Episode 157 · 26 December 2024 · 47:25
Expert predictions for 2025 (Part 1): AI, soft skills, and the future of remote work
Expert predictions for 2025 (Part 1): AI, soft skills, and the future of remote work
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Prediction 1 — Oliver Yonchev: AI agents lead the way
The human skills AI can't replace
Prediction 2 — Will Giangrande: Soft skills take centre stage
Prediction 4 — Chris Savage: Remote work balances out
The AI hype cycle and what's really changing
The mood ahead of 2025 with Louise Camejo
Flexibility, exhaustion and the future of work with Amy McKeown
Prediction 5 — Phill Agnew: Authenticity wins
Prediction 6 — Sonia Thompson: Gen Z's workforce takeover
Wrap-up: key takeaways and what's coming in Part 2
Show notes
Expert Predictions for 2025 (Part 1): AI, Soft Skills & the Future of Remote Work
Truth, Lies & Work — It's Boxing Day, the chocolates are open, and Al and Leanne are delivering their Christmas gift to you: part one of a two-part predictions special featuring insights from eight workplace experts.
This week, they're looking ahead to 2025 through the lens of technology and adaptation. From AI agents that work together to the death of old work practices, they break down the bold predictions shaping the year ahead. Plus, they reflect on their own 2024 wins and misses — including whether their "AI-powered burnout prevention" prediction was a little too ahead of its time.
🔮 Expert Predictions for 2025
1. AI Agents Will Lead the Way — Oliver Yonchev 2025 will see AI evolve beyond chatbots into interconnected systems working together to complete tasks, fundamentally changing how teams operate. But as Al and Leanne discuss, the real question isn't what AI can do — it's what humans bring that AI can't.
2. Soft Skills Take Centre Stage — Will Giangrande As AI handles more technical tasks, employers will prioritise emotional intelligence, communication and curiosity in hiring. The fundamentals still matter — but the ability to think, question and connect is becoming the differentiator.
3. AI in Marketing — Eman Ismail AI will transform email marketing, helping teams improve processes and creativity. But the key to success? Strong strategies and human expertise. It's not about fighting AI — it's about becoming the strategist who knows how to use it.
4. Remote Work Balances Out — Chris Savage More companies will master remote work in 2025, blending virtual efficiency with the value of occasional in-person collaboration. Culture takes time to change — and the companies that create space for people to work through hard problems together will win.
5. Authenticity Wins — Phill Agnew Sharing the joy of creating your work can boost engagement and sales, signalling a shift toward more human-centred communication. Stop obsessing over what's in it for the audience — sometimes the story of the work itself is the message.
6. Gen Z's Workforce Takeover — Sonia Thompson Gen Z is diverse, disruptive and ready to drive change. Engaging them in conversations and understanding their values will be crucial for organisations aiming to thrive. They're more vocal than any generation before them — and they're not afraid to say, "Does this work for me?"
💡 Key Takeaways for 2025
- AI will enhance human skills, not replace them. The more AI handles the technical, the more valuable our emotional intelligence, curiosity and judgment become.
- Adaptability and flexibility will be critical. The organisations that thrive are the ones that treat change as constant — and build wellbeing into how they work, not as an afterthought.
- Authentic human connection remains a powerful competitive advantage. Whether it's sharing the joy of your craft or asking younger generations what they need to belong, the human stuff is the differentiator.
🎧 What's Next
Join us on January 2nd for part two of our predictions series. We'll hear from workplace experts including Dr. Audrey Tang, Katie O'Mally and Rob Kalwarowsky as they explore leadership, culture and wellbeing in 2025.
And don't miss our unedited interview with psychology legend John Amaechi next Tuesday — featuring a hot take on Jordan Peterson.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWelcome, welcome Boxing Day! Whether you're finishing off the Christmas chocolates or frantically hiding from the relatives, yeah, you've picked a perfect time to join us. If you're new here, grab a cup of tea, Yorkshire tea, Why wouldn't you? And settle in. If you've listened before, then welcome back. You know the score, but just give me a couple of seconds to explain to these lovely new people how this pod works. Every Tuesday, generally speaking, not over Christmas, but every Tuesday, we bring you your weekly fix of workplace news, spicy takes from our expert panel, and our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. And every Thursday, like today, generally, as we say, not today, but generally, we sit down with someone who's an expert in the workplace and ask them the questions that most podcasts are afraid to. As I said, today is slightly different. As 2024 winds down, we're kicking off a 2-part series looking at what 2025 holds for the workplace.
Leanne ElliottYeah, think of it as our little Christmas gift to you. And rather than bringing you one workplace expert, we're going to bring you 8, and they're sharing their predictions for the year ahead. Part 1 today focuses on technology and adaptation, and we'll be back on January 2nd with Part 2, exploring the more human side of work with some bold predictions on leadership, culture, and wellbeing.
