Truth, Lies & Work

Episode 240 · 14 October 2025 · 47:11

Starbucks’ CEO fail, toxic superstars and Dubai’s Wolf of Wall Street? PLUS! Is Maslow's hierarchy a myth?

Starbucks’ CEO fail, toxic superstars and Dubai’s Wolf of Wall Street? PLUS! Is Maslow's hierarchy a myth?

0:000:00

Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.

Enjoying the show? Subscribe for free

SpotifyFollow on SpotifyApple PodcastsSubscribe on AppleAmazon MusicListen on AmazonYouTubeWatch on YouTubeAnother appSee all platforms →

Chapters & timestamps

Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.

  1. Intro and news roundup kickoff

    news roundup#news#workplace#podcast

  2. Story 1: Breadcrumbing at work

    news roundup#breadcrumbing#workplace#relationships

  3. Story 2: Starbucks' fabricated empathy problem

    news roundup#starbucks#empathy#customer-service

  4. Story 3: The Dubai sales machine

    news roundup#sales#dubai#cold-calling

  5. Truth or Lie: Is Maslow's hierarchy a myth?

    truth or lie#maslow#hierarchy#motivation

  6. Workplace Surgery: Toxic superstars

    workplace surgery#toxic-employees#management#workplace-culture

  7. Workplace Surgery: Keeping remote teams connected

    workplace surgery#remote-work#team-connection#communication

  8. Workplace Surgery: Founder wellbeing

    workplace surgery#founder-wellbeing#burnout#self-care

Show notes

Starbucks' CEO Fail, Toxic Superstars & Dubai's Wolf of Wall Street? PLUS! Is Maslow's Hierarchy a Myth?

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why Starbucks' new "fabricated empathy" policy is a leadership failure, whether a £24k salary and 100 calls a day is "resilience" or exploitation, and the new HR buzzword everyone's talking about: breadcrumbing. Plus, in Truth or Lie: is Maslow's hierarchy of needs actually true?

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Breadcrumbing at work A new HR buzzword has arrived. Originally a dating term, "breadcrumbing" describes when managers hint at promotions, raises, or development opportunities but never follow through. In a shaky economy where pay rises and mobility are stalling, leaders may be tempted to keep talent with vague promises — but the psychology shows this kills trust and motivation. Leanne's advice? Try stretch projects and job crafting instead. Source →

2. Starbucks' "fabricated empathy" problem New CEO Brian Niccol's "Back to Starbucks" plan mandates scripted customer interactions — eye contact, cup messages, four-minute service times — alongside tighter dress codes and reduced remote work. The goal: revive sales. The risk: forcing fake connection and alienating both staff and customers. Minda Zetlin's take? Most human beings are good at recognizing when they're being manipulated — and this is a failure of leadership. Source →

3. The Dubai sales machine Would you make 100 calls a day for £24,000 a year? A London firm is hiring trainee wealth managers in Dubai with brutal daily quotas and little base pay. They call it "resilience." Al and Leanne break down why high pressure without autonomy or purpose can wreck motivation — and why at least this firm is being explicit about what they're offering. Source →

🧠 Truth or Lie: Is Maslow's Hierarchy a Myth?

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is on every business school slide, but is it actually true? Leanne digs into the real history — including the fact that Maslow never drew a pyramid, the missing "sixth level" he added later, and what modern psychology actually says about human motivation. Spoiler: the research doesn't support the rigid step-by-step progression we've all been taught.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

  1. Toxic superstar: "What do you do when your top performer is destroying team morale?"
  2. Remote connection: "How can you keep remote teams genuinely connected?"
  3. Founder wellbeing: "How do founders protect their wellbeing when the business never switches off?"

