Episode 142 · 5 November 2024 · 40:37
LinkedIn’s Personal Touch, Gen-Z’s Job Exodus, and the Psychology of Facial Expressions. PLUS! Eman Ismail’s Hot Take on Email Marketing
LinkedIn’s Personal Touch, Gen-Z’s Job Exodus, and the Psychology of Facial Expressions. PLUS! Eman Ismail’s Hot Take on Email Marketing
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Story 1: LinkedIn's shift from professionalism to personalisation
news roundup#linkedin#social-media#personal-branding
Story 2: Gen Z and Millennials are ready to move on
news roundup#gen-z#millennials#job-hopping#retention
Story 3: The psychology of facial expressions at work
news roundup#psychology#facial-expressions#body-language#workplace
Hot Take: Eman Ismail on personalised email marketing
Workplace Surgery: Navigating deception in the workplace
workplace surgery#workplace-advice#deception#management#trust
Workplace Surgery: Reevaluating employee benefits packages
workplace surgery#employee-benefits#compensation#hr
Workplace Surgery: Managing political discussions in a diverse workplace
workplace surgery#politics#diversity#workplace-culture#communication
Show notes
LinkedIn's Personal Touch, Gen-Z's Job Exodus, and the Psychology of Facial Expressions — PLUS! Eman Ismail's Hot Take on Email Marketing
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why LinkedIn is becoming less professional and more personal, why nearly 60% of Gen Z are planning to leave their jobs this year, and how the simple act of smiling can actually change your mood — even if you're faking it. Plus, a Hot Take from email marketing expert Eman Ismail on why personalisation beats the blast, and the Workplace Surgery tackles deception, benefits packages, and political conversations at work.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. LinkedIn's shift from professionalism to personalisation LinkedIn has evolved from a polished professional platform into a space filled with personal updates — and not everyone is happy about it. Al and Leanne dig into a recent example involving Brewdog co-founder James Watt, whose engagement announcement sparked mixed reactions, and discuss what the platform's identity crisis means for your personal brand.
2. Gen Z and Millennials are ready to move on Research from Oak Engage reveals nearly 60% of Gen Z and over 50% of Millennials are planning to leave their jobs within the year. Al and Leanne analyse the findings and discuss what leaders can do to bridge the generational divide — starting with training your managers in compassion and emotional intelligence.
3. The psychology of facial expressions at work A new study from the University of Essex shows how our facial expressions can influence our mood. Leanne explains the "pencil in the mouth" experiment and why being aware of your expressions could have a real impact on team morale and communication — especially during a tense election week.
🔥 Hot Take: Eman Ismail on Email Marketing
Eman Ismail joins the show to share her hot take on the shift from general email blasts to personalised, targeted communication strategies. She explains why understanding your audience is crucial for effective marketing and how businesses can leverage AI to enhance their email marketing efforts — without losing the human touch.
The lesson for leaders? If we treated our employees like our customers, we'd live in a very different workplace.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Deception: "My manager reports directly to the CEO and is misrepresenting the status of a project. Should I speak up?"
- Benefits: "How do I modernise our benefits package to meet younger employees' expectations without dividing the team?"
- Politics: "Our HR team is frustrated by younger employees' preoccupation with U.S. politics. Should we ban political conversations at work?"
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team Can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottLeanne, you say we are here, but you sound very different and you're not sitting opposite me. Where, where, where the hell are you?
Leanne ElliottI'm not there. I'm here. I am at Grow Europe 2024 HubSpot conference. I am in the middle of the kind of the breakout networking hall. The morning sessions have just finished and people are in breakouts now. It's been cool. Lots of chat about AI, perhaps unsurprisingly. Not much chat about people and culture yet, although there was a little bit of a mention from one of the senior leaders in terms of how it can return value, add time back to businesses. But yeah, I'm sure as the sessions go on, we'll hear more and more about what, what HubSpot's up to, what their culture is saying, what their people are saying, and how they are literally changing the world. Some of the updates they brought out on the HubSpot CRM are Insane. I know we talked about Breeze before on the show, but oh my goodness, when you see it in person, it's incredible. And that's now completely live. The beta version is live for everyone to get. So yeah, very, very cool.
