Episode 294 · 21 April 2026 · 54:13
Are Extroverts Better Leaders? PLUS! 5 A.I. proof skills, Zuckerberg’s digital clone and new job red flags
Are Extroverts Better Leaders? PLUS! 5 A.I. proof skills, Zuckerberg’s digital clone and new job red flags
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5 skills LinkedIn says will AI-proof your career
news roundup#ai#career-skills#linkedin#future-of-work
Mark Zuckerberg's digital clone
news roundup#mark-zuckerberg#ai#technology#digital-clone
DoorDash CEO reads 2,000-word complaint emails
news roundup#leadership#employee-feedback#communication#door-dash
Truth or Lie: Extroverts make more effective leaders
truth or lie#leadership#extroverts#introverts#effectiveness
Workplace Surgery: engagement surveys
workplace surgery#employee-engagement#surveys#hr#workplace
Workplace Surgery: generational friction
workplace surgery#generational-differences#workplace-conflict#management
Workplace Surgery: new job red flags
workplace surgery#job-search#red-flags#onboarding#career-advice
Wrap-up and outro
news roundup#podcast-outro#summary#key-takeaways
Show notes
Extroverts vs. Introverts: Who Actually Leads Better? PLUS! Zuckerberg's Digital Clone & 5 AI-Proof Skills
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down LinkedIn's five "C" skills for AI-proofing your career, Mark Zuckerberg's plan to train an AI clone of himself for employee queries, and why the DoorDash CEO personally reads 2,000-word complaint emails. Plus, in Truth or Lie: do extroverts really make better leaders?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. 5 skills LinkedIn says will AI-proof your career in 2026 LinkedIn CEO Ryan Roslansky's new book argues AI won't replace you — if you lean into the "5 Cs": curiosity, courage, creativity, compassion, and communication. Leanne breaks down each one and compares them to the evidence-based "Great Eight" model from SHL to ask: are these genuinely new skills, or just old ones repackaged for the AI era? Source →
2. The digital Mark Zuckerberg: efficiency or madness? Meta is reportedly training an AI clone of its CEO on his mannerisms and tone so employees can query him directly — a digital boss on demand. While Zuckerberg uses a "CEO agent" to flatten the organisation, Meta is simultaneously navigating massive legal penalties. Genius move for scale, or a jarring corporate misstep? Leanne has thoughts — including a Morning Show comparison you won't want to miss. Source →
3. Why the DoorDash CEO reads 2,000-word complaint emails Tony Xu reveals why he hunts for "gold" in long, detailed messages from customers and Dashers. While many leaders shy away from negative feedback, Xu personally "debugs" system failures by tracking orders in the backend to understand where the app fails the real world. A refreshing contrast to the Zuckerberg approach — and a masterclass in staying close to the frontline. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: "Extroverts Make More Effective Leaders"
We often celebrate magnetic, commanding figures as the gold standard for leadership. But Leanne dives into the research to distinguish between leader emergence (who looks the part) and leader effectiveness (who actually delivers results).
The Verdict: It's a Lie — or at least a dangerous half-truth.
While extroversion accounts for around 10% of who gets promoted (and is actually one of the strongest personality predictors of leader emergence), it doesn't guarantee results. In fact:
- A 2022 study found extroverted leaders tend to be overconfident — and less willing to learn from feedback
- Research shows quieter leaders often outperform extroverts when managing proactive, high-performing teams
- The single most powerful leadership behaviour — explaining twice as much variance as all other factors combined — was individualised consideration: listening, supporting development, and showing real interest in people. Behaviours we typically see more from introverts
The takeaway? When hiring leaders, look for behaviours, not just personality. The loudest voice in the room isn't always the best one to lead it.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Engagement surveys: "Should I bother, or am I just measuring problems without fixing them?"
- Generational friction: Is the tension between Gen Z's boundaries and "earned authority" something a manager should fix? Leanne explains why this is a clash of unspoken norms, not age.
- New job red flags: What are the signs in your first few weeks that you've joined a genuinely healthy workplace versus an intentional disaster?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
📚 Resources Mentioned
- Hear Al's story — from 42 Under 42 to bankruptcy and back: truthliesandwork.com/episodes/16
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottLinkedIn's CEO has just published a list of 5 skills he says will protect your career from A.I. So what are these new skills and how do we develop them in ourselves and hire them in others?
Al ElliottAlso this week, Mark Zuckerberg's been at it again, and it's one of the stranger stories in tech this week. And do you know what? I'll just explain it all, exactly what he's been up to, very shortly.
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, extroverts make better leaders. Think people like Churchill, Steve Jobs, Oprah. The leaders we celebrate are charismatic and commanding, but does the research actually back that up? Well, I have taken a look, and unsurprisingly, Al, I've got a verdict.
Al ElliottAnd in the Workplace Surgery, one listener is asking, should I bother with engagement surveys, or am I just measuring problems instead of fixing them? Valid, valid question.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner, and I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to.
Leanne ElliottAnd my name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist, and I'm I am here to answer them, and together we help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWe'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all, every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hello, hello, welcome back, welcome back, Lee. You're back. You were in the UK, weren't you?
Leanne ElliottI was. I was back in the UK and it was flipping freezing.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottLike, I know, I know it's still April, but it was like 4 degrees at one point.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottChilly. Chilly. But no, I really enjoyed it. I didn't really do any work at all. I'm really behind on my emails. So anyone who I've not emailed back, Jake, I'm thinking of in particular. I'm really sorry, mate. I'm getting to it. But I tried to practice what I preach and I didn't check my emails and I didn't really get on LinkedIn. I just completely switched off and had lovely times with friends and fam. So, yeah, I'm working my way through it. But we've also had another slight distraction from work.
Al ElliottSo about an hour before I was due to take Leanne to the airport, I was out with the dogs, came back to the car, and there was a little puppy who'd just fallen asleep in the wheel arch, or actually, actually with its head through the, through the alloy wheel. And luckily, I spotted it when I arrived and I checked to see whether it was still knocking about. And luckily, I did check because otherwise, if I'd set off, things wouldn't have ended well for it.
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottNo, it wouldn't. So I did what, what every person, normal person would do and thought, right, tried to find the owner and then brought it back. And so we're looking after it now, trying to find a home for it. Very, very beautiful little thing. So confident.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo cute.
Leanne ElliottShe's really cute. She's like the Andrex puppy. Anyone from the UK, the Andrex advert, she looks exactly like the Andrex puppy. You understand though.