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

📬 Connect with Al & Leanne

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottWould you make 100 phone calls a day for £24,000 a year? Well, a London firm is hiring salespeople in Dubai with brutal targets and barely any base pay. They call it resilience, but what does the psychology say about high pressure without support?
Al ElliottAlso this week, Starbucks wants staff to make eye contact, write personal messages on cups, and finish every order in 4 minutes. Sounds friendly, but employees say it feels fake. Can you mandate genuine connection, or does that defeat the whole point?
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. This famous pyramid is taught in every business school and stuck on every training slide, but does it actually explain how human motivation works?
Al ElliottPlus, in the Workplace Surgery, would you fire your best employee if they were destroying team morale? One business owner says they're torn between performance and team culture. This is Truth, Lies and Work.
Leanne Elliottaward-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, and I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo let's get right into it after this very quick word from our lovely sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. It's Leanne's favorite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup. We did find out the other week that your favorite time of the week is actually a gin on gin and tonic on a Friday. So this is your second favorite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. Cue the jingle out.
Al ElliottLeanne, what have you seen on the tinterwebs this week?
Leanne ElliottI've got a new word.
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne ElliottBreadcrumbing.
Al ElliottIf you've not listened to this before, I try and guess what it is. So breadcrumbing, Hansel and Gretel, they dropped breadcrumbs. So breadcrumbing is a trail back to something else. So Possibly breadcrumbing is following back to your original culture.
Leanne ElliottNo, but follow that through in terms of they're following the breadcrumbs and what happens to Hansel and Gretel?
Al ElliottThey go in the oven.
Leanne ElliottThings don't end well.
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottIt's similar.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo this, I think, has been, I believe, picked up from the dating world.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd then reapplied to the business world. So in the dating world, it means that someone strings you along just enough that they hold your attention but never really commits.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo in the workplace, this has been basically applied to mean when a manager or an organisation hints at promotions, raises, and opportunities but never actually follows through. Um, so they basically, they're leaving a small crumb trail to string you along.
Al ElliottYeah, a bit like I did when we first started dating.
Leanne ElliottYeah, you absolutely did breadcrumb me.
Al ElliottI did. I'm an awful human being.
Leanne ElliottYeah, you did.
Al ElliottBut you stuck with it and we're together now. And look, now we're, we're world famous podcasters, broadcasters. Anyway, so, so this is a bad thing, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt's not good. So this is an article. Where did I see it? CanGrade? Is that how you say it? CanGrade.
Al ElliottCool. Why not?
Leanne ElliottSo they said that you might hear things like someone's breadcrumbing you. You might hear things like, we're thinking about moving you into leadership. We're just thinking about it.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottWe need to finalise the budget. We've all heard that one. Next quarter, we'll revisit your development plan. But then nothing, no structure, no timeline, no meaningful progress. And it is quite relevant now because we are seeing signs of this, aren't we? We're seeing pay growth slowing down. We're seeing that internal mobility shrink with lots of these organisations going for flatter structures, and the job markets are still a bit shaky. The one thing that we know though, we're not wired to wait forever.
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottSo in terms of behavioural science, it shows that we're motivated by progress. We're gonna talk about motivation a bit later on as well with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, aren't we? But what we know is that even small wins are good. It's that progress that feels like we're getting somewhere. But if that progress is promised, not delivered, then we lose trust and that impacts our motivation. That goes down and then engagement Turns into resentment. So yeah, that is breadcrumbing. Our thoughts.
Al ElliottNow I can see from a kind of like a leadership or business owner point of view, you do wanna keep your good people around. You may not be able to follow through, but I would be tempted to not breadcrumb, but maybe say, look, look, I'm gonna be really honest with you. I've got nothing I, nothing I can do over the next sort of like 6 months, but I really want you to, to be the next manager. I'm not promising anything, but can we work towards it? And if it comes off, then you'll be the first in line. Is that fair or is that still breadcrumbing?
Leanne ElliottI think that's fair, and I think that's the only thing you can do if you're an organisation where budgets are limited or opportunities aren't there right now. I think, like you said, it's being honest and being transparent, and people will respect that. And it might not necessarily change their mind to leave, but it's certainly going to make them motivated and performing until they do. I mean, there are other things that you could do if you're not able to offer that Promotion, working on extra projects, stretch projects, job crafting.
Al ElliottWhat's a stretch project?
Leanne ElliottSo a stretch project is, say, oh, so say in terms of I wanted to really get some experience in organisational change at a huge organisation, I might go and work alongside a psychologist in Microsoft, right, for certain periods of the week to get an idea of what that looks like, right? So it's a stretch in terms of it's not beyond my capability, but it's stretching my capability in terms of multinational global level Microsoft chain.
Al ElliottYou go meet Bill.
Leanne ElliottExactly, me and Bill have a cup of tea. Another thing you could do is job crafting. Job crafting is actually really effective in terms of motivation and professional development. It's basically when you say to somebody, what's the best parts of your job? What would you like to be doing more of? And help and allowing that person to go, do you know what, I really enjoy podcasting, so I would like to launch the business podcast for the company. So yeah, there's other things that you can do, but bottom line is, I think if you're just being deceitful, manipulative, people aren't gonna buy it for too long, and they'll lose trust, and they'll lose motivation, and they'll leave.
