Episode 117 · 23 July 2024 · 57:49
What to do if you hate your job, with Louise Kershaw
Featuring Louise Kershaw
What to do if you hate your job, with Louise Kershaw
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Intro: Why Millennials Are at a Career Crossroads
Louise's Work and the 'Is This It?' Moment
interview#career-coaching#millennial-women#career-satisfaction
Knowing If You Need a Career Change or a Small Tweak
What to Do When You Have Zero Wiggle Room
Al and Leanne's Own 'Is This It?' Moments
Mindset, Imposter Syndrome and Self-Limiting Beliefs
Planning and Gathering Data for a Career Transition
How Gen Z Approach Work Differently
Millennials vs Gen Z on Feedback
interview#feedback#millennials#gen-z
The Psychology of Generational Differences
Louise's Client Story — From AI to the Arts
interview#client-story#ai#career-change
Louise's Journey from HR to Coaching
interview#hr#career-change#coaching
Where to Find Louise and Wrap-Up
Show notes
What to Do If You Hate Your Job — with Louise Kershaw
Guest: Louise Kershaw — career coach for millennial women, psychology-trained, former Talent Manager at Lloyds Bank and HSBC.
Millennials are hitting a crossroads. They studied hard, got the job, climbed the ladder — and now they're waking up asking, "Is this it?"
Louise joins Al and Leanne to unpack why so many Millennials feel stuck, the difference between a tweak and a total overhaul, and how to figure out what's actually missing before you throw the whole career away. She shares her personal journey from 15 years in corporate HR to career coaching — including the moment a colleague collapsed at his desk and couldn't get a hospital bed — and why "life's short" is both a cliché and a genuine catalyst for change.
They also dig into imposter syndrome, self-limiting beliefs, the "saboteur" mindset, and how Gen Z's approach to feedback and boundaries differs from Millennials.
Top 3 Takeaways
Career change doesn't have to be radical. A small tweak or pivot within your current role can often reignite fulfilment — don't predetermine that a big overhaul is the only answer.
Your emotions are not true. Imposter syndrome and self-limiting beliefs are saboteurs. Give them a character and a nickname so you can spot them when they show up — especially before big moments like presentations.
Gather data before you leap. Get curious, run experiments, and test what lights you up before making a big career decision. There's nothing like a concrete plan to reduce the fear of transition.
More From Louise Kershaw
- Website: claritycoachingwithlouise.com
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/claritycoachingwithlouise
- Instagram: @claritycoaching_withlouise
Career guides & services from Louise:
- What to Do If You Hate Your Job (FREE!): claritycoachingwithlouise.com/whattodoifyouhateyourjob
- Career Burnout: Essential Survival Handbook: claritycoachingwithlouise.com/burnoutsurvivalhandbook
- Louise's Signature Coaching Programme: claritycoachingwithlouise.com/career-clarity-success-programme
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Book: The Regrets of the Dying by Bronnie Ware
- Podcast: How to Fail by Elizabeth Day
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist that specialises in workplace culture.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm neither chartered nor educated, but I have studied some business and I specialise in growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottAnd we're here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottIf you're a, if you're a medium-term listener, if you listen the last few weeks, you'll realise I've been struggling over our intro. Not sure if that's better or worse. We'll work on it.
Leanne ElliottBit more wordy.
Al ElliottLittle more wordy. Yeah, Leanne went and ruined it all by becoming chartered. If you don't know what that is, look it up or go back to episode, I think it's about 112, where we explain what chartered Um, psychologists do. They're big and fancy. Anyway, Lee, I think what we're going to talk about today is just quickly remind everyone that July is all about interview and guest stories. In August, which is next week— I'm looking forward to that, not doing 2 episodes a week— we're just going to be doing 1 episode a week to give you a break from us and us a break from you, even though we love you. Uh, but give us a break in August. It'll be the more lighthearted format, you know, this, this week in work, the ones we used to do on a Tuesday. So every Tuesday in August, we're gonna be chatting about the latest news around workplace culture, the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne, and usually Leanne's got some kind of surprise segment in the middle.
Leanne ElliottYes, we did pick a good time to have a little break from the news roundup. Not much going on in the world the last few weeks. Hopefully it'll pick up in August.
Al ElliottYeah, I heard there was a surprise resignation somewhere in America, but I didn't catch who it was.
Leanne ElliottLet's not get into that, shall we?
Al ElliottLet's just—
Leanne ElliottIt's just as well. It's just as well we're not talking about, about the news at the minute.
Al ElliottYes, absolutely. So just, just a quick shout out to, um, a guy who I follow on LinkedIn. I don't think he even knows who I am, but I think he's a cool guy. Dan, I'm sorry, I don't know how to say your surname. I've seen written it down, but I think it's Dan Sondergran, um, and he's a big guy in workplace culture. Um, and he was the guy who— oh, if you're on YouTube, you'll notice that one of our, one of our lights just run out of battery. There you go. That's gonna be a continuity nightmare, isn't it? We've just discovered. And anyway, so poor Dan was doing a piece to, uh, to camera for BBC when he was faded down and the breaking news came in. So Dan, if you're listening—
Leanne ElliottWhich break? Which bit? Which one?
Al ElliottWhich one?
Leanne ElliottBreaking news.
Al ElliottOh, uh, Biden.
Leanne ElliottAh, oh, oh, yeah, sorry, Dan.
Al ElliottLeah, we are talking interviews. Who have we got today?
Leanne ElliottI'm really looking forward to this one today, really, really looking forward to it, and I'll tell you why in a moment. Um, but I want to start by telling you that I am what is called a geriatric millennial, and whilst I'm not happy with the term, I, I accept that I am an old millennial. Uh, what it basically means is that I was born in the early 1980s, which makes me at the top edge of the millennial bracket. Our guest today is an expert in helping millennials, even old ones like me, really question their career choices so far, and if necessary, navigate career transitions. As we'll find out, something very unique has happened to millennials in work, and this has led to a significant number of us lifting our heads in our 30s and asking devastatingly important question: is this it?
