Episode 241 · 16 October 2025 · 49:45
What if meetings were the best part of your day? (Yes, really!). With Mamie Kanfer Stewart
Featuring Mamie Kanfer Stewart
What if meetings were the best part of your day? (Yes, really!). With Mamie Kanfer Stewart
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The family business that made meetings fun
How to prepare for a difficult meeting
interview#difficult-conversations#meeting-preparation#communication
Feedback conversations: getting clear on outcomes
First-time moments vs. patterns of behaviour
Giving feedback to someone more senior
interview#feedback#seniority#power-dynamics
Group decision-making without the chaos
Managing emotions when things heat up
What to do before, during, and after a decision meeting
The 'zero to five' strategy — a 15-minute consensus
interview#consensus#strategy#time-management
Turning around a passive-aggressive team
Delivering bad news with talking points
When meetings should be emails — and when they really shouldn't
interview#meetings#email#productivity
Where to find Mamie
Show notes
What if Meetings Were the Best Part of Your Day? (Yes, Really!) — with Mamie Kanfer Stewart
Guest: Mamie Kanfer Stewart — host of The Modern Manager podcast, author of Momentum, and founder of Meeteor.
Meetings. The word alone can make employees groan, roll their eyes, or quietly update their LinkedIn profile. But what if they didn't have to?
Mamie joins Al and Leanne to flip the script on the workplace's most dreaded activity. Drawing on her childhood growing up in a family business where heated, open debate was the norm, Mamie explains why most organisations get meetings fundamentally wrong — and how to fix them.
They dig into the frameworks behind feedback conversations that don't implode, group decision-making without the chaos, and why "this could've been an email" usually means "this was a badly designed meeting" — not that meetings are the problem.
Top 3 Takeaways
Prepare for the outcome, not the agenda. Before any difficult meeting, get crystal clear on what you want the outcome to be — then work backwards. The agenda is just a means to an end.
Start with curiosity, not assumptions. Whether you're giving feedback to a direct report or a senior leader, come with facts and genuine questions. You might discover the "problem" isn't the problem at all.
Meetings aren't the enemy — bad meetings are. The answer to "this could've been an email" isn't fewer meetings. It's better ones, designed with intention and a clear decision-making process.
More From Mamie Kanfer Stewart
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mamiekanferstewart
- Meeteor: meeteor.com
- The Modern Manager: themodernmanager.com
- Mamie KS: mamieks.com
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Leanne ElliottWhat would you think if you saw this in your workplace? So, a junior employee is having a heated argument with the CEO. Voices are raised, disagreements are flying, and the new employees are watching with a little fear and a lot of intrigue. This situation is when the kids on TikTok would drop the popcorn emoji in the comments. But this isn't a contrived video created to farm engagement. This was real life for our guest.
Mamie Kanfer StewartI would see junior folks arguing with my dad, who was the CEO, And they'd have these like really heated discussions. Oh man, is that person gonna get fired now because they just disagreed with the CFO? And everyone would be like, no, no, this is, that's the kind of culture we have. Of course you should disagree with whoever. That's how we have rigorous thinking. And then I left that and went into my first, quote, real job out in the real world. And I was horrified by how meetings were run. And I was like, what is happening here? This, this cannot be real. Like, there's no goal. We're showing up unprepared.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Mamie Kanfer StewartConversations are wandering, people aren't speaking up. Like, is this really what meetings are like in other places?
Leanne ElliottThat was Mamie Kanfer Stewart, and she was talking about her family business where difficult meetings were sometimes the best part of everyone's day. But the moment Mamie left that environment and entered the real world of corporate meetings, she was horrified. So she became obsessed with one question: what if meetings aren't the problem? What if we've just been doing them catastrophically wrong?
Al ElliottToday, Mamie's going to show us how to turn your most dreaded meetings into your most productive ones. And it starts with understanding that not all difficult meetings are created equal.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work. Our guest today is Mamie Kanfer Stewart, host of the Modern Manager podcast and author of Momentum. And yes, she genuinely believes meetings can be enjoyable.
Al ElliottNow, before you roll your eyes, Mamie isn't talking about this forced fun or mandatory team-building rubbish. She's talking about the kind of meetings where real decisions get made, where people feel they can actually speak up and where you walk out thinking, that was actually worth my time.
Leanne ElliottBut here's what makes Mamie's approach so practical. She recognises that not all meetings are created equal. A feedback conversation with an underperforming team member requires completely different preparation than a high-stakes decision-making meeting with 7 opinionated stakeholders.
Al ElliottAnd that difficult meeting that, you know, you've been dreading all week, The one where you're convinced everyone's gonna hate your proposal? Well, Mamie's got a technique that once turned an expected hour-long battle into a 15-minute consensus. We're gonna get to that later. So after this quick break, we'll join Leanne and Mamie and start with the fundamentals. How do you actually prepare for a difficult meeting? What different kinds of meetings are there? And how do you give difficult feedback to your boss? See you in a second. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems, and in our case, about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story, and when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer My name is Mamie Kanfer Stewart.
Mamie Kanfer StewartI have a podcast called The Modern Manager, and I work with managers helping them get out from being overwhelmed by the job of leading people and build a strong, healthy culture where everyone gets to be their best self and do their best work. I also wrote a book called Momentum: Creating Effective, Engaging, and Enjoyable Meetings, and meetings are my jam, so I help a lot of people make their meetings a productive use of time.