Al ElliottBut minier. Yeah. You also understand though that you say the Andrex puppy, but you say if you're from the UK, but if you're from the UK and you are like 35 years old, Are the Andrex puppies not still in the adverts? Are they not? I don't know.
Leanne ElliottI don't know.
Al ElliottI haven't seen a cookie advert for a long time.
Leanne ElliottIf only there was a way to find out.
Al ElliottYes, so we've been a little distracted. Currently, we're hoping that the chew we've just given her is going to last for about an hour while we finish this recording. But if you are interested, then maybe drop us an email or something and we'll send you some pictures of this lovely little pup. Very, very cute.
Leanne ElliottYeah. She's very sweet and we're looking that she can travel as well. So if you are abroad and you want a dog, we might be able to help. And also breaking news, 2026, the Andrex puppy does still remain a central figure in the Andrex campaign.
Al ElliottNot the same one though, as from what I remember from the name changes.
Leanne ElliottI think it's probably a slightly different pup.
Al ElliottUnless it's been on that guy's Eternal Life podcast and is now taking supplements and He's just staying the same age.
Leanne ElliottYeah. I mean, I don't even buy that, to be honest, because I think he looks kind of old. Do you not think though? Looks a bit like, like he's been moulded like children. Yeah, exactly.
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah. He does a little bit. He does a little bit. And also talks a lot about erections, which I am not really a fan of.
Leanne ElliottYeah. It got to get to the point, hasn't it, where if you're focusing so much on staying alive, you're not spending enough time living?
Al ElliottOh, now that's a great point. A great point. Just before we go into the news roundup, I just want to say hello to our friend Richard Clark. He's, uh, now he's been a guest. Have we had him on yet or is he going on? I can't remember.
Leanne ElliottNo, he is due out. I can give you the date if you want.
Al ElliottWhile Leanne's looking, I will just say that he sent us a really, really lovely, um, lovely email. He said, I think you guys are really good, like properly good. And he said, you've kicked Adam Grant off my podcast list.
Leanne ElliottShut the door.
Al ElliottI know. So that's genuinely, Richard, one of the best, the best compliments you could give us.
Leanne ElliottWow. That's probably the The greatest accomplishment of my career.
Al ElliottI believe it might be. I mean, yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottBecause there's one person out there that thinks I'm better than Adam Grant, and I'll take it.
Al ElliottAlso, he asked about my story, so I sent him back to episode 16, and he reckons that it should be a mini documentary. So there we go. I agree.
Leanne ElliottIf you haven't heard Al's story about how he went from kind of budding— what, you were in the 40 Under 40, weren't you?
Al Elliott42 Under 42.
Leanne Elliott42 Under 42. From that to A lot of bankruptcy. And then bouncing back. It's quite the story. Go check it out. What episode was it again?
Al ElliottEpisode 16. What an early day.
Leanne Elliott16. And Richard, your episode is going to be with us on the 21st of May.
Al ElliottLovely. Lovely. Okay, so talking of things upcoming, I believe it is that time of the week. It's your favourite time of the week. What time is it, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottIt is time for the News Roundup, Al. Cue the jingle.
Al ElliottJingle is cued. Leanne, what have you seen?
Leanne Elliott5 skills LinkedIn says will AI-proof your career in 2026. Okay.
Al ElliottRight, go on.
Leanne ElliottSo this one was actually reported in Inc. and based on a new book from LinkedIn CEO Ryan Roslansky. Is that how the Americans would say it? I want to say Roslansky, but I'm guessing it's Roslansky.
Al ElliottSure. If you're listening, Ryan, drop us an email.
Leanne ElliottAlso the Chief Economic Opportunity Officer, Aneesh Raman. So the idea is this: AI, as we know, is already reshaping work, and that's going to continue But it's not gonna replace work, and it's not gonna replace our role in it. Instead, as people, we are gonna get ahead if we can lean into the things that are the hardest to automate. So the very human side of work, as we've had previous conversations about on the show before. In this book, they've tried to simplify that into 5 core capabilities that they call the 5 Cs.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think there's a joke in here around some tech leaders Being like the 5 Cs.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottBut I'm not quick enough to get to it, nor am I allowed to swear at that level.
Al ElliottFair enough. Okay.
Leanne ElliottSo I'll move on.
Al ElliottSo just so I'm clear, these 5 Cs are more like traits of a job that cannot be taken rather than actual job titles, is that right?
Leanne ElliottNo, these are capabilities that an individual, the skills that an individual can develop to be AI-proof in 2026.
Al ElliottLet's get to it.
Leanne ElliottAnd you'll like this, Al, because they all begin with C.
Al ElliottYes, I like that.
Leanne ElliottThe first is curiosity. So the idea is that AI can generate answers, but it still needs someone to decide what questions are worth asking, which ideas are worth pursuing, and where to focus attention. So their argument is that the real advantage sits with people who stay open, keep learning, and actively try to understand how these tools fit into their work.
Al ElliottMakes sense.
Leanne ElliottThe second is courage, which sounds a bit abstract, but they're basically grounding it in decisions made every day. So it's about acting without having perfect information, suggesting better ways of doing things mid-project, or challenging people if it doesn't quite feel right. Their idea being that in a world that's changing very, very quickly, waiting for certainty just isn't an option.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThen we have creativity. So they're talking about the ability to come up with something new, not just reworking what already exists. And their point is that it isn't limited to creative roles. It's just as relevant. Creativity is just as relevant in operations, sales, products, etc. The fourth is compassion, which is how we work with other people. So understanding context, building trust, and finally communication. They said, especially in moments of uncertainty, being able to explain what's happening, make sense of change, and bring people with you is going to be really important. What is it is quite interesting about apparently how they've arrived at this is they haven't. just decided it themselves. They've spoken to neuroscientists and org psychs and behavioural economists and talent leaders, and this is the list that they've, they've got to. So it's not the things that AI can replicate, it's the things that are actually quite human. Thoughts, Alastair?