Al ElliottI'm Gen X, so I am approaching 50 years old now. Oh my God, I'm approaching 50 years old now, and I remember in my 30s going, oh, Is this it? And I wasn't even— I'm not even a millennial. Yes, our guest today is a millennial from the UK who had a fancy job in HR as talent manager for Lloyds Bank and then HSBC. It seemed like she'd built herself the perfect career path, and many of her friends and family believed she was destined for the top. But something happened that changed everything, and in 2023, she left her comfy HR job. I'm not sure she's gonna like me describing it as comfy. It's had a bit special.
Leanne ElliottIs any HR job comfy?
Al ElliottI don't know. But anyway, so I'm gonna— I stand by what I said and set up shop helping millennials just like herself unlock their potential and unstick their careers. Our guest today is the calm and collected career coach Louise Kershaw. Maybe you haven't been happy at work for some time. Maybe something just feels off or out of alignment. Perhaps you dread going to work each morning, or maybe you just know that you have potential for more but don't really know what that might look like. If any of that resonates with you, listener, then this is the only woman you need. to talk to. Leanne interviewed Louise a few weeks ago, and I think it's genuinely one of the most important conversations millennials need to hear. So let's join the interview with Louise Kershaw and find out why millennials need career coaching more than ever.
Louise KershawI'm Louise Kershaw. I'm a career coach for millennial women. What I'm most famous for is helping people get unstuck from jobs that are draining them.
Leanne ElliottI love that, and it's a question we get asked a lot in terms of career fulfillment. I want to start with With the millennials, you said, you know, you're, you're a coach for millennial women. What are some of the career trends that you've seen in terms of, of millennials?
Louise KershawWhat I'm seeing most is millennials are coming to a bit of a crossroads. You know, they tend to have studied something at uni, maybe weren't sure what they wanted to do. A lot of people fell into a line of work. Perhaps it was planned, or perhaps it wasn't very strategic. But either way, what's happening now is it's 10, 15 years have gone by. They're looking around and they're thinking, wait, is this it? Do I even like this? And is this what I want to do forever? And usually that's a no. And so it's this question of, well, what else would I do? And that's when they can feel stuck and quite overwhelmed. And coupled with that is this pressure. There's a kind of external validation piece that can lead to eventual burnout, what I would summarize as the high achiever success trap.
Al ElliottYeah.
Louise KershawSo millennials, for the most part, we weren't raised with what's now quite a common discussion around boundaries. Self-care wasn't really a thing. We didn't have language around toxic workplaces or gaslighting. These weren't part of the vernacular. It was about trying hard, doing well. And there was also quite a specific type of millennial that was raised in homes where they were rewarded for doing really well, getting good grades. It was all about external achievements. Yeah. And that gets wrapped up in your self-worth, validation given to you by others. So the way this is now manifesting in the workplace for a lot of us is we have a bunch of high-achieving, right, people-pleasing millennials with perfectionistic tendencies in their kind of mid to late 30s. They're working themselves into the ground because to not do so is fundamentally scary. It's quite threatening to their self-image and to how they've been socialized. We were certainly told that by our parents, right, growing up, that this is what you do. So, we internalized perhaps a script, a narrative about how careers would go. And then, as we got into work, we found that that wasn't necessarily the case. We started talking more about the lattice career. We started talking more about sideways moves. And now we talk about squiggly careers, right, where it's not about one upward trajectory. It's about Even going backwards, going sideways, taking secondments, taking career breaks, really quite varied. So, the lattice-based career, as opposed to the kind of standard linear upward career, the lattice-based, if you think of like a mesh, you can go in any direction. So, you might say, oh gosh, I want to retrain in this department, so I'm going to take one role down from the level that I'm at now. So, I'm going to go across, but I'm going to go down. And then I might go 2 sideways moves in that division, and then I'll go up 2 levels. So, it's sort of like you're playing a game of Tetris, and you're moving around in that way. And that's become much more normalized in the past 10 years than it was when we were perhaps entering the workforce.
Leanne ElliottYou said, millennials are waking up now and going, is this it? I have felt like that. And it is a big question, is this it? If somebody is waking up like that, I mean, what What do they do? And what are some of maybe the mistakes that people make in responding to that sense of, oh, I guess that's just that big question.
Louise KershawAnd it's a big question, right? It can be quite existential for people. People are still trying to find the thing that lights them up, and they feel like they've done something wrong to not have it figured out yet. So, first thing I'd say is you haven't done anything wrong if this is how you're feeling, and you have so much time. to explore alternative paths. People are shifting into different types of careers well into their 60s. You are not beholden to the career that you're in, in your 30s and 40s. But yeah, you mentioned some core mistakes, and there are some key mistakes I see people making. One of the most prominent ones, perhaps, is they're waiting to feel ready. And this is such a mistake because the truth is, You're not going to feel ready ever to do something different. That feeling is not forthcoming because our brains are prediction machines. They love certainty. They hate instability and risk. And so whenever we contemplate doing something different, your brain just sends you this warning, this warning alarm that this is risky. But our brains are also quite lazy in terms of our evolutionary biology. They just want to quickly scan for threat. So even if something is potentially risky, Or it's just a bit vague, your brain's going to go, I'm not going to do a detailed analysis on this. I don't know what it is. I don't like it. Here's some fear. And it's just going to send you a load of what-if thoughts, because your scared lizard brain doesn't want you to do anything where it doesn't know what the outcome's going to be. So you're not going to feel ready. You don't need to feel ready in order to do the thing. Confidence will come from doing it. People think confidence is a prerequisite, but no, that's a mistake. It's something that will result from taking your first step and just trying. All you need in order to take that first step is just some courage and to break it down into a simple baby step.
Leanne ElliottHow do people know if it's a career change that they need? So they might be waking up and thinking, is this it? But how do they know? Is it, is it because I'm not fulfilled in my work? Is it my relationship? Is it my family? Is it where I live? How do people distinguish that? You know, that drive for something more and, and recognize that, yes, it is my career that needs to change.