Leanne ElliottHow do you prepare for what people might see as a difficult meeting?
Mamie Kanfer StewartWhen you have a difficult meeting, you should do all the normal things you should do to prepare for a meeting, but there's some additional things that you should do. So first, I think it's helpful to understand the different kinds of difficult meetings, because some people might be thinking in their head right now, oh, a difficult meeting is I have to give somebody feedback and I'm worried about how they're going to take it, which is very different than, We're going into a meeting to make a tough decision, and I know we're gonna have to really grapple with some trade-offs, and that's gonna be hard for folks, which is different from, we gotta repair some harm. Something happened in our workplace culture, something between some people, and there was some unfortunate outcomes from that, and we gotta bring these 2 people together, or I need to meet with somebody and really do some repair work on our relationship. And even that is different from, I have some bad news to share. This budget got cut, and so the project is going to have to shift, or I'm— we're having to do a layoff, and so people are going to have to hear this bad news. So, all of those different kinds of meetings require similar but slightly different preparation because of what it is that makes them difficult. It all starts, though, with really understanding why do you think this is going to be hard, and really unpacking your assumptions and getting clear for yourself. Are you worried about their reaction? Are you worried about emotions flying in the meeting and somebody getting really heated in a discussion and you're not sure how to manage that in the team and you don't wanna look like you don't know how to facilitate? What's going on for you that makes this feel like it's gonna be hard? And just get clear on that and start to explore, why would this be true? What do I know about the people or the person who I'm talking with? Is, is this a reasonable assumption? And if it's not, because you start to step back and look at some fact patterns, then you can kind of let some of that anxiety go. And if it is, can you be okay with that? Can you be okay with, you're gonna have to make trade-offs and people are not gonna be happy, but you can move on. People will live with that. Everyone will get past it. Can you be okay with the fact that you might not really know how to say what you're gonna say, but you're gonna do the best you can and you're gonna come outta that meeting and you're gonna be glad you had that conversation, even though it was uncomfortable? So, it all starts with just preparing yourself, and then it goes into preparing what's actually gonna happen at the meeting.
Leanne ElliottYou said you prepare differently for different types of meetings. So, I'm thinking of some of the, the common meetings you might have that people might call difficult, might be around performance, might be around having that conversation with somebody who isn't quite hitting the mark. How do you prepare for that conversation?
Mamie Kanfer StewartSo, when you're having to have a feedback conversation, you wanna get really clear about what the outcome is. So, are you trying to get this person to understand themselves differently and to change to a specific behavior, or are you trying to bring them into this conversation and have them help unpack what is going on? Is this really more of a conversation of exploration? And depending on the outcome that you're driving for, you're going to shape your conversation a little bit differently. If you know this person is always missing deadlines and what you need them to do is send you things at a certain time and you have a whole plan for how you're going to help them do that. It's a little different than if you go in and saying, you know, I really want to understand what's going on. Why is this so hard for you? And you might not come to a solution in that conversation, but you might still make progress towards a solution. So getting really clear on your outcome, and this is true for all kinds of meetings, you have to know what the outcome is. Same thing with a difficult conversation that's making a decision. Are you actually going to make the decision in the meeting? Do you know which decision is the right option you're trying to drive towards, or is it really open? And you're going to be exploring options and you don't know where it's gonna land, but the goal is just to have a decision by the end. Again, those are slightly different outcomes, and so you're gonna prepare differently for those.
Leanne ElliottIs it better to go into that meeting one way or the other, or does it depend on, on the type of feedback you are giving? Like, should you go into it in a, with a more collaborative approach? Is that more effective or is it entirely based on context?
Mamie Kanfer StewartIt's a little based on context, but it's also based on, is this a first-time moment or is this a pattern of behavior? If this is the first time that you're giving someone feedback on something, it's generally good to go in with a little bit more curiosity because you don't know what's going on for them. You don't know if it's a skill gap, if it's a misunderstanding and they don't really know about the expectations that you have, if they don't have a process down and you missed something in your training, something's going on outside in their life that's interfering, so you want to go in and really just say, hey, I noticed this. What's going on? I'd like to understand more about why this expectation is not being met. If it's a repeated behavior and you've talked to this person already at least once, if not twice, that's when you want to go in and say, all right, this is clearly a problem. We've tried to address it in a couple different ways. Here's more of what we need to see, or here's what we need to do. What kind of support can I offer? Or here's a plan. Help me make this plan. This is what I'm laying out for you. Let's work on it together. So, you can still be collaborative, but you're being a little bit more direct because this is becoming a larger problem than the first time. If you go in with a solution and it's the first time you're raising something, your solution's probably not going to be the right one because you're probably trying to solve for the wrong problem. So, if someone's always late to meetings and you go in and you say, you need to set a calendar reminder for 2 minutes before the meeting to get your tush into that seat.
Al ElliottYeah.
Mamie Kanfer StewartThat might not be the problem. It might not be that they're distracted and they need more calendar alerts. It might be that they're in back-to-back meetings all day long and they need to go use the restroom. They need to fill up their coffee. They need to stretch their legs. So, a calendar alert is not going to help that. So, being curious is a great place to start.
