Episode 60 · 12 October 2023 · 54:39
What Our Mental Health Journey Has Taught Us About Work and Life
What Our Mental Health Journey Has Taught Us About Work and Life
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Why we're doing this today (World Mental Health Day)
How we met — the Samaritans story
What volunteering taught us about listening
Leanne's first experience of the mind-body connection
Panic attacks, anxiety disorder, and what helped
Al on the relentless pressure of hustle culture
Leanne's burnout — and what Al saw that she couldn't
The danger of comparing yourself to others
Money, happiness, and the $20,000 question
The one thing that keeps us healthier and happier for longer
Key takeaways — and a message to anyone struggling
Show notes
What Our Mental Health Journey Has Taught Us About Work and Life
A Truth, Lies & Work special episode — recorded on World Mental Health Day, Al and Leanne step away from the usual format to share something deeply personal: their own mental health journeys.
From the story of how they first met as volunteers for Samaritans, to their own battles with anxiety, burnout, and the pressure society places on men to achieve success — this is a candid, heartfelt conversation about the moments that led them to seek help, the support systems that made a difference, and the small steps they've taken towards improving their mental well-being.
They also explore the mind-body connection, the toxic side of hustle culture, the relationship between money and happiness, and why the quality of your relationships might be the single biggest predictor of how long and how well you live.
🎙️ What We Talk About
How we met. Before Truth, Lies & Work, before the business, Al and Leanne met as volunteers for Samaritans — the listening service that provides invaluable support to those who need it most. In this episode, they share the extraordinary story of their first overnight shift together, and the rare, powerful moment when a caller's story got a positive ending.
The mind-body connection. Leanne recalls the first time she realised how profoundly psychological stress can manifest physically — an experience that reshaped how she thinks about well-being. And Al opens up about his own struggles with anxiety, including the panic attacks that hit him and Leanne at the most unexpected moment: on a dark, single-track road up a mountain.
The pressure to achieve. Al gets honest about the mindset that told him staying in bed past 6:30 AM meant he'd "ruined the day" — and the years it took to unpick that thinking. Leanne reflects on her own burnout, and the moment she realised she couldn't see it coming even when the people closest to her could.
Money and happiness. They dig into the research on how much money actually correlates with happiness — and the uncomfortable truth that beyond a certain point, the pursuit of more can make us deeply unhappy.
The one thing that matters most. Leanne shares the finding from the famous Harvard longitudinal study: the single thing that keeps us healthier, happier, and alive longer. Spoiler: it's not your salary, your job title, or your productivity.
💚 If You're Struggling
If you're feeling in distress or despair, including suicidal feelings, please consider contacting The Samaritans:
- Call free from the UK: 116 123
- Email: jo@samaritans.org
- Self-Help App: samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/self-help/
📚 More From Truth, Lies & Work
Listen back for more on:
- Preventing Burnout: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/burnout-the-pandemic-part-1_1952/
- Well-being 2.0: The Future of Well-being at Work: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/wellbeing-2-0_2385/
- Help with Imposter Syndrome: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/what-is-imposter-syndrome_1988/
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottThat she'd woken up, she felt hope. She felt like it was a sign that she wasn't meant to die, because for everything that she took, she should have. Um, and yeah, she was gonna, gonna get help and carry on. Hello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWelcome, welcome. You might have heard that I've now got the cold that Leanne had last week. You're still a little bit rough, aren't you, love?
Leanne ElliottI am a little bit, yeah. I think I'm still a bit deeper in my voice than I normally am.
Al ElliottYeah, and I, and I, I'm just sounding like, oh, like I'm holding my nose.
Leanne ElliottBunged up.
Al ElliottBunged up. It's horrible, it's horrible. But, um, I don't think it's COVID. And also, we were saying we're quite lucky because we're going to, um, we're going to London. Well, we're setting off tomorrow, aren't we? And so with us already having a cold, we're hoping that we're not going to pick anything else up in London.
Leanne ElliottYeah, the immune system is fighting and Yeah, on form, hopefully. Oh, we'll both come back with COVID Oh, that would be disastrous.
Al ElliottBut anyway, worse things have happened. So, Lee, we're gonna do a slightly different version today, aren't we?
Leanne ElliottWe are.
Al ElliottWe have no guests. Uh, Leanne can't— yeah, no, we do have plenty of guests, people who, you know, who we're waiting to put on the pod. But, um, today we're going to talk a little bit about our personal story around mental health. Uh, just to give it a context, Lee, why have we decided to do that?
Leanne ElliottWell, today, day of recording, is World Mental Health Day, and the theme this This year is how mental health is a human right. It's about trying to break down inequity within mental health services to make sure everybody can experience positive mental health. And I think it's one of those things that we talk about a lot on the podcast. We talk about mental health, we talk about wellbeing. You might be thinking, who are you to sit and chat about this? Um, and I guess the answer is nobody really, but we will tell you a bit about our backgrounds and a bit about our experience with mental health and wellbeing and why we are so passionate about it. And hopefully share a bit more about us. We talk about authenticity and vulnerability in leadership. We have to do the same as well. And it's been a while since we've opened up. I think it's almost a year ago, isn't it? I think it was December last year that Al and I released our individual episodes, um, about our, our career history. So yeah, go back and listen to that if you're interested, but this is going to be a bit more, a bit more personal. Yeah.
Al ElliottSo, um, I think let's just start by setting the scene for new listeners perhaps, or old listeners, or not old, but existing listeners, um, who perhaps have heard about us before. We had a podcast, uh, We started a podcast about 4 years ago around travel. 10 years ago, we left the UK and started travelling full-time. We've been professionally unemployed, uh, not unemployed, professionally homeless, and I suppose unemployed, professionally homeless for, uh, for about 10 years now. Uh, maybe coming up 11. Uh, travelled around Europe, lived in, I think, almost every single country in, in mainland Europe. Uh, we've also been to the East, we've been to India, we've been lots of different places. And so on paper, people, I'm sure people who know us think, oh, you lucky bastards, look at that. It's, you've got the perfect life. And We wanna be open up a little bit about that and say no, aspects that aren't perfect. And we have the same challenges as if we were sitting in the UK in the rain. So, um, we're gonna open up a little bit about that, aren't we, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottAnd then we're gonna talk a little bit about our sort of, um, our backgrounds, um, how we, how we've sort of got to where we are today and the mental health struggles we've had, uh, each of us within that as well. You'll notice that Leanne's is skewed a little bit more towards, I'm not saying corporate, but towards employment because you were employed up until about 6 years ago, 7 years ago. Yeah. Whereas my last job was 2002 and it was, it was selling advertising space, um, which was a bit of a dodgy, dodgy company actually, thinking about it. Um, so I've been self-employed since then. So, Leanne, where do you want to start?
