Episode 288 · 31 March 2026 · 53:01
The pink ice cream maker disaster. PLUS! A.I. assistants, the glass cliff and managing friends at work.
The pink ice cream maker disaster. PLUS! A.I. assistants, the glass cliff and managing friends at work.
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Story 1: Psychological sovereignty & the 2026 overwhelm
news roundup#psychological-sovereignty#2026-predictions#workplace-stress#burnout
Story 2: NotebookLM: your personal AI Mike Ross
news roundup#notebooklm#ai-tools#productivity#legal-tech
Story 3: The pink ice cream maker fiasco
news roundup#international-womens-day#marketing-fail#gender-equality#workplace-culture
Truth or Lie: The glass cliff
truth or lie#glass-cliff#leadership#gender-bias#career
Workplace Surgery: cash reserves & team resentment
workplace surgery#workplace-advice#team-resentment#cash-reserves#management
Workplace Surgery: managing an undermining friend
workplace surgery#workplace-advice#friendship#undermining#conflict-resolution
Workplace Surgery: balancing benefits with sustainability
workplace surgery#benefits#sustainability#workplace-policy#hr
Show notes
The Pink Ice Cream Maker Disaster, AI "Mike Ross" Assistants & The Glass Cliff
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) tackle the overwhelm of 2026 with "psychological sovereignty," Al shares his love letter to a hallucination-free AI tool, and a law firm's International Women's Day gift sparks a debate on performative inclusion. Plus, in Truth or Lie: is the glass cliff real? And in Workplace Surgery — managing friends who undermine you, cash reserves, and benefits balance.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Reclaiming your "psychological sovereignty" Feeling overwhelmed by the 2026 news cycle and the breakneck speed of life? Leanne introduces the concept of Psychological Sovereignty, based on the work of Dr. Emma Seppälä. It's about regaining control over your attention and agency rather than being pulled by external chaos. The dos: quiet your nervous system twice a day, move your body, hydrate, and protect your sleep. The don'ts: don't run on empty, overschedule, or stay glued to negative news 24/7. Source → | Dr. Emma Seppälä on LinkedIn →
2. NotebookLM: your personal AI "Mike Ross" Al shares his "love letter" to NotebookLM, a free tool by Google that acts as a personal assistant that never hallucinates. By grounding the AI only in your uploaded documents, you can synthesize months of notes in minutes, create study guides, or even generate a podcast "Audio Overview" of your reports.
3. Inclusion or insult? The pink ice cream maker fiasco A law firm's International Women's Day gift of pink ice cream makers has sparked a debate on "performative inclusion." DEI expert Catherine Garrod weighs in on why gimmicks fail and how to move toward real impact — like parental leave and fair progression — instead of branded kitchen appliances. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: The Glass Cliff
Is it true that when women finally break the glass ceiling, they are handed leadership roles that are already failing?
The Evidence: Research from the University of Exeter suggests that companies are more likely to appoint women to boards following periods of poor share price performance.
The Verdict: TRUTH. While real-world corporate data is complex, experimental evidence consistently shows a tendency to select women for precarious roles — often as a signal for change or, more darkly, as a potential scapegoat.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- The Undermining Friend: How do you manage a close friend who now reports to you and has started making dismissive jokes in meetings?
- The Cash Resentment: Should you be worried if your team sees the company has healthy cash reserves?
- The Benefits Balance: How do you strike the balance between being a good employer (wellbeing days, stipends) and keeping the business sustainable?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottA law firm marked International Women's Day by sending female clients pink-branded ice cream makers. Some recipients loved it. Others said maybe next year they could add a Hoover and a washing-up brush.
Al ElliottAnd an apron.
Leanne ElliottSo when does a well-meaning gesture cross a line into completely missing the point?
Al ElliottAnd what if you could have a personal AI assistant that never hallucinates, remembers everything you ever told it, and can answer any question accurately in seconds? Well, it's not ChatGPT, it's not Claude. It does exist, it's completely free, and it's like having Mike Ross from Suits. More about how you can become Harvey Specter shortly.
Leanne ElliottGoddamn!
Al ElliottDo your goddamn job!
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, we're looking at the glass cliff. The claim is that when women finally break through to senior leadership, they're more likely to be handed roles that are already failing. So are women being left to pick up the pieces, or is this just a bit of a conspiracy theory?
Al ElliottAnd in this week's Workplace Surgery, one listener asks, how do you manage a close friend who now reports to you and has started undermining you in meetings?
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name's Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottLet's get into it right after a quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform. Every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello. Hello. Welcome back. I got my intro wrong, Leanne. I say, my name's Al, I'm a business owner. I'm here to ask the questions. I know, I forgot. I forgot.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, you ask, I answer.
Al ElliottThere you go. That would be a great podcast name. What have you been up to this week, Leanne? I'm asking you this as if I don't know, as if I haven't spent every single waking second with you. There's no undertone there at all.
Leanne ElliottLooking forward to a 4-day week. That's nice.
Al ElliottThis week?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWhy?
Leanne ElliottIt's Good Friday on Friday.
Al ElliottOh, it is. Yeah, it is. So for half of where we live in Bosnian Herzegovina, there's going to be People aren't gonna be working. The other half are gonna be busy doing stuff, aren't they?
Leanne ElliottYeah, well, I think it's actually a third because I believe that Orthodox Christians have a different date for Easter.
Al ElliottOh, really?
Leanne ElliottI think so. Shall I do some Googling while we're live?
Al ElliottWhile we're live. This is happening live, folks. In case you didn't know, we live in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And if you didn't know anything about Bosnia, then it is kind of split into 3 roughly. God, I'm gonna get in trouble for this. But roughly speaking, it's sort of like a third of the country is Serbian Orthodox Christian, a third of it is Christian Croatian, and a third of it is Muslim Bosniak, which makes for quite a cool city, Mostar, because it's kind of split down the middle. So you go one side in Eid, you go one side and there's lights and all kinds of stuff going on. The other side is just a bit, you know, a bit cooler.
Leanne ElliottIt's a neutral. It's a very vibrant multicultural city to be in.
Al ElliottYes. Anyway, moving on from that.