Al ElliottI think that covers all of leadership, doesn't it? And management and business ownership. If you, if you, if you tell lies, you'll get found out. There's a story about the Pied Piper of Hamelin, and my dad used to read it to me at night. And he read it over and over and over again. And at the end he said, and promises once made should always be kept. And he looked me right in the eye when he said that. And I think now from that point forward, any promise I make, I'll only make a promise if I can keep it. I think now because I keep seeing my dad's eyes going, I will find you and I will kick your ass. Anyway.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, there you go. Life lesson from Brian Elliott there. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottWell, I was on Twitter. There's a woman called Minda Zetlin. Originally, I think I saw this in Inc.com, but I did a bit of digging. She writes for everything. She's pretty incredible. We have to get her on the pod because she's like, oh, she's a columnist for Inc. She's a columnist for this, columnist for that. Also lives in a place called Snohomish in WA. What's that? Is that Washington? So it's a made-up place. Or it's from Lord of the Rings. I'm not sure. Maybe she lives in Lord of the Rings. But anyway, that's not what I want to talk about.
Leanne ElliottWhat do you want to talk about?
Al ElliottShe did an article about the CEO of Starbucks, a brand new CEO called Brian Niccol, and he has created guidelines for staff. Starbucks has seen about 6 consecutive quarters of sales declines. So Brian came in and he introduced a raft of new policies to reverse this. So part of this is called the Green Apron Service. It's all part of this what he calls Back to Starbucks plan. I'd like to make a joke about Brian Niccol and nickel and diming, but I won't. So the Green Apron Service is all about stricter dress codes, restriction on body piercings, But also the interaction you have with your barista— I always get that wrong, not barrister, barista— is actually quite tightly scripted. I'll read from the article. It says they're told to pause for a second to make eye contact. Don't rush the moment. This is according to The Wall Street Journal, who's reviewed the manual. You're also supposed to greet a customer by name if you can and make eye contact when you take the order. And then finally, you're supposed to write something meaningful on the cup. Now someone does report they were fired for not doing this. Then eye contact again when handing drink over. Oh, and you've got to keep all this down to less than 4 minutes because people are leaving because Starbucks was taking too long. There is lots of backlash. Employees are saying this is what they call fabricated empathy, and they're supposed to do all these new things and reduce this time to process a customer. The eye contact— someone may come up with a good point. In fact, I think it might have been the author Minda, Minda Zetlin.
Leanne ElliottMinda Zetlin.
Al ElliottWith a good point, saying that neurodivergent staff or those uncomfortable with eye contact might find that a little bit difficult. Feels like this could backfire. I mean, I understand why they're trying to do it. I think they're trying to make Starbucks a little less corporate and more like your sort of family-run coffeehouse. But again, this idea of fabrication is what is— is where I think it might be going wrong. What are your thoughts, Lee?
Leanne ElliottWhat did they call it? Green Apron?
Al ElliottGreen Apron Service.
Leanne ElliottSee, now I enjoy that because it's giving— it's an iconic thing, isn't it? It's like a cultural landmark, that green apron that people can connect with. And I think the step that they've missed is— because I can only assume that this has come directly from, from the leadership team without any employee consultation because of the backlash.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIs that why wouldn't you, as a new CEO, bring people into that conversation? I'm new here.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWhat does it mean to you, this Green Apron service? What do you miss? What have we— what's got lost in Starbucks? What do you wanna go back to? And then creating what that means in terms of a philosophy or, or values or, um, desired behaviours is then gonna be much more acceptable because people have been involved in that change. They've been consulted. What does Green Apron service mean to you? What do we want it to mean for us moving forwards? So I think that's, that's problematic, assuming that there wasn't any employee consultation, or by the sounds of it, it wasn't done very widely or very well. The other thing is Starbucks has had a bit of scandal the last, last 2 years or so, hasn't it?
Al ElliottWhat, with the tax, or—
Leanne ElliottOh, well, yeah, and then they had accusations, didn't they, of like union busting within the workforce. There's been lawsuits for unfair dismissal. There's been talk about potential child labour within the supply chain. There's a lot been happening. And then we've had the CEO move on, didn't we? So I think it's, it's a time of transformation. So I understand the sense of urgency for the new CEO, but often, what's it called? More— what was it? What's it?
Al ElliottI don't know what you're saying.
Leanne ElliottMore speed, less taste.
Al ElliottLess haste, no, less haste, more speed. No, the other way.
Leanne ElliottYou, you know what I'm talking about.
Al ElliottYeah. More haste, less speed.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat's it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWell, you say the new, the new CEO should have come in and probably should have done consultation. What this new CEO, Brian Nichols, has been busy doing is, um, the first policy change was to reduce remote working to 1 day a week. I'm guessing this is not—
Leanne ElliottOh, what's his name?
Al ElliottBrian Nichols.
Leanne ElliottBrian.
Al ElliottCome on, Brian. Um, unless you're a senior leader, in which case being in the office is mandatory. Yet Brian runs this Seattle-based head office from his place in California where it's much nicer weather.
Leanne ElliottOh, Brian's cancelled. Brian's cancelled. And he wonders why this didn't go down well.
Al ElliottWell, exactly, exactly. The author Minda Zetlin sums it up like this: most human beings are good at recognizing one another's emotions. If a Starbucks employee looks you in the eye, smiles, and writes something cheery on your cup while they're seething with fury on the inside, chances are you will pick up on that.
Leanne ElliottYes, I'll be honest, as I do enjoy Starbucks, it's probably my coffee chain of choice, truth be told, which might get me cancelled.
Al ElliottYeah, maybe.
Leanne ElliottI would quite enjoy it if, now knowing this, I was going into Starbucks and they were writing quite salty messages on it, like, save me, or, um, I don't know, we'll dance for tips.
Al ElliottI had to take my nose ring out for this job. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, um, We're all cancelled. We'll join Brian in the hole.
Al ElliottWhat else have you seen this week, love?
Leanne ElliottWould you make 100 calls a day for £24,000 a year?
Al ElliottI kind of did.
Leanne ElliottYeah?
Al ElliottYeah. One of my first jobs was selling advertising over the phone, and I used to make 100 marks on the piece of paper and dial 100 times. Anyway, sorry, that's about me. This is not about me.
Leanne ElliottSo you're saying yes?
Al ElliottI'm saying I wouldn't do it now. Thank you, HubSpot, for giving us a different source of income. But when I was a kid, I did do it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, I think that—
Al ElliottDoes that totally take the wind out of all of this sales?
Leanne ElliottNo, no, it doesn't. It's like, it's an entry-level expectation, isn't it? I went into sales as well, and I was more inbound than outbound, but I, I still would take more than 100 calls a day for sure. Free advertising space. Fun times in a newspaper aisle. Do the kids even know what a newspaper is?
Al ElliottBack to the article. 100, 100 calls, 24 grand.