Leanne ElliottShould we start about how we met? Maybe a bit of a glimpse into, I guess, in a way, how we've both cared about mental health and wellbeing for a long time and independently. Um, yeah. Should we start there?
Al ElliottYeah. So do you wanna tell the story?
Leanne ElliottYou tell it.
Al ElliottOkay. So both of us, uh, this was back in about 2007, I think, when we first met, maybe 2006. Um, we were both volunteering for a, uh, charity in the UK called Samaritans. Now, if you're from the UK, you'll probably have a good idea what it is. If you're not from the UK, then I think the US and Australia have something very similar. The idea is if someone, if a member of the public is in distress or despair or have, uh, suicidal, sorry, suicidal thoughts, Then they can lift the phone and they can dial this number and it's anonymously talk to someone. And the whole point of Samaritans is we are not there to talk you out of ending your life if that's what you wanna do. We wanna talk to you about what it would be like if you ended your life. Um, like if you rung your mum and you said, I'm thinking, I'm thinking about killing myself, your mum would react in a very specific way.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottShe'd be like, oh my God, don't do this. Oh my God. Oh my God. I'm coming round. I'm coming round. I'm calling the police, whatever. If you ring Samaritans Thinking About Sending Out, then you say, I'm thinking about ending my life, then Samaritans would go, Okay, so I mean, what brought you to this point? And what do you think death would be like? Um, and all this kind of thing. So the whole point is that you get someone who's going to actually just talk to you without panicking and calling ambulance and all that kind of stuff.
Leanne ElliottYeah, without judgment. And, and the core belief of Samaritans is self-determination. So if you decide that that is the best option for you, then you have the right to make that decision, which can sound— I think a lot of people can't really wrap their heads around that when it comes to Samaritans, and particularly other mental health practitioners I've worked with in the past. Some of them aren't a big fan of Samaritans that, that reason. But I think from Al and I's experience, what tended to happen was, you know, that, that very extreme situation where somebody was in the process of killing themselves while we talked to them was very, very rare. Most of the time, people are calling up because they're, they're confused and they're scared and they're feeling hopeless, and they just need somebody to talk to and somebody to, to talk about these dark thoughts and feelings without that judgment and without that reaction. And often that in itself can be a huge relief and a huge weight. And then the mind can clear and start to be a bit more objective. Um, so yeah, the extreme case is rare, but that is in fact how Al and I met.
Al ElliottYeah. So, um, Leanne was there. She's, Leanne's a lot younger than me, 7 years younger than me. Uh, but she was kind of like my supervisor there because she was a bit more experienced. And so I was, I was still on probation. We were doing this overnight shift, which is 11 PM till 7 AM. Um, and there's 2 of us in the room and people think Samaritans might be this bank. It's not, it's just individual rooms around the country. And there was just 2 of us on and in that particular room on that particular night. About 4 o'clock in the morning, I took a call from a lady Who, and obviously I'm gonna generalize this because obviously Samaritan's whole point is confidentiality. This lady who was describing her life and saying that she wanted to end it and she started taking, so taking an overdose of pills. So obviously I put my hand up to Leanne because I'm like, you know, I need a little bit of guidance on this. You are the more experienced one. So Leanne came over, listened in, um, and was like sort of giving me, suggest writing down things to ask her. Um, anyway, so to cut a quite a long call short, cuz it was maybe about an hour and a half, uh, she ended up, uh, she said she's taking more and more pills and she ended up just sort of getting quieter, more slurred, more slurred. And then for the last 10 minutes there was just nothing.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, and she'd, we, we didn't know whether she'd go, well, our assumption was she'd fall into unconsciousness, but we didn't know whether that had meant that she'd actually, you know, passed away or not. Um, the slightly thing which I think a lot of people can't get their head around is that we did manage to get her address out of her saying, look, if you do change your mind at the very last minute, we can call an ambulance. But she said, I don't want you to do that. And the very last words to her was like, I absolutely do not want you to call an ambulance. I know what I'm doing. This is it. So we were sitting there a bit like, wow, fuck.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo, uh, we, we went and made a cup of tea, um, had a little chat about it. Um, and Leanne was like, look, you know, sometimes this happens, very rare, but sometimes it happens. You just, you don't know. I mean, and I was, I was of the opinion that this lady's life, she was kind of right. You know, she had a horrible life. I could totally understand why she was making that decision. That was not my place. Even if I believed that she was wrong, it's not my place to talk her out of it. So that all happened. And then that was like, and usually with these calls, you never hear anything else, do you, Lee?
Leanne ElliottUsually you don't know. Usually you— yeah, it's, it's very rare that, that you get an ending to that story, either, either happy or otherwise. Um, but yeah, a couple of hours later, Al was on another call. The phone went, I picked up, and it was the same woman.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd what was extraordinary about that is that this was an overnight shift, 11 PM till 7 AM. Uh, the Manchester and Salford branch that we volunteered for was one of the few branches in the country that were 24 hours. So because of that, you could get calls from all over the country that would route through into Manchester. So the chance of getting the same branch if you call back is very, very slim. So, but she called back. She said that she had taken an overdose, she'd woken up, she'd been sick, that she'd been speaking to a Samaritan early in the evening, and if there's any way of tracking down the man that she spoke to, could I please tell him thank you. that he had helped massively, that she'd woken up. She felt hope. She felt like it was a sign that she wasn't meant to die because for everything that she took, she should have. Um, and yeah, she was gonna, gonna get help and carry on. And that was Al.
Al ElliottYeah. And that just, I mean, that was the only time, it was probably a handful of times that happened to each one of us with a, what they call suicide in progress. And it was the only time for me, certainly, that you got any kind of like follow-up from it.
Leanne ElliottMe too. Yeah.
Al ElliottSo it was incredible. So Leanne and I were like, It's 7 o'clock in the morning in the middle of Manchester, obviously adrenaline, like, oh my God, this is like— we shared the most sort of, what's the word, intimate moment, I suppose, of someone's life. I don't know whether that sounds weird.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it is a very intimate moment.
Al ElliottYeah. And so, and I knew that I really liked Leanne, and, um, I found subsequently that she liked me. Um, and then I was like, oh, I should ask her for a coffee. But then I thought that'd be really weird because I'm a bit older and she's like kind of my boss, I suppose. So, um, so we just went our separate ways. Um, but anyway, long story short, we eventually, after about another year, um, I plucked up the courage to ask her out and we went out for a drink. And then, I mean, I would say the rest is history, but I was, I was a bit of a bad boyfriend for the first year, but then hopefully made up for it for the last 16. I think.
Leanne ElliottYou absolutely did. You absolutely did. But yeah, so I think that's the, that's how Al and I met. And that is, as I say, kind of an indication that both of us really thought that mental health was important and getting support for your mental health was important. And doing that from a point fairly early on in our careers— I think I was 20, you would have been 27. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's— so yes, and we did that for 5 years. We were Samaritans for 5 years. Al ended up, um, being on the training team. I was on the recruitment team. We were both on the committee. Al was the chair of Manchester and Salford Samaritans for a while. Al did the prisons, um, Yeah, there was lots and lots of different things that we did within the community as part of Samaritans, um, and it was, it was a really important part of my life, not only my career, but my— well, meeting Al, of course. I met my husband there. But yeah, I think it's— I think that's probably the start of it all, isn't it? That mental health was always something that we believed should be taken care of.
Al ElliottYeah, and I think the other things we learned from there was how to listen. You probably know that most people don't listen. They just wait for their turn to speak. Um, and to really listen to someone, to really learn how to listen, is one of the most valuable skills you can get. And it's— I think it pervades everything. So everything underpins everything that we do. Our interviews, we listen. We don't talk about ourselves. Um, in terms of our consultancy, we're paid to listen. In terms of everything, we're paid to listen, listen, listen. So it has been the— for the basis of almost every single thing we've Done. So, Lee, do we want to segue on to perhaps, um, a scenario where your mental health wasn't quite where you'd want it to be?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think my— I think my first experience of, I guess, realizing that, that how we felt psychologically could really impact how kind of we were physically— I mean, had experiences similar to that before. And if you go back to Al and I's episode, we talk about kind of an experience I had in high school, and that's how I decided to to go into psychology, but I think my first kind of personal experience with it was kind of that exam season stress. We all know I was, I was an academic. I did my A-levels, I went to university.
Al ElliottUm, nerd.
Leanne ElliottI know, I was a proper nerd. And I, I'd never thought I was that stressed about it. I was a bit worried, but you know, as you are, um, taking exams seriously. But I started suffering with eczema when I was 17. I'd never had eczema before. It's usually a thing you get as a kid, isn't it?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottI'd never had it before, and it was everywhere. It was all up my arms, all over my chest, all down my legs, all over my stomach. It was everywhere, and it was so uncomfortable and so itchy and so painful. And I went to the doctors and I couldn't get rid of it. I was using all the creams and the washes and, and nothing would work. And then the day after my final exam, it just went away. It just went away. And then every year when exams came around, the same would happen. It would flare up, it would go away, it would flare up, it would go away. And that was the first time that I was kind of like, wow, like physiologically my stress is, is manifested physiologically so, so bad, so much, so, so strongly.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottUm, I think that was my first experience, I guess, personal experience of kind of the mind-body connection. And how, um, how strong that is.
Al ElliottYeah, it's nuts, isn't it? And I think, I think anyone who's listening to this, I'm hoping someone's listening to this and thinking, oh, oh, now I get it. I had massive— I used to get lots of really bad indigestion and stomach issues and all that kind of thing. And that was definitely down to, down to stress. And, um, and now I think we both of us, we'd rather— people say to us, are you busy? We go, no, because we don't want to go back to where that situation was. And I don't know about you, but I find every, every few weeks, I'm like, I don't know, I might have a sore stomach or something, and I'm like, oh right, okay, that's my sign that I'm taking things a bit too seriously, taking myself a bit too seriously and taking too much on.
Leanne ElliottDefinitely, yeah, just a little, a little, little patch of dry skin, I'm like, uh-oh. Um, but yeah, that's probably my first one, which is quite mild. And then I guess my next experience after that, which was much more significant, was Al and I were in an attempted carjacking in Manchester, actually on the way to do an overnight shift at Samaritans. This is when we were living together in Oldham. Um, and I was driving and I decided to take a, a back road route into, um, into Manchester city centre, which looking back was probably a bit daft. But even then, it was a route we'd done loads and loads of times at night. It wasn't particularly dodgy or dark. And there was a car just sat there in the middle of the road. And me being naive was like, oh, I wonder what they're doing? And flashed my lights, went beep beep. Um, and then the next minute they were just flashing their, their lights and just driving towards us. Wow.
Al ElliottAnd they hit us, didn't they, the first time?
Leanne ElliottYeah, they hit us, and I was like, fuck, reverse, reverse! But it was single track, it was dark, it was up a hill, um, it was terrifying. Then I froze and panicked, and then a guy got out of, out of the car with a baseball bat. Um, at that point I was like, Leah, come on, you can do this, drive! And I was like, oh my God, reverse, reverse, reverse! And then somehow, luckily, they were— they kept ramming into us, and for some reason they decided to try and ram the side of us. I'm not sure if they were trying to get our wheels or I don't know, but they ended up managing to bump themselves to the side of the road, and at that point we could, we could floor it, um, and go down. So obviously after that, a little bit of anxiety was felt, but it was actually a few years later and speaking to a mental health professional that I realized that, um, because a few years after that I started suffering with panic attacks, quite severe panic attacks, and it took me a long, long time to connect that my anxiety was trauma-induced. Not post-traumatic stress disorder, but trauma-induced.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne Elliottanxiety disorder. Um, so it is quite, it is quite cognitive. It's quite flashing lights will, will trigger me, or certain scenarios will trigger me. Any sense of incongruence, not being able to make sense of the situation, I feel myself panicking. That was the, the event that happened, and then subsequently, high levels of stress tipped me into some pretty significant panic attacks.
Al ElliottHow's that gone away? I mean, what was that, just time that it's just gone away?
Leanne ElliottUm, there is a few different things that I think have happened for that to go away, and I think a big one was us moving abroad.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottAnd getting away from that high-stress, always-on mentality that I was in in the UK. I had a great job and I had a very supportive manager in a very caring environment. If I'd have gone in and said I was struggling with mental health challenges, I would have been supported. They're incredible. But that didn't take away from the fact that I was a manager in a high-stress, performance-driven role with lots of people that I was responsible for. Um, in an environment as cool as Manchester is, it is very hustle, it is very competitive even amongst your peers or people you know, or, you know, it is a, it is a, it is that kind of hamster wheel thing. So I think that definitely helped, like having this segregation of, of work and life, and literally left the country, went to work in the UK, went to live in Spain. Um, so I think that definitely helps separate things. Um, I stopped drinking caffeine for about 2 years, and even now I can only have 2 cups of coffee maximum a day, otherwise I can feel myself starting to vibrate. Um, eating better. I think maybe just being a bit more self-aware. So when I can— like, you know how you're saying you find yourself, you get a bad stomach and you catch yourself and you'll start to— a similar thing. Like, there's certain things that I experience before It escalates to the point where I'm going to have a panic attack, and that can take weeks or months. So things like feeling like a shortness of breath or vertigo, like feeling dizzy when I stand up, trouble sleeping, yeah, insomnia, and then hypersomnia when I can't wake up in the morning. So there's little things like that that I'll look out for. I know, and then it's just a case of saying no to stuff, whether that's work stuff, whether that's social stuff, making sure I've got that rest and recovery time. I I am quite introverted and I need time to build my energy levels back up. And if I don't have that for too long a period of time, then that's when I start to, start to slip, I think. So how about you? Because I mean, it's— it was a frightening experience, but I don't think that that was one of your triggering events, was it, that contributed to some of your challenges?
Al ElliottNo, I don't think it did. I mean, I, I have to be honest, I'm a lot more wary driving at night or of any other driver now these days. Um, but I think that you mentioned something there about the hustle, which is my trigger. And it was something which, when we first met, um, I was really into Gary Vaynerchuk. Um, I was really into sort of like the hustle culture. And I was like, they call it hustle porn these days. Um, and it was really into that. And I think the— It was that idea that you have to get up at 5, you have to get an ice bath, then you have to drink coffee with butter in it. And then, and then you go and journal, then you do all this, and then that's what's gonna make you wealthy. But you also then have to go to bed at 12 at night after doing 16-hour days and all that. And I followed that. I subscribed to that. I did the whole Tony Robbins walking across the coal thing. I did, you know, read all the books, the self-help books I could read. And I was like, yeah, okay, right. I'm gonna make a better version of myself. And that just led to, it led to, to some success in terms of business. Yes, I built, me and my partner, um, Chris built a property company from nothing. I was literally bankrupt when we started it. Yeah. At the end of it, had a couple of million in, in equity in there, and we built that over about sort of 18, 19 months. But the hustle just took it out of me and took me years to recover. And looking back, I would rather— I'd rather have my life back than the actual money. And I think that the hustle— a lot of people read Twitter, they read these things and go, right, okay, this is what I need to do in order to make it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd it's like, no, that's what Gary Vaynerchuk is doing in order to make it. Because Gary Vaynerchuk is probably morbidly— perfect phrase— morbidly afraid of dying. And so therefore he wants to fit as much as he possibly can in his life. That's Gary's way. Your way may be very, very different. The other thing to consider is that we, we're recording this and someone has just done, I think in the UK, has just done an almost 2-hour marathon. So they ran 26 miles in 2 hours. We worked out like 4 minutes and 3, 4 minutes and 3 seconds per mile or something like that. It's I think it's the fastest it's ever been done. And I wanna say, look, the reason, the reason that's newsworthy is because it's uncommon. And so if you see stuff on Twitter, you see news of a 14-year-old who's made a million pounds because they built this app, it's newsworthy because it's uncommon. And so don't assume that hustle is the way you do it. There's a great quote, and I think it's Bob Dylan, but if it's not, please find us on LinkedIn, tell us who it is, who said something like, happiness can be defined as waking up in the morning.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottGoing to bed at night and doing in the in-between, doing what you love. And I think that's it. If you find that intersection of what you are good at, what people will pay for, and what you can do over an extended period of time, money just, just disappears. You're not even that bothered because money will come. But more importantly, you'll wake up excited about your day rather than waking up at 5 and going, oh Jesus, I, my book says I've gotta go for a run now. Then I've gotta go and have some coffee. Then I've gotta go and meditate for 10 minutes. Then I've gotta go and journal for 20 minutes. Just so I can say on Twitter, I've got more done by 7 AM than most people have got done by midday.
Leanne ElliottYou were saying there it took you years to, to recover. From what? Like, how were you feeling? How are you thinking? What was that looking like? And how did you recover?
Al ElliottI always felt if I stayed in bed past like 7 AM or 6:30 AM that I was failing and I'd ruined the day. So I'd feel that. I'd also like look at other people and go, hang on a minute, I'm turning 33. I'm not now, I'm turning 40. 7 next year, but I'm turning 33 and look what I've made of my life. I've made nothing of my life. Oh my God, there are people out there who, who at 33 have built 6 businesses and now living, you know, in a cottage in the Alps. And then I just can— and this comes on to another thing I'm going to talk about there— I just compare myself to others and go, I'm not as good as them. And the reason is I'm not hustling. And I think— and it doesn't help because you— your social media algorithms, even back then, once you watch one thing, you'd— they'd give you more of the same. So you felt that everyone out there was hustling. And I think that's how it sort of ends. And the way I stopped it was just stopped reading those books, stopped worrying about things, said, okay, here's my to-do list of 15 things. What happens if I, how many of these can I cross off and no one's gonna care? Oh shit, I can cross off 9 of them. No one's gonna care. So I'll just do those top 3.
Leanne ElliottAnd how did you get out, try to undo some of that mindset?
Al ElliottI'm not sure I've necessarily undone it. Because I still now wake up and I can't lie in bed because I feel like I'm wasting time. I was ill yesterday in bed all day, and I felt really shit about it all day because I felt like I'd wasted the whole day. So I still— I'm sure it's still in there, but I just stop worrying about all the people thinking. I stop— I used to go on Facebook and go, like, sort of 6:30 AM, I'd wake up, set my alarm, and the first thing I go on Facebook and go, ready for another day, ready at them. And it's like, don't be a dick, Al. Don't be one of those guys. But I was one of those guys because I wanted the rest of the world to think that I was a hustler, even though I woke up and I was like, oh my God, I don't want to get out of bed because there's just so much to do and so much overwhelm.
Leanne ElliottAnd of course, you know, we are kind of talking from a position of privilege. There are people that need to go out and do whatever job they can to earn money. I think, I think even then there are— and I've worked, I've worked, and again, I feel I can say this because I've worked with people who've been long-term unemployed. Has put them to get back into work. And I think, you know, there were ways that we could find jobs that they, they did enjoy or aligned with their interests in some way. So I think even then there are, there are options and there are choices that you can make. But of course we are talking from a very— a point of privilege here, which is the whole point of World Mental Health Day this year is about addressing the inequity. And I think that's Again, one thing that Al and I have always been aware of, maybe not very, very consciously, but I think our actions have kind of over time shown that we probably have been quite aware of our privilege and we have been quite aware of, of addressing that imbalance in some way through Samaritans. Um, Al used to go and do mentorship, didn't you? Um, for schools in with low socioeconomic backgrounds. Um, I worked in Welfare to Work.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottFor 5 years, um, you know, helping people with multiple, multiple challenges. Um, so I think we've always maybe been aware of our, our position of privilege, um, and trying to, trying to give back a little bit. And including when we've moved abroad, you know, we've tried, um, we tried to do our bits there as well, including adopting a little, little ginger puppy called Peanut.
Al ElliottHe's asleep down here over my shoulder. Okay, Lee, what else you got?
Leanne ElliottYou mean like other challenges I've experienced? Um, well, and I think my other main one was I had an episode of burnout. Um, and that was a surprise. I did not see that coming. Um, I think I, I went through a period where I was working with an organization that was giving me plenty of opportunity financially. It was very well paid. Um, but I was doing work that wasn't the work I loved, and it was moving me further and further away as time went on from from psychology and from doing that. Even little things like they asked me to take off my LinkedIn profile. Um, and I think it just— that part of my identity started to kind of get chipped away. And at the time, I didn't think it bothered me that much because I thought, I just need to get through this bit and then it'll be better. I need— I fell into that really crappy mindset. Once we achieve this, it'll be better. Once we do this, it'll be better. Once we grow to this point, it'll be better. Um, and it wasn't better. And I think, um, I think I'd started to realize that this work just wasn't bringing me joy, and I was finding it really hard and very stressful. And I think, but in a different way to like the, the stress I experienced previously, it was almost like it was, it was turning me down. It was turning my voice down. It was turning my light down. It was just, I had to be a different version of myself. I had to, yeah, just, just dim myself really. Um, and then I think— and I didn't really notice. I knew I was tired. I knew that I was— I did start to feel like, like, think that kind of dread of going to work. Um, so I definitely felt the exhaustion side of it. I just— I was starting to feel a detachment, whether I was— I was starting to lose my confidence in terms of of what I was able to do. Um, but my breakthrough symptom of burnout was the cynicism. And I remember sat with Al in Gdańsk in Poland, beautiful food market with a glass of wine on a Sunday. Um, and as we did many times, you know, we have a ridiculous life. You know, Al would say, you know, where do you want to— where do you want to go next month? Where do you want to live? What do you see the rest of this year being like? Um, and I remember just being so Freaking angry, and I just saying to Al like, "How dare you ask me to dream right now? I'm just trying to get through a day at a time, and I don't need that on a Sunday as you chirping on my ear about all these other things that I'm gonna have to do when I'm just trying to get through, get through the week." And it was like an out-of-body experience. I looked down at myself and just thought, "Who are you? Who are you? I don't even like you right now." And Al quite rightly. Put me in my place.
Al ElliottIt's funny you said you didn't see it coming, and I did.
Leanne ElliottReally?
Al ElliottYeah, I could see it. What would you have liked me to have done, which I didn't do, seeing that I saw the burnout was coming? I didn't know what it was because I didn't really know what burnout was then, but I knew there was something coming down the pipe. I didn't know what to do about it. What would you have wanted me to do about it?
Leanne ElliottDo you know what, I've talked to Sally Clark about this, who's on the podcast a few episodes ago, um, there's a really great webinar with her coming up actually. Which we'll keep you posted on. Um, I remember talking to Sally about this, and she was kind of like, when, when I was at my, at my, like, before breaking point, you couldn't have said anything to me.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottCouldn't say anything to me. I was doing what I had to do. I was hustling. I was working. I was strong. I was independent. There's not really anything that you could have said. Well, she said, you know, there's nothing you could have said to me. And I feel the same. I'm not sure there's anything you could have said to me, um, that would have necessarily jolted me out of it. I think, I think you handled it really well. You listened, you were there, you let me talk, you let me vent. You never told me what to do because that would have just annoyed me. Because I think that's the thing, isn't it? When you're starting to experience symptoms of burnout, you feel this loss of control. And I think if somebody else would have told me I was losing control, that again, that anger would have kicked in. And I think that for me was a breakthrough because it was— of all the things to lose in this world, Jobs come and go, like you say, money come and go, comes and goes. The thought of— and I know it was never— I knew, I guess deep down it was not necessarily a reality that you'd leave me, but even just that, that sense of I'm pushing you away, right, that for me jolted me out of it, I think. And I think within a couple of weeks I quit my job, and then the pandemic happened. Great timing, Leah. The thing to bear in mind, I think, if you are somebody who is, who is with somebody who, or living with somebody who is experiencing stress or depression or anxiety or possibly symptoms of burnout, is it's not you. Like, this person will probably start to detach and withdraw and be quiet, and it's not you. And I think, as hard as it is, my only advice would be to just try and keep talking to them, try and keep creating a a non-judgmental environment for them so that they can talk about how they're feeling, give them opportunities to vent, continue to ask them to, to go for dinner or, or go for walks. Or you just need somebody, even if they can't, they can't break down the wall, just popping their head over it and going, you all right?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think that would be the hardest thing is if people walked away. But then of course with any scenario like that as well, you know, they can escalate. They can escalate to things of distress and despair and suicidal thoughts. It can escalate to significant substance abuse. So of course, if those things are happening, then yeah, you probably do need to, to take more action and try and get people to even go and see their GP or, you know, something like that. Talk to your GP about it. I know that's really hard these days, but it's, it's since been coined moral burnout, where it's kind of triggered by a sense that your identity and your values are misaligned with the organization you're working for. And I think that's definitely where where my source of it came from, um, rather than necessarily the overworked, overwhelmed. Um, so yeah, it's an interesting thing if anyone is struggling, which is why, you know, which is why I love the Gen Z talking about values and making sure they're aligned from early on in their career. Damn straight, because if they don't, you know, you could end up like me, kids. Um, but yeah, how about you, Al? Is there anything else that you've experienced in your life that That you want to share that you feel that you've learned from?
Al ElliottYeah, I think that some of the lowest moments in my life have always been— and I was thinking about this a lot yesterday and also today when I was out with the dog, thinking, is there a commonality? And I think there is, and I think it's down to comparison. And I think my lowest points have always been when I've been comparing myself to other people. And I was thinking about this, like, um, you know, if someone goes to a therapist or someone is unhappy or It all seems to stem from this idea that they are lacking something, and that the lack can only come from comparing yourself to other people who don't have that. So if I, I, I want to— if I wanted to compare myself to the guy who's just run the 2-hour marathon, you know, first of all, he's half my age. Secondly, he's half my weight. Thirdly, he's been running for all his life, and I've done it 3 times in PE when I was 11. Um, so You know, I could in theory go, oh my God, I am so unfit. There's no— but that doesn't seem— that seems silly. You need some tension if you want to improve. But I was thinking that rather than comparing yourself to someone else, compare yourself to maybe you yesterday or last week or 12 months ago. And that way, as long as you are growing and as long as you're getting better and better each single week, day, month, whatever.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYou've got something to compare yourself to, so you've got attention, but you also feel good about that comparison because generally most years you get better. I mean, this whole idea of comparison— someone called it comparison is the thief of joy. Um, I read this thing once and it said most people buy things they don't want with money they don't have to impress people they don't even like. And that sums up the whole of the UK for me. Using this juxtaposition of the UK where everyone's like, oh, your car's 3 years old. Oh, can you not afford a new one? Banter, banter. You should be buying a new car compared to maybe places like Spain, uh, like Bosnia where we are now. The places that seem the happiest weirdly don't have identifying years in their number plates. So you can't tell if your car's 5 years old or 10 years old or 15 years old apart from knowing what the model's like.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIf yes, compare yourself to who you want to be and who you have been, but stop comparing yourself to others because there's always someone out there with a bigger cigar.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think the pursuit of stuff is, is a bit challenging, isn't it, when you are from the UK? Or I'm sure it's the same in, in North America as well, Australia. Um, and I think that is something that we, we We seem to learn as we get older, I think, whether you're having a family or you start to experience other things, or you start to experience loss, and it puts things into perspective. But I think if you're a younger person listening who, I guess, gets there, maybe think that's where their sense of self-worth will come from, or confidence will come from, or— I think, yeah, I think that's a, that's a challenging mindset to be in. And, and, you know, particularly, you know, we think about, about financial well-being and the challenges people are having. By far our most downloaded episodes of the podcast history was that episode with, with Kara Cooper and Ryan and Kushboo.
Al ElliottUm, that was talking about financial—
Leanne ElliottLet's talk about financial well-being. Yeah, so I think, I think, yeah, I think it's tough, isn't it? I think there's also this point of, again, a point of privilege where, you know, finding roles that will make you, um, experience purpose and meaning is much easier to do when you've got, you know, a low mortgage on a 3-bed house in the part of the world that you want to live and you go on holiday twice a year and I think, yeah, there is a sense of that. But I think if for younger people listening, like, this is a— I think just be mindful that that association between stuff and happiness probably isn't real.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think one day there was something will happen that will teach you that lesson, and probably in a harsh way. So I think there's work that you can do to think about The things that bring you joy, um, and think about more experiences or people or hobbies or, you know, there is nothing more joyful to me than sitting down on a Saturday morning with a cup of tea and watching James Martin having like a bit of brunch, whether that be a bacon butty or something fancy like avocado on toast. Like, it's just— that brings me joy of a Saturday morning. Walking out with Peanut and seeing his stupid little face like bounding towards me as he was running, that brings me joy. Joy. Um, being near water, like sitting in a cafe and, and seeing a river, or next to the beach, or that gives me a sense of peace. That gives me joy. Doing my skincare routine brings me joy. There's so many different things, and, and these, these things that are acts of self-care and self-compassion that really do make a difference to our, our mental health. And it's not— there might be time to time that it's a bit about stuff, Um, but most of the time it's actually about ritual and experience and, and that type of thing. So yeah, sorry, I got off on a rant there.
Al ElliottNo, it's all right. I want to come back to that for my final point, which is already only a very quick one.
Leanne ElliottPlease do.
Al ElliottSo no, what have you got? No, no, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottUm, what else do I have? I think the only thing that I have noticed when you were saying about— and I've thought about this before actually the last couple of weeks Um, it's been a busy— it's been a bit busy few weeks here in Podcast HQ for various reasons, including our brand new, um, video podcast producer who you, um, will meet very soon. It's been a busy time. It's been a busy few months. We've been moving around quite a bit this summer. I was thinking back to when I was my most— when I felt my most kind of grounded, my most centered, my most healthy, I guess. Um, and it was probably the year— it was probably 2020. 2021 into 2022. Um, and I think lockdown— yeah, like the end of lockdown and then coming out of it.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottUm, but I think I got really into a routine of exercising, and particularly in terms of like strength training or Pilates type stuff. I was reflecting on this because I would never like do the cardio stuff. I would be like, ugh. And you get into it and you feel great afterwards, but it never shifted for me from like going into it and thinking, oh God, Whereas with the kind of the weight training stuff or the resistance training, I really enjoyed it and I couldn't wait to do it. And I've been reflecting on this, and I think it's because it gave me a sense of control.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottLike, I was literally in control of the movements I was making. I was mindful of that control. And I think for anybody who suffers with anxiety, it's often that lack of control and the unknown, um, that's always with you. And I think for me, that really helped to exercise my sense of control, um, and I miss that. And I'm— yeah, that's my— once we get Mad World during this week, that's going to be my new thing on the run-up to Christmas, is get back into that, that routine, um, because I just— yeah, I just felt like that was my most balanced I've been for a long while. And I don't think doing what you're saying, you know, just try and be a better version of the person than you were last year— I think I am a better version in, in many ways and probably more work-related ways. Um, but in terms of that side of managing my mental health and that side of self-care, that has slipped for me. Um, so that's something I want to, I want to focus on because I know mentally I've been in a better place and I, I know how to get back there again. So I need to just put in the work.
Al ElliottWell, there we go. We're on target for 50,000, uh, listeners this month. So you've just told 50,000 people, so you've gotta go ahead and do it right now.
Leanne ElliottI will.
Al ElliottSo my final one is around this universal idea of money, and I think that money makes people so unhappy. There's something which changed for us about probably about 2 years ago. We were in Croatia in a little village called Imotski, and what's cool about living in particularly the Balkans, but a lot of Europe, is— and if you live out in the countryside— is that you don't— you kind of find people who don't have a great deal or don't appear to have a great deal, but still like, we'll give you a lovely smile in the morning and say hello. And, um, you know, and, and so that kind of like helps you to stop thinking about, I need a new car because this person's perfectly happy and they've got no car. They've got a donkey. Do you know what I mean? Um, so that kind of like was getting us down this road. And then we went to this, um, to this winery and the owner of the wine— well, he was the son of the owner of the winery. Um, and, uh, he kind of was a bit grumpy when we turned up cuz he's like, English bloody hell. I'm gonna speak English to them.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottBut after a little while, he joined us and he was bringing out all these wines. We were drinking them all together, and I think we're all getting a little bit merry. And he, remember, he stopped and he went, I don't, I'm not a millionaire, but I live a millionaire lifestyle. As he said, as we sat at the edges of his vines with all his grapes going off into the distance, the sun was just setting over this, over the hills. We were drinking this amazing white wine that he'd made himself. Um, and he just, and that just stuck with us. And so.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOne of the things I kind of want to say to anyone who's like, right, there's going to be a level of money where you need, and yes, to subsist, of course there will be. And if you're not at that level, then, you know, Godspeed. I hope you get there as soon as you possibly can. But once you get to a point where you're like, okay, I've got a working car if I need one, I've got enough food, and I can go for a walk in the evening, money is great. Up until a point where you can subsist, and thereafter it's okay not to, not to chase it. For those people, the Elon Musks of the world, money is, is, is the, the game is making money and money is how you keep, keep score. That's it. Leanne said a couple of weeks ago that, that I think it was the financial, um, wellbeing episode, is that the stats show that people who've, who earn $20,000 or less or $80,000 or— now hang on, you want, want the stats, Leanne? 'Cause they were really good.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. No, it's basically that. Yeah. Less than, less than $20,000. Or more than— I think it was actually a bit less, I think it was more than 60— had higher instances of depression, anxiety, struggles with mental health. Um, so yeah, money. And I think we talked about as well in terms of the psychology of happiness episode.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThere is a correlation between, between happiness or good mood, um, and money up to about— and I think again that was lower, I think that was £50,000 a year. And after that doesn't make much difference. So Al's right, you need, you need a certain amount of money to, to be comfortable, to live, to not experience stress from, from lack. Um, but yeah, money, money will not make you happy, and the science has proven that time and time again. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science. behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottYou know that longitudinal study? What's the one thing that, that keeps us going healthier, happier, and longer? It's relationships.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThat is the one thing. And that is— and this is going to sound really harsh, but really kind of assessing the quality of your relationships and what are they bringing you. I have been friends with people in the past who aren't in my life anymore who were very materialistic, very driven in that way, and very, you know, if you weren't, if you weren't getting to these, these, this stuff, then you weren't being successful. Um, so I think, yeah, I think particularly if you're a young person, or I think, you know, just that if other people around you saying that you can't do things, the people around you trying to limit your potential, your capability, you know, how dare you dream that big, who do you think you are? And of course, I'm not saying cut these people out of your life because that might be your parents, it could be your siblings, it could be, um, you know, people you've known for, for years and years and years. But maybe just look at diversifying those relationships. Are there ways to surround yourself with people that maybe will dream big with you, that will, you know, push the limit of things? And I think that's a— you know, we still have amazing friends back in, in the UK, but we've also made amazing friends who we felt very, very closely, very, very quickly Because they lived a similar lifestyle. They've been traveling or they lived abroad, and they just get it in a way that other people can't because they understand the challenges and the sacrifice and the downside, and then the huge upsides and the huge rollercoaster journey you go on from extreme joy to extreme sadness often living this life.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think it's, yeah, if there's a way to diversify those relationships, if you're feeling that there's not somebody who is in your corner, who are your ride and die? And if you don't have at least 2, then I think you, yeah, maybe look at that, whether it's joining a hobby group or even something, you know, some groups online like entrepreneurship groups or, or that type of thing. Um, yeah, I'm probably laboring the point at this point, but what is it you said? Who said it, the 5 people thing?
Al ElliottOh, I heard it was Jim Rohn, but it was probably someone before that saying you are the sum of the 5 people you spend the most time with. And I think that is— that alludes to exactly what you're talking about there with the relationships. And if the 5 people you spend time with, they're all like, oh, look at them, they're filthy rich, and oh, it's not fair that Elon Musk makes all this money, he should be giving all of it back to us. And, you know, that's just a lack mindset. You're comparing yourself to someone who's got a lot of money and going, I want some of it. Whereas if you make sure you surround yourself with people who are genuinely happy, who do things that make them happy, not that they think make them look good in other people's eyes, I think you're on to a winner.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And you know what, volunteering is a really good way to find those types of people as well, people whose values align with your own and have that, that same— this— yeah, that same vision or purpose or beliefs or a way they want the world to be. Um, so yeah, if you are feeling a bit of a lack there or you're starting to think, oh, do you know what, Maybe, maybe I do need some to diversify my relationships a bit. That'd be my advice. Look at, look at volunteering. It's a really, really great way of doing that.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. So should we quickly summarize our points then?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I don't— I've not really kept track of my points. I think, yeah, I think the— do you know, I remember having conversation. I won't say who, um, but I think they listen to the podcast and they might remember. And I remember I wasn't hugely open about my anxiety when it started. Um, but I started to share more as I got more comfortable with it, and which is also important if you're able to. And this person said to me, you never struck me as the type of person that would suffer from anxiety.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottYou seem so controlled and together and, and decisive, and, you know, you like to take risks, and, and, and you're a psychologist. Um, yeah, even people who you might think have got their shit together Chances are they would have experienced something at some point. They might well be experiencing that right now and, and be very good at masking it. I saw something else. It was like, if, um, I think it's just summarizing my point of kind of, you know, you never really know. And mental health happens to everyone and anyone. Mental health doesn't discriminate. Um, or poor mental health doesn't discriminate. You may think, I never would have known you suffer with anxiety. I had no idea that was an experience for you because you put, you put yourself so together in the world. That being a high— a person with high-functioning anxiety, that makes it easier for the people around me to deal with my anxiety. It doesn't make it easier for me. It can happen to anyone. It does happen to anyone. It's much more common than you will ever realize. And yeah, you're not— you're really not alone with it.
Al ElliottPoor mental health and poor and low self-worth is probably one of the major reasons why your work Karen is like Karen, why Your boss, if you've got a bad boss and they won't let you do certain things, why that friend is always just a bit weird with you, it's all down to probably lack of self-worth, comparing themselves to others and resulting in poor mental health. And so when you start to think about that, you realize that actually you're right. It's a lot more common than you think. And actually, I think good for the Gen Zs and the millennials for making us talk about this.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottUs Gen X and the generation above me, the boomers. We didn't. We wouldn't dare say that we were struggling with mental health because then we'd be called the looners and the loonies.
Leanne ElliottAnd we wouldn't get that promotion.
Al ElliottYou wouldn't get— oh no, he's a bit unstable, Al. Yeah, a bit unstable.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and that is why, you know, I know I say it with Jess, but I mean it sincerely. I love the conversations that are happening with Gen Z and the younger millennials, and I'm, I'm excited for this shift because it's— and you know what, it might, it might feel a bit uncomfortable to us older people. It might feel a bit snowflakey or a bit over-egged, but the point is, it's— we need that radical change of conversation to have an impact on mental health services. All right, the conversation has changed, but the access to support and care hasn't changed. The inequity in that hasn't changed. The only thing that's changed is people being more comfortable to talk about it. We now have a bit more of a vocabulary to talk about these things, but we need to shout that loud Until that change actually happens at a systemic level, at an organizational level, at a healthcare level, that people get access to the, to the support that they need in times of crisis, but also in terms of, you know, prevention. How do we build ourselves from surviving to thriving, as we talked to Louise from Business in the Community a few, a few months ago? If you're feeling skeptical or cynical, one, are you okay? Might be experiencing burnout. I've been there. It's not easy to spot. Um, but if these conversations, you know, are are kind of giving you a bit of an eye roll, I, I will give you permission for that eye roll when these conversations are happening and people have equitable access to mental health care services. Until that happens, we need to keep shouting about it.
Al ElliottWe— the majority of people, if you're listening to this on a mobile phone, then you're probably quite privileged because you've got access to the internet, you've got access to a smartphone, um, so you're already in the top maybe 10, 15, 20, 30% of the population. So That brings me on to my other one about comparing yourself to others. Um, it's good for growth. You need some tension. You can't, you know, don't down-compare to others by going, oh, I'm better than them. But also don't do the other thing of saying, well, they're so much better than me and that's why my life is rubbish. You can live a millionaire lifestyle without being a millionaire. Just be kind to yourself.
Leanne ElliottBe kind to yourself. Yeah. And I think my final, my final thought would be, if you are struggling at the minute, if you are feeling in distress or despair or hopeless or feelings of suicide, there are people that you can talk to, and we will leave phone numbers and links in the show notes for you. You might feel very alone in this moment, but it doesn't have to be that way. If you are currently experiencing a crisis, we will leave some things in the show notes that, that can help, or you can always drop Al and I an email and we will do what we can to, to point you in the right direction.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Um, the Samaritans of the UK has an email service Um, so you don't even need to call them. Um, so, and you know, if that would be easy if you're outside the UK and you don't have access to that, or you don't know where the equipment is, that's a possibility. So a little bit of a somber one, but I feel that's an important one that we needed to say because, like we said, I'm not saying for any second that we are influencers, but people could look at us and go, oh, look at these guys with a podcast and living abroad and all this kind of stuff. And we wanted just to be really honest and go, look, it It ain't all sunshine and rainbows.
Leanne ElliottYeah, honest talk, what it's like, our own experiences. And also that, you know, mental health is something that we have invested in for ourselves and to try and support other people for a long time. For how long? 15 years probably and counting. Uh, we're not just some, some weirdos that just came up and were like, hey, we're going to talk to you about mental health and well-being. Um, yeah, we've lived this for, for a little while. So hopefully you've learned a bit more about, about us, our experiences. Hopefully we have given you some positive comparisons if you are struggling. That doesn't mean that other things can't work out, or it will all be okay in the end, or it will just be a part of your life that sits with you. My anxiety sits with me. I know she's always there. Um, sometimes she's bigger, sometimes she's smaller. Um, but yeah, she's, she's a part of me and she's all right. Just keep her in, keep her in check.
Al ElliottAnd if anything's resonated with you and you want to get in touch, our emails will be on the show notes. We'd love to hear from you. We love hearing from listeners, so please let us know. And, um, I hope you're okay and I hope you're having, having a good day, and we'll see you next week for Perhaps a little chirpier in nature, but equally important message.
Leanne ElliottYes, absolutely. Next week we will be bringing you all the gossip from the Mad World Summit, the 6th Mad World Summit that's happening in London, uh, this week. Um, so yeah, if we, if we saw you there, if we, if we're gonna see you there, if we'll see you there— this gets released on Thursday. If you're listening to this and you're at the Mad World Summit, come and see us. That's us.
Al ElliottYeah, that's us.
Leanne ElliottYeah, that's us. But yeah, we'll bring you the inside scoop on what is set to be an incredible, incredible event. So yeah, we will see you next week.
Al ElliottYep. Registration link is in the show notes. Bye-bye.