Leanne ElliottBut no, it's true. Orthodox Easter is actually on the 12th of April. They use a Julian calendar and a different calculation for the spring equinox.
Al ElliottIs the julienne calendar where you cut it very, very into very, very thin slices? Is that like a julienne calendar?
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly.
Al ElliottExactly.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, shredded.
Al ElliottLeanne, should we move on?
Leanne ElliottLet's.
Al ElliottOkay, so I think it's time for your favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottCue the jingle, Al.
Al ElliottJingle's being cued. What have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottI think we need some kind of doomsday jingle this week, please, because is anyone else just starting to freak out about the state of the world?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottLike, it's just like one thing after another, isn't it?
Al ElliottI don't read the news.
Leanne ElliottGood.
Al ElliottAnd that has helped me massively.
Leanne ElliottI mean, I try not to read too much of the news beyond what's happening in the workplace news, but you just, some things you just can't, you can't ignore, Al.
Al ElliottOh, what's happening now?
Leanne ElliottWell, Trump.
Al ElliottOh God.
Leanne ElliottHe's going off on one.
Al ElliottWhat's he done?
Leanne ElliottHe's just, just starting another war and being like, Europe, who's with me? And we're all like, ah, ah.
Al ElliottDid you see that thing? I saw it on Twitter. And it's like, it's, it's, um, it had got a couple of like, I think there's a French really sort of nerdy dance duo, maybe in their 40s. Um, and it's like Trump asked, Trump going to war? And then it just said the rest of Europe. And these 2, these guys are just one having a cigarette and he's a cup of coffee and they're like dancing away to this remix of like 1990s stuff. And that's basically Europe. We're all just drinking coffee and going, carry on, mate. Yeah, you're on your own.
Leanne ElliottYeah, no, absolutely. So of course that's having a massive impact on Oil prices, which means petrol's more expensive and energy's more expensive and food's more expensive. And this month in the UK, council tax is going up, water bills are going up. Then there's the whole AI thing. I get emails like from, from like AI education companies talking about the latest updates and I'm like, what the actual? What do you mean there's something that can do that?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI'm starting to wonder if, if I'm of any relevance and importance to anybody anymore. And then, as if it can't get worse, Al, have you heard about the frickin' UK cargo theft crisis?
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottSomebody who has no business doing it is bobbing around Europe and intercepting UK, like, like lorries and stuff, and they've stolen like 9 tonnes of Kit Kats.
Al ElliottOh, I did see that.
Leanne ElliottAnd 35,000 pints of Guinness.
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottHow dare you, sir?
Al ElliottHow dare you, sir?
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, we're looking into the Guinness shortage of 2026.
Al ElliottOh man, that's even worse where we live because occasionally we see Guinness.
Leanne ElliottIt's hard enough to get anyway.
Al ElliottIt's hard enough to get anyway. Fun fact, we went to Croatia and they had, um, we're just over the border, it's about a 20-minute drive to get over the border, um, and we saw 2 supermarkets with Guinness, so we bought all of it.
Leanne ElliottWe bought all of it.
Al ElliottAll of it. We came back, I think we spent about €100 on Guinness.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, but, um, which I'd love to say we've still got loads left, but we are down to our last 4.
Leanne ElliottAnd we don't have the money to replace it either, so. So yeah, back on the, uh, on the, on the T for us. And then, as if it isn't bad enough, there's one thing apart from the news roundup that brings me a lot of joy.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottScott Mills. I freaking love his breakfast show. What do you mean? What do you mean he has been sacked? Something about like personal conduct.
Al ElliottWhat do you mean?
Leanne ElliottNot Scott Mills. And he's Eurovision. Oh no, I'm honestly heartbroken. I'm honestly heartbroken. I think I'm more upset about Scott Mills than I am about Developing story. Developing story.
Al ElliottWe don't know anything else about this.
Leanne ElliottWe don't know.
Al ElliottWe don't know.
Leanne ElliottJust saying, as an entertainment form, I enjoy it muchly.
Al ElliottYes. Didn't, um, I think Tony Blackburn got sacked because he was, uh, he spoke out in defense of Jimmy Savile, and then he got sacked by the BBC, and then he got reinstated. So we have to be careful that we are saying that we are devastated that the new BBC chairman The is a racist. news that he is gone.
Leanne ElliottThat the show, that the content has gone.
Al ElliottThe content has gone.
Leanne ElliottAs content consumers, we'd enjoy consuming that content. But yeah, he might have done something really, really shady.
Al ElliottSo, um, here's a question. Who's— we were talking about last night who was gonna replace him. I looked and, um, according to— is it Betfred, the one that does bets and everything? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, they said the 2 contenders are, uh, Vernon Kay, which we suggested.
Leanne ElliottYep.
Al ElliottWho else do you think?
Leanne ElliottSarah Cox.
Al ElliottSarah Cox.
Leanne ElliottShe's my first pick.
Al ElliottYou reckon she'll go back?
Leanne ElliottI just think it's like, I mean, we'll actually talk on this When something is in crisis, putting a woman in charge is, is often a good idea.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo, uh, and I'm sure I'm, you know, I know there's some cheating scandal with Vern a few years ago, but I think that all got resolved.
Al ElliottBut equally— Allegedly.
Leanne ElliottYeah, allegedly. But equally, everything's gonna get dragged back up, isn't it? Put Sarah in charge, don't you mean?
Al ElliottYeah. And as long as Sarah hasn't done anything dodgy.
Leanne ElliottSarah doesn't do anything. Sarah's a mum. She might have had a lot of fun in the '90s. Didn't, didn't they all? I was a bit too young myself, but.
Al ElliottI had such a crush. I think she was my first proper crush, Sarah Cox.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah. Also, she's from Bolton as well, which is, which is lovely. Anyway, anything else to add to that story? Yes.
Leanne ElliottSo if like me, Al, you're feeling a little overwhelmed at the moment, there is some advice from Dr. Emma Sepala. Sepala?
Al ElliottSepala?
Leanne ElliottSepala.
Al ElliottIs that Turkish?
Leanne ElliottI believe it's Finnish.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And thank you to Dr. Amanda Super.
