Episode 170 · 11 February 2025 · 40:36
Are You Being ‘Floodlighted’ at Work? PLUS! Why You Need a Micro-Niche, featuring JLD - This Week in Work, 11th February 2025
Are You Being ‘Floodlighted’ at Work? PLUS! Why You Need a Micro-Niche, featuring JLD - This Week in Work, 11th February 2025
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Floodlighting: The Toxic Boss Tactic
news roundup#toxic-boss#management#workplace-culture
Basecamp's Profit-Sharing Model
news roundup#basecamp#profit-sharing#business-model
Why Napping Boosts Performance
news roundup#napping#performance#productivity
Hot Take: John Lee Dumas on Micro-Niches
Workplace Surgery: Hotdesking Rights for Neurodivergent Employees
workplace surgery#hotdesking#neurodivergent#workplace-accommodations
Workplace Surgery: New Manager Avoids Negative Feedback
workplace surgery#feedback#new-manager#management
Workplace Surgery: Coworker Takes Credit for Your Ideas
workplace surgery#credit-taking#ideas#workplace-conflict
Show notes
Floodlighting, Profit-Sharing & the Power of a Nap — featuring JLD
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down the toxic boss tactic known as "floodlighting," why Basecamp's cash bonus model is putting equity to shame, and the science behind why a 30-minute nap can boost your performance. Plus, John Lee Dumas drops his hot take on why specialization is the future of work, and Leanne tackles three workplace surgery questions on hotdesking, negative feedback, and credit-stealing coworkers.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Floodlighting: The toxic boss tactic you need to know If your boss singles you out, magnifies your mistakes, and embarrasses you publicly — congrats, you've been floodlighted. Leanne explains why this behaviour is so damaging and why it's really just "rule one" — don't be an arse — dressed up in fancy terminology. Source →
2. Basecamp's profit-sharing model puts equity to shame Instead of handing out "someday" stock options, Basecamp gives employees real cash bonuses — and this year, over 20 staff members got six-figure payouts. Al breaks down Jason Fried's thread and why immediate cash might beat the promise of future equity. Source →
3. Why napping boosts performance (and the wild science behind it) Researchers at Weill Cornell Medical School found that even a short 30-minute nap can significantly improve cognitive function. Leanne's on board with the science — Al remains skeptical (but he does love a nap). Source →
🔥 Hot Take of the Week: John Lee Dumas on Why Specialization is the Future
John Lee Dumas (JLD), host of Entrepreneurs on Fire and author of The Common Path to Uncommon Success, breaks down why generalists are out and specialists are in. His prediction: work is about to become incredibly specialized — and the key is finding a micro-niche you can dominate.
More from JLD:
- Listen to Entrepreneurs on Fire wherever you get your podcasts
- Books & new YouTube project: EOfire.com
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Hotdesking nightmare: A neurodivergent employee struggles with the unpredictability of hotdesking. Is this legal? And if so, how can they make it work?
- Negative feedback avoidance: A new leader admits they sugarcoat constructive criticism and end up redoing their team's work. How do they tackle tough conversations without losing trust?
- Credit-stealing coworker: A listener's extroverted colleague keeps getting credit for their work, but they don't think it's intentional. How do they fix this without sounding petty?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
What's Next
This Thursday, we sit down with Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier, one of the world's top experts on resilience. Think resilience is just about "pushing through"? Think again. MH shares science-backed strategies to protect well-being, avoid burnout, and stay at the top of your game.
And next Tuesday, we're back with more This Week in Work!
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
John Lee DumasNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottWelcome, welcome. Hello. How's your week going? First of all, the chair opposite me is empty, and— but Leanne's on the screen. Leah, where are you?
Leanne ElliottI'm in Malaga.
Al ElliottBeautiful.
Leanne ElliottDo you want more? I'm in Malaga.
Al ElliottYeah, tell them.
Leanne ElliottUm, I've, I've just, just come for a little trip, a little time in España, one of my favourite places in the world. Um, it's been fabulous, um, but I'm home tomorrow. I'll be back soon. But your background looks a bit different as well, Alistair.
Al ElliottYeah, while you've been away, um, I have done a studio refurb. Basically, I've put up a load of timber. It's because we rent here, so we can't put anything on the wall. We can't fix any of the walls, but a timber frame, hung new lights, hung new teleprompters. Not got the background done yet because Leanne's got the car. Well, the car is at Sarajevo Airport, um, so I can't go out and buy stuff. So I have to wait for Leanne to come back so we can buy stuff.
Leanne ElliottOh, because you didn't want to give me a lift.
Al ElliottYou say give you a lift, it's a 5-hour round trip.
Leanne ElliottIt's a 4-hour round trip.
