Truth, Lies & Work

Episode 264 · 6 January 2026 · 35:34

How to Measure Culture Like a Business Metric - Great Mondays Radio X Truth, Lies and Work

How to Measure Culture Like a Business Metric - Great Mondays Radio X Truth, Lies and Work

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  1. Leanne's favourite definition of culture: 'The worst behaviours tolerated'

    panel interview#culture#leadership#workplace

  2. Why 50+ definitions of culture leave leaders stuck

    panel interview#culture#leadership#definitions

  3. The biggest misunderstanding: culture isn't a ping-pong table

    panel interview#culture#misconceptions#workplace

  4. Why an awesome workplace is fundamentally good for business

    panel interview#business#culture#workplace

  5. The right data: psychosocial risk factors explained

    panel interview#psychosocial-risk#data#workplace

  6. Beyond surveys: how to actually gather quality insights

    panel interview#surveys#data#insights

  7. Innovation vs. efficiency: how strategy dictates which factors to prioritise

    panel interview#innovation#efficiency#strategy

  8. Why results lag (and why managers matter more than anything)

    panel interview#results#managers#leadership

  9. Building internal capability: it's critical for survival

    panel interview#internal-capability#organizational-development#survival

  10. The free HSE resource every leader should know about

    panel interview#hse#resources#health-safety

Show notes

How to Measure Culture Like a Business Metric (Rebroadcast) — Leanne on Great Mondays Radio

This week: A special feed drop from Great Mondays Radio! Our very own Chartered Occupational Psychologist, Leanne Elliott, takes the guest chair as host Josh Levine (Work Futurist, author, and culture consultant) interviews her on creating amazing workplaces.

In this candid conversation, Leanne and Josh dismantle the myths around company culture and redefine it as a strategic, business-critical system rooted in behavioral science. If you're tired of treating culture as a "nice-to-have" or a collection of perks, this episode is a must-listen for business leaders, managers, and HR professionals.

🧠 What We Cover

A Clear Definition of Culture Leanne shares her preferred definition of culture by John Amaechi: "The worst behaviours tolerated." This makes culture behavior-based — a living, breathing thing that everyone can be responsible for.

The Biggest Misunderstanding Why do business leaders mistakenly think culture is something physical (like a cool office, ping-pong table, or the general vibe around the place) rather than something psychological and scientific?

Moving Beyond Fluff All the data and science show that building an awesome workplace is fundamentally good for business. It's great for the bottom line, customers, and growth trajectory.

The Right Data Leanne advocates for collecting data on psychosocial risk factors (relationships, control over work, trust, resources, change management) because they are transactional elements that directly impact how people think, feel, and behave.

Innovation vs. Efficiency An organization's strategy (e.g., chasing efficiency vs. relying on innovation) dictates which psychosocial factors to prioritize. For example, innovation requires nurturing psychological safety to allow people to make mistakes safely.

Building Internal Capability Building internal capability for people and culture is critical for survival in the next decade due to increasing complexity and the rate of change. A C-level leader must own this responsibility.

🛠️ Practical Resources

Oblong Consultancy (Leanne Elliott's Company)

HSE Management Standards (UK Health and Safety Executive) Leanne recommends this completely free resource for understanding and measuring key psychosocial risk factors at work.

