Truth, Lies & Work

Episode 192 · 29 April 2025 · 54:02

Will your job exist in 2030? PLUS! Mindful maneuvering and why Gen -Z isn't the problem, with Sophie Wade – This Week in Work, 29th April 2025

Featuring Sophie Wade

Will your job exist in 2030? PLUS! Mindful maneuvering and why Gen -Z isn't the problem, with Sophie Wade – This Week in Work, 29th April 2025

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  1. Mindful maneuvering: the new leadership buzzword

    news roundup#leadership#future-of-work#job-market

  2. 21 job titles predicted to disappear by 2030

    news roundup#job-market#future-of-work#automation

  3. What actually makes employees stay? It's not perks

    news roundup#employee-retention#workplace-culture#perks

  4. Hot Take with Sophie Wade: why Gen Z isn't the problem

    hot take#gen-z#workplace#leadership

  5. More from Sophie: leadership in an AI world

    news roundup#ai#leadership#future-of-work

  6. Workplace Surgery: can business owners put their wellbeing first?

    workplace surgery#wellbeing#business-owners#work-life-balance

  7. Workplace Surgery: is 50% staff turnover in two years a red flag?

    workplace surgery#staff-turnover#hiring#red-flags

  8. Workplace Surgery: what to do when your employer isn't helping you grow

    workplace surgery#career-growth#employee-development#coaching

  9. Outro and what's coming next

    outro#podcast#outro#preview

Show notes

Will Your Job Exist in 2030? PLUS! Mindful Maneuvering & Why Gen Z Isn't the Problem — with Sophie Wade

Guest: Sophie Wade — work futurist, empathy advocate, author of Empathy Works, and host of the Work in Progress podcast.

The World Economic Forum predicts 21 job titles could vanish by 2030. So what should you be doing now to future-proof your career?

Sophie joins Al and Leanne to share her hot take: workplaces need to stop blaming Gen Z for cultural clashes and start adapting leadership styles to match a new world of work. She argues that Gen Z's expectations around flexibility and flat hierarchies aren't entitlement — they're a response to a fundamentally changed world. And in an era where information is no longer power, relationships and trust are the new currency.

Plus, Leanne introduces "mindful maneuvering" — the strategic, empathetic art of influence — and the team digs into new research showing recognition, not perks, is what actually makes employees stay.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Will your job exist in 2030? The World Economic Forum's 2025 Future of Jobs report predicts 21 job titles could disappear by 2030 — from data clerks and bank tellers to postal service clerks, bookkeepers, and even travel agents. Al breaks down which roles are most at risk and how to future-proof your career without panicking. Source →

2. WTF is mindful maneuvering? Leanne introduces a new leadership concept from WorkLife: mindful maneuvering — the strategic, empathetic art of influence. Forget manipulation; this is about guiding, building trust, and moving teams forward with positive intent. Source →

3. What actually makes employees stay? (It's not perks) Recognition, not bonuses, is what really makes employees stay, according to a fresh Inc.com piece. Leanne explores why simple, specific, frequent praise can do more for engagement than any expensive perk — and why you can't fake care. Source →

🎙️ Hot Take: Why Gen Z Isn't the Problem — Sophie Wade

Work futurist and empathy advocate Sophie Wade shares why workplaces need to stop blaming Gen Z for cultural clashes — and start adapting leadership styles to match a new world of work.

Key points Sophie explores:

  • Gen Z expects flexibility and flat hierarchies, not because they're entitled, but because the world changed.
  • Information isn't power anymore — relationships and trust are.
  • Human-centric leadership is no longer optional.
  • Speaking up shouldn't be punished if you say you want independent thinkers.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

  1. Wellbeing: "Can business owners really put their health and family first without letting everything fall apart?"
  2. Turnover: "Is 50% staff turnover in two years normal — or a red flag?"
  3. Development: "What do I do when my employer isn't helping me grow?"