Al ElliottAnyway, regular listeners will know that every Tuesday, just like today, Leanne and I bring you a roundup of the latest news in work culture, plus a hot take from an industry expert, and then the The world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery is where I put your questions to Leanne.
Leanne ElliottYes, and then every Thursday we bring you a brand new interview with an expert guest who knows how to create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottLeah, what time is it in Malaga?
Leanne ElliottIt's my favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup. Al, cue the jingle.
Al ElliottJingle has been cued. What have you seen this week, Leah?
Leanne ElliottI've got a new word.
John Lee DumasGo on.
Leanne ElliottFloodlighting.
Al ElliottRight.
John Lee DumasFloodlighting.
Al ElliottI know what a floodlight is.
Leanne ElliottWhat do you think it is in the world of work? Guesses.
Al ElliottOh, in the world of work, maybe when someone floods you, your inbox with a load of tasks in an attempt to make you look like you might not know what you're doing?
Leanne ElliottNot quite, but it's not far off. It's not far off. Apparently floodlighting is when a manager singles you out, magnifies your mistakes, and embarrasses you in front of everyone. Being a bit of an asshole, basically. Apparently, if you have experienced that, then you have been floodlighted. So yeah, basically, this is an article that I saw in a magazine, actually, like a fashion magazine. But it said that it's when a boss shines a massive spotlight on everything you do wrong while conveniently ignoring your wins. So basically, if you make a small mistake at work, instead of handling it quietly, your manager kind of calls it out in front of the team, has a bit of a tizzy fit, making it look like your job's on the line. This comes from an expert, a workplace expert called Matthew Cook. Who explains that this kind of behavior is usually about power. Bosses who feel insecure or need to assert control will often use floodlighting, and apparently it's more common than we think. 1 in 5 employees have been shouted at by a manager, and nearly half of UK workers have quit over bad leadership. So this term, as I said, has been coined by Matthew Cook, culture and people specialist, a mental health first aider, and a practitioner of nonviolent communication and immunity to change coaching. He also, Al, and I think you'll, you'll click it all click into place now. He also co-hosted the number one business podcast, Eat Sleep Work Repeat.
Al ElliottOh, Adam Grant.
Leanne ElliottNo, no.
Al ElliottBruce Daisley. Bruce. Sorry, Bruce. Sorry.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So he spent loads of years with Bruce diving into, into what makes work work and doesn't make it toxic. So what do you think, Al? Floodlighting.
Al ElliottThere's all these fancy terms for basically just being a bit of an ass. Um, and I don't really understand why we need all the terms, but I suppose, do you know what, I have a theory that we have these terms because people who are writing articles or doing social media stuff need a flashy term, and that's what they've decided to make it up. So that's my thinking, but I don't know. Um, I think just don't be an arse. That's really sort of like the best management behaviour, isn't it? Management advice.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's rule one really, isn't it? Rule one. Um, but apparently if your boss is floodlighting, then Matt suggests that you shouldn't fight fire with fire. calling them out publicly, try raising it privately. And if that doesn't work, it might be time to escalate it either to HR or somebody else, or probably more than likely time to be polishing up that CV. Because mainly he says if an organisation allows this type of behaviour, then it really tells you everything you need to know about the culture, which, you know, that's my favourite definition. So yeah, there you go, Al. Floodlighting. What have you seen this week?
Al ElliottAs you know, I occasionally go on X or Twitter or Twix, as I call it, Um, and, uh, there's one of the guys I follow on there called Jason Fried. Um, he's the guy who runs Basecamp, formerly 37signals. Um, and he's just got so much, so many good things to say, and I really like the guy. He just seems like a really decent guy. His co-founder, David Heinemann Hansson, a bit more opinionated, perhaps, perhaps can be a bit more polarizing, but Jason just seems to be like, yeah, cool, everything's cool, and he does really cool things. Now, as I explained, Basecamp used to be called 37signals. They also created a couple of amazing books like Remote, which is, I think it's called The Remote: Office Not Required, way back in January 2013. So they were so ahead of the curve. And Rework, another great book. I can't remember if it came before or after, but both of them basically essential reading for anyone who wants to build a different kind of organization like 37signals is. So talking of doing things differently, both of them— this is David Heinemann Hansen, one founder, and Jason Fried, the other founder— they don't offer equity to employees and never have. Now, just for context, They used to be around about 35 employees. Now they, they're about 70, I think, 7-0. So, um, they're, they're like, you know, not a huge company, but they're a significant company. They've been going for about 25 years. They do many millions in revenue and many millions in profit. So instead of offering equity, they offer cold hard cash. And this week Jason opened up on X on how the profit sharing actually works. The link is in the show notes as always. What I love about this is it's proper money, not like Silicon Valley fairy dust they call equity that may never actually materialize. Remember WeWork? There were lots of people who worked there who got plenty of equity on paper, had made, you know, loads of money, but actually got sweet fa. This is real money and they share it with their team and they've been doing it for about 25 years. Here's the bit that made me sit up and notice. This year they gave 6-figure profit shares to 20 employees. That's not 20 employees sharing a 6-figure. That is each of the 20 employees getting 6 figures as a bonus. That's over a third of their staff. And we're not just talking about the techies here. This includes, 'cause Basecamp, just in case you