seniority, she's the one who's gonna have to go regardless. It feels awful. She's giving 110%, believing that effort will save her job. Oh, this is sad. And I already know it won't. I have to congratulate her for improving, then let her go anyway. I know this is part of being a manager, but how do you do it without feeling like you've betrayed someone who did everything right? This person's like, this was the person who wrote in, sounds like they really care.
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah. This is, this is so, so brutal, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo unfortunate. I think my one question is, you've been told that you're gonna have to let somebody go. You haven't mentioned the time period between this, but it sounds like it's quite short. I'd wanna treat this as 2 very different things, right? Because what this person is potentially gonna absorb and internalize is that they're not good enough because they were put on a PIP, they gave 110%, they still weren't good enough, and they lost their job. This isn't what's happening here. What's happening here is that they've been put on a PIP. You've worked with them as a brilliant manager does. She's given 110%, that to the point where she'll complete the PIP successfully. Congratulations, well done, you're ace, we did it together, wonderful. That has to be a separate thing in conversation to, unfortunately, the business having to make cuts and your role has been identified as, as being laid off. Because the distinction is, you are good enough to do this role. You've proved that. Sadly, this role is no longer available. You know, it's not about you. You're not being made redundant as a person, as a professional. The role is being made redundant. Yeah. And I think if you've got a little bit of time between this, hopefully a couple of weeks, maybe a month would be even better. Yes, it is going to be emotional roller coaster for her because she's gone through this stress and worry of will she lose her job, to then retaining her job, to then inevitably losing her job through a layoff. But the confidence she is going to internalise knowing that she puts the effort in, she can improve, she is coachable, she passed the PIP. It's so important to help her understand, and as you say, congratulate her for. The other conversation needs to be a separate one. Of course, there are lots of things here in terms of, does the organisation really need to make this layoff? And you might want to go back with this little statistic that an organisation that makes a 1% layoff, so even one person, will see typically a 30% voluntary turnover rate in the following 12 months.
Al ElliottWow.
Al ElliottSo, that means that 3 other members of your team are likely to leave because the organisation feels unstable. They don't have that job security, so they'll start looking elsewhere. So, really, for the sake of one person, you've got to ask if there's another way, if there's another way to save money, if there's another way to reduce costs, because actually the longer-term impact on the organisation is going to be quite detrimental compared to just trying to figure out a way to keep hold of this person. So, I think that's— it's really tough, but I think that's the key thing to think about here is that they're 2 separate activities that need to be handled in 2 separate ways. And you're absolutely right to congratulate her for improving. You should celebrate that. And it's a different conversation as to why that job is. And you know what, I would maybe say that's a point of negotiation for your senior manager to try and negotiate a time period between these 2 things happening, just to help her internalise the achievement and also hopefully give the organisation some time to think about whether they really need to do this, because it is really—
Al ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottreally detrimental. Final word I will say on it is there are still things that you can do even if she is made redundant to help her move forward. And that is things like checking in with your network to see if any jobs are available, offering her stellar references, getting her coaching support for her CV and her LinkedIn profile and all that type of thing called outsourcing. That is really going to help and give her the confidence that you believe in her so much that you're going to people you know in your network and recommending her as an employee. And that again is going to help to internalise achievement of successfully completing her PIP. So, yeah, I hope that helps in a way. It's a horrible situation, but handle them separately, celebrate the win, manage the loss as empathetically and as practically supportive as you can, and have a conversation with somebody in senior management and just say, really, is this really what we want to do right now?
Al ElliottFabulous advice. And I'm glad you said that at the end because my thought was straight away, do I want to be Warning this person, her, now, um, that this might be coming. Uh, and, and from what you're saying is no, try and negotiate it so that she can— significant, so she can finish the PIP. You can congratulate her for that. And then you got a little bit of time before you have to start talking about the, the role being— that was a really, really interesting definition there. You're saying the role has been made redundant, not you. And that's probably something very, very important that I hope everyone picks up on. Okay, Leigh, I've got question number 3. How do you— this is such a common question, I think. Yeah. How do you keep great people when you can't compete on pay? Uh, I'm finding it's harder and harder to hold onto good people. It's not that they are unhappy. In fact, most people say they enjoy working for my small business, but I've lost a couple of brilliant team members recently to bigger companies that can offer more money, better perks, and clearer career paths. We're doing what we can. We've got flexible hours, we've got decent benefits, we've got great culture, but in a competitive market, it doesn't seem to be enough. Have you seen anything that actually works when it comes to retention, especially for small businesses like mine that can't throw money at the problem? I have something to say about this because Go on. No, no, no, you go first.
Al ElliottNo, no, you go first.
Al ElliottWe've got an interview this Thursday coming out with Josh Levine, and he talked exactly about this. And in fact, he interviewed someone called Gary Ridge, who was the CEO for a long time of WD-40, you know, those little cans of oil. And he talks exactly about this. He says that if you invest in people and you genuinely care about them, they ain't going down the street for a 20% bump because why would they? So anyway, that— so if you— if this tickles your pickle, this question, definitely listen to this Thursday's episode with Uh, Josh Levine, because you'll learn all about that. Leanne, I took over your bit there, sorry.