📬 Connect with Josh Levine (Guest Host)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 102 1234 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Ale, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottWell, it's the first week in January and we're on holiday this week, northeast Italy if you're curious. So we're gonna bring you a great interview with Leanne on Great Mondays Radio. You're probably gonna remember Josh Levine as our guest on episode 239. He was also one of the predictions as well, which would be episode 262 or 263, but listen to them both 'cause they're really good. Well, he is here in the host's chair interviewing Leanne on creating amazing workplaces. If you enjoy this episode, and I'm pretty sure you will, then you should go and subscribe to Great Mondays Radio wherever you get your podcasts. Also go and check out his great YouTube channel, which is @GreatMondays on YouTube. The link will be in the show notes, obviously. And then if you wanna learn a bit more about what he does and more about Great Mondays, go to greatmondays.com. Okay, here is the interview. We'll see you on Thursday. I'm off for an Aperol. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot Because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Josh LevineIt's Great Mondays Radio. I'm Josh Levine, your host, founder of Great Mondays. We help executives from hypergrowth technology and social enterprise organizations build cultures that attract, engage, and retain top talent. If you'd like to be a guest on our program, hang out for about 20 minutes and I'll tell you how. Hey, everybody! Welcome back to Great Mondays Radio. As I have said for a long time, company culture is really important. And if you're listening to this, you probably believe that's true. But today's guest is here to share with us some of the trials and tribulations that she's been through when it comes to organizations not understanding what culture is and how they can kind of get lost in the ill definitions. And maybe she's got some, some problems to pick at with me. And I'm excited to have a colleague on, Leanne Elliott. Welcome to Great Mondays Radio.
Leanne ElliottThank you so much for having me.
Josh LevineSo, Leanne, you're the co-host of— the host, the co-host, which is now all— I've now dubbed it co-host— co-host of Truth, Lies and Work, the UK's number one business and management podcast, which is awesome. So thank you for coming on here because you are a professional and have such reach. It's amazing. You're also an occupational psychologist and you have a group called Oblong helping business leaders create amazing cultures. So in your experience, Leanne, what is, what is going on in the world of business when it comes to thinking and talking about culture?
Leanne ElliottWhat I enjoy about what's happening in the business world right now is how we're talking about culture. That is a big win, right?
Josh LevineFinally, finally.
Leanne ElliottI know, I know. You know, when I started my career, what I did was confined to, to HR consultancies, maybe some big corporates, maybe something in, in the public sector. Um, now everyone's talking about culture. And that's awesome, and I'm here for it. My slight issue though is that I worry that because we're talking about it so much without much understanding at times, culture is becoming a buzzword.
Josh LevineIt does happen that way. I mean, I think there's a lot, we've seen it with design is, you know, finally it was in the ether and then it became a buzzword, and then innovation, and even back in the day, management was a buzzword. So, how do we push through? So, okay, well, what's, so you and I agree, Thank God we're finally talking about it. I don't know about you, but when I first started talking about culture in 2008, I would go, I told everybody, hey, I'm really interested in this thing called culture. And they would turn to me and say, do you mean like ballet or like opera? And I was like, are you fucking serious? What are you talking? Of course, no. But there was no reference for it. So I do appreciate that we now have an awareness. And we're talking about it. But when you say buzzword, that's got this negative connotation of, I'm going to say something for effect without having impact. What is happening? Why is it occurring? What's going on there?
Leanne ElliottThe problem starts, I think, is that as occupational psychologists, organizational psychologists, same thing, it's what we call it in the UK, org psych is what we call it elsewhere in the world, we don't have a shared definition that we agree on.
?Hmm.
Leanne ElliottThere's more than 50 definitions of culture out there. So, if we can't agree on a definition, how do we then navigate how to help organizations create an effective culture? So, I think that's, that's the, the first problem. My preferred definition of culture is by an incredible psychologist called John Amici, who defines culture as the worst behaviors tolerated.
Josh LevineMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd I love that for 2 reasons. One, it makes it behavior-based. We can, we can influence behavior, we can change behavior, which means that culture is a living, breathing thing that we can all be responsible for and all shape. It also puts the light on the worst behaviors tolerated in that an effective culture, a positive culture, a productive culture, however you wanna define what a good culture is, doesn't have room for toxicity, doesn't have room for behaviours that are counterproductive to both the individual experience, the employee experience, and what the organisation is trying to achieve. So, for me, that definition is really a nice one, because it brings in things that we can change, things that we won't tolerate. And as leaders, if our focus is on the things that we won't tolerate, the behaviours we will not tolerate, That is an incredible first step to creating an awesome workplace culture.