don't know, Basecamp is a SaaS, a software as a service. It's project management and it is all online. This actually includes customer service, HR, everyone who's across the entire organization. Even the newer staff got 4 or 5-figure sums when, when they worked out the profit share. But here's what I really love about this. It's not some sort of maybe one day when we IPO promise. It's not shares that might be worth something if Elon Musk decides to buy Basecamp, which by the way, he never could because Basecamp have always said we want to stay private and never will sell. It's actual cash that people can spend on actual things like houses, holidays, or whatever people want to buy with a 6-figure bonus. Basecamp this year has added— well, last year has had an amazing year. Revenue is up. Costs are down thanks to D-A-H-H-S— sorry, DHH, David Heinemann Hansen. I should have just said David Heinemann Hansen, it's easy for me to say. Because he's managed to reduce the server cost significantly. If you're a nerd, go and surf him and you'll see like he's talking about bare metal stuff. So, but instead of stuffing it all in the bank or splashing out on a fancy office with a ball pit, they're actually giving it back to the people who made it happen. Oh, and the bonus, this is the clever bit. The bonus is based on the tenure of the employee. So someone who's been there for longer gets more regardless of their seniority or their job title, meaning that someone in support, for example, could get a bigger bonus than someone who's a manager of the tech department who actually maybe arguably might have more impact on the actual production, but, and has been there longer, but obviously it's based on tenure. I think it's a great way to reward employees. Well, Leah, here's a question for you. Do you think that a bonus is better than equity? Is there some kind of like psychological thing behind it?
Leanne ElliottIt's a tricky one really, because it all comes down to the intrinsic motivation of the individual, and some will be more motivated by ownership and others by financial gain. I'd imagine the key is going to be consultation. It's going to be transparency around the process, and it's going to be following through on what you— doing what you say you're going to do. So making sure that that psychological contract doesn't get broken. We've all been in situations where we've been promised once you hit this, you'll get X amount of money and it doesn't happen. So I think the key is really, regardless of whatever way you do it, is making sure you follow through. But I think given the times, given the current climate, cost of living crisis, all the uncertainty, I'd imagine that majority of people would be much more motivated by having that financial, um, that financial reward, that money back in their pockets sooner rather than later.
Al ElliottThat makes perfect sense. So if you are— if you're interested in this kind of thing, then We'll put a link in the show notes, but there was a guy we interviewed maybe about November time, um, who's such an interesting guy. Jeff Roberts, his name was, and he basically does the same thing. You can go in there and you can tweak whether you get more money, get more equity, et cetera, et cetera. Another really innovative way of putting things together. So, um, we'll put a link in the show notes, but definitely go and check that out if you're interested in, um, in that kind of thing. Oh, just a quick note. Also go back to Sir Cary Cooper. Um, Sir Cary Cooper, sorry. Sorry, Sir Cooper. Um, if you— I think he talked about incentives and how he was brought in to work out an incentive scheme, and actually it turned out that nobody actually wanted it. Like Leanne says, it's all about consultation and finding what people actually want. Anyway, talking of Leanne, Lee, anything else you've seen this week?
Leanne ElliottGood news, Al! Napping improves our performance at work.
Al ElliottYes, yes, yes! I love a nap.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and this is according to science. This isn't just general opinion, uh, because I think we all know kind of sleep boosts our, our energy, our brainpower. We all feel better after a good night's sleep, don't we? But what if I told you that according to science, a quick nap could actually improve your performance, and that scientists might be on the verge of replicating the effect without actual sleep?
Al ElliottHang on, well, sorry, you were saying that you, what, take a pill or something, or put some headphones on and you can have—
Leanne ElliottWell, something similar, yeah, something similar. So this is from researchers at Weill Cornell Medical School. They wanted to understand why naps boost cognitive performance, and one common theory is that it helps the brain to clear toxins from itself. But it doesn't really explain why a short nap, say like 20-30 minutes, would have the same effect, so leading to those notable improvements in mental tasks. So to dig deeper, the research team worked with some monkeys, and they trained them to complete a tricky visual task. Which is basically spotting whether 2 images briefly flashed on a screen were identical. So if these 2 images were the same or if they were different. Some monkeys then took a 30-minute nap while others rested without sleeping. And when they repeated the task, only the monkeys that had napped performed better. So they then did brain scans on said monkeys, and it showed that while the monkeys slept, their brains produced slow delta waves, which seem to help process information and improve performance after waking. So then the researchers took it one step further and thought, hmm, what if we just kind of found a way to induce these waves? So in another experiment, they applied a small electrical current to the brains of the monkeys who were awake, mimicking the delta waves seen during sleep. And incredibly, this had the same effect as a nap. Their performance improved even though they hadn't slept at all. So it does raise some big questions, really. Could we one day use our brain simulation to replicate the benefits of sleep? Could it be really helpful for astronauts, for shift workers, for anyone who really struggles with sleep deprivation? Or maybe could there be a little machine in the break room where we go to grab a little electronic boost rather than a cup of caffeine? Isn't that cool? Our thoughts.