Leanne ElliottYes, this was reported by The Telegraph. Um, and it's about Woxton Wealth, a London-based financial planning firm with offices around the world, including sunny Dubai. So according to the report, Woxton's trainee wealth managers in Dubai are expected to make at least 100 phone calls a day. The advert, which describes the role as not for the faint-hearted, says candidates must show exceptional resilience and a strong work ethic to succeed. What do we know? That we know the phone is— The phone is the job. It's phone-based for the first 2 years, and the targets are explicit: 100 calls a day, at least one confirmed booking every day, 5 hours of talk time, and 5 meetings secured each week. In return, trainees receive a starting salary of £24,000, rising to just under £29,000 by year 3, plus a 5% commission on any sales they make. The advert also promises visas and medical coverage, which are mandatory for Dubai residents, Though it sounds like they had to. PLUS! makes clear that success depends on stamina. It's framed as an opportunity for people with a competitive spirit who can thrive in a high-pressure environment.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottOh, it's all sounding very Wolf of Wall Street at this point, isn't it?
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottSo the practice of aggressive calling, um, the article goes on to mention, has been heavily restricted in recent years. So cold calling financial products is actually banned in the UK, um, after a crackdown by the Financial Conduct Authority in 2023. And similar rules in Dubai limit calls to between 9 AM and 6 PM. Hoxton has insisted its trainees comply with both sets of rules, saying the people contacted have already expressed interest in the company's services, meaning they're not technically cold calls. But how many times do you express interest in something? You're like, did I? Did I? I don't know, tick a box somewhere on a form? Um, anyway, for more context, I guess, because this is an entry-level position, so it might sound a little bit measly in terms of the work-to-pay ratio. But for context, Hoxton Wealth manages— it's huge. So you'd imagine the senior employees get paid a lot because they manage £2.5 billion in assets and have more than 10,000 clients across 9 offices worldwide. Um, so what do we think, Al? Is this fair for an entry-level position? Is it a bit— is it a bit bro? Is it a bit Wolf of Wall Street?
Al ElliottThoughts? I think, oh, yes to all of those things. And we can sit here in our, um, in our, in our podcasting ivory tower and go, well, you know, things should be better. However, sales is the best, in my opinion. Sales is the best thing you can do, um, to, to get yourself grounded for any kind of business. Now, if you wanna be like, I don't know, a feng shui, um, uh, consultant, actually even then you need sales cuz you need to sell your stuff.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo I think I think it's, you know how some countries do mandatory military service, but what do they call it? There's a special name for it. Conscription. I can't remember. Well, I think that everyone should do mandatory one, one year of sales, phone sales, hard phone sales. I did door-to-door sales. That was brutal, man. Brutal. But I also did see some very, very strange things. So, so I think that should be mandatory.
Leanne ElliottSorry, you're gonna have to— what strange things did you see?
Al ElliottOh, well, there was a couple quite, quite openly Enjoying intercourse in the window.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottI knocked on the door, they looked up and kind of, and he kind of looked at me and said, give me a minute, I'll be there in a second. I also ended up sitting in, in a tiny one-bedroom terrace in Halifax. This is Nova Scotia. This isn't Nova Scotia. This isn't Yorkshire. In Halifax with 8 Rottweilers. And they were the softest things in the world. And that's what made me get our first Rottie.
Leanne ElliottAww.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBecause they were the loveliest dogs in the world. Anyway, that's not the point. So sales, I think sales is a really good base for everything and anything, whatever, whatever your job is, there's a good chance there's a selling element to it. Also, they're not telling people they have to do this. This is a choice. So you always say job design, role design, role, you know, clarity. They're being quite clear about what it is.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottThey're not saying, come and work in our fast-paced environment where you are gonna really enjoy the camaraderie. They're going, you are gonna work like a dog, man. That was a UAE accent. I don't even know what accent that was. Oh my goodness.
Leanne ElliottI wonder how many times we get cancelled in this one episode.
Al ElliottI know, I know. So bottom line for me, cool, crack on. Yeah, because you're not making people doing it and you're actually being really explicit. So you're saying this is the job, do you want it or not? And so, yeah, anyway.
Leanne ElliottI agree with you. I think they're being very explicit. It's— they're being very clear on what they want. We all know what this role is. We've all seen this role. Some of us have done this role. It is what it is. They, they're, they're a firm that goes for the approach of we want people to burn bright and burn fast.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottVery few people are gonna stay in this, this type of environment for the entirety of their career. The majority of people probably do it until they're 30 and then, and then tap out and go and do something else cuz they made their money. So I think I think, yeah, it is, it is what it is. And jobs like this exist because we live in a capitalist society where money makes the world go round. I can go into the psychology of it, but I think it's no real mystery that if you don't have that purpose in your role, if you don't have that autonomy, if you're not given diverse things to do, it is gonna hit your motivation levels. It is gonna feel hard. Managing by outcomes is good, but If it's not connected to a bigger purpose, then it's not really gonna keep us going. We know it's gonna be stressful, tiring, tunnel vision, competitive, could bring in a lot of toxicity. Who knows? I don't, I don't think anyone is that surprised by what, what the psychology of this will, will lead to over time. Probably toxic work environments, burnout, high turnover. But I think that's the point of what Hoxton is going for.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut anyway, I agree that they're chasing what they will call A-players. They've defined what they think an A-player is, and I'm sure in an organisation of that size, of that much under management, $2.5 billion assets, I'd imagine once you get out of your training, you can start to earn some decent money. And what we also don't know as well, to be fair, is they earn 5% commission on any sale that they make. That could add up to lots and lots and lots.
Al ElliottAbsolutely.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's what it is, is what I'd say on that.
Al ElliottI agree. If you're listening to this and you want, you want, there's 2 movie recommendations I've got for you. The Wolf of Wall Street, Leanne's already mentioned, and Pursuit of Happiness. And both of those are positioned as someone who is willing— now, Wolf of Wall Street goes off in a different direction to Pursuit of Happiness with Will Smith, but both those people who are willing to work from the bottom up and they were successful. And like, if you want to be in wealth management and you want to earn, you know, 200 £50,000 a year, then perhaps this is the way you start. And to be honest, probably a lot of people at the top did start off on this anyway. Lee, anything else to add before we go to our lovely break? No. Okay, so after the break we've got Truth or Lie. This is our new segment where I ask Leanne, is something true or is something a lie? Bang on brand. And we've got our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Don't go anywhere, see you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's Us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of policy. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. It is time for Truth or Lie. Here's our new jingle. Is it a truth? Is it a lie? Is it a truth? Truth is a lie.