Leanne ElliottI love that, being curious. I think it's such an important trait in a manager. One of the things I hear from listeners who get in touch, what they worry about is if there is something happening in in the person's life, there is something going on that isn't necessarily work-related, and the anxiety people feel about that in terms of how to handle it, whether it be a mental health issue or a caring responsibility, something that's completely out the scope of a manager role at work. How do they either prepare for that, or how do both? How do they prepare for that, and then how do they handle it in that moment in a way that's appropriate and doesn't overstep the role of a manager?
Mamie Kanfer StewartSo, first, again, starting with curiosity, right? We don't wanna make assumptions about what someone's happening in their life or what they're going through. What we wanna do is observe and share those behaviors. I've noticed that you're missing deadlines more than usual. I saw in that meeting you were really distracted. I could see that you were kind of checking your screen off the side of the camera, or you had your video off in the last 3 meetings, and that's abnormal. What's going on? So, we wanna do the same thing of starting with the facts and the observations of what we know. And not making assumptions about the cause of those things. Then in the meeting, if somebody says, yeah, you know, I got my kids at home all week and so I've been off camera, great. Find out, is this a temporary thing? Maybe it's not even something you have to deal with because, you know, it's 2 more days of the kids being off on vacation and then they're gonna go back to normal. And so you can either say, okay, fine, we'll let it go for 2 days, or help them problem solve. Is there something they can do with their kids during important meetings so that they can be uninterrupted and on camera? If it's something that's personal that they don't want to share, that's also okay. They don't have any obligation to tell you what's going on. They can just say, I'm having a really hard time at home. And you could say, great, is there something we can do here to support you? You know, is this a temporary thing? Is there something we can do to alleviate some things on your plate? Is there something I can do differently as your manager to help make things a little easier for you right now while you're going through this moment? And can we just stay in touch so that you can let me know if things are improving or if things are getting worse and how we can support you? And that can be enough. Now, if they start spilling their guts and you're like, wait a second here, I do not need to hear about your divorce. I do not need to hear about your sick mother. I do not. This is overwhelming and way outside the scope. That's also okay. Some people do that. Some people will start crying. I actually had that happen where I had a team member start crying to me about something going on in her personal life. And I felt very unprepared. And I said, you know, of course, first, just be human. I'm so sorry you're dealing with that. That sounds horrible. Like, my heart is going out to you right now, right? Show some empathy because they're sharing something very vulnerable with you. And then you don't have to solve all their problems. You can help point them in the right direction, right? Have you talked to someone in HR about this? I think there are some resources available. You know, do you need some help finding the right person to support you through this? Like, I'm, I'm not sure that I'm the right person, but I'd be happy to help you find the right person. guide them towards something that is a solution that's actually going to help them rather than feeling like you have to carry it all on your own.
Leanne ElliottIs it the same process when we're giving feedback to somebody who's more senior than us?
Mamie Kanfer StewartIt's all very similar, meaning you always want to start with those facts, right? What is your outcome? And then what are the observations or the facts that you have to support that? The key though is to frame out and think about how is this going to land best for the other person? And this is true whether you're giving feedback to a team member, to a peer, to your boss, but it's especially true when there's a power dynamic to your boss and you really want them to hear something that is even more vulnerable for you to share. So write it out. Write out your specific goal. I want my boss to stop doing X. I want my boss to start doing X. And then think about the exact words that you wanna use to share. Do you want to talk about how when they send you things over email for last minute, it causes a big shuffle in your life and you feel like you can't manage against that deadline and you don't know how to prioritize things? That's all great, but that's probably not how you want to say it. There's probably a different way of framing it that's going to help them hear it best. So you want to really think from their perspective, how can I present this information in a way that they are going to be most open to understanding the situation, to understanding the challenge that I'm facing, and to understanding the behavior that I need them to change, or I'm asking them to change. And when you can frame it in that way, they're gonna be a little more receptive. And the other little tip I like is when you wanna give someone feedback, it's really helpful to start with a simple phrase, something along the lines of, this is hard for me to say, or this might be hard for you to hear, but I feel like it's important for me to say it for the sake of our relationship, because I care about you, because I care about our relationship, because I care about your growth. Because I really wanna be my best in this role. Whatever that meaning is, whatever that reason is, put it, put some context around it and say that upfront. It's, it actually creates a moment of empathy in the other person to see that this is hard for you to say, and you're saying it because you care, because you wanna give them this gift of feedback, not because you're being obnoxious or you're trying to, you know, be judgmental or say something that is mean and put them down. You're actually saying this because you really want to do well in your job, and you want them to be able to support you in that way. And if this behavior doesn't change, it's just going to continue to create problems or frictions or unnecessary harm that you don't really need and that they don't really want for you.
Leanne ElliottGoing back to your example, because I think that's such a common one that people will feel getting last-minute requests from their manager, how would you reframe that in a way that is going to gonna go down a bit better with them.