Al ElliottYeah, I'm skeptical. I'm not sure. Um, I like a nap and I like the idea of a nap and I just, I, I don't want to go and get like zapped to go and to, to recreate a nap. I don't. I know there, I suppose there are some people maybe who like the Elon Musks of the world who, who like for, for every minute it's worth to them a billion dollars. So they'll say rather than have 20 minutes and lose $20 billion, I'll have a, I'll zap myself. I'm going to stick with my naps if that's okay.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think there is an element of, are we just taking— slowly using science to suck all the joy out of life? Like, there's nothing better than like a midday snooze when you really need it. So yeah, and I agree there could be some people that would use this for evil instead of good. But there you go. That is, that is some of the research that's currently happening in the world of psychology.
Al ElliottLovely. So there we are. That is your news roundup. All the links are in the show notes. And we're going to take a very short break here. We'll be back in a second with this week's hot take from the one and only JLD, John Lee Dumas. If you've listened to episode— I think it was episode 2 of our predictions— you'll notice that you'll know how much I love him and how excited I got. We are— he's back on again, so don't go anywhere.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way—
Al Elliottyeah, yeah—
Leanne Elliottand the UK's number one marketing podcast are Both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stories if you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
John Lee DumasSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. As regular listeners will now know, every week we bring you a workplace expert and we ask for their hot take on the world of work. We want bold insights, we want surprising predictions, we even quite enjoy an unpopular opinion. We want to know what is going on in the world of work, what is broken, and what is coming next. Today we are welcoming, welcoming back John Lee Dumas, or JLD as his friends can call him. Uh, he did appear on our prediction episode part 2, as I'll mention. That's episode 159 if you want to have a look back. And this week he is back again with a hot take about the future of work.
John Lee DumasSo here's my hot take about work. It is going to become incredibly specialized over the next 1 month to 10 years. And what I mean by that is you at work can't just be an everybody man, like a jack of all trades. And a lot, a lot of— for a long time, by the way, people were applauded for that. Like companies wanted that. They wanted that flexibility. They wanted people that could maybe put out a bunch of fires or work on a bunch of tasks. No longer. Companies are looking for specialists. They want people who are the best in their field at what they do. Like you did mention my book and I could sum that book up in one sentence, literally in one sentence, become the number one solution to a real problem in this world. And the way that you do that, the way you become the number one solution to a real problem is you identify a micro niche that there's either no competition or there's just poor competition because people aren't focused on that. They're not paying attention to it. They're not fulfilling that need. And you become amazing. You become irreplaceable at your company, at your work, when you are the number one solution to a real problem that your company, that your job has. That's what I'm seeing. That's the trend, and I'm sticking to it.
Al ElliottI love that, like, create your own niche. We did that when we first started. We were the number one workplace culture podcast because, like you said, there was no others, or they were all a bit rubbish. Can you give me an example, perhaps maybe from the book, if you remember any examples of someone who has created this micro niche?
John Lee DumasWell, let me just step back, and I will do that, but I'll first use you as an example, which I don't know a ton of details about your show, but I can just extract it from the short time that we've talked about here. Like what happened? You identified a niche that hadn't been filled. You identified problems that were real in a workplace. And you said, I'm going to create the number one solution to that problem in the form of an, of a podcast. And you've been doing that. And guess who noticed? Um, only one of the biggest, you know, CRM companies in the world, HubSpot. And now you're part of the HubSpot Podcast Network, which both you and I are, and all the benefits that come with that. I mean, I was just at HubSpot's event inbound in Boston, which was this amazing event. I got to speak on stage with Serena Williams, with David Spade, with Ryan Reynolds. I mean, you know, that was this year. 2 years ago, I was on stage with Barack Obama, with, uh, Renée Zellweger, uh, sorry, uh, Reese Witherspoon. I mean, the people they bring to this event are amazing. It's exciting to be able to share the stage with these individuals, and you have got to to be part of this organization because you found a niche and you identified it and you're making it happen. I did that with Entrepreneurs on Fire 12 years ago. I made it happen. And now I'm actually starting a new project right now to go along with Entrepreneurs on Fire. It's a separate project, but I'm reinventing myself in that space with a video show on YouTube where I've found a micro niche that is like a niche within a niche within a niche. And I'm going all in because I know that I can create the number one show on YouTube on this topic because it's a very micro niche topic. And I know that people want content about that and they desire content about that. And I'm delivering it in a daily format, literally 7 days a week because it worked for me with Entrepreneurs on Fire. I have the systems, the process, the understanding, the know-how to do that. And I'm maximizing my strengths. So people that are listening, what I want you to be taking away from that is What are your strengths? Like, know what your strengths are and then identify something that you can just become the best at within your strengths and your interests and your passions. And then you just go all in, you focus, you follow one course until success.