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

More From Sophie Wade

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work, will your job be obsolete in 5 years? According to the World Economic Forum's 2025 Future of Jobs report— catchy title— about 92 million jobs will become obsolete by 2030. Is your job title on their list?
Leanne ElliottAs a business leader, are you keeping your best people? Well, new research shows that recognition, not pay or perks, is the biggest factor in whether employees stay or leave.
Al ElliottAnd in this week's Workplace Surgery, can business owners really put their wellbeing first? One listener shares what it's like to run a company and still feel like you're losing touch with your own health, family, and life outside of work.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing We'll be diving straight into this week's episode right after a very quick message from our sponsors.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. It's Leanne's favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottYes, it is. Cue that jingle, Al.
Al ElliottIt's being cued. Whilst that's being cued, Leanne, what have you seen this week? I have a new word. You always have a new word. Go on.
Leanne ElliottI have 2 words actually.
Al ElliottOkay. 2 separate words or one 2-word phrase?
Leanne ElliottLet's find out. We ready?
Al ElliottThat made me chuckle. Well done. Well done. Nice. Okay.
Leanne ElliottMy words are mindful maneuvering.
Al ElliottNow, how are you spelling maneuvering? Because it's a tough word to spell anyway, but the Americans leave some vowels out, whereas the UK one, it's like, it's like a bingo on Countdown. You get like hundreds of vowels in it.
Leanne ElliottYou'd get a high score on Scrabble the way I'd scored it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSpelled it. You know what I mean? Anyway, came up, um, in a WorkLife article by Tony Case. Uh, so he was writing about a new book by former Google exec Jenny Wood, who apparently openly admits to using manipulation as a management strategy.
Al ElliottControversial.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, the word manipulation does make us all feel a bit uncomfortable, doesn't it really? And rightly so, because it seems like there's some, some malicious intent there. But as the article goes on to explain, what Jenny Wood and the experts quoted in the piece are really talking about here isn't manipulation, it's influence. And the way they describe it, I thought was actually kind of useful. So we have an organizational psychologist— we like them— Caitlin Collins from Better Works. She reframes this manipulation as mindful maneuvering. So mindful maneuvering is the intentional, empathetic art of guiding others towards shared So it's not about pushing people or playing games. It's just about understanding what motivates the people you work with and using that to move things forward.
Al ElliottAl's thoughts? I'm all for this. And by the way, it's usually marketers who like come up with legal little terms like this where they'll, where they'll like find something like, do you remember in The Big Short, the movie The Big Short?
Leanne ElliottLove that film.
Al ElliottYeah, I've watched it twice. Still don't understand it. But how they, how they rebranded some toxic bonds into something that was a bit cooler. So it's not— so I'm surprised it's a psychologist, but I'm kind of pleased that they're getting on board. That in itself is possibly a little bit of mindful maneuvering.
Leanne ElliottMaybe it is, maybe it is, but I think that the key difference here is, is the intention behind it. You know, managers do need to influence behaviour. Psychologists, they need to understand behaviour to understand how to influence behaviour and create positive change. So it's, it's all about the intention here. And there's actually a really, um, good example from a coach called Francesca O'Connor. She worked with a senior leader who always held what he called the meeting before the meeting. You call it something else, Al, don't you?
Al ElliottAs we learned a couple of weeks ago, it's one of those corporate buzzwords called pre-wiring the meeting.
Leanne ElliottYeah, pre—
Al Elliottstupid name.
Leanne ElliottSo the meeting before the meeting. Um, so yeah, it's not to sway people or pressure them, it's to check in, understand what they're worried about, answer any questions. So when the actual meeting comes around, everyone's feeling included, ready, um, and, and there to make some, some decisions. So as I said, I don't think it's really about, um, manipulation, it's about influence. And that influence can be empathetic, it can be respectful, And can work to get stuff done.
Al ElliottInfluence is such a powerful thing. I talked about it last week as well. Robert Cialdini's book Influence is like, it's a seminal tome, I believe it's been described as by me just then. But yeah, influence is incredibly important for anything, whether you are trying to change behaviour, lead people, sell, market. Influence is great, but obviously you can take it the other way, as we found out with certain people who I can't remember his name, but he's, um, Romanian prison, all round.
Leanne ElliottAndrew Tate.
Al ElliottYes. All round bad guy. Uh, so, and he's got influence, but it's more of a, do you know what? It's Machiavellian maneuvering.
Leanne ElliottOoh, nice.
Al ElliottYes. Rather than mindful maneuvering.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottSo yeah, just be really careful with that. But as great leaders have influence, you remember back in the days when you had a job that your boss, John, you absolutely loved him. And why'd you love him?
Leanne ElliottBecause he was really nice.
Al ElliottAnd he also, he influenced you in so many different ways, both from the way he behaved and also the ways that he taught you. So yeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah, he did. And that's a good point actually to emphasise from the article. Caitlin Collins, who is our organisational psychologist, she did make it clear that this only works if it's paired with emotional intelligence and ethics. Otherwise it is just self-interest. So there you go. Mindful maneuvering. I will leave a link to the article in the show notes. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottWell, your job will be gone in 4 years.
Leanne ElliottYours will.
Al ElliottTo be fair, Podcasters already. We already potentially— yeah, if you, if you use Notebook LM from Google, um, then you can basically upload a couple of PDFs or even a PDF and it'll generate a podcast you can listen to where 2 hosts will talk about the PDF. Not as good as this one though, because they don't come up with terms on the fly like Machiavellian maneuvering.
Leanne ElliottExactly.
Al ElliottWouldn't like to spell it anyway. So according to the World Economic Forum's 2025 Future of Jobs report, about 92 million jobs, roughly 8% of total employment, will become obsolete by 2030. 30. That's not far away. That's what, 4 and a half years? McKinsey Global Institute predicts that AI and automation— of course, we all knew that was coming— could eliminate up to 12 million jobs in the US and Europe within the next 5 years. However, it sounds bleak, but they also anticipate the creation of 170 million new jobs, representing 14%. So if we do some basic maths there, which is probably not the right maths for this stat, but essentially it's not saying we're getting rid of jobs, we're just Basically, 8% of people are gonna be changing to one of these new jobs, which can take up 14%. Now, most of these are sort of involving predictable, repetitive tasks, data processing, that kind of thing. There was a couple which surprised me on there. Any thoughts and guesses about what will become obsolete?
Leanne ElliottUm, stuff that AI can replace, I guess. Some customer service type stuff.
Al ElliottYep. Yep. So they had bank tellers, they had data entry, they had postal service clerks. I dunno what the, what the, what the US Postal Service is like, but In the UK and also in Bosnia, I hate going to the bank or the post office because you just queue up for hours and there's nothing going on. There's always one person working and 3 other people chatting over a cup of coffee. So yeah, I can definitely see that working. Um, there's also things like administrative assistants, executive secretaries. Yes, I can see that. It's almost here because if you've got some— someone who's recording your meeting, an AI is recording your meeting, they can summarize that, you know, really well.