Al ElliottFull name, you know. I'm going to push back a little bit then, because I think you said understanding context and noticing when someone's struggling. I think AI— I've noticed Claude does that. A lot better these days. So if I'm like, no, I've still not got this problem solved, they'll go, oh, don't worry, you're not being stupid. This is what, this is what the problem is. So I think that can be faked. Creativity. Goodness. Well, genuine creativity, as in like creating something that you're, that's amazing. Yes, AI probably isn't going to be great starting from the beginning, but with Claude Design being delivered this week and all sorts of stuff happening.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottAnd the number of times I, I, I think I'm quite a creative person, but the number of times I go in and go, I've got this idea, this is what I've got so far. And Claude will go, well, what about these other 3 things? And I'll go, yeah, that's a great idea. I never thought of that. I know it's pattern matching, so I, I don't know. I mean, I don't think these are quite as clear-cut as maybe they might want them to be.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I must admit I was expecting something a bit more impactful when I saw the headline. And the thing that also kind of kind of made me squint a bit is these aren't really new. Like, there's— we talk about— they call them capabilities, they're competencies in psychology research, which are usually very much linked to behaviour. And in terms of competencies, there's loads of research in terms of how many there could possibly be and all the frameworks. And it really— these 5 really echo to me what's called the Great 8 Competencies. Have you heard of this?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottSo it's from an organisation called SHL, which is a big, like, testing psychometric organisation, and they've done loads of research to come up with the Great 8, which basically is just mapped years of research around workplace behaviour and condensed it into 8 competencies. And when you line them up, they're kind of similar. So they had curiosity, SHL has analysing and interpreting, courage, leading and deciding, creativity, creating, compassion, supporting, cooperation. Communication, interacting, and presenting. So it kind of felt this is already stuff that's out there and has already been important. But they also missed out 3 of the Great 8, and one I thought was really, really, really important— adapting and coping.
Al ElliottMm.
Leanne ElliottSo how to handle pressure and uncertainty. Is there anything we need more in an AI world? So I don't know, I just kind of thought it isn't really new. It's definitely packaged up in a world of AI, but I think it's also got some holes in it.
Al ElliottYeah. See, now, yeah, maybe because adaptability didn't begin with C, so that's why I didn't make it in there.
Leanne ElliottI mean, obviously, this is just a little extract from, from a full book that I have not read. Full disclosure. So the book may go into this. But equally, I'd want this— if it does, I'd want this picked up in, in the media— is that these are all, yeah, they're all really nice, very human competencies, aren't they? But as you've actually pointed out, Al, depending on how broad we are in how we talk about these, you know, AI Claude can do them. What I'd be much more excited about hearing from tech leaders, particularly LinkedIn, which is, you know, still traditionally a careers professional networking website, is what that looks like in terms of, of actual jobs that involve AI and what the human aspect of creativity looks like compared to the AI aspect and why it's important that organizations retain people with these skills and don't replace them with AI. I think that would give a lot more reassurance and clarity around actually how to AI-proof ourselves. It all seemed to be a little bit generic, and I'm guessing that's because at the moment we don't really know.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottWe don't really know. But it was nice to see tech leaders talking about competencies, and maybe this is a point where we'll actually start recruiting for them rather than just asking people those really annoying questions like, If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be? Yeah, I'd be a weeping willow because of the state of the world right now. Oh, that's sad.
Al ElliottWell, let me cheer you up with a story about our favourite crazy, crazy billionaire, Zuck, Mark Zuckerberg. So it was in The Guardian this week that Meta, which is the company that owns Facebook and Instagram and WhatsApp, I'm sure you know, you all know that, they know that, they're building a digital Mark Zuckerberg so employees don't have to wait I don't think I'm gonna stop you there.
Leanne ElliottI don't think we need 2 Mark Zuckerbergs. I think one is more than enough.
Al ElliottIt is. And also, I'm sorry, but Mark does come across a little bit like a droid already, so, uh, I'm not necessarily sure we need another one. But yes, so apparently Meta's training this AI clone, uh, of Zuck on his mannerisms, tone, and public statements so that employees can query him directly. So this, what made me think of was basically, remember, remember Clippy the paperclip?
Leanne ElliottYeah, in Word. Never really knew the answer to much, really. Yeah, yeah.
Al ElliottNo, Clippy was pretty fricking useless, but I'm just thinking we've got a Zucky. That's maybe what it's going to be called, a Zucky.
Leanne ElliottA Zucky.
Al ElliottSo it'll just pop up and say, I see that you're, you're trying to, you're trying to mine public data. Let's see if I can help you with that. Anyway, so apparently he's actively involved in training his own avatar. He's using his images and voice again, maybe just slightly tweaked the voice, add a little bit of I'm sorry, Zuck, but come on. Meta sees this as a template for creators and influencers, The Guardian says. Basically, what it sounds a bit like is that they're trying this out for Zuck, and then potentially they can add another string to their bow where they can create AR avatars for other businesses. So you'll get a, you'll get a Bezos, you'll get a, a Tim Cook, although he has just Announced he's leaving this week, I think. Tim Cook from Apple.
Leanne ElliottOh, really? Retiring?
Al ElliottYeah. I worked out he must be, he must be like 65, 67. He's not as old as you think. He's a bit like, do you remember, do you remember Naked Gun? Leslie Nielsen. And you watch Police Squad from back in the '60s or '70s.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd he was 150 back in the '70s. And then in the '90s, he looked just the same.
Leanne ElliottHe just, yeah.
Al ElliottYeah. Anyway, that's not my point. So apparently he's also been supported by something they've built in Meta, which is called a CEO agent, which is a personalized AI that feeds him internal company info faster. This is all part of his push, apparently, to flatten the organization and get more done. Come on, dude, you've done enough. You've done plenty. Anyway, all of this while Meta's facing $164 billion in, or maybe pounds, in penalties last month for misleading consumers and enabling child exploitation, apparently. So yeah, they've got full AI sprint mode and a massive legal crisis all at the same time. Lee, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottDo you know what? I can't— I've been watching the latest series of The Morning Show recently. Are you fully up to date with it? No. Okay.
Al ElliottNo, I think I'm at least one, if not two seasons behind.
Leanne ElliottReally? Okay. So being really vague then, so no spoilers. I think Mark has got this idea from The Morning Show. Because one of the CEOs in that show creates an AI version of themselves, with the idea that they then have AI versions of all different members of staff for this exact reason. So I think Mark's been sat there watching The Morning Show with a cup of tea going, I'm gonna do that. It didn't end well.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottIn The Morning Show. It didn't end well. It ended pretty frickin' badly, actually. So I can't wait to see how this turns out.
Al ElliottLee, well, the link is in the show notes. Lee, what else have you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottWould you read a complaint letter from your employee if it was 2,000 words long?
Al ElliottYou fell asleep? That's from Friends, in case you don't know. 8 sides, double. Anyway, I don't know. Yes, of course I would.