Leanne ElliottI've not heard that.
Al ElliottWow. I'll be honest, I hadn't heard it until it actually came out of my mouth. I didn't even know it existed.
Leanne ElliottYeah. At least it goes on some kind of approval process that way. Yeah.
Al ElliottAnd maybe, maybe we just get someone else in to do the vocals, perhaps.
Leanne ElliottMaybe.
Al ElliottBut lovely melody.
Leanne ElliottThank you very, very much.
Al ElliottThis is our weekly myth-busting segment, segment where we take those psychological claims you see everywhere and ask, does the evidence actually back this up? So we've recently done left-handed people. We haven't done left-handed people. We've, we've talked about left-handed people. Are they more creative? Uh, we've looked at whether tall people are really, are more successful at work. Did we do one other? No, this may be our week 3.
Leanne ElliottI think this is maybe our 3rd one.
Al ElliottSo this week's truth or lie, does Maslow's famous pyramid of needs accurately explain what motivates us? And do we really need to satisfy our basic needs before we can pursue things like self-esteem and reaching our full potential? You can tell I'm reading from a piece of paper here. Basically, is Maslow correct? Is it a load of rubbish? What's your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottMaslow's hierarchy of needs. It's that famous pyramid. You've all seen it. You all know what I'm talking about. You've done one training session on leadership. You've opened a textbook. Um, yeah, you would've seen it. It's 5 levels stacked up into a pyramid. So at the bottom you've got psychological needs like food. Uh, sorry, physiological needs like food and water. Then you've got safety and security, then love and belonging, then esteem and recognition, and finally self-actualization at the peak, which means basically becoming our best selves. It's simple, it's elegant, it's everywhere, and it's been taught in business schools and psychology departments since the 1950s. The core idea that goes with it, which is important to, to know as well, it's not just about the, the levels. The core idea is that you must satisfy each level before you can move up to the next. So you can't worry about making friends if you're hungry. You can't pursue your dreams if you don't feel safe.
Al ElliottFair enough.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yep. All seems intuitive and makes sense.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottHere is the first problem, Al. Abraham Maslow never drew a pyramid.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottNot once.
Al ElliottOkay. So where's the pyramid come from?
Leanne ElliottWell, when, when Maslow proposed this theory, it was in the 1940s, 1943. He described it in writing. There was an article. The pyramid was created 17 years later in 1960 by a business consultant called Charles McDermott for an article about motivating workers. So he uses a pyramid to help managers achieve maximum motivation at the lowest cost. It's a catchy visual, isn't it? It's memorable, it's perfect for training slides, and it stuck. So this is a version everyone learns, and it isn't even Maslow's original idea.
Al ElliottPoor Maslow.
Leanne ElliottSo in terms of what Maslow actually said, So he proposed that humans have 5 basic needs that are hardwired into us through evolution. So the key idea is that these needs work in order. So when you lack something, it motivates you to get it, but once you have it, it stops motivating you. So this means you focus on whatever need is currently unmet. So if you're hungry, that dominates your attention, but once you're fed, you can move on to worrying about safety. Once you feel safe, you can focus on making friends. And so on up the ladder. So yeah, basically you can't focus on gaining respect and recognition if you're worried about where your next meal is coming from. That's the core logic of the theory.
Al ElliottYou have questions? Can I, can I? I have not a question, but just, I wanna go back to that Pursuit of Happiness because if you watch that film, it actually goes through those levels. It's quite interesting. Yeah. Today's episode's brought to you by the Pursuit of Happiness movie.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's, I mean, it's inspired movies. It caught fire in the business world. It's been used in all sorts of ways. It's been used to design pay structures. recognition programmes, employee motivation strategies, and it is still taught as a foundational concept today. Second problem, Maslow himself knew this was an incomplete theory.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottSo in the original paper, he mentioned other needs like the desire to learn and appreciate beauty, but he didn't know where to put them. So he recognised that his list wasn't finished. So after 1943, Maslow's work split into 2 Into 2 paths. So one was very practical, working with businesses, and the other was much more philosophical. So he started studying people who seemed to have reached their full potential and asked what motivates them once they've achieved success. So once they've got this self-actualization.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd he found that they weren't driven by personal success anymore, but they were driven by bigger values. So trust, beauty, justice, making the world better. There's, there's nuance in there, as we've just said, with this 6th level, which never really got famous 'cause he only developed this about 2 years before he actually passed away. passed away, and it was published in a really obscure psychology journal that most people never read. So the 5-level pyramid became the standard version taught in schools, um, whilst only a handful of researchers knew about the 6th level. And I came across a really interesting story when I was looking into this from a psychologist named Hazel Skelsey Guest.
Al ElliottWhat a name.
Leanne ElliottI know. So she ran a weekend course on Maslow at Cambridge. She spent 90 minutes teaching about the 6th level. these transcendent values beyond self-interest. When she marked the essays, some students had still drawn the hierarchy with only 5 levels.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottOf self-actualization at the top.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd when she looked into it, it's basically that was all the students with a background in business and management. They just couldn't accept that there was a 6th level because they'd always known it as 5. Whereas the psychology students were a little bit more open to, as we tend to be, to things changing. So, the problem is that One, there's no pyramid. 2, the pyramid wasn't complete. And 3, Maslow himself said it wasn't, it wasn't a finished thing. It was a moving, living theory that was still developing. So problematic. So the next question is, has any of the research shown that Maslow's hierarchy of needs can be backed up?
Al ElliottRight. Okay.