Sophie WadeMm-hmm.
Al ElliottOne thing surprised me, but now I think about it, maybe it doesn't, was accounting, bookkeeping, and payroll.
Sophie WadeMm-hmm.
Al ElliottIs that some, I mean, I suppose on some level you can see that, yep, that might be taken because it is just data analysis. Probably a bit more accurate. So I can see that. But I do think that they'll be moving up into a more supervisory role of the AI agent because you can't just feed a load of numbers in and go, great, okay, let's go and make a load of bit, load of decisions on that. Let's go and pay the tax bill that AI's worked out. Lee, travel agents was on this list. Now we travel quite a lot.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottI suppose we've never actually used— have we used a travel agent?
Leanne ElliottNo. Well, we, we kind of started booking our own travel in our 20s, didn't we, when it was all online, so you wouldn't have to go down to your— maybe as a teenager I booked a holiday through a travel agent a couple of times, um, 18, 19, you know what I mean. But now the only thing I would pay for is maybe more of a personalised thing, because it takes a lot of time to book your own stuff. It'd be nice to just say to someone, just do that for me. Or like the luxury— what was the name of the guy who we had on Sideways Life?
Al ElliottUm, James something.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUh, yeah, basically he did, uh, for the rich and famous, he booked their entire holidays. So there was— there's a guy called— what's Gary Lineker's brother called? Wayne?
Leanne ElliottWayne.
Al ElliottYeah, guy called Wayne Lineker, who's quite famous in the UK and also in one of the Balearic Islands because he's got a nightclub there called Lineker's. Um, and so this guy planned his engagement And so he wanted to be underwater in a, not underwater, but in a cafe or a restaurant underwater. Sorry, not cafe, restaurant underwater. He wanted the shark to come past with a ring in its mouth and all that kind of stuff.
Leanne ElliottClassy.
Al ElliottI don't think that really happened, but, and so I can see that. And I could also see travel agents just rebranding and going, we're an experience agent now.
Leanne ElliottOh.
Al ElliottSo yeah, so we are going to, you know, if you do want something really special, we'll put that together manually, but otherwise, An AI agent probably can very much quicker can find out what you like and find a holiday that matches you. Anyway, really quickly then, let's go on to what the article said that you can do to avoid this happening. So there's 3 sort of key things you can do. First of all, you can learn skills that companies actually want. So a bit meta here, but understanding AI basics or being really good at making sense of data or problem solving, something which AI can't— well, it's good at problem solving, but—
Sophie WadeYeah.
Al ElliottIt's kind of difficult to put— if you've got experience, I think you will trump AI. AI's got some great ideas. You don't need to become an expert overnight, this article says, but being comfortable with those areas does give you a huge leg up. The second thing it says, and I really like this one, stop obsessing over job titles and focus on what you're genuinely good at. I really like this. And the final one is don't put all your eggs in one basket. Have a side gig or freelance work or some kind of other income so you're not Totally stuffed if your main job disappears.
Leanne ElliottI think it makes sense. I don't think it's a new thing. You know, think how much jobs have changed over the past 20 years, 50 years, 100 years. Yeah, it happens. I think, as you say, it's keeping yourself up to date, trying to reskill where you can, and just be a bit less precious about the kind of work you do. We might all just need to pivot a little bit in the future.
Al ElliottLe, anything else that caught your eye this week?
Leanne ElliottI saw a new study that asked what actually makes employees want to stay. not just tolerate their jobs, not quite quit, but actually want to stay engaged and perform. And it is the question that we help our clients answer. So yeah, this week an article by Jeff Haden on Inc.com caught my attention for focusing on one very important way of engaging your employees that isn't really talked about enough, I don't think— recognition.
Al ElliottYes. Oh yes. Now we're talking. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo the article was titled Want Better Employees? Richard Branson says you need to start with one simple strategy and revisit—
Al ElliottThat's a clickbaity title, if anything.
Leanne ElliottIt is.
Al ElliottYou've slotted Branson in there as well.
Leanne ElliottIt's not succinct, but it is clicky. So yes, it revisits a quote from Branson that so many of us would have heard before, that the way you treat your employees is the way they will treat your customers, and people flourish when they are praised. So Hayden's point is that while this sounds like common sense, many businesses still don't act on it. They focus on perks and benefits or tech, but overlook The human basics— being seen, being valued, being appreciated. We all like to be appreciated, Al, don't we?
Sophie WadeWe do.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Um, he also draws on some Gallup data to show how serious the gap is. So currently, 55% of US employees say they never receive recognition. Only 3 in 10 say they've been praised in the past week. And those who feel invisible, well, they're twice as likely to leave. The article also outlined what meaningful recognition looks like based on organizational research. The article also outlined what meaningful recognition looks like based on organizational research. So first of all, recognition needs to be specific. It needs to be tied to a clear action or behavior. Recognition needs to be frequent. It needs to be given in the moment, not months later. It also needs to be personal, tailored to that individual and how they like to be recognized. And it needs to be impact-orientated, so showcasing the positive effect on their work. And there's a bit Jeff really emphasizes here as well— recognition Only works if it's genuine. If it feels like a box ticking exercise, people switch off. You can't fake care. Um, you just, you have to mean it. Al, what do we think?
Al Elliott100%. I mean, it's just obvious, isn't it? When you think about the best jobs, um, the best companies that you like, suppliers. So if you buy something, think about a brand that you just like, yeah, okay, I love them. You, it's often you'll have had a really nice encounter, like on your, on your birthday. Can I say what number birthday it was?
Leanne ElliottOf course.
Al ElliottYeah. On your 40th birthday, we went into a department store, like a really fancy department store.
Leanne ElliottHarvey Nichols. Yeah.
Al ElliottIn the UK. Went up to your favourite counter, your makeup counter.
Leanne ElliottOne of, yep. Fenty.
Al ElliottYep. And basically you were buying just a couple little bits and I said, look, it's Leanne's 40th birthday here today. Is there anything you can do? And she went, of course. And basically went, got a bag and filled it up full of lots of little goodies and stuff and gave it to Leanne. How do you think Leanne, that was recognition for buying from that. How do you think Leanne feels about that brand now?
Leanne ElliottVery committed to said brand now.
Al ElliottVery committed.
Sophie WadeAnyway.
Al ElliottBack to the people. Yeah, you can't fake care. Everybody knows a boss who's a bit slimy. You go, I just don't trust them. This is great. I'm slightly disappointed they've not created the framework called SPIFF, which is specific— what was that? The 4 of their specific impact—
Leanne ElliottLet's move on. We don't need any SPIFF in our life.