Al ElliottNot at all, not at all. Great, great addition. And yes, definitely check out the interview with Josh on Thursday. There are a few things that absolutely, if people feel valued, they're not going to jump as easily. Equally, we've got— I think there's an element of we need to be a bit realistic as, as small business owners right now, in that the economy is a bit pants. People, cost of living is still raging on. House prices are going up, people don't have as much money. There's a sense of urgency to, to try and get some control on it before it completely spirals. So, there is going to be an element of people will look for more money if that's what they need to, to not even live the flashy life that they want, just to pay the bills and put food on the table, particularly if they have a family. There's going to be an element of, in a competitive market, big companies are just going to win over things like salary. And benefits, but where they won't win in the long term is around the heart and the value and the recognition and the flexibility that you can offer people. And I think there's a really— there's a couple of really good opportunities here in terms of the people that you want to recruit. So, I was talking to somebody the other day who is an MD who prioritised roles within their business as part-time, so they'd hire more people, but on a part-time basis.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo, they could give good working opportunities to people who had just had a baby and were returning to work. So, they didn't want the full-time workload, but wanted to feel something like they're doing something work-wise, something beyond being mum or being dad. They found that they have huge numbers of applications, a very high retention rate, because they're offering work that specifically suits somebody or candidates that are typically underserved within the job market. That's going to be the same with people with disabilities, people with chronic health conditions. Neurodiverse people would probably benefit in some ways from part-time and more flexible work. So, it could be that you need to get a bit more innovative in the roles that you offer. One really simple thing, go to a 4-day workweek. I guarantee you, my friend, keep pay the same, 4-day workweek. I'm not even sure the big companies would be able to—
Al ElliottNo, no.
Al ElliottTo outcompete with you there. Again, you want to talk to our friends over at Curve Group, who not only have a reduced working week, but help clients to do it. Finally, I would say from the clients that we've worked with who do go through this, because we, we work with small businesses, clear career paths is probably one of the most valuable things that you can really think about, because people will stay in your organisation for so long if they feel well recognised, they feel supported, they love the people they work with, they've got the flexibility, but if they can't see a career path and they're an ambitious person, they just want to get to the, you know, the goal that they've set themselves for their career in the short and long term, there will come a point where their time with you in your organisation just is going to come to an end because you can't fulfil that career need. That said, there are a lot of small businesses that actually can fulfil that career need, but just don't talk about it. And I talk about how to do it, whether it be to do secondments within clients' organisations or sabbaticals. It might be that you offer somebody 6 months to go and work with another business owner that you know of who can offer more stretch opportunities. It might even be that you go, I completely understand that's what you want to do. The best of luck to you. I hope we see you again someday. I hope you come back once you've got that.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottthat experience. So, I think that's probably the key things that you can do. But I think, yeah, in terms of career development, that's something that's really actually quite practical that you can probably dig into a little bit more, because especially in your question, you said that bigger companies can offer clearer career paths. I think there's probably some work that you can do around that in terms of understanding the career opportunities that could be available in your smaller business.
Al ElliottYeah, excellent advice. I would also say from a business point of view, if you can't pay people more, then if you were to make more profit, you could. So, and perhaps get everyone around and say, right, we've got a target. So we are now going to try and increase our margins by X or our sales by Y. And what we'll do is we will just prorate that on everyone's salary. Um, and then perhaps give another bonus or perhaps run that every, you know, every year we've got our sort of like our, our, our profit sharing project or something, which, um, which then people would be able to generate more income anyway.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLeanne, anything else to add before we say goodbye?
Al ElliottOnly thing I'd add is the, probably the last thing you want to do is actually ask people what, what would entice them to stay. Because they might say it's a career path. They might say it's perks, actually. And you've, you've, you know, you could do more in there. It might not be about the money. It could be something else. So just check in actually that, that you are giving your people everything that they need. And if you haven't trained your managers, I'd suggest you do that too.
Al ElliottOkay. So we're back on Thursday with Josh Levine, as we talked about, a future work, a work futurist, I think he calls himself.
Al ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah, interesting guy. He's got loads of comms, loads of thoughts on culture, leadership, values, and also that great story about Gary Ridge from the WD-40. We're trying to get Gary on the pod. So if you're listening and you know who Gary is, Gary, if you're listening, drop us an email. I will answer that email. So we'll see you on Thursday for that episode, episode with Josh Levine. We'll see you next Tuesday for another This Week in Work, the Truth and Lie, and also the World Famous Weekly Word episode. You wrap up your questions, Leanne. Leanne, do you want to say anything else before we go?
Al ElliottSubscribe, follow, LinkedIn for the convos.
Al ElliottBye! Bye-bye!