Al ElliottThat's amazing. Is that a secret project or can you tell us about it?
John Lee DumasIt's not a secret project. I'm happy to talk about it real quick and I'll be very brief, but basically, listen, I've been a believer in Bitcoin for a long time. really since 2017. I believe personally that it is perfect money, that it is the best preservation of capital possible. People can disagree with me. They can agree with me. Have your own opinions. That is fine. I have my own opinion. That's my thesis. Within Bitcoin, so you have finance, then you have a niche of Bitcoin within that, which a lot of people hate, a lot of people love, and a lot of people don't care about. And that's fine. Within that niche of Bitcoin, There's a company called MicroStrategy, which I believe is taking over the world because they figured out how to leverage Bitcoin in a way that nobody had figured out before them. And they're doing amazing things. And I won't bore you with the whys and the hows, but a lot of people really are interested about this because it's the top performing stock in the world over the past 4 years. Every single year it killed Nvidia. It killed Google. I love this company. I love their founder, Michael Saylor. And so I am doing a deep dive every single day on the latest and greatest updates on MicroStrategy. The show is called MicroStrategy Today. You can find it on YouTube. And in just 3 weeks I've been doing this show, guess what? I have over 2,500 subscribers. My video yesterday got 10,100 views. These are massive numbers for a micro niche of a show, but I went in and I dominated that niche and nobody's even doing it. So I'm the only show in town.
Leanne ElliottI do really like this idea of doubling down on the thing that you're good at. I think we know now that multitasking isn't a thing, it's attention splitting. So when we take that to kind of a more macro level, it makes sense that focusing our efforts on one thing is going to yield more success. Um, and I think it also makes sense from a branding perspective that you will become more forgettable if you're diluting your professional brand, essentially. And I think that does tie in with a psychological concept called the dilution effect, which can affect people's judgment. So basically, when someone has several pieces of information, some of which are relevant to the judgment to be made while others are not. The very fact that there's a lot of data can mean that an important idea is often overlooked or loses its significance. So it makes sense that that might happen if you have lots of skills or capabilities. Being great at a lot of things could actually make you less memorable.
Al ElliottYeah, I think that's a really good point. I think solving, like you mentioned, these real problems is really important. And I also think that is going to be very important in 2025 and beyond, because if you're known as the person who fixes X in your company and even beyond, then AI is unlikely to come for you and you'll always be irreplaceable. In fact, weirdly, the longer you are the expert, the more knowledge you pick up and the more experience you have of solving that problem, and therefore the more sort of indispensable you're going to become. Just be careful when you do choose your superpower though. Make sure it's something that's pretty sort of like I want to say timeless. You'll know what I mean in a minute. And also platform agnostic if it is something around software. For example, don't be the expert in, say, PowerPoint because PowerPoint might go away or it's a very sort of like very narrow thing. Be the expert in creating amazing presentations from data that someone gives you that look great and also tell a really good story. And that way you can kind of do it in Google Docs. I think it's called Google Present or something. You can do it as a brochure, you can do it as a PowerPoint, or even like an animated explainer video. So that's, if you're really good at being the person who does X, um, and you make sure that X thing is sort of like agnostic, then I think you're gonna, you're gonna be very, you're gonna be in demand.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. I think it's always finding ways to make your skills transferable, isn't it? That is the key to longevity in any career. Um, excellent, excellent thoughts and advice and insights there from JLD. Um, if you want to find out more, uh, you can find John's podcast. Just search for Entrepreneur Entrepreneurs on Fire wherever you get your podcasts. And find out more about his book or follow along on his new YouTube project, just head over to eofire.com.
