Episode 47 · 13 July 2023 · 1:06:25
What SME Leaders Can Learn from Corporate Giants’ Playbooks
What SME Leaders Can Learn from Corporate Giants’ Playbooks
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Intro — the £160BN, 350,000-employee room
News roundup — 'rich session', Threads vs Twitter, and Elon's leadership style
news roundup#news-roundup#threads-vs-twitter#elon-musk-leadership
The 6 corporate lessons begin — meet the guests
intro#corporate-lessons#guest-introductions#attracting-talent
Lesson 1 — Wellbeing isn't a perk, it's a business strategy
panel interview#wellbeing#business-strategy#employee-wellness
Lesson 2 — Don't skip the science
panel interview#science#evidence-based#people-analytics
Lesson 3 — Leaders, find your purpose
panel interview#leadership-purpose#authentic-purpose#leaders
Lesson 5 — Redefine success
panel interview#redefine-success#success-metrics#organizational-success
Lesson 6 — Stop being the hero, be the guide
panel interview#leadership-style#guide-not-hero#employee-development
3 action points — Listen, Experiment, Consolidate
panel interview#action-points#experimentation#consolidation
Wrap-up and what's coming next
Show notes
What SME Leaders Can Learn from Corporate Giants' Playbooks
This week, Al and Leanne sit down with five senior leaders from some of the world's largest corporations — Microsoft, Laing O'Rourke, Jaguar Land Rover, Ocado Group, and Dentsu International — to uncover the people and culture playbooks that keep 350,000+ employees engaged, and translate them into practical lessons for SMEs and owner-led businesses.
Between them, these corporate giants represent more than £160BN in revenue (that's over US$200BN) and more than 350,000 employees. But as Al and Leanne discover, the best practice on display isn't locked away in boardrooms — it's surprisingly accessible, and often simpler than you'd think.
From wellbeing programmes that actually land, to why "don't skip the science" should be your new mantra, to the power of listening before you act — this episode distills six corporate lessons and three action points you can apply this week, whatever size your business.
🔥 The Six Corporate Lessons
1. Wellbeing isn't a nice-to-have — it's a business strategy. Karen from Microsoft shares how her team built "Thrive," an engagement platform based on four pillars of wellbeing, with exec sponsorship, a recognisable brand, and nearly 6,000 employees invited into their calendars. The lesson? Make wellbeing visible, make it easy, and make it part of the business agenda — not a side project.
2. Don't skip the science. If you're a regular listener, you know Leanne's stance on this. The corporate leaders all echoed it: use the evidence, engage experts when you need them, and build double-loop learning into how you work. The science of people is psychology — and it's not a statement, it's a feeling you create.
3. Leaders, find your purpose. Dr. Steve Iley from Jaguar Land Rover surprised Al with his answer — he got into occupational health by accident, but found purpose in the work itself. The lesson? Great leaders not only live by their purpose, they communicate it to inspire others. You can't fake purpose, but you can find it.
4. (You'll have to listen for this one — trust us, it's worth it.)
5. Redefine success. Arthi from Ocado shares a penny-drop moment from her Olympic psychology work: success isn't just about outcomes. And Steve agrees — the athletes he worked with discovered that success was about more than winning. For SMEs, this means broadening what "good" looks like beyond the bottom line.
6. Stop being the hero, be the guide. Daniel from Dentsu points out there's no point mandating what you should do based on what other people are doing. Karen agrees — even within Microsoft, different employees need different things. Listen, empower your people, and build your own community of wellbeing champions.
🎯 Three Action Points
- Listen. It might be the most impactful skill you'll learn as a leader. One of our guests spent her first two years just listening — and it paid off.
- Experiment. You're lucky — you're not Microsoft with 200,000 employees. You can try things quickly, measure what works, and keep it simple.
- Consolidate. Once you've experimented, it's time to pull all those interventions together. As Leanne says: "Consistency and synergy are the siblings of intention." (Yes, she made that up. Yes, it's going on a t-shirt.)
More From Today's Guests
Connect with Dr. Steve Iley (Jaguar Land Rover): linkedin.com/in/dr-steve-iley
Connect with Dr. Kate Goodger (Laing O'Rourke): linkedin.com/in/kate-goodger-phd-c-psychol-7ba6b379
Connect with Daniel Chan (Dentsu International): linkedin.com/in/danielchan-tc
Connect with Karen Sancto (Microsoft): linkedin.com/in/karensancto
Connect with Arthi Kashyap-Aynsley (Ocado): linkedin.com/in/arti-kashyap-aynsley-0a16871
More From Truth, Lies & Work
Listen back for more on:
- Neurodiversity 101: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/neurodiversity-101_2286
- 4-Day Work Week 101: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/4-day-work-week-for-business-owners-and-leaders_2251
- Don't Be an Ahole — Rule #1 of Leadership:** truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/dont-be-an-asshole-boss_1905
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
KateNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
KateIt's about listening and it's helping people to feel heard because arguably that's one of our biggest challenges. People don't feel that they don't have time, they're not paid attention to, they don't know how to communicate it, they don't know how to say stuff.
Leanne ElliottHello, and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYeah, so this is our second ever video podcast. If you're listening on Spotify, then I don't think you can see video podcasts. podcast on Spotify. Maybe you can, maybe we'll find a way to do it. But if you're watching on YouTube, then please forgive us because we're not video nerds. Um, we're not getting this right all the time, but, um, we're getting there, I hope.
ArtiYeah, yeah, yeah.
Al ElliottSo this is very exciting, this episode, because we are talking to 5 corporate giants. So we're talking to Microsoft, we're talking to Ocado, we're talking to Jaguar Land Rover, we're talking to Dentsu, which is the, like, the 5th largest advertising company in the world. And we're talking to Laing O'Rourke, which is a huge construction company in the UK. Overall, I think they represent, I think Leanne worked it out, $200 billion, um, is what their turnover or their worth is. And they have over 230,000 employees worldwide. Big fish.
Leanne Elliott350, actually.
Al ElliottIs it 350?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottHave they just recruited?
Leanne ElliottUh, no, I think you just read it wrong.
Al ElliottBut first is our favourite time of the week. It's the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottCue the jingle.
?So what have we got this week, Leah?
Leanne ElliottI have a new word!
Al ElliottNew word alert!
Leanne ElliottRich session.
Al ElliottSay it again.
Leanne ElliottRich session.
Al ElliottRich session.
Leanne ElliottRich session. Like recession, but rich session.
?Recession.
Leanne ElliottThere's too many S's in there for my liking.
Al ElliottRish session.
Leanne ElliottRich session.
Al ElliottRich session. Why is it rich session?
Leanne ElliottUh, well, apparently this was a term that I came across in an article today— uh, not today, this week. at the Wall Street Journal have coined the term richcession to describe an economic slump that hits the rich harder. So I can't imagine this story is going to necessarily generate lots of empathy, but what it's basically saying is that the downturn so far has disproportionately impacted some of the country's wealthiest people. And we're not talking about the Elon Musks and the Mark Zuckerbergs, although we will be in a minute. We're talking about people whose salary is about £90,000 and over, putting them in the top 25%. Of wage earners. So lots of different reasons according to the Wall Street Journal. The recent layoffs in the tech sector have been typically higher earners. There have been increases in the bottom 25% of wages, slowdown on spending of luxury brands, the list goes on really. So yeah, the insider concluded that for some, the richcession will be a cause for celebration, a potential leveller in a country where inequity outpaces other rich nations and wealth is disproportionately concentrated For others, it's merely a reminder that the economy is slowing down, but not necessarily in the way that we've come to expect.