Louise KershawWork-life balance, these sorts of terms don't even fit us anymore because really it's just one, one experience of life, right? It blends so much into each other. And especially now that a lot of people work remotely, those boundaries have never been more blurred. A great way to think about this is, what is it that you feel is draining your energy? There's an exercise you can do where you might write on a piece of paper 2 columns, one things that gave me energy, and one things that drained my energy, and just list out Monday to Friday. At the end of each day, just spend no more than a minute or 2 minutes writing out the things that you did that day that gave you energy, and the things that you did that day that drained your energy. You might give yourself a score out of 10.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Louise KershawFor how much it did those things. Just do it quickly. Don't spend too much time thinking about it. But at the end of the week, reflect on it. You know, you've got your work in there, you've got your personal life in there as well. What are the things that are jumping out at you and shouting the loudest as, oh, this is a thing that I'm doing every single day and it's draining my energy? And then get curious about that. What are the circumstances? that are leading to that. So it might be, I've got the highest rate of energy drain on Tuesdays. What's happening on Tuesdays? Well, I'm having this core meeting with this customer. Okay, so what is it about that that's so draining? Is it the customer itself? Is it the stakeholder you don't like? Is it that that project is working with this set of colleagues and this team? Is it that on Tuesdays you have to travel? So get curious about what it is that you think is sits behind it. And that can just be a really quick and simple exercise you can do to reflect on what are the pockets that are giving me energy and draining my energy. And that might be a helpful way to distinguish it.
Leanne ElliottSo will that also help then in terms of, of maybe looking at if, you know, the energy drains in my job, it's actually working with that manager and that customer rather than the day-to-day general tasks of my job? Couldn't then say maybe don't need a complete career transition, you just maybe need to move to a new organisation.
Louise KershawYes, exactly. So, career change doesn't have to be a radical transformation. It can be a very small tweak or pivot. And that can mean perhaps you're doing the right type of line of work, but in the wrong department. Maybe you can just shift to a different function. You know, so I came from HR, my background is corporate HR. Maybe I'm currently supporting the sales team. And I find it frustrating, and maybe I actually want to support the finance team. That can be a tweak to your career. It could be, I really enjoy working in HR, but I want to work in a completely different industry. You know, and I shifted from financial services to a manufacturing environment, very, very different experience. So, these changes can occur, or it could be a way of working. I love my job, I love where I work, all of this is great, but it's too many hours. I'm going to go part-time. So, there's all sorts of small changes you can make. Think about where you're showing up at work, what it feels like, and what are the changes that you need to dial up and down in order to get to that, the right level of energy for you.
Leanne ElliottSo, it sounds like maybe there's a common misconception or myth that people have that if they're unfulfilled in their work, they need a complete career overhaul. I mean, as you've worked with so many clients in your coaching practice, are there any other maybe myths or misconceptions that people are coming to you with?
Louise KershawA big overhaul might be what's on the cards. I think it's a, it's just a sense of, let's not predetermine what the outcome is going to be. Everyone's journey is different, and what people need will reveal itself through the coaching conversations, and through understanding what it is that's currently misaligned, what it is that's currently a mismatch. You know, we go into things like what your values are, What your strengths are, what gives you energy, how you want your day-to-day to look and feel, what motivates you. And then you can get a sense of where the misalignment is. The outcome of that might be, yeah, gosh, I'm in teaching right now and it fundamentally isn't going to tick any of these boxes. I need to change. But yeah, there are some big myths that, again, with your previous question as well, it was around mistakes people are making, and that ties into some of these myths as well. One of them is the arrival fallacy. And this is where we think, if I just achieve this thing, then I'll be happy. We do it in everything. Once I get married, then I'll be happy. Or once I buy a house, then I'll be happy. But that's not how humans work. All that happens when you achieve a thing is we shift the goalposts and we start craving the next milestone. It doesn't bring lasting happiness. We always revert back to our baseline level of happiness. So scientists call it homeostasis. We revert back. They've tested this on people who win the lottery, but also people equally who get into catastrophic accidents and become severely injured. Between 6 months to a year later, we revert back to previous levels of happiness or unhappiness. So when it comes to having your eye on some kind of big goal in your career. Let's say you don't enjoy your job right now, and you're thinking to yourself, but I'm going to get that pay rise in 6 months. Oh, but I'm in line for this promotion. Then it'll be better. With kindness, it probably won't, because we're designed to always be chasing something new. And so pushing yourself, if you don't like the job, to achieve that higher level of status or salary, it's a red herring. And it's what's keeping you stuck, thinking, I'll just keep keep going until I achieve this thing, it's not going to give you the lasting happiness that you'll expect. It's more about, do I enjoy the journey or not? I don't know if you listen to Diary of a CEO. He interviewed Jimmy Carr the other day, who I'm not normally a huge fan of, but he said something really spot on. He said, it's not the pursuit of happiness, it's the happiness of the pursuit. I thought, yes. That is exactly it. You just need to get clear on, are you going to enjoy your actual day-to-day? And this is why I talk so much in my content and with my clients around your career is just a series of experiences, one after the next. So make sure you're enjoying them. If you're delaying happiness until you get to this thing, thinking then you'll have it, it's going to be a wasted time, wasted life.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Louise KershawThink about What would light you up in this experience that you're having? You haven't done anything wrong by challenging the status quo and by feeling this way about your current job. It's not a failure of you at all. You're not behind. You're not making missteps. You're not a failure for not having this figured out yet. You're okay. You're just going through a reawakening. And I hope you can give yourself compassion and grace as you lean into exploring that, because you haven't done anything wrong by challenging it.
Leanne ElliottSo this all sounds really nice, Louise. This all sounds great. Wouldn't it be lovely if we all had jobs that fulfilled us and brought us joy and brought us energy? I've got bills to pay, I've got kids to pay for, I've got a pension, I've got the cost of living crisis, I've got my mortgage payments going up. This all sounds nice, but how can I even begin to afford it? How can I indulge in that? When I just need to pay the bills.
Louise KershawIf you're in a space where you feel like, I have zero wiggle room to do, to even begin this, I'm not going to be able to set aside any salary, no matter how long it takes, I am literally at the breadline, I've got no space at all to navigate this change, then, you know, that might be your reality, and I would not advocate No, quit your job and just keep the faith. Like, no, let's not be irresponsible. You know your situation better than anybody, and you know whether that is truly the case or not. However, is there some fear that sits behind it and maybe some assumptions that you're making about what it's going to take? You know, a common assumption is that it's going to require an enormous pay cut. And, you know, Again, everyone's situation and context is different. If you are moving from investment banking into being, say, a florist, yes, there will be a pay cut. Or you might slide quite nicely in a sideways move into something very similar. And any pay cut isn't forever. It's a starting point. And only you know whether that starting point is tolerable and possible. So, it's about getting really clear on what am I on now in terms of my salary? What's the bare minimum that I need? To keep food on the table and the lights on and the mortgage or rent paid? And is that going to be possible if I move into this space of experimentation? You know, you don't have to leave your job in order to start exploring this. You can do this on the side. You can do this in the evenings and weekends. Perhaps you work 4 days a week already, you have flexible working. You can start to experiment and even set up your path, your exit pathway and runway. Whilst you're still full-time employed. So it's just about being realistic for what works for you. And, you know, sometimes we'll get to the end of coaching program and I'll say to someone that you have, you have a choice to make. One choice, one perfectly reasonable choice, is you're not going to do this. You're going to now relieve yourself of the burden of caring about this ever again. You're going to accept that this role doesn't suit you. That it's not going to give you fulfillment, but you're going to try your hardest to put a container around that and compartmentalize it and get your joy and satisfaction from other parts of your life. Now, I don't recommend that because when you really hate your job, not when it's fine, like a job can be fine and that's fine and we can compartmentalize it. That's great. I'm all for that. But if you hate it and you try and put a container around it, That container is going to leak, and it's going to bleed into your relationships and your health and your sleep and your happiness. So I don't recommend doing that if you really, really hate the job, but there could be an alternative out there that you just haven't thought about that we can explore together. But it is, you know, one option. It can just be relieve yourself of the burden of pursuing this and accepting that it's not going to be for you.
Al ElliottLeah, I seem to remember that you had a similar experience?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I did. I mean, I must admit, I had my is this it moment when I was in my early 20s, and that's what motivated me to go back and do my master's, which is where I actually met Louise. Um, and she always stood out as an extraordinary, um, human and an academic, just incredible person. Um, but I think my moment that Louise is referring to there, where everything just starts to feel like that, that leaky bucket, um, was before I, I burnt out. And I think I've talked about this on the podcast before. My burnout was more what is called moral burnout. My values weren't aligned, um, very well with the organization I was working with. That was a strain. I wasn't using my strengths, my skills. I wasn't doing work that brought me joy. Um, but I was still kind of chasing the success, and I was 35. I think it really is that mid-30s point where you kind of go, oh, I can't, I can't keep doing this. Something has to change. And yeah, that was That was mine. Did you have a mid-30s moment?
Al ElliottYeah, I suppose, I suppose I did. Yeah. Um, well, it's weird because I went bankrupt around about 30. Um, and so, yeah, so it was almost like it was an Etch A Sketch of my life, shaking the Etch A Sketch at 30. So I, I kind of had an enforced is this it moment where I had to go back to work for a few years. But, um, yeah, I can definitely resonate with this. And I think that the issue, I think, for a lot of millennials may be today is that they have a slightly different mindset to Gen X. And I hope I'm not being— I think Louise does talk about this a little bit later on, in that they don't just go and do things. Millennials kind of usually have some kind of plan. And I know you, Leanne, always have a plan for everything. So I want to go back to the interview at this point, because this is where Leanne asked Louise about the obstacles and what's stopping millennials from actually taking this plunge or making a career switch.
Leanne ElliottI mean, how do things like mindset, imposter syndrome, These self-limiting beliefs, how do they impact an individual's ability or experience of career transition?
Louise KershawGosh, I mean, so much, right? Um, you know, the piece with mindset is really valuable, and I do a bonus session on self-limiting beliefs as part of my coaching because I think it's so important to understand what it is that's happening. And essentially, it's about understanding your own unique mindset saboteur is what we say. So the way that your brain is speaking to you will have a very distinct voice and a very unique way of showing up. And it's understanding that you are not your thoughts, and the feelings that it's giving you are not based on facts. So if you're making decisions based on how you feel, I mean, you know this, this is emotional reasoning, right? This is a very common cognitive distortion where you think your feelings are facts, and therefore I'm going to do this.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Louise KershawBut our emotions are not true. And so it's about creating, one, recognizing what your mindset saboteur looks and sounds like. So I might say to a client, you know, when you are in this state of hypervigilance and you just feel tense, how does it feel? And a client said to me once, well, it's like a fire alarm's going off.
Leanne ElliottSo, okay.
Louise KershawSo your saboteur is Mr. Fire Alarm. We're creating a character for it and giving it a nickname so you can identify it and separate it from you. And when this fire alarm goes off, you can now see it as a distinct entity and say, I'm not my brain, but I hear Mr. Fire Alarm's coming. I feel his energy about to subsume me. And you can start to create a space. You can start to say, oh, hey, Mr. Fire Alarm, I knew you were coming.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Louise KershawI knew you were coming because I'm about to do this massive presentation. I'm about to get really nervous. And I know what you're about to do, fire alarm. I know all the thoughts you're about to give me about how it's going to go really wrong. I need to focus on the threat. And I understand, fire alarm, that just because you're scared that you're going to say those things, I don't need you right now. Okay, I've got this. So thank you so much for what you're trying to do. It's okay. You can exist. My goal isn't to eradicate you, but I don't need you right now. So you can settle down. And you can kind of contradict it. You can look for evidence that the things that it's saying in its very unique voice, in its tone of voice, in its vibe, you can contradict it. So you're looking for evidence. If you can keep like a brag box, an accomplishments tracker, become your own biggest fan. And so you've got evidence now you can refer to. So when your mindset saboteur is going off, you can say, well, I know that's not true, though. I know why you're doing this, but that's not true. It's not based on fact. I have the facts here. I've written down all the times I've given great presentations in the past. I've got a list of all my wonderful feedback. And the likelihood of this going terribly wrong, and the worst-case scenario happening, in the order in which things would have to play out without me stopping things and intervening, It's like 2%. So thank you so much, but I don't need you. So it's just the reframing it, not letting it have that grip over your behavior and your feelings.
Leanne ElliottAre there any self-limiting beliefs that you see more commonly than others? Could you maybe give us an example that perhaps somebody might be experiencing and not realize it's a self-limiting belief?
Louise KershawSo much of what I see at its core has the similar The commonality between what I'm seeing is around imposter syndrome. And so just to be clear, this is about the sensation that your achievements are not deserved. You really struggle to internalize your success, that you're successful by luck, that you're a bit of a fraud, and that you're going to be found out. And it's only you, okay? Everyone else is competent. It's only you who are pretending, only you who are winging it. So we're both giving ourselves this kind of exceptionalism, and at the same time being really harsh on ourselves. It's a very odd thing, but it's so, so common. And it's just about understanding what that looks like. So Dr. Valerie Young, who's the leading expert in this, she talks about the 5 core types of imposter syndrome. She talks about perfectionists who are chronically dissatisfied, natural geniuses where if you don't get it right first time, it feels like a failure.
Leanne ElliottSoloists.
Louise Kershawwho have to do it all alone, experts whose main fear is looking like they got something wrong or uninformed. So they're the people who will study something for months and months before an exam or over-prepare for every meeting, and the Superman or Superwoman who has to be able to handle everything. So first bit is, I think, understanding which one you are and having some compassion for yourself. Because, you know, We are pack animals, like socially. There's a reason in terms of our evolutionary psychology. Being thrown out of the pack was really a life or death event. And so we are highly attuned to the risks that others might be thinking poorly of us. We are sensitive to that. So it's no surprise, but it's recognizing that everybody feels this way. Well, unless you have some level of clinical level of narcissism. Some kind of personality disorder. Everybody feels this way. And so I find that very helpful for people just to understand, you know, how would it shift things for you if you realized that everyone else in the room felt exactly the same? And they are not thinking about you. They're thinking about themselves. You know, we, we love to be quite self-obsessed because we are the center of our own universes. So it's just zooming out a bit and realizing that that's true for everybody in the room. Everyone is only thinking about themselves. What others are thinking of them, what they're going to have for lunch. They are not paying attention to you in the way that you think they are, and they're not picking up on these tiny mistakes in the way that you are going to flagellate yourself for later. So, it's just having some compassion for yourself. But I'd say, yeah, imposter syndrome is the one that kind of is the commonality that I see springing up again and again.
Leanne ElliottSo, if I've identified I need some kind of career transition, I need to make a change, I'm comfortable that I'm not chasing the happiness. This is something I'll find more, more fulfilling, more, more well-rounded in, in bringing me joy and bringing me energy. How important is it that I have a clear plan? And if I do need to have a plan, what do I need to think about? What do I need to include in that plan?
Louise KershawThere's a quote— gosh, I can't remember the name of it. It's something like, there's nothing like a concrete life plan to weigh you down. And so this is about Yes, you can think about the next few years of your life. Think of it as a sprint, but I wouldn't plan beyond that. The world we live in is just far too changeable, and the pace of speed of change is just far too great to have any sort of really firm plan for the next, you know, 10 years of your life. That's not how we're going to operate. But having a sense of, this is what I'm curious about exploring now.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Louise Kershawcan be really valuable. So, as my clients move through my program, which is Career Clarity Success, we then start to explore, okay, we've gone into your values and what really matters to you, what you're looking for. What is the sum of the big ideas you've ever had about what roles would light you up? What are you curious about? And then we formulate a plan for them to find out the truth about those roles. Their goal is to be an assumption busting machine and to be happily mistaken about what they find out. I want them to talk to somebody who's in that role and hates it, and who's in that role and loves it. It's reaching out and having quick, low-stakes informational interviews and finding out the truth. And so the plan is gathering data, gathering information that will help you understand if this is the right fit for you. That's a kind of critical activity. And then, you know, slowly upping that and saying, okay, I've found out what I think is enough information, enough research. How can I now get some actual experience? That might be some volunteering time. That might be seeing if there's an internship. What is the next step you can take to actually shift into this space and get that real-world data and experience in it? So, the plan is iterative. It's Giving yourself grace. It's realizing that there's complexity and nuance, and there's going to be a lot of dead ends and frustrations, and that's okay. If you have a really rigid plan of, well, I'm an investment banker and I just want to be a landscape gardener, and that's exactly what I'm going to do, you've jumped the gun a bit. It's get curious, get a bit relaxed, explore, see, get data back, get that feedback, and then Move on. Don't get just one side of the coin. If you aim to speak to, say, 5 or 10 people who are doing that job now in an informational interview, coffee chat, hopefully you're finding someone who is wanting to move out of it, who it hasn't worked for, who they've really struggled in that role. And just ask them why. What's happened? Where's the disconnect for you? What are the challenges on your most frustrating day, what is it that's literally happening that causes that discomfort? And it might be something that's for them personally. Maybe they are just not the right fit for that role. Or it might be they say something that's really revealing about the reality of that role and saying, well, the truth is, to do this job, you just simply have to be incredibly comfortable doing public speaking every day. And someone goes, oh. Didn't realize that was the case. I thought it was every once in a while. No, you're going to be doing public speaking all the time. Okay, helpful. And I'm exhausted by it. I can't do it anymore. Okay. So it's just getting that sense of why do they hate it? That's just interesting information.
Al ElliottListen, just quick one. If you've got this far and you want to ask Louise any questions yourself, then you can for absolutely free. We're bringing Louise back for a live workshop in a few weeks' time. If you want a totally free ticket then head over to truthliesandwork.com/workshop, pop your email in, and we'll let you know with the dates when they're finalized. Now, after this very, very short break, we're gonna talk more about what makes millennials different to other generations and hear the heartbreaking story of Louise's own transition. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are Both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Louise KershawIt is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Louise KershawI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. We've learned more about why so many millennials are considering switching careers. Before we get into Louise's own story, let's just dig a bit more into what makes millennials different and a little bit on how they like to be managed.
Leanne ElliottYou mentioned Gen Z, that they're coming into the workforce now with a different perspective. How are Gen Z approaching their careers differently?
Louise KershawI think They're entering it now. They're in a different time of their careers, of course, but they're also showing up with slightly different career dilemmas. I see Gen Z having huge creativity and imagination and innovative, bright ideas, and they're really hardworking. I really dislike this lazy and boring thinking around them being entitled and rubbish. I think that's nonsense. They're very bright and they're really quite ambitious.
Al ElliottYeah.
Louise KershawBut they went to uni during COVID I see them being much more insular, and perhaps, if it's fair to generalize, less adept at navigating workplaces with confidence. And so there's this really curious paradox where on the one hand, they're really quite articulate about not putting up with toxic cultures in the way that maybe we did entering the workforce. You know, they're actually quite good at advocating for themselves. Yeah. I've heard some people say, oh, Gen Z, they struggle to have these tough conversations or lay down boundaries. That hasn't been my experience of them. They're quite good at advocating for what they want and need and calling out things that are unhealthy or not appropriate. They've got no qualms about things that we would have challenged, like job hopping for better pay. And I'm so here for it. I'm so here for the way that they're challenging the model of work. But at the same time, there's this sensitivity, and there's this internalizing of anything negative, and this feeling that, oh, if I get negative feedback, then I've failed, and I don't want to experience discomfort at all. So, if there's a chance I'm going to get that, I'd rather not put myself in that situation. And so, I'd say it's a paradox because they do have these imaginative, interesting ideas, which show a growth mindset. You know, that's not that they have a fixed mindset.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Louise KershawIt's just they need some help with the idea that if someone has constructive criticism for you, it's not an attack on your character. It's not personal. So what I see as navigating normal workplace relationships, they see as navigating conflict. And I do have Gen Z clients who come to me and say, I've got this really difficult toxic relationship at work. I think, oh dear, they've had a terrible predatory boss, perhaps. They're playing awful games with them. Maybe they're not recognizing anyone. Maybe they're playing people off each other. Maybe they're lying. Maybe it's really nasty. And then when I speak to them, it actually, it turns out that they've just got some criticism and now they think this person hates them and they don't want to go into work and face that person. So it's more about the self-esteem and facing into challenges in that way.
Leanne ElliottAnd how does that differ from millennials? Are millennials better at taking on constructive feedback?
Louise KershawI think to begin with, no, because it can challenge our, again, that sense of your self-worth being tied into doing well. That was very difficult. But I think as we've grown up, we've gotten a lot more used to it. Millennials have been in the workplace now for 10 to 15 years, and I think we're much more used to, I suppose, that degree of emotional regulation and that degree of understanding these relationships and just facing into and sitting in discomfort. Not in the way that older generations are. I think we still struggle in many ways, but it's not as difficult as it has been for Gen Z. It's a different type of experience of burnout as well, I'd say. So millennials, they might be burning out now because they've hit this crossroad. They're questioning The impact, you know, what am I even doing? What's the point of it all? I feel overwhelmed. There's emotional disengagement. They're questioning, you know, I feel stuck. What do I do? This is all I know. But Gen Z are coming with the burnout almost baked in a bit. They're coming into the workforce quite exhausted. And I see them carrying on their shoulders, whether intentionally or not, The collective world problems. They're worried about climate change, you know, quite fairly. They're worrying about student loans. Many of them will struggle to get on the housing ladder. They've grown up during Brexit, Trump, the culture wars, the pandemic, being constantly online. It's all so much that now they're entering the workforce kind of with burnout, and they're expecting work to give them their purpose, quite rightly, to align with their values in the world. So the stakes are quite high for them. And, you know, they're tired.
Leanne ElliottI think you've articulated that so brilliantly in a way that I think will, will help people to understand the mindset of, of Gen Z and, and what they've been through before they actually join the workplace. I mean, I want to focus on the individual here, but I can't not ask, and if there is no managers listening who have had this kind of like, oh right, okay, that's why, what advice would you give them in terms of managing, um, Gen Z? Zeds, managing millennials? Is there anything that they can do in their management style to support people joining the workforce?
Louise KershawI'd say probably try to suspend judgment. There is a lot of negativity out there about the different generations and the way that they're viewed. I'd say to treat people as individuals and really listen, listen for what it is that this person that you're managing wants. A great question that managers can ask is, if you were managing yourself, what would you need to do that maybe I'm not currently doing? And that can help give you that really shared perspective around what matters to this person. How would you like to be contacted? You know, you can be flexible. It doesn't all have to be your way or the highway. You can think about this multigenerational team you might have and how you need to flex to meet these different needs. So it's really listening. I know there's all these different levels of listening, and perhaps we think we're listening when really we're just telling people how it's going to be. But if you can just lean in with curiosity and a bit of understanding for their completely different experiences and perspectives and ask for what they need, it will make a world of difference.
Al ElliottOkay, Leanne, I just want to defer to you for a quick second, and let's talk about the psychology behind some of the things we just talked about here.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So, I mean, generations, Different generations have different needs and preferences because of their psychology, their behaviors, their attitudes, their values. They've all been shaped by the specific historical, social, and cultural events that we've lived through. Our formative years really do shape us. And yes, of course, we're making generalizations here, but it's these patterns in the research that are important. They weren't intended to divide us. They were intended to foster understanding and empathy. So, with that intention, I am going to make some very sweeping generalisations now. So, each generation at work does have its own style and things they prefer, and understanding these differences can really help in managing them better. So, first, the baby boomers. Think about how they grew up. So, boomers grew up with clear hierarchies, respect for authority. They experienced the pre-digital age, and they were influenced by the post-World War II prosperity. It was a time of growth. that rewarded hard work and loyalty. So that's why they prefer structured top-down management, why they prefer face-to-face communication, job security, traditional benefits, recognition, consistent management practices. They're all important to them. Then we have the Gen Xers. We've got one in the room with us. Um, Gen X, so you, you saw a bit more economic instability than your boomer parents, corporate downsizing. You grew up with more divorces. The divorce rate was going up. Often perhaps both parents were working. That was new. So that means that you prefer typically clear goals, independence, flexibility. You don't like being micromanaged. You want a good work-life balance. You appreciate the social recognition and praise perhaps more over the material rewards. Then of course we have our millennials, of which I am one. We grew up, uh, with the Social media from a young age. We were shaped by events like 9/11, the Great Recession, huge uncertainty and change in the world. So yeah, we thrive on transparency. We don't like ambiguity. We appreciate collaboration, opportunities for growth. We value job security, stability, meaningful work if we can find it. We look for work-life balance, yes, but we also look for professional development, and we do like a tech-savvy workplace. And then our Gen Z. So Gen Z also grew up during economic uncertainty and with rapid tech advancements. They are the first digital natives. So yeah, they like flexibility and meaningful work, but they also really like financial stability, and intrinsic motivation is key for them. They expect— heck, I don't even sure they expect it, they demand a tech-integrated environment. So when you think about how we all grew up and the different things around us, it does seem actually kind of reasonable that we are going to have different preferences. So yeah, managers, leaders, we do need to customize our approach. Different things motivate each generation, so it is going to be important to tailor your management style accordingly. We do want to promote flexibility and balance. We know Gen Xers and Millennials both value that, so let's make sure they have it. Of course, meaningful work, good pay is, is great for everybody, but again, Gen Z is showing that that really meaningful work is a key motivator. And I think this is where we're getting to a point where if you haven't had that from the beginning of your career, that itch starts to, starts to really get irritating about 15 years in. And I think that's why we're seeing so many millennials right now making those career changes, those transitions. And that's why coaches like Louise have such an important place, uh, important role to play.
Al ElliottSpeaking of realising what truly makes us happy at work, let's just switch things up a little bit. We have a great story lined up. One of Louise's clients had a big revelation about her career. Instead of feeling like she had to blow everything up to find happiness, she discovered another way.
Louise KershawI've had a client who was in the space of AI and really, really thought that she wanted to move into the arts. You know, what was lacking from her life was a sense of beauty. It's a really interesting value for her, was beauty, that was missing. But as we explored it together, she realized there were other ways she could get that in her life. It didn't actually have to be in her career. And so she's exploring that in different avenues. In other ways, we've been halfway through coaching program, and somebody has just quit their job in customer service and said, I'm not doing this anymore, and is now exploring a shift into either personal training or running their own shop of some kind. And it's about that combination of entrepreneurship and being of service to people, but having autonomy and freedom and choice baked into that. And that's what mattered to that client. You know, there are certain ways to understand what's going to light me up, what's missing, where the disconnect feels, and therefore, what do I want to do about that? It's not a predetermined conclusion that you will make a transition, and it's not predetermined what that transition will look like and how long it will take. You know, sometimes people have shifted quite quickly into interviewing for something, something different, you know, from a sales manager into a partnership manager, and just the interview started happening. You think, oh, okay, that happened quite, quite rapidly because the transferable skills are really quite close, and it was just possible. And others have said, you know, I'd just like to take the time and maybe over the summer, you know, do some temporary work while I get some headspace from this and explore it. My long-term goal is this. It's not having a deadline in mind, but it's understanding what your unique journey needs to look and feel like to give you the life and the career that would feel right for you. It's just a journey. Everything is. And so, assuming that I'm just going to delay any of this, I'm going to put my life on hold until I figured this out, is misguided, because this is your life. These experiences you're having now, these matter just as much as the eventual landing in a role that would light you up. It's all just one experience after the next. And again, it ties into perhaps the way that we were raised and the internal scripts that we got about success and failure, and what success means, and whether failure is tolerable, and even encouraged in some ways, or whether it's absolutely unacceptable. And so, sometimes you need to unhook yourself from the script that you have around what failure means, and lean into a space of understanding that failure is data acquisition. That's all it is. I don't know if you listen to How to Fail by Elizabeth Day, one of my favorite podcasts, and she interviews people who failed. She does the top 3 failures of life. And it's so normalizing for us to see that failure is not only okay, but it's really important. Because how can you succeed if you haven't first figured out how not to do this thing?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Louise KershawI would not have been able to shift into career coaching, which I now love, if I hadn't gotten to a point in my HR career where I thought, I'm not enjoying this anymore. Now, some people would say, oh, so your HR career failed? Well, I guess if you want to put that spin on it. I don't. I think I learned what was and wasn't working for me anymore, and I moved forward. So, it's just taking the lesson from it, taking the data from it, having that growth mindset, and then—
Al ElliottAlmost all coaches and consultants have this origin story, a moment where they felt all the pain that their clients have and decided to actually do something about it. Louise just said that some people might have said that her HR career failed, but that's simply not true. Something happened that made Louise realise she wanted something different. So here's Louise's story. It starts roughly 4 years ago when COVID first struck the UK.
Louise KershawSo I was working in corporate HR for almost 15 years. across 3 different FTSE 100 companies, mainly financial services. And it was a great career. And I really, really enjoyed, you know, a lot of it. And my colleagues were wonderful. In 2020, my husband got sick. He got long COVID in like week 2 of the pandemic. He got sick right away. And he basically never recovered. And that moment was so vivid for me when—
Al ElliottYeah.
Louise KershawThe day that he came in and said, I can't breathe, and he was just gray. And we rang 999, which is our 911 if you have any listeners in America. We rang 999 and they didn't answer the phone. It was week 2 of the pandemic. Do you remember how crazy it was? The hospitals were full. No one answered 999. We rang back again and they said, okay, the paramedics are on their way, but it's going to be 6 hours.
Al ElliottWow.
Louise KershawParamedics came and they said, the hospital's full. I'm sorry, there's nowhere to take you. Just lie on your stomach and try to breathe. And that was all the help they can give. And they were wonderful. They were very helpful. But that was all the help they could give. And that's when I realized, okay, I'm not in Kansas anymore. This is a moment of shift about what our lives are going to need and that resilience and what being resilient really meant. came into fruition for me. And the other sense was, does my life pass the deathbed test? I know it sounds morbid, but I have this internal check where I say, if I project myself into the future and I imagine I'm an old lady and I'm looking at myself now, what am I shouting to myself to do? Am I saying, just do it, just try it, for God's sake, stop messing about?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Louise KershawLife's short. I'm 85. I wish I was in my late 30s again with all this time and space and opportunity and energy to do these things. Just do it. What would I be saying? Or would I be saying, oh, don't be hasty. Let's settle it. I thought, no. If I think about the deathbed test, I will really regret not leaning into this time with a bit of courage and a bit of faith. That I knew I could do it, and that I deserved to have a nice career that I really enjoyed and that would light me up. So all of that, I think, came into sharper relief when he got sick. I'm much braver than I ever gave myself credit for, I think, because all bravery is, is just leaning into the unknown and trying something you haven't done before. And so we moved out of central London to try and get away from everything. Moved to the countryside. And I had what the holistic psychologist, Dr. Nicole LaPera, she calls it the dark night of the soul, where, you know, I was in Exmoor National Park. The winter lasted like 6 months. It was deep snow. I was taking the dog for out on walks on the moors like a Brontë heroine, completely isolated. And I'd gotten to a point in my job at the time where I really wasn't enjoying it. We'd had a reorg.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Louise KershawIt wasn't working for me anymore. And so I started to emotionally detach, and I burnt out. And actually, I was then told, you're being made redundant anyway. So, okay, fine. Now what do we do? That was the moment I should have pivoted, but I didn't quite have it in me. You know, it does take courage, and it does take energy to make these transitions. So I took another job, moved across the country for it, and did that for another 2 years.
Al ElliottWow.
Louise KershawBefore I decided that actually, there's just something missing here. And there's nothing wrong with the companies I was working for or HR in itself. But the ironic thing about HR is that people assume it's going to be talking with people a lot, and it's not. It's behind PowerPoints, it's behind spreadsheets, it's behind project proposals a lot. So, I did the deep reflective work to figure out what was missing.
Al ElliottYeah.
Louise KershawAnd for me, it was the value of connection. And the driver for me was impact, like one-to-one impact, having a conversation with someone for an hour and walking away feeling like I've made a difference. So I knew it was time. I started my qualification at Henley Business School whilst I was still at work so that I could have a bit of a runway. And then I quit. And if I was being more careful, I probably would have set aside more of a buffer. You know, I managed to save about 3 months' salary, but that took a while to do. Um, and so it did feel risky, but I'm very aware of the reality of, again, my scared lizard brain and the way that it's amplifying the threat and amplifying the risk. And I was able to challenge it and say, well, what's the consequence of this not working out? I can get another corporate HR job.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Louise KershawYou know, quite easily. So I knew that what I wanted was to connect with people in a one-to-one relationship. And gosh, you know, relationships are the core foundation of a life well lived. I don't know if you saw that Top Regrets of the Dying by that palliative care nurse, um, Bronnie Ware. She wrote that book, The Regrets of the Dying. And one of the top ones was, you know, not spending enough time with, with friends and family. not having those rich relationships. And so, it's around saying, well, if I can get these rich relationships as part of my professional life, what a rewarding thing to do. And so, that's really where it came into focus, it came into fruition. I knew that HR sets itself up quite well with the transferable skills to be able to move into career coaching as well. And so, yeah, I don't regret it for a minute. I love it.
Al ElliottThere you have it. If you're a millennial and what Louise has said has really resonated with you, then here's where to find her.
Louise KershawSo you can find me at Clarity Coaching with Louise on Instagram. That's also the name of my website. Um, that's also how I'll show up on LinkedIn. So Clarity Coaching with Louise is the best way to find me.
Leanne ElliottAll the links are of course in the show notes. Do go and follow Louise on socials. Her content is so good. It's actually her content that that reconnected Louise and I. As I mentioned earlier in the episode, we went to university together, we did our master's together. I think she'd agree we weren't particularly close within those, within those classes, but we, you know, we knew of each other, we respected each other. And when I saw her content, oh, I was so excited. It was so good and so brilliant and so important. And the way she weaves in psychology, the concepts, the science, oh Man, she gets it in a way and applies it in a way that is so rare and so brilliant, um, that you just don't see many content creators doing. And it's just, it's just wonderful. You know, there's always something special about Louise and something that just, just commanded authority and respect. And because she was so good, even as a student, she was so good back then at the psychology side of things. Um, but the application, you know, there's always those academics that come top of the class and get best dissertation and continue to stay in university for 35 years. Um, Louise was always a practitioner, and she's proven that in her career. She's proven that in her coaching. So much respect for her. Love her work. Go follow her on— go follow her on socials immediately.
Al ElliottUm, talking of Louise, if you have got this far and you want to ask Louise any questions, then you can for absolutely free. We're bringing Louise back for a live workshop in a few weeks' time. If you want a totally free ticket, then head to truthliesandwork.com/workshop and pop your email in, and we'll let you know the date. We'll let you know the dates when they are finalized. So don't forget, we're back on Thursday with a great story about someone else who made a very bold career move after visiting 50 countries and working with companies like Rolls-Royce, United Nations, and PwC. Psychologist Nathan Cormelt realized that his superpower was helping international organizations create amazing workplaces for expats. That's us, we're expats too. So join us on Thursday for a fascinating insight into expattery and management. Expattery, expattery, it's my new term. Lee, anything to add before we leave?
Leanne ElliottNo, I'm looking forward to next week. Our 2 worlds collide in a way they have never collided before. We'll be talking expattery and management. We will see you then.
Al ElliottSee you then.
Leanne ElliottGo follow Louise immediately.
Al ElliottGo follow Louise. See you soon. Bye-bye.
Leanne ElliottOur guest today is an expert in helping men—
Al ElliottMenomenum. Can they just do it, or do they need some kind of plan?
Leanne ElliottUm, You need some kind of plastic.
Al ElliottThere you have it. If you're a millennial and you want some more— why am I— what am I saying here?