Al ElliottOkay, on to my favorite time of the week. It's time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Just in case you haven't worked it out yet, Leanne is a chartered occupational psychologist with decades of experience helping organizations create amazing workplace culture. She also hates when I say decades because it makes her sound really old. And it's her job to give our lovely listeners advice on work-related problems. So this is the first problem, Leanne. I'm neurodivergent and I'm in hot desk hell. My team has switched to hot desking and I hate it. I'm neurodivergent and I need my own dedicated space to focus. So I spoke to HR and they say it's company policy. Is this even legal? And if it is, any advice on coping with constant uncertainty? around which desk I'll be at on any given day? Lee, tough one.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it is a tough one. I think the main thing is that as a person who is neurodivergent, it's up to you whether you decide to disclose that to your employer under the framework of disability. And I know that's often very uncomfortable for a lot of neurodivergent people because it's— they don't necessarily see themselves as having a disability, they just have an atypical way of thinking. That said, if you are comfortable to do that and declare your neurodiversity as a disability, then you will be covered by disability law, which will then mean this whole ridiculous company policy around hot desking won't affect you. Your organization will have a legal obligation to make reasonable adjustments to your working environment, and that will include giving you a set desk, equipment, working times, whatever it is that is going to facilitate your very best work. I would maybe see if HR haven't, haven't really given you any answers, see if you've got an occupational health team that you can talk to, or even occupational health service that your company uses, or indeed go back to HR with the view that you are now deciding to define your neurodiversity as a disability so that you can get these reasonable adjustments that will facilitate your work.
Al ElliottBeautiful, beautiful. I think there's— I know when I was reading it out, I knew I could tell there was gonna be a problem. HR said this is company policy. Is this legal? And of course, that very much depends on where you are in the world, uh, because there's different laws. Uh, perhaps spin back a couple of episodes to Tony Llamos— uh, sorry, um, Llamos. Sorry, Tony, I always get that wrong. Tony Llamos, um, who started a company.
Leanne ElliottIs that Oyster HR?
Al ElliottYeah, Oyster HR. He started this company, Oyster HR, um, and that helps you to be compliant in, in all different countries. It's kind of like a, I suppose, HR as a service. Harass. No, that's, that's not the right— we should not be using that, that acronym. HR as a Service, AAS, is what I went for. But no, forget, just forget all of that. So the idea is, so if you want to find it's legal, then definitely go and check out Oyster HR because it's definitely worth having a look at. Interesting stuff, Leanne, interesting stuff. I, I wish— if you are listening and you are neurodiverse, can we have a few more questions from you? Because we don't often get those sort of questions and they're interesting. And also I like how it opens up Leanne's, um, uh, Leanne's occupational science mind. I think it's really cool. And if you are neurodiverse, then Leanne, there are probably 50 episodes on our pod, aren't there, around neurodiversity?
Leanne ElliottThere's a lot around neurodiversity. Yeah, absolutely. Going right back to, I want to say, maybe even episode 30 or 40-something with the incredible Dr. Nancy Doyle. Um, so well worth going back to that, either if you are neurodivergent or if you're a business owner who employs people who are neurodivergent. It's a really nice introduction type episode.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Okay. So the second question I've got here is, new manager hates giving negative feedback to their team. I became a manager for the first time a few months ago, and it was always my dream to be the world's best boss. I've had some pretty crappy bosses in my time and also in this company. Understandably, they didn't want me to read their name out or the company. However, one aspect I'm struggling with as a new manager is giving feedback when it's not positive. I keep sugarcoating everything because I want to be liked, but I know I'm not helping my team as they keep doing the things the wrong way and I have to stay behind after they've gone and redo the work the right way. How do I get better at having difficult conversations like this?
Leanne ElliottTraining, really. Investing in your own learning and development is going to help you have those more difficult communications. Basically just advancing your communication skills and, and, and how you approach it. By the sounds of it though, the nuance in your question around that you're having to redo the work, It sounds like actually it's more of a process-driven thing than a performance-driven thing, and that's often much easier to deal with because it's more practical. And I think for what I would say in that situation, it's worked for me in the past, is to maybe sit down, whatever you think is best, either one-to-one or with the team as a group, and just say something like, I think there's been a bit of confusion around this process. I'd just like to go through it with everybody just so we all know we're on the same page to, to get it done right first time. And I think typically people are, they'll be a bit like, oh, eye-rolly at processes because anything around paperwork or admin or compliance is a bit frustrating, isn't it? Equally, it's one of those things that people aren't really going to take personally if they've just got a process wrong. So I think it sounds more like in this scenario, you've actually got a fairly simple way of managing this conversation in a very transactional, practical, practical way. In terms of having more difficult conversations, this is really something you're going to have to work on as a manager because you're not there to be their best friend. You're not there to to kind of do their work for them. You're there to guide them and help them be the best that they can possibly be. I think often a really nice starting point is to understand what the individual's motivations are, aspirations are, career goals are, what they see their strengths are. Something you do typically in an annual review, which isn't really always drilling down into their current performance. It's also looking at the bigger picture of where they want to go, and with that, they're going to identify their own weaknesses or their own areas for improvement. For example, if you're working with an employee and they say, yeah, my attention to detail isn't very good, I need to work on that, particularly when it comes to the administration part of my job. Then if you're finding that this is what's impacting the process, you can say to them, Leanne, I know we've talked about this. I know you've identified it yourself that attention to detail is really tricky. So with that in mind, do you mind if I just kind of bring you things where I think maybe you have had that oversight? They'll be like, of course, that's absolutely fine. Then you've got that permission. You bring it to them and say, look, this needs to be doing blah blah blah blah blah. So the point being that you've you've identified those weaknesses or areas for improvement in consultation with the employees. Ask permission ahead of time to point out any things that that could be useful feedback in terms of them improving those skills, or indeed you should be giving feedback when they've absolutely nailed something. So if they've had a really detailed presentation to do and they've got it 100%. right, you equally want to be praising them as much as you're taking them feedback. Um, and I think if you get into that pattern over time, you'll start to build more trust, you'll start to build, um, more of a relationship with this person where you can start to be a little bit more direct. But I think in the early days, it's— that's a good approach to do, is in consultation, um, and with their permission, um, if it is more of a performance-based issue.
Al ElliottI think that's a really— I really like this idea of just saying, look, I know you all know when knowing in the back of your head that 70% of people don't know. That's a really nice way of just not having to pull someone out individually. Let me ask you a question then about this, because there's a guy called Derek Sivers, um, who started CD Baby. He's written a great book called Anything You Want, I think it's called. Um, I must have read it about 5 times. It's a phenomenal book. And one of the things he did, because he's very much introverted, he says, I don't want to be a manager, I don't want to be a boss. One of the things he did was whenever someone asked a question, he stopped the entire room and said, right, okay, I'm going to answer this. Someone write it down. I'm going to answer this now so that we all know. And then that person writes it down and adds it to a little sort of internal wiki. That seemed really disruptive, but it seemed to work for him. I mean, is that a decent strategy?
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think if there's multiple things that aren't happening process-wise, or people are getting wrong, or indeed you're in that part of of startup or scale-up where processes are still being developed, um, then yeah, I think that's a useful way of, of doing it. Obviously, it's going to depend on the situation and the nuance of it, whether you want to stop in that exact moment, um, or whether it be that as a manager you make a note of it and you add that to the, to the internal whatever, um, you know, once a week or something. Um, but yeah, it's finding those little, little hacks, isn't it? Again, I think with something like that though, it's worth kind of saying to the team, how should we handle this? If a new process comes up, or if we want to agree a way of doing something, what's the best way for us to agree that together so we're all on the same page, everyone gets the communication at the same time, we all know how to do it right? I think there's always general principles with these things, but ultimately, if you take that to your team and ask their opinion, then they'll probably, one, be a bit more— they'll buy into it a bit more because they're being consulted of that change and of that process. But also, if there is an obvious reason where that would be really impractical, that maybe you haven't thought of from an operational perspective, asking your more frontline employees is useful because they might go, actually, that wouldn't work because of X, Y, and Z, but we could do A, B, C.
Al ElliottLovely. I don't want to do you out of a job, but it seems that— it seems like really the principle is to ask people what— ask people what they think, listen, and then take on board the stuff which is good. I mean, almost everything you say is just consultation.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. Shh!
Al ElliottOkay, right, we'll cut that bit out. Don't worry, don't worry, you'll still have a job. Okay, question number 3: Coworker is accidentally taking my credit. Okay, I do like my job and the team I work in, but I've got a bit of a strange situation, this person writes. My coworker keeps getting credit for my work in meetings and presentations. They're much more extroverted than me and better at selling ideas to management. They've put selling in those little bunny, you know, little inverted commas. The problem is I really like this person. I think they'd be mortified if they knew I was upset about this. They just naturally take the lead in meetings, and because I don't say anything, management assumes this idea is from this person. How do I address this without coming across as petty or worse, upsetting this person? That's quite cute, isn't it? They sound like they, they really care about them, but it is a bit of a strange situation.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think the key thing for me in that question was that that you think that person would be mortified if they knew. So it sounds like this person isn't, isn't an asshole. They're just a bit more extroverted and aren't perhaps realizing the impact of their behavior in the meetings. I'd have a conversation with them, just chat to them and say— and I always explain it from the perspective of you rather than your behavior and your preferences rather than theirs. So you could say, You know what, Jo, I am quite introverted and I am quite reflective and I find it hard to respond immediately with the meetings because I need time to digest the information I've got. So with that in mind, what I found is I'm having some trouble getting my ideas across and because of that, there's been times where you've spoken up and that's meant that, you know, the idea has been credited. I know that wasn't your intention. I know a lot of that is on me for not speaking up in that moment. I'm just wondering if there's a way that maybe we could work together to kind of rectify this and make sure that, you know, we're all as a team getting the credit and individually getting the credit. I think it's just having that conversation with them initially. If you don't want to do that, and I understand because it is still a bit of confrontation, my thought would be to go to your manager and explain the same thing and say, look, I'm quite introverted, I'm quite reflective, and I often have ideas outside the meeting. And I'm sure that, you know, you've met people like