Leanne ElliottCan be true. So in the '70s, 2 researchers reviewed every study that had tried to test Maslow's hierarchy, and their conclusion was that there's very little evidence supporting the idea that needs work in a rigid order.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo yes, we all have needs, but following it step by step in a progression doesn't really make sense. And it also, you know, you've gotta think that if I need to eat before I focus on being safe, if I've got a tiger running at me, I'm like, actually, I'm a bit hungry. I'll just finish my snack before, you know.
Al ElliottFinish your Frosties.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, exactly. It doesn't quite work. The other problem is that Maslow developed this theory on like the top 1% of exceptional achievers. So he studied people like Albert Einstein.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo how can you kind of have an all-encompassing theory of everybody about the human experience when you've only based it on extraordinary individuals? Then there's a cultural problem. It's a very Western theory. It's a very individualistic worldview, climbing towards that individual self-actualization and then going to those transcendent values. But in a lot of cultures, they're more collectivist. People prioritize community harmony, family obligations over individual achievement, which we absolutely see in Bosnia, don't we? Yeah. Um, so yeah, so it's all, it's all a bit difficult. And I think really what modern psychology is telling us is that human motivation is a lot messier. There are some things that Maslow got right in that we have 2 types of needs. So we have deficiency needs, things like hunger, safety, and belonging. They're driven by lacking. And then we have growth needs, things like learning, creativity. And the more you satisfy your growth needs, the more you want them. Whereas the more you satisfy your deficiency needs, you don't want it anymore.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So he got that right. Um, and there is some really interesting research that has been done with school children in poverty that have found that, that yes, if their basic needs are, are met better, then they'll perform better in, in school. So there is some truth there. Um, But there are better models, I think, now that kind of explain motivation. You've probably heard of some of them. Self-determination theory focuses on 3 basic psychological needs: autonomy, competence, and feeling connected to others. It's much more flexible as a model. So yeah, I think the problem is it's just not quite as robust as we want it to be. It's a theory, and it's always been a theory, and it was an incomplete theory. So truth or lie, the claim that Maslow's hierarchy of needs with self-actualization at the top of the pyramid, does that accurately describe human motivation? No. Yeah, it's a lie, or at best it's very dramatic oversimplification. And I think that's probably true of the majority of truth and lies we'll talk about on here. Some will be absolutely bobbin', some will be surprisingly true, like tall people are genuinely more successful. And others are going to be somewhere in the middle where it's based on truth, but it's just been stretched to a point where it doesn't quite explain the complexity of, of humans and the gloriousness of all that messiness. So yeah, I'm sorry, Maslow, it's not true.
Al ElliottWell, talking of glorious messiness of human nature, which is a beautiful turn of phrase, by the way, it's time for our world-famous weekly work— work— surgery. Oh no, it's time for our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Uh, you should know by now, Leanne's a chartered occupational psychologist. She knows everything. She, even though she says she doesn't, she does. She knows everything. And if she doesn't know it, she'll go and look it up. So we've got 3 questions for you today. Um, the first one is all about, uh, highest performers and are they harming team morale? So this person writes, I run a small team and one employee stands out for their skill and output. They're easily the most efficient person in the business and replacing them would not be easy. The problem is They're difficult to work with. I've got someone who I work with who's difficult to work with. They're dismissive in meetings, openly critical of colleagues, and several team members have come to me with concerns. I've had multiple conversations with them, but nothing seems to change. Their work is excellent, but the impact on morale is real. Should I let them go or should I keep them? Leanne, you listen.
Leanne ElliottShould they stay or should they go?
Al ElliottThat might be copyright. We might have to change that.
Leanne ElliottSorry. What you are dealing with, friend, is a toxic superstar. They are pesky little partridges.
Al ElliottPesky little partridge. I love it.
Leanne ElliottIt might feel like this person is contributing a lot to performance. The reality is you would have to hire 4 superstars to just make up, negate the negative impact that this toxic superstar is having on performance. I think there's a good example of like the sunk cost fallacy, isn't it? When somebody's been with your organisation so long, they've achieved so much, you put so much into them, they've put so much into the organisation, it feels like a massive, massive loss. Um, it won't be. It won't be, I'm sad to say, particularly because you said you've tried to speak to this person, you've tried to, to coach them. It's certainly worth another difficult conversation. And if you want to hear about how to have these conversations, tune in on Thursday. We have an incredible guest who, who talks about this. Try and have that conversation again. Try and explain the impact they're having on the team and on performance and the consequences if they aren't able to turn some of these behaviours around. Always good to go in with a little bit of empathy. Is something going on with them? Is this a new thing? Have they always been a bit problematic, or is this something new? Is this change in behaviour could be a symptom of something that's happening outside of work, which they need support with, they need help with. So, be curious about that. But ultimately, in terms of what we know from the psychology, Yeah. Toxic superstars might seem like they're worth it, but they're really not. They're not worth it in terms of performance, in terms of profitability, in terms of morale, in terms of your culture. It's just not gonna work. So, you need to look at this now as a, as a last-ditch attempt to turn this person around, or you're probably gonna have to performance manage them out.
Al ElliottSo, what we're saying is that you need 3 people's work to, to make up for the deficit or the detrimental work That, that the toxic superstar. So, in actual fact, they might be exceeding at one thing, sales, for example, that might, they might be responsible for 25% of all your sales, but you also need to employ 3 other people to pick up the mess that they've created around them.
Leanne ElliottExactly. Exactly. And not just in terms of performance, but in terms of the impact on, on the team as well. The thing is, there, there are some scenarios where you could have a toxic superstar And be very isolated in an individual contributor role, that could work, but they're always going to be seen as a slight outsider. And I've been in teams like that where we've had people like that, and they've, they've never really been part of the full group. So it did kind of create an us and them situation. It just, it just doesn't work, sadly. It just doesn't work. If you want to learn more about toxic superstars, go back to an episode we did with Ryan Sherman from Hogan.
Al ElliottOh yeah, that was good.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it was really good, and he explains it. Really well in terms of the impact on performance. But yeah, headline is you'd have to hire 3 people to make up for the negative impact this person is having on the performance of your business. So, are they worth hanging on to? Not really.