Josh LevineI love it. I used that statement, I think, just last week. I was talking to somebody, and I do find it very powerful. My definition has a similar goal, and I say it's the cause and effect of every decision that we make. So, behavior-based, absolutely. And I think of it like a system so that it trades a little bit on that, hey, it can influence it in a good way or a bad way. So that's how I think about it. But I do like that we're talking about behaviors. So what is the misunderstanding that most business leaders— what is it that most business leaders get wrong about culture? When they say culture, certainly they, I don't know, maybe they are using it as a buzzword and just trying to quote something. I prefer to think that folks are doing their best, maybe naively. What's the biggest misunderstanding that you've seen in your experience?
Leanne ElliottThe biggest misunderstanding I've seen, and I thought we were getting over it, but now I'm not so sure, is that culture is something tangible in that it is the offices we build, the cool break rooms that we have, the ping pong table, the general vibe around the place. That, for me, I thought we were getting over it until we saw all the return-to-office mandates and the claims from senior leadership that we can't create the desired culture, we can't create collaboration, communication without people being in the office.
Josh LevineMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottDon't get me wrong, there are challenges that come with having a remote workforce, a hybrid workforce. Absolutely. And it requires An incredible amount of intention from leadership as to how to nurture those relationships and the trust we need to see in our organisations. But I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding that culture is something almost physical. Culture is psychological. And if we think of culture as psychological, as behaviour, culture is science. It's not fluffy. It's not a nice to have. It is, you have a culture, whether you, whether you know it or not.
Josh LevineThat's right.
Leanne ElliottYou might not know what that culture is, but it's, it's there because it is something that is formed from human behavior. And that's the psychology people. And that's the science of work.
Josh LevineThe science of work. Why? This is something that I've struggled with, right? So my, my whole pitch to the world Is that we need to start employing and deploying culture as a strategic business advantage. It needs to be something that we treat like finance or IT. And the question I am asking is why? I mean, I have some hypotheses, but I'm going to ask you why Can't we— why can't— why are, why are people in business, business leaders or managers having a hard time wrapping their minds around that it is something beyond just the physical? Is it just that it's been that way for a long time? We haven't needed to think about it that way. What do you, what do you think is the challenge?
Leanne ElliottThe challenge stems from, and I'll take some accountability for this one, occupational psychologists, organizational psychologists aren't very well known. You ask the average person, what does an occupational psychologist do? They might go, oh, I don't know, something to do with occupational health.
Josh LevineYeah.
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure. So, there's a fundamental kind of misstep from the psychology community of, of being like, this is our space, this is our thing, this is what we do, and we can help you do it. And the big part of that, we're scientists. Scientists love data. You mentioned there finance and IT. What are the 2 big things they have in common? They create strategy and implement strategy based on data, based on insights. Same with marketing, same with sales. For some reason, we're not collecting the right kind of data or the richness of data we need about how people are thinking and feeling within our business.
?Hmm.
Leanne ElliottTo understand how to best influence that. with, to have the most positive impact. And you're absolutely right in that this isn't fluff, this isn't nice to have. Even if you are the most cynical business owner leader in the world and you think this is fluff, trust me when I say all the data shows us, all the science shows us that this is just fundamentally good for business. Great for your bottom line, it's great for your customers, it's great for your growth trajectory. Name a commercial metric that'll be better If you're creating an awesome workplace for your people.
Josh LevineYes. And there's 2 things that are, that I have come up against in that logic chain. Um, one is what data do we collect and how do we collect it? And I'll get to the second, I'll get to the second after we get through that.
Leanne ElliottSo the first, what data do we need to collect?