Al ElliottYes, just a really quick reminder, if you like guest interviews and hearing stories of how organizations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are right up your street. We bring you a brand new interview every single Thursday, and we'll do this Thursday. And if you like to keep up to date with the latest news around the workplace, Or perhaps, um, perhaps join us as Leanne is a roving reporter at one of the, uh, one of the HubSpot events, then you're in the right place. Because every Tuesday we bring you our weekly news roundup and of course our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottWe are also back with our Hot Takes, where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of business owners, influencers, and thought leaders. We are asking them for their boldest takes, their unpredictable opinions. Uh, nothing is, is off limits. We want bold, we want Spicy. Um, so yeah, what is happening in the world of work? What is broken? And what on earth is gonna happen next? And who knows, Al, we're literally living in the future. Today we are joined by Eman Ismail, who is host of the award-winning Mistakes That Made Me podcast. She is incredible. Stay tuned for that.
Al ElliottBut first is your favorite time of the week, Leanne. It is time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottIt is time for the news roundup. I'll cue that jingle.
Al ElliottWe're getting it queued up for you right now. Lee, what have you got? What have you seen?
Leanne ElliottWhat have I seen, Al? You know how you really hate LinkedIn because of things like humblebrags?
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottIt's just basically— what's the word that you use? It's full of—
Al ElliottUh, can I use that word on the pod?
Leanne ElliottI don't believe you can. Um, so yes.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottUm, so yes, you don't, you don't like LinkedIn, and it turns out Um, that a lot of people are with you. They're also not interested in that leader who's been on that 5-star self-care reflective trip to the Maldives for 2 weeks. Um, nobody really cares. Um, so The Telegraph actually wrote about this week. I always find it interesting when things like this get into quite, you know, highbrow broadsheet newspapers. But anyway, there you go. Um, The Telegraph this week said that LinkedIn may be getting a bit too social network for its own good. So while LinkedIn was once a platform for polished career updates, and professional when networking, it seems to have shifted into a space where engagement announcements, motivational stories, and not-so-humble brags have become part of the mix. So a recent example comes from BrewDog co-founder James Watt. I haven't decided how I feel about this, Al, so you tell me. So his LinkedIn post announcing his engagement to TV personality and entrepreneur Georgia Toffolo was— some say icky, some say funny. James decided put a business spin on it, posting, Georgia Toffolo and I did a very cool deal at the end of last week. It's a very long-term contractual agreement which looks poised for future growth, business and personal. The reactions were swift and divided. Some people thought it was quite funny. Others felt an announcement like that was more appropriate for something like X or Instagram. One user even declared LinkedIn is a disease, capturing the sentiment of those who feel the platform has strayed too far away from its professional roots. Um, so yeah, people are sharing these deeply personal milestones on what is meant to be a more work-focused site, and the overall sentiment seems to be LinkedIn wasn't built for this, LinkedIn isn't meant for this, keep that to Instagram, TikTok, and the like. Um, Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottI've seen this before though.
Leanne ElliottI've gone a bit squiffy as well, sorry. I think I've just— excitement knocked the table. Carry on.
Al ElliottI've seen this before on LinkedIn. There was some guy who, uh, Who said, what my engagement can teach you about cold email. And it turned out he was just obviously trying to be funny, but it didn't really land. I see both sides of it. It does sound like they were trying to be funny. I would say maybe then that it was too close to what he might actually have put for it to be clear that it was satire, assuming it was satire. If it's not, then oh my God, Mr. What's Happened Why? Who hurt you? Why are you like this?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's one of those, isn't it? I'm not that into LinkedIn, our whole selves to work, and we encourage leaders to do that and enable that in other people. So a part of that, then, yeah, maybe we should be sharing our, our engagement announcements or pictures of our pets. I think it's more that it's a sprinkle rather than, you know, that every post is about something personal. LinkedIn is a platform that I enjoy because it is a bit more professional, is a bit more educational. It is less social media. Research is interesting though, and there has been some recent research into LinkedIn that shows actually it can breed imposter syndrome. People basically did a questionnaire about the level of imposter syndrome they felt, and after scrolling through lots of not-so-humble bragging posts on LinkedIn, they reported—
Al ElliottLee, I lost you. I lost you. Got up to the point with the imposter syndrome. What were you saying?
Leanne ElliottI'm here. Am I here?
Al ElliottYou're here. What were you saying about imposter syndrome?
Leanne ElliottSo the research, the research is basically saying that looking through lots of posts on LinkedIn that's full of achievements, not so humble brags, can actually increase feelings of imposter syndrome. So they did 2 different, 2 different groups, one to rate how they were feeling in terms of professional confidence without any prompts from LinkedIn. And perhaps unsurprisingly, the group that was subjected to LinkedIn posts did report higher levels of job insecurity and imposter syndrome. So something to be mindful of. As well as leaders when we are posting about how freaking awesome we are.