Al ElliottRemember I talked about that sales job I had before? I think I've mentioned this before. It's the last job I ever had back in 2002. And there was someone who used to come in 11 o'clock in the morning. We'd been from 9 till 5. They come in at 11, leave at 1, and just basically hammer the phone, put a load of sales up on the board, and then disappear off. And they were a toxic superstar because all of us were always like, oh my God, he's going to come in and I feel really bad that I can't do that. And I'm sure that the afternoons after he'd gone, we were all a bit like, yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, and I bet if you looked at the performance, I bet things dropped in terms of either call volumes or meetings booked.
Al ElliottI bet they did. But of course, the manager, the sales manager was like, well, I don't care because I've still got this guy. So yeah, tough situation, but I hope that helped. Okay, onto question number 2. How do I keep my remote team connected and motivated? So I'm grunning— I'm grunning? I am growing a remote team. I'm finding it harder to keep everyone engaged. We've tried a few things like regular check-ins, virtual socials, but it still feels like people are drifting. I don't wanna over-engineer it, but I also know engagement doesn't happen by accident. This person's been reading some of your stuff. What are the most effective ways to make sure remote employees still feel part of something and they stay motivated over the long term? Lee.
Leanne ElliottLovely. So, I think the things that you've tried are quite natural things for a business owner to try, and that you think connection is about being friends, you think connection is about us all getting on and having fun together, and that's not really what employee engagement is. The first thing that you need is a reason for people to be there. What are they supporting? What's the mission of the organisation? Do they feel inspired by that, motivated by that? Do they feel part of that in terms of understanding how their individual role contributes to that mission delivery? Those 2 things alone are going to have a massive impact on engagement and motivation if you currently don't have those very, very clear. And it might need revisiting. If you're growing, often these things do need revisiting. So, that'd be my first thing is in terms of, does everybody understand exactly what the organisation is trying to do, and does everybody understand their individual role in that mission delivery? The third thing I would say about remote teams is that, and this is the same for in-person teams or hybrid teams, none of this is different. It's just about the level of intention and clarity you're gonna need. So, people might need reminding a bit more about what that, what the reason the organisation is, or success stories of how you've hit a really important goal or target that's supporting that mission needs to be communicated a lot more frequently, a lot more regularly.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut beyond that, it's, it's very much the same whether you're remote or not. The other thing that you can do, because we do know relationships are really, really important in an organisation in terms of engagement, and it's gonna support as well this, this, this reason that people have for, for turning up, is just looking at your team and seeing how they interact. Have you got a team of individual contributors? Are they all doing something different? Because that's, that's a hard team to bring together because everyone is essentially working.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, then you might need more kind of team-building activities to, yeah, create that camaraderie. More than likely, you're going to have people that will feed into each other in terms of their individual roles, or perhaps you've got a supervisor in there. And really, it's about focusing on task cohesion, because we all talk about team cohesion, where we all want a relationship, and we want people to be best mates and have fun at work and all that kind of stuff. And that's really cool, but that's never going to work if we don't have task cohesion first. So, that basically means that what I do will feed into what Al does, and then what Al does will feed back into me, and that's a seamless process, and the task gets completed with very little friction. That is good, and that helps me respect Al as my colleague because he's done a task that then enables me to do my task. So, I'm going to do that task even better, so then it helps him out, and so it goes round. And task cohesion also then fosters Team cohesion. So, you're going to start to get that social connection. So, my thought would be, it's lovely that you think about all these events, and I think in-person meetups can be really effective if you're in a fully remote team, or plenty of Zoom meetings, that type of thing, allowing time at the beginning of a Zoom meeting to just have a chat about things. But really, it comes down to the fundamental structure of your business. Why are people there? How are they supporting that mission? And are the tasks that they're doing flowing into each other? They're not creating any friction, making it hard as people To connect on a more, um, personal level.
Al ElliottAnd I think the, the, the revelation here, I think for a lot of people listening to this is that they, most people think I need remote teams. I need this team cohesion you talk about. So they put into, into place all the stuff that this guy, this, is it a guy?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThis guy is saying, um, he's, he's tried, but they don't think about the task cohesion. And I'll be honest, it's only been the last like 3 or 4 weeks that I've heard you use the word task cohesion. And now I'm like, oh, I kind of get it. So, it does make it a bit more straightforward that if you just concentrate on making tasks that are collaborative, then the team cohesion almost takes care of itself. Is that fair?
Leanne ElliottYeah. As long as the tasks are achievable and clear and people have the resources and skills they need to do them. Yeah. But in its simplest form, absolutely. And I think it's particularly important to focus on this when we are seeing workplaces that are becoming more polarised or politics that are becoming more polarised. It comes back to civility. Right? It's not being best friends, it's being— having workplace civility, and that is just about mutual respect and starting from there. And very few people turn up to work and want to do a crappy job.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThey want to do a good job, so help them do a good job by building this task cohesion and making sure the tasks are clear and they're measurable. There's no friction in the process, no lumps and bumps, there's nothing annoying people in terms of how they access information or communicate. Fix all of that stuff. And then, as you say, it will, it will start to take care of itself. When you've got those little, those little nuggets of team cohesion, then you can pick up on it, because then people will want to meet up, or they'll want to come to a social event because they, they want to get to know people more. But at the moment, it sounds like there's just some basic things that you could do to actually just improve this and naturally move people towards wanting to, to engage more on a personal level.