Josh LevineWhat do we need to collect? And, and Isn't it like, um, yes, I'll just, yes. What data do we need to— Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAs a psychologist, the data I say that you need to collect are what we call the psychosocial risk factors within the workplace. And that from a science theoretical perspective is much more connected with research in employee engagement and wellbeing rather than culture. And this is where I think the shift is needed. Culture, of course, is a hugely researched area of psychology. But as we've said, we can't decide on a definition, and it all feels a bit intangible, and it all feels a little bit hard to get your hands around as a business leader.
Josh LevineYeah.
Leanne ElliottTo, to really have an impact on. Whereas employee engagement or understanding the psychosocial risk factors, they're really simple transactional elements of our business. How are relationships faring? Within the business? How much control do people have over how they work? How much trust do they have in their colleagues, in their peers, in their managers? What resources do they have available to do their job, including the skills that they need to do their job? What development opportunities do they have? What's the mission of the organisation? How do they connect with that? And how does that, how does their role, how do they understand their role in influencing and pushing that mission delivery forward? How is change managed in an organization? These are all psychosocial risk factors that we know directly impact how people think and feel in our business, that directly impact how people behave within our business, and that in turn will directly impact the outcomes of our business.
Josh LevineAnd is the only way to get the data through surveys? Is that what you're gonna— I don't remember. So, I did take psychology in college, and I can't remember what it's called, but there's sort of this Direct measurement and indirect measurement, right? Direct measurement is like how many steps you take. It's inarguable. Indirect is that your human brain comes in between the question and the answer, which is how much trust do you have? And, you know, or how safe do you feel sharing your— right? And so you have this big, big juicy you know, bit of organ, your brain, in between the question and the answer. And I just wonder if the methodology is part of our problem, question mark?
Leanne ElliottYes, the methodology is absolutely part of our problem because I think the word survey is triggering for most people in organizations.
Josh LevineYeah, that's, yeah, that's, I think that's probably why I used it.
Leanne ElliottYes. Yeah, no, another one.
Josh LevineAnother survey? I'm not completing that.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's because there's, there's 2 things to it, right? There's not surveys, not all surveys are created equal.
Josh LevineThat's correct.
Leanne ElliottAnd my biggest advice to any business leader who is looking at gathering these insights and what we'd call quantitative data, so more numbers-driven data that you'd get from a survey questionnaire, is what is the psychological model that's sitting behind that survey? What is the intention of the questions? What are they measuring? What are the what we call construct validity within the questions you are asking. And there are loads of question banks out there that have been studied and scrutinised and evaluated as effective questions to ask to get an answer to the exact thing that you're asking about. And the problem is there are a lot of surveys and platforms out there that are very popular and very well known and from very respectable companies. That, can I find the science behind them? No. And I've tried really freaking hard, Josh. I've tried really hard to understand the actual psychological model that's behind that, what we'd call the predictive model of employee engagement. And what I mean by that is we can follow the science through. It's like a flowchart, right? So, if we know that people are experiencing positive relationships in their workplace, we know that that, through research and through study, we know that that means that people are more likely to be enjoy positive job satisfaction, more likely to experience psychological safety. That means they're gonna be more agile to change, and that means that companies are gonna be more innovative and typically more profitable. So, we can follow through the science. If I don't know what that model is, if I can't then look at the data that has been spun out from this questionnaire and go, right, okay, my people aren't quite happy with how they're experiencing relationships within the business, and I can also see in the data—
?Sure.
Leanne ElliottThat that's being reflected in job satisfaction and our speed to market is a bit low at the minute. I followed that through. So, I know then that if I invest time in interventions and activities that are gonna improve relationships within the organisation, I should be able to follow the data through 6, 12 months later when we run it again, when we evaluate what we've done and see the impact.
?Hmm.
Leanne ElliottIf I don't know what that impact that data is gonna have, if I try and manipulate it, then it's the blind leading the blind. What does that even mean? And the problem is, is that so many of these surveys will spill out data like this, that business leaders go, I don't really know what to do with this. I don't really know what to change to have the desired impact, so I'll don't do anything. And then employees go, well, I answered this 100-question survey, nothing's changed, and nothing's been done. I then lose trust in this process. So, next time it comes around, I'm just clicking buttons until it's done, if I fill it in at all.
Josh LevineDo I have to, or does one have to define what outcomes outcome we are looking for, because there are some organizations that want efficiency and some organizations that want innovation. And, you know, and, and, and then there's, there's just also like team efficacy or something like that. When in your expertise, do you— does one need to— does the model change? Does the logic change depending on what we're trying to achieve at the organization.
Leanne ElliottYes, the logic changes, the model, not necessarily. Because if it's a strong, robust model that would've been studied for decades in terms of how this, how this all plays out and how these psychosocial factors influence human behavior in the workplace and those outcomes. You bring up a really good example in terms of efficiency versus innovation, and it's really hard to have both. Actually, because it's a, it's a very different, very different thing because innovation isn't typically very efficient because you need to kind of make mistakes.
Josh LevineNo, you need to cycle through. Yeah, that's, that's right.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. So then that comes down to the strategy of the organization, which is where it all ties together. This isn't a standalone area of organizational life. This should feed directly into your operational strategy, into your business strategy, into where you want to take your company in the next 2 to 5 years? Because if you're a company that success relies on innovation, then yes, you're gonna wanna prioritise those psychosocial factors that are gonna really nurture psychological safety, allow people to make mistakes safely. And that'll, a lot of that's gonna come from the relationships people have with their managers. If you are chasing efficiency, Yeah. then that's very much more steeped in something like resources. What are the structures we have in the organisation? How do they flow together? Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
?And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
?Seamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
?Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
?It can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
?I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
?Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
?Keep that in.
Josh LevineSo wouldn't you ask some different questions? I'm going to continue to push back, right? Because you're like, well, The logic changes, but not the model. So, let's continue on this innovation versus efficiency. Aren't I going to be, like you just said, like, isn't, aren't we going to ask different questions? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what model might mean. Educate, educate me. Tell me, tell me what I don't understand, because it seems like you need to change the, what, what you're asking.
Leanne ElliottIt's not that you need to change what you're asking. You just need to understand what that means. So, Typically, if we take relationships, relationships in an organisation are typically very dependent or interdependent. Dependent means that I'm looking to my manager very frequently. I need their advice, their guidance, their more hands-on support in terms of what we're achieving. So, in that scenario, it's probably likely to be an organisation that is fairly compliance-based. Think financial services. Yeah, we can have innovation within financial services, but we have very strict guidelines that we need to work within.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, in that scenario, we're probably going to have quite a dependent-style relationship in our organisations, where people will need to feed into each other, check on each other, check those levels of governance and compliance to get— make sure those outcomes are delivered in the way they need to be. In an organisation that might be more tech-based, for example, we're much more likely to see, or in startups especially, much more likely to see interdependent relationships. Where it's very much like what I do feeds into you, but it's not absolute in terms of if I mess up, everything breaks down the line. It's that I have my autonomy of control around my workload and what I can do. And that is more likely to breed innovation because there's more autonomy within that. There's more, more trial and error within that. There's more freedom to—
?Mm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottTo work differently within your team, within the context of a large organisation. So, it's not that we're asking different questions about— that will help us understand if relationships are dependent or interdependent. It's understanding then the relationships we do have, is that serving our organisation? If we have relationships that are very interdependent in an organisation that very much requires very strong and strict governance, that's likely to cause a problem. And that's where we'll typically see organizations that will derail through some scandal, because you've got pockets of people working very independently in an organism where they actually need to be much more dependent on the ebb and flow of other departments within the organization. So, Enron would be a very famous example of that.
Josh LevineExactly. That's really Interesting and clarifying for sure. My second question about the difficulty of actually demonstrating the business value, and my question or my hypothesis is the distance between the cause and the effect. So to me, One of the things that— one of the ways of thinking is that it's just too far in time between improve— it takes too much to improve the way a team works and actually to see the results. And it's not as immediate or something like I— there's sort of a lagging indicator. And, and I wonder if— and again, this is just my guess, educated guess, that one of the problems around the stories that we tell about culture is I just don't feel it, right? Like, I just don't feel it soon enough for it to actually be like, oh yeah, this is something we really need to care about.
Leanne ElliottYeah, you're not wrong. I think the main issue with this in, in organizational life in general, in large organizations, in small organizations, evaluation is not a process that we engage in very often when it comes to people and culture. And this is, again, why I always advocate for working with a psychologist. As a psychologist, we're ethically bound to embed some kind of evaluation process within the consultancy or within the project that we run, because we want to collect that data. We want the science. We want to see the impact. That's how we prove what we know happens within an organisation. And evaluations can happen, big evaluations can happen at a 12-month point. A check-in might come at a 6-month point. Any other project in a business is also going to have those more informal check-in points every week, every fortnight, every month. And that's where it comes down to the quality of managers within your business. Managers have the single biggest impact on anything employee experience, whether it be culture, wellbeing, performance, productivity, all of it. So our managers are the people that help us deliver those regular check-ins, evaluations, where we'll be able to collect more immediate real-time data to help assure that this project is moving forward in a positive way. And again, it's collecting data around the outcomes. So, how is that impacting our absenteeism, our presenteeism, our performance rates, our customer satisfaction? There's so many metrics that we can collect to see the impact of what we're doing in terms of people and culture. And as well, if we're using a predictive model of employee engagement, we'll know which metrics we wanna be measuring specifically and looking out for.
Josh LevineMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think it comes down to that. None of this stuff is very complicated. It's not rocket science, you know. Typically, you treat people well, you give them the tools and resources they need to do their job, they believe in what they're doing within the organisation, things are, things are probably going to be tickety-boo, and you'll be fine. But digging into that deeper, Yeah. it's science. It's, it's, it's, it's quite detailed and it needs a lot of attention. And I think it's what frustrates me is that organisations, as you quite rightly said, it's not as immediate. So, They're not as willing to invest the time and energy upfront to allow people the time and energy to collect that data, collect that, to conduct that evaluation. But again, my frustration comes with the people in your business is probably one of your, if not the biggest expense in terms of how much you pay them and how much money you're losing if it's not working.
?Yeah.
Leanne ElliottYou think about in terms of marketing, in terms of IT, you know, also, also huge cost to our business, but the amount of data that goes into that, you know, really rigid project management that goes into that, that they will quite happily do a 2 to 5 year IT technology transformation project. That's just the way it is. And when that's finished, they could do another one because technology's moved on again.
Josh LevineMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's the same with people. It requires that time and attention, short and long term, particularly in a world that is moving so fast and our employee experience is changing so quickly.
Josh LevineIf this is as important as you and I believe it is, does it need to be embedded? And I'll go back to where I started. Does it need to be a group, a department, have a C-level leader in it? I mean, do we need that? Because, you know, you and I are sitting from the outside.
?Right?
Josh LevineWe're looking in and we're consultants. We're like, hey, you need this. And look, I come from— all right, I'll reveal a little bit about my background. I come from the world of design and brand. And for years in that community was like, design is really powerful for business. And so the business leaders that would get it would then go hire agencies. Well, over the course of a decade in the 2000s, all of a sudden all of these tech companies built these groups, design groups, Internally. And that is, I think, how we actually get to see why we get to see such amazing digital products and really incredible brands out in the world now. I see a similar pattern, I think, or I hope that we can see this. So my question to you in your experience, like expert to expert here. Is that, is that really what we're gunning for? Is that the, is that what success looks like? Does that need to happen? Should that happen? What's your opinion about, about that learn, you know, building that capacity internally?
Leanne ElliottI believe that building that capacity internally is essential. It's critical. I'm not sure a business is gonna survive the next decade if they don't build that capability, because it's all becoming much more complicated now in terms of technology, in terms of the boundaries between work and life, in terms of the energy that we expend in our workplaces. What that looks like, I think, has room for individualisation. Smaller businesses, for example, I don't think you necessarily need to build that internal capability necessary. You can work with a great consultant and bring them in. You absolutely need to have somebody on the senior leadership team who owns that, who is there, that's their responsibility, whether that's an operations director or the, the MD. You need a senior leader to own that and to, and to be responsible and accountable for that. Because it is, well, if we know from the science of research, if the leadership team, senior leadership team doesn't buy into it, yeah, it's really hard. And you know that with any, any department, you know. Yeah. If the senior leadership aren't, those key stakeholders aren't bought in, then it's an uphill battle that you're probably gonna lose.
Josh LevineYeah.
Leanne ElliottIn terms of large organizations, It blows my mind that there are still so few organisations that will have a head of people and culture. You know, HR is aligned, but it's not the same. HR is much more, in traditional sense, much more transactional, and there are absolutely collaborations and connections that need to be made, and there are certainly a lot of HR professionals that get this stuff better than any CEO that I've ever met. Equally, I think this is a different area of expertise in that it is, you know how like data science became a thing and like technology and AI and machine learning started up and that sprouted these huge departments of data scientists? I think it's the same thing.
Josh LevineOh, that's a great point.
Leanne ElliottWe need almost like a people data scientist department capability that is gonna collect all this data. And it's not just gonna be quantifiable data, it's not just gonna be the numbers, it's gonna be having these conversations, having these interviews, having these observations. We're seeing lots of cool things now as well coming through where you can look at different comms that are happening within the organisation. But yeah, I think, I think it has to be because it's, it's becoming increasingly complicated, organisational life, and the rate of change. And as humans, if we just know one thing, we're really not very good at change. We know we have to change, we have to adapt to survive, but it's really fricking hard, and it takes a real toll on us physically and psychologically, actually. So, in a time where change is gonna happen even quicker, I just think we need it even more. And I think the organizations that get this are gonna be the organizations that thrive. And then when you throw AI into the whole conversation as well, I don't know how, we're behind already. We need to catch up.
?Wow.
Josh LevineYes. Amazing. This has been really, really revelatory, and I really appreciate you putting a finger on the data because, or the points of data and how it's done. Do you have any resources that you'd be willing to share? We can put some links in the show notes as well. How can people find out more about the how behind measurement and this process?
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. There is a UK-based organization called the Health and Safety Executive. It's part of a government agency that helps us make sure people are, are safe at work. They have their own model called the Management Standards, which covers the key psychosocial risk factors at work. It's a completely free resource. They also offer their 30-item questionnaire completely for free, analysis tool for free, handbook that comes with it. That's such a great starting point for anyone who's just trying to understand exactly what it is we're measuring and why that's important. I would always recommend that. Um, and then of course, as a plug to myself and my business at Oblong HQ, we do offer our own insights into that as well. And I'm always happy to have a free conversation with anyone who's curious and wants to learn more.
Josh LevineAmazing. Well, if your conversations are anything like the conversation we just had, I think it's well worth your free dollars to have it. Leanne Elliott, co-host of Truth, Lies and Work, the UK's number one management podcast. Listen in for more incredible insights. She's an occupational psychologist, or organizational psychologist, as we call it here in the States, of Oblong. You can learn and find out more about her podcast at truthliesandwork.com. Leanne Elliott, such a pleasure. Thank you for coming on Great Mondays Radio.
Leanne ElliottOh, thank you so much for having me.
Josh LevineThanks for listening to Great Mondays Radio. Hey, if you want to be a guest, Head over to radio.greatmondays.com. And if you think this episode was interesting and your friends and fans would enjoy it, please share on social media. And if you want to get more people to understand the power of company culture in business today, please rate and review Great Mondays Radio on your podcast feed. It really helps us reach more people. If you want to hear more candid conversations with culture leaders, Subscribe to Great Mondays Radio. I'd love to connect with you. Find me on LinkedIn at AKA Josh Levine, on YouTube at Great Mondays, and you can always email me, josh@greatmondays.com. Find out more about our work with hypergrowth technology and social enterprise organizations at greatmondays.com. I'm Josh Levine. Thanks for listening to Great Mondays Radio.
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