Leanne ElliottOf course you would. Of course you would.
Al ElliottZuck wouldn't. Zuck would just feed it into Claude.
Leanne ElliottYeah, he would. He'd get his other clone to do it. But then that clone's gonna be too busy as well, isn't it? And there'll end up being like 200 of them. It'd be like, you know, Mark 196 might have a couple of minutes later on this afternoon.
Al ElliottAnyway.
Leanne ElliottYou know what? It's a nice contrast to what, what Mark's doing, right? By basically creating a digital version of himself to spend time with staff. This one comes from Business Insider, and it was looking at the DoorDash CEO Tony Hsieh, who says he actually likes getting long, detailed emails from customers and staff, um, because it gives him all the data he needs to make changes within his business. So he was speaking on a podcast with David Zhenra and said that those longer messages are where the real insight is. The short ones often don't give him enough to work with, but the long ones is where he finds a lot of gold. Um, so he said that the staff, which they are called Dashers, will explain step by step where the system broke Oh, sorry, I think the customers are called Dashers as well. Also, why the logistics didn't work, what happened in the real world versus what the app expected to happen. And he doesn't just read them, he actually, in some cases, will go into the backend systems himself and track orders and debug the issues step by step to try and figure out what's actually going on. And DoorDash is a pretty big company now, right?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo he's surely got a lot of experience. other things to do. Um, he also said that he gets hundreds of messages every week. Many of them aren't positive, and his— and he likes that as well because he reckons the greatest killer of a business is usually silence. If people have taken the time to write in, then it means they care enough to flag a problem.
Al ElliottTotally agree. I mean, it's like, it's like any kind of review site. So if you go into Amazon reviews, if someone leaves a 1-star review and then 6 paragraphs. That's gold because they care enough to go on there and say how bad it was. Usually the 3-star reviews aren't very interesting unless again, they're very, there's lots of paragraphs there. So I think they often say though that the different, the opposite of love isn't hate, it's ambivalence. And I think that that is the issue with a lot of people is that if they care deeply about something, then even if they hate it, they still care deeply enough about it. And that gives you some rich insights. And I think this is Very, very smart. And I suppose it's, well, it might be different for a founder. He, did he found, did he, did he actually create the company anyway?
Leanne ElliottOh, I don't know.
Al ElliottMy thinking is if you're a founder and you get those kind of emails, that's quite personal cuz they're actually, they, they sort of having a go at what you've created. But if you are just the CEO, then—
Leanne ElliottHe is a founder. Right.
Al ElliottWell, even better. Well, well done, dude. What's his name? Zhu.
Leanne ElliottTony Hsu. Yeah.
Al ElliottTony Hsu.
Leanne ElliottAlong with Andy Fang, Stanley Tang, and Evan Moore.
Al ElliottOh, brilliant. That sounds like the world's best, the world's best legal firm. Fang, Tang, Hsu, and Moore. Is that right?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottFang, Tang, Hsu, and Moore. Oh, I love it. I love it. I love it.
Leanne ElliottIt sounds like do the fang tango. Thunderbolts of lightning.
Al ElliottAlso, FANG, I think, is the acronym for, um, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, and Google.
Leanne ElliottOh, is that a really good example of nominative determinism? We talked about that, didn't we?
Al ElliottMaybe there should be Fang de Fang to include DoorDash. Anyway, link is in the show notes, I'm guessing.
Leanne ElliottYeah, sure. I'll leave it there. I'll leave it there. And let us know, get in touch. Are you, are you Team Zuck or Team Zoo?
Al ElliottZoo or Zuck? I love this. Zoo or Zuck?
Leanne ElliottZuck or Zoo?
Al ElliottZuck or Zoo?
Leanne ElliottDo you think we should be using AI to just I guess give people access to us at scale, albeit in a very impersonal digital way? Or do we expect founders to want to take the time to actually boots on the ground and figure out what's going on? I think it's no surprise which team I am.
Al ElliottYes, and I'm that team too. Okay, we were going to take a very short break, and after the break we've got a truth or lie, which Leanne is going to debunk for us. I really like this one this week. I say that as if I don't like the other ones. I like all of them, but this one's very good.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which one. Phil Elliott, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that Encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottOh yeah. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Leanne ElliottKeep that in.
Al ElliottWelcome back to Truth or Lie. It's that time of the week where we take a popular workplace idea and ask Leanne if the research actually backs it up. Fun fact, it's not always Leanne. We had Dr. Jake on, uh, 2 weeks ago.
Leanne ElliottWe had Alexis Sarna did our Truth or Lie last week.
Al ElliottAnd then we've got another guy coming up, Chris, who I think, I think everyone's gonna really like. He's got a really, really good one. Anyway, this week, this week, this week. Come on, Al, stick to it. This week. So the claim is extroverts make more effective leaders. And to be fair, it's pretty easy to see where that's come from because you think of Winston Churchill or Steve Jobs or Richard Branson or Oprah or Sheryl Sandberg. These kind of people are the sort of people we celebrate as being magnetic and commanding and the sort of people who walk into a room and just fill it. But is it actually true? So, Leanne, are extroverts more effective leaders than introverts? Truth or lie?
Leanne ElliottYou know how I like to just start by nailing down exactly what we're talking about.
Al ElliottYes. So just fast forward 30 seconds. Don't worry.
Leanne ElliottSo there's 2 definitions here that we need to, we need to agree on before we move on. So first of all, what do we mean by extroversion? And second, what do we mean by effective leadership? So extroversion, as it is rightly defined, don't be giving this Myers-Briggs nonsense. Extroversion is one of the Big 5 personality traits. And the Big 5, and this is important, is a trait-based approach to personality. So trait means we sit on a continuum. So introversion is one end, extroversion is the other, and we all sit somewhere on that continuum.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWhereas Myers-Briggs would want to put you in the box. So you're either extrovert or you're introvert, and never the two shall meet.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo in this context, and in any useful context, any correct context, extroversion is one of the Big 5 personality traits. According to research, extroversion as a definition is basically when someone is orientated towards the external world. So extroverts really like social attention. They get that through being assertive and sociable and dominant in a lot of cases. They get energy from being around people. People, and they're biologically wired for what psychologists call higher reward sensitivity, which basically means they're naturally driven to seek status. Introversion is basically the opposite. So it's an orientation towards the inner world of ideas and feelings, and introverts are quieter and usually more emotionally reserved, and they recharge through spending time alone rather than being around lots of people. So that's what we mean by the definition of extroversion— assertive, Sociable, dominant. Effective leadership, and the definition of that is a little bit trickier because how long is a piece of string? But the research basically splits into 2 things. We're talking about leader emergence. That's whether somebody looks like a leader and whether others see them in that way.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd then we've got leader effectiveness, which is basically looking at whether the leader's team actually performs. And it's important to know as well that these things, These 2 things don't always match. So somebody can look like a leader and emerge as a leader, but not be very effective in terms of team performance.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottAnother idea, I guess, worth flagging that I'm not going to go into because we have talked about it before, is the idea that leaders are born and not made. We have done that as a truth or lie before. It kind of feeds into this whole great man theory. Go back to the episode. I will find it and put it in the show notes if you're interested in that specific slant on it. I'm not really going to dip into that today. Are we clear?
Al ElliottYes, we're clear. I like this. We've defined everything. We— and we don't even need to define the word definition because you've told us what that means. So yes, I think we're, we're all on the same page here, Lee. I like it.
Leanne ElliottGood. We're all in the car. So the case for the strongest evidence comes from a 2002 study by Timothy Judge and some of his mates. Rather than running a single experiment, they looked across 73 different studies and basically asked, if we add all this up, what does it tell us? What's that called, Al?
Al ElliottUm, do you know what, I'm sorry, I was distracted. Uh, give me the— give me the question again. Give me the question again.
Leanne ElliottSo rather than running a single study, they looked at 73 separate studies.
Al ElliottOh, so they did. So they did a meta-analysis.
Leanne ElliottThey did, they did. Which is— and I know we talk about it a lot, but we like them because it's a very reliable way to kind of draw conclusions because you're looking at, you're not kind of relying on one study, you're looking at a bigger sample of people and, you know, different settings. What they basically found was that extroversion was the single strongest personality predictor of leadership.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo, they measured the strength of that relationship using what we call correlation. Number, well, correlation is basically a number between 1 and 0. 0 meaning 2 things have nothing in common, 1 meaning they are perfectly correlated. You move, she moves, soulmates kind of thing. And typically we'll get a number somewhere in between. They got a correlation of 0.31. And do you remember our little trick, Al? If you square a correlation, you get the predictive percentage.
Al ElliottYes. So 0.31 times 0.31 is 10%.
Leanne ElliottExactly. So extroversion accounts for around 10% of what determines whether someone is seen as a leader. So what the researchers looked at here is leader emergence. It might not sound like very much, But across every personality trait researchers tested, nothing predicted leadership more consistently than extroversion.
Al ElliottOh, really?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo even though it's quite, it's only 10%, it's actually, that's one of the highest things that predict leaderhood.
Leanne ElliottPersonality aspects.
Al ElliottPersonality aspects of leader emergence.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottNot necessarily of leader effectiveness.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo a larger review in 2019 pulled together 97 different studies. And that looked at 165 different work-related variables. What's that in English, please? Of course, it's things like job performance, motivation, communication, satisfaction, and leadership effectiveness. So extroversion in these— this meta-analysis was linked to better outcomes in 90% of the workplace factors.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottSo for leadership specifically as well, in terms of leadership effectiveness, the correlation was 0.34, which is around 12%. of what drives leadership ratings. This is how individuals would rate the effectiveness of their leader.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne Elliott2 other studies looked at how all this works in practice. A 2022 study found that extroverted leaders tend to be more engaged at work, so they're more energised and more invested, and that engagement translates into better team performance. Then we have a study following almost 400 military leaders over 2 years, What's that called, Al?
Al ElliottA longitudinal study.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is.
Al ElliottDanny Waring would like that military study.
Leanne ElliottHe would, he would. They found that extroversion predicted effectiveness through something very specific, and that was their leader's own confidence in their ability to lead. So if a leader felt confident, that confidence shaped how they performed.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottWe then have some research on transformational leadership. That's the style associated with inspiring and motivating people, which we probably associate with these extroverted leaders like Steve Jobs and Oprah. They found that extroversion is the strongest, again, it's the strongest personality predictor. So extroverts tended to come across as charismatic, and charisma sits at the heart of transformational leadership.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo the case for the claim is fairly real actually, because we've got some large samples here across settings. Extroversion consistently points towards leadership.
Al ElliottAnd that makes sense because you feel like the, you know, the Steve Jobs coming on a stage. That's— I hope no one clips that and just— Steve Jobs appearing on a stage. And then you're almost like you're enthralled by it. So you sit there and like Tony Robbins is another example where you just sit there and assuming you agree with what he's doing, you're like, oh my God, this guy's a god.
Leanne ElliottDo you think that's still a thing? Or do you think this falls into now like millennial Gen X cringe? that the Gen Zs and Alphas would talk about. Because I'm thinking about— have you seen that film Don't Look Up?
Al ElliottUh, yes, I think so. George? No.
Leanne ElliottWith like Meryl Streep, and there's the, um, and Jennifer what's-her-name.
Al ElliottGarner?
Leanne ElliottNo, other one. Lawrence.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd there's the asteroid that's gonna hit Earth.
Al ElliottOh, I think so.
Leanne ElliottAnd the tech leader in that who like comes on stage with like a— and it's like, oh, cringy, cringy. I just wonder if that's a bit that now.
Al ElliottI don't Oh, I bet it is. I bet it is. We'll never know because we never hang around with these people. They're not interested in us at all. If you're under the age of 20, let us know whether that's true.
Leanne Elliott20? I think under 30 is generally accepted. Oh, really?
Al ElliottSee, I told you how out of touch. Anyway, right, back to the thing. So that was the argument for. If you left it at that, I'd be like, right, okay, I agree 100%. This is that an extroverted person will be a great leader.
Leanne ElliottThat's my thoughts. Yeah. And that's often where The trouble lies is that people read one source of information or verdict on something and then go, right, well, there you go. I know the answer without critically analysing what else is out there, Al, which is what we do, which is why this segment works so well. Don't you think?
Al ElliottYes. Although the look in your eyes suggests that we've got the for now, have we?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottNo, the against.
Leanne ElliottNo, that's the for.
Al ElliottThat's the for. So now let's have the against.
Leanne ElliottTo the against. So the cracks in this start to appear When we actually ask the question, if we're looking at leaders, whose teams are actually performing better?
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo forget about emergence, forget about how their direct reports might rate them in terms of effectiveness. How is the team actually performing? Now, our good friend Adam Grant did some research on this in 2011.