Al ElliottLove it. Love it. Okay, well, good luck with that. Um, question number 3, how do you protect your wellbeing as a founder? By the way, if you are a founder, then, um, drop me an email. We're building something for you and, um, we're looking for some people, some feedback on that. So yeah, interesting. All right. So, uh, I run a small but fast-growing startup and lately I've noticed how easy it is to let my own wellbeing slide. The stress builds gradually and before you know it, you're running on fumes. I know I'm not alone in this. No, you're not. But I don't wanna burn out. I'd love to hear from someone who actually understands the founder mindset. What are the most effective ways to look after your mental and physical health when the business never really switches off? They said, PS, we're not looking for just theory. I'm looking for practical habits, tools, or mindset shifts. Careful with that word, Al, that genuinely make a difference. Leanne, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottDo you wanna kick off on this one? 'Cause you are, you are a serial founder. Um, serial as in multiple. Al didn't found Call it Kellogg's or anything.
Al ElliottCan you imagine? Yeah, I invented Tony the Tiger. That was me. Rawr. Um, I did, right? What I do know, what I've learned from Leanne is to kind of segment your life. So you've got work, yes. And then you've got your like personal time off with your family, for example.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottDon't let the two bleed into each other. Um, and one thing that I used to like doing when, when I was quite stressed is I found it was really good is to have 2 email addresses, one which went nowhere, and it was called angryal@ and my company. And whenever I was really annoyed about something, I'd write a big— or someone sent me a crappy email, I would write a reply but send it to angryal, not to them. And then once it had gone, it had gone. I'd forgotten all about it. The second one was an email that I used to call nudge mail. So basically it would ping the same email back to me in the morning. So just in the last dying minutes of the day, I'd probably sit down and I'd go, right, these are all things that frustrated me today. These are the things that—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, I need to get done tomorrow. This is what I can't work out. Send it off. And then the next morning at 8:00 AM, it'll ping back up in my, in my inbox. Now you can do this with Gmail now, just using snooze. Uh, but back in the day we had this service for it, and that really helped me to one, think about what was bothering me for the day. And then that gave me clarity to potentially process it overnight when I was sleeping. And second, when I came back in the morning, I didn't feel overwhelmed cuz I knew what I was gonna expect. I was gonna see an email with me basically handing over to myself the following day. And that did help me stop taking stuff home, and that did help me clarify problems. And also, more than once I wrote something out and went, why am I doing this? I, I'm not gonna do that. So I just deleted that bit from the email and then I never thought about it again. So I'm not sure that these are necessarily helpful answers, but what are your thoughts, psychologist Lee?
Leanne ElliottWhat you've given a really good example there of practicing emotional regulation. So not reacting in the moment, taking some time to, to, yeah, put it, down and come back to it with a clearer emotional state to then make a more logic-based decision. And with that, actually, in terms of writing it down or typing it out, neuroscience has shown us that that helps again process and deal with the emotions because the energy, the blood flow literally goes from our amygdala, which is our emotional brain, to our prefrontal cortex, which is our thinking brain. So, even that transference of energy by writing it down can help you. process those emotions. So, that's a really, really good tactic. I think other things that are really important and probably non-negotiable, sleep. You have to have a good sleep pattern. It's nonsense that, you know, when you read that these entrepreneurs successfully had 4 hours sleep a night, there's been loads of research into it and it's just not even possible.
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottLike, it is gonna have a detrimental impact on your health, on your cognition, on your everything over time. So, sleep is really important. Get decent sleep. Good sleep pattern. Absolutely right in terms of segregating life and work. I think this is such a common story. We see marriages breaking down and families breaking apart of entrepreneurs who just aren't able to, to dedicate the time. And again, we know from a wellbeing perspective, relationships are really important, probably the most important thing. Things I've heard that, um, entrepreneurs will do, which I think are quite clever, is they will have 2 different phones. One for work, one for life. The two shall never, never mix. Uh, that work phone, when they get in, goes into a drawer.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottAnd they might get it out again when, say, the kids are in bed and they've had their meal with their, with their partner, and they'll allow themselves half an hour before, before they, they go to bed. Um, can be really effective. Another one that I heard was, I think it came from Ross Simmons, who runs a remote company.
Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah. Had him on the pod. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd he said that he basically will block out his diary in terms of everything he knows he needs to do to keep balanced. So, gym time, physical activity, reading time, or listening to a podcast, or listening to music, that kind of decompression. He'll put in there social events that he has to go to, then he'll put in the work, then he'll have a routine where he'll have certain times of the day where he'll allow himself to answer emails, et cetera, et cetera. So, I think just that discipline and that routine is gonna be really—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottimportant. They're probably the few off the top of my head that I think are good places to start and won't feel too overwhelming. If you're wanting some more practical, um, hands-on support as well, I'd recommend getting a coach, getting a therapist, to have someone to talk to, someone to bounce ideas off. It can feel very lonely, can't it, as a, as a founder if you don't have somebody to do that with.
Al ElliottOkay, my love, so I think that's it for this week.
Leanne ElliottAnd conclude our business.
Al ElliottThat concludes our business. Join us next Tuesday for another edition of This Week in Work. Um, if you are a superfan, you wanna be involved, there is a WhatsApp group, very secret top secret WhatsApp group. You can email us about that. Um, and also just tell us if you like this stuff. Tell us what you like and what you don't like. Loads of links in the show notes so you can get in touch with us. Thursday we've got Mamie Kanfer Stewart. What a woman. Oh my goodness. Now if I tell you it was about meetings, you go yawn. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You do not want to miss this. It's fabulous. Leanne, anything to add before we let these lovely people go?
Leanne ElliottSubscribe, come over to LinkedIn, leave us a comment, leave us a review. That would be nice.
Al ElliottYeah, a nice review.
Leanne ElliottYes. Or anything, anything constructive, please put it in an email. All the details are in the show notes.
Al ElliottSo we'll see you on Thursday.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye.
Subscribe

Subscribe for free

SpotifyFollow on SpotifyApple PodcastsSubscribe on AppleAmazon MusicListen on AmazonYouTubeWatch on YouTubeAnother appAll platforms →