Al ElliottYeah, it's funny, isn't it? Recession seems to affect different wage earners in different ways. It's traditionally squeezed sort of like the middle class, so maybe I'm guessing sort of $70,000 to $150,000 a year. And they seem to be squeezed quite a lot because I'd imagine if you're less than $70,000, less than $50,000, then things are probably a little bit tight anyway, whether there's a recession or not.
Leanne ElliottYes, no, I agree.
Al ElliottWhat else we got, Leah?
Leanne ElliottUm, well, I mentioned Elon, uh, Elon and Mark there. It's been a bit of a, bit of a week in the world of social media, hasn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, this is the week where Threads were launched by Meta. That's the, the parent company of Facebook.
Karen SanctoIt is.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, if you've been on your Hollybobs or you've got no internet or you're taking a media break, um, or you just prefer to communicate with people in real life, then you may have That Meta has launched its brand new social media platform called Threads. Um, it looks a little bit like Twitter, Al, doesn't it?
Al ElliottSuspiciously like Twitter.
Leanne ElliottBut it's going well for Mark. They have gained 100 million users, making it the fastest ever growing app. And apparently, according to Mark Zuckerberg, they have yet to launch any of their paid-for ads. That is all organic, which is kind of nuts. Um, so yeah, it does kind of look a bit like Twitter, and there has been some controversy, uh, between Musk and, uh, Zuckerberg ongoing. I guess it started just before, didn't it? But basically, Mark started it by— did you see the picture that he put up on Twitter? It's his first, first time he tweeted for 10 years, and he did that Spider-Man pointing at a Spider-Man meme.
Al ElliottYes, I did see that.
Leanne ElliottCheeky. Um, so yeah, of course then it wasn't long before Elon Musk himself joined Threads just so he could start trolling everybody as he does on Twitter. And one of the first things that he commented on was a story, a reported story that Twitter is suing Meta for hiring former Twitter employees to make Threads. So Elon himself reposted, uh, to a post about the threat to sue saying, competition is fine, cheating is not. Which is quite funny actually considering that there were claims from a Meta engineer that Threads appeared to be censored on Twitter's trending feature.
?Hmm.
Leanne ElliottBut, you know, I'm sure that's totally different, right, Elon? So yeah, entrepreneur drama aside, why should we care? People and culture leaders. Well, we all remember the horrendous way that Twitter laid off thousands of people just before Christmas. If for whatever reason you're not up to date with that or didn't hear about it, go back a few, a few tens of episodes and you'll find a 2-part series on that. So yeah, no notice, locked out of systems, days without hearing anything. Musk trolling people on Twitter. for underperformance. It was, it was, yeah, unsurprisingly a type of leadership behaviour that didn't really instil much loyalty.
Al ElliottIt's what, it's what you professionals call a shit show, I think, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt was, it was. Well done, nice terminology there, Al. Yeah, it's a shit show. Um, so yeah, obviously it damaged relationships and recognition, and they're 2 foundations of people and culture that we talk a lot about along with our clients through our RX7. model, and, you know, if people don't feel that they're being treated fairly or that they're being supported in a positive way, even if that is through a redundancy process, then yeah, any sense of belonging to an organisation is going to be completely lost. That motivation is going to go, and in some cases, people may seek retaliation.
Al ElliottSo I think there's a good way, there's a right way, and there's a wrong way, obviously.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and that does lead me on to my third item in my news roundup, a new segment I thought that might be quite fun, Ask an Expert. So yeah, you may be wondering how the best way to manage redundancies is without losing, you know, those trade secrets to competitors. One of our guests today is Arthi. She is Head of Wellbeing and Inclusion at Ocado Group. Now, the same day I interviewed Arthi was also the day that Ocado announced some significant layoffs. 2,300 people, uh, jobs were at risk, and subsequently the majority of them have been made redundant. So many tech companies have gone before Ocado in announcing these redundancies and going through the process of reducing their workforce. So having the head of wellbeing and inclusion in front of me on the day this happened, I had to ask, how could an organisation manage redundancy positively, and how is Ocado handling it? Here's Arthi.
ArtiRedundancies are a business decision, they're not personal decisions, and they happen in all organisations, right? And we've seen with things like the pandemic, cost of living crisis, all that, the only thing that we can rely on is change, right? Uncertainty and change are the only constant in our lives. And so from a wellbeing perspective, our key has really been around, we understand that these things are going to happen and, you know, we hold true to how and why they're being made, the decisions that are being made, because they make sense for our business. But from a wellbeing perspective, we absolutely support you. And that's why we spent so long over the last year or so putting all those right support mechanisms in place, because we want to ensure that people have access to what they need when they need it. And that's not just for the people that have been, that are left behind, that are still in the organization, but that's equally the support that we give to those that are being made redundant, right? It's not a bye, you're out and you're gone that day. It's a, we're going to support you in the process that you're on. And all of these mechanisms are there to do that. And I, it's hard, right? Because you just want to, like the core of it, you just need to separate the personal from business and understand that it's as much as it feels like it's being done to you, It's being done by the organisation to many of you.
Leanne ElliottThank you, Arthi. We will be hearing much more from her very soon.
Al ElliottYes, we will. Now we're going to dive into the 6 corporate lessons that you can use to attract, engage, and empower your people in your organisation. First guest is Steve Eiley. Now, Steve is the Chief Medical Officer at— and oh, sorry, Chief Medical Officer and Global Head of Occupational Health and Safety at Jaguar Land Rover. Just in case you don't know who Jaguar Land Rover is, they're 2 iconic car brands, Jaguar and Land Rover, all part of the same company now. And one thing I did enjoy learning about was that he's a skateboarder. He's got 5 skateboards. So let's go and meet Steve.
Stephen EileyMy name is Stephen Eiley. I'm Chief Medical Officer at Jaguar Land Rover. I am in charge of health and wellbeing and safety for Jaguar Land Rover all around the world. I am by training an occupational physician. So that means I work in occupational health. Most people don't really know what that is. It's a term that's used a lot. So we look after people who are at work. It's the working age population, looking after them, usually in big companies. Most big companies have occupational health. Lots of small companies don't, but probably should. And it's one of the things I think as a specialty we'd like to do more for. Uh, what am I famous for? I don't know, it probably depends who you ask. At work, I'm probably famous for helping the company survive COVID. Outside of work, um, well, skateboarding. I own 5 skateboards. You're never too old to skateboard.
Leanne ElliottOur second guest is Dr. Kate Goodger. Kate is a chartered psychologist and head of human innovation and performance at Laing O'Rourke, the largest privately owned construction company in the UK.
KateI am a psychologist by trade. So originally, I worked in Olympic sport for the last 20 years with Team GB athletes, and then I've been pulled across to work in corporate. And now I work for Laing O'Rourke, which is a global construction company with the coolest job title, which is the Head of Human Innovation and Performance, which basically lets me be a kid in a sandpit. It's the best way to describe it.
Al ElliottWe're also joined by Karen Sancto. Karen is the Senior Specialist, the EMEA Benefits at Microsoft, and she also chairs the Families Employees Resource Group. On the off chance you haven't heard of Microsoft, it's a reasonably big tech firm created by a guy, or founded by a guy, I want to say William Gates, Bill Gates. I'm not quite sure how he goes these days. Let's go meet Karen.
Karen SanctoSo yeah, Karen Sancto. I work in the International Benefits team at Microsoft. I have been in the company nearly 5 years. Part of the EMEA team, I have been mainly working out of the UK, in the UK, on the UK benefits. So, a bit of a subject matter expert on UK benefits at Microsoft. Have taken a leap and moved into Middle East and Africa. Couldn't be more different than the UK. Multi-country region, such a different culture. Um, different currencies, different languages, um, such different topics but so, so interesting. Um, so really excited to get my teeth into that and bring the maturity levels of that region in terms of benefits and well-being up to what the UK has.
Leanne ElliottWe're also thrilled to welcome Arthi Kashyap-Ainslie. Arthi is an award-winning global business leader and currently the head of Wellbeing and Inclusion at Ocado Group. As we heard, Ocado is a technology-led global software and robotics company. Arthi is also a PwC-trained chartered accountant.
ArtiSo yeah, I currently work at Ocado and I'm the Global Head of Wellbeing and Inclusion. Um, I guess my path to here wasn't as linear as people would expect it to be. So I've been with Ocado Group for 2 years now. I joined originally as their Global Head of Wellbeing. Um, I think What I want to be famous for, be known for, is having an authentic voice around all things related to wellbeing, inclusion, workplace culture, owning who you are, and being able to wear your authentic self at all aspects of your life, whether that is in the workplace or outside the workplace.
Al ElliottAnd our final guest is Daniel Chan, who is the global workplace and wellbeing lead at Dentsu. Now, Dentsu is one of the largest advertising marketing companies in the world.
Leanne ElliottAnd also as well, just a very quick apology to Daniel and our listeners. While we did record Daniel's video, we had what I believe Al calls a catastrophic loss of data, and we no longer have that recording. Or I forgot to press record in the first place, but we can't be sure. I'm really sorry, Daniel.
Al ElliottNo fingers being pointed. Let's go meet Daniel.
?I started off my training as a nurse, um, working both the NHS but then also working in the private sector. Um, and I always say this, I— the reason why I went into nursing was because I wanted to help people and make a difference. That was my core goal about being a nurse. I then took actually a step into working for an investment bank, and they had a health center on site. I acted more as a health consultant to the business, advising them on how health matters could affect on a business level. So, and back then I looked and was doing a lot of wellbeing kind of programs and, you know, health talks, etc. And that's how it got me into the field. Um, around using health promotion at the start. Um, it's kind of fed into where I am today.
Al ElliottSo just to remind you, we've got 6 corporate lessons from these companies who have a combined 350,000 employees around the world, and our aim is to bring you lessons on recruiting, engaging, and managing your employees from these huge companies.
Leanne ElliottYeah, there are so many trends around people and culture, and it can feel like they're changing quite frequently. So what we've tried to do is pick out the lessons that seem like they're here to stay or have been already pretty established in the world of people and culture. And the first one is, without wellbeing, you can't perform. All of our experts agreed that investing in the wellbeing of your people is no longer nice to have. It is fundamental to the success of your business. Without wellbeing, quite simply, you can't perform. To explain more, we'll hear first from Dr. Kate Goodyear from Langa Rock.
KateIt's essentially within the construction industry, what we're trying to do is look at innovations that create breakthroughs for people. So it's not about technology, it's not about those kind of gadgets. We might use wearable technologies, but how can the people experience change on a day-to-day basis? So from a wellbeing perspective, construction is something that damages people's health. Generally, wellbeing isn't talked about as a front-facing component of it. So we're starting to change the thinking there around how important wellbeing is to performance for from the Olympic environment, without wellbeing, you won't perform optimally. It's just fact.
Al ElliottAnd what's really interesting about this is that despite working for a huge multinational corporation, some of the stuff she's talking about is quite familiar to SMEs.
KateIt can be because the margins in construction are so narrow. So the killer things are always programme and cost. And as a consequence, people are working ridiculously long hours. And also some of the technology that we are seeing advancing elsewhere, it hasn't yet transferred transferred to construction. So it's harder for that. And then very simply, culturally, there is a macho culture still. So it's difficult to talk about wellbeing. Mental health is just shocking in construction. On average, 2 people commit suicide each day in our country that work in construction. But it's beginning to move and people are starting to recognize that blokes need to talk about stuff too. Um, but also alongside it's the challenge of diversity, not so many women. So we're trying to readdress those balances. So lots of puzzles to solve.
Al ElliottNow, what's interesting is Kate talks quite candidly about the fact that it's 70% male in her organisation and that there are mental health struggles amongst males. If you remember back to an episode we did earlier this year with Jim Young, it was called The Heartbreak of Male Leaders. We examined what the differences were between women and men and how they experience mental health. Definitely well worth going back and having a listen. Daniel, Head of Workplace and Wellbeing at Dentsu, recommends that wellbeing starts with leaders having open discussions and committing to action.
?I think it's just starting at having open discussion, creating those spaces where people can openly share and be vulnerable. And that starts with leadership as well. It's about coming up from leaders being open about kind of their struggles. Perhaps their mental health, perhaps their wellbeing, and knowing that it's okay not to be okay, I think. So again, kind of starting that conversation around just being open in general, that really helps because I think having the honesty approach but also that transparency, and that comes with time. It's not going to happen overnight. So some of the things we do, especially kind of around our, perhaps our learning around our webinars, is, as we open the discussion, as we open kind of the webinar, it's about telling people it's a real safe space for you to openly share kind of your views. And, you know, we can use a chat function, or you can use your mic if you want, just to really voice your concerns, because we really, really do listen. But then it's also actioning upon those as well. So, like, via our annual surveys, where we kind of ask questions around psychological safety, making sure that we action upon them so people know we are kind of really invested and committed to it.
Leanne ElliottDaniel went on to explain that wellbeing runs through every aspect of the employee experience. It's not just about the physical side of things. Everything you do as a leader, every choice that you make in how you run your business, can and will have an impact on employee wellbeing.
?If we look at where we were perhaps maybe 5 years ago, it was a very nice thing to have, wasn't it, wellbeing? What I think companies have to now think about in terms of it's not a nice thing to have, it's a need to have to support all their people to thrive, to make connections. And we look at wellbeing, it's not— it flows right the way through the employee experience or right the way through employee lifecycle. From, I always say, from the moment you look at your job application about wellbeing to the day you leave. So I think as a whole, wellbeing, you know, it spreads throughout every day. Everyday working life. It's not just about one thing, which I think, you know, previously we focused on something like, you know, the physical aspects or the medical aspect, where we know kind of if you're not in the right career, you're not getting the right development, the right training, that will affect your wellbeing. And I think as we, as we get more evolved with wellbeing, more understanding around it, this is why companies now having to invest in it to realize that all the elements of your work life do affect your wellbeing. That's why we need to take a big focus on it.
Al ElliottWhat's interesting is that Jaguar Land Rover, as part of their investment into wellbeing, have opened these centres of wellbeing. Here's Steve Vile to explain how they all work.
Stephen EileySo our centres for wellbeing is something that we're doing in Jaguar Land Rover that we believe is a little bit different. It's suitable and specific for what our needs are. And one of the themes of my talk was very much that wellbeing, occupational health, support for colleagues. It needs to be specific for the organization. The Centers for Wellbeing are physical locations, so they're located within our premises, so in our factories or in our engineering sites or in our bases. They are open to colleagues, offering a variety of programs covering the whole spectrum of needs. So we aim to target and deliver support to colleagues if they're unwell, and that's a very traditional approach, people would be familiar with going off sick and then getting some form of support in most places, not all. But looking after colleagues when they're still at work is something that most companies don't do very well. We thought that was best delivered through these centers for wellbeing. So we offer a variety of programs using a variety of clinicians physically located on site. And we've built the centers in such a way that they reflect reflect our brand and values. So our brand is very much around modern luxury. The centres are designed to look good because we want people to feel the brand and feel like they're part of Jaguar Land Rover. And some of our factories are factories. So you have to work quite hard to make sure that they have that look and feel because they're busy building cars.
Al ElliottNow, one of the biggest problems with any kind of wellbeing sort of intervention or idea is that you are going to need buy-in from The board, and most particularly the CFO, you're gonna need some money for this. Now, Daniel from Dentsu points out that the commercial aspects of this is lower attrition rate and a better employer brand. Gen Z want to work for employers who prioritize wellbeing.
?I think it's down to your people, really. And I always say your people are like the lifeline of your, of your company. Wherever you work, if you have happy people, They'll be productive, they're likely to stay with you, you'll have less attrition, etc. So I think really investing in your people's well-being at work is twofold, really, because it's not going to help support you commercially, but also kind of with your brand, your proposition as well as an employer to be, an employer to join, etc. So, you know, we're seeing kind of our younger generations, our Gen Z, really asking around What is your wellbeing strategy? What's your D&I strategy? What's your corporate social responsibility strategy? Because they will want to go to companies that they resonate with, but also in line with their own values. And we're definitely seeing that with our younger generation. So it's not only investment now, but for the investment from the generations of our future who are really going to be shaping that workplace, which is exciting, whatever that looks like.
Al ElliottAnd one of our guests is perfectly positioned to answer this question, Arthi from Ocado, because she used to be a chartered accountant. So we asked her, what would convince you to invest in wellbeing?
ArtiIn wellbeing especially, we always talk about ROI and showing the ROI, and it's a hard one, right? Because there's no clear metrics on what you can show. And as an accountant, you're, I'm always looking for like, what's the KPI that you can give me that I can actually show I'm doing, going up and down and it's getting better or worse or whatever the situation is. I think for me, when you're building a business case, it's what's— it's a lot about the external case and the external market. It's one about knowing and understanding your executive. How do they read and what are the things that are going to make them tick? So in our organization, for example, we are very data hungry and people really want to understand, like, well-being isn't a topic that they— it's not that they don't interact with it, but it's almost like they look at it with a different lens. So it's being able to translate what I'm telling the internal story into the lens that they're looking at it from. So, for us, it's about how do I put absenteeism, for example, into a form of lost productivity so they can see what the bottom-line impact is to the workforce and what's happening. And then, externally, it's what are other organizations that are like ours doing, and competitors, and what are some of the things in the external landscape that are driving things? And it's being able to look at it from both lenses, right? Like, today, I was in the neurodiversity panel session that they had, and The woman said the best thing when she built their business case. She was like, we are a commercially focused business. Organizations are commercially focused. They are there to drive a profit. And so, it's being able to balance that. It's not just about the human factors and doing it from a responsible business perspective, but actually showcasing that by doing something, we're gonna have an end benefit that's gonna benefit the company at the end in terms of its profitability, its success, and what it's trying to do. And I think it's that balance between those two.
Leanne ElliottSo, Karen is our benefits expert from Microsoft, and she made the point that it's not often about doing more, but doing better. So rather than adding more and more benefits to your list, put the work in to maximise engagement in the benefits you already have.
Karen SanctoI think mainly what I've learned from the UK, um, I would say in terms of communication and engagement, that is one of the mature regions, um, We're a global company at Microsoft. We have a mix of global benefits which we roll out internationally, and then we've got services that we manage locally. So in the UK, we do have a generous suite of benefits and services, high engagement levels in comparison to what we had before. Pre-COVID, I've mentioned that word now, and pre-lockdown, Engagement was okay. We had wellbeing programmes, wellbeing activities. Our use of EAP was pretty sort of at that market level. And during lockdown, we intentionally focused on employee engagement and reaching those people intentionally. whilst working remotely. So, we developed a programme called Thrive, which was an engagement platform based on 4 pillars of wellbeing, community, inspiration, and career. So, I very much focused in my work on the community and the wellbeing pillars.
Leanne ElliottSo, during this time, Karen also founded the Families Employee Resources Group to provide information and serve as a voice of support for diverse families across Microsoft. In taking her approach to engagement, she was able to identify and fill a gap in provision. Let's hear more from Karen.
Karen SanctoI think the nature of that engagement and capturing employees, making them own their own wellbeing, the success was in the brand. It was an identifiable brand. We had exec sponsorship as well. Also, thanks to a brilliant comms team, We, we put those activities in people's diaries. So we invited all of the UK. So that's nearly 6,000 employees. It was in their calendar. They could choose to decline, they could choose to ignore it, but it was our way of empowering them and telling them it's okay to take this time out to listen to this event, to take part in this activity. And it showed how important wellbeing was on our business agenda as well. well.
Al ElliottIt's a great start to take inspiration from other businesses, but as Steve from Jaguar Land Rover points out, there's no real silver bullet.
Stephen EileyMy cautious word to anyone listening is it needs to be specific to your organisation, your place of work, your ethos, your culture. We have reflected the Jaguar Land Rover culture, so the look, the feel, the lettering, the word— even the wording is very much around Jaguar Land Rover so that our colleagues are immersed in it and feel it, touch it, live it. Other company cultures are different, and we will see that not only in the colors, but the materials, the wording, the shape. It's everything, and it all goes together. And one of the challenges is bringing that all together. And that's where I have to take my hat off to our design colleagues, Because they do do things that you would just not think of.
Al ElliottSteve also explained that, all right, it's great when you get the approval to do the work, but you also need to continue to prove that it's actually working so you can obviously ensure there's an ROI on the investment. In short, we need to evaluate the work that we're doing.
Stephen EileyThe evidence for wellbeing is hugely mixed and missing. We don't really have a good evidence base for a lot of things that we do at work to look after people. It's done on gut instinct. It's done on— it feels like the right thing to do. And some things might feel nice, but you question the validity of whether it's making a difference or not. To build the evidence base and to really prove that what you're doing makes a difference takes time and effort and needs to be built into the program. You have to collect the data all the way through. And that takes time and really does take effort. It's hard work. But if you manage to create a dataset by the end of the program, you can talk to any of your stakeholders. And that may be the trade unions, it may be colleagues, it may be the board, it may be the chief financial officer, or indeed the chief executive officer, and say, this is what we've done. This is the proof of what we've done. And that allows you, assuming you've done a good job, to then get more money or more investment to do more. But it is difficult. And unfortunately, a lot of things that are done within the wellbeing space have no evidence behind them at all.
Leanne ElliottThis leads us nicely on to our second lesson, don't skip the science. If you are a regular listener, you would've heard Al and I talk before about having ping pong tables in the break room, having pizza Fridays does not a good culture make. And yes, these are lessons taken from big corporates. Like Google and Amazon who have these huge complexes. But the reason that they have these huge facilities is because they have connected the science with the solution. They know that having these fancy breakout areas is really good for encouraging people to take breaks, to support collaboration, to help people build relationships. But there also needs to be some intention behind that. We need to connect the what with the why. And businesses that fail to connect the what and the why are skipping the science. So Daniel admitted there are a lot of buzzwords out there, and it's important to take the time to understand the trend and the science behind it. He uses the example of psychological safety.
?I think it's really, really important, but I think it's also a bit of a buzzword that's being used at the moment. But it's all about, I guess, making sure that when you come to work, you feel comfortable, um, being able to openly express views, your concerns, without having any risk of those having consequences as well. But it also brings that inclusivity, and that helps bring culture, because if you can come in with new ideas, fresh approaches, that allows innovation. And again, that builds that culture and that diverse aspect. I think one thing around psychological safety is we all think it's something— we should be nice to each other and all friendly. But that isn't— that's not always the case with psychological safety. You've got to come to prepare to be challenged. You've got to be kind of prepared perhaps to have your views perhaps not agreed with, and perhaps you've got to have some difficult conversations. And I think we need to remember that all helps build not only you as a person as you understand that self-awareness piece, but also helps that and foster that kind of openness and having that open conversation discussion.
Leanne ElliottSo, by not skipping the science, also means that you're much more likely to engage an expert when you need it. Experts or consultants can not only help you identify a clear path forward, but help you identify the risks along the way. Steve used the example of the pandemic and how he helped to prepare Jaguar Land Rover for this type of disruption.
Stephen EileyI, like most of my colleagues, and I think most in the medical professional, always thought there would be some form of pandemic. It was always on most of our sort of agendas somewhere. I don't think any of us could have predicted how it played out. And I can remember sitting in a boardroom trying to tell the board of Jaguar Land Rover, there's something in China. We have operations in China, we have a factory in China. So we were lucky in some ways to see it very early and start to deal with it. And I can remember telling them, this is getting really bad. And they didn't really believe me, I think, at the time. And it was only when flights were cancelled that they suddenly realised this was going to have a much bigger impact. But even then, we didn't understand the global nature of it. Uh, yeah, we didn't know what we were going to do or how we were going to do it as it started to play out.
Leanne ElliottDouble-loop learning is also ingrained in experts' way of working. We take the time to reflect, to evaluate, to take lessons forward into the future so things will be better.
Stephen EileyIn the UK, where we have a lot of our operations, We actually ran out of parts before the official shutdown date, and that's one of the learning lessons very much from the pandemic is although we were very well supported, we had health and safety professionals, we obviously have a lot of a lot of people in my team. We realized that our supply chain, some of whom are very small companies, had very little access to support, and they fell over before we did. And we ran out of parts because they couldn't produce. So we'd like to do more with them, and that's one of the things in the future that's come out of the COVID pandemic.
Al ElliottOne of the recurring themes of this podcast is that although you can do some things yourself, at some point you're probably going to want to bring in an expert. So Steve, although he's an expert in his own field, he knew there was a limit when it came to building these centres for wellbeing.
Stephen EileyWe, as in the health professionals, decided very early on that we were not the best people to do this. We're good at clinical stuff. We're not good at design. That's not our job. We're not good at events. So we reached out, and I think one of our learning lessons is making sure that you stay within your sphere of expertise and pull in colleagues who are very good at what they do. So we worked with our design colleagues, and we worked with our events colleagues to say, this is our space. this is the purpose. We would like to be able to put in a physiologist. We would like to put in a physiotherapist. We want a counselor. We want privacy. But we also want it to look and feel nice. Now, please help us. And they actually took the brief and then gave us back a design principle. And it's stuff that, as a clinician, we certainly don't think about. And I think unless you're in design, you may not think about. So using the same type of finish Having fixtures and fittings that look and feel and match each other and are placed in a certain way. It does matter where you place your couch. It does matter where you place your carpet. It does matter where you have the picture on the wall. The picture must reflect the brand. So the pictures are very specifically chosen. All of that goes together to create an aesthetic, if I can use that word, that means it looks like— head office. And that, I think, is the, the bit that makes it tangible for the colleagues. So a lot of colleagues would say, and we see this in all companies, oh, head office looks very nice, but actually out in pick location— and this is not just Jaguar Land Rover, I think many companies have this discrepancy between what head office looks like or feels like and what other locations look and feel like. So we were, we, we were rebuilding the look and feel of head office in each of these centres.
Leanne ElliottSo, we can't skip the science, and the science of people is psychology. So, when it comes to that, as humans, there are 3 innate needs that, if met, help us perform optimally, as Kate explains.
KateI look at people from a human functioning perspective. So, how are you designed? How are you wired? And there are 3 innate needs that, if you have them, then it gives a chance of people performing optimally, and if you don't have them, then good luck. So the first is meaningfulness, that things feel like they're significant to an individual. It matters. I matter. Second is belonging, that we feel that we're connected to people, that I'm valued, I'm heard, I'm listened to, I'm seen. And finally, purpose, which is our sense of why. What is this in service of something greater than ourselves? And from a biological basis, they are an imperative. They are fundamental. But equally, from a performance perspective, That's when you can unleash performance, is when you've got those 3 elements. If you counter that to environments where you don't have those things, or those things are challenged, then again, good luck performing well in those environments. You're more in a survival mode, and you will be suboptimal. Purpose is a feeling.
ArtiRight.
KateIt's not a statement. That's how you might describe it, but it is a feeling. You feel it in your heart, you feel it in your gut, you're energized by it. And again, businesses that are doing well in this space are realizing it's a fueler for performance, and equally it will kill performance if it's— if it feels inauthentic.
Al ElliottSo, that's lesson 2. On to lesson 3. What we got, Leah?
Leanne ElliottSo, lesson 3 is, leaders, find your purpose. For our people to feel authentic purpose, we need to know our own purpose, and this is exactly what our 3rd lesson is. Kate brings this to life, explaining her purpose and how she helps others find theirs.
KateMy purpose is contribution. And what I mean by that is I wanna put more into the world than I take out. And I think how I do that is through one skill really, which is about listening and it's helping people to feel heard. 'Cause arguably that's one of our biggest challenges. People don't feel that they don't have time, they're not paid attention to, they don't know how to communicate it, they don't know how to say stuff. And my work is to try and give them skills so they listen to themselves better. But in turn, that has a positive effect in, in their relationships with others.
Al ElliottKate's got a really interesting background in this. She was involved in the Olympics. So I wanted to learn a bit more about how this all worked and how this shaped what her purpose was.
KateAs a kid, I watched Dave Thompson, and so I wanted to go to the Olympics, and it was gonna be amazing. And then I realized as an athlete, I wasn't that good, so that wasn't gonna work. And then I went to my first Olympics as a psychologist in 2004, and I didn't know what I was doing. Get to 2008, and it was worse because the athletes I worked with Meddled. And when people said, what did you do? I was like, I don't know, just chucked a load of stuff at them. And I then had a mentor, and my mentor was Professor Steve Peters, who wrote The Chimp Paradox. And Steve just enabled me to see how human beings are made up and how we function, and therefore what is essential to have around them and the environment that you create for yourself or that you choose to live and work in.
Leanne ElliottArthy also has a really interesting origin story. story. She progressed from a Big Four trained accountant to the head of inclusion and wellbeing at Ocado Group.
ArtiI guess my path to here wasn't as linear as people would expect it to be. So I've been with Ocado Group for 2 years now. I joined originally as their global head of wellbeing. Um, and before then, I'm actually a management consultant by trade. So I've spent 16 to 17 years of my career in professional services. First 5 years are with PwC in their audit, tax, and advisory practice. So I'm a Chartered accountant. Um, and then I moved into finance consulting with Deloitte, and I was with them for over 11 years, worked all around the world, settled into the UK about 4 or 5 years into working with them. And then as I was getting more and more senior, starting to look at my career and what I wanted, I realized that finance transformation wasn't really the thing that was getting me out of bed every morning. But I always had this passion for wellbeing. And, you know, I happened to be in the right time at the right place. Deloitte in the UK was starting to look at wellbeing initiatives and piloting a few things. I got involved with the tail end of the pilot. The pilot was so successful that they needed to put investment behind it, and I stepped in to lead. So I was leading that for a few years, and then just before the pandemic, I went on maternity leave and then actually went straight to Ocado after.
Al ElliottWhen I asked Steve about his purpose, I'll be honest, he really surprised me with his answer.
Stephen EileyI, I got into occupational medicine like a lot of colleagues by accident. It's a specialty that is very niche, but in no other specialty that I know of do you get to go and visit the bottom of a mine, the top of an oil rig, fly in a helicopter, fly in a fast jet, see and live all of the different businesses that there are in the world. The opportunities are amazing. I've worked all around the world, and it all started with the death of somebody in the middle of the desert from a snakebite who died, who shouldn't have died. And we went out to investigate, and that investigation of how to protect people at work was actually occupational medicine. I just didn't know it at the time, and that sparked my interest. And the rest is, as they say, history.
Leanne ElliottSo great leaders not only live by their purpose, but they help communicate it to inspire others. There can be a confusion between purpose-led businesses and for-purpose businesses. The latter typically is associated with some form of NFP or NGO, or even an organisation with a charitable or social impact. But as Kate explains, even the most transactional of businesses Let me answer that in a couple of different ways.
KateThe first would be certainly from an engineer perspective. I think what has really grown on me since I've worked in construction is the impact engineers have on society. Very simply, they give us choice. So we're at London Excel now. How do we get here? The Elizabeth Line. We built that. And what it gives people is the opportunity to travel, to be educated, to be supported in a hospital, and all of those components. So engineers have helped to engineer a society in which we live and we have choice. So that speaks to purpose. You know, Thames Tideway, there's a project there at the moment which is to make the Thames clean. Imagine that. You know, is that possible? During our work in COVID, we completed a couple of hospitals early because these hospitals were going to run out of beds. And by accelerating our programmes, we were able to provide those much-needed beds. So there's a sense of purpose in some of the structures that we build. But equally for our workforce, they feel an awful lot of pride in what they do because it's tangible. There's a legacy. They can see it. They talk about packing the kids in the car at the weekend and driving them through London. We built that one, built that one. That's one of ours. And there's a real sense of giving something to communities and the world around us. So there's lots of different ways that people find purpose. And in construction, I found it to be surprisingly purposeful because it's people pulling together. To deliver something often for other individuals. It's less about the self in this.
Al ElliottSo we've talked before, and in fact, some of our guests have said the same thing. This generational difference in marketing is that millennials and particularly Gen Zs are looking to buy from brands who have got an obvious purpose and they market that purpose well. It makes sense though that, that Gen Zs want to work for a company who also have a similar purpose. But there's no point in having a purpose unless you communicate it properly. This is where internal communication teams are essential. Here's Aarthi from Mercado.
ArtiWe have an employee experience comms specialist that works in our team, and we work hand in hand, and she helps us with everything because it's all about that consistent crafting and messaging. It's everything from your external platforms to your internal platforms, your message. I mean, anything that's inconsistent or different just confuses employees. And I think we're, in our real lives, we're like bombarded with so much stuff all the time. Just think about the number of notifications that have probably gone off on your phone in the last 20 minutes. So, it's all about like, how do I just make information easier for, to disseminate and for people to digest?
Leanne ElliottSo, that is our 4th lesson, leaders, find your purpose.
Al ElliottLesson number 5 is to redefine success. So, the chances are that some of you listening might be the next Musk or Zuckerberg or Bezos. But the fact is that unless you're number one, there's always gonna be someone better than you and always someone you're gonna be looking up to. And that is the problem. There is this heartbreaking story about, I think he was a Finnish entrepreneur who was the richest man in Finland and then dropped to number 4 and stepped in front of a train because he just couldn't cope with the idea that he wasn't number one. So we have to be really careful about defining success. For example, So most employees, they want a pay rise, they want a promotion, but do they really want the actual money, or do they want the job title or the corner office, or is it about more than that?
KateThe athletes that I was working with, you could just see these penny-drop moments that, yes, it was about success, but it was about the definition of success, the meaning associated with a medal. It was never about, I'm going to be an Olympic champion, that's it. It's, I'm an Olympic champion, which means I'm a role model for my sport and I'm an ambassador. For, you know, how athletes should be. There was a whole range of purposes there. And I think it was at that moment of working with Steve and seeing that human beings are often standing in our own way.
ArtiI mean, I still remember going into the office on my first day of my new job when I was at Deloitte doing wellbeing and having this, like, absolute freakout moment of, like, oh my God, when am I getting be promoted next? Like, what does this look like? And I was working with an external coach at the time, and she was like, you don't need to know where you're going next. It's okay to just be present where you are and figure it out as you go. And that sense of being clear on what your path is, and that's kind of how it is in professional services, right? Like, you, you have a sense of logic in terms of how things work out. You look at things in a different way. And being clear on like what your next steps are, you know, I— you almost lose sense of that. And that has been probably the hardest thing, but also the most freeing thing to embrace because it's almost a sense of I don't need to know what my next step is or someone doesn't need to calculate that next step for me. I can just kind of let the opportunities come to me and, and follow where that takes me. I'm a really big fan. One of my favorite books is Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. And if you haven't read it before, any of the listeners listening in, um, it's all about this idea of following your curiosity and being okay with, I'm at point A, I know I want to get to point B, but I don't know, like, that path is going to be up and down the whole way through. And it's getting okay with that. And I think as a consultant, you were just like, no, it's like a straight line in this direction. And it's been really nice to go up and down. And I think also, I mean, I transitioned to a mom in that whole period. So I think my life also changed because the way I looked at it and how I interacted with work also changed as a result because my life outside of work changed. So it's been quite invigorating, but equally, I would, I would be lying to say that it's been easy because it hasn't. And I think also I'm not working in the same environment that I was once working in, so that expectation of whatever the standard everyone has to adhere to in a professional services company isn't necessarily the same in other organizations, and getting used to that pace and what people— how they operate is a whole new thing.
Leanne ElliottI think what's really interesting about this is the emphasis seems to be on, on kind of onwards and upwards rather than onwards and sideways. And some business leaders do get exasperated with young people when it comes to their expectations around career progression and wonder, you know, why aren't they as satisfied taking a sideways step or working on new projects or some kind of skill development? Well, my question is, what type of example as a leader are you setting for them? If as a business leader you're setting a very linear path for the business, its performance, and its growth, then does that help shape the expectations of our people?
Al ElliottI think one of the things you have to do if you're in business or you're a leader or whatever, is accept that there are gonna be some bad days. So, Arthi talks a little bit more about how she copes with the lows.
ArtiI mean, nothing is permanent. So, this moment that you're in isn't gonna last. And I can think of a million moments that I've had like that where you just think, how am I gonna get out of it? But actually, sometimes being at the bottom is like the best place to start. And actually, the most beautiful things tend to come out of that. I think it's just you have to give yourself the space to feel what you need to feel and then allow yourself to dust yourself off and be like, right, just gonna get back up and go at it. You know what, I just— somebody told me one— I feel like I'm not going to say it right because it's in my head, but I know it's not going to come out that way. But it is that sense of like, it's sometimes everything has to fall apart before it can fall together.
KateMm-hmm.
ArtiAnd it's that sense of like, you know, I can think of even the brink of moving to the UK and moving to Deloitte UK and kind of moving with them and sorting my life out. I just thought, like, I was just talking to someone in my team actually, that like a year before that I just turned 30 and I thought I had my whole life mapped out. And in the 10 months that ensued after that, my, my life dramatically changed and everything that I thought became a one-way ticket to the UK being like, I'm just gonna figure it out and see where it goes. And You know, I'm— I guess I have to say my age, but now I'm like, I just turned 41. And, you know, when I turned 40 last year, I remember looking back thinking, oh my God, like, what? Like, how many things changed? And in that moment, in those low moments soon after I turned 30, when I was going through like some really hard personal stuff, I just never imagined that my life could become what it became. And I think sometimes it's—
Leanne Elliottyou got to just Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.
Al Elliottgonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
?Seamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Karen SanctoIt is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Oh yeah.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Mike Tyson's got this great quote, everyone has a plan until they're punched in the mouth. And like Arthy did back in her 20s, she set out this life plan. And I think we've all probably done it. We've written down exactly what we're going to do by the time we're 30, 40, 50, 60, etc. Et cetera. The problem is we get punched in the mouth quite a lot. So instead of having this sort of cast iron plan, then what we have to accept that they— we've got a destination and there's probably gonna be some kind of circuitous route to get to that destination. But as long as we're kind of in the right direction, then these setbacks, we can— they're exactly what they are, setbacks. They're not just obstacles that can't be surmounted. Lesson number 6, stop being the hero, be the guide. You might have heard of this if you know anything about StoryBrand, um, or Donald Miller or JJ Peterson, one of our previous guests from about 5, 6 episodes ago. Definitely go back and listen to him. You know that the whole point of storytelling, the whole point of leadership is that you are not the hero of the story. You are the guide. Don't think that you're gonna have to be the guide for everything. You might need an expert at some point. Every business is slightly different. There is no silver bullet. If it was easy, everyone will be doing it. So Daniel from Denso points out there's no point in mandating what you've got to do based on what other people are doing.
?You're dealing with people's emotions, thoughts, and people really. They're all human beings, and what one person likes, the other person doesn't. My health and wellbeing needs are very different to yours, Leanne, aren't they? And I think that's difficult when you look at mandating things because it makes— it's not a one-size-fits-all. I guess from an organisational level, I guess kind of it's a must. So kind of we need to think about kind of looking at wellbeing as not a nice thing to have, but it's a must thing to have within a business. So if I can mandate that across every single business, that would be kind of, you know, my gold star, I guess.
Leanne ElliottKaren from Microsoft agrees and makes the point that even within the same organisation, you'll likely have people with different needs.
Karen SanctoMicrosoft is big, and therein lies the challenge because we are meeting a wealth of employees who are based at home, in the office, at customer sites, they're traveling. And I guess it's like looking at Microsoft as a global organization. You can shrink it down into Okay, let's not look at Microsoft globally. Let's look at it per country, or let's look at it per office location, or let's look at it per community. We want to do something for the families community. What do we need to do? Then you get your feedback. You listen to them, what they would like, what they need, and then— What do you do with that feedback? you don't have to do any, any of this at cost. I mean, yes, there are apps out there. Yes, there are services out there. You know, you can get a wellbeing provider in to come and tell you what you need to do to organise sessions, but actually you can empower those employees and get them to do the activities. We've got internal experts who just, well, experts talking about their own wellbeing. Someone who's done a Couch to 5K can come and talk, tell their story, and inspire others to do that, and then therein builds your community of wellbeing champions, people who want to talk and inspire others.
Leanne ElliottAnd we're here again, employee insights. And as Daniel points out, and all of our corporate leaders agree, data is your friend.
?Always look at data, and I think people can be a bit afraid of data as well, but data is your friend if you know how, if you use it correctly. And it can give you some great insights. And like I said, that the strategy I put in place is always data-led, data-driven, and being flexible with that as well. But not just looking at the hard data or numbers. I said using conversations you have with people because that's such a valuable resource as well. Asking touchpoints around kind of what do they want, what do they— because we're talking about our people and they can only tell you what they want. I can put in things in place, but sometimes that's not be right. So it's finding out kind of what they need, kind of what they really kind of understand around wellbeing, kind of what they want more of, what they don't like. And that really kind of shapes, shapes what I do moving forward.
Al ElliottArthi from Ocado unsurprisingly agrees and then also wants to steer the conversation to EDI as well.
ArtiI think people think it's like a one-size-fits-all and it's not. I mean, at the, at the core of what drives inclusive inclusivity is diversity. And if you look at diversity and just basically look at our demographic data and our diversity attributes and what make us up, you know, there's like gender, there's sexual orientation, there's ethnicity, religion, ability. I mean, the list goes on, right? And you take someone like myself, you can't just design something. Oh, you look at me and like, okay, she's a female, great. I can design something that helps her be and feel inclusive from a female perspective. But actually, I'm not, I'm an ethnic minority female who's a foreign living in a different country who's a mom. Like, so there's all these different things that you have to tailor. And so there's not a one thing that you can do, and you have to constantly be thinking about all that, that intersectionality piece. I think too often in inclusion, we look at each subset on its own. Like, neurodiversity is a big topic at the moment, and we just spend time looking at neurodiversity. But are we thinking about neurodiversity and what that means for different ethnicities? Are we thinking about it for different socioeconomic statuses and backgrounds? Like, It's, are we thinking about all these different elements and that intersectionality bit is huge.
Al ElliottSo that's lesson number 6, stop being the hero, be the guide. Leanne, we've covered a fair amount.
Leanne ElliottBut we won't leave you there. Of course, we have 3 action points to help you get started and apply these lessons, these corporate lessons within your organization.
Al ElliottLesson number 1 is listen. Listening might be the most impactful skill that you're gonna learn as a leader. We know because we were Samaritans in the UK, which is a listening service. That's how we are really good at what we do because we know how to listen. Here's Arthi to explain how listening helped her develop her role at Ocado.
ArtiSo I joined 2 years ago. When I first joined, I spent quite a bit of time listening, and I think that's probably a consistent theme. The thing that has probably worked the best is to never stop listening and to listen to understand, not to listen and solutionize right away, but actually just to understand and hear what people are saying and what the actual challenges are so that you're designing things that are relevant and not things that are just going to get lost in the organization and the size of it. And so that's a really big thing. I think the thing that we've focused on the last 15 months has really been putting in base foundations.
Al ElliottLesson number 2 is to experiment. You're really lucky because you're not Microsoft with 200,000 employees. You are X who've got maybe 50, 60, 70 employees. So you could come up with an idea tonight that you could implement next week. But as Arthi from Mercado says, you really need to keep it simple.
ArtiI think there's a big piece around keeping it simple, right? Like, um, one of the questions that we never got to was on what's our biggest piece of advice for small organizations starting out. It's exactly what you're asking. And I think actually sometimes I think smaller organizations have it easier. Large organizations are way more complicated, especially global. You have to think about different regions, cultures, legalities. It's so complicated. But in smaller organizations, you already have like a benefit that it's small. People tend to know each other. It's a lot— there's a lot less red tape. So you can start by doing an engagement survey. You can start by creating employee resource groups, you know, creating communities, opening conversation. Testing things out. I mean, it's such a great playing field to have a small organization to do stuff with, and I think oftentimes people think things— think it costs money to do lots of things, and that's why I think they think big organizations have such a higher, you know, sense of being able to do stuff, but actually, things like starting employee resource groups or administering a survey to your people to find out what they're feeling and what they're struggling with, Those things don't cost any money, and you can put on a lot of events and activities like open conversations, panel conversations with people internally that have lived experiences. Doesn't cost anything. It's just about starting somewhere and not feeling like you have to start somewhere massive. It's, you know, oftentimes it's the little things that make the biggest difference. Like, are you, I don't know, having a coffee morning where people can come and openly talk about different topics?
Leanne ElliottIt's just how are you starting to open up a conversation Daniel agrees and suggests that business leaders should start by finding their pain point, then building out the strategy.
?I think start looking at data. Um, also pinpointing down what it is you want to focus on around wellbeing. Or is it, is it sickness absence? Is it kind of poor mental health? Um, is it your attrition's high and you want to look at that? And I think looking at that piece where you want to start, that can help build out a framework, and that framework will gradually grow over time as well. I think what we're seeing is if you put in too much all at once, that can overwhelm not only you as the person who's putting in that strategy, but also overwhelm your people as well. So I think kind of using your data where you want to improve on first, that's a great, great way to start. And we don't have to look at hard data. Like I said, it's about kind of looking at your employee surveys. What is it your— what are those pain points? What are your people asking for? What are your organizational needs, for example? And looking at that as a starting point. And then building out, building out over time. There are lots of frameworks out there around wellbeing strategies. One thing I always say is, if you are looking at those, make sure you adapt it to fit your organization. Don't just take that carbon copy and put it in because that won't work. Because those are great as a starting point, but look at your organization as a whole. Does it fit in, align with some of those pieces, the key things you want to deliver? Does it fit in with your culture? Does it fit in kind of with your own values and perhaps your mission statement? So don't just take any carbon copies, make sure you kind of adapt it to fit your needs. Because I always say kind of, and I've seen it happen in the past, those don't work. So, as I said, look at kind of your own, your own wants, your own needs, and really adapt it.
Leanne ElliottSo, once you've experimented, the third lesson is to consolidate. It's time to get all of those interventions, those teams, those champions under one strategy, under one umbrella. Consistency and synergy really are the siblings of intention and can help you to both save money and maximize impact. Here's Arthi.
ArtiWe've done a lot over the last 15 to 18 months in terms of making sure that support is consistent globally and available to all of our employees and looks the same and feels the same. And that employee experience is like consistent throughout. And I think that's worked really well because there's now a clear line to take on where people go. And there's no like, oh, actually, if you're in this country, call this number. And if you're in that country, it's like just this is everything and you can go to here for everything. I think that's worked really well. I think the other thing that's worked really well has been how we've started to combine inclusion and wellbeing together. And that's because now we're having, we're having more joint conversations. It means that it's not just joint conversations with inclusion, but breaking down that silo has enabled that silo across multiple areas to break down. So it means that I'm working with so many other centers of expertise across both inclusion and wellbeing. to make sure that we're looking at things holistically. So, I work really closely with our talent and development team, with our reward and benefits, health and safety, corporate responsibility. I mean, we're starting to group everything under sort of the S of ESG. So, there's like a view of breaking down, starting to really break down silos, and we definitely are not perfect, but being on that journey feels like it's the right thing because it just feels so nice. Like, I just finished doing this external wellbeing benchmark that we have to complete is a FTSE 100, and filling it in this year versus last year was just so nice because I could pull on all these different parts of the organization and things that are happening, and I know what's going on, whereas a year ago, it felt very siloed in the response and being very sort of wellbeing-centric. Now, it feels like actually we're doing all these things around the organization that can tell this wider story, and especially in the case of wellbeing, well, and it applies to inclusion, inclusion, they aren't standalone things. They're the employee— they're baked into the employee experience. They're the thing that you feel as an employee when you come and experience when you come into the workplace every day. So, being able to weave that into everything just feels like it's the right thing.
Al ElliottConsistency and synergy are the siblings of intention. Did you just make that up?
Karen SanctoI did.
Leanne ElliottDo you like that?
Al ElliottThat is nice. I'm getting a t-shirt with that on.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. So, thank you to Arthi there for shaping our 3 action points, and to the rest of our incredible guests for shaping those lessons. So lesson 1, without wellbeing, you can't perform. So our second lesson, lesson 2, don't skip the science. Lesson 3 is leaders, find your purpose. Our fourth lesson is redefine success. And lesson 5, stop being the hero, be the guide.
Al ElliottSo we're going to leave all of the links. Well, I say we, it's going to be Lianne who's going to do the show notes. We'll leave all the links to everything we've talked about in the show notes. Jaguar Land Rover have a public resource, which is pretty cool. Here's Steve, a bit more about that.
Stephen EileySo we, we have a website. We actually use that website for our own employees. It's open access, wellbeing.jaguarlandrover.com. Anyone can go and have a look at it, see what we're up to, see what the centres for wellbeing are doing.
Leanne ElliottSo huge thank you to all of our guests today. As always, we will leave the links in the show notes. Al, what we got next week?
Al ElliottWe have got a great interview with Bernard Brogan ex— I think it's GAA.
?I don't—
Al ElliottI'm not really up on football, let alone Gaelic football, but he was quite a big cheese, uh, for the Dublin Gaelic footballers. I should probably find out the team name before next week, but also just a really, really nice guy. And he started a company called Pep Talk, which is really, really interesting way to look at wellbeing, but putting science and data behind it, which is what Leanne talks about all the time. Also, he has got a lovely Dublin accent. So if you are into accents, then you're gonna enjoy next week.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it should be a good one. We will see you there.
Al ElliottTake care.
KateBye-bye.