Al ElliottOh, I love you, Amanda.
Leanne ElliottFor posting this on LinkedIn. Do go and follow Dr. Amanda. She's awesome.
Al ElliottCan I just say Dr. Super?
Leanne ElliottDr. Super, I know.
Al ElliottThat's like the best character ever.
Leanne ElliottIt's like a cross between a Mr. Men character and a superhero.
Al ElliottYes, Dr. Super.
Leanne ElliottDr. Super.
Al ElliottBrilliant. Anyway, sorry, go on.
Leanne ElliottSo yes, anyway, Dr. Emma is a research scientist, psychologist, and bestselling author, and fancy, a faculty member at Yale. She is what a real psychologist looks like, let's be honest. She says there's a reason we're all exhausted and burnt out at the moment, and it is because we're living through really intense and unpredictable times, and the pace of the world and the uncertainty in it is just constantly demanding our attention, and it's straining our nervous system, and it's draining all of our energy. She said, as someone who has researched and written about how to attain psychological sovereignty, here's what I think is the biggest mistake we can make: believing we just have to push through. Side note, psychological sovereignty, unofficial word of the week, Al.
Al ElliottYeah, I like this.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I'd never heard of this either. So it's this, uh, the idea is based on Emma's book, which is called Sovereign: Reclaim Your Freedom, Energy, and Power in a Time of Distraction, Uncertainty, and Chaos. Succinct in title, but very clear.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottIn what it means. At its core, psychological sovereignty is about having control over your attention, your thinking, and your actions, rather than being pulled around by everything going, going on around you. And it basically comes down to 3 things. The first is attention, where you direct your focus and what you choose to notice. So you not looking at the news is you choosing not to notice the news. The second is sense-making, so how you interpret what's happening, so the story you tell yourself about it. So for example, if we do get kicked out of Bosnia, that was just the way it was meant to be and our forever home is somewhere else.
Al ElliottMm.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. And then third is agency, what you actually do in response. Um, so if it's like me and Scott Mills, it's just kind of cry a little bit and then just switch to Sarah Cox. Anyway, Emma's point is that resilience is not built through endurance or grit. Uh, it's built through small daily acts that regulate the body, nourish the mind, and reconnect us to ourselves. And then she offered 5 dos and don'ts.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottFor building our resilience. Do you wanna, do you wanna game it? Do you wanna pick a number out of 1 to 5? We'll do the dudes first.
Al ElliottNo, no, let's just pick, I'll pick number 3.
Leanne ElliottNumber 3, hydrate well.
Al ElliottOh, I'm doing that right now.
Leanne ElliottWater matters more than we often realise. Hydration with pure water, fresh juices, coconut water, or electrolyte-rich fluids supports the nervous system and overall vitality. Even mild dehydration can activate the body's stress response, putting it into a subtle fight or flight A 2019 study on humans indicated that even mild dehydration changes blood flow in the brain and impacts mood.
Al ElliottLovely. So how about we go for number 2 on the don'ts?
Leanne ElliottNumber 2 on the don'ts: don't overschedule your life. When every moment is filled, there is no room left to care for your physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual needs. Leave space in your day Resilience grows in that space.
Al ElliottDo you know, I think we are on the way to psychological sovereignty.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI honestly think we are because we're very keen on, we call it checking out.
Leanne ElliottYep.
Al ElliottClosing the laptop lid, whatever. Like Theo explained. And so quite often, like after a busy day, we'll just sit there and go, I'm gonna sit and watch silly stuff on YouTube for a little bit. Or you watch a lot of period dramas. And I think we're quite good at doing that. I think, I think to be fair, we both have, we're both like almost 80% towards psychological sovereignty.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think we are. I mean, we do, like you say, we do spend quiet times. We walk the dogs every day. One of us will. I think one of them on there was eating plenty of fruits and vegetables, which we do. We eat a lot of fruit and vegetables.
Al ElliottYeah, sometimes too much. A lot of cabbage on them on Sunday.
Leanne ElliottYou had a sore tummy, didn't you?
Al ElliottYeah, I'm not going to go into what happened there, but, uh, yes, I, I had to sleep in a different bedroom.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think, I think we're almost there. If you want a full list of dos and don'ts, I will leave a link to Emma's article in the show notes and to her LinkedIn profile as well. Do go and check it out. There's some really good advice in there if you are feeling a little overwhelmed.
Al ElliottLovely. Okay, so I want to talk about my I haven't really got an article for you this week. I've got more of a kind of a love letter to a tool I've been using for about a year now.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottI know, I know.
Leanne ElliottIs it Claude?
Al ElliottNo. Although I mean, Claude, we do have, we do have some nice conversations. We're tight. We're tight. Yeah, he's my bro. No, no, this is actually, although it is AI, is actually something a bit different. This, now stick with me. I know that most people aren't as nerdy as me, but this is what's gonna give, I believe you, and I believe a bit of an edge at work. The tool is called NotebookLM. You might have heard of it. It's made by Google. It's free. And the basic idea is this, that it is an AI. So it's like ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, but it is only trained on what you give it. So you can upload your meeting notes, you can upload research, you can upload YouTube videos, you can upload company reports, you've got anything you want, and you can create projects for these. And you can essentially then go, right, tell me a bit more about it. Now you can to a certain extent do that with ChatGPT or Claude. You can upload that, and Claude's particularly good at that. However, this can never hallucinate because it only uses the sources you've actually given it. Oh, that's good. It is really good. So couple of other— so that in itself I think is pretty cool. So I use it quite a lot for, uh, I uploaded the entire documents for something called Laravel, which is a PHP framework, which I, I like coding in. Upload the entire documents and then I can ask, right, okay, what, what do I need to do about so-and-so? And it'll only But it gets better because now they've introduced these. Now let me just double-check what they've actually called them. Flashcards. And what you can do is you can say, I want to learn how to use, I don't know, Photoshop.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottSo you go and find a 5-hour-long video on Photoshop and you upload that and then you give it the link for the Photoshop docs and then it will teach you Photoshop. What it'll do is it'll give you flashcards and go, if you wanted to add an invisible layer or a mask, how would you do it? And then you go, oh, I think I'm gonna do— it'd be like a quiz. Oh, you do this. And it goes, you are right. You are right. It'll give you other things like it can give you this, this, this is something I've been using quite a lot. It kind of creates its own little podcast with AI, with AI hosts.
Leanne ElliottI am actually irrelevant.
Al ElliottNo, no, no, because it's really obvious it's AI.
Leanne ElliottReally, really obvious. It is now.
Al ElliottNobody. Nobody. True, true. But they'll go, but, but what you can do is listen to like 15 minutes on a particular chapter of something and it'll just teach you and it'll be like 2 people chatting away. I thought it was really, really good. I alluded before to Mike Ross. You know how Mike Ross just consumes information? My favorite scene is like, I think it's episode 1 where he runs in with a suitcase full of drugs and it falls to the floor and then he just goes, what if I told you that I could consume knowledge like nobody else. And he says, get— is that a Barbary law handbook? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Al ElliottIf you've not seen it, listen, go and find out. Well, it's a bit like that. This is basically Mike Ross on the, on the, on the web who knows everything about everything. Right. I've stopped being nerdy. Right. I'll stop.
Leanne ElliottNo, it sounds very cool. It sounds very, very cool. Like you say, I guess the only problem is if you're uploading content to it that isn't yours, do you have permission to do that? And I know it's kind of a bit of a grey area at the minute, isn't it? But yeah, I think that's the only thing. No, I think anything that makes learning easier is a good thing, isn't it?
Al ElliottI agree. I think it's really cool.
Leanne ElliottI've never tried it myself. I might have a little play with it sometime.
Al ElliottYou should do. You should do. Yeah, yeah. Very good. Anyway, what else you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottPink ice cream makers for International Women's Day. I can kind of see it where like the MD walks into the room of HR and goes, guys, I've had an idea.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottLet's buy all the women in the company an ice cream maker for International Women's Day? Thoughts? And everyone at HR's like, um, and then tries to talk him out of it, but you're like, no, it's a brilliant idea, let's just crack on. Um, I hope that's how it went down. I, I doubt he'd asked anybody at all, to be honest. I think he just probably cracked on. I saw this in a really brilliant newsletter from Katherine Garrard. Do you remember Katherine Garrard, Al?
Al ElliottYes, I know the name.
Leanne ElliottYeah, Katherine is a DEI consultant and author of Conscious Inclusion.
Al ElliottOh, that's behind us, that.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's a brilliant book. And very long-term listeners will know that she's been on the show already, way back in episode 45 when we were just babbies.
Al ElliottBabies.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Her newsletter is called Crown Jewels and Whoopsie Daisies. I know, I know. And it's basically, she'll share really good examples of, of DEI. And then a whoops moment where things didn't quite land. This one was her whoops moment for March. So here is what happened. An offshore law firm called Harneys decided to mark International Women's Day by sending pink branded ice cream makers to female lawyers, clients, and colleagues. This came from their managing partner. You can't make it up.
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottHis name is Ian Mann.
Al ElliottNo, it's not. Yeah, it is. Oh, it could only be worse if his first name was Guy, wouldn't it?
Leanne ElliottOh, imagine. Yeah, Ian Mann.
Al ElliottOh no.
Leanne ElliottHe said it was about celebrating women across their network. The machines retail for about $55 and came with messages like, pamper yourself every day. The reaction was kind of mixed. Um, a couple of people really liked it, calling it the sweetest gift yet. Others weren't so impressed. One comment suggested maybe next year they could throw in a Hoover and a washing-up brush, before adding, I know Harneys will be working towards equality in the workplace, so why not post about the work you're doing to advance equal participation across your firm and announce your ambition for the coming year? That would be a post I could truly celebrate. Beautifully said. And then Ian Mann, being the tone-deaf dude that he seems to be, Replied, he's working on a full house cleaning kit for husbands for next Mother's Day.
Al ElliottOh, well, that didn't save it, did it?
Leanne ElliottNo. And you know what? This isn't an isolated whoops from law firms. A lot have struggled with the tone. For example, CMS ordered its landlord to take down a beauty display offering Botox to female workers.
Al ElliottFor International Women's Day?
Leanne ElliottYep.
Al ElliottNice.
Leanne ElliottShoesmiths was rightly shamed for getting a panel of men To discuss gender equality.
Al ElliottOh, why? What? I mean, come on. Even if, even if you have no idea, you must go, yeah, you've said it all.
Leanne ElliottDo you know what I mean? And then in 2017, a phone call withers offered female staff half-price salad. Half-price salad.
Al ElliottThat's so— that's— oh man. If it's anything you, you don't want half price, it's salad. You'd be like, well, where'd you get the salad from? But anyway.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think it's also that it's— I think it's also it's a connotation of weight in terms of—
Al ElliottOh, I see.
Leanne ElliottAnd figure and looks.
Al ElliottOh, man.
Leanne ElliottRather than necessarily just having a poor food item half price. So apparently the firm told Roll on Friday, which I think is the publication this originally appeared in, we were proud to celebrate International Women's Day across all our offices, with each location adopting different approaches to raise awareness about this important day.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottMindful of the Give to Gain theme, we held events across the firm, including team lunches and sharing cakes and gifts to celebrate contributions of women across our firm and the wider community. These shared moments reflect our commitment to fostering an inclusive, supportive environment where everyone can thrive and succeed. And this is where Catherine basically, basically took it. So she said, it's a classic example of inclusion being reduced to branding and merch instead of anything meaningful. Um, she said, let's not forget the United Nations 17 Sustainable Development Goals. Goal 5 is to achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls, because right now women only have 64% of the legal rights that men hold worldwide. And that's in fundamental areas including life— uh, fundamental areas of life including work, money, safety— big one— Family, property, mobility, business, and retirement. She then went on to say that the 2026 theme for International Women's Day was rights, justice, action for all women and girls, and that, that's what made the pink ice cream maker a little bit off.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottIt's just that it's just such a serious thing, isn't it, when you think 64% of the rights of men just in basic areas of our life, and in celebration of us as women and the contribution we bring to society, we're gifted an ice cream maker.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottIt's just awkward. It's just really awkward. Catherine does though give some really good tips for anyone who is looking to celebrate International Women's Day or similar events in the future and actually do it right. She says, first, avoid gimmicks. If it feels like a marketing idea, it probably is. Second, build it with the people you're trying to support. Ask women what actually matters. Don't sit in a room guessing, and definitely don't have all male teams making decisions that affect women. And third, make the day mean something. Use it to launch or highlight real changes like parental leave, flexible working, fair progression decisions, menopause Matrescence is something that's trending at the moment, helping women return into the workplace after, after having a baby. Um, all of those things are actually gonna, gonna remove barriers. So I thought that's a really great piece from Katherine because it's sassy and it's funny and it's serious and it's educational. So bravo. I will leave a link to Katherine's LinkedIn and her newsletter in the show notes. It's a monthly thing, so you don't kind of get flooded Oh, I like that.
Al ElliottTalking of monthly things, your LinkedIn AF must be out soon.
Leanne ElliottTomorrow.
Al ElliottTomorrow.
Leanne ElliottI know, I know.
Al ElliottIf you're not subscribed to that, then people will say very nice things about that as well. Okay, so I think that's it for the news roundup. We will be back after the very short break.
Leanne ElliottThat was a heavy one, that. I feel a bit exhausted.
Al ElliottYeah, I know, I know. Well, we're gonna go make a cup of tea. You do go do the same.
Leanne ElliottYou go have one of those Guinnesses.
Al ElliottYeah, one of those Guinnesses. And we'll see you after the break where we go back, where we talk about Truth or Lie, where I ask Leanne I say something and I go, is it true or is it a lie? I'm still fluffing that, aren't I? I'll get better. Don't worry. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agents to fake their fandom. to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back to Truth or Lie. It's that time of the week where we take a popular workplace theory and ask if the research actually backs it up. This week, looking at a phrase that I've only just come across quite recently called glass cliff. Now, I've heard of the glass ceiling, and you probably have too. And just in case you haven't, that's what they describe as an invisible barrier that's said to stop women from reaching the most senior level of an organization, no matter how qualified they are. The glass cliff, kind of similar idea, but basically what they're saying is that women are more likely than men to be appointed into roles that are already in trouble. So they break through the glass ceiling, but then just to go off the cliff at the other end. Lee, have I described that correctly? And is this true or is this actually a lie?
Leanne ElliottYou have described it correctly, yes. And it kind of sounds almost like it could be a bit of a conspiracy theory, doesn't it? That we're just kind of setting women up to fail. The story of where this came from is actually quite, quite interesting as well. It's a good example of psychologists seeing something in the news and going, we'll be the judge of that. So in 2003, this goes back a long, long time, a journalist at The Times wrote that companies appointing women to their boards were seeing their share prices fall. And the implication was basically that female leaders are bad for business.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo then Michelle Ryan and Alex Haslam entered the chat. They're psychologists at University of Exeter, and they looked at the same data but asked a different question. What if the companies were already in trouble before the women arrived? So what if it wasn't that the woman caused the decline, but the woman was appointed at the beginning of one?
Al ElliottSo basically someone's gone, we're a bit in the shit here, let's go and get this woman to take over and take the fall for it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, basically. And when you look at kind of some examples just around us, there's quite a few. Theresa May.
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottYou know, Prime Minister 2016, basically handed the job of negotiating Brexit, even though she didn't support it initially. And it was going to be impossible for anyone to do that job. Marissa Mayer was appointed CEO of Yahoo in 2012, inheriting a company that had been losing to Google and Facebook for years. And Mary Barra became the first female CEO of General Motors in 2014, just weeks before the company faced a massive ignition switch recall that became one of the largest safety scandals in automotive history.
Al ElliottWow. I think there was also Reddit as well. They appointed a female CEO and then it all went a little bit south. Yeah. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, it's— there's certainly anecdotal evidence. But what does the actual scientific evidence say? We have more than 20 years of research now, so we can take a decent stab at deciding if this is true or lie. So, in terms of evidence for, Ryan and Haslam, our psychologists that first took beef with that 2003 Times article, they published their study in 2005. They looked at 38 companies in the FTSE 100. So, that's the largest companies on the stock exchange. 19 of those companies had appointed a woman to their board in 2003. They matched each of those with a comparable company that had appointed a man at the same time, so same sector, etc. And what they found was in the 5 months before the appointment, companies that hired women had consistently worse share price performance than companies that hired men.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottThat was true, what the article claimed, but crucially, The women weren't making things worse because after the appointment, the same companies actually saw their share prices recover.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo over time, it got worse and then recovered. So the women weren't the cause of the decline. They were being brought in during one.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo by 2016, the same researchers reviewed a decade's worth of research that had built on their original work, again, drawing on FTSE 100 and Fortune 500 companies. They also looked at political elections and some sporting contexts as well. And across experimental studies, when participants were asked to choose between equally qualified male and female candidates, people consistently preferred the female candidate when a company was in decline. But when a company was doing well, there was no preference either way.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottSo, this is an experimental environment. So, the research at this point identifies something called the glass cushion. So the idea that men have preferential access to stable roles, whereas women are getting the riskier jobs. So they suggested that it may be, it's not just women getting risky jobs, but the men are being protected from them.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo another study in 2020 pulled together 74 different studies over 91 separate samples. What's this called, Al?
Al ElliottLongitudinal study, is that correct?
Leanne ElliottIt's a meta-analysis.
Al ElliottOh man, I need notes.
Leanne ElliottSo again, they looked at experimental studies and they found a small but statistically significant glass cliff effect, which again, meaning that when you put people in a room and ask them to make hiring decisions, they do show a real tendency above chance to select women for high-risk roles. And that effect was very strong in countries with higher levels of gender inequality.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne Elliottsuch as the UK and the US. They then tried to think about why this happens. And one explanation is what researchers call think crisis, think female. So the idea that in a crisis, these stereotypical feminine traits, so things like empathy and strong communication skills, suddenly become more valued. So women get selected. Another is signalling. So organisations basically appoint women to send a very clear message to shareholders that something's changing. We're really radically shaking things up. We're appointing a woman to CEO. Crazy times. And the third is the uncomfortable one, that perhaps women are sometimes selected as scapegoats. So, they're brought in to absorb the blame for the decline, and then a man will come in and save the day.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottA more recent lit review also found that female CEOs have a significantly shorter average tenure than male CEOs. So, they have about 7 years compared to about 9.5 for men. And finally, a study of women in the Tunisian public sector found that those placed in glass cliff positions, unsurprisingly, showed higher rates of burnout, with self-confidence taking a direct hit. So yeah, the picture that emerges across the research really is that women aren't just underrepresented at the top, some of the positions they do reach come with a lot of risk.
Al ElliottOkay, so is there any evidence that shows that this is not true?
Leanne ElliottThere is some evidence that tells a slightly different story. So the most direct challenge comes from some psychologists called Adams, Gupta, and Leith. Just wanted to say Gupta.
Al ElliottGupta, it's a nice name.
Leanne ElliottYeah. In 2009, they set out to test the glass cliff specifically for CEO appointments in the United States. So, they looked at 48 female CEOs across the S&P 500 and mid-cap and small-cap companies, and they did it over a long period of time, '92 to 2004. And they compared that to 1,300 male CEO appointments in the same industries to try and get a direct comparison. They found no evidence of a glass cliff. In fact, in the 120 days before appointment, the share price performance of companies hiring women was actually slightly better— sorry, the share price performance of companies hiring women was slightly better than those hiring men, not worse.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottIt was actually flipped around. But when they adjusted for broader market conditions, there was no significant difference either way. The effect just completely disappeared.
Al ElliottBut they did 1992 to 2004, which is a different period, which the previous psychology research did 2003 to 2016.
Leanne ElliottTrue that. With a lot more crisis.
Al ElliottA lot more crisis and probably significantly more women in leadership.
Leanne ElliottYeah, very, very true.
Al ElliottAnyway, sorry, maybe I'm—
Leanne ElliottI love it when you start thinking like a scientist. You're absolutely right, Al. You're absolutely right.
Al ElliottOkay, so what else we got?
Leanne ElliottThe 2020 meta-analysis that I mentioned, The same one that found overall support for a glass cliff also contains a very important caveat. So, they ran 3 different types of tests, basically. One looking at real-world appointment data, one looking at experimental studies where participants rated candidates, and one looking at experimental studies where the participants actually selected a candidate.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThe glass cliff showed up very, very clearly in the experimental studies. So when people were asked to make hiring decisions, the bias was very, very measurable. But when they looked at real-world appointment data from across businesses, the result was statistically significant, meaning that the pattern was strong enough to rule out that it was just down to chance, but it wasn't as strong.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd the strongest real-world effects actually appeared in politics and education. Rather than business.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo this may be kind of one of those things where, because it's not a massively strong thing, it exists, but it's much easier to detect in experimental settings where lots of things are controlled than just in the general, general world. Geography matters as well. So the same meta-analysis found that the glass cliff was larger in countries, as we said, with higher gender inequality like the UK and US. It wasn't found in countries like Germany, And Switzerland in some study designs. And then there's also a quota question. So, a 2024 study tracked board appointments in German companies across 3 distinct periods. So, Germany introduced gender quotas where organisations have to have an equal representation of genders within organisations and particularly senior leadership teams. So, they looked at the periods before gender quotas were announced.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAfter they were announced, but before they're enforced, and then after enforcement began. During that middle period, so after the announcement, but before the enforcement, the glass cliff effect completely disappeared.
Al ElliottOh, right.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So the explanation they offer was going back to signalling. So without quotas, appointing a woman to a struggling board doesn't sound as dramatic a change, because there's more women represented at that level anyway. So, yeah, so that strategic motivation to put women in precarious roles kind of fades. But what was interesting is when they then looked at what happened once the quotas had been enforced, and somewhat surprisingly, the glass cliff came back.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo, more women were appointed into high-risk roles, even when gender quotas were enforced. Yes, curious, curious. So the verdict, is it truth or is it a lie? In terms of experimental evidence, it's very consistent. It's, it's true. Dozens of studies, you know, have shown us that people have a tendency to select women for roles in struggling organisations. The real-world picture is a bit messier. The effect shows up most clearly in politics and education. But when the glass cliff does appear, The research does suggest that it's not really random, and that women are sometimes appointed, as we've said, as a signal that change is coming, and in some cases, as a scapegoat, scapegoat for a decline that was already underway before they arrived. So, are women left to pick up the pieces? Yeah, sometimes. The glass ceiling may, may have cracked, but for women, there is another side to this, and it is a cliff edge. So, yeah, a glass cliff, truth or lie?
Al ElliottTruth.
Leanne ElliottI'm gonna say it's true, but tentatively, in that it seems to be in certain scenarios, certain parts of the world, and with certain strategic intentions. It doesn't happen everywhere. It doesn't happen every time, but it happens enough to be real.
Al ElliottInteresting. Thank you so much, Leanne. If you have a question that you want to put to Leanne, is it a true or is it a lie, truth or lie, then get in touch. We have We're starting to get a few more people who are going to come in and do the Truth or Lie for us, aren't we?
Leanne ElliottWe do. We have next week Dr. Jake Tuber is joining us, and then we also have another organisational psychologist I think will be the week after that, Alexis Sarna. Yeah, but we'll keep you posted.
Al ElliottYeah, mixing it up. Okay, so on to our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Okay, I've got 3 questions here. Leanne, question number 1. I've just— it could be summed up by this: should I be worried if my team sees the company has cash? So let's get into this, right? So this person writes, I have a small business and we've built up a healthy amount of cash which we're planning to invest back into growth. We don't openly share financials, but it's publicly available and I'm aware some employees may look it up. I'm starting to wonder if seeing that level of cash could lead to frustration or resentment, especially around pay. Is this something that I should be thinking about and how transparent should I be in this situation?
Leanne ElliottInteresting.
Al ElliottSo it seems that this is, says a small business, but if it's publicly available, then you'd imagine it'd be at least be a limited company where the accounts were available. So I think what I'm understanding is that, um, potentially this person isn't quite as generous with pay as they, as they should be, or, or maybe could be. Um, and they're sitting on a nice pile and they're sitting on a throne made of £5 notes is what I'm getting. Leigh, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI think, would people be frustrated or resentful if they saw your company accounts? Only, as Al suggested, you're not paying them enough. You're not, you know, the recognition isn't there. They're not invested in, in the growth of, of the organisation. I think if you're treating people well and you're benchmarking your salaries against other, other businesses in a similar sector, and you're doing that with benefits as well, and you've got clear progression opportunities and development opportunities, then I don't think anyone would be too concerned by knowing their organisation is in a healthy cash position, especially in these times.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottYou know, that's going to be good news that the business is stable. It could be worth having a little bit more transparency around this. You know, it's not like you're the parent and your employees are the children. If they're contributing to the commercial success of your business, it might be wise to let them in on how the company is performing. If you are holding that cash back for a particular reason, you say to invest back into growth, maybe share with them how you plan to invest into growth. Because a lot of people, again, especially in these times, would be very excited to be working for a high-growth business with future plans and ambitions that they can be a part of and share and develop alongside.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo, I think this is really, really about you doing a little bit of introspection and realising that you are now Heading a company that has responsibilities to its people, but also has an opportunity to engage them in this process of growing your business. And what we know from all the literature is that the more you do that, and the more people are invested, and the more they feel connected to what the organisation's trying to do, and they feel like they're recognised and they're paid fairly, they are going to stay and ride that growth wave with you the entire time. So, my thought would be to think about being a little bit more transparent Once you have maybe done those exercises, uh, and I'd say transparently with the team as well, to benchmark what you're doing around, around salary and benefits and professional development and stuff like that.
Al ElliottTotally agree. Totally agree. If you're in a great position and you have a load of cash and you are gonna grow, that's an exciting thing to share with your, um, uh, with your team that we are growing. This is what we're gonna do. And if you are, if you have been a little stingy with your, with your salaries, then you can say, right, so if we grow and we hit this thing, then we can give everyone across the board A 10% pay rise. Great. Okay. And then you're not taking outta cash, you're taking outta revenue, extra revenue. So that makes perfect sense. I do slightly worry that this person is, is a little selfish and is going, I want to keep all the cash for myself and I wanna pay the least I possibly can. If that is you, my friend, I'm not sure really that we can help you with that because you can't have your cake and eat it. Um, if you're, if you're, if you're obsessed with keeping as much cash as you possibly can on hand and you want to keep it all for yourself, you're going to have high— you're not going to have the happiest employees, I don't think. No.
Leanne ElliottAnd I'm not sure you'll enjoy it either in, in the long run because you want the people around you to be as excited as you are in what, what you're trying to build. And it might be okay to do it at the moment where the labour market is, is quite hard for, for employees and You know, organisations, employees are very much in control of that dynamic, but it will swing back. It always does. And if you have a mass exodus of people leaving your business, what are you going to do then?
Al ElliottAbsolutely. And what you do in these times will shape what happens in the times where the power shift swings.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. And we're actually talking about that more in our LinkedIn Live tomorrow. Yes, we are talking about employee engagement and whether you should bother in a crisis. Um, spoiler, yes, you should bother. Come along and find out why. I'll leave a link in the show notes.
Al ElliottThank you for, uh, waiting till I had a mouthful of water for that. I wish it was Guinness. Okay, so question number 2, how do you manage a friend who now reports to you? This person writes, I was promoted 6 months ago to manage a team that I used to be part of. Most people have been great, but one colleague who used to be a close friend started undermining me. Jokes in meetings, dismissive comments, and acting like I got lucky. I don't want to lose the friendship, but I also can't let it continue. Okay. How do you handle this without turning into a formal issue or losing them completely? This person sounds conflicted. The reason I pause there is I don't want to lose a friendship, but I can't let it. Oh, I see. I'm sorry. I misread that. I don't want to lose the friendship, but I can't let his behavior continue. I think is what what I think I misread that. So this so Leanne, this person doesn't want to make it formal issue, but also needs to. Needs to knock this on the head. Thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI, I think first of all, prepare yourself that this friendship may already be over. And also, is it a friendship that you want?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThat close friend who's now undermining you and making jokes about you and dismissive comments and saying that you're lucky?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottDo you want somebody like that to be your friend?
Al ElliottI wouldn't want someone like that.
Leanne ElliottI wouldn't want someone like that either. Um, so I think that's the first thing, is maybe realizing this personal relationship is, is probably already ended, and what we're looking to do now is recover it into some form of civil workplace relationship.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd that all comes down to just having, having difficult conversations, and we've talked about that before, really. Um, so yeah, before you have the conversation, be really clear on what your goal is. What outcome do you want? Is it that you just want them to be better behaved in meetings? You know, check as well in terms of of your mindset. So your aim is to understand, not necessarily win. They might continue that behavior and you will have to escalate it. So at this point, you're just trying to gain understanding about what, what their issue is. And think about how they might react as well. I can't imagine they're going to react well. With that in mind, what I sometimes have done before conversations like this, um, or after conversations like this when I, when I've seen them react badly is actually talk to a peer about it. So like another manager on another team and say, I'm going to have this conversation, etc., etc., or somebody in HR, just to kind of give them kind of an idea of like, I'm not escalating this formally, but just so you know, I'm having a difficult conversation with such and such. Just want to make you aware should things escalate. Can be quite useful. In terms of, of the conversation itself, just being very clear and calm. Write down the main points you want to Cover, um, avoid any kind of really exaggerated language. You know, like, you're always undermining me, you're always joking in meetings. Rather, try and pick up specific facts of certain conversations. So, in the meeting we had last Tuesday about this client, I felt undermined when you said this. Was that your intention? What didn't I understand about that situation? Be curious, lean into it, ask these open questions, and listen properly. Do not get defensive yourself. This is a fact-finding mission. Yeah.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottFor you, really. Then if, if it— if this person is responding well to the conversation in that they're not completely clenching up or getting very angry, you can start to look at, at kind of problem-solving more, um, efforts. Again, you might wanna take a break and come back to this if somebody has reacted very badly, but that's just really looking at solutions together. So if they're undermining you, is that because they feel they have better ideas, but they can't express it in a way that they used to be able to before when you were a colleague? Is it that you're unawarely making their job much harder because of something in a process that you've changed? There could be 100 reasons, and it could just come down to spite, that they're jealous. But there might be something that actually in the work scenario you can do to fix it. Um, and then, yeah, agree what that is, set some clear actions, next steps. And try and end it on some kind of positive and respectful note. And then you just got to check in and see if those things change. And if the behaviour doesn't change, you are going to have to escalate it because that's just going to, in the long term, have a negative impact on, on the performance of your team, which is going to look bad on you. So, approach it like an adult. Try and have this conversation. Be curious. Try and figure out if there is anything you can do to actually Make this person's job easier and go from there. But just prepare yourself that this might be something that does need to be escalated at some point. And I've been there. I've been in situations where, you know, I've kind of had a bit of a leapfrog thing going on with someone who started as my colleague. They became my boss. I later became— then we were peers. I later became their boss. And it was awkward at times, but her performance was brilliant. And that made us both look good. So, you know.
Al ElliottAnd she, you, you, it's not that you weren't, you fell out, but it's just you weren't friends.
Leanne ElliottWe were civil. We were, yeah.
Al ElliottYou weren't friends.
Leanne ElliottWe'd gone from being very close friends to really just kind of civil colleagues.
Al ElliottSo it sounds like that's unfortunately the end of your friendship, but hopefully the beginning of a new relationship. Okay. So last question here, Leanne. How far should I go with employee benefits? I run a small growing business with a fully remote team. Oh, good for you. Try to be as flexible as possible. Uh, just treat people like adults so they can do things like appointments and school runs. We already offer things like private healthcare for a year and, or sorry, after a year and performance-based bonus. But recently the team have asked for more things like birthday leave, wellbeing days, gym allowance, working from home stipends. I want people to feel valued and looked after, but I'm also conscious that, uh, what feels manageable and what become my, what might become expensive as we grow. So how do you strike the balance between being a good employer and keeping things sustainable? Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYeah, good question. Good question. I would want to dig a bit deeper into why people are asking for the things they're asking for. I mean, birthday leave. Yeah, that's always nice. Personally, I've never had birthday leave as a perk, but I've always taken my birthday off and it's always been approved. So I think that could be a kind of a workaround like that in terms of, look, the actual cost of increasing annual leave by one more day is more significant than you might imagine. But if we made an agreement that if you request your birthday off, then it's automatically approved, there's no question to it. Because then that money will allow us to invest in other things. Gym allowances, yeah, maybe. Work from home stipends. I think this is actually one that you should probably look into. Because if you have a remote company, this is as much about making sure that people are—
Al ElliottHappy.
Leanne ElliottFrom a health and safety perspective. Okay. So, in terms of, do they have an ergonomic chair and keyboards and monitors and et cetera? And you can do a risk assessment with them fairly easily virtually. And then you can look at kind of having set equipment recommended. That might also be a conversation for occupational health potentially in terms of advisory that you should be doing, because you don't want people going off because they've, they've got a really sore back because they've got a crappy chair and they're looking down at their laptop. That might be worth looking into because absenteeism is expensive. Wellbeing days, I'd want to ask why they want wellbeing days, because prevention is better than reaction or cure. So, if they're starting to feel that they want, is it they just want some time to invest in wellbeing? Is it that they're feeling burnt out and they're quite stressed? A better solution might be looking at how we can actually support our employees proactively with their wellbeing in terms of setting hard boundaries, making sure somebody Isn't logging on late at night. We know in remote work environments that is a massive risk. People do work longer hours, so setting some hard boundaries from your perspective on that can be really useful. Making sure people are taking their full annual leave allowance, investing in sessions around psychological wellbeing, financial wellbeing, all that good stuff. I think looking at a more proactive view of wellbeing is going to be more effective for everybody rather than giving days off when people are feeling—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottoverwhelmed. But again, it sounds like you have flexible working, so you can say this isn't, you know, if you phone me up and, or drop me a message and you're really struggling that day, it's a conversation about making that day flexible or taking some time off. But it's just not kind of in a well-being associated with, with time off. The other thing I'd say, and we do mention these, um, quite a bit, perks.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottPerks is really good. It's really cost-effective. I think it's like 4 or 5 quid per person per month, and that includes discounted membership. It includes lots of things around financial wellbeing and wealth planning. It has even things around newborn care, private health cover. There's a free lottery that you can enter into.
Al ElliottIs there?
Leanne ElliottThere's courses as well. Yeah, there's loads of different things on there, loads of different benefits that make— that are made much more affordable to organisations exactly like yours. So, that could be a really nice one to bring in cost-effectively, and then people are getting this massive whack of benefits. So, I'd say be open to these conversations, dig in a bit more. I think there are definitely things that you should do. I think the kind of risk assessment of people's work environment is probably really important for you as a business. I think the others dig a bit deeper into and maybe look at a benefits Yeah, very, very good.
Al ElliottLeanne, anything else to add before we go?
Leanne ElliottNo, only that next Thursday we are joined by Dr. Laura Dean. She is an organisational psychologist, but not any— actually, sorry, she's a chartered occupational psychologist. Let's use her official term. But not just any, she's also the president-elect of the British Psychological Society.
Al ElliottYes, that's the big— that's the organisation you're part of. Yes, I am.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd you did your chartership through—
Leanne ElliottI did.
Al ElliottAnd it's like the— I'm sorry, ABP, but it's the main one in the UK, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt is, it is. It's the— yeah, it's the official one, the official one. So yeah, it's a big, big deal. I was very excited to talk to Laura. Thursday is also World Autism Awareness Day, so we will be talking to Laura about autism, what it is, what it isn't, and how organisations can actually make workplaces better for everybody, including on your our diverse colleagues. So come back for that.
Al ElliottSuperb. So in the meantime, go and follow Leanne on LinkedIn. If you've enjoyed this, leave us a review or rate us or both. Or, and if you've got any questions or anything you want us to talk about, then check the show notes. There is an email. Thank you very much for listening. We'll see you very, very soon.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye.