Episode 67 · 30 November 2023 · 34:27
67: How the BBC and RSPCA handle Trauma in the Workplace
67: How the BBC and RSPCA handle Trauma in the Workplace
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What is workplace trauma?
The 3 things we're covering today
Meet Jeremy — Assistant Director Employee Experience at the RSPCA
The different forms trauma can take
The BBC — more than just the newsreader on your telly
news roundup#bbc#organizational-culture#news
What does a psychologist at the BBC actually do?
Frontline challenges at the RSPCA
TRiM — Trauma Risk Management explained
The BBC uses TRiM too
The people who can't say they're not okay
Compassion fatigue — the other side of trauma
Al's time volunteering with the Samaritans
There are no superheroes
Show notes
How the BBC and RSPCA Handle Trauma in the Workplace
Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) are joined by special guests from the BBC and the RSPCA to tackle one of the most misunderstood and often-hidden issues in modern work: trauma.
From journalists heading towards danger zones to RSPCA inspectors facing distressing situations daily, this episode pulls back the curtain on how two of the UK's most recognisable organisations support their people through the very worst of what work can throw at them.
They explore what workplace trauma actually is (hint: it's not just the big, dramatic incidents), why so many employees suffer in silence, and the practical frameworks — like TRiM (Trauma Risk Management) — that help organisations spot the signs before it's too late.
What We Covered
What workplace trauma actually is
Trauma isn't just the single catastrophic event — the accident, the assault, the tragedy. It's also the chronic, grinding stressors that build up over time. Leanne breaks down the different forms trauma can take, from acute incidents to the slow-burn accumulation that can leave lasting psychological damage.
Two very different organisations, one shared challenge
Jeremy from the RSPCA talks about the reality of frontline work — inspectors dealing with distressed animals and distressed owners, often in confronting situations. Meanwhile, the BBC's Clare explains what it's like supporting journalists who head towards the places everyone else is fleeing.
TRiM: the framework both organisations swear by
Trauma Risk Management (TRiM) is a peer-support framework that helps organisations spot the signs of trauma early and get people the right help, fast. Both the BBC and the RSPCA use it — and we dig into why it works.
The people who can't say they're not okay
One of the most striking conversations in this episode: there are certain people — certain roles, certain personalities — who simply cannot admit they're struggling. So how do you support someone who won't ask for help?
Compassion fatigue
It's especially common in caring professions, but it can hit anyone. Leanne explains what it is, how it differs from traditional trauma, and why it's often missed.
There are no superheroes
The most important takeaway of all. Everyone struggles at some point. The goal isn't to be invincible — it's to normalise the fact that not feeling okay really is okay.
Resources
- BBC guide to mental health: bbc.co.uk/safety/health/mental-health
- RSPCA: rspca.org.uk/home
- Why These 7 Leadership Books Require Your Attention: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/the-7-books-leaders-should-be-reading_1999
- All past episodes: truthliesandwork.com
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. When I joined the RSPCA, um, all of our inspectorate staff, um, there was a requirement to, um, carry a firearm. But actually, the need for everybody to carry a firearm wasn't really there, but there was a contractual requirement for everybody to do so. The problem we had then is that, of course, anybody with a mental health issue then has a problem getting a home office licence.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYeah, and, um, everyone get the violins out because poor Leanne's not well again. You've got a bit of a cold, haven't you, love?
Leanne ElliottI do have a bit of a cold. Um, it's really frustrating. I honestly went about almost 3 years without being ill at all, and then 2023, it's like every couple of months I've got a cold or a sickness bug or something. I'm, I'm pretty miserable about it. So apologies if you're watching on YouTube. I'm sorry about this, but this is as good as it's gonna get. Today. Al assures me he's going to do some trickery with color correction in post, but, um, yeah, there you go. I'm not looking my best. For those on audio, again, I apologize. I probably sound a bit bunged up.
Al ElliottAnd, and what usually happens is that I get whatever Leanne's got about 4 days later. So tomorrow I'm expecting to wake up feeling pretty rotten. But anyway, we're soldiering on for you, listener.
Leanne ElliottWe are.
Al ElliottBecause we care about you. We love you. We want to come around and make you cake. No, that's a bit weird, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottI mean, we can make you cake if you want a cake. I make a mean lemon drizzle.
Al ElliottShe does, she does. It is very, very good. Anyway, you didn't come here to listen to us talk about lemon drizzle.
Leanne ElliottYeah, before we crack on with the episode, I would like to tell you about an awesome campaign that our friends at Perks are kicking off in December. Perks is run by Stella Smith, who has been on the podcast before. Uh, I think she was actually the first person to appear on our Founder Series.
Al ElliottShe was.
Leanne ElliottGreat episode, go and listen to that. We'll leave a link, all that jazz. So yeah, I received a very timely message from Aggie on the Perks team and just thought it was brilliant. So I enthusiastically emailed her back and was like, we're getting involved. Um, and thankfully she was very happy that, that we did want to get involved. And I'll be honest, Al, it is right up your street too.
Al ElliottNice.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and also actually very, very much aligned with this episode, which is on trauma in the workplace, um, and also the rest of the content we'll be bringing you this month. So yes, Perks, they are on a mission to make help a conversation and create a community that thrives on support. They have a vision of creating a community who proudly signpost themselves as allies, ready and willing to lend a helping hand to to those who need it, whether it's someone needing work experience to start a new career or just a neighbor needing an extra hand with the shopping. So we are teaming up with Perks in December to spread the message that asking for help is an absolute power move. Now you may think that sounds counterintuitive, and you know what, the research agrees. There is recent research in the Journal of Child Development showing that children as young as 7 years old will avoid— will People avoid asking for help in order to not feel or appear incompetent. This feeling of incompetence, or maybe embarrassment or shame, is often why people don't ask for help even when they need it most. And the funny thing is, on the other side of it, being asked to help gives us a rush of endorphins. It's this helper's high that can play a really important role in actually building our own wellbeing, our own psychological capital, so our sense of hope and optimism and confidence in our abilities, and in turn resilience. How do you feel about that? Helping others really is good for everyone. So stay tuned to all the awesome activities Perks will be promoting in December through the hashtag #K2Help, including a series of online webinars, which is quite cool. They'll be doing them throughout December. They'll have topics such as how to do a forecast for beginners, how to handle HR as an SME, and we'll also be resharing our recent webinars on burnout and wellbeing at work. So stay tuned. Thank you, Perks, for asking us to be involved. I think it's A pretty awesome initiative, actually.
Al ElliottYeah, Perks is a fantastic company. We pay for it, um, we use it. Um, it's— I, I woke up about, about 6 months ago with like a really bad, um, neck ache thing, and I didn't know what it was, didn't know why, why it appeared. But, um, went on Perks app, some great exercises, followed them, was right as rain within a couple of days. So, uh, it is definitely, definitely worth it. And also, just a quick one, if you are looking for a GP appointment in the UK, Pay your £6 a month. I think it's £6 a month or something. It's not a lot. Pay that, top of the queue. Anyway, so back to the subject, which again is tangentially— tangent— tangential? That doesn't sound right. It's slightly—
Leanne ElliottCan we say genitals on the podcast?
Al ElliottWe just did, I think. So we're gonna be talking about workplace trauma today. Now, when we think of trauma, we tend to think of like frontline workers, like maybe the police or ambulance or you know, armed forces or something like that. But there's a lot of jobs that actually do involve a fair amount of trauma.
Leanne ElliottYeah, there really is. I think the pandemic really brought this to the fore. You know, we saw the effect of the pandemic on, um, key workers, on NHS staff, on teachers. But let's not forget that during the pandemic, there were people in supermarkets or delivering packages or emptying your bins who were still putting their health and sometimes their lives on the line to keep the world turning. Thankfully, we seem to some kind of normality in terms of COVID risk, although I know it is still out there and still causing problems. But the pandemic has made us all much more aware that trauma exists in the workplace.
Al ElliottYeah, so today we're gonna be talking about 3 things. We're talking about, first of all, what is workplace trauma? Then we're gonna say, what are the signs that there might be workplace trauma in your workplace? And then finally, we're looking a little bit more into how you mitigate the risk of workplace trauma or traumatized employees. And we have, of course, as always, my wife, my co-host.
Leanne ElliottThat's me.
Al ElliottThe most amazing business psychologist in the world.
Leanne ElliottYou heard it here first.
Al ElliottUm, and she's highly experienced in all of this. Um, and so we'll be asking her for her opinions. Should we— she, she can't help but just butt in at some point to tell us what's going on, but she's gonna be explaining everything. But we also invited a couple of guests.
Leanne ElliottYes, we did. Yes, we did. Before we meet them, I'd like to just go back to our earlier point and make one thing really clear. Workplace trauma is much more common than you might think. If your business has customers, then your employees are operating in an environment where they are at risk of trauma. We don't have the time in this episode to dive into the nuances of trauma, how it's categorized, whether it be severe or otherwise, though it would actually make a pretty interesting episode. So instead, instead for this one, I'd like you to maybe consider we've got trauma with a capital T and trauma with a lowercase So if you are a business leader that isn't really sure about how trauma could impact your workplace, I'd like to think about trauma with this in mind: this lowercase t. If you have employees working direct with customers, understanding and effectively managing workplace trauma is critical to nurture and protect employee well-being. The risk of trauma needs to be a key consideration for the vast, vast majority of business leaders. We will talk about that more shortly, but first let's. meet our guests. So today we're joined by the amazing Dr. Claire Fernandes, the Chief Medical Officer of the BBC, who'll be talking about the traumatic things that the BBC have to cover, and also the marvelous Jeremy Gentry-Jones, the Assistant Director of Employee Experience at the RSPCA. My name's Claire Fernandes, um, known within the BBC as Dr. Claire, but Claire's absolutely fine. Um, as you've said, I'm the Chief Medical Officer at the BBC I'm a practising occupational physician, so medical doctor as well. And so what I do within the BBC is I'm the head of the health team and in charge of strategy, governance, and promotion of health and wellbeing within the BBC.
Al ElliottMy name is Jeremy Gaultier-Jones. I'm the Assistant Director Employee Experience at the RSPCA. I've been with the RSPCA for 3 years, and what I'm famous for, probably within the RSPCA, is leading our quite flexible hybrid working strategy. So let's start with what constitutes trauma in the workplace.
Leanne ElliottTrauma at work can manifest in various forms, including acute trauma from a single incident like a workplace accident or violence, chronic trauma from ongoing stresses like harassment or a high-pressure environment, and vicarious trauma from exposure to distressing situations or stories, which is very common in caregiving or law enforcement roles, for example. Causes range from organisational issues like poor management, lack of support, and toxic workplace cultures to specific events like workplace bullying, discrimination, or witnessing traumatic events. It's important to understand that trauma is not only about the events themselves, but also how individuals perceive that trauma and how they are affected by these events.
Al ElliottAs Leanne said, there's lots of different types of trauma. For example, in 2019, this is a study from the States, I think, Workplace violence accounted for 9% of all fatal work injuries. In 2020, there were 392 workplace murders and an amazing 37,000 non-fatal injuries resulting from intentional injury by another person in that workplace. Now, I'm sure we've all seen those videos on TikTok, YouTube, whatever your platform of choice is, where someone kicks off in a McDonald's or whatever. But what about those people who have a job that puts themselves directly in harm's way. The BBC in the UK certainly, but I think around the world, is a trusted source of news, and often the news is pretty upsetting. So it's pretty reasonable to assume that the journalists covering these events are going to experience some kind of workplace trauma. But as Dr. Clare explains, it's not just the journalists who experience this.
Leanne ElliottSo when I think of the BBC, I think about, um, You know, the guy on the telly reading the news, or the girl, or them. And we don't often think about the people, say, that might be editing the footage that they spent 3 years to get on, I don't know, the African ant, black-spotted ant. I don't think that's a real thing. Or we don't think about the people that are the producers or the people behind CBeebies or Children in Need. We don't think about my colleagues in Nepal, perhaps, that are bringing in information from that part of the world. Who might be the cleaner of the office there. It's a huge spectrum of people, and because we know, well, a good wellbeing strategy is not a one-size-fits-all. This sort of theme is something that I get asked about a lot, and so the first thing I want to say is that what the BBC does is more than just the people going running towards the traumatic situations while everyone else is running away. We are also people making content for online, for example, which is really popular during COVID to natural history programs where you see our beloved David Attenborough in different places, but also, um, to how those things all run in the background. So all the tech behind it, all the people administration. So whilst the journalists tend to be the employees that people focus on when they're talking to me the most, there's a whole heap of other people that are just as important that are behind the camera, the hidden talent, if you like. But going back to your question, so how do we support, um, our employees that are facing trauma? So it's actually quite a large question because going back to what I said about how many people and whom we have within the BBC, we have people facing primary trauma. So actually being involved in the traumatic events, for example, our staff sadly in regions of conflict, for example, or natural disaster.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut within— we then have journalists that are going towards the places that people are pulling away from. But then we also have our teams back within different countries, within the UK, that are editing that footage, that are making those programs, that are archiving that footage, that are, you know, human resources, for example, that are listening to the stories of our employees when they come back if there's challenges. There's lots of different people that are involved in that traumatic So that's where Dr.
Al ElliottClare comes in. And I would just want to be clear, what is the difference between what Clare does and what, say, a GP does? So I asked exactly that question.
Leanne ElliottSo a doctor is somebody that diagnoses and treats people or patients. There's lots of different specialties, from your neurosurgeon to your heart surgeon to your GP to your sexual health doctor. So my specialty is occupational medicine, so the medicine of workers. So I'm a consultant, so I'm a specialist accredited doctor, and like, you know, you know, kind of the top-level doctor within the, within the NHS, I'm pretty privileged to say. And, um, I look at, um, how we keep workers healthy and safe, basically, in a nutshell. So that might be from working within occupational health department, where we, um, follow various legal protocols.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottand work with employers to help advise on medical health conditions, help managers to manage people in light of the conditions that they have. Um, but I do it in a non-clinical way within the BBC, so I do not see patients within the BBC. I work to use my medical knowledge to help the organisation to decide how they manage health and wellbeing. Regular listeners will know that we are huge dog lovers here at Truth and Lies. In fact, Peanut, our little rescue Podenco, is sitting next to us while we record. Um, he— yeah, he sometimes causes trouble, but usually he's actually pretty good. The RSPCA is an organization in the UK that protects animals and prevents cruelty, but this means that inspectors there have to see some pretty awful things. Jeremy is in charge of employee experience at the RSPCA, and he explained that the job can be tough.
Al ElliottOne of the challenges we have is that, I mean, a lot of our staff are frontline. They're working out and about in animal centres, in our Spectrum, and it's about identifying areas that we can support them in their wellbeing. They do very stressful jobs, see some really not very nice stuff sometimes around animals. And of course, people that are passionate about animals, when you're seeing animals that have been neglected, can be really hard. So supporting them is really important. Looking at ways that we can provide flexibility around them in terms of future rosters, roster designs, and how they work is important as well. Um, but you know, one of the things we've done recently, uh, is we've introduced TRIM, Trauma Resource Management, which actually supports people who come across traumatic events in their workplace, and it helps them talk about those issues with a peer and prevents a spiraling decline in their mental health. Now, Jeremy just used a term, TRIM, that I'd never heard of. This is the first time I'd heard of it. So I said— I asked him to explain a little bit more about what TRIM was and what it does. Um, we didn't design it. It's something that, that exists, uh, in the emergency services and was, uh, in the military as well. Um, and we've taken that idea and brought it into the organization, and it's really popular and working well. It is aimed around people witnessing traumatic events, so I mean, depending, you know, so there are lots of different jobs that that potentially could apply to. Um, so yes, I mean, we would encourage any employer, um, who has staff that could witness such events, um, to actually look into TRIM.
Leanne ElliottYeah, TRIM, or Trauma Risk Management, it's a really interesting framework, and it's basically a way to help staff when they've been through something really tough or traumatic at work. The idea is that after a disturbing event, people might struggle with their mental health, maybe even develop a serious condition like PTSD. TRIM is what organizations like the police use to try and reduce those risks. The program was created in the armed forces by Captain Pete Roberts and Major Norman Jones, and it specifically talks about survivors, not victims. One interesting thing about TRIM is that it recognizes that everyone reacts differently to stress. So while the program is there to help, it also puts some responsibility on the individual to speak up and ask for help if they need it, especially if they're feeling stressed. So basically, it's a support system for people who've seen or experienced something pretty unpleasant at work.
Al ElliottUnsurprisingly, the BBC also uses TRIM.
Leanne ElliottIt's not just me. I have a team of health, um, health and mental health experts. Um, we work with, um, employees, teams, managers, HR, to try and reduce those impacts. So, for example, to allow people to look after themselves when they're working in these environments— shift length, support, check-in days. And then we also have a network of peer support which is called TRIM, which is one of a number of other support networks. Other support networks are available. So TRIM, our practitioners, my colleagues, are there to help triage people that have symptoms and signpost them to the right places and provide that health promotion to keep people well. So those who are suffering get signposted to people like myself, to clinicians, to psychologists, and to get the support that they need. But also then that health promotion again around keeping yourself healthy, keeping yourself well, things to do for those that don't need that support that are struggling. Because even if you don't have— and that sounds quite trite, doesn't it— even if you don't have the mental health problems that come with facing trauma, it's still a horrible thing to do. It's not a— it's not a walk in the park. It's not unicorns and rainbows. So that, in a nutshell, is how we do trauma within the BBC. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals. Seamless.
Al ElliottSeamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear. want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottSo it's all about normalizing that not feeling okay really is okay. We can't reduce the, um, the exposure. Those things are happening. We as the audience need to be seeing those things that we can learn and understand. So what we do is, um, we try and prepare people well to start off with. So information, education, and training on How to look after yourself, recognizing those negative impacts that can occur, reducing the stigma of putting your hand up and saying, I'm not okay. Because of course, everybody, you know, it's competitive environment, everybody wants to get their next story. And we do that also behind the scenes too, thinking about secondary trauma, vicarious trauma. For people that are out there looking at the scenes, but also people that are hearing the footage, editing, And producing shows, archiving. Again, what vicarious trauma is, so the negative mental health impact on people by having that secondhand exposure, what it is, how it can affect you, the fact that sometimes these things are normal in the human spectrum of emotion, but what to do if you're not okay, where to go for help.
Al ElliottWhat I'd really not thought about before was that There are certain people who can't say that they're not okay. Some of the inspectors who go out have to carry firearms, which makes sense because they have to deal with tough situations. And unfortunately, sometimes, you know, with animals, things can go wrong. But in the past, these people who carried firearms found it very difficult to say that they were going through something difficult. When I joined the RSPCA, all of our inspectorate staff, there was a requirement to carry a firearm. But actually, the need for everybody to carry a firearm wasn't really there, but there was a contractual requirement for everybody to do so. The problem we had then is that, of course, anybody with a mental health issue then has a problem getting a Home Office license. So that therefore meant we were then dismissing staff for mental health issues. Now you can imagine the sort of culture that creates when encouraging people to talk about mental health these days, and yet if someone talks about mental health issues, then of course suddenly the spotlight can be turned to them and they then wonder whether they're going to could be able to continue in that, in that role. We changed that. We could see the— there was more danger for us as an organisation with people not talking about mental health issues. So we identified the need that only a certain number of people needed to carry firearms, and therefore it then hopefully removed the stigma around talking about mental health issues.
Leanne ElliottThere is another side to trauma, and especially common in jobs like carers. It's called compassion fatigue, and RSPCA workers and partners like vets are really aware of it.
Al ElliottI mean, TRIM, as I talked about, helps people with traumatic events, but one of the other things we've identified is, is compassion fatigue. People who are constantly looking after animals, animals that are really distressed, and maybe putting them down, It can be really hard on a person's psyche, and compassion fatigue is an area which not a lot has been known about until the last few years. And actually, we're learning from other colleagues in the veterinary profession around that, about how we can support our staff. So, you know, we do recognise, for example, that the veterinary profession has the highest suicide rate in the UK, and we're keen to ensure that we learn from what other organizations are doing around that, and we're looking at what we can do around compassion fatigue for our staff. If you've listened to the podcast before, you've probably heard us talk about the Samaritans, which is an organization in the UK which is designed to listen to people who are in distress or despair. So it's anonymously, you can ring up and you can basically say that whatever you like. You can talk about death, suicidal feelings, or just if you've had a really rotten day. Now, What's interesting is that when we were there, we discovered, or we saw, that there are certain people who found it very difficult to leave things at work, who were— who just— who just took home all the things they'd heard. Now, what the Samaritans are really good at is something called, which I call dogfooding, is something I think is a term where you eat your own dog food. The idea is that you basically use your own system. Um, so each volunteer has someone in the Samaritans that they can talk to, basically like they can have a Samaritan's call. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it was a really great structure. So we'd also have shift supervisors who would check in at the end of every shift and see if there had been a traumatic call. And if there had been, if you had a call with somebody whose life was pretty terrible, and perhaps you've listened to them for 30, 40 minutes, and in many cases just talking about it has made the caller feel a little bit better, but that story is still in the Samaritan's head. So after each shift, if a volunteer did have a pretty traumatic experience, Then another Samaritan would call them up and encourage them to talk about it. We called them the Samaritan Sam. In most cases, that would help massively. Of course, we couldn't discuss specifics or reveal identifying information, but it did mean we were much less likely to keep it in our heads, or worse, talk about it to somebody outside of Samaritans. Confidentiality is the golden rule. And that's how it worked at Samaritans— a pretty good system, and one that I definitely benefited Yeah.
Al ElliottAnd as part of the Samaritans, I volunteered to work in the prisons, uh, the jail if you're from the, if you're from the States. Um, and you might think that would be like one of the most traumatic places that you could work, but actually it was kind of not because in the prisons in the UK, there's usually volunteers themselves who are like Samaritans in the prison. They call them listeners. Um, and it's really interesting because what'll happen is then You've got volunteers within the prison who will be a Samaritan to someone. And as you know, you know, suicide rates and self-harm rates in prisons are massively high. Um, and so they would talk to people, and— but then they don't have anyone to, to, to talk to back. You know, this idea of dogfooding where you go up the chain and you kind of like pass the, the story on to someone else. So that's our— that was our job. So as Samaritan volunteers, we'd go into the prison and 99% of the time we'd be talking to the listeners. And they'd be telling us the stories that they'd heard to kind of get them off their chest. So there's this idea of kind of diluting this trauma in that if someone in the prison, for example, has gone through something really traumatic and listened to a really traumatic story from some— from a, an inmate, a co-inmate, then they have that in their head. But then when they talk to us who are one step removed from it, that trauma is much more diluted when it comes to us. But the person who's heard the original story has had the chance to talk about it. And that's probably a really good way to approach these things. So if you do have someone in your workplace who is experiencing some trauma, just having someone sit there and listen to them and just using the Samaritan's technique for going, how did that feel? And did you get angry? Kind of those kind of questions and just shutting up and listening allows that person who's experienced the trauma to kind of almost like push it up the chain and then Hopefully it makes the trauma a little bit better or a little bit easier to manage. Now you couple this with clear job roles and also allowing people to speak up when they are struggling and implementing things like flexible working and all the other stuff that really makes a great workplace, and you end up having a huge impact on the wellbeing of your teams, as Jeremy found out at the RSPCA. Right, pre to COVID, we had a pretty poor wellbeing score with our staff and we've just conducted a MyView survey. It's an engagement survey, and we've seen a huge rise in the score around wellbeing, especially around our staff who have been working in a hybrid manner. We're continuously engaging with them about how it's going, how they feel, and also how managers are managing in this particular new world. But the evidence so far is that huge 20% engagement score we've seen. Uh, since, uh, 2019.
Leanne ElliottThe most important thing I think to take from this is that there are no superheroes. Everyone struggles at some point, and in fact, if someone in your workplace does appear to be superhuman, then maybe you need to keep a very close eye on them. Not being able to admit you're not okay is one of the major symptoms of impending burnout. There are no superheroes. We will all have problems. Except maybe the Blue Peter dog. We all have the same problems, so there isn't a difference in my mind. And to be honest, I think that's why I do what I do, because everybody's, everybody's important, whether you see them on the TV, whether you, you know, um, listen to them on a podcast. People here I'm starstruck by— Dame Carol Black, legendary. Um, as, as legendary to me as some of the people that I have the privilege of working with within the BBC. Um, just as a name check, my favorite, the most favorite celebrity I've met was a Blue Peter dog. He's gorgeous. He's so gorgeous. So yeah, everyone's the same. We're all the same. We're different, but we're the same.
Al ElliottSo there you go. Hopefully we've covered workplace trauma. We have explained what it is. Um, how it manifests, and then the ways in which you can potentially, uh, sort of mitigate it and potentially deal with it. Um, I would encourage you to think about your people, and I would encourage you to think, are they okay? And if they're not, can they put their hand up and say, I'm not okay?
Leanne ElliottAnd this is where I think as well, it's really important that leaders think about the hidden trauma. If your job is to collect overdue invoices or deal with customer complaints, then that can be traumatic. And in fact, this is a significant area of research in psychological and behavioral science. To give you a very brief overview, emotional labor— it's a term used to describe the process where employees have to manage and sometimes manipulate their emotional expressions as part of their job. Customer service is a perfect example of this. So customer service officers are often required to display specific emotions like cheerfulness or empathy regardless of how they're genuinely feeling. So this act of portraying emotions that might not align with their true feelings leads to what's called emotional dissonance, and it's this gap— it's a gap between felt and displayed emotions that can be really taxing. Why does this matter? Well, consistently having to suppress or alter genuine emotions for work can significantly have an impact on employees' mental health. It's linked to increased stress, burnout, even physical health issues. And this emotional dissonance can also create a sense of inauthenticity and personal conflict, and that directly affects job satisfaction and overall well-being. It's not all doom and gloom though. Coping strategies like deep acting, where employees try to align their genuine emotions with those that they need to display, can help. And also organizational support is key, as we've heard. Workplaces that recognize these challenges and provide a supportive environment, proper training, mental health resources, and regular breaks can mitigate these negative effects. So for those in customer service, it's not just about handling the customer's needs but also navigating their own emotional landscape in a way that's healthy and sustainable. And there are so many other examples of job roles where the same can happen. Understanding the nuances of emotional labor and dissonance is really vital for employee well-being and performance. As Dr. Clare just said, it's not just people at the front line who experience trauma. Every job has a potential to be traumatic, and TRIM is all about how you react to it. Everyone is different, but we're all the same underneath.
Al ElliottSo there we have it. That's a wrap on another episode. Next This week we've got— I teased it last week— and we've got the amazing Chris Savage. Such, such a business crush on this guy. He's so incredible. Um, and, uh, he started a company called Wistia. Yes, you've probably heard of it. Yes, that Wistia. Him and his co-founders continue to bring— to build this amazing workplace culture. And you can see it all over Twitter, you can see it all over YouTube. And as you can imagine, it's documented perfectly in video. And I'm guessing the video is hosted on Wistia itself, which is The best place to host your video. I'm not being paid to say that. Anyway, so that's what's coming next week. Leah, do you have anything else to add before we say goodbye?
Leanne ElliottNo, not really, apart from be sure to follow us on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on the TikTok, on Twitter, um, for all the updates, for videos of our guest interviews. If you're not watching the, uh, the podcast on YouTube, then it might be a nice way to dip your, dip your toe into the video format. And Of course, go and follow Perks, um, and hear more about the campaign they're running in December. It really is— I hope we've underlined this at this point in the episode— asking for help really is a power move. We will see you next week.
Al ElliottWe'll see you next week. And just before we do go, if you are, if you are struggling with trauma, if you do have a pretty tough work and you are in the UK, then seriously look up the Samaritans. It's totally anonymous. service. We're not involved anymore. Um, we wish we were, but we don't live in the same country, so we can't. Um, and, uh, they're definitely worth a chat because they will just listen to you non-judgmentally, and they're an amazing organization.
Leanne ElliottThey are. And actually, if you're not in the UK, they do have an email service as well, so drop them an email.
Al ElliottAnd I'm pretty sure there's a similar thing in most countries, so don't suffer alone. Right, we will see you next week.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye.
Al ElliottUnsurprisingly, trim is also used by the BB—
Leanne Elliottwith a lower T, and it's especially common— oh no, this isn't my bit, sorry.
Al ElliottIt allows them— they're not so close. I'm gonna do all that again. Fuck that.
Leanne ElliottIt's good.
Al ElliottSo there we have it. That is yet another ep—