Al ElliottYes, I think LinkedIn— the problem with LinkedIn I see is it's neither here nor there. It's neither a personal site nor a work site. People are merging it. It's always felt a bit icky, and I understand why Microsoft bought it because, because they've obviously got huge amounts of data. They've got access to lots and lots of people. It is the most popular social network for workers, but I don't know really who's doing LinkedIn well because A lot of posts that I don't bother going on it because I'm like, I can't be bothered with hearing about this, or I can't be bothered with you telling me about your cat's birthday, or trying to, like you say, trying to relate something. I'm so honored to XXX. So, um, I think LinkedIn, we'll see what happens over the next few years, but, um, I think LinkedIn at the moment, it's not that pleasant a place to be.
Leanne ElliottAgreed. What have you seen this week, Al?
Al ElliottWell, a little article on HR News caught my eye. Uh, we talk quite a lot about the generational difference But a recent research project from Oak Engaged uncovered some pretty surprising findings. Almost 60% of Gen Z say they plan to leave their job in the next 12 months, and over 50% of millennials are planning to do the same. According to a study by Deloitte, the average workplace in the US is about 46% millennial and Gen Z, and in the UK it's even higher, with combined Gen Z and millennials meaning there are over 55% 25% of your workforce. That means a quarter of your team are planning to leave in the next 12 months. Kind of a scary thought. The article goes on to cite a well-known business psychologist and professional broadcaster. Let me just read this so I can get this right. The name is Leanne Elliott, business psychologist and co-host of Truth, Lies and Work, the UK's number one business podcast. Leanne, this is you.
Leanne ElliottIt's me.
Al ElliottIt's you. Do you remember? If I start you off with a quote I've written down here, do you reckon you could finish it?
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottWell, he hadn't said managers need to adapt their leadership style to cater to both millennials and Gen Z, recognizing it's not a one-size-fits-all approach. While millennials—
Leanne ElliottBut the good news is—
Al ElliottGo on.
Leanne ElliottThe good news is training, managing, thinking Things like compassion, emotional intelligence will have a positive impact across generations. It's really just about making sure that you're individualizing your approach as a manager when it's necessary, including to generational differences.
Al ElliottThat's really impressive. That's really—
Leanne ElliottOr something along those lines.
Al ElliottThat was exactly it. I am going to link to the article because it's definitely worth reading. And also the OakEngage research is really, really interesting. It does sound like you know what you're talking about, Leanne. The article is also packed with some great stats— well, not so great if you're a leader or a manager— and loads more thoughts from our Leanne, including the idea that millennials can often feel pressured to be always on, and cross-generational mentoring isn't just for millennials and Gen Z. Gen X and boomers can benefit just as much. It's definitely worth a read, not just because it's written by my beautiful wife and co-host, but also because it's a really good article and a really good study by Oki Engage. And I will leave a link, well, in the show notes. Leanne, do you stand by these comments? Can I get all like Jeremy Paxman on you? Do you stand by these comments?
Leanne ElliottYou know what, Alastair, I do stand by those comments. I do. And if you do one thing, train your managers. No, honestly, it was such a fun project to work on with the guys at Oak Engage. Big shout out to all the team there that made it, made it such a fun experience. And I think we are going to create some more content around this as well. A really interesting study, an interesting Interesting. A fairly large sample of, of people surveyed as well, so definitely worth, worth checking out. And thank you to HR News for picking that up and reporting on it.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Lee, anything else caught your eye this week?
Leanne ElliottI don't know, it's fairly quiet. What are we, Tuesday the 5th of November? I think there's not much going on today apart from, from the Grow Europe. I don't know. Um, oh, of course, it's the US elections day, isn't it? Slipped my mind. Um, yes, as the states are deciding if it'll be Trump or Harris. Um, everything's just getting a little bit tense, isn't it? So I thought I'd bring you something lighter, albeit very loosely related. Al, have you heard of the saying, smile and the world smiles with you?
Al ElliottI think that's a song, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottWell, it turns out that there is some real psychology behind it. Um, so previously on the show, we did talk about how Kamala Harris belly laugh was getting quite the reaction. People loved it or hated it, but nobody could deny it did inject some much-needed energy into the, um, the US presidential campaigns. Um, but I'm not here to talk about Kamala Harris because anytime that I do, I get trolled on social media. YouTube, don't come for me. What I am here to talk about is actually about how our facial expressions can affect our mood. So a new study from the University of Essex published in Emotion dives into the idea that facial expressions can influence how we feel, something known as the facial feedback hypothesis. So maybe you've heard about the pen-in-the-mouth experiment where people mimicked a smile and then rated cartoons as funnier. Have you heard about that one?
Al ElliottOh no.
Leanne ElliottSo put your pencil, put your pencil in your mouth. No, like, so it's like it's horizontal, like you're chewing on it like that. Why do you look sad? That's meant to— that's meant to be a smile. Anyway, yes. Oh my goodness. Moving on. Um, some new research that was reported in The Psychologist, um, has pointed out, um, some interesting, interesting findings on this as well, albeit using a slightly different and probably more reliable— after we've seen your demonstration, Al— methods. Um, so it used electrodes stimulate the muscles that create smiles and frowns. And the results? Well, when participants' smile muscles—
Al ElliottAgain.
Leanne ElliottAnd the results? So when participants' smile muscles were activated, they felt happier even without any extra triggers like a funny video or memory. If they were shown positive images while their smile muscles were activated, their mood even improved. On the other hand, stimulating frown muscles led to feeling down, especially when paired with sad, sad images. So the effects are small, but they do suggest that our expressions don't just show our feelings, they can shape them. So while a forced grin might not flip your day upside down entirely, um, it does potentially go some way to making you feel a bit better. This made me think about our fabulous guest Annabelle from last week, our Gen Z. who shared one of her tips for resilience and confidence was to smile at herself in the mirror. Said it, you know, made herself laugh, made herself feel better, and had more energy to go on with her day. Well, Annabelle, science and psychology backs you up. It is an excellent thing to do to lift your mood in the morning. Um, I thought that was kind of a cool study. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottYeah, I think— well, when I was in sales and doing then banging the phones, we're always told to stand up and smile on the Because you could actually, you could actually feel or hear it through, through the voice. But I also felt that when I smiled, I had a better day, even though I was cold calling and it was a bit, it was a bit, it was a bit rubbish. I did feel like I had a better day. So yeah, I can see this. I can see this working. And also, you know, if you— if I used to, when I did have a job, in fact, it might be the same job actually, what I really didn't like, I used to watch funny videos before I went to work.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, which really helped because then I was going to work with a smile on my face. And then, like you said, it must have transferred and made me get through the day, which wasn't a brilliant job, which is why I left and started my own business. But that's a different story.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. So if anyone is, you know, over the next few days and watching those election results roll in, whichever way it goes and whichever side of the political spectrum you are on, um, if it's not going your way, just smile. Give a little smile. Your, uh, your mood shall lift.
Al ElliottOkay, after this very short break, we'll be back with our weekly hot take. Don't go anywhere.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast—that's us, by the way—and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common.
Leanne ElliottWe both use behavioral science to help people do better at work, and we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd two out of three of us are devilishly good. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Seamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like Their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts. But come back. Yeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. We are back again with our not-so-new segment now. It's, it's been going a little while. Hot Takes, where we uncover the truth and lies of work. With the help of thought leaders, business owners, and influencers. We are asking them for their boldest insights, whether it's a controversial prediction or an unpopular opinion. What is really happening in the world of work? What is broken and what is coming next? This week's hot take comes from Eman Ismail. Eman is an expert in email marketing strategy who helps 6-figure online business owners and e-commerce brands amplify their conversations and build lasting customer relationships. With a reputation for crafting data-driven, personality-infused email campaigns, Eman creates emails that not only boost revenue but also nurture genuine connections and repeat— encourage— and encourage— got those mixed up, all mixed up, Al. They encourage repeat business. Her impressive client list includes brands like Being Boss, Interact, and Penny Appeal, showcasing her ability to turn emails into powerful business tools. Tools. Eman is also a ConvertKit paid partner and host of the multi-award-winning Mistakes That Made Me podcast, where she dives into the valuable lessons learned from failures. And when she's not busy helping brands succeed, you might find her binging on podcasts or indulging in pizza. Uh, but she says not to tell her personal trainer that.
Al ElliottDon't worry, Eman, your secret is safe with us, but your hot take is not because we're about to publish it. Go, Eman.
Leanne ElliottWe live in a world of hyper-personalization where everything that we basically come into interaction with, that we interact with, is personalized. Everything from Netflix to Spotify to Uber Eats for us in the UK. I think it's DoorDash in the US. That sounds right. Yeah. Those food apps, things like Amazon and TikTok even, we're so used to The tools that we use, the software that we use, just being personalized to us, recommending what we find interesting based on our personal preferences and past behavior. And so we want these tools and experiences to be better for us, basically make it easy for us. I don't let anybody touch my Netflix profile. I don't let my kids watch Peppa Pig. On my Netflix profile because it's been perfected. My recommendations have been perfected. And that's the ease that we just kind of want to go through life. Like, give me, show me what I'm interested in. And so now actually it's got to the point where audiences expect this with their emails too. So it's got to a stage where 76% of buyers not want but expect a high level of personalization in their emails, right? And this was a study done by Beehive. So that's where I got that stat from. And there's another stat from Campaign Monitor that tells us that engagement is a lot higher when you are personalizing the experience for email subscribers. So click-throughs are over, over 100% higher in segmented email campaigns than non-segmented email campaigns. And that's when you're basically going to the effort of Taking into consideration what people will find relevant and what people won't, based on some kind of information that you know about them. And Campaign Monitor also found that personalizing your emails can actually increase your revenue by up to 760%. So it's well worth your time to create campaigns that are based on your subscribers' preferences or certain information that will basically just make their. email experience more relevant to them. You're making them feel seen, heard, and understood. You're making them— well, you're putting the right things in front of them that they want in front of them. And then the opposite of that is, well, when you don't personalize your emails, it's not that they're thinking, oh, this isn't personalized, we haven't segmented. But they are thinking, oh, this has nothing to do with me. This is not interesting. I don't want to read this. People want to feel like they're being considered, like they're being seen, like they're being heard, like they are Understood. And so by doing that, you're giving people that feeling and that experience. And sometimes people don't even know. A lot of the time, people will notice when it's done. Sometimes they don't notice when it's done, but they just know that they feel good being included. But they will notice when they're excluded and when they're not considered and when they're not thought about. And that's what you really want to avoid. And it's funny because when I was Kind of figuring out what I wanted to do, I ended up going like down the external communications route. But I was also really interested in internal communications because like you said, it's so— there are so many things that, you know, bring the two together that there are more similarities than differences. And so, yeah, there's so much that can be used when we're thinking about external communication with our customers that you can also use internally as well. If you're looking for help with your email marketing, head over to emancopy.com. And you can find out how to work with us at our website. But if you're looking for another podcast to listen to, head over to Mistakes That Made Me wherever you listen to your podcasts. That's where I interview extraordinary business owners and ask them to share their biggest business mistake.
Al ElliottYeah, as ever, fantastic hot take. And I think that the lesson we can take from this is that we— and I've said this many, many times— marketing is very similar employee engagement is basically your communication. You are trying to make people feel special because they are special. You're making sure that you personalize things. I think the key lesson here is basically to treat your employees like you would treat your customers. Segment your communications. Make sure you're not sending something out to everyone about something which only affects a very small percentage of the people in your organization. Treat your employees like you treat your customers, and you're not going to go far wrong, in my opinion.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. I mean, if at the very least we treated our employees like our customers, I think we'd just live in a happier workplace world in general. I think what's also really interesting about this, and I said to Eman in our conversation, is this synergy between people and culture and marketing communications and how we really need to work closely as people and culture practitioners with our marketing comms teams to help communicate these messages. Yeah. Messages. Um, I'm thinking about especially things that are really hard like layoffs and redundancies, uh, making sure that you're personalizing those messages to people who have children, who are perhaps a bit older so don't have as, as much, um, as much many years left in, in their career and are worried about that, to younger people who perhaps don't have the financial runway. How do we not only personalize our approach to helping them manage those layoffs but also personalize our communication so they understand that we're gonna support them and, and specifically the needs that they have. Um, so yeah, I thought it was a really great reminder that as business owners, as people and culture HR practitioners, we should be working hand in hand with our marketing and comms team.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. There's a lot to learn from both sides. Anyway, Lee, I think it is my favorite time of the week. It's time for our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Leanne, are you ready for question number 1?
Leanne ElliottYes, I am ready.
Al ElliottOkay, question number 1. I'm in a difficult position at work and I really need advice. My manager reports directly to our CEO and has been consistently saying a major project is back on track and meeting all milestones, but the reality is very different. We're way behind schedule, 2 key features aren't working, we've had serious issues with our suppliers. I sit in the project meetings and Watch my manager sugarcoat everything to the CEO. I'm really uncomfortable with this deception, but I'm not sure if I could go— if I should go above my manager's head to tell the CEO the truth. The project impacts quite a bit of our revenue, so it's not a small issue. Would I be doing the right thing, Leanne, by speaking up, or is this career suicide?
Leanne ElliottIt's uncomfortable, isn't it? It's an uncomfortable conversation to have with whoever you have that have that with— and I'm also now reminded of Liz and Kat, who were on the show a few weeks back— the more uncomfortable you're feeling about this conversation is probably a really good indication of how overdue that conversation is. So this feels really awkward. Yeah, it's a conversation that needs to be had. Essentially, this is called whistleblowing, and that's a term we apply usually much more to more significant cases of fraud or deception or dishonesty or Lawbreaking, but whistleblowing as a policy is also there for these types of scenarios as well. If you— I mean, you didn't mention the size of your business there, but I would definitely look to see if you have a whistleblowing policy. With that, they usually identify a person or persons within the business who would be that first point of contact, or indeed an anonymous way that you can submit your concerns. I would look at that in the first instance. If that isn't in place, I would always, always suggest going to the person directly initially. So going to your manager and saying, it's concerning me how you're reporting performance of this project in meetings. I feel it's not quite accurate in terms of where we're at. I think in the next meeting, I would like to communicate X, Y, and Z to give a more transparent, realistic reflection of where the project is at, and give your manager that opportunity.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottTo do it. I would then probably follow that up in writing in an email saying exactly that. I'm not necessarily focusing on her deception, but just focusing on this is where I feel the project is currently at. These are the data points I'm using to reflect how the project is currently performing, where our risk factors are, what's behind, what we can do about it. Keep it very factual, not personal. I think is the key here, and if that doesn't work and still nothing is done and you've given your manager every opportunity to, to action that, then— and you don't have a whistleblowing policy that enables you to speak to somebody else, third party, uh, then I think, yeah, I think you're gonna have to bring it to the attention of your CEO. It might be suicide in terms of that relationship with your manager, but I doubt very much it'll be career suicide in terms of the perception of your CEO. Al, you'll speak to this more than I can, but from the entrepreneurs I know, they just want to know what's actually happening in the business.
Al ElliottYeah, I agree. Some really good advice there. I think there seems to be 2 possible things that the person writing in might want to happen. One is they just want the project to go back on track, or they want the CEO to know where we're up to, know the project's off track, and get that back on track. Or, and it may be and, but or, they want their manager to be a better manager. And I think depending on which is most important to the person writing in depends on which way you go. Yeah. So you could— there's lots of burner emails out there, email accounts. So you can go and set up a burner email, just Google burner email account. And there's lots of places where you can basically set up an account that just disappears after 24 hours. So you can write an anonymous email, like you said, to the CEO saying, I think you should look into this. I'm, I'm an interested party that you should look into this project, ask these 6 specific questions, ask for these things. This is anonymous for obvious reasons. And you won't be able to reply to this email. I think that might be— I mean, that's also quite an exciting way of doing things like a burner email, but that would put the project back on track. If you want the manager to be better, then I agree, sit down with the manager, go, look, I'm really concerned about this. It could be that the manager just has no other idea of what to do. It could be the manager's just as frightened as you and like, I just don't know how else to deal with this. And they might just want to sit down and talk it through with someone. And you could actually be almost like a Samaritan's call to the manager, and that could really, really help. But I think you've got to decide which is most important to you, to improve the manager or to get the project, get these, let the CEO have a clear idea of what the project is. And that depends on what you would do, I think. Okay. Question number 2. I'm struggling to get my head around what a modern benefits package should look like. When I started the business 12 years ago, we offered the usual stuff like pension, healthcare, and extra holiday for long service. It worked great, but lately I've noticed our younger employees seem underwhelmed during interviews when we discuss these benefits. I've started researching what other companies offer, but I'm overwhelmed myself. There's everything from meditation apps to fertility treatment coverage. Some of these modern perks seem a little bit frivolous to me, but maybe I'm just showing my age. How do I figure out what benefits actually matter to different generations without breaking the bank?
Leanne ElliottAsk them. Next question.
Al ElliottSo is it really as simple? I mean, this could be literally the only 2-word reply we've got to a clinic question. Is it really as simple as just going, what do you want? And then here's my secondary question for you, Leigh. What if they say, I want, I want all these things and you can't provide them? Is it worse to ask them and then say no than just to make some offers?
Leanne ElliottUm, well, there's a few things wrapped up there. I mean, in the question, it sounds like the business owner is in a position to offer some, some benefits and some varying benefits that are different to what they've done before. And they have invested in, in those sexy benefits in the past, extended, um, or increased holiday allowance, that type of thing. Um, it sounds like you've already done some—
Al ElliottAll right, so if you're watching, um, on YouTube, then unfortunately we have lost— I feel like a proper broadcasting. We've lost the visual of Leanne. We've still got the audio, so you're gonna have to look at me while Leanne replies. Leanne, I think you were saying that, uh, ask these— ask your employees what they're looking for, and then you mentioned something about buckets, but that's where we lost you.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so I think, I think it's LinkedIn, and I'm sure there'll be many other companies as well that do like an annual report on the salary and benefits that companies are having in place that seem to be popular and engaging people, benchmark yourself, essentially. What you'll find, and you'll probably already see this anyway, having done the research, is there's going to be benefits that will fit in particular buckets, whether it be financial benefits, health benefits, wellbeing benefits, holiday benefits, all that type of thing. What I would do is maybe start to create some packages that you would be happy to offer. Put together a little focus group, a little steering group, invite employees who are interested to come along, or include it in your one-to-ones. that you have on a monthly, quarterly basis anyway. And basically just say, I want to innovate and freshen up our benefits packages. I've done some research. These are some options that could work well. What appeals to you? What would you want from these packages? It might be that there's an overwhelming consensus for one particular package. It might be they want to mix and match from different things. And that might require some further analysis in terms of financial impact on that and whether you, you can offer it. I think the thing is, if you go saying these are 4 or 5 benefit packages that I am able to offer you as an employee, which one appeals? Or if you could then design your own based on this full list of benefits that are included, what would that look like? And if I can, I'll go away, do the maths, blah, blah, blah. You don't want to overwhelm people with a blanket choice. It's like that empty car park thing, isn't it, Al? If you've got too much choice, it's really hard to know what you want. Yeah. Um, so you want to give some options, um, and some boundaries in terms of what is realistic by, by putting it in, in these potential, um, potential packages. Um, anyway, the thing is, you never know. I remember, um, Professor Sakara Cooper saying on the pod that he was brought in to help an organization draft up some approach to equity share, and when he actually started to speak to employees, they didn't want equity share, they wanted something entirely different. So even something that we assume every employee wants isn't necessarily the case. So that would be my thought. Structure your research into some kind of packages, speak to your people one-to-one, on a group basis, see what they want, and within the restraints you have as a business owner, try and give it to them.
Al ElliottI love it. And again, we're going back to this idea that if you treat your employees like your customers, find out what they want and give it to them. That's the simple So simple advice for business, and it sounds like the simple advice for building a great workplace.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Absolutely. It really isn't rocket science.
Al ElliottI love it. Okay. Right. We've got the 3rd question here, which is very similar to the article you mentioned earlier. And we have to— we had to feature this today because for obvious reasons. I manage a team of much younger people and I'm at my wit's end with all this American election chatter. Every time I walk past the office kitchen or pop into the break room, they're all huddled around their phones watching videos about Trump this or Biden that. I don't understand why they're so obsessed. We're a British company and none of this impacts our work. Back in my day, back in my day, we used to go down mines. Back in my day, we came to work not to discuss foreign politics, but to work. Am I being unreasonable here? Should I ban political discussions at work, or do I need to get with the times and accept the younger generation just works differently? Lee, thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYes, you do need to get with the times. No, you shouldn't ban political conversations. Um, and, and the fundamental misunderstanding here, and I can only assume you didn't listen to our episode with, with Kat and Liz, and that's okay, it's still there, you can go back, um, is that they made a really great point about now, you know, with social media and the, you know, constant news cycles and being online, news interrupts our working day. It's not like previously when it'd be on the drive home before we'd hear about something that had happened. It's a constant interruption and a constant attention grabber. So I think being naive to that or ignoring that is probably just going to cause you more problems, really. The thing is as well, and I understand that there can be an idea of, you know, if something's happening far, far geographically far away from us, one can argue it's not going to impact us.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, directly. The truth is it, it does, because there's going to be people in your business who, um, are concerned about how these more, um, far-right or far-left politics are spreading across the world, and particularly people who are in minority groups. It is a real concern. I mean, as a woman, you know, seeing Roe v. Wade overturned in the last few years, does that impact me directly? No. But What it's doing is it's providing a— it's providing a— what's the word, Al, in legal? Like when you've got a—
Al ElliottPrecedent.
Leanne ElliottIt's a precedent for— exactly, it's a precedent for, um, for this type of law, this type of control, um, to, to be normal, to be legalized. And that is frightening because those things snowball. So I feel for any people, um, who are looking at the US now and the divisive politics that, that may be coming out of there. And start to be fearful. And that's what it is, it's fear. And fear is disruptive. I think you need to be honest with your people that, you know, this can be a distraction. If somebody wants to talk about it, if somebody is concerned, that they can go to you and do that. There's going to be times over the next few days, I'm sure, where people will be glued to the news cycling and what that result's going to be. I think it's fair to Let that happen as long as it isn't completely disruptive. And if it is, have that conversation that, you know, that you'll need to kind of set some boundaries there. This moment is fleeting in terms of its direct disruption, but its decision and the impact decision could last a very long time. So if people are getting obsessed and upset about what is happening, try and understand why. There'll be a deeper reason there, and perhaps something you've not even considered. Maybe they have family in the States that they're worried about. There could be a whole host of reasons. So I think really it's compassion, being open, being honest if you're getting distracted by whatever's happening in the news from time to time as well, particularly with big events, and creating that environment. And we throw around this term a lot, but psychological safety in these moments is really important. What you don't want is somebody sat on your team who is genuinely anxious and worried about the outcome of this election, whichever way it's going to go, and doesn't feel comfortable to bring that to you because that anxiety they're feeling is going to impact their productivity, their performance, how they're engaging with their team, with your customers. It's going to have an impact, and we can't switch it off like we used to back in your day. We were able to switch that off, and we can't do that now. So yeah, I think we need to be a bit more compassionate, a bit more aware of how these things interrupting our lives. And again, ask your people how you can support them in this moment, what they need from you.
Al ElliottExcellent advice. I think we've got— there's, there's 2 things here. Are the people being distracted by the American election, or are they being distracted by current news affairs? If it doesn't matter what's going on, they're always distracted, then there's probably some kind of like issue with the engagement in your team because they're clearly not that engaged in the work, and they'd rather just chat about what's going on the TV. If, however, it is just the occasionally when something big happens in the world, like I remember 9/11, remember that was like, you know, you just didn't do any work that day, did you? Just glued to the TV because that's back in the day before you really had social media. So if it is just big events, then, you know, like Leanne says, perhaps just discuss with them how you— how best to manage this. Find out if anyone are feeling anxious about it and provide some support. However, if it's every day they're chatting about something, whether it be like what's gone on in The Only Way Is Essex or, um, uh, or whatever the TV program is they've been watching the night before, maybe that's more of a, more of a root issue that they're not quite as engaged in the work as you'd hope they would be.
Leanne ElliottI think you're absolutely right, Al. I think it depends on whether this is something that is, is coming out of the current climate. of how people are thinking and feeling in your business, or whether it's part of the culture and how people feel able to share and, you know, manage their anxieties and what they need from you as a leader in those moments in the workplace when, as you said, Al, when these things are impacting. So yeah, I think there's an element of understanding if it's climate or culture, but ultimately both rely on you thinking, what else can I do as a business owner, as a leader, to support I love it.
Al ElliottI love it. Okay, so I think that's the end of our episode. I think our Leanne's connection, Wi-Fi connection or 3G connection, is not going to support much more chat. So— oh, she's back. The video's back. Brilliant. Okay, so just a quick reminder, if you like to hear stories of how organizations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then tune in on a Thursday, every single Thursday. You will love them. And obviously, if you enjoyed today's episode, Then tune in every single Tuesday where we've got the latest news, we've got the Agony Ant segment you just heard, and of course our hot takes. Leanne, is there anything you'd like to add before we say goodbye to these lovely people?
Leanne ElliottIf you can hear me, if you can see me, please do subscribe, follow on whatever platform that you are listening or watching on. It's the best way to support the show. Um, stay tuned on socials. We'll continue the conversation over there, both from our Tuesday and our Thursday episodes and more about what is happening, um, or happened Grow Europe 2024. Yeah, I'm going to— now my work is done, I'm going to go play with the kids from HubSpot and see what the future holds.
Al ElliottGood for you. Go and hobnob. No, is that the right word? Go and meet other people. Yeah, I could have a hobnob. All right, guys, we will see you next week. Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye.
Leanne ElliottBye. This week we have an incredible hot take from Iman Ismail, who is none other than— I did all that wrong.