Al ElliottWhose podcast has just been knocked off one of our listeners' lists.
Leanne ElliottYes, shame. He—
Al ElliottIt's been a mixed week for you, Adam, really, isn't it? Sorry, what did I do?
Leanne ElliottWhat you should really do, Adam, is actually come on the podcast and then we can say, you know, some of this joke. There you go. Anyway, Adam did some wonderful work with some of his friends back in 2011, and they tracked actual store profits across 57 pizza delivery branches over 7 weeks. They found that it depended entirely on the team in terms of how effective the leader was. So when, when employees were happy to follow instructions, extroverted managers produced better results. But when employees were proactive, they were regularly coming up with ideas and changes, extroverted managers actually performed worse, and the quieter managers outperformed them.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottThey then tested this in a lab with 163 participants, and they got the same results. The reason, they said, came down to the idea that proactive employees felt that extroverted leaders weren't really listening. And there wasn't much room for their ideas, whereas quieter leaders made more space. So basically, the best results came when the leader's style matched the team's behaviour.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Okay. So a bit more recent, 2022 added another layer to this. The energy and drive extroverted leaders bring is most useful when goals are vague and the path is a bit uncertain. So when an organisation is very sure about where they are, they have very clear processes, lots of structure, lots of clearly defined goals, the advantage of being an extrovert completely pretty much disappears. So extroverts are kind of good when nobody knows what they're doing. Then we have a Norwegian study, Karlsson and Langvik. I just wanted to say Langvik.
Al ElliottNice.
Leanne ElliottThey looked inside extroversion itself and broke it down a little bit more. So as we said, when our definition is different components to being an extrovert. So they actually looked at these individual components. So they looked at assertiveness, which is like speaking up, taking charge, pursuing goals. That was linked to better leadership outcomes. But excitement-seeking, so that desire for novelty and risk, was rated negatively by teams on how well their leader managed people and got results. The study was relatively small, So, we need to approach those with some caution. But what's really interesting about this one and important about this one is that the research has made the point that extroversion isn't one thing. It's lots of, it's, you know, it's a few different, it will translate into a few different behaviours that will have different impacts in terms of leadership.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd this is where we kind of shift away from personality and into behaviour research, because behaviour is actually what plays out in the organisation, isn't it? Rather than how we prefer to recharge ourselves or, or kind of, where we feel at our best selves. It's how those traits actually translate into, into behavior. Then the research I wanted to pull up on this comes from Beverly Alimo Metcalf and Robert Alban Metcalf.
Al ElliottWait, wait, I know this.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottBev and Bob. I know this. This is Juliette Alban Metcalf, the one who was, she was our guest about 6 weeks ago.
Leanne ElliottYes, she was. She comes from a very— Real world people. A very strong psychology dynasty, just Juliet. And this is genuinely groundbreaking research, groundbreaking leadership research. It was in the UK. It looked at the public sector and almost 1,500 managers. And they asked them to describe the behaviours of the best leader they'd ever worked with directly.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd the single most powerful factor, which explained twice as much variance as all other factors combined, was genuine concern for others.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottSo these were things like listening, supporting development, showing real interest in individuals was so important. Whereas things like charisma, inspiration, the qualities that were most associated with extroversion, extroversion were far less effective. So bear in mind, as I said, genuine concern explains twice as much variance as all of the factors combined together.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottAnd we know that that is something that is typically a behavior we see more from introverted people.
Al ElliottOh, so this is a plot twist.
Leanne ElliottIt is a plot twist. There's also research, and I can't remember whether it was this specific research or whether it was a follow-up study from Bev and Bob, but I can't— I'm so sorry, Juliette, if you're listening.
Al ElliottBev and Bob?
Leanne ElliottFrom, yes, from them. Um, that actually was one of the few studies to actually show causation. So, we talk a lot about correlation. They actually dug deeper and found causation in terms of organisational performance, um, around this behaviour model. Anyway, moving then to, I guess, keeping with this kind of behaviour theme, there was a large 2024 meta-analysis that found a pattern behaviour called honesty-humility.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne Elliottwhich is treating people fairly, avoiding exploitation, not seeking status for one's own sake. And that predicted leadership effectiveness with a correlation of 0.25. When you added that to the standard personality model, that doubled the amount of leadership effectiveness researchers could explain from 4% to 10%.
Al ElliottInteresting.
Leanne ElliottSo, when you kind of combine these behaviours with personality, we get some real weight in terms of predicting leadership effectiveness. One final thing, I guess, to say on this kind of as against— most studies measure leadership effectiveness by asking people to rate their leader. And that isn't always very effective because there was a 2007 analysis that found those ratings were shaped by what people expect a leader to look like. So, what stereotypical visions do we have of leaders? So, if they're loud and gregarious like Steve Jobs walking around on stage, We see that as an effective leader. Extroverts fit that, so we tend to rate them higher in terms of our perception of what a leader should be.
Al ElliottExcellent. Okay, I get that. So I think from what you said there, I'm veering towards it is a lie, but what's the actual official stamp on this?
Leanne ElliottYou're right, Al. You're right. It's a lie, or at least it's not enough of a truth to be useful. Because the evidence for the claim is kind of real. Extroversion is the single strongest personality predictor of leadership across decades of research. But there's 2 kind of problems with that oversimplification. The first is the numbers themselves. So even as the strongest personality predictor, it still only explains 10% of what makes somebody an effective leader. There's a whole 90% of a pitch that has nothing to do With extroversion, and more than likely nothing to do at all with personality. Personality is not a very effective predictor of leadership effectiveness. And as we've said, the second is actually what's being measured. So yes, there is a strong relationship between extroversion and leader emergence, but leader emergence, looking like a leader and being seen like a leader, does not necessarily, and in most cases doesn't translate to being effective in terms of team performance. So I've kind of gone, it could be, it depends, I guess, technically, but I'm like, no, it's a lie. Yeah.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottBecause the fact is, if you are a business leader out there who wants to hire a leader, the last thing that you probably wanna look at is introversion or extroversion. Neither are particularly, particularly standalone as personality traits effective in terms of predicting future performance. But what we do know is that the behaviours are what we call prosocial behaviours. Things like listening, genuine concern for people, creating space is one of the biggest predictors of effective leadership in terms of actual team performance, which is where I always kind of prefer behaviour-based assessment tools in recruitment as opposed to personality.