Al ElliottThis should be perfect timing for those of you planning your business strategy for 2025. But before we jump ahead, let's just take a moment to reflect on how we did with our 2024 predictions.
Leanne ElliottYeah, if you're new around here, this is our 3rd year of doing it now, our 3rd year. So we predicted what was going to happen in 2023, 2024, and now we're on 2025. Let's go back to 2024 and let's first of all focus on the wins, shall we? Uh, we called it on flexible working, Al. Hybrid models, um, still dividing the business world, and we, we said that might well be the case. Uh, flexible working has also become a legal right in the UK. And at the same time, we've seen companies like Zoom, of all companies, recall employees back to the office, proving that the debate is far from over. Another big one was financial wellbeing. We really did see businesses step up with tailored support, like Peppy Health, for example, offering niche services for employee demographics. So a couple of wins there, Al. A pat on the back for us.
Al ElliottYeah, not a pat on the back for saying dem— did you call it demographics? That's a new word.
Leanne ElliottDemographics.
Al ElliottThat's a brand new word.
Leanne ElliottDid I say demographics?
Al ElliottI think you did. Never mind. But not everything has panned out. AI-powered burnout prevention, that was probably one of the predictions. Was that mine last year, Lee? Yeah, the tech's there, but the companies just haven't quite adopted it widely yet. That's their fault, not mine. And workplace wearables for stress tracking. Stress— see, there you go, you can have a go at me. Stress tracking.
Leanne ElliottI wouldn't do that to you. That would be petty.
Al ElliottStill very niche, maybe a little bit too ahead of its time.
Leanne ElliottThat's kind of the story of our predictions, actually. We're usually a little bit ahead of our time. And another thing we're maybe ahead of time on is empathy. We predicted it would be a cornerstone for managers in 2024. And whilst it didn't quite dominate, um, it is clear that empathy is becoming crucial. And leadership experts I have seen on LinkedIn are saying that empathy is going to be a defining leadership trait in 2024, especially as companies adopt AI.
Al ElliottThat is the perfect segue because AI is a huge theme in our 2025 predictions. So let's get into what's coming for the next year. We're going to kick off with Oliver Yonchev. Oliver is an entrepreneur, speaker, and former CEO of Flight Story, the global marketing and innovation Group founded with him and Stephen Bartlett. 2024 was the year everyone scrambled to implement ChatGPT and generative AI with mixed results. But Oliver sees something much bigger coming: AI agents working together in ways that could fundamentally change how work gets done. In the world of work, yes, you will get sick to death next year of hearing the word AI agents. You'll have started to hear Agents. And think of an agent as an AI system. And an agent can be combined in what they call an agentic process, which is AI talking to AI to complete tasks. And if you think of any team dynamic in any business, it's usually a byproduct of different people with different skills working together to achieve an outcome. And fundamentally, you can create that architecture through an agentic process with AI. So I think that you heard the word generative AI, you've heard chatbots, you've heard some of these terms become normalized. In 2025, you're going to hear a lot more about AI agents.
Leanne ElliottAnd I have to ask you about it, about how AI can create podcasts. Are we going to lose that? Are we going to lose our jobs there as well?
Al ElliottNo comment. No comment. No. So it's really interesting. People, I was at a conference and I asked an audience, there's about 300 people. I said, who thinks AI podcasts is going to be a thing and it's going to overtake normal podcasting? And no, I think one person put their hand up out of a room of 200. So everyone was skeptical. And I get why this, it feels such a human art. We struggle with this idea. But the reality is things get normalized very quickly. And if you go onto YouTube today and you have a passion for a very specific thing, like I'm really interested in MMA, mixed martial arts, a good proportion of that programming that's built on current affairs is AI-generated in part, and some of it in totality. So we're already starting to normalize. And as those lines blur, You know, a year ago it was somewhat pretty obvious when something was AI generated. Today it's a lot less obvious. In a year it'll be even less obvious. When you remove those frictions and content that's really deep, enriching, feels original, feels very human and interesting, and can be produced at scale, it can be generated in real time based on like your particular wants and your particular needs. Suddenly I start to think podcasting can definitely be, um, be disrupted in a way that we never imagined just 2 or 3 years ago.
Leanne ElliottWhat really strikes me about that, Al, is that while we've been talking about ChatGPT this year, and I have been genuinely impressed by what it's capable of doing, Oliver sees it as something even bigger, and AI systems are actually going to be working together like digital teams.
Al ElliottExactly. I mean, I, I, I have, it's only in the latter part of this year that I've been thinking that, I think it's called agentic AI, that I'm like really, really getting into that. And then obviously heard Oliver saying this and I'm like, yes, well, if Oliver thinks it, then I'm clearly on the right tracks too. It's like kind of going from having smart individual contractors, ICs, is that what you, what you HR people call it? To having an entire AI department. However, what's gonna happen to digital version of politics, office politics, when the AIs disagree with each other?
Leanne ElliottYeah. I'm not really bothered about that, Al. As long as there's some kind of dysfunction, I'll probably still have a job, so it sounds good to me. I don't know, joking aside, every tech conference this year has seemed to predict that AI is going to replace jobs, at least in some capacity, and that, that can bring a bit of worry and anxiety. So our next guest, Will Chingrande, a Gen Z psychology graduate and certified facilitator at Take Flight Learning, well, he is less concerned about employees losing job security so long as we invest in the training and development?
Al ElliottI definitely think, you know, might not be a perfect answer, but I guess that's everyone's answer. You can't really predict things. But as I'm starting to see more of, AI is just getting better and better as we speak. I know you all have talked about it a lot on your show, which is great. And I think as it gets better, that's not to say that we're not going to need the skills and the knowledge of our workers in the workforce. But I do think I'm interested to see, and I could see that interviews are going to rely even more on soft skills. I think that when you're interviewing someone, being able to see like how they interact with you, are they asking good questions, like being able to see a lot of the human side of yourself, I think is going to be that much more important because that's one thing that AI won't be able to replace is that quality of human touch. So I think that in interviews, I think those might even be more prioritized than other qualities that you have, because you can teach. And I think even with what we're talking about today with inexperience, you can teach those skills. But I think being able to have those people skills and to ask questions and to be curious, those are all things that I don't think, you know, AI necessarily has that we, we do have. So I think that I'm going to see even more of that as we move forward. So this could be completely off, but that's, that's my prediction.
Leanne ElliottI mean, if there was— if there's anybody younger listening who's maybe at college now or is kind of tuning into what they might want to do after when they finish and they're hearing this prediction. Are there any kind of soft skills that you'd maybe recommend they start investing in in terms of their own development?
Al ElliottYeah, I think being able to do the fundamentals. I know it sounds basic, but certain things like being able to organize a coffee chat or having those types of informational interviews with people who are experienced in an industry that you want to go into. And I think certain things like being able to thank someone after a chat that you have with them and telling them exactly what they taught you and how you benefit from it, I think is a really valuable quality to have. Maybe even writing, you know, my dad's always told me, write handwritten letters to people who have, you know, helped you in your career because a lot of times When you're a Gen Zer, that's not the typical thing to do. So you're coming from a place of texting and emails are normal. So that gives you an instant opportunity to stand out amongst other people that you might be competing with jobs for. If you send a handwritten letter, oh, this person took the time to do this. And again, it shows the quality of human touch. And I also think being able to ask powerful questions like, you know, asking about the company, And, you know, how they see their company going in 5 years. What specifically do they love about their job? What is one area that they might want to improve? Asking questions that are not just centered around pay, but centered around, you know, the ethics and the morals of the company and your values, I think is really beneficial. So those are some of the things that I've been told to emphasize when I'm in an interview. I haven't been in an interview in a while, but Also just with handling and speaking to people that I'm, you know, just meeting for the first time. So those are a couple of the qualities that I think could be really beneficial to help you stand out. Now, this is an interesting take. It's instead of saying that AI is going to make human skills obsolete, it's actually making them a bit more valuable.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And I think our next prediction also shows how this is playing out in specific industries. Next up, we have Iman Ismail, an expert in email marketing strategy and the host of the multi-award-winning podcast Mistakes That Made Me. With marketing budgets under pressure throughout 2024, Eman's prediction about AI in marketing is particularly timely. She started sceptical about AI but now sees opportunities that could completely transform the industry. My prediction is about AI, actually. Now, I was someone who didn't really bother with it initially. I think I was just tired of people talking about it and hearing about it, and I was like, whatever, just tunnel vision. Let me just carry on with what I'm doing and completely ignore it. But the more I've been playing around with it and using it, the more I see it as this amazing tool that can help people do better with their emails and write better emails. So I think that 2025, we're going to see more companies using or training AI to write their emails for them, which is going to be really interesting because either people are going to do it really badly or they're going to do it really well. And I think in order to do it really well, You're going to need to have a good email strategy outside of AI. You're going to really need to know what you're doing and understand what your goals are and understand your audience before you can train AI to do this for you. And I think it's not going to be a, oh, it's going to do it all and it's going to be a hands-off situation for companies. I think it's going to be a case of email marketers working hand in hand with AI as kind of like as partners to better their email marketing. Is there any advice that you'd give them, any kind of steer you'd give them to, as you say, to embrace AI and not necessarily fear it? Yeah, I think the most important thing is to be in a position where you're a strategist, where you're being paid for how you think. I think I have seen, as I have built my own micro email agency, that it's very easy to find people who can write emails, who can do the copywriting aspects, who can do the execution, which is great. It's a lot harder to find people who can do the strategy side really well and who can do the thinking behind the execution. Like, why are we doing things the way that we're doing it? Why have we chosen to do things the way that we're doing them? And so if you can get yourself in a position where you're the strategist, where you're Being valued and paid and appreciated for the way that your brain works and puts things together. That's something AI can't do, at least yet. And so even when I'm using AI to create things for creation, I am not concerned because I know that my clients couldn't use AI the way that I use AI to produce the things that I produce with AI because they don't have the knowledge Even to know how to use AI to produce the end results that we're looking for. Right. And so that's what has really comforted me and made me feel good about it in terms of, well, my expertise still matters here. My skills still matters. It's like, now I have family who are programmers and coders, so I hear them talking about AI as well. They have the same concerns.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottcan do the coding now for them, but they're still there to check it all and to make sure that it works and to pick up on the errors and to find what is working and what's not working. AI can't go to the kind of depths that they can go to. And so I think that there's a lot of potential for us to use AI to increase and improve our processes, our work. Even our production as well. I think don't be scared of it. I don't know if I was scared of it initially. I think I was avoiding it. But since I really did learn to embrace it and started playing around with it, it's blown my mind. And I'm like, wow, this can help me. This helps me get through my work faster. This improves my work, improves my processes, improves what I'm producing. And so I'm excited about it now more than anything.
Al ElliottEman is always immensely practical. It's not about fighting AI, it's about becoming the strategist who knows how to use it. And those are gonna be the real winners in 2025, 2026. Anyway, that's enough on AI for the time being, I think. After the break, we're back with some predictions from Wistia's Chris Savage on remote working, Nudge podcast hosts Phil Agnew on how enjoying our work could make us more money in 2025, And inclusion expert Sonia Thompson, who brings a powerful perspective on workforce demographics in the next year. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake fandoms for their artists. fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Leanne ElliottI'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Uh, unless you've been living off-grid, you'll know that the return-to-office debate dominated headlines this year, with companies like Amazon and Meta taking hard stands. Chris Savage, founder and CEO of Video marketing platform Wistia, thinks 2025 will finally bring some clarity to remote work. Oh, and he also thinks AI is all hype.
Al ElliottI think at work we're gonna see, uh, a normalization of companies that have— like, more companies that have figured out remote work. Um, I think we have to remember that remote work was new to 99% of people in 2020 and 2021, and actually it wasn't really till If you were at a remote company that everyone else had gone back to work and things had normalized, you're no longer afraid of COVID and stuff, that you really got to see what remote work is. And I think we're going to see that there's a much higher percentage of people working remote than pre-COVID, that there's going to— we're going to see higher job satisfaction there. And I think the reason is that actually that people can get together in person. It's like, it's like a little counterintuitive, but—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat's at least what we found is that giving, creating space for folks to get together in person to work through certain problems, just spend time together, makes remote work a lot easier. So I think we're going to see kind of like a more of a balanced take there. Yeah, I think in tech we're going to see hopefully like inflation has come down and hopefully interest rates continue to ease down. And as that happens, we should see people investing more into riskier things. And tech is a risky thing. So I expect that to slowly come back over time. And I also think we're going to see there's been so much AI that has been overpromised and underdelivers. Like there's so much AI that's like a distraction. And, you know, if you know the hype cycle, like we've gone through this hype cycle, I think we're going to start to see a few more things that are pretty concrete and provide real value. And it's not like going to be AGI necessarily. I think it's going to be actually lots of small, specific things that, that companies can adopt that can actually like really improve productivity. So those are my 3.
Leanne ElliottIn terms of AI, I've spoken to a couple of tech, tech leaders recently and they seem to have different opinions on AI. I speak to some people who are like, it's going to completely revolutionize the way we work. It's going to make a lot of, of certain types of jobs redundant in terms of they're not needed, not necessarily actual layoffs, Um, and then I've heard other people say it, it, it's a hype, it's another hype cycle. It's, it's gonna normalize out. Where do you sit on the argument?
Al ElliottI think that there is AI. Okay. So I think that like we've been going through a hype cycle on AI, which is like everyone thinks it's gonna change the world instantly and then it doesn't. Um, but that way the hype cycle usually works is it, it gets so much attention and investment that some of those investments end up working and paying off. So I, I, so I think we're gonna see more of those things paying off soon. Um, I think there are some places that it's paying off tremendously today, but the challenge we have is that like, you know, even if we had AGI today, um, like general intelligence that could do anything, and let's say it looked like a Slack bot, like you could Slack with some, something, and instead of it being a human being, it's like this AI and you give them tasks and they do stuff. Culturally, it still takes time to get through change. Um, it still takes a lot of time. And, um, I actually like ChatGPT. I'll give you an example. ChatGPT, incredible at helping you with grammar and rewriting stuff. It's so good at this very specific thing. So why, why is anyone writing anything that doesn't have perfect grammar? It's like they have to take it and they have to copy it. They have think to do that. You have to change a workflow, and that is hard, and that takes time. And I do think everyone will eventually get there, uh, but I just think it is like culturally, it's, it's slow. We have this cultural speed that things can go at, and even if there's brand new technology that can change the world, it's just, it always takes time for people to get comfortable with it. Um, there's also gonna be really, really weird failure cases. So I'll give you an example on the support side. I think support's been something that people point at. Yeah. And say like this is probably the most likely area to be impacted by AI first. Because if you're writing in and you have a support question as a consumer, if you get an answer in real time, you're going to prefer that. If the answer is really good, that's going to be great. If it's any hour of the day, that's going to be great. If it's in any language, that's going to be great. All these things like the knowledge base that has the answers that people have trouble working through, or the APIs if it's a software product, whatever. It seems like a pretty automated thing. Like you should be able to do that at some point. The issue is, let's say you have a support organization that is, um, 50 agents effectively. Uh, what happens if you have a huge problem and instead of it really alerting you, you end up with like going from 50 agents to 1,000 agents and you don't even know?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLike you could have an outage and think everything's fine. And it's just because there's like, you're infinitely scaling this thing that used to require humans. And so also humans are pretty good at asking pretty nuanced, complex things. I just think that like we probably will use AI. We are certainly using AI at Wistia to help us on the support side. But to the place where you get where there's like no support people seems pretty unlikely to me. I think, I think jobs will change.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottA lot in a lot of places and probably a lot of unexpected places. But I think they're going to change. And I think that's really what that means. Like another example is if you look at graphic design, we're seeing on Fiverr like that less people who are like average or not great graphic designers are not getting as much work because a lot of one-off stuff that you would've needed to go get somebody to help you make this thing with, now you can do yourself. Uh, but the very best graphic designers are, I would bet, gonna end up getting more work because there's more people who, um, actually are able to get some graphic design done. And often that's what convinces you to do even more of it. So there's like that, there's gonna be a lot of, it's definitely gonna change work and it's gonna change jobs, but I'm not convinced it's gonna be super, super fast. I think it's gonna take some time.
Leanne ElliottNot really. Now you've got the context. He doesn't really think it's all hype, but Chris's point is that whilst we are excited about AI, any change with humans inevitably is going to take some time.
Al ElliottIt's such an important point about culture taking time to change. I think a lot of businesses learnt that the hard way this year.
Leanne ElliottYeah, 2024 has been a real year of transition, and with change, of course, comes opportunity. Our next 2 predictions come from Louise Camejo and Amy McCown. Louise is co-host of the runaway success that is Content is Profit podcast and also has a professional podcast studio. That they rent in Jacksonville, Florida. Amy is a leading consultant specializing in workplace mental health who has worked with huge organizations such as the EU Parliament, Samsung, Burberry, EY, and many other FTSE 100 organizations. We'll hear from Luis first. He thinks 2025 is going to be a really good year for business. Amy is also cautiously optimistic and predicts the businesses that finally kick old-fashioned ways of working to the curb will be reborn and thrive.
Al ElliottAt the time of this recording, we're a week away from American elections. So pretty crazy times. And I was just on a call this morning with a partner of ours. And my prediction is that next year is going to be a good year for business. I was talking to him, like, since 2020, it's been really rough and really hard for a lot of people all around the world. We have family back in Venezuela, different things.
Leanne ElliottAnd Yeah.
Al ElliottPersonally, we've gained a lot of momentum this last year and it's been a lot of fun and a lot of hard work. So my prediction is that that's going to continue to move forward based on what we've seen, especially in the country that we live in, as far as general things. So I think that's going to be better for a lot of people. As far as the business and trends in the content industry, a lot of the conversation has been around AI and how AI can help you be more productive. In many ways, so in fact, in a couple days we're having a keynote in a university here on to help entrepreneurs do that. So I encourage every single person to start educating yourself first in your own process. Like how do you do the thing, or how did your team is doing the thing? And then find those pain points that maybe are taking a lot of time or a lot of resources because I assure you that there's going to be a tool that's going to help you do it a little bit faster. a little bit more effective. So, those are my 2. I'm very optimistic in general. So, hopefully that aligns with a lot of people. And I'm a big fan of creating your own environment, creating your own terms. So, regardless of what happens, I think it's going to be a good year.
Leanne ElliottAnd what is the mood? Because we've spoken to a few different guests about various different impacts that the election might have. Not asking for political views, none of my business. But in terms of the general mood over there at the minute, how's everyone feeling?
Al ElliottYeah, I mean, I think it's hard to not have this conversation without being a little political, but my background, I come from Venezuela. I migrated to the States in 2010 to go to college and found my life here, found my wife. I have 2 kids now and land of opportunity, as they say. But I also lived in Europe. I lived in Italy and I lived in Spain. So, I've been around and I've seen A few a few countries have been very fortunate that football or soccer here in the U.S. like allowed me to do that. And in Venezuela, we lived in a very negative environment, and the last four years have been crazy close to the ideals and the messaging that we've seen back in Venezuela. So you have a lot of people, a lot of households that are divided, a lot of communities that are divided. I was watching a piece of content the other day, and then like. In either side, there's a lot of like hatred. And it was very similar to what we lived in Venezuela with like the social inequality that they were, you know, mentioning in traditional media. So that's why I'm also a big believer in this form of content, long form, you know, podcast episodes. It's unfiltered. You can actually, uh, listen to people have real conversations, right? There's no highly edited— the majority of the shows are that way. So that's why I like it. It just gets us closer to the people that we admire or the people that we want to get to know. And, um, and yeah, so I see a lot of division. I also see a lot of hope in a lot of people. I see, you know, that's why I say, uh, a lot of people that just don't want that, they've seen it. I think we live in a world where like information flows, uh, especially on the internet and the conversation. Like, I mean, we're connecting 2 continents like right now, right? And, and I'm sure everybody knows a friend that knows a friend that's in a different country that might tell you something different than is being shown. So I encourage you to have those conversations and have those challenging conversations and have those what's happening conversation where at the end of the day, we're one big community, right? So it's like, how can we be all successful? We live in a world of abundance. And some messages out there are saying that we don't, but we do, and we can help each other. And And I think that's the one. So a lot of hope, one, uh, based on, you know, the previous division that's been happening. So, you know, knocking on wood that we actually see a good year. So I, I used to live in Caracas, like the, the, the capital of Venezuela, big city, 6 million people, like crazy. When I came to the US, I came to a place where it is a big city, small town feel. So very far apart. And the, the, what it really struck me was like how nice people were. Like you're walking the street and people are like, good morning. Or they smile. It's like, how you doing? They don't know you. You're in a coffee shop. You can have a conversation with everybody. And over the last year or so, we've seen less of that. And I'm scared that we're going to lose that because at the end of the day, we're human. We seek connection. And after those 2 rough years of people just being cooked up at their homes, I also think that things like this, that technology can bridge those connections together and help us continue to do. But like I said, go out to the local coffee shop and if you see somebody sitting there, just introduce yourself. Be like, hey, nice to meet you, man. I would love to have a conversation. We had an episode called Coffee Shop Serendipity, and we met some of the most incredible people in our lives at a coffee shop, including my brother's now wife. And it's just like that. So, you know, like you said, I think we're a little bit tired of, you know, what's been going on, and we just need more of that connection and in general, in business, in personal lives. So, Amy, what are your predictions for 2025 in the world of work? I'm intrigued to hear this.
Leanne ElliottI think in 2025, we're going to see more of what we've seen in 2024, which is figuring out how to work, right? So, we are in a really interesting and unprecedented time of change. If you look at our working practices and how we've structured organizations, it's really kind of Industrial Revolution-esque. Throw in COVID, throw in intergenerational challenges, throw in the world in which we are right now, which is kind of political uncertainty, economic uncertainty. None of us know how to work anymore. And actually, I'm really genuinely excited by this. But yeah, I think that we're gonna spend 2025 like we've spent 2024, figuring out how to build organizations and careers that actually work, right? So the organizations that do this well are going to be ones that are flexible, hybrid, thinking through different demographics. You know, I've spent 2024 working across the world in organizations of all different sizes, and there are a couple of themes that I've seen in all of them, whatever the industry, whatever the country, whatever, whatever, which is that we need as individuals and organizations to figure out how we're going to live in a world of continual change and Because that's not going away anymore, right? It's not. And the structures and foundations that we've had for decades don't work, and that's the same with working practices. So what used to happen in the '80s and '90s is if there was economic pressure, you would squeeze your assets, you'd squeeze more out of people, you would get rid of layers of management. You— that isn't working, right? Across the globe this year, every organization I've seen is struggling with burnt-out, exhausted, Overwhelmed employees, you know the pandemic, what's happening globally, and what's happening financially. So you can't sweat your assets—a terrible term, right? That I've seen. And also people aren't doing it anymore. You know the working force. I was talking to a lady this morning that's talking about 70-year-olds being in work. We've got five generations in the workforce for the first time. You know inadequate pension covers means people are working into their 70s and 80s, and because they want to. And they're in the same career structures as 20-year-olds, right? People hybrid, people flexible, international. You know, we're doing an international Zoom-based podcast, right? So, so we've got a number of things. We've got— it didn't work before, it certainly doesn't work now. And some of the old management practices and techniques, which was about squeezing more out of people, isn't going to work because there's nothing left to squeeze. You know, we've got a post-COVID traumatized global population dealing with change. So, it'll be more of the same. I expect cost pressures for most of the year, as we've seen in 2024. But it's also real opportunity. You know, I'm thrilled by the opportunity this presents for smaller organizations or organizations that really think about what works. What do they want to be? How do they want to work? What lifestyles people want to have? How they change roles and career structures and shapes around that, I think it'll be really innovative. But innovation comes from difficult times. So we're kind of in the death of the old working practices in order to kind of reborn, you know, in a fairer, more equitable working world. And you can see this tussle, right? You can see the Elon Musks and the bankers and the let's go back 5 days a week and the Amazons, you've got to be back. And you've seen—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottgood talent walking to organizations that have more flexibility. So, a very summary of my answer: more exhaustion, more tiredness, more financial pressure, more difficulties for providers working in this space, unique opportunity to build innovative new cultures. And the theme against all cultures will have to be How to support individuals to live with constant change, but how to build working practices and management and leadership practices around constant change as well.
Al ElliottAfter all this doom and gloom headlines we've had in 2024, it's nice to hear someone talking about opportunities rather than threats. And do you know what I love about Amy's point? She's just saying that we need to stop waiting for things to go back to normal because this, this is normal. This is the new normal.
Leanne ElliottHear, hear. Why does anyone want to go back? And it always blows my mind that entrepreneurs of all people would want to go back. And I think, you know, that's why we're seeing so much pushback. The genie is out of the bottle when it comes to working from home, hybrid working, ways of working that provide a better work-life balance. And as Louise said so beautifully, finding our way in this new balance doesn't have to be combative. We all want and need human connection, whether that's in person or online. It's all about just finding our own balance.
Al ElliottTalking of human connection, our next prediction comes from Phil Agnew, founder and host of Nudge, the UK's biggest marketing podcast and one of our personal favourites. Phil's research on human connection might help businesses navigate this new normal. Here's a bit of a prediction based on something I've just tested, which may or may not happen. A researcher called Danny Zain, who's been on my show before, he came back on and shared a new study that he's run. I think the study is very, very interesting and it could change a bit of communication next year. His study, and this was a meta-study which had 5 different parts of his experiment, looked at what happens when somebody who's selling a product talks about the enjoyment they had creating that product. What happens? And does that make the buyer more likely to buy compared to when you don't talk about the enjoyment you had, but you just talk about the product benefits? And he found in loads of different scenarios, that sharing the enjoyment that you had creating a product really works. I think it's partly to do with this effort thing we've been talking about, but I think there's also something in that people like it when people enjoy their job. So there was a study with an SEO specialist who did Facebook ads, and in one variant of the ad, they shared how much they enjoyed being an SEO specialist. That got more clicks. A study in a canteen in a university, where a chef wrote on half of the weeks that this brownie is their favorite thing to bake versus just saying this brownie is incredibly popular. So a social proof one. The brownie got way more sales when the chef said it was their favorite thing to make. And then another study with a pet grooming service. So where they're dog washers basically and dog groomers. Again, same thing happens when the groomers say that they really enjoy their job, They get more sales. And I was so fascinated by this. I found it really interesting that Danny and I worked on my own experiment where we could test it. So I'd written a playbook with my colleague or collaborator, Caitlin Bourgoin, and we've been selling this playbook for the past year with mixed success. And I thought, well, this is a really good thing to run an experiment on. So I split my email subscribers in half. Half of them just received an email from me with a video saying, talking about the playbook. Saying, would you buy it? And then the other half received a very different email, an email and a video that I would never create if I hadn't heard Danny's studies in the past. Basically, the video was like, I had such great fun working on this ebook. It's probably the thing that I enjoyed most this year. All of that is true. It was genuinely something I really enjoyed creating, but I'd never shared it before because I never thought it would be useful for people to hear. The results were really interesting. More people clicked on the link when they heard my enjoyment variant. Fewer people unsubscribed and increased my sales by 6 times. Now, I should say that the sales in the control was just one, only one person bought and then 6 people bought in the variant. So take that with a heavy pinch of salt, but it's quite incredible to me that it had that increase in the amount of sales and it definitely had some sort of effect. So I wonder if next year something like that, that sort of idea might start to take hold.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWe're often quite audience-focused in our messaging. We think we need to talk about what's in it for you. We need to talk about why this brownie will be the best for you. It's got the lowest carbs or it's made with the best ingredients or whatever it might be. What Danny Zane's studies suggest that we can actually talk about what this product means for us. We can talk about how we enjoyed creating it and that actually might get more sales, it might convince people more. So I wonder if that could be something that happens next year. I think that's quite a nice note to think about, that sellers or communicators can talk about the enjoyment they had creating something, and that actually might be more persuasive than a standard message. I love Phil. That's just amazing. Showing genuine enjoyment in your work actually drives better results. Who knew that authenticity would be a business strategy?
Leanne ElliottMe?
Al ElliottOf course you do.
Leanne ElliottNo, I know it is really cool, and I like that as well. They're just talking about some joy and positivity. I'm here for it, and that's what I'm hoping to see a bit more of in 2025. And I can't imagine anything's gonna happen next year that would stop that, right? We're fine. Um, I would also like to think that, um, that research like that will help business owners and entrepreneurs to fall back in love with their work. It has been a really hard few years, um, and I think we're all just a bit tired. So hopefully we're having some time now to rest, recover, um, and come back with some energy and hopefully with a bit more joy for 2025.
Al ElliottYeah, hear, hear. I think what's strange is that everything we've heard so far points to this fundamental shift in how we work. Our final expert brings it all together by showing us who will be driving these changes.
Leanne ElliottSonia Thompson is an inclusive I think 2025 is going to be another reckoning in that organizations are going to have to deal with people's differences in who is in the workforce, right? And right now in the US, we're leading up to an election, a very important election that people are talking about. And I think part of of what we're going to see is who is going to be showing up to vote, right? There are different demographics than what we have been accustomed to in previous years. So, when it comes to work, there is a different— that who is showing up to work is evolving. We've got an older generation that's probably moving out of the workforce, or their role maybe is like the numbers of them.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne Elliottare getting smaller in terms of the workforce. We've got younger generations moving in, and we know that younger generations are much more diverse than their previous generations.
Al ElliottAnd these younger generations are much more vocal than their predecessors were.
Leanne ElliottGen Z is much more vocal than millennials and Gen Xers and boomers, right?
Al ElliottThey're much more likely to say, excuse me, this That work for me, right?
Leanne ElliottAnd so, as we think about all these changes that are happening in the world, all this trauma that's happening in the world, and a change in people's values and where work fits into that, in addition to just the natural changes in the population that we have, and which impacts the workforce, more and more of the workers in the workplace will be part of minority communities. So we're going to start to see more and more of that happening. Organizations need to be prepared that this is not your parents' workforce, right? It's a different workforce. And how are you going to evolve so that you're not like forcing people to assimilate because they're not going to do it. And if they're doing it, they're not going to do it for very long. So how do you adapt and evolve your workforce or the culture of your organization for today's workforce. That's the prediction. Organizations are going to be forced to have to deal with it in 2025 and beyond. But like, I think 2025, we're going to see like a major shockwave in terms of the ways in which people stand up for themselves and what it is that they need and direct their own path versus just taking what the company says that they have to do. If there's a business owner listening, a leader listening going, Sonja, you're right. Is there anything I can do now to maybe help with that transition, addressing that? Is there any advice that you'd give to people? Talk to your people. Talk to your people. Don't feel like you have to figure it all out on your own. That's a really tall order and a great way to get stressed out, to get frustrated, and to not deliver what it is that people need from you. It's always better to co-create with the people that you're serving. And in this case, it's your workforce, your team members. So, ask them, what is it that they need to achieve success? What is it that they need to bring their full selves to work?
Al ElliottWhat is it that they need to feel like they belong?
Leanne ElliottAnd don't be afraid to ask, like, how is our current culture or our current way of operating? Does it work for you? What ways in which could it better work for you? And the more you ask those questions, you get feedback. And the more you invite them into helping you find solutions that work better for them, that work better for everyone involved, the easier it will be for you to evolve and create a better environment and better experiences for everyone. I love it. I love it. I love it, Sonia. Gen Z are here. They're diverse, they're disruptive. And if we want to get the most out of them, we need to engage them. And having conversations sounds like a pretty good start to me.
Al ElliottThat's it for part 1 of our predictions. And we have covered an awful lot of ground already. Looking at these predictions together, 2025 seems to be about finding this sweet spot between between technology and humanity. For business owners planning their 2025 strategies over the break, here are 3 key takeaways. Number one, first, AI isn't going to replace humans. It's gonna make human skills more valuable. Secondly, the businesses that thrive will be those that can adapt quickly to change. And thirdly, authentic human connection might be your secret weapon in an AI-dominated world.
Leanne ElliottJoin us next week on January 2nd when we kick off 2025 by exploring workplace culture, well-being, and leadership. And if you're writing your business plans for next year, you won't want to miss it. We'll be hearing from leading psychologist and TEDx speaker Dr. Audrey Tang, career coach Katie O'Malley, and the one and only Rob Kalvarovsky, who brings us a bold prediction on asshole bosses. If you are listening to this while dodging another round of Monopoly with the family, um, thanks for spending part of your with us. Don't forget to subscribe as well so we can get you out of a similar pickle, similar pickle next week. Uh, we'll be bringing you the full unedited interview of psychology legend John Amici, and also watch out for the unaired hot take on Jordan Peterson.
Al ElliottAnd of course, we're back with part 2 of our predictions episode on the 2nd of January, so we'll see you then. Happy Christmas, New Year. I've forgotten where we're up to. This is, this is Boxing Day. Happy New Year! Happy New Year! See you soon.
Leanne ElliottAmy is also cautiously optimistic and predicts that business— Amy is also cautious— Amy is also cautiously optimistic and predicts that businesses— oh my God. Amy is also cautiously optimistic and predicts the businesses that finally can get that one out. Yeah, couldn't.