Mamie Kanfer StewartSo, I might say something like, I'm not sure if you've noticed that you send a lot of things to me kind of last minute by email, which is fine. I'm always happy to handle things and keep projects moving, but I'm not so sure that you realize that it's causing some challenges for me around managing deadlines and prioritizing. I would love to just sit with you and figure out if there's a different way that we can handle those last-minute requests. Or if you can just help me figure out how to reprioritize work so that when those come in, I know what I should really focus on, right? You're coming to them and saying, you know, this is not a huge deal. I'm not complaining. I'm just trying to understand, is there a different way we can handle this? Which is very different than coming in and saying, every time you send me a last-minute request, it really throws me off my game. I don't know what to do. I get really lost. I get really frustrated. I have to work late and it's really a problem. Right? Like, nobody wants to hear that. Nobody wants to hear that they're creating all these problems. But if you frame it in the, I'm not sure you even know you're doing this, because a lot of times we're not even aware of these behaviors that are so challenging for others. So, I don't even know if you know that you're sending over a lot of last-minute requests, and I'm happy to always handle them, right? You don't need to create more problems by saying, please stop doing this. You're saying, is there a different way we can handle it? And those solutions then could be something as simple as, can you just put a deadline of when this needs to get back so that I understand how to prioritize it in my work? Not just, can you get this done right away? What is right away? I don't know. Do you need it in the next hour? Do you need it in the next 2 days? Like, how do— can you help me figure out how to reprioritize just by putting in a deadline? Or can you just note in that email, this is more important than XYZ thing? Or is it okay if I come back to you with, here's what I'm thinking about how to reprioritize. Can you sign off on this so I can get to work? Just be prepared with some options that also shows that you've been thoughtful about not just the problem, but the solutions and what's gonna work best for you. And then you can try and find a match between what you want and what they want.
Al ElliottSo, we've covered feedback conversations, you know, the one-on-one difficult meetings, but here's where things get a little complicated. Group meetings. This is where you've got multiple people, multiple opinions, and somehow you need to make a decision that's probably gonna leave at least someone unhappy. You've likely come across people who are overtly challenging in a meeting, or maybe they want to dig in and want more information before making decisions. Maybe it's a senior leader who's intent on hijacking the conversation. So after the break, Mamie will explain exactly how to deal with all of these.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same Podcast Network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Mamie Kanfer StewartSeamless. Seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Leanne ElliottI'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in.
Mamie Kanfer StewartWell, I wanna shift gears a little bit and talk about difficult decision-making meetings, because we think a lot about difficult conversations, which often happen in these kind of feedback spaces. But a lot of managers I work with say that the most challenging meetings that they have are actually with a group of people when you're trying to make a decision, and you've got all these different people and all these different perspectives. and you've got to come together, and no one's going to be perfectly happy at the end. And those conversations go a little differently. They still start with, what is the situation here? What is the outcome that we're driving for? But some of the pieces in the preparation that folks miss is getting really clear on who are actually the decision-makers. Is this really a full group decision? Is it going to be majority wins? Do we need to get to consensus? Or is there actually one person in the meeting who is the actual decision maker and everyone else is just giving input? And then what's the criteria? And is all the criteria equal? I was working with a team and they had to make a decision about subleasing some of their space, and there were folks in the meeting who really just wanted to make the most money possible, get the best bid on the sublease, and that was it. And there were other people who felt like These people are gonna be in our office all the time. We wanna have a community. We wanna be working alongside people who we like. And so, even if they're not gonna pay us the most money, if they're nice folks, we'd rather have them around every day than some other folks who are just kind of here in the space with us. And there were a couple other criteria that we're also thinking about. And at first, it can feel like, well, we're just now at a battle, one person versus another, and you as the meeting leader or manager have to kind of figure out how to corral all these people and get them to agree on something. But when you step back, and what we did was say, all right, let's just lay out what are all the criteria here, and then let's rank them. What's actually most important? And we used a weighted criteria matrix where we said, this criteria is worth 10%, and this criteria is worth 25%, and this criteria is worth 60%. And that actually helped us then look at the different options. and calculate in a more kind of data-driven way what the best decision was. And we didn't have to still go with that decision. The group actually then said, okay, let's look at the rankings. How do we feel about this? It gave us something tangible to work from so that we could take some of the emotions out and have a more thoughtful conversation. And it stopped being about my perspective versus your perspective. It started being about what makes the most sense given the context that we've all agreed is important.
Leanne ElliottDoes that also help to defuse that situation when you might have have a bit of heat happening in a meeting?
Mamie Kanfer StewartAbsolutely. I mean, emotions are gonna run high, and that is just a fact of being human. And as a meeting leader, it is part of your job to help take down the emotions. And some of that is gonna come from kind of shifting from protective groundholding and people starting kind of letting go of their, this is the thing that most thing that matters, and now it's all I care about, and so I have to win. And getting it onto paper and putting it into numbers and looking at data and making it more objective. How does this meet our long-term goal, right? If we do this, what are the unintended consequences? What are the trade-offs, right? The more that we can get away from, this is what I care about, to, this is what's best for the goal we're trying to achieve. And that was another piece. That's how we weighted our criteria in that meeting was, what actually matters here? Not just the criteria, but what's the long-term goal? Do we need this money because in order to be sustainable as an organization, that revenue is essential? Or can we take a little less money because that's not the most important thing for us in the long run? In the long run is actually that we wanna have a tenant that stays. And so we wanna make sure that this tenant is excited about being in this office for the next 3, 5, 7 years with us, right? Do we actually want the opposite? Because we're growing, and so we wanna have a tenant that's gonna be here for 2 years and be out so that we can take over that space. So, we don't wanna actually have a relationship with these people that we're gonna feel really bad about in a couple of years. So, looking at that long-term goal can also help defuse. And then lastly, always, always feel free to take a break. Whether you're having a feedback conversation that gets emotional, or people are kind of going at each other in a decision-making meeting, or emotions are running high because you're talking about really sensitive stuff, It is always okay to say, I'd like to take a break right now. I think it would be really good for us to just go stretch our legs, get some fresh air, get a glass of water. And you can either say, and let's come back in 5 minutes and we'll start up again. I think we just need a little bit of an energy reset. Or say, I think we should think about this for a little bit. I'm going to schedule us a meeting for tomorrow to come back together after we've all had time to process. 'Cause a lot of time those emotions in the room, they're temporary. Something was said that triggered us, the conversation starts spinning, and we have to dig our heels in, and we kind of do it almost automatically without realizing that we're now being unhelpful. And just having a little bit of space, a little bit of break, gives you a chance to kind of re-regulate your system. If it's a short break, again, walking around, taking some breaths, get a glass of water. That can help reregulate. And if it's a longer break, then we actually get some distance. And a lot of times after people sleep, they wake up the next day and they have a totally different perspective, or they're completely calm and like sometimes even feel bad about the way they showed up in that last meeting, and they're ready to come in with a much more thoughtful, kind of more collaborative approach.
Leanne ElliottIf you are that person as the meeting leader who is the expert or the, the, the kind of department leader of that field, but your boss is there and starting to hog the meeting a bit, or starting to hog the opinions and not maybe honoring this criteria that we set out and how we said it'd work. How do you approach that in the meeting, or is it better to approach that after the meeting?
Mamie Kanfer StewartWell, let's go back to some preparation that you can do. So, there's things that you can do before, during, and after the meeting to help manage some of those behaviors. So, if you know that someone is likely to be a challenging participant, talk to them beforehand. Lay out the situation, get, give them a chance to share their thoughts, understand where they're coming from, because that will help you then better prepare for how they're going to act in the meeting so that you can better guide them. You can also just say to them in the meeting ahead of time, I really want to hear from a lot of folks. Your opinion is going to weigh really heavy because of the position that you have in this company, and I don't want that to overshadow some of the other perspectives. So I'd really love it if you could wait until other people have shared to then share what you're thinking, because I know it's going to land so importantly, and I want to make sure we hear it, but I also want to make sure that we hear from other folks. So you can give them some guidance in a way that kind of still shows the honor that they deserve as being the senior person, but it's also asking them to help you out as the meeting leader. And then during the meeting, if you've planned well, you can incorporate other activities. I always say talking in a meeting is just one of the many, many things we can do, and it's often actually not the best thing that we can do. So, if you want to get different perspectives, have people write things down on a virtual sticky board and put all of their perspectives. Why is this going to, you know, why is this decision risky? Instead of going around the room and having people say them out loud, which first of all, people often don't want to disagree, and so they might not tell you out loud because they don't want to be the person who sinks the decision. But if you give an anonymous whiteboard, put it online, have people type in their answers, you'll surface a lot of risks. And then you don't have to worry so much about one person hogging the mic because everyone is having equal time to share. And then after the meeting, you can always go back and talk to folks, right? If the decision wasn't made because somebody's really holding out and you feel like, wow, we're really heading in the wrong direction here, and this one person is not willing to relinquish control, but we need everybody to buy in, it's okay to say at the end of the meeting, I think we're not quite ready to make a decision. What other information or what other people need to be involved so that we can feel confident in making this decision? Figure out what that next step is, and then after the meeting, go gather that information or go talk to those people, and also talk to the person who was holding out to really understand Why were you so against this? Like, what's really going on? Because when someone digs their heels in that strongly and you need them to buy in, there's usually more than what they're willing to say in the meeting that you need to understand. And so you can take that time after to go and have that one-on-one conversation. The other thing that you want to think about is how much of this conversation is about people's need for certainty and more information and more data and how much of it is truly about getting to a better decision. And I remember working with one team where there was someone who just always wanted to know more. It was always, I need more detail on this. I want to know more. I need more information. I need more understanding of our strategy. I need more. And it was really unhelpful. I mean, it started out helpful because they're surfacing some things of like, oh yeah, there's maybe some gaps in our thinking that we want to fill in. But at some point, it starts becoming unhelpful because more data is not always better for a decision. Sometimes you need to move forward and learn from the decision being made. So, there's also the opportunity to say, I want to make sure that we're able to move forward today because we need to get this work off the ground. So, let's just play out, what if the data came back and said X? Is that going to change how we feel? What if it said why? Would that change how we feel? If we need this data, how hard is it to get it? How quickly can we get it? What's the cost of getting it? And is that cost worth the outcome that we're driving towards? And that's one way that you can help somebody who's maybe asking for a little too much to take a step back and say, all right, I see it's going to take us 3 weeks to be able to pull all that information together in a way that's going to be relevant. And we don't have 3 weeks before we need to launch this. Right.
Leanne Elliottdecision.
Mamie Kanfer StewartSo, all right, I'm willing to go with a group here who says we believe enough that this data would come back true, so let's try it. Or let's just skinny down our decision. Let's take this other part off the table and see if we can move forward with this piece of it while we test out or get some more information about this other piece. So you don't want to get lost in the weeds. You want to still be able to move forward. And again, pulling up into the bigger context can help you do that.
Al ElliottSo Mamie's given us all these strategies for managing difficult meetings, the preparation, the frameworks, the techniques for dealing with challenging participants. But here's what I love. She's also honest about the fact that sometimes your assumptions about how a difficult meeting will be are completely wrong.
Leanne ElliottWhich brings us to one of my favourite stories from this interview. Mamie had co-planned this big decision-making meeting with 7 or 8 people, and she and her colleague were convinced They'd have to do a lot of convincing.
Al ElliottThey thought it was gonna be brutal. Mamie prepared for battle. And what actually happened? Well, you're about to find out. Oh, and by the way, the technique they use is something you can implement in your next difficult meeting. So here's Mamie on what she calls the 0 to 5 strategy.
Leanne ElliottHave you ever had a meeting that, that was gonna be, you thought it was gonna be really difficult, bad news type meeting, how you approached it, how it all worked out? Did it go a bit differently than you expected? Is there an example you can talk us through?
Mamie Kanfer StewartSure, I'm actually going to tell you an example that I think does a little bit of the opposite, which is we thought it was going to be a really hard meeting. I was co-planning with another team member, and we had a big decision to make, and it was with a big group of folks, I think 7 or 8 people plus me and my partner, and we were definitely concerned that we were going to have to do a lot of convincing to get people to agree with this plan. So we decided the approach that we would take was to lay out the decision, And our explanation as to why we felt like this was the right choice, and then have people vote from a 0 to a 5. Very start of the meeting, before any conversation. We said, if you are a 0, that means there is 100% no, you are definitely not okay with this decision. If you're a 1 or a 2, you're saying, I don't like this, I have some serious concerns. If you're a 3, you're like, I'm neutral. I could go with this if this is what the group wants. I don't feel strongly either way, but it's not maybe my preference, but I'm not going to stop it. If you're a 4, you really like it, but there are a couple of questions you'd like to add, but you're, you're on board. And a 5 is, I wholeheartedly agree. Let's just do it. And we started the meeting by asking everyone to put up their hand or put into the Zoom chat the number. And if you wanna do it anonymously, you can do it anonymously as well using a poll. And we were shocked. We got all 4s and 5s, which was not what we expected. We thought this was gonna be so tough, but people were actually really bought in to what we had laid out. And so we ended up having a very short 15-minute meeting instead of what we had planned to be an hour-long meeting. Now, I've used the same technique in other conversations, and it doesn't always end up like that. But it can, and sometimes that goes back to the assumptions that we're making and how we can get ourselves worked up about something that's not real. And if we can pause and step back and say, what am I really worried about here? And then how can I prepare? What information do I need to have ready? How can I frame this in a way that people can hear? Can actually help you alleviate some of that anxiety and also help you enter a conversation and see what is actually on the table. How are people actually responding instead of making all those assumptions upfront? So, I'll quickly say the other value of doing this kind of 0 through 5 activity is then the people who say 0, 1, or 2, you can focus on the very specific issues that they have. What are the risks that they are concerned about? What information do they feel is missing? What, why are they so against this decision? And if you do it anonymously, again, you continue having anonymous input and just say, okay, anyone who has a 0, 1, or 2, can you please put into the anonymous survey tool what your concerns are. If you do it as a group where people's names are associated, you can say, hey, Mamie, I, we saw that you were a 1. We'd really like to understand what your concerns are and give me the floor to lay those out. You can also even open up and say, I don't know who the 1s and the 2s were, but I'm curious, why might someone had say that they were a 1, right? Give the floor open to anyone and then doesn't have to be a 1 who responds. It could be anyone who says, well, here was a potential watch out, or I guess this could be concerning to some folks, and use it as a way to get some of that thinking in the room. But then you can really focus in on the points of concern rather than trying to sell a whole decision or unpack all of it when there's actually a lot of agreement happening in the room already. But that's not a bad thing, right? It might be that this decision really isn't the right decision. It's not the right option. And so, you don't want to shut that down just because you've done all this work to prepare for this to be the thing. Because you want to come in open to saying, we think this is the right thing, but we're having this conversation because we want to make sure. And so, if it's turning out to not be the right decision, that's also okay. Let's just be really clear about why. So, when risks or concerns or alternatives are being offered up and it starts to spin in that way, use your criteria as a starting point. How does this relate to our bigger goal? How does this fit with our criteria? Let's make sure that we're grounding this not just in opinion, But in the facts or the bigger context.
Leanne ElliottI've been in meetings and there's somebody who is just very negative or very passive-aggressive, and no matter how the person leading it has tried to reset it, this person just digs in. What do you do in that situation, particularly as a manager that's new to that team? Is there any advice you'd give to— for dealing with somebody who is very negative?
Mamie Kanfer StewartYeah, I had a similar situation. I took over a team that was pre-existing when the last manager left. And it always starts with you coming in with curiosity and wanting to know these people and getting an opportunity to build a relationship with each one of them because they all carry baggage just like you carry baggage. And so, you want to come in and you want to give yourself time to understand who are these people, how do they work, what was working well before that I want to keep and build on, And what wasn't working well? And if you ask those questions, what do you love about working on this team? What do you find hard about working on this team? What did your old manager do that you hope I don't do? You know, what are things that you hope I'll do that could be different or new, or what opportunities do you see? Give people a chance to tell you because that's going to be a great source of insight and guidance for how you can start to work with these folks in ways that are different than what they're used to. But also in ways that they want to work. If you come in and you have your whole plan set, this is how I love to work, this is what we're going to do, you have no relationship of trust to go from and they're going to sit there and go, oh my gosh, really? Another person who's going to tell us how to do this? That's not what they want. They want you to be their partner. So if you're in a meeting and it's not going well and someone keeps digging their heels in all the time, take some time to just talk to that person. What's going on for them? Again, so much is happening in the background, whether it's previous experiences, whether it's stuff happening out in their life, whether it's they just came from another meeting and they were really angry about that and just carried that emotion into this next meeting. There's usually more to the picture. So, the more that we can just talk to our team members and help them see how their behaviors are helping or hurting our team, we can, we have something to go from then.
Leanne ElliottWould you recommend that this new manager speaks to individuals before the meeting, or is it better to start that conversation as a group?
Mamie Kanfer StewartWell, it depends on which meeting we're talking about. So, I like, in the very beginning, starting with a new team, of taking some time both collectively and individually with each person. So, when it comes to the collective, one of my favorite activities to do is to have them tell me the story of their team. Who got here first? How did you form? What are the things that, like, the big celebratory moments that you've had, the big successes you've had along the way of your team's journey? Really just give them a chance to tell you how they came to be who they are as a collective. And again, that could be an opportunity for them to share what they love about working with each other, what's worked really well that they hope you're going to keep, what they would like to change. Use that time for them to bond with each other as they're getting to know you and you're getting to know them. Then I like to do some one-on-one things where you're just talking with each person. Who are you? What do you care about? How do you like to work? What are your pet peeves? What are your aspirations in your career? What do you want to learn? How do you want to grow? Use this as a great, great opportunity to just let them tell you who they are instead of you trying to figure it out all on your own. And then the last piece of this is you should share who you are with all of them as well. So, you can do this collectively. I think it's a nice way to do it is to say, here's who I am. Here's how I came here. Here's what excites me. And if you're a new manager, like brand, brand new, and you've never managed a team before, it's okay to tell them that too. This is my first team. I'm so excited to be working with all of you, and I know I have a lot to learn. Here are 3 things I've started doing to help me get up that learning curve faster. I have a mentor. I'm reading some books. I listen to the Modern Manager podcast or Truth, Work, and Lies. I do all these things because I want to show up as the best manager possible, and I really hope you're going to give me feedback along the way and help me show up in a way that works best for you all. So, use that as a chance for them to get to know you and what your growth goals are, and the more vulnerable you are, the more you tell them, this is what I like, this is what I don't like, if you see me doing this thing, please don't take it the wrong way, just come and tell me, that's going to set you up for a foundation of trust that the past manager maybe didn't have.
Leanne ElliottI want to take it back to these kind of bad news, hard, decisions type conversations, particularly if you've got some news that is going to devastate the team. Layoffs is a good example of, of that, but there are many others. How do you prepare for that scenario where you know it's going to be an emotive meeting?
Mamie Kanfer StewartSo, I like to always have my talking points prepared. I want to know what it is that I'm going to say, and I want to have the specific words laid out for me. So, in the case of layoffs, a lot of times your company is going to give you talking points. But if you're sharing other news, like a project budget got cut, or something's going on with a client and they're really unhappy, and you now need the team to really rally and figure out what's going on, which means people are going to have to work late and redo work, and you just know it's not going to be exciting for them, figure out what you want to say, write it down, practice the different framings of how you want to convey this in the way that you think is going to land best for the people in the room and what they care about. And also think through different scenarios. How might people respond? If someone starts crying, what do you want to do? How do you want to react to that? If someone gets really angry, how do you want to react to that? If someone throws their hands up and is just like, fine, whatever, like, this is what always happens, how do you want to react to that? Who do you want to be? How do you want to show up in those moments? And the more that you can kind of rehearse in your brain, because there's actually this really cool thing that happens in our brain where And I'm telling you as a psychologist here, so you know better than I do, but when we rehearse in our brain, it's giving our body almost like the muscle memory of having lived through that. So the more that you can practice different scenarios and just think through, what are the words I wanna say? How do I wanna show up? How am I gonna stay calm? The better prepared you'll be. And then the last thing I'll say, and this is true for all difficult conversations, I really like knowing my personal signals for my emotions, meaning what is happening for me and my body that tells me I'm nervous, I'm angry, I'm frustrated, I'm scared, I'm sad, I'm worried, whatever those things are. For me, when I get nervous, I get really cold, like super, super cold, where my hands like are so freezing, and even sometimes I shiver, which is not how a lot of people show up when they're nervous. They get warm and heated and kind of crunched. That doesn't happen for me. But when I feel my hands, when I notice, oh my gosh, my hands are really cold, I go, oh, I'm really nervous right now. And that gives me an opportunity to say, what, why am I being so nervous? What's going on? I also notice that my heart will start to race if I'm gonna say something I think is gonna land not well with someone. I know for me, it's my heart races. I don't get pink cheeks, I don't get clammy, but my heart races. So if you know your signals, then in the conversation, you can catch yourself better and understand where your emotions might be starting to interfere with how you want to show up. And it gives you a chance to just take a breath, name the emotion for yourself, and say, okay, I can still do this, and I'm going to show up thoughtfully and not let the emotions take over. Before a difficult meeting, take 10 minutes, block your calendar for the 10 minutes beforehand, and the 10 minutes afterwards so that you have space to prepare and process, especially if you are a busy manager and you have lots of different meetings or lots of different to-dos, and you are used to running back to back. You don't wanna walk into any difficult meeting feeling rushed. You wanna feel calm and centered and prepared. You wanna be able to review your notes that you took about your goal, your talking points, how you wanna frame something. You wanna recenter into how I wanna show up. Do I wanna be courageous? Do I wanna be clear and articulate? Do I wanna be kind and curious? Think through all of that before your meeting. Use those 10 minutes to get yourself ready so you can show up as your best self to facilitate that conversation. And then same thing afterwards. You're probably gonna be flooded with all kinds of sensory information and emotions. And you want that time after to process before you have to jump into your next thing. You don't want to be feeling rushed to get out of that meeting and jump into another conversation or start working on a client proposal or whatever it might be. So give yourself the gift of blocking that time afterwards so you can go take a walk. You can just cry if you need to. You can go outside and scream. You can get some water. Whatever you need to do to process so that you're ready for whatever comes next.
Al ElliottThere's plenty of jokes and memes online about meetings, and rightly so, to be honest. However, 2 of the biggest questions around meetings generally are, when should a meeting have been an email? And 2, can we ban meetings altogether? Leanne put these questions to Mamie.
Leanne ElliottHow can you tell the difference as a manager? What should be a meeting and what should be an email?
Mamie Kanfer StewartSo I have in my book 7 different reasons why you want to have a meeting. And one reason why you should never have a meeting. And the primary reason you should never have a meeting is to give information, with one little caveat. If the information is really complex, if it's sensitive, if there's emotional pieces to it, if there's a nuance, of course you want to have that meeting where you share information. But if you're just talking about standard information, let me explain all this stuff to you, Not a good reason for a meeting. And it's why a lot of meetings run as long as they do, because we spend the first 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes going through a slide presentation, giving information. And there's so many problems with that because one, nobody wants to sit for half an hour and stare at a screen. It is not energizing. We lose attention. We cannot focus for that long. Second, people need time to process. Different brains process information differently. So for some folks, sure, give them 30 minutes of presentation and they are going to have their brain firing and be ready to respond. For other people, they're not going to come up with their best ideas or their best questions for 24 to 48 hours after they've seen your presentation. And now it's probably too late because they're probably not going to circle back and say, oh, by the way, I was thinking about this. Here's my question. So, using information sharing in your meetings is making them longer and also not a good use of everyone's time and not a good focus of their attention.
Leanne ElliottI've heard of some startups, some founders going all a bit quirky and going, we're just going to cancel meetings. Meetings don't belong here. What's your take on that?
Mamie Kanfer StewartI never like to say that there's like hard and fast, like really hard and fast rules. So, every culture should do what's right for them. Meaning, if people know you don't have meetings in your company, they can sign up for that. There are definitely introverts and some people who just really don't like being in meetings, no matter what you do to make them engaging. So, if you are very clear that that is your culture and you hire people who want to work in that culture, Good for you. Most of us though find meetings to be very valuable because of the relationships that get built in meetings. And let's be clear, a one-on-one conversation is a meeting. A meeting doesn't have to have 5 people to be a meeting. Just a one-on-one conversation is still a meeting. So they're great places for building relationships. You get the energy and the collaborative ideas. Yes, you can brainstorm outside of a meeting, and I actually do recommend that most teams who are doing brainstorming sessions Start by brainstorming individually outside of the meeting, and then bring those ideas into the meeting and do a second round of brainstorming together, because you're going to get different creativity and juices flowing when you're in a group and you're having that conversation. And some decisions, you can try all you want to write Slack messages back and forth and write memos and leave comments, but you got to just be in conversation with folks. You need that real-time back and forth. and the nuance of being able to see someone's facial expression to understand how important is this to them? Where are they energized? That emotion doesn't usually come across in a document. So meetings have their place. They're just not the only tool.
Al ElliottThat was Mamie Kanfer Stewart. And I think there's one clear lesson here. Meetings aren't your enemy. Bad meetings are your enemy. So when someone says this should have been an email, what they're really saying is you wasted my time by sharing information I could have read on my own.
Leanne ElliottBut decisions, discussions, building relationships, working through complex trade-offs— those genuinely need meetings. And when you prepare properly, they can actually be the best part of your day. I know our listeners will take so much away from this and want to learn more about you, your podcast, your book, your work. Where's the best place for them to go?
Mamie Kanfer StewartYou can find about everything on mamiekas.com. M-A-M-I-E You'll find the link to my podcast, The Modern Manager, and my business Meteor, which is all about meetings, and my book Momentum.
Leanne ElliottAnd one last word on your podcast, because I've been listening to it, I'm a fan. Tell us what people can expect.
Mamie Kanfer StewartWe cover everything you might need to know to be an effective manager. So, I have guests like yourself, Leanne, who is also a guest on my show, and we talk about pretty much everything that is related to being an effective manager and being a good team leader. Everything from productivity and time management to difficult conversations and meetings to decision-making and strategic thinking really covers the bandwidth of really practical things for how you can show up and be a good team leader. And I'm so excited because you, Leanne, were also a guest on my show, so people can know how fabulous it is because, of course, you always go on great shows and share great wisdom yourself.
Al ElliottYou can find Mamie at mamieks.com. That's M-A-M-I-E-K-S dot com. And you should go and find her. You're going to find out more about her podcast, The Modern Manager, her book Momentum, and her business Meteor, which is about making meetings better. Oh, and you're going to hear Leanne on The Modern Manager podcast in the next few weeks.
Leanne ElliottYes, you will. This is Truth, Lies and Work. We will see you next week.