Al ElliottOkay, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottReady to snort. I think the point is, I understand that, like, giving praise can just feel a bit vacuous and a bit warm and fluffy and Thank you. And whatever. Thank you. Um, but the point is people want to feel like they're appreciated. Of course we want to feel like we're appreciated, otherwise what's the point? And I think what's really interesting about the conversation around recognition, I think over the next 12 to 18 months it's going to really expand and it's going to talk about much more about those individualized personal solutions, being recognized as a whole person. So whether, you know, I'm not just, um, a woman, I have— I'm a wife and I have dogs and I have Parents who are a bit older and, you know what I mean? All of those things that I recognise what you need as an individual to do your best work. I think that's gonna really, yeah, really be focused on the conversation.
Al ElliottThat's something I hadn't considered before, Leanne, the recognition. I was just thinking like rewards, so you recognise someone, but recognising them for being individual.
Leanne ElliottI never even—
Al Elliottdo you know what? We've been talking about this for about 5 years and I've never once cottoned on that that was it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, recognition also will include things like organisational justice, so making sure that people know that decisions around promotion, development made fairly and clearly and transparently, because then people understand that they're getting the recognition they deserve. So, it's not gonna— it's gonna kind of beat off any feelings of imposter syndrome, like, why me? Why am I being chosen to be promoted or invested in? But also, for those people who maybe didn't get that promotion, that they're recognised and being shown to recognise what development they might need in the future, or what point they need to get to to get that development. So, there's a lot to recognition, But I think the personalisation of it is gonna be really key, especially in a world with AI.
Al ElliottFabulous. That's brilliant. All the links are gonna be in the show notes. If you've seen an article or maybe you've written an article that you'd like us to talk about, check out the show notes. hello@truthliesandwork.com is the email and just send it over to us. And if it's good, we'll talk about it. If it's— if we disagree with it, we'll still talk about it. Remember that guy who kicked off with you because you disagreed with his article and he sent you an email going, I didn't like that at all, or a LinkedIn message?
Leanne ElliottIt was a woman, actually.
Al ElliottOh, was it?
Leanne ElliottYes. I do. I did offer for her to come on the show, but she declined. So there you go. But if you look at the show notes of a certain episode around childfree bosses, you'll see a little editor's note in there.
Al ElliottInteresting. Interesting. Okay, so after this very, very short break, we'll be back with the incredible, the queen of LinkedIn, the incredible Sophie Wade with her hot take. And I think you're gonna like it. See you in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. If you are a regular listener, you'll know that every week we ask a workplace expert to share their hot take on the world of work, something we should all be thinking about a little bit differently. This week we're talking about Gen Zed because it's been a while.
Al ElliottGen Zed. Every freaking week we talk about Gen Zed.
Leanne ElliottWe've not talked about Gen Zed for a while.
Al ElliottNo, to be— and to be fair, they are, you know, They are the biggest consumer of podcasts. So if you're a Gen Zed, say hello. Just let us know. Just drop us an email or get on LinkedIn or something.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOr Snapchat. Go on Snapchat. That's what you use. You guys use Snap. Snap me. Don't do that.
Leanne ElliottSo everyone's got an opinion, including ours, that all Gen Zeds use Snapchat. Although my feeling is that's more of a younger millennial kind of thing. But tell me if I'm wrong. Um, but yeah, Gen Zed, we all have opinions. They're entitled, they're hard to manage, um, or maybe they just lack the right attitude to work. But what if Gen Zed isn't the problem? What if it's you? Well, for today's hot take, we're joined by Sophie Wade. She is a work futurist, empathy advocate, and host of the Transforming Work podcast. Her work focuses on helping leaders build workplaces that are ready for the future, not stuck in the past. Sophie is here to explain why understanding this COVID generation properly isn't just important, it's critical if we want to grow our businesses.
Sophie WadeSo, my hot take is really some concern about the sort of the youth. employment and 16 to 24-year-olds or Gen Zs, and the concerns that people have about the economic inactivity of this group particularly. And it has been around the world for me of concern, this, whether it's Gen Z 2.0, Gen Zed 2.0, the COVID generation, the COVID you know, the cohort that have really been disrupted by the pandemic. I think companies really need to be paying attention to this cohort. It's a large age group, never mind the generation, but the people who were at the end of secondary school, high school, and in college, going into college and university and coming out and had the first years of their working experience during the pandemic. This group really does have some greater issues connecting. They What they know is working from home, that what they know is being more sort of separated, isolated potentially. But there are these social interactions, and I'm not blaming any phones. I'm like, that was what they knew. That's what they had. That's how they were able to connect. But they do do things differently. A lot of it really is actually manifesting the future of work, and they understand the future of work a lot better than most people, but they don't have any of these other experiences. And there is so much blame or criticism or titles, entitlement and lazy and different work ethic. Well, they have grown up in a very, very different situation. Their circumstances were very different and how they've had to try and upskill themselves when they didn't have great education in high school, university. So I think that's the group that I really want people to be paying attention to because we cannot ignore them. That group of people—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Sophie Wadeis the fuel, that's the engine of companies' growth. Whether, particularly if you are a sort of smaller organization, you have 100 to 500 people, you need to get to galvanize those people, energize them, and engage them. And there are different needs that they do have to try and overcome some of the gaps, some of the things they missed out on during those pandemic years.
Leanne ElliottAnd what impact has that COVID impact had that makes it different to other generations? Because millennials were entitled, the Gen X were slackers, the baby boomers were rebels. It seems to be that youth, we use these words to describe this disruption or different way of operating. How is this COVID generation different?
Sophie WadeYes, the youngest generation or have always been potentially maligned for not having the work ethic in general. However, there are a couple of things about this group, this sort of the early career professionals now as an overall, before we talk about the pandemic, which is very much to do with how much technology understanding and education they had. So it also includes, I would also include in that, The younger millennials, the older millennials didn't necessarily have a really digitized education, but the younger ones did and all of Gen Z. So they've had smartphones in their hands for a long time. They've mostly had laptops in school. And so they're very, very comfortable and intuitive with technology and they've had access to extraordinary amounts of information. So the information power pyramid, as I call it, when I went into the workforce, you couldn't find out information about companies. Maybe you had a friend at a bank who could sneak off and Xerox a copy of the 10-K of the company. That was the only way you could find out about a company. Now everybody has information, and so the information power pyramid has collapsed. Therefore, if you are my boss or my boss's boss, I have the same information as you for the most part. And that really changes the dynamics and sort of flattens how people feel in terms of hierarchy. And then companies have also flattened their hierarchies to be more nimble. So that really changes the dynamics between senior and the most junior employees. So I think there are some very different situations circumstantially and economically and technologically that are really making it different for this generation and how disconnected they have been. So very, very connected Technically, but also disconnected from what was before. This generation really is much more separated and much more isolated in terms of how different they have experienced the world. And that's why I think we are seeing some conflict and dismissiveness and complaints. What is it? I think it's 75% of managers don't want to hire Gen Zs or they find them the most difficult to work with. And 17%, I think, of managers are hesitant to hire this group. Well, that doesn't work. Saying, I'm just, I don't find that they're really engaged and understanding the work ethics, You know, let's look a little bit closer and find out what's going on because that's what we need to do in order to really engage and align with these folks and understand what they can contribute and how to get them contributing.
Leanne ElliottWhat's your thoughts then on these managers who don't wanna hire, don't wanna work with Gen Z?
Sophie WadeThe way I see it, that it can be very much a win-win because The way that leaders can step up and really start to have a human-centric way of leading, it benefits everybody. And that way it's much easier for everybody to be working together across multiple generations or wherever people are on their career arc, because that really is the sort of what changes how people approach work. However, that is very different from how we have worked In the past, we have, you know, there were phrases like, you know, it's not business, it's not personal, it's business. Well, business is personal. And we really, really saw that during the pandemic. We saw into people's homes and lives and we understood more about them and we got raw and real together. That's what we need to do more of now to try and connect with this group. And that helps everybody. We don't have to be friends, but we just have to relate to people better and listen more carefully and be checking in to see what's going on and giving people flexibility to understand who they are and how they work best. And that will benefit everybody and it'll benefit performance across the board. So, the things that I suggest are really appropriate for everybody, all generations, everybody in the workforce, but they're really, really important for helping bring and connect and engage the particular, the youngest cohort. I think one of the interesting disconnects that I find is that, for example, one of the complaints about Gen Zs are they speak up, they say things that they should be keeping quiet. Well, they're taught by their parents who are Gen Xers and boomers to speak up, to advocate for themselves, to be independent, to be self-starters, So if the manager or leader has a Gen Z child, talk to them, ask them, because those are the people who are in the workforce who are very like their own kids and who have been raised by parents quite like them in many cases. Asking them, thinking about them, and connecting with what their experiences are. If you ask more questions and you really start to dig into where some of these differences come from, why people have some of these different ideas or perspectives, that's when people can connect. And there are a lot of aha moments and it really can bring people together because the more people have common ground and more people can see each other's perspectives, it's so much easier to work well together and communicate with much more clarity and achieve Good results.
Leanne ElliottThat is a fantastic Sophie Wade. I will leave a link back to an episode that she did right in the early days of the podcast and shared some wisdom there, and probably some predictions that have now come true. The key thing is, you know, Gen Z have grown up in a completely different way in terms of the world of work. Their expectations have been just shattered and crushed in, and not even Formed. You know, it is— work is more flexible, it is more technology-led, it is less hierarchical. So it's not necessarily about a poor work ethic, it's about workplaces being slow to adapt. If you're a tech native, you're not going to tolerate an organization who has clunky tech that slows them down. That is going to make them frustrated and make them appear entitled. The fact is you need to invest in in these things, not only for your business, not only to attract the best talent, um, but also to have a chance of surviving in a world of AI. And let's not forget about MAP, who were on episode 127, who have built an entire organization by just recruiting Gen Z.
Al ElliottYeah, definitely go and listen to that episode, 127. I think you'll, you'll really like it. This is, this is your bag. The other thing which I think was quite interesting and we need to consider as managers or business owners is that we're no longer the source of power in, in terms of information. Like, in terms of thinking or actual data or whatever, AI can make a junior employee just as good as us because they can have access to the same information. They can plonk the same information into ChatGPT or Claude or whatever and come up with the same strategies that we would've come up with. Because, Alex, we've kind of shot ourselves in the foot because my generation has been writing online to become thought leaders. So we've basically put all our thinking out there, which AI has consumed.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLike me at a buffet, all-you-can-eat buffet, consumed it all. And so now they know how to think like us. So this does break down like the hierarchy. No longer it's like seniority or title. It's just you need to basically earn your place as a leader with influence, like we talked about before, trust, collaboration, and of course, recognition.
Leanne ElliottYes. And I think this is the key now. If leadership isn't about holding the knowledge, then it is about the relationship building. It's about the listening. It's about the flexibility. It's all those really essential parts of good management that have been overlooked For so long, and I want to shift from soft skills to core skills because I think it's just fundamental human-led leadership in an AI world. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. And I think as well, what managers are going to be grateful. Yes, AI has the information. We still need somebody who's going to help us connect the dots, and that's going to come from somebody who has experience, who has emotional intelligence, who understands the strategy that is needed in the organisation and what what needs to be achieved. So I think yeah, this leading with empathy and adapting to the individual, as we've talked about again with recognition, isn't just going to be. good for Gen Z, it's going to be good for everybody. All of us are in no doubt that work isn't what it used to be, and pretending otherwise ain't gonna help. Um, and actually, Sophie put it really nicely. Um, she said, we're not waiting for the future to happen, we're already living it.
Al ElliottThat woman can talk. She's got some lovely, uh, lovely turns of phrase.
Leanne ElliottGoosebumps, that one. Um, if you want to hear more from Sophie, and of course you do, you can find Sophie Wade on LinkedIn. Explore her LinkedIn Learning courses. She's got some good ones on Gen Z and how to engage and manage them. And of course, her podcast, Transforming Work. You can also subscribe to her newsletter, Work in Progress. Everything you need is in the show notes.
Al ElliottYeah, I think with her learning courses, if I remember, there's like 52,000 people who've taken them, or maybe 520,000. There's a lot of people who've done them. Very, very good. Okay, so we're on to my favourite time of the week, which is the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne, who's sitting over there. This is your first time here. Leanne's a business psychologist or organizational psychologist, or you call it in America, is it industrial and organizational psychologist? Catchy. Uh, but basically she knows everything about creating an amazing workplace culture, and I'm gonna put the questions from listeners to her. So question number 1, can business owners really put their wellbeing first? Since launching my business 4 years ago, I've been neglecting my health and personal life. My family feels more distant, and I've realized I'm not the only one struggling with this. How do you make time for self-care and fitness whilst running a business? I've heard a lot about corporate wellness trends, but I'm more interested in real personal experiences. Interesting. I'm always running out of time and tasks pile up. Any advice?
Leanne ElliottYou, you, this is very normal. Very, very normal. And I think there's a couple of things here. First of all, and this is a bit of tough love, you haven't run out of time. You've just chosen to prioritize other things. And sometimes that's what we need to do when we're building a business. But as you're starting to clearly see, this isn't sustainable for very long because it starts to impact our mental health and we start to burn out. Now, the weird thing about when we're struggling psychologically is it's not— our body and brain reacts in the most unhelpful ways possible. So, when we're stressed, stress hormones increase. That triggers our threat response and, you know, that fight-flight type thing. Um, so that threat response basically means that we start to withdraw. We start to become more isolated. We start to become more isolated from the people around us, from our fam— family, from our friends, from our colleagues. And what we know about wellbeing over long periods of time Is that social connection is one of the most powerful things you can do to build your resilience. So, your body is reacting in a way that is really fricking unhelpful for your psychological wellbeing. So, with that awareness, it's really essential that you prioritise these times to connect socially with your loved ones, with your colleagues, with your peers. I heard one technique from Ross Simmons who was on the show, oof, Early days, early days. Um, has a fully remote company. I'll leave a link in the show notes. One of his techniques that he had, which I thought was really cool, is he basically took like, right, all the things that I need to fit into my life as a founder in terms of work, in terms of life, and in terms of work, that's also when do I need to fit in time to nurture my team, to work on my culture, to improve myself as a leader. But within that, he built time into his diary. It's like, this is family time. This is friend time, and that is non-negotiable, not getting changed unless the office is literally burning down. This is happening at that time, and it's having that discipline, knowing that as indulgent as it might feel when there's lots of things to do, this is the best thing you can do to rebuild your energy, to rest and recover, to still have the energy you're gonna need to, to keep building your business. That'd be one technique, is to actually put these things in your diary and make them non-negotiable. Yeah. Negotiable in terms of canceling. That'd be things like spending time with your family, spending time with your peers. You know, leaders— leadership is lonely. Look for networking events, look for, um, groups like entrepreneur groups. I will be able to give you much more advice on, on that, but opportunities to be able to speak about your business and your problems candidly to people who fully understand what you're going through because they're going through it too. Finally, I would say engage a coach. And I always come back to this for leaders, but leadership is lonely. Leadership is a lot of accountability, and leadership is tough. All the statistics show us that the mental health of leaders isn't great. All the statistics show us that leaders are lonely, and that loneliness, as I've said, can cause some real, um, serious and significant mental health problems. Engaging a coach gives you the opportunity to speak openly and honestly about things that are working, things that aren't, where you're getting your energy from, where you're getting your joy from, how your purpose is being fulfilled, that one person in work who's doing your head in and you just need to vent about it, and then actually come up with a constructive action plan of how to move that forward. I can't express enough the power of speaking to somebody who knows how to listen. Um, and if it is at a critical point, we do always leave the number for the Samaritans in the show notes, which is a fantastic listening service. So that would be my, my kind of 3 points of advice. One, set aside time in your diary, and it's non-negotiable that this doesn't happen. This will not get cancelled. 2, look at events, groups where you can meet your peers to learn, share, um, and not be so lonely. And 3, engage a coach to have that Set aside practical listening, constructive action planning time. And if it does ever slip into something more critical, and it can very quickly and very easily, um, the Samaritans is a really good resource.
Al ElliottFantastic answer. And I would say just a, just a little addendum to those number 2 and number 3, that could be part of the problem. You're saying you're running out of time and your tasks pile up. Perhaps your expectation is too high. Um, and I know, 'cause I've done this myself, so this is not preaching or anything. I've done this yourself. You go, right, okay, well, you know, I think I remember when I was 22, I was like, all right, I wanna be a millionaire by the time I'm 25. I was actually bankrupt by the time I was 27, so it didn't really go that well for me. Uh, but subsequently made some money. That's, that's a different story. But the difference is that I was like, okay, everything's got to happen, right? This has to happen. So this week I'm gonna do all these 9 goals and I'm gonna achieve every single one of them. That just meant that I was working 20 hours a day. I was sleeping in the warehouse. I genuinely was. I was sleeping in the warehouse, built myself a little bedroom in the back. Um, And it was just such a miserable, miserable time. I was unhealthy, I was lonely, I was unhappy. Um, and I was almost pleased that we went bankrupt because I was like, thank God for that. I don't have to do that anymore. So there's that. So the second and third part of what Leanne said, one, go and, go and talk to other business owners. Yes, but take what they say with a pinch of salt because entrepreneurs tend to be optimistic by nature. So they'll often go, yeah, well, these are the 9 things we're gonna do this week. And it's like, they'll actually only do 3 and probably feel the same as you. And, and the last part, go and get a coach. Don't confuse a coach with a mentor because a mentor is someone there to help you to get to the next level. So they will be pushing you to move up, which then just adds more and more stress. And your temptation is, oh, I'll go and find someone who's mega successful and I'll learn from them. Yes, you can. But let's be honest, they're gonna tell you 16 things that you need to be doing in your business that you don't even have time to do the stuff you've got at the moment, let alone these new things. So whereas a coach is someone who'll sit there And they will go, all right, well, what's important? And what happens if you didn't do those 8 things that you've got on your to-do list and you just did the one thing really well? I think that's the final bit of advice I'd give to, as a fellow entrepreneur, um, even though I think all of us hate that term, it's a bit cringey, but, uh, as a fellow entrepreneur, is that, uh, it's much better to do one thing really well than 5 things really shit. There you go. There's my thoughts.
Leanne ElliottGood advice, Al.
Al ElliottOkay. Question number 2, is my staff turnover high? I like questions like this because they They're kind of like, a lot of people have these questions, go, I don't know. So I am a business owner and I've been thinking about whether our staff turnover is something I should be worried about. For context, I run a medical supply distribution business in Canada. Wondering if the tariffs are affecting you right now. Right now, roughly 50% of our employees leave within a 2-year period. On the flip side, we do have a solid group who've been with us for 5 years or more, around 30% of the team. But honestly, I'm not sure how that compares. Is 50% turnover over 2 years considered high for a business like ours, or is that pretty normal these days?
Leanne ElliottYes, it is a bit high. I'm sorry to tell you. When you said 50% over 2 years, maybe, I don't know. Even if you said 25% over 12 months, right? I know it might not be the same, but it's kind of the same.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. Anything over 20% is a bit of a red flag because it Yeah, it kind of suggests there's a reason that people are leaving, particularly in that timeframe of 2 years, which is, yes, if you're employing younger people, they tend to hold shorter times in a role, but equally, the fact that you also then have this core group of people suggests that there is something culturally here that is happening to have not been able to bring the talent in and keep them, but have this kind of hardcore loyal employee group. So, yes, anything over 20% is a little bit high. A nice point, I mean, different organisations will have different targets. I think 10% is usually about right and about reasonable in these times. Also, be careful that you distinguish between turnover and voluntary turnover. So, for example, a lot of organisations won't necessarily include people in turnover figures who have gone back to university to retrain or have decided to give up work to travel the world or go and have a family. It's turnover in terms of actually moved to a similar job in a similar industry, different industry, same job. So, that might adjust your stats a little bit as well. I think it's a real problem at this point if you're asking the question, because clearly it's causing a little bit of tension, uncomfortableness in your business. Otherwise, you probably wouldn't have noticed and be asking if 50% was right or not. Mm-hmm. The problem seems to be that you're not able to hold on to new hires for more than 2 years, and that's an expensive problem to have because it means that every 2 years maximum, you're going to be finding new, new people, recruiting them in, training them up. That costs 4 or 5 times the salary that you're recruiting in for, and it takes you 12 to 18 months to recoup that cost. So yeah, it's commercially a problem, culturally it's a problem, morale is a problem, and I imagine performance is a problem as well. This is really a time to start looking at employee engagement surveys, employee analytics, to figure out how people are thinking and feeling about your business and how that is impacting performance outcomes, including turnover. My spidey sense as a psychologist thinks that you're perhaps from a company where it has grown quickly, has recruited a lot of new people in, and they've There's a cultural mismatch between the legacy employees, the kind of old school employees, and the new people that you're bringing in. And over time, this tension and this dissonance is meaning that people leave because they don't think they can change and influence it. My feeling is we might have some toxic superstars in here. We might just have a disconnect in terms of what the current culture is and how you want to articulate that in terms of your, your reason, um, for the business, the mission of it, um, and how that's achieved. They would be my guesses, but to know for sure, you need to run an employee engagement survey to really understand what's going on.
Al ElliottYeah, and I think what Leanne's saying there, obviously amazing advice, Leanne. What I'm saying there is that the data, I mean, Leanne's all about the data, so it would also be interesting to plot particular dates of when these things happened and then also start discounting or marking off. I don't know, I'm sure there's a clever person who can do it. ChatGPT will be able to do a nice graph on this, nice visual on this. But essentially what you would want to find out is why are they leaving? What dates were they leaving? And if possible, some kind of like metrics around about what sort of age range they were. Now, obviously, keep this data very, very private. But what that might do is show you a trend and you go, do you know what's funny is that when we got this, we took on this new client who now is 40% of our business. Suddenly we got a spike in people leaving. Why was that? And just get your data science hat on and go, I'm intrigued. Let's find out why that is. Now, that's something which entrepreneurs traditionally aren't particularly good at, because we're very, very good at being optimistic and thinking about, you know, how everything's gonna be cool and coming up with new ideas. When it comes to that, we might think a bit boring, in which case you need someone like Leanne. And I'm not saying go ring Leanne, you know, email Leanne and get Leanne, but maybe you should.
Leanne ElliottI mean, you could. I do work internationally, but that's not the point.
Al ElliottBut the point was not here was, was to get another gig for Leanne. It was more like, I think you need someone external to come in and look at this without You're sort of without in the back of your head all the emotion, which I think will be, you'll have emotive reasons. You'll be emotive about these people leaving, particularly someone who you really liked and you thought you put a lot of effort into. So I think a third party to come in and have a look at the data, I think you'll find there's probably, you know, 80% of the people who leave are down to just 20% of the issues which you could potentially fix.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And a really good point there, Al, actually looking at these potential temporal landmarks in time of when Temporal landmark.
Al ElliottSentiment might have shifted. Raising my hat to that. Nice.
Leanne ElliottAnother way to do that is to conduct exit interviews with the people that are leaving. Again, I always recommend that you get a third party to lead that interview and then share the information and feedback with you in a way that feels comfortable. Bearing in mind though, this is collecting data after the event, which is useful, but doesn't help in real time. An employee engagement survey is going to collect real-time data, and it's going to predict, not only tell you, kind of show you where your turnover is now and why, but it's going to predict if that turnover is going to go up or down depending on what your culture is currently saying. So, in terms of kind of real-time predictive data, employee engagement is chef's kiss in terms of usable insights. Yeah, looking at these landmarks, exit interviews, Useful, might give you some quick answers, but ultimately you will need to look at more real-time data. Love it.
Al ElliottLove it. Great answer. On to question number 3. My employer isn't helping me grow. Help! What do I do? I'm feeling really stuck at work right now. The company I work for is desperate for people. They're constantly hiring, but when it comes to actually supporting or developing or career growth, it feels like it only happens if you're one of the favourites. If you're not part of that inner circle, there's no real investment in you. No training, no mentoring, no clear opportunities to move forward. The thing is, I actually really enjoy my work. I like my colleagues, I like my customers, but the longer this goes on, the more I'm starting to feel like I have no future here, and it's making me think about leaving, even though I don't want to. So what am I supposed to do when my employer clearly isn't helping me grow, but I don't want to throw everything away and everything I like about the job? It sounds a bit sad.
Leanne ElliottIt does. And there may be people listening that are— I mean, you've made no reference at all to your, your age or what you do, but there may be some skeptics listening that are like, entitled, you need to develop yourself, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The point is, what you're going through is a completely normal psychological response to the situation you find yourself in. It's what I think Simon Sinek calls languishing. Was that Simon Sinek? It's also called rust-out in the literature instead of burnout. It's kind of this stagnation-type thing that has an equal impact and detrimental impact on our, on our wellbeing and our performance. So, what you're feeling is really normal. So, for any business leader listening, if you're not developing your people, these are the normal thoughts and feelings they're gonna have. And when somebody starts to feel like that, as you've rightly said, you start to think about, about leaving, quiet quit maybe.
Sophie WadeYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, my point really is development isn't an area we talk about very often in terms of culture necessarily. We have learning cultures, but that's more in the moment than kind of long-term. It's a key part of recognition we've talked about on this episode a lot actually, um, because developing somebody recognises your, your dreams, your aspirations, who you are, what you want to achieve, why that's important to you. That's a key part of being Feeling recognised as an employee, and that recognition is a key driver for employee engagement. So, at this point, you're not overreacting. It isn't cool that they're, they're fav— you know, showing favouritism towards certain people. My only— before I kind of really, you know, lay into this organisation, have you communicated what it is that you want? Have you communicated how you want to be developed? Have you been somewhat proactive in terms of finding some courses that you might want to do, or A mentor within the organisation or some job shadowing opportunities. So, I guess, is it— are you vocalising what you want? Are you leveraging the development opportunities that are already in place? Or can you be proactive to go to your supervisor, your manager, and say, I would like to spend a week shadowing this person, or I would like to be mentored by you, Joe, in accounts, and have kind of more informal, unofficial mentor programme in there for you. If you're doing all that and it's still not clicking, it is sad because you do like your job and you like the people you work with. Ultimately, it doesn't sound like this organisation is going to change. And the longer you are in a job that you find unfulfilling and undeveloped, that's going to impact your confidence. It's going to impact your wellbeing. It's going to impact your performance, your engagement. It has the potential to be fairly detrimental, actually, if you stay in this job for longer than you should. So, my thought would be, figure out what you want, have those conversations if you've not already had them, and if nothing else changes, it might be time to move on.
Al ElliottI think what Leanne says is very good. You need to— great thing, have you communicated this? Because I think a lot of people just expect that this is what work's going to do, and work just don't even think about you at all sometimes. Um, the other thing I just counsel you on very carefully is that you have like 90% of your job right here. If this 10% is what's really bugging you, just think if you change jobs, you might get, you know, it might not be any better. The grass is always greener and all that. So maybe before you take, take a massive jump, like if you hated everything else about it, they're like, yeah, yeah, go. Before you take a massive jump, then perhaps, as you say, Leanne says, communicate what you're looking for. Ask someone, maybe find an informal mentor.
Sophie WadeYeah.
Al ElliottLike Leanne said, the John in accounts, whoever you mentioned there. Um, this, I mean, this obviously is, I don't think we're going to fix it on this in this like 4 minutes we're talking. Um, but I think just listen again to a couple of times what Leanne's just said. It's just such solid advice. Um, and, uh, good luck with it, Lee. Anything else to add?
Leanne ElliottNo, I think as you said, it's not one that we can, we can solve in a, in a short answer, but hopefully we've given you some action points and things to to do practically as well as to, to reflect on. Um, but yeah, it's— and for any business leader, I will, I will say this again, it's such an underutilized opportunity in terms of investing in people and developing people. And if you want an incredible example of that, go back. And again, I think I've mentioned this episode in, in, um, in today's, is the episode with MAP. 172, 174. 127.
Al ElliottYeah, it'll be in the show notes.
Sophie WadeYeah.
Al ElliottM-A-P, MAP.
Leanne ElliottYeah, their learning and development trajectory, unrivalled. And I know they will happily sit, sit and talk to you about how they're doing. They actually have an apprentice academy now.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul set it up. It's really cool. It's doing really well helping other accountants to, uh, to, to bring in apprentices and develop them and, and not just thinking, oh, they're cheap.
Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly. So it can be done. It can be really powerful for the individual and the organisation.
Al ElliottFabulous. So I think that's all for now. Join us next Tuesday for another edition of This Week in Work, um, and have a little look at our YouTube channel. I keep saying this, but, uh, Leanne's chopping up little videos and seeing how they all work. And if you have your own question for the Workplace Surgery, then check out the show notes. Everything you're gonna need is in there. I bet you've not read them. Go and have a look. Go and read them very carefully, very carefully written and curated. They take you hours each week, Leanne, don't they?
Leanne ElliottThey used to, not anymore. Thanks, ChatGPT. Um, if you enjoyed our guest on this week's Hot Take, and why wouldn't you, Sophie Wade? Is incredible. But if you like that, you'll also love this Thursday. We are joined finally by Nick Huber.
Al ElliottI said, if you've not listened, then 2 weeks ago I was like, Nick's on the show, he's amazing. And then it's like, I was like, oh no, we've recorded it, published it, and Nick's not on the show. He's this week.
Leanne ElliottBut he is now. Nick will be joining us to talk about what it really takes to build unsexy businesses that scale. It's very practical, it's very honest, it's full of little nuggets that Every business owner who's interested in profit more than hype is going to enjoy.
Al ElliottOh, and his book is out today. It's the one which, um, yeah, it's a really good— it's called The Sweaty Startup. Just go on Amazon. I think it literally went on sale. I checked it this morning about 9 o'clock and it was on sale then, whereas it wasn't at 8. So, uh, yeah, I think, I think it's gonna be a number one. I mean, I'm pretty much on Amazon, it said already number one in new releases or something. So it's gonna be a big one. Definitely go and get that.
Leanne ElliottCongratulations, Nick.
Al ElliottYes, congratulations. So, You know what, you know what we're gonna say. Subscribe, click like, uh, send us cash, um, send us messages.
Leanne ElliottUm, if you fancy leaving a review, that's always nice. We had a lovely one recently.
Al ElliottDid we?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOh, you read it to me. Yeah, no, you did.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we did. Um, also just a slight disclaimer about the episodes we're gonna bring you next week. They are full of love and care, but you might be thinking, um, is, is this a bit— thing is we're on holiday next week, so we're prerecording some episodes a bit earlier than we'd normally prerecord them. Um, so it means that some of our news might not be quite as, as news, but it's still really interesting. You might not have heard about it yet. Um, and then on Thursday we're doing something a bit different.
Al ElliottYeah, on Thursday we're bringing you one of our favourite, our favourite interviews from the archive. Uh, it's with Dr. Ceri Hughes, the CEO of Mind. She is an incredible woman. Uh, really, really great interview. Just down to earth, honest, just a really, you know, one of those interviews you come away with going, Huh, I like that, and I enjoyed listening to it. So we're bringing you— we've done a partial of that previously, maybe about a year ago. This is the full interview, so I think you're gonna love it.
Leanne ElliottUm, while you're listening, Al and I will be sipping txakoli and nibbling on pintxos in San Sebastián, having a fabulous time, because why? Everybody needs to rest and recover. I won't be responding to emails. I won't be on LinkedIn. I won't be doing that post from, from the middle of Bilbao saying, what have I learned from my 5 days in Spain?
Al ElliottNo, I'm not doing that. What Pinchos, yeah, what fishy Pinchos tell me about and teach— taught me about workplace culture.
Leanne ElliottAbout business and life. Oh, God. No, I won't be doing that at all. I'll be, I'll be mildly buzzed enjoying the sunshine. I won't be thinking about you all.
Al ElliottNo, she won't. But we will be thinking about you the following week when we're back as normal. So we'll see you soon. Love you loads. Bye.
Leanne ElliottLove you.
Al ElliottBye. Bye-bye.
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