Al ElliottBeautiful. I love that. I love that because I honestly thought it was going the other way. I think there's lots of people you can think of who are outgoing and you'd be like, yeah, they're, you know, yeah, they're born leaders. Look at them. Like we talked about the eldest as well, didn't we? At one point, I think we were saying we think they're born leaders and you can get it. But no, it makes perfect sense. It makes absolutely perfect sense. So maybe Zuck is actually, because he's slightly more introverted, which Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd my question being, is Mark Zuck, by creating a digital clone of himself, showing genuine concern for people?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottI don't know.
Al ElliottMaybe.
Leanne ElliottDepends how good that clone is and how it's used, I guess. But it doesn't scream, I really care about my people.
Al ElliottNo. Unless he's actually going, I can't, I don't, there's not enough of me to listen to everyone, so I'm creating this. But even then, I don't know. I don't know. You got— you're going to do something in the aggregate with the data.
Leanne ElliottIt doesn't have to just be you, does it, as a singular one person?
Al ElliottFabulous.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, maybe we should do narcissism next.
Al ElliottOh, maybe, maybe. Why'd you look so much at me when you said that?
Leanne ElliottNo, I was looking at Mark.
Al ElliottOkay, so we've got another one of those coming up next week. If you have your own that you'd like us to either— maybe it's a question for Leanne, or maybe you are some kind of fancy schmancy scientist and you want to come on like Chris. Who's coming on, I think it's next week or week after, I can't remember. We've got Dr. Jake coming back. We've got loads of people in the pipeline to come and give you one of these Truths or Lies. If it sounds like you, drop us a line.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBe interested. Okay, so I think it's on to our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne, I have 3 questions, as would be my wont. Question number 1, should I bother with engagement surveys? This person says, I've been thinking about introducing engagement surveys into my business, but a conversation with another business owner has made me doubt myself. Their view was that surveys cost time, money, and don't really lead to meaningful change. It's made me question whether I'm just measuring problems rather than fixing them. So I'm unsure, are they actually worth doing, or am I better off focusing on other ways to understand how my team are feeling? We should have got, we should have got, we should have got Bill Yost in for this one. We're going to channel your inner Bill Yost. Tell us what your thoughts are, Leigh.
Leanne ElliottCan I channel my inner Leanne instead? Because I do this stuff too, you know.
Al ElliottYes, that's a good point. That's a good point. Sorry, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottIt's okay.
Al ElliottOh no.
Leanne ElliottBill's better than me.
Al ElliottBill's got a pirate flag.
Leanne ElliottWhat would Bill say?
Al ElliottWhat would Leanne say?
Leanne ElliottSurveys, yeah, they do cost time and money, and they're not going to lead to any meaningful change as a survey alone. A survey is a diagnostic, and it'll help you understand the problem. You're trying to solve. So, if your colleague, this fellow business owner, is running a survey expecting it to drive change, then respectfully, they're doing it wrong. We just need to use surveys amongst other methods to help define the problem. John Amici talked about this in his book, and I thought it's a really nice way of putting it. The most powerful thing you can do for somebody who's lost is tell them where they are. And this is exactly what a really great engagement survey or psychosocial risk survey or culture survey will do. It will tell you exactly kind of what's working within your business right now, what's not working so well, and where the real risk hotspots are, so you can design bespoke interventions to actually target the problem and drive some meaningful change. So, I guess to answer your question, Succinctly, yes, engagement surveys are worth doing to help you define the problem. You can use other ways to understand how your team are feeling. I would never use a survey just in isolation alone. I'd want to pair that with focus groups or conversations with the senior leadership team, an understanding of systems and documentation within the organisation to give a bit more context. They're really good ways of gathering this data as well, but either way—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottHowever you gather the data, acting on it is the most important thing. If you're going to gather feedback and do nothing with it, I promise you will do more damage. It's better just not bothering at all. So, they are useful. There are other ways of gathering the data, but the most important thing is actually doing something with it.
Al ElliottFabulous. Fabulous. Far better than what Bill Yost would have said.
Leanne ElliottI doubt it. I think he would have made a funny joke or Compared, I don't know, brought in pirates or something.
Al ElliottMaybe, maybe. But I think that's a really good point that a lot of people think I'm going to do an engagement survey because I need to fix things. And like you've said, that's like going to the doctor and saying, I've got a sore leg, and them just going, you know, that's actually a bad example because the doctor would also tell you what was wrong and give you something to fix it. But that's a bad example.
Leanne ElliottBut no, it's the right analogy. It's just the other way around, isn't it? So you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't go to a hospital and a doctor just say, just look at you and go, oh, you've got a broken leg and put you in a cast for 6 weeks. You'd expect them to do some investigations, some diagnostics before they do that. And that's what engagement surveys are. They're a diagnostic.
Al ElliottThank you for rescuing my analogy there, Leanne. I appreciate it. Okay, on to question number 2. Is generational tension something I'm supposed to fix? So this person, the background of this person, they manage a mixed-age team and they've discovered the tension between younger and older employees becoming a real issue. So they say, My Gen Z team member set— sorry, my Gen Z team members set clear boundaries and want quick feedback and reasoning behind decisions. Some of the more experienced staff see that as entitlement or a lack of commitment. I'm finding myself spending more time managing the friction than the actual work. Is this something I'm responsible for, Leanne? As a manager, should I be fixing this? Thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottCool. Question number 3. Why is it that— see, my instinct would be like, no, let them get on with it. Because it's them who's having the— who decided that the older people decided that people are entitled, young people are entitled, and then the younger people have probably decided the old people are just old farts who just don't know anything.
Leanne ElliottYeah, but they're probably not going to get on with it without some kind of intervention to bring them, bring them together, is it? I think, I guess first of all, is it's, it could be a generational thing. Those labels can be helpful, and they, if you look at them in terms of cohorts, they can also be unhelpful in terms of creating divides. So I'd be careful about how when you're talking this through with the team, describing them as like Gen Z or Gen X or boomers or whatever else. Because I think that the fact is, whether it's about age or not, what you're basically seeing is a clash of expectations about work. So you've got one group who really values clarity and feedback and firm boundaries, and others that really value autonomy and trust and a sense of earning authority and reputation. And both are actually pretty reasonable. None of them are, you know, none of that's wrong. They've just been shaped in kind of different, different environments. So, I think in terms of what you can do as a manager is kind of take these unspoken norms and start to articulate them. And it's what, you know, we might call it, if you do it formally, like a team charter in terms of what good looks like, what's expected.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottOr you could just have this kind of general conversation about it. I think it's sometimes worth putting things down on paper or in a document somewhere, just so you don't leave things open to interpretation. And it's defining things like, as a team, how quickly do we think people should get feedback? When is it okay to challenge decisions? What does good communication look like?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd when you're having those conversations, it's important to kind of I've reframed all of them as strengths. So it's not that people are entitled, people are pushing for clarity and transparency. Or it's not that kind of, you know, your Gen Xs are rigid, it's just people who bring experience and judgment to a situation that should be respected. So I think having these kind of conversations and framing them very much as strengths kind of shifts what is currently a conflict into how we could use our skills and strengths in a complementary way for the benefit of the team. I also think as well, we know from the research that in terms of engagement and performance, when we have different people with different experience working together, we see that diversity of thinking, and that does translate into higher engagement, high performance. So, this is a really great opportunity for you because what you, you now know.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottis you have a diverse team, and diverse teams are really, really great to have. But the risk is, is leaving it with so much unstructured expectation around what the behaviours of that team should be, it can turn into some of the friction and instability that you're seeing. So, I think it's worth having that conversation and turning the situation into something that could be actually really useful for you as a manager, as an organisation, as a team.
Al ElliottI love it. I love it. Um, you did a segment. If this, if you're listening, the person who wrote this, and also you, um, you're, you have a similar thing. Leanne did a little segment, um, a little while ago, and I can't remember which one it was, but you said something like you, you gave some examples of what people said about a generation.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottAnd then there was, I won't spoil it, but there was some surprises. So if it's a quite, quite a fun game you could play. Um, so, uh, that sounds like something you definitely should go and listen to. Leanne, are you ready for the final question?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottOkay, so this person is about to start a new job and they're saying, what do I look out for in my first few weeks? So they say, they say, I'm about to start a new job. I'm trying to go in with my eyes open in those first few days or weeks. What are the signs you've joined a genuinely healthy workplace versus one that might be a bit of a disaster? What should we be paying attention to? Oh, this sounds like something you probably should have done before you accepted the job, perhaps. But anyway, who am I to say?
Leanne ElliottYeah, maybe. I guess it's hard to get in there really, isn't it, and get enough information. But you're right, you should have, you know, done some due diligence by maybe getting in touch with people who already work in the organisation. But the fact is you've got a new job. Congratulations, mate.
Al ElliottCongratulations.
Leanne ElliottWell done. And what I like, this is kind of going into it with, in kind of like, I'm in control of this situation, whereas there can feel a lack of control, I guess, if you've, you maybe feel like you've been misled at some point down the line. But so I like this. I think A healthy workplace as a new employee basically means that somebody's thought about your experience. You're not an afterthought. People are fairly consistent in what they say. So, if you're going to different team members or leaders, the messaging is generally the same. And clarity— you know where you stand, what expectations are, and all that kind of good stuff. So, in terms of structure, things to look out for: is there a clear onboarding plan? Ideally, they would have already given you that. Onboarding plan before you start so you know what's going to happen. That's going to include things like time set aside for you actually to learn how things work, not just figure out as you go along, meeting key people. And it all feels intentional, you know. It's not just that people are like, oh, I'll look after you because I've got time today. There's some kind of intended structure to it. Um, in terms of, of more clarity, what's expected to you, what's expected in the first 30 days, 90 days, what does success look like, what the prioritized priorities of your job and how does that fit into the bigger priorities of the organisation? And I think really, does what you were sold match the reality that you're now in? So, in terms of the culture, in terms of flexible working, in terms of any policies they promised you, in terms of what workload looks like, how the team interacts together, is going to be really important. And I think finally, it's how people interact. Like, how do they talk when they're being honest, when the boss isn't in the room, when there may be a cup of tea, or you're just over Slack, or, or whatever else. Like, is the tone fairly positive? Is it fairly negative or cynical? Are people talking behind other people's backs? That's, you know, the obvious kind of signs of, of toxicity or some incivility. So I think they're the, the main things to look out for. But I think that that first week is going to tell you a lot in terms of that onboarding plan. And even if it's not as structured as you would have liked, or It's if there's somebody genuinely interested in the experience you're having in your first week, I think that's a really good sign.
Al ElliottExcellent. You've just given us a masterclass on, on onboarding people there. That is brilliant. That should be, we should do something on that soon. I think.
Leanne ElliottOnboarding?
Al ElliottYeah, I do think, I think in sales and marketing is one of the most experienced, most important parts of it. When someone's just said yes, you want to be delighting them. And so it's, but I think we probably just think, oh, well, you know, Dave starts today. Oh, well, there you go. There's our SOPs on a Google Drive. Go and watch these videos and we'll talk to you tomorrow.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah, absolutely. Okay, so if you have your— thank you, Leanne. If you have your own question that you want to put to Leanne, then check out the show notes, way to get in touch with us. Next Thursday, or this Thursday actually, we're joined by Aidan Feeder. Um, funnily enough, I think Feeder is an Isle of Man name and Aidan is Irish— Italian, so he's, he's Isle of Italia.
Leanne ElliottUm, is he from the Isle of Man?
Al ElliottNo, I think it's— I think it may be his mum is and his dad's from Italy.
Leanne ElliottHave you ever been to the Isle of Man?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottHave you?
Al ElliottNo. No. Well, I have a friend who goes quite regularly because of the TT races, the motorbike races.
Leanne ElliottOh yeah. I'd like to go actually.
Al ElliottI should. We will go after this.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottAnyway, so Aidan is going to join us. One of the most incredible— I'm not going to spoil it— one of the most incredible founder stories you're going to hear this year, I think. So definitely stay tuned for that. Leanne, anything else to add before we let these good people go?
Leanne ElliottNo, usual. All the links are in the show notes, including how to get in touch with us. Come and follow along on LinkedIn. I was gonna say Facebook then.
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottWe've not been on Facebook for 2 decades. Uh, yeah, go over to LinkedIn, search for me, Al, Truth, Lies and Work. That's where the convo finishes. Don't forget to tag us in anything you see. We do mention it. We have a few things that people have sent in, like James Hardy sent in that his article. If you're interested in doing a truth or lie, it just makes our job easier because we don't have to find it.
Al ElliottAnd also we could showcase some other amazing people.
Leanne ElliottYes, that too.
Al ElliottYes. Okay. Right. So we'll see you next week. Bye. Oh, see you Thursday. Sorry, I got it wrong. See you Thursday. Bye. Bye.