Truth, Lies & Work

Episode 250 · 18 November 2025 · 52:44

The Post Office scandal, beating imposter syndrome and the UK's work crisis. PLUS! Does time really speed up as we get older?

The Post Office scandal, beating imposter syndrome and the UK's work crisis. PLUS! Does time really speed up as we get older?

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  1. Can the government really Keep Britain Working?

    news roundup#government#uk#employment#policy

  2. Nicknames for lazy coworkers: is banter really harmless?

    news roundup#workplace-culture#banter#coworkers#nicknames

  3. The Post Office scandal: how trust collapsed

    news roundup#post-office-scandal#trust#organizational-culture

  4. Truth or Lie: Does time really go faster as you get older?

    truth or lie#time-perception#aging#psychology

  5. Workplace Surgery: imposter syndrome as a business owner

    workplace surgery#imposter-syndrome#business-owner#entrepreneurship

  6. Workplace Surgery: ADHD workplace adjustments

    workplace surgery#adhd#workplace-adjustments#neurodiversity

  7. Workplace Surgery: re-engaging a switched-off top performer

    workplace surgery#performance-management#employee-engagement#top-performer

Show notes

The Post Office Scandal, Beating Imposter Syndrome & the UK's Work Crisis

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down a major government review into why half a million more people have left work since 2019, the human failures behind the Post Office Horizon scandal, and the neuroscience of why time seems to speed up as we get older. Plus, in Workplace Surgery: imposter syndrome, ADHD workplace adjustments, and re-engaging a switched-off top performer.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Can the government really 'Keep Britain Working'? A major new review led by Sir Charlie Mayfield digs into why half a million more people have left work since 2019 due to long-term sickness, stress, or disability. The findings point to broken systems, poor coordination between the NHS and employers, and a lack of early support. The solution? A joined-up national programme that treats work and health as two sides of the same coin. Read the report →

2. The Post Office scandal — how trust collapsed A new MSc study from Charlotte Glading at the University of Leeds examines how the Post Office's Horizon IT system caused one of the worst miscarriages of justice in modern history. The research reveals deep organisational flaws: a culture of fear, denial, and blind faith in technology that silenced whistleblowers and destroyed lives. The conclusion is sobering — this wasn't a tech failure, it was a human one. Charlotte on LinkedIn →

🧠 Truth or Lie: "Does Time Really Go Faster as You Get Older?"

It feels true — childhood summers lasted forever, but adulthood disappears in a blink. Al and Leanne explore the neuroscience behind why time seems to speed up, and how novelty, memory, and emotion shape our perception of life's pace. Spoiler: it's not that life is physically moving faster — it's that our brain has recorded fewer event markers along the way.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

  1. Imposter syndrome: "How do you deal with imposter syndrome as a business owner?"
  2. ADHD: "What workplace adjustments can you expect after an ADHD diagnosis?"
  3. Disengagement: "How do you re-engage a top performer who's switched off?"

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

🧠 Support with Mental Health and Wellbeing

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up in This Week in Work.
Leanne ElliottA major new government report tackles one of the UK's biggest workforce challenges: why half a million more people have left work due to long-term sickness since 2019. So can the government really keep Britain working, and what does the plan actually look like?
Al ElliottAlso this week, the Post Office Horizon scandal. How did one of Britain's most trusted institutions ruin How did a company ruin hundreds of innocent lives and keep doing it for 20 years? A new MSC study breaks down what went wrong and what every leader needs to learn from it.
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, does time really go faster as you get older? Childhood seemed to stretch on forever, but now entire months disappear in a heartbeat. So is time actually speeding up, or is something else happening?
Al ElliottPlus, in this week's Workplace Surgery, a business owner is dealing with imposter syndrome despite clear success. Do other founders feel this too?
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo let's get right into it after a quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello, hello, welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week.
Leanne ElliottWell, do you know what? It's not, it's not specifically my favourite time of the week this week.
Al ElliottRight, why?
Leanne ElliottBecause I celebrated my birthday on Saturday.
Al ElliottYes, you did.
Leanne ElliottThe presents, Al, I must say, you absolutely excelled yourself. I still can't get over the size of that ring.
Al ElliottYeah, as I said to you, there's still a couple of them still, still waiting. Amazon, you can't get it, you can't get it over here.
Leanne ElliottYou better not be buying my 20 ring on Amazon, tell you that right now.
Al ElliottOkay, so rather more uncomfortably, I think we will—
Leanne ElliottIt's LOL because we're recording this before my birthday.
Al ElliottYou don't say that.
Leanne ElliottNo? Okay. Yeah, loved, loved it. Thank you for the lovely presents, Al.
Al ElliottOkay, all right, time for Al's uncomfortable time of the week and Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. Cue that jingle, Al.
Al ElliottWhat have you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottA major new report is out this week and it's tackling one of the biggest questions facing the UK right now. Let's be honest, faced the UK for some time. Why is it that so many people want to work but can't? A big thank you to James Hardy on the old LinkedIn for sending me this report and drawing my attention to it. I will leave a link to James's LinkedIn profile in the show notes. So this is called the Keep Britain Working Review. It's led by Sir Charlie Mayfield and commissioned by the Department for Work and Pensions. The aim is to understand what's driving the sharp rise in people leaving the workforce due to long-term sickness, stress, or disability And crucially, how to help them stay in or return to work. So according to the review, economic inactivity— that's what we call it— has risen by around half a million people since 2019, reversing 25 years of steady decline. So right now, around 8.7 million working adults report a health condition that limits their ability to work, and that number is still climbing. The report calls this one of the most urgent workforce challenges of our generation. Because when people leave work for health reasons, the odds of returning do drop very quickly. Those who are out for less than a year are almost 5 times more likely to return than someone who's been out for longer. And the system as it stands apparently isn't helping enough. Employers often lack the structure or expertise to manage long-term sickness. The NHS and job centres work in silos, don't they just? And benefits, health, and employment policies rarely align. Al, thoughts on this?
Al ElliottIt's a really thorny subject. So what we're saying here is there is these 8.7 million people. These are people who are working age and they want to work, or the stats just say that they're working age but off on sick?
Leanne ElliottYeah, the stats are saying they are not currently well enough to return to work.
Al ElliottAnd how are we measuring they're well enough to come to work?
Leanne ElliottWell, this is also where it's really hard to collect data on anything like this because it's going to typically be linked to benefits and benefit status, or indeed not. There could be plenty of people that don't qualify for benefits because they have a large amount of savings that they're currently living off, but they're deemed as should be able to be economically active and for health reasons aren't.
Al ElliottSo, I mean, there's going to be a large number of people who— well, there's going to be a number of people there. For whom it's genuine. They genuinely can't work.
Leanne ElliottOf course. Or the vast majority of people.
Al ElliottI think that I'm not gonna— I'm trying very hard not to go Daily Mail on you. I suspect there are— there is a percentage of people who don't want to work.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd therefore this is the way. And I think that it's unfair because, again, I'm referencing the red tops, which is the tabloids in the UK. And they tend to go very like, Oh, well, all these people, we're working and we're earning money and we're paying their salary and they're just sat at home watching Jeremy Kyle. That's been cancelled now, isn't it? They're watching something like, uh, some daytime TV and it's not fair. So there's— we need to be careful that we did— that we separate out that slight outrage, which I think all of us will slightly have. It's unfair. We're all paying into the system and some people are gaming it with the actual people who actually do want to come back to work. Leanne, you worked on a contract that helped long-term unemployed people come back.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottGet back to work. How many of those people were off work because of sick?
Leanne ElliottA large percentage.
Al ElliottAnd obviously it's— I'm gonna ask you a question. I dunno whether you are able to answer this. Of that, what percentage would you say were genuinely unable to work due to illness?
Leanne ElliottThat's a very broad statement.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottYes. I think to address a few of your things, yes, I did work in welfare to work for a long time. I worked on programmes that helped people with multiple barriers, including physical and mental health conditions, get into work. In terms of do people want to work, yes, the vast majority do. Don't get me wrong, there are people that game the system. There absolutely are professional benefit claimants out there. They're such a minority. The vast, vast majority of people want to work. But the problem is, is that when you have a health condition that's kept you out of the workplace for a significant period of time, a year or more, it isn't just about being physically or mentally well enough to return to work. There's psychological challenges that are going to come with that return to work. It could be around anxiety around what if my health declines when I do that? I've lost a lot of confidence financially. I'm now in a position where I'm, I'm not well off by any means, but I'm, I'm getting by. Whereas if I take a job and then I drop out of work and I lose my benefits for 2 months while they're sorting out all the paperwork, which does happen a lot, that's going to put me in a worse position. There are so many reasons why somebody who is able to return to work doesn't quite feel ready. There's so many reasons that is the case. And it really is, it really is the problem that the UK government, under every colour that we've had— I worked in welfare to work under Labour, Coalition, and Conservative, and they were all problematic in different ways. But the programme that worked the most was was the ESF Family Support Programme, which was, I think it started with a coalition and then it's the Conservatives in collaboration with the EU. And what it basically looked at was, let's not talk about work. These 8.7 million people, let's assume half of them are, I've got so many barriers to work. Let's not even chat about getting a job right now. Let's look at what your barriers are. Do you still have existing physical and mental health conditions that will need Financially, where does that stand? Are you actually going to be worse off going back into work? I have worked with people and had to tell them not to get a job because financially they'll be worse off because of the health benefits they're getting, child tax credits, everything else. I think that is reducing now because of, because of the way benefits have gone. But there are occasions where you are financially worse off to go to work. There could be things around parental responsibilities. There could be things around confidence.
Al ElliottYeah. And that's something that we need to talk about.
Leanne ElliottAround social isolation, so many things. And we would focus on addressing those barriers for the first 6 to 12 months they're on programme. Voluntary programme as well, they don't have to be there. So these are the people that want to get back into work. When they felt ready, when we felt they were ready, and had addressed sufficiently the barriers that they had, then we'd talk about work. And we'd talk about work in a way that's very much in terms of what can you handle, what is going to give you purpose, what's going to align with your skills, what's going to challenge you but not overstretch you during this transition period. And that might take us another 6 to 12 months. Typically, people are on programmes somewhere between 9 months and 12 months before they got a job, which is unheard of in welfare to work. You usually got kind of 2, 3 months maximum before they'll get moved on to another provider. And it's this attention to, to the detail, the holistic detail of somebody's life and all the elements to it that were successful in returning somebody to work sustainably and then continue to work with them. We continue to work with them for another year once they're in work. That requires a lot of funding. It requires a lot of patience. It requires a lot of goodwill from government in terms of how these outcomes are measured. It requires a lot, and they want a quick fix. They want a silver bullet. And that's why this— I think James pointed out to me in one of his posts that this is the 3rd report of its kind in 15 years.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottCalling out the same problem that isn't making any systemic change because the government, whoever they are, aren't willing to invest in the quality of interventions that are needed. And it isn't just about health, it's also a cultural problem. We do have an issue with worklessness being ingrained in the culture of some of our communities in the UK. People being shamed for getting a job— who do you think you are? So it's a massive issue, and it's not one that's easily solved. It's one that's going to take a massive amount of investment. And the report did go on to talk about that in terms of recommendations. So see what you think of these, Al. The first one said, A new stay-in-work and return-to-work offer is needed. So a coordinated national programme involving employers, the NHS, and job centres. The goal is early action, catching health problems before they become crises, keeping people connected to their jobs, and providing rehabilitation and coaching through recovery. Second, the expansion of work coaches. So fans of work coaches are already being recruited into job centres. I think, I think I've actually talked about what I think about this on the show before.
Al ElliottI believe you've written an article for a major publication about this.
Leanne ElliottI did actually, yeah, Yahoo Finance, yeah. Yeah, um, so pilots have begun placing some coaches as well directly inside NHS services, and their role is to bridge the gap between health and employment. And third, shared accountability. So the review argues that government and employers both need skin in the game through clearer incentives, co-funded occupational health support, and better data on what works. Oh, there's so much to this, Al. Do you have any further thoughts?
Al ElliottI— the problem is that I look at this from the point of view Business is pretty tough at the moment.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, and so if you're saying to an employer, oh, well, employers should be doing more. Yeah. If you're BT or probably a bad example, but if you're Sky or big company, yes, you should be doing more. But the majority is like 92% of people are employed by small to medium-sized enterprises in the UK. So you're talking about 92% of people are employed by someone where there's just one person at the top whose job it is to balance everything from making money to profitability to growing the business and then going, Oh, by the way, you need to also invest in this as well. It seems it's a big ask. In an ideal world, of course you'd invest in it, but I think it's just a tough ask. The other, the one thing I would say, and I'm not being sycophantic to you, but the one thing I would say is that your idea of creating engaged work, well, not your idea, it's everyone's idea, but you know, you keep banging on about creating amazing workplace cultures.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat would stop people, a lot of people from actually wanting to quit, I think. I wonder, I bet there's no data on it, but I wonder if there's a correlation between poor workplaces, places where people don't wanna be, and people going off on sick.
Leanne ElliottOh, there absolutely is data on it.
Al ElliottOh, is there?
Leanne ElliottYeah, there's a whole, yeah, there's a mountain of data on the links between absenteeism and toxic workplace cultures, disengagement. Meg Lloyd started all this off, what, 2009, talking about that. And again, it's, do you know what I think it is? It's at this point we don't need to do more, we just need to do better. The HSE has their Management Standards Survey that is meant to be a legal requirement that every organisation with 2 or more employees runs this stress test essentially on the workplace environment every 12 months. It's a legal requirement that isn't enforced, isn't monitored, and barely anybody does. Enforce it. See what people are saying. If you— and also within that law, if you've got 5 or more employees, you're meant to make that information public. People are going to start to take it more seriously. That affects their brand, their ability to attract talent, their ability to attract customers when ethical practices are becoming much more, much more, um, norm. So I think it's, it's do— don't do more, do better. And in terms of Welfare to Work, we need to invest a lot of money because this is a significant challenge that this person is going through. A 1-hour meeting once a week with a job coach in a job centre ain't gonna do it. Employ me! Maybe I should go back to Welfare to Work, Al.
Al ElliottMaybe you should run it. Leanne for Prime Minister.
Leanne ElliottOof, no thank you. Anyway, I'll leave all the links to that in the show notes. It is a very long and detailed report. I think the executive summary itself is like 12 pages long. So enjoy that. And thanks again to James for bringing it to my attention. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottJames Hardy, is it? James Hardy?
Leanne ElliottJames Hardy.
Al ElliottSo go and find James Hardy on LinkedIn and go and give him a follow. Okay, so I was I got a message from my brother-in-law. Hello, Jamie. I'll be honest.
Leanne ElliottWoo!
Al ElliottJamie was at our wedding. He's this big story about him and take that. It's kind of funny. I'll be honest, 98% of the stuff Jamie sends me is not for public consumption. And I'm pretty sure that I'd be going to prison for just even opening his messages. But one of them did, he did send me, which made me chuckle. His nicknames for lazy coworkers. So the first one is Cordless 'cause he only works for 2 hours. The second one I really like is they nicknamed someone E.T. because they always want to go home. Then there's someone else called KitKat because they're always taking a break. Then we've got Sensor Light because it only works— they only work if someone walks by. And then there was another one, Lantern, someone who's carried at work all the time. And another one, which is just Shetland Tony because he was a small guy called Tony. Oh, that's great.
Leanne ElliottQuite funny.
Al ElliottNow these make us laugh, but there is a Rock FM which is in New Zealand. Um, and by the way, if you're listening, Rock FM people, I'm saying New Zealand, not Australian, because everyone calls them Australian. There's a New Zealand, uh, radio station called Rock FM, um, in Auckland, and they have quite a few series of these, and a lot of them are not fit for our broadcast standards, but they're very, very funny. My question is, I mean, these make me laugh, but then I'm like, huh, can you imagine actually being in a workplace where you call someone Wheelbarrow, because they only work when they're pushed. I don't know whether I would be fine with that, 'cause I think it would be funny, but at the same time, is it like a form of bullying? Is it, is it perhaps just allowing someone to be a bit lazy because they've already got the nickname Wheelbarrow? So they'll go, yeah, fine, everyone thinks I'm lazy, so I'm just lazy. What would a psychologist say if they walked into a workplace like this and these things were going on?
Leanne ElliottSo this is why people like me and Enya Doyle get accused of like not allowing 'Cause it is funny. It is funny. KitKat always wants a break.
Al ElliottThat is funny.
Leanne ElliottIt is funny. The question comes down to, does the person you're calling KitKat find it funny?
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd I doubt very much that they are because it's taking a very negative view on their approach to work and how they operate in the world. And I'm sorry, Jamie, if you're listening, I doubt you are though. He is firmly a Gen X. It's a different generation where kind of the hustle was rewarded and And yeah, well, burnout was a badge of honour and sexual harassment was very much alive in the workplace. I mean, don't get me wrong, it still is, but probably more overt than it was now. So it's a very Gen X boomer joke and kind of like, oh, you're not allowed to have fun anymore. It's like it was never funny to the person that you were taking the mick out of in a way that impacted their self-esteem, their sense of self, their ability to work effectively in an environment. So with that in mind, it's probably not cool. It obviously depends. And it comes down to how somebody is taking this. You know, as Xenia says, it's about— it's not necessarily about intention, want to be lighthearted and funny. It's about the impact that actually has. It could be that it's fine. It could be that it's not. But I think typically, if you're calling somebody a name that undermines a key part of their identity, I don't think that typically goes down that well.
Al ElliottDo you know what, I'm gonna go back to something Jimmy Carr said once. I've seen Jimmy Carr a couple of times. We've seen him a couple of times live, haven't we, in Manchester? Um, and, um, and he said, he said on one of his shows, he said, I never make a joke about someone where I have to look left or right and see if the— see if that person or that type of person is hanging around. So basically, he'll always make jokes to people to their faces. And I think that this is sort of, sort of almost like if people are saying this behind I can see, no, that's wrong. However, let's talk about people who work hard all day in relatively dangerous jobs. Let's talk about where it does skew towards more male. This is— I get so much— when my best mate sends me a message giving me, telling me, or describing me as something horrendous or giving me some insult, I'm like, oh, I love you too, man. So I totally understand what you're saying. It's a really hard balance, but I would campaign a little bit saying, Let's not ban them altogether because in some situations I believe they would improve engagement.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it depends, doesn't it? It depends. But I mean, there has actually been some research into that in terms of friendships and how being brutally honest can actually bring you closer together because it trusts and kind of builds a lot more knowing that that person's always gonna be honest with you. So there is absolutely benefits to this kind of directness and humour to it. I think it comes down to how involved is everybody in the joke? How are they taking it on? And I think really, if it's not going down well and you're continuing to hammer it, then that's not cool. But yeah, I'm sure there's environments where it's okay. I think it's gotta come down to, is everyone finding it funny or is it just you?
Al ElliottFair enough. Fair enough. So, Leanne, what else you seen this week? Well, I have seen some really cool research on the Post Office If you're not, if you're not from the UK, or perhaps you've not heard from the UK, there is a fabulous BBC iPlayer series. I'm not saying use a VPN to access it if you're not in the UK, but I believe that option is available to you called Mr. Bates Against the Post Office, is it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, something like that.
Al ElliottMr. Bates, not Master Bates, Mr. Bates. And it is a fabulous, fabulous story. No, it's a terrible story, but it's a fabulous story. Fabulous series depicting essentially what happened. And essentially, are you going to explain what happened?
Leanne ElliottI am.
Al ElliottYes, well, I'll stop then.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, if you haven't heard of it, uh, the late 1990s, the Post Office— that's basically the people that delivers our mail in the UK— um, introduced a new IT accounting system called Horizon, built by Fujitsu. That detail is important. Very quickly, the subpostmasters— so these are the small business owners that run local branches of the Post Office, like a franchise— Like a franchise. Yeah, they began spotting unexplained shortfalls in their accounts, and the Post Office basically said that losses were their fault, it wasn't the system. And then over the next 2 decades, more than 700 people were prosecuted, hundreds lost their livelihoods, and tragically, some even took their own lives. And it is now recognized as one of the worst miscarriages of justice in modern history. I think it was only— was it this week, the last 10 days or so that Mr. Bates has actually finally got his compensation payout from the Post Office. So it is an extraordinary story that is horrifying in terms of its impact, and it, it does raise a question: how can an institution like this, one of the most trusted institutions, manage to ruin so many innocent lives and keep doing it for 20 years before anyone stops it? From an organizational psychology perspective, It's mind-blowing how an organisation can create the conditions for this, this level of injustice. And it's thankfully one that Charlotte— do you know what, I didn't ask Charlotte how to pronounce her surname. Charlotte Gladding? Charlotte Glading? I'm not sure. I'm sorry, Charlotte. I will, I will spell it out in the show notes. But Charlotte, an MSc student in Organisational Psychology and Business at Leeds University, or has— she's now graduated. Congratulations. Charlotte chose to study the Post Office scandal for her dissertation. And again, I said it a couple of weeks ago, it's why I'm really a big fan of featuring the work of MSc students. It's these fresh ideas, it's the outrage, let's be honest, of these things happening and wanting an answer to how could this possibly happen. And that was a central question to Charlotte's research in terms of the factors that led to this happening. Al, are you with me so far?
Al ElliottI am, yes.
Leanne ElliottOkay, so in terms of Charlotte's research, she used 2 key frameworks. If you're interested, Al, she used the first one was, sorry, the hexagon framework, which views organisations basically as systems made up of 6 interconnected parts. So you've got people, culture, goals, processes, infrastructure, and technology. And they're all related in a way that means that when one part fails, The other parts will start to feel the pressure.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottThe second theory she used is called learning from failure. So this draws on lots of classic work that basically suggests the healthiest organisations are obsessed with learning from errors, not hiding from them. It's kind of the root of psychological safety. So Charlotte used these frameworks to analyse inquiry documents from the Post Office scandal, witness statements, internal reports, and she conducted expert interviews with people in psychology leadership and governance who had studied or experienced the case. Her findings were brutal but absolutely fair. So why did this happen? How could this possibly be allowed to happen? First, mismanagement. So subpostmasters were ignored, they were undertrained, they were left without support. Many tried to report technical faults, but their warnings were dismissed. There was no assistance for listening, no mental health support, no sense of safety. Charlotte called it organizational neglect, and I agree. Second, a breakdown in collaboration. So this is the Post Office and Fujitsu, so the company behind the Horizon platform. They failed to work together. So Fujitsu even charged the Post Office to access crucial system data, effectively blocking investigations that could cleared subpostmasters' names. Third, an overreliance on technology. So leadership placed blind faith in Horizon's accuracy. Reports of faults were seen as personal failings, not evidence. And this overconfidence created what Charlotte calls a failure culture. So basically an environment where errors weren't data, they were defiance. And finally, a failure to design healthy social systems. So Charlotte's analysis showed that the real problem wasn't just software, it was how people managed the system. So communication was poor, culture was defensive, leadership was morally detached. As one of the interviewees put it, it wasn't the technology that failed, it was the people running it. So Charlotte's conclusion was pretty damning. The Horizon scandal wasn't a technology failure, it was a human systems failure. The approach of fear, denial, and a total absence of psychological safety.
Al ElliottAl's thoughts. Yeah, my second to last job was working for a pub for a company called Punch Taverns, and they used a Fujitsu system. And I noticed money go— I was a manager of the business. I noticed money going missing. So first of all, it was only a couple hundred quid. I put it back. Then about £2,000 was missing over a period of like 2 weeks. So I went to my area manager and said, look, I really need some help with this. He said, put it back or you're getting fired. And then more money went missing and, um, he fired me. Uh, so I don't know, I've got no proof, but it was a Fujitsu system and it was exactly the same thing. And that—
Leanne ElliottAround the same time?
Al ElliottAround the same time. That was about 1999. Um, and I remember that just, I was maybe 22, 23 or something, and that destroyed me. Um, it really did. It took me ages to get my confidence back. So yes, I applaud you, Charlotte. For putting— bringing this back into the, back into the fore. Unfortunately, I've got no proof about myself and I'm like, that was 25 years ago, so I've forgotten all about it.
Leanne ElliottI think it was though. I think it was. Your dad is convinced as well.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottWe've talked about it with your dad in terms, and he's very analytical and very measured and, and it just, it, there's so many similarities that line up.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI honestly think you were a victim of, of the same thing.
Al ElliottThere was a couple more managers who got sacked for firing, sacked for theft around the same time as well. So.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, an awesome MSc dissertation there. Thank you so much, Charlotte. Um, if you like that, check out a couple of weeks ago we talked about Mary Lou's research, um, that looked at volunteers and motivation. If you have just finished your MSc dissertation, or maybe you graduated a couple years ago and you think it's something we would be interested in, send it in, get in touch, get on LinkedIn, uh, look in the show notes or emails there. I'll leave all the links.
Al ElliottFabulous. Okay, well, it is time For a small break, and then after that we've got the truth or lie segment where we're going to talk about whether time goes faster as you get older. And of course, our world famous weekly workplace surgery where I put a question to Leanne. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast—that's us, by the way—and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work, and we both had to wrangle. Rory Sutherland on an episode, and two out of three of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you—we need to do this in threes—the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Seamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how. New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really It'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Leanne ElliottKeep that in.
Al ElliottWelcome back. This is our relatively new segment. I'm really, really enjoying this. Basically, this is where we take popular beliefs and we hold them up to the evidence. And the person holding it is gonna be Leanne, obviously. So today we're looking at something almost everyone feels at some point. Time seems to speed up as we get older. Oh my good God, yes.
Leanne ElliottOh my good God, yes.
Al ElliottOh my God. As I'm, as I'm hurtling towards my 50th birthday, days and weeks seem to be minutes and hours. So when you're a kid, you imagine, remember the school holidays? They were like—
Leanne ElliottOh, forever.
Al ElliottThey were years long. Now, well, I dunno what's happened to 2025. Is it '25 or '26? I don't even know.
Leanne ElliottYou know, I have no idea. You could tell me it's 2030 and I'd believe you.
Al ElliottSo the question we've got for you today, Leanne, is very straightforward. Does time really accelerate or is something else happening?
Leanne ElliottBefore we dive into this one, I just wanna give a quick overview of time perception. I actually did this for my undergrad dissertation.
Al ElliottDid you?
Leanne ElliottYeah, it was on time, the perception of time.
Al ElliottIf only there was a podcast back then you could have sent your undergrad.
Leanne ElliottI know, I know. I think it's on the shelf behind you. Actually, maybe we'll talk about it next week. So basically, in terms of time perception, we don't have an internal watch, internal clock. And actually, that's what my research looked into. So it's not that we measure time, essentially, we interpret it. So different areas of our brain are responsible for how they create a sense of duration. So there's lots of different aspects that are gonna feed into this. It's not that we have an internal clock that speeds up as we get older. Just as a little context. So in terms of where the idea came from, we can actually trace it back to the late 19th century. A philosopher called William James, he suggested that childhood feels slower because it's filled with novelty, while adulthood becomes more repetitive and therefore feels quicker. Um, it was an observation, it wasn't a theory tested at the time, but it is one that modern research still examines in quite a lot of detail. So in terms of the case for why we feel time going quicker as, as we get older, one of the most robust findings comes from 2 psychologists who studied 1,800 people aged 16 to 80. What do we like about this, Al? Large sample, good spread of, of ages.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottParticipants were asked how fast the last week, month, year, and decade had felt. The short intervals showed up as no different. So the week, the month were rated as quick by almost everyone. Hmm. But the decade was completed Older adults were much more likely to say the last 10 years had gone quickly. So, the key finding was that older adults compress long periods of time more than younger adults. And the authors explain that this is because of retrospective memory effect. So, basically, the long periods depend on how many meaningful events you can recall. Older adults retrieved fewer distinct markers.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottWhich shortens the remembered duration. So basically what James said in the 1800s, that the lack of novelty means that time goes quicker.
Al ElliottRight. Okay.
Leanne ElliottThere was then a follow-up study with 800 participants that tested this further. And this time people reported what the past decade actually contained. So pushing this theory more. So they'd ask people, did they have major life events, any challenges, changes, Or long periods of routines. And again, they found that short interval, intervals still felt quick regardless of any age, but the decade only felt quick when there had been less novelty.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo novelty is a big, big important here, a big important factor here. A very recent study, 2025, this year from Cambridge, 577 adults watched the same 8-minute scene from a Hitchcock movie.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWhilst undergoing fMRI scanning, so scanning of the brain, researchers tracked what is called neural state transitions, which basically reveal how the brain breaks the experience into discrete moments. What they found is that younger adults showed rapid transitions. So they're basically putting in more markers to create more small segments of how they see this time. Whereas older adults had fewer transitions, so they would hold each neural stage for longer. And why that's important is that in terms of older adults, if they segment experiences into fewer events, then it means fewer markers, which means that the memory sees that period as feeling shorter.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottFewer event markers make it feel shorter, which is why time passes quicker.
Al ElliottGot it. Right. Okay. Love it.
Leanne ElliottSo, so far it seems like a combination of how we're experiencing our life in terms of how quickly or slowly time passes and how our brains are working and how they're processing and how that changes as we do get older. So that is why time might feel that it's moving quicker as we get older. But the idea in that neat little box could be misleading. And of course, there are always nuances. So in terms of older adults, they don't consistently experience the present more quickly as such. So when researchers use short interval timing tasks, so basically they'll ask somebody to judge, was this seconds or minutes? And they'll do it in different ways. So they'll play a note and say, how long was that? Or they'll get someone to press a button for 8 seconds. When we're doing that, age differences almost disappear.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd in some studies, older adults even overestimated durations. Because this short interval timing really relies on more attentional mechanisms that do remain relatively stable with age, and obviously in terms of a healthy, healthy brain. So what this basically is showing us, Al, is that this acceleration of time isn't happening in the moment, it's happening in hindsight.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottThat it's not that life is physically moving faster, it's that our brain has recorded Or if it has recorded fewer distinct events, then that period feels condensed when you look back on it. It feels like it's gone really quickly. And COVID demonstrated this perfectly because we all experienced so much monotony that it just distorted our sense of time entirely, regardless of age. So yeah, again, it's that lack of novelty that seems to speed up time. We have a lot more, a lot more new and fresh experiences in our younger, in our younger years. So in terms of is it true or is it lie, it is true that older adults remember long stretches of life as shorter because these event boundaries blur, novelty decreases, neural processing slows, fewer memories are formed, and the result is basically a compressed sense of the past. But it's not entirely true in that Time itself accelerates when we get older. It's not simply that, yeah, time is moving more quickly. Our moment-to-moment time perception remains relatively consistent over our entire lifespan. So really, if you want time to go a bit slower as you get older, you need to look to do new things, inject some novelty into your life. So yeah, it's a really, really interesting area. Yeah, if you want some, some details on the research, get in touch and I'll send it through to you.
Al ElliottLovely. Also get in touch if you have an idea for The Truth, Lies and Work. Very much like to hear your thoughts. Okay, it's on to my favourite time of the week, which is our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. And also not only Leanne these days, we've got a couple of experts. We've got a couple of people from The Curve Group who talk about transactional HR and HR law. And then we've got Harry Kramer from Smart Clinic who talks about occupational health. These are two areas a lot of people seem to think, oh, occupational psychologist, she's going to know everything.
Leanne ElliottYes, we get so many questions about it. Yeah.
Al ElliottAnd so, and so we thought, no, let's bring in some actual experts in that. So question number one, how does one deal with imposter syndrome as a business owner? I added the one just to make it sound a bit fancier. I started my business in 2021 after running someone else's company for a decade. It's gone better than I could have imagined. We're growing fast. The team is thriving. Looks like a success, but some days I wake up and I feel like I don't deserve any of it. Like somehow I've got away with something. It knocks my confidence. I can't always shake it. Do other business owners feel this too? And if you have been through it, how'd you get past it? Ooh, Lee, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottFirst of all, let's not say imposter syndrome and suggest there's something wrong with you. Okay. Let's use a proper term, which is imposter phenomenon.
Al ElliottOh, okay. But syndrome's easier to, slightly easier to sell, to spell.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is slightly easier to spell. There's nothing wrong with you. The imposter syndrome There's 2 important things to know about— 3 important things. One, it's not a syndrome, it's a phenomenon. 2, it is so overly speculated in terms of how many people experience it. So, I think there's some studies that will go as high as 80% of adults have experienced imposter phenomenon. But actually, when you dig down into the real consistency in negative impact of this phenomenon on life, it's actually about 12%, 12 to 15%. So, you probably don't— likelihoods are statistically you don't have imposter phenomenon. If you do, this comes down to one key factor, which is basically your inability to internalize your success and achievements. Typically, we see that in women. Typically, we see that in high achievers. That is what imposter phenomenon actually is. So, it's your inability to internalise an achievement, which basically means that it's impacting your confidence, your self-efficacy, so how confident you feel in your ability to do your job, your sense of self. It can then lead to symptoms of burnout because you're overextending yourself to try and feel some type of, of kind of goal achievement. So, if that is genuinely what is happening, then there are things we can do to help you internalise the achievements that you have. Very simple things. So, for example, if you gather customer data, go through, or customer, what's it called when you get a— Review or a reference or a—
Al ElliottCustomer reviews.
Leanne ElliottReviews? Yeah, reviews will do.
Al ElliottI think we know what you're saying.
Leanne ElliottCustomer reviews. If you go through feedback, Or feedback from your team. Take a green highlighter and highlight everything that's positive. Take a pink highlighter and highlight everything that's negative, and just look at the colour difference. And I guarantee you, there's gonna be more green on that paper than there is pink. Other things, journaling. What are you proud of that day? What was hard that you overcame? What are you grateful for in terms of what went right? What's gonna be your focus of challenge tomorrow? What was your win of the day?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd all these things are going to add up and add up. And again, you can look back and read it because, because Amy 7 days ago was probably really proud of something that she achieved that day, but that sense of achievement has worn off. But that's not to say it wasn't important and we shouldn't continue to internalise that achievement. So, there's lots of really cool self-coaching things that you can do. If this is getting to a point where it's very, very debilitating, I would recommend that you speak to a coach or a therapist or a clinician if this is seriously taking an impact on your mental health, which imposter phenomenon in its truest form can and will. The other thing to remember is, yeah, it's totally normal to feel like you were just making it up. This is actually a thinking error. It's where we lean into kind of behavioral—
Al ElliottDid you say thinking error?
Leanne ElliottThinking error, yeah. Behavioral, what's the word, counseling.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottUm, which is thinking error. Phonism is basically imposter phenomenon. I feel like I'm a fake. I feel like someone's going to call me out soon. I feel like I'm going to get discovered. Um, and it's an error because there are plenty of things that have happened to put us in that position where we've got enough credibility to have been put in that position. Um, so yeah, it's a really interesting thing. And you know what, I'd get curious about it rather than just seeing it as a, as a, oh, I'm not meant to be here, someone's going to find me out. I'd get curious about actually the the phenomenon itself and what it means and what it actually looks like and how you can manage it. Because I think that certainly helped me deal with those moments of feeling like an imposter at times, knowing that kind of that's what is just kind of cognitively, behaviourally going on in my brain and what to do about it.
Al ElliottAs a business owner, I think it's good to have a little bit of imposter phenomenon because otherwise you're like, oh, I've got it all worked out. And even the Musks of the world, well, actually maybe not the Musks because to be fair, if you are somewhere on the psychopath Uh, but the majority of people who are successful at business will always go, well, there's someone who is more successful than me. And there is empirical evidence that there is someone more successful than you. Um, however, it depends. You should use it as a motivation, not a demotivation. So if you, if, if, if this really, really bothers you that there are loads of people out there who feel like they're doing so much better than you, then you should be doing something about it. Yeah. Then ignore what I just said and compare yourself to yourself last year. And that's who you're comparing yourself to, not other people. Because if you can't cope with that tension that it creates, that's created in your mind when you see someone who's doing better than you and that has a negative impact on you, don't compare yourself to other people like that way. However, if that tension then results in you making yourself better, then definitely do that. And just embrace the, the, the imposter phenomenon and just accept it never ever goes away. I'm, I'm afraid to say that, but well, no, not ever because I've got a psychologist sitting opposite me. I can't say, I can't say—
Leanne ElliottAbsolute. We don't like absolutes.
Al ElliottBut I can say it's very unlikely to go away. And if you use it, you can use it for your, for good, not for evil, personally.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottOkay, Leanne, onto question number 2. Um, what kind of workplace adjustments can I expect after an ADHD diagnosis? I've recently been diagnosed with ADHD. and told my employer. To their credit, they've brought in occupational health to support me. I work remotely most of the time with occasional travel for meetings and training. I'm curious what kind of reasonable adjustments might actually be recommended in this kind of role. I struggle a bit with focus in long meetings, sometimes hyperfocus on tasks, and often delay returning calls because I'm juggling a lot. So what should I expect from the process and what kind of support is realistic and appropriate in a remote-first job? I think you are gonna say, Leanne, it doesn't matter if it's remote-first or not, it's, it's still the same thing. But anyway, Leigh, do you have thoughts on this, or do we need to defer to someone else?
Leanne ElliottBoth. First of all, we are going to go to our friend Harry Kramer over at SmartClinic, who are the experts in occupational health and do help small businesses provide these services for a very affordable price. We're not sponsored. We're not, honestly, we're not. It's just a really good service. But let's go and hear what Harry has to say.
Al ElliottWell, you won't be surprised to hear that the amount of ADHD diagnoses that are being presented to to employers are sharply on the rise at the moment. It does pose quite a challenge. So, yes, you're right. It is really great that your company have asked for occupational health to be involved, because ultimately, they are the experts. Now, to answer your question, what workplace adjustments should you expect? I would initially say that it's important for you to manage your expectations here. I would not recommend you expect anything. There are 2 good reasons for this. Firstly, it's possible that you are covered by a piece of legislation called the Equality Act 2010, because your ADHD may be classed as a disability in this context. Don't worry too much about the phrase disability. It can sound alarming because someone with ADHD may not consider themselves to be disabled in the traditional sense, and you may be right. But what it does mean is it means that you have an impairment that is long-term and it affects your day-to-day functioning. That therefore prospectively means that you are covered by the Equality Act. Now, if you are covered by the Equality Act, and the reason that this is relevant is it means that your employer has to implement what's called reasonable adjustments. I'm guessing you've heard the phrase because you've mentioned it in your question. Occupational health will advise on what adjustments they would consider, which may mean amending schedules or providing written summaries of things, or allowing some quiet time with no meetings, or letting you wear noise-cancelling headphones, or—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottMaybe even adjusting some of your work-related targets, for example. I can't be too exact here without knowing more about you and your job role and your symptoms, of course, too. However, it is for your employer to decide whether they would consider these adjustments to be reasonable or not. It could be, it could be that these adjustments would be too much for your employer to be able to consider. For example, it could be that they were too expensive or too impractical to accommodate. So having your diagnosis now doesn't give you a divine right to have all the adjustments you ever asked for, but it certainly does help you and your employer to begin the journey of providing a little bit more support at work, uh, and giving you every opportunity to be successful when you can.
Leanne ElliottFabulous advice from Harry there. Um, I think just a few points to kind of, kind of emphasize for you to have a think about. First of all, ADHD wouldn't necessarily be immediately classified as a disability, but if you choose to classify it as a disability, you have agency in this. You are protected by the Equality Act, which is where you're gonna get much more support in terms of reasonable adjustments. 2, I like that advice in terms of not having many expectations going into this. Um, and I think that's fair in, in terms of, of the rate of ADHD that's being diagnosed, potentially the lack of understanding from organizations or the lack of resources in terms of You're being able to provide adjustments. And I think finally what I'd say is, this is a really great time to educate yourself now as well in your diagnosis and your relationship with it and the types of things that are going to help. So, for example, body doubling is something that works really well for people with ADHD and other types of neurodiverse conditions, which is basically where you'll sit next to somebody to do tasks that just feel too hard to focus on. And just that physical proximity of being next to somebody can actually help you be more productive in those moments. So, get curious, start educating yourself, and start experimenting in terms of what will work well for you, because your employer's also gonna love it if you can go to them and go, it really helps when I do this. Is this something we can work in? How's that all work? So, yeah, I think it's, it's also remembering that you are an active member in this process too.
Al ElliottExcellent advice. Go and check out smartclinic.com. For more of that. Okay, question number 2. How do I talk to a top— sorry, this is question number 3. How do I talk to a top performer who's completely switched off? So this person is managing a product team of 10. One of the engineers is hands down the best performer. They're fast, sharp, do great work, but lately they've just checked out. So they barely engage, there's no input, and when asked directly, they just say, yeah, looks fine. Technically, they're still delivering, but they've got zero interest in the mission, the team, or even their own progression. I've tried recognition. I've tried giving them a project to lead. I've even brought up promotion, but nothing seems to make a difference. They note the only time this person does light up is talking about personal stuff, like building their own gaming PC. I'm worried it's burnout, but I don't want to come at it the wrong way and make it feel like I'm accusing them of slacking off. Leanne, how would I start this kind of conversation?
Leanne ElliottIt sounds as though you've tried lots of workplace type stuff, which is brilliant. Giving them a project to lead, talking about their future, giving them lots of recognition. If nothing's landed, then it seems to me like it's a more personal life change that has impacted this shift in engagement. And that really comes down to having a conversation with them about what that could be. Saying, I've noticed a change in your behaviour the last few months. It started around this time. Is anything going on? How many things that I can help you with, support you with, or I can put you in touch with somebody who can support you with it? It could be that— it could be a whole host of reasons. It could be they've had a death in the family. That's something that often brings into focus what work means to us within our lives. It could be that they've got a health condition. It could be that they've gone through a breakup. There could be lots of things that are happening in their personal life that has just shifted what work means to them at the moment. And there are Obviously, then depending what it is, there's going to be various different ways you can support them through it. The big clue for me here is building their own gaming PC, and that's when they light up. Sounds like somebody has a side hustle.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSounds like that side hustle might be going well, or the side hustle is just what they want their focus to be on. They're entrepreneurial, they're a developer, this is what brings them joy. And yes, this is what we would typically call moral burnout, when your values, your aspirations, your dreams, your Everything isn't fully aligned with the organisation you're currently working for. And that dissonance takes a bit longer in terms of having a negative impact, the tension having a negative impact, than something like overwork and exhaustion and lack of resources, that type of thing. But it will eventually lead to burnout. So, yes, you might be starting to see signs of this in terms of detachment from work. It doesn't sound like they're They're not engaged, but they're not— they're saying it looks fine. They're not just, you know, criticizing the idea. So, it seems to me if it is an element of burnout, it's very early and it's in this detachment from work area, which could also be explained by them wanting to invest in something else. So, I think it's having an honest conversation about what's going on in their personal life, if there's anything there that's happened that they need support with. Yeah.
Al ElliottAnd then, I think it's having a conversation about what's going on in their work life.
Leanne ElliottAnd in terms of their own aspirations, and this is really important also from a succession planning perspective, if they are a high-performing member of the team, the best MDs are going to know what their future people, what their people want to do in the future, including if their future doesn't include being in that business, or indeed in that sector, or industry, or job role. They're going to support that person in that journey, which can sound really strange, but actually, you're getting the most out of them and the most engaged version of them whilst they're in your business, and you know—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottWhen they're gonna move on and can handle a really smart, non-disruptive handover process. So, yeah, it's having a conversation with this person in terms of their personal life and their future aspirations, and be prepared for the fact that they might need some support and they may not wanna stay in your organisation long-term. That doesn't mean they can't continue to contribute now.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. I think what, what you've just said there, there's, there's one piece of evidence here. That, that are a clue. It says the only time they light up is talking about personal stuff, like building their own gaming PC. So you've now discovered that it's not that they are necessarily like overall depressed or there's anything like that. There's something which excites them. So that would be to me, okay, I wanna have a conversation. I wanna take 'em for a coffee. Maybe not take 'em for coffee, but go to the canteen or have a coffee at the desk or something. Say, what is it? I've— you keep talking about gaming PC. Tell me more about it. What is it that excites you? Because it could be that They're just bored with what they've been doing. I mean, it says here, you've said here, they're fast to do great work, hands down best performer. Maybe for them, they're just like, it's not burnout. It's just like, oh, well, the challenge has become boring now, particularly with engineers. They love to solve difficult problems. If they've solved that problem, then now it's just maintenance. Perhaps they need to move to a different role. Perhaps they're just, they need to go and find a different problem. And it sounds very much like that.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. And what you're talking about there is job crafting.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottHow you can, you can understand what motivates somebody and potentially build it into a different role within the business. Also an excellent technique. You, you should do the surgery questions, you know, it's so good.
Al ElliottWell, after 250 episodes and what's that, somewhere, somewhere close to 600 episodes.
Leanne ElliottHappy 250!
Al ElliottHappy 250, yes!
Leanne ElliottAh!
Al ElliottHey, 250. So people would say we were—
Leanne ElliottThere's a novelty in time lesson there, isn't there?
Al ElliottOkay, I think that's everything for now. Anything else to add before we let these lovely people go?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottJoin us on Thursday for— we've got another interview with another great person. Oh my goodness me, this person, I guarantee you have this person's company's product in your garage. I guarantee it. I guarantee it. This person is very famous for an awful lot of things. Um, and if I give you any— give you a clue, perhaps some of you might know that, um, there was 40 attempts at this particular product and it's referred to in the name. Leave it at that. See you on Thursday.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
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