that before who just think a bit differently. I'm wondering if there's a way that I can bring my ideas to you ahead of time potentially. So for example, if I have an idea, maybe I can just drop in an email once a week with some thoughts I have. Not that they need your immediate response, but maybe in the meeting we can pick up on them. That could be an idea of kind of flipping that process. And really it's going to come down to if you've got a good manager, they might have already spotted this. They might have already spotted that your performance is really great, but you're very quiet in meetings. Often it's that dissonance that a good manager will pick up on and go, okay, I need to find another way to have these conversations, um, or communications with this person to understand what they're thinking, what they're contributing, and, and what problems they are solving or need solving. So I think this is really a case in, in the first instance of a conversation, either with the colleague that you mentioned, if you're comfortable to do that, or if not talking to your manager. And I think it's getting more and more common now that people will understand the differences between introverts and extroverts. It's not about confidence, it's not about being shy, it's about processing energy, it's about the way you think. And a really simple way to think about it is that I'm an introvert, so as an introvert, I will work through a problem 80% in my head, and then I'll go and talk to somebody about it when I'm— I've got 80% of that solution there. I just want that extra 20% to help me validate the solution that I think I've come to. So similarly, in a meeting, if somebody presents me with a problem, I'm not going to talk out loud that 80%. I'm going to completely internalize it, so I'll look quiet. On the flip side, Al is very much an extrovert, so he will take that problem and process 80% of it out loud and then use the last 20% of it to validate it internally. So in a meeting situation, he's going to look like full of ideas and full of energy, um, And it's just that kind of social construct we've got ourselves into. The world of work favours extroverts, but that is being re-educated in people, I think, and the good managers especially are picking up on that. So I think knowing that it's, it's normal, it's not that it's an unusual situation. I think there's actually technically more introverts in the world than there are extroverts, not by much, but a small couple of percentage points. So yeah, know that. take that with confidence. It's just the way you process information and problem solve or ideate. That's the way it is. Um, and the more you can share that about yourself with the extroverts around you, uh, the more they might be inclined to help facilitate a way that you can present your ideas in a way that is comfortable for you, effective for you, and gives you the credit that you deserve.
Al ElliottBeautiful, beautiful answer as always. Anything to add, do you think, before we sort of say goodbye to these lovely people?
Leanne ElliottNothing to add.
Al ElliottYou guys have a phenomenal week. We will see you again on Thursday for an interview with— let me just have a little look, uh, who've we got on Thursday?
Leanne ElliottThis Thursday is a good one. We've got Dr. Marie-Hélène Pattelia, um, or MH as she likes to be called. She is one of the world's leading experts on resilience, um, and if you're thinking that resilience is just about kind of pushing through, you really need to think again after this interview. Um, so MH's research shows that resilience isn't a one-size-fits-all fits-all approach. It's something that you can build strategically in a way that works for you. I've never heard about resilience talked in that way before, um, in terms of strategy. So definitely, if you're a business owner out there that sometimes thinks all this is a bit— trigger word— fluffy, then this is definitely one to tune into.
Al ElliottFabulous. And of course, we're back next Tuesday with another This Week in Work. Talking of helping, if you really want to support the show, uh, then maybe tell people about it. Uh, You could post on Twitter, you can post, you can comment below if you liked it. If you didn't like it, comment below, tell us what you didn't like about it. Um, and, uh, and also LinkedIn's a good one if you wouldn't mind just sort of a little post saying I'm listening to Truth, Lies and Work podcast, tag us in, we'll probably send you something nice. Uh, we might not though.
Leanne ElliottNo, we will, we will, we absolutely will, we absolutely will. Um, but yeah, until then, we'll see you on Thursday, we'll see you next, next Tuesday. We're very predictable like that— Tuesday, Thursday, Tuesday, Thursday. But yeah, All the, all the things in the show notes that are usually there, um, are there again. Um, how to contact us, how to get to the show, how to follow us on socials. And if you are struggling at the minute, um, there's some resources there as well. You're giggling at me, Al.
Al ElliottJust made me laugh. You just tickled me. Uh, I'm looking forward to seeing you, my love. We will see you all next week. And if you're watching on YouTube, then hopefully either next week or the week after, the Thursday or Tuesday, we'll have a new background and a new studio.
Leanne ElliottAll very Very exciting.
Al ElliottSee you soon.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye.