Episode 208 · 24 June 2025 · 54:00
Steve Jobs wisdom, Gen-Z hustle and the perfectionist trap. PLUS! Is your Zoom set-up saying 'I don't care?'
Steve Jobs wisdom, Gen-Z hustle and the perfectionist trap. PLUS! Is your Zoom set-up saying 'I don't care?'
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Intro and News Roundup Kickoff
news roundup#podcast#news#workplace
Story 1: 'Locking In' – Hustle Culture 2.0
news roundup#hustle-culture#productivity#work-life-balance
Story 2: Steve Jobs and Creative Rule-Breaking
news roundup#steve-jobs#leadership#creativity#innovation
Story 3: Perfectionism and Burnout in Tech
news roundup#perfectionism#burnout#tech#mental-health
Hot Take: First Impressions on Zoom – Al's Take
Workplace Surgery: Best Places to Work Remotely and Feel Inspired
workplace surgery#remote-work#workspace#inspiration#productivity
Workplace Surgery: Do I Have to Fake It to Get Promoted?
workplace surgery#promotion#career-advice#authenticity#workplace
Workplace Surgery: What Does Purpose-Driven Leadership Really Look Like?
workplace surgery#purpose-driven-leadership#leadership#values#management
Show notes
Locking In, Creative Rule-Breaking & The Perfectionist Trap — with a Hot Take on Your Zoom Setup
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why "locking in" is Gen Z's new hustle-culture survival mechanism, what Steve Jobs can teach us about creative rule-breaking, and how perfectionism is quietly fuelling burnout in tech. Plus, Al delivers a Hot Take on why your terrible Zoom setup might be saying "I don't care" — and the three fixes that cost almost nothing.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. "Locking In": Hustle Culture Gets a Makeover A new TikTok trend is taking over Gen Z — and it's not just about productivity. "Locking in" is about reclaiming a sense of control in a chaotic world, from rising rents to shrinking social mobility. But beneath the discipline? Burnout, financial fragility, and the risk of swinging from "soft life" to full-on grind. Source →
2. Steve Jobs and the Case for Creative Rule-Breaking Forget quietly climbing the corporate ladder. Jobs reportedly said: be a pirate. Al explores three "rules" creative minds should break — stay in your lane, plan everything in advance, and don't make noise — and why rigid systems might be killing your team's best ideas. Source →
3. Perfectionism and Burnout in Tech New research from Amity University explores how perfectionism is fuelling burnout in top tech firms. High-quality work is being delivered at the direct expense of mental health and wellbeing — and standard mental health policies aren't cutting it. Study →
🔥 Hot Take: First Impressions Are Everything, with Al Elliott
Why your terrible Zoom setup might be doing more damage than you think. Al breaks down the three essentials — video, audio, background — and why looking like you care is more important than looking perfect. Spoiler: audio matters more than video, fake backgrounds are a trap, and a £20 mic beats a £1,000 camera.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Remote work: "Where's a great place to work remotely and feel inspired again?" — From Croatia's digital nomad visa to Thailand's Koh Lanta and Koh Chang, Al and Leanne share personal insights and practical, budget-friendly ideas.
- Promotion: "Do I have to fake it to get promoted?" — When quiet, calm leadership gets overlooked, is the only option to get louder? Leanne unpacks what the science says about introverted leadership — and how to be seen without pretending.
- Purpose: "What does purpose-driven leadership really look like in practice?" — Deadlines, politics, pressure: where does purpose fit in? Al and Leanne reflect on the reality of values-based leadership in complex roles.
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottIs hustle culture making a comeback, just in some slightly prettier packaging? There's a new TikTok trend that looks like discipline but might actually be driving burnout. So what does that mean for your team and your retention?
Al ElliottAre we rewarding the wrong behaviours at work? Steve Jobs once said that the most creative people don't join the Navy, they become pirates. So why are so many organisations promoting rule followers rather than rule breakers?
Leanne ElliottAnd in the workplace surgery, do we need to fake it to get promoted? One listener says that being calm, quiet, and competent just isn't cutting it with her boss. So we're asking, is extroversion still the unfair shortcut to leadership?
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture.
Leanne ElliottWe are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd together we help organisations build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottOkay, we're going to get straight into today's episode right after this very short break from our lovely sponsors.
Leanne ElliottHubSpot's Inbound Event 2025 is bringing together the brightest minds in business, AI, and entrepreneurship. We're talking Amy Poehler, the genius behind ChatGPT, Dario Moradei, and Sean Evans from Hot Ones. Because apparently even hot sauce interviews can teach us about business strategy.
Al ElliottYeah, September 3rd until September 5th in San Francisco. And no, this isn't just another one of those conferences where you pretend to take notes while secretly checking your phone. This is 3 full days of actionable insights that you can actually use to grow your business.
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Leanne ElliottHead to inbound.com/register to see the range of tickets, including VIP options for Fancy, fancy, fancy, fancy. Trust us, your future self will thank you for actually investing in learning something useful. Guess what, Al?
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottWe're gonna be there.
Al ElliottNo, we're not.
Leanne ElliottI am. I'm manifesting.
Al ElliottOh, okay. Yeah, we're— yeah, you can come and meet us there. There you go. That's the reason to, to go and book your ticket today. VIP experience will no doubt include us. I'd imagine they'd invite us to the VIP area. So go and visit inbound.com/register to get your ticket today. Welcome back, and it is Leanne's favourite time of the week. It is time for the news roundup. You always say something at this point, Lee.
Leanne ElliottStart the jingle?
Al ElliottYes, that's exactly right. So jingle is being cued. What have you seen this week, my love?
Leanne ElliottI've got a new word.
Al ElliottOh, I love when you get new words. Do I guess the new word? Completely guess it?
Leanne ElliottSure.
Al ElliottIs it worksharking?
Leanne ElliottOh no, what's worksharking?
Al ElliottWorksharking is when you circle around your No, I just made that up. Just completely made that up. This is, but to be fair, everyone else just makes up words. So yeah, go on. What's your, what's your new word?
Leanne ElliottUm, I think we should make worksharking a thing, by the way. We'll talk about that later.
Al ElliottOkay. We'll workshop it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, we'll put a pin in it for now. We'll, we'll circle back. Um, my new word, locking in.
Al ElliottOkay. Well, I know exactly what this is.
Leanne ElliottGo on then.
Al ElliottWell, they say that on Twitter and on, on the TwickTok or whatever it's called. I'm, I'm locking in. I'm doing, I'm, I'm, I'm committed. This is what I'm doing. So. Um, you know, I'm gonna have a summer body, so I'm locking in. At work, things are going well, so I'm locking in. If I'm vibe coding, I'm locking in.
Leanne ElliottWhat's vibe coding?
Al ElliottVibe coding. You know, do you know what's weird? That when we, because we, we, we run in different online circles, I thought everyone, I thought everyone knew what vibe coding was. Vibe coding is when you basically use something like Lovable or Cursor or Windsurf, uh, which are applications, AI-driven applications, which you can basically build other applications in. So if you wanna build yourself a new Basecamp or build yourself a little mobile app that perhaps will give you beauty tips every single morning, You can go on, you can vibe code it. You'll give it, you'll give AI a prompt and it'll build the software for you.
Leanne ElliottAbout 2 years ago— I'm just gonna enjoy anything that came out of your mouth. Just understand anything that came out your mouth right now.
Al ElliottAbout 2 and a half weeks ago, we talked about a new word, locking in, I think. Do you remember?
Leanne ElliottRight, yes, vaguely. Locking in. Yep. No, you're absolutely right, Al. You're absolutely right. Um, yeah, it's being coined hustle culture 2.0. Um, I first saw it in a Refinery29 article, um, which is a publication I'm not familiar with, but it was posted my LinkedIn and, and I was interested. Um, so yeah, this is the definition apparently. Locking in is a trend which sees TikTokers pursue discipline, cut out distractions, and chase long-term goals with near military focus, uh, be it in their professional lives, academic careers, or simply their workout routines. Um, so yep, spot on, Al. Um, 10 out of 10 again, another prize coming your way.
Al ElliottYay!
Leanne ElliottUm, so the article, I should say, was written by Jade Biggs. So Jade noted that this is a pivot from the soft life trend that we've seen, which is a bit more about self-care, like slow mornings, and this pivot towards locking in hustle culture 2.0. She asked why. Fair question. We enjoy curiosity on this show.
Al ElliottWe enjoy the hard questions. Well, the big questions, according to Jessica Bigg.
Leanne ElliottYes, very nice. Yes.
Al ElliottThat's called a loopback in podcasting. Carry on.
Leanne ElliottUm, so this is— these are some, some, some of the whys, Al. Um, so Jade— it was Jade, wasn't it? I don't remember bigs now. Jade spoke to some Gen Zs because they're, they're the TikTok people, aren't they?
Al ElliottTikTok trap.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So, um, they spoke to Hallie Jammer, 22, from Minnesota. Um, Hallie's— What?
Al ElliottI'm just laughing because when someone says 22 after their name, I always think, well, there's 21 people better than you and earlier. Earlier adopters than you in the world. So anyway, carry on.
Leanne ElliottWhat?
Al ElliottBecause they, they, why don't they just have their name? They've got, they've gotta go, oh wow.
Leanne ElliottThat's their age.
Al ElliottOh, is it? Oh.
Leanne ElliottHallie's 22.
Al ElliottI thought that was their username.
Leanne ElliottNo.
Al ElliottSorry. Do you know what?
Leanne ElliottHallie Joma, who's 22 and from Minnesota.
Al ElliottI shall just drink from my big cup of shut up. There we go. I'm drinking now. Carry on.
Leanne ElliottSo Hallie said, rent is up, school tuition is wild, and social mobility feels like it's shrinking. So naturally there's this urgency, especially among young people, to do something about it. It's not just about working, it's about reclaiming power in a system that often leaves us feel powerless. Nicely said, Hallie. I think you have a future in politics or something. Um, then we have Chloe Gaynor. Chloe Gaynor is 26, Al, in years, and she's from Los Angeles. Uh, so Chloe said, with the unending uncertainty of the world economically, politically, and culturally, I believe people are turning inward and focusing on what they can control. We were talking about this just the other night.
Al ElliottJust the other night. Um, when you finished, I'll tell you.
Leanne ElliottWent on to say their mindset, their habits, and their goals. I knew I had to change the way I was living, starting with my mindset and daily habits. That's so weird.
Al ElliottReally weird. Really weird. Well, just for context, what I have, I have what I call the ellipse of gibberishery, and it's a very complicated scientific diagram. If you know what a Venn diagram is, it's basically 2 circles with intersecting ellipse in the middle, and you've probably seen jokes and stuff, but they're using maths, whatever. And so my Venn diagram, it, I created, uh, or might have stolen, not sure. said things you care about in one circle, things you can control in the other circle, and the bit in the middle, which is things you can care about and the things you can control, is your ellipse of give a shittery. That's all you need to worry about in your entire world. We can't control who's bombing whom. We can't control— we, yeah, we can't. That's got a bit dark real quick, didn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, man.
Al ElliottWe can't control—
Leanne Elliottour neighbour just came out the other day and was like, we're at war. I was like, what? What? Not wrong. Sorry, I'll carry on.
Al ElliottAnyway, that was the point, is that, that, yeah, what you can control. So if you just lock in on your, on your ellipse of give a shittery, um, your life will be so much better. Follow. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Leanne ElliottWell, this is apparently what the Gen Zers are saying about locking in. Um, they also talked about how it is maybe replacing the, um, the soft life. Um, and then we had— who do we have? Uh, Samia, 23 in age, from London. Um, Samia said the soft life was about rest and protecting peace, but I think a lot of us realise that soft living isn't sustainable long-term without some structure or achievement to back it. Absolutely. You want a quiet life, don't you? You want to focus on self-care, but we also need purpose and meaningful work in our lives. It's that balance that keeps us thriving. So yes, absolutely, you're not wrong. Um, I thought that was really interesting. You might be thinking, this is, this is cool, but I'm a business owner leader, why should I care? Excellent question, and I'm getting to a point, I promise. Why does it matter? Well, as we've just heard, people are potentially going to be picking up other, other side hustles to get this sense of control, this sense of, um, yeah, financial, um, freedom back on, on a possibility on the table. Um, with that, burnout is going to be potentially high. People could be overworked, overstretched. And with that as well, you might get some instances of high turnover. I know the job market is a bit tricky at the minute, but if someone sees a higher-paid job, that job-hopping behaviour that we saw just post-pandemic might start again. And I think finally as well, it's that control aspect that's gonna be really important for business owners and leaders to be mindful of. Anything you're doing in your leadership style that's gonna potentially take control away from somebody, people could react very quickly and very defensively. Because if all of this locking in is to try and gain some sense of control, and then as a leader, you're micromanaging, you're demanding they're back in the office, and all that type of thing, no autonomy, rigid hours, it could tip them over the edge. And again, we could see instances of burnout, or indeed people quitting. So I thought it's a really interesting trend that actually really speaks to the kind of political economic climate we're in at the minute, and does have some real organisational impacts potentially. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottI have been reading an article about Steve Jobs. Now you might have heard of him.
Leanne ElliottiPhone dude.
Al ElliottiPhone dude. Exactly. This, this article was like Steve Jobs and creativity and all the buzzwords that LinkedIn absolutely love. But it was really cool article because, uh, it basically was talking about the 5 conventional rules that crea— truly creative people break. And I thought, well, I think of myself as relatively creative, so—
Leanne ElliottRelatively.
Al ElliottThank you very much for the vote of confidence. I'll find some creative insults for you in a second.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottSo the first rule is stay in your lane. Don't be a generalist. Second rule is plan everything in advance. Remember, these are what we're going to break. And the third one is climb the corporate ladder slowly and politely. So I know that all sounds really boring as well. So, so according to Jobs, the most creative people do things and ignore specialization. His famous quote was, creativity is just connecting things. Basically, the more random stuff you do, the more you're going to be able to connect dots. And I know that Leanne and I have done this because we've had quite a Quite interesting and crazy life. And the number of times that we come into work and we go, actually, do you know what? Did we meet a guy who was doing something totally different, but we could potentially port that over here? So that was rule number 1. I really, I really like that. I also, when I was a kid, my dad, my dad used to call me a butterfly mind and it wasn't a good thing.
Leanne ElliottYou are a butterfly, my darling. That's a good thing though.
Al ElliottButterfly mind.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah. And it means that, you know how butterflies go from like flower to flower to flower. I used to go from idea to idea. So one week I was making kites in my, um, out of bin bags, and then the next week I was making a remote control truck. Uh, but all of those things I think really helped. So then we come into creativity now and I, I'm like, oh, I know a little bit about a little, about quite a lot of things. So it's kind of like, I don't know, I, I like that. Maybe that's not just justifying breaking that rule. The second rule to break was to plan everything in advance. Jobs said, you can't connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking backwards.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd finally, there's the whole don't politely climb the corporate ladder. He actually reportedly said, be a pirate, don't join the Navy, which sounds great till you realize that actually most jobs are the Navy and pirates tend to get arrested or thrown out. But I think this point still stands is that if you think, oh, well, I'll just work really hard for 30 years and when there's a promotion comes up, I'll go, yeah, I'd kind of like to have a go on that. Was that, was that okay? This is not, this might have worked for your dad or your grandfather, depending on how old you are.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottMight work in the '60s, '70s, doesn't work anymore. You need to be a little bit loud. You live, live life loudly, as we talked about last week. Um, I feel like that's one of those, like, live life loudly, laugh lots. We'll get that in tapestry.
Leanne ElliottWe'll get a t-shirt.
Al ElliottYeah, we'll get a t-shirt for next week. Um, and, but yeah, don't— in, in today's day and age, you need to be a bit louder. You need to, if you want something, go out and get it. If you don't be polite and sit back and be a wallflower, just go out there and think, what am I gonna do? And His point of being a pirate is if you take that to extreme, you join the Navy for discipline and ranks and order. A pirate does whatever the hell a pirate wants to do, which is dangerous, but also kind of cool 'cause you get a patch and you, you get to speak like, arrr, yarr. That's my impression of a pirate. Anyway, I wanna be a pirate. That's, that's what, what are your thoughts, Le?
Leanne ElliottYou are a pirate. You are a pirate. I like the whole, Not planning a thing. I think it's one thing to have a rough plan, a bit of a structure, or an outcome, like you said before, an outcome you're working towards. Exactly how you're going to get there is gonna, gonna change. Um, corporate ladder, yeah, that's tricky. Equally, you know, financial stability, oh, can, can bring some of that. But then equally redundancies, and as we're seeing now from, from the Gen Z about locking in and trying to do things they can control, makes sense. I'm interested in the generalist thing, right? Because I feel like we've spoken to a lot of experts over the last year or so that have maybe given the opposite advice on that, that said like you need a specialism, you need a niche. Now don't get me wrong, as a generalist I feel reassured by this, um, but I don't know, didn't, didn't, haven't we heard from people who say we need to be specialists? Or is it now that actually it's too dangerous to be a specialist because you specialize in one thing like C# programming and then AI comes in and can just do it for you?
Al ElliottYeah, I think reading between the lines, I think this was more like the advice was stay in your lane, don't be a generalist. And Jobs wasn't saying, well, just do a little bit of everything. He was saying, be a bit more creative, go and experiment with other things. So for example, you might be, you might be a specialist in neuroscience like Dr. Hilary Scarlett we had on about episode 80-something. You might be that, but also she was really interested in other things like change Management. She was interested in, in what happened. She, she did loads of work around MRIs, I think, which technically speaking wasn't, wasn't necessarily her specialism. So I think my advice would be, which, uh, to, to anyone now is be known for something, but also be curious about everything. Oh, that's a quote right there, is it? Be known for something, but be curious about everything.
Leanne ElliottNice.
Al ElliottMic drop moment right there.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Say no more.
Al ElliottLeigh, what else you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottI don't, I don't want to.
Al ElliottDid I win? Did I win Tuesday's episode?
Leanne ElliottYou won soundbite of the week, that's for sure. Um, no, I do have something else and it is really cool. I have a study about perfectionism and a study that asked, is perfectionism causing burnout?
Al ElliottOh, do you know what's so weird?
Leanne ElliottWhat?
Al ElliottAs you were talking about locking in, one of the things I was gonna talk about was perfectionism is the, is the worst thing you can do if you're locking in. I was about to say that.
Leanne ElliottReally?
Al ElliottHow strange is that?
Leanne ElliottMan, if you had God. This would all link up really nicely.
Al ElliottIt would be. I wonder if I can go back and edit that in.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Say it now and then we'll pop it in.
Al ElliottYeah. One of the things I'm thinking about really is perfectionism is like the enemy of locking in because if you lock in and you really want perfectionism, you're gonna end up burnt out, I think.
Leanne ElliottInteresting.
Al ElliottInteresting. Yeah. Yeah. Let's find out if that comes up later in the episode.
Leanne ElliottPerfect. So we'll pop that in. Anyway, does perfectionism cause burnout? So I did, I have posted about this on LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago. But I wanted to share a few more details. So it's a lovely study from Anoushka Singh and Dr. Neelam Pandey from Amity University. Um, this was published earlier this year in the International Journal of Indian Psychology and explores basically the lived experience of perfectionism among IT professionals. And it did find a consistent pattern, um, that essentially high-quality work is being done At the expense of mental health and wellbeing.
Al ElliottSay that again.
Leanne ElliottHigh-quality work is being done at the expense of mental health and wellbeing.
Al ElliottAnd so you're saying the high-quality work is that it's got to be— that they feel like it's got to be perfect work.
Leanne ElliottExactly.
Al ElliottGot it. Right.
Leanne ElliottExactly. And it's having an impact. So this is how they did the study. So the researchers conducted in-depth interviews with IT professionals across companies like Google, Amazon, and Meta. All participants had at least 3 years of experience, identified with perfectionist traits, and reported symptoms of burnout. They then used something called thematic analysis. That's when we just analyze words and find themes. Um, and the study identified consistent trends in how perfectionism shows up and also how it wears people down. So these are some of the main findings and what kind of stood out to me. So perfectionism was the norm, not the exception. So 100% of participants associated their job performance with perfectionism and often defined, um, this as delivering error-free work, even if that meant long hours or missing deadlines. Burnout was widespread, so 93% reported physical symptoms like migraines and fatigue, and the emotional toll of never good enough was shared across roles and across companies. There was also some tension found between productivity and performance. So whilst perfectionism led to high-quality outputs, as you'd imagine it would, and professional pride, about 80%, um, 87% said it also caused delays. So overthinking the small details led to missed deadlines and increased team pressures. Um, and then from an organizational perspective, mental health policies just weren't cutting through. So only 47% of participants found their company's mental health initiatives effective, and many said the policies existed on paper but not in practice, which is a very common thing, I think. Um, and of course, leaders play a pivotal role in this as well. Um, leadership can improve this situation by encouraging work-life balance. Man, if only they did. Um, so I thought it was a really interesting study, particularly in the climate we're in, particularly the pressure we're seeing on the tech industry. It gives an interesting kind of kind of side note to, to this as well, doesn't it? And, and also potentially the impact that these people may have psychologically or might experience psychologically if they are laid off from jobs where, you know, gives them a lot of professional pride, feeds into their identity, and they are very, you know, they're perfectionists as well. It can be very detrimental. Having worked with people who have been laid off from tech giants, I know this anecdotally to be true, and I think this study is Kind of pointing to that as well. Um, so in terms of what companies can do if you employ people of any, um, profession, but people who are perfectionists, I'm thinking probably technical things are right. You're going to see more of that. So things like accountants, things like IT people, where the error is going to break something or stop it from, from working. Um, things like setting realistic deadlines, redefining performance beyond error rates. That's the thing, isn't it? These organizations have error rates in there you have to hit. not helpful, and train leaders to balance quality with wellbeing, and also creating systems where progress is better than perfection. Thank you to Anoushka for sharing that on LinkedIn. I will leave a link to her and the study in the show notes.
Al ElliottOkay, so after the break, we've got our hot take, because that is the way we do things around here. I believe there's a really good-looking older gentleman on this week. Um, and then we've got the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery. Wrap up your questions to Leanne. Don't go anywhere. See you in a second. Billion Dollar Moves, hosted by Sarah Chen Spellings, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Leanne ElliottJoin venture capitalist and strategist Sarah Chen Spellings as she asks the hard questions and learns through the triumphs, failures, and hard lessons of the crème de la crème, so you too can make billion-dollar moves in venture, in business, and in life.
Al ElliottMaybe start with episode 124, where you're going to hear how industry giants from Canva to YouTube define leadership.
Leanne ElliottListen to Billion Dollar Moves wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back. It's time for a Hot Take, the time of the week where we ask a workplace expert to let us know what's grinding their gears and what they'd want to change about the world of work. This week, I don't need to look very far for my guest. He's sat right there.
Al ElliottHello to you.
Leanne ElliottYes, that's right. Our guest today is my co-host, Al Elliott. As you probably know, Al is co-founder and co-host of Truth, Lies and Work podcast. He's also the co-founder of Oblong, an organization that helps organizations build amazing workplace cultures. And he's here to give his hot take, his first official hot take, though he often has some spicy opinions. Al, tell me, You ready?
Al ElliottI am.
Leanne ElliottYou nervous?
Al ElliottI am. I've made some notes as well, so that's what we were saying before.
Leanne ElliottYou prepared?
Al ElliottI know. You didn't last week. You just turned up and winged it. It was amazing.
Leanne ElliottI did. I knew what my hot take was. Anyway, it's not about me. It's about you. Anyway, Al, welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. Thrilled to have you here. Tell me, what is your hot take?
Al ElliottWell, firstly, thank you, Leanne. It's a dream come true to be on the podcast. My hot take is that if you look bad on Zoom calls, You don't look busy. You just look like you don't give a shit.
Leanne ElliottI'm a mess. My background's a mess. I'm all a bit flustered because I'm so important and busy.
Al ElliottExactly.
Leanne ElliottThat's not reading as I'm so important and busy. It's just reading that you don't— I don't care enough.
Al ElliottExactly.
Leanne ElliottExactly. Say more.
Al ElliottBut the point is that you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be like— we've got a studio at home and it is really nice and we've got lovely lighting and great cameras and stuff. We still don't always get it right, but we try. We try really hard. However, All you need to do really, if you're gonna look good on camera and sound good on camera, is work on 3 things. It's your video, it's your audio, and it's your background. That's really all you need to work on. And none of those things require huge amounts of work to get right. Now, just to give you the context, the worst thing you can do on Zoom, and a lot of people do this on Zoom, is they'll either have the laptop on and it's looking up their nose, so it's really weird.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOr they'll have maybe on a different screen. So the camera's on one side, they're looking at the people in the Zoom call on the other, on the other screens. Like, well, it looks like you're not even looking at me, the camera. But all of these things, I'm gonna give you these sort of like 6 or 7 tips just to make yourself look and sound good on Zoom. They, some of them will cost you money, but most of them won't. First of all, let's start with the video. First of all, have your video at least so the camera is eye height. You wanna be ideally sort of like sort of chest to top of your head in the camera.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUsually, I usually try and have about 4 fingers, 3 or 4 fingers away from the top of the frame. And that gives you a nice framing. Secondly, don't have the camera so close to you. The number of people we interview and I have to go, can you do us a quick favor? Can you just either you sit back or you move your camera back? Because it's, they're just basically like, hello, I'm here. It's like, stop it, go away, go away. So that's really sort of your video. And in terms of your, in terms of your actual video equipment, a webcam is good.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLike most people have got, I think it's a LogiCam C920, which is those ones which you sit on top of your screen. Most people got those. They're okay. But if you do have, if you are in the Apple ecosystem, then there's something called Continuity Camera, which means that you can actually use, you can plug in your iPhone into your laptop. If you assume you've got iPhone and MacBook, and you can actually have your webcam can be your iPhone and your iPhone camera is about as good.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottas almost any digital camera you can buy for less than £1,000. I know.
Leanne ElliottThese are on an iPad.
Al ElliottYeah, these are on an iPad. All our secrets are coming out now. So that's really sort of like the main thing is just make yourself look as good as you possibly can. In terms of lighting, now this is a big one. We had a guest on, I'm not gonna name who it is. We had a guest on and they were sitting there and they had 2 windows behind them with the blinds up and they just looked really, Like washed out. They look like they're on Crimewatch. You know those things on Crimewatch where they've got— they're all shadowed out? That's because your camera, no matter what you use, your camera is looking for light. That's the way cameras work. So if it sees a huge light source behind you, it's going to grab all that light and forget about anything in front of you. So tip number 1, don't sit with a light source behind you like a window. Tip number 2, if you do have to do that, do it that way, just drop some blinds. You will see it'll make a massive difference. Secondly, if you've got a light Now you've got a ring light. What a lot of people do is put the ring light straight on their face. They shouldn't be doing that. They should be putting it against a wall or something, diffusing off the ceiling, something like that. So the light bounces off the ceiling, comes back down diffused. It'll make you look so, so much better. You can do the same with a floor lamp or any other kind of lamp. You don't need a ring light. Just get a really strong bulb, bounce it off the ceiling, and you'll look really good. And that's really it for cameras. Leanne, before I rant on, any thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI mean, I have follow-up questions. I mean, The one, one thing that gets me right is that we're in this world of, of podcasting, but also our entire world works online. We tend to work remotely the majority of the year. Our clients are remote, we're remote. We're good at being remote. Some people aren't as good at being remote, and, and it, it's surprising because we had the pandemic where everyone was remote. So I guess my question is like, what, what's— if I can only get one of them right, is there one that's more important? Like, is it getting my video right is better, getting my audio right is better, getting my background is better? Because, because you do checks with every single guest that comes on the show now, and you have for like the past 4 or 5 months or so, to coach them through these, these things. So which is the most important? Is there a running order?
Al ElliottBelieve it or not, it's audio.
Leanne ElliottRight?
Al ElliottMost people feel like— you'll notice this yourself— if you start watching a YouTube video and the audio's pretty good but the video's not great, you'll watch it. If you watch a video where the video's really good, but the audio's really bad, you'll click off. So audio is the most important thing. Now, well, let's talk about audio then, because you can go like full-on knobhead like we have and get these mics and they are fabulous and they're not that expensive, about 200 quid each or something. Maybe what's that, about $220? But they have to be very close to you. So yes, you can do that, but that's like the best of the best. The next one down is getting a shotgun mic, and that's one which, which can sit behind your camera, and it just basically directs itself right at your face, and it picks up your sound much better. Again, you're still talking £100, £150 to get a fairly decent one. What I would suggest is just using AirPods or, um, or like Android equivalents, you know, the Bluetooth pods, because most of them, unless you're buying like the £9 ones on Wish, or what's the other one they have in the UK, unless you have those, They're gonna have a pretty decent mic in them. So just, just sync that up to your, to your computer. If you have some of the, um, uh, if you have like some wired ones with a, with a microphone in it, that's great too. Now, a couple of other tips with the audio. First of all, never ever, unless it's just like a really, like we have a quick call with your team or something, but even then I would counsel you should make an effort. Never ever just have the audio coming out of your laptop and your microphone in your laptop, because what happens is the audio comes out the microphone, goes back, sorry, comes out the speaker. Goes back into the microphone. It makes you sound all echoey. And the second tip is, no matter where you are, try not to sit facing a hard surface like a wall. Because if you've got a wall, what'll happen is you'll talk, it'll go into the mic, whatever mic you're using, it'll bounce off the wall, and a quarter of a second later will go back into the mic. And that's what makes you sound all echoey is when you've got your, you, it's, it's the echo is your voice going into the mic, bouncing off something else and going back into the mic.
Leanne ElliottAnd is that also why sometimes when I speak to people, I can hear myself?
Al ElliottThat's usually because they've done the first thing. They've got, they've not got any, um, they've not got any headphones in or anything.
Leanne ElliottSo I'm coming out of their speakers, then it's coming back through their mic into me. I can't deal. I can't continue to talk if I can hear myself. I can't concentrate. Okay, so sound is most important. Backgrounds, because I remember reading some research that was about, about this, impressions that we make on Zoom, and it was saying that actually we're pretty good at making, um, positive and negative first impressions, and as kind of as good as judging them and making decisions about them over Zoom as we are in face-to-face. But there was a couple of caveats, and one of them was about how backgrounds can actually provide more cues potentially about who a person is. So, for example, I've got a picture of my dog in the background, then you're going to know that I love dogs. Um, or for example, you might see that I'm in somewhere that is maybe very plain. It might give you a sense of, of potentially where I live.
Al ElliottYeah, you're absolutely right, Leanne. I think When it comes to background, there's a couple of rules. First of all, don't have a white background. There's a lot of people who think, oh well, I'll look more professional if I've just got a white background. No, you look like you're in prison. So don't do that. Have something in the background. And it doesn't matter if it's, if it's like shows you a little bit of your life. Like I was speaking to some guy the other day and he had a cot in the background. Now he just got a newborn baby. So I'm like, well, that's fine because it's something to talk about. So have something in the background, even just a plant or something, but ideally some shelves or Something was just— and you can use that to tell people a little bit more about you. The second thing is don't sit right next to your background. If it's possible and you've got the space, pull your desk forward about 2 or 3 feet. What's that about? About a metre? Pull it away from the background because no matter what camera you're using, it's gonna be— it's called depth of field. It's gonna make it look a little bit better. And also, if you're right up against something, it just looks a bit weird. You look crowded. So try and do that. If you do use your iPhone for that, Then it's got a brilliant depth of field, which means the further away from the background it is, the more blurry it is. And it looks all cool and like cinematic.
Leanne ElliottAnd how, where do you stand on like the fake backgrounds?
Al ElliottDon't.
Leanne ElliottWhy?
Al ElliottBecause, because when you move like this, then it, it shows you. If it's a fake background, it's like wearing a wig on, on, on a Zoom call. It's like, why have you got a fake background? What's going on in your background? And I start thinking what more about why is it fake? Then, and when, and the people do the blur thing and that's just, I mean, it's got better, but still, then there's some people who do it and, and it's like a library or something. And I'm like, are you, are you on the same call as this other person I spoke to 2 weeks ago who had exactly the same background? No. I would suggest don't do it. Be authentic. The, what some people talk about, a green screen, and you can get these green screens that sit behind you. There's some which even attach to the back of your chair, like in a big circle around you. Yeah, you can do that. But if you start using Zoom with an actual green screen, like proper, like screen, physical screen, then it uses a lot of your computing power. And so that's why you've got laptops which will overheat or you'll hear the fan spinning, which will affect your audio. So my advice, don't. Just be authentic. Just spend a few minutes having a look or sorting your background out. And then before you jump on a call, just make sure there's like no dirty knickers hanging from the window or something, or make sure you haven't got like your breakfast sitting behind you. So yeah, that's, that's my advice. Oh, and finally, clean your lens. Clean your lens for all that is holy and good. Just get a little cloth and clean your camera lens because, oh my God, it just looks so much better.
Leanne ElliottNo, I like it. I like it. And I think it's really good advice for anyone in a leadership role that does a lot of video calls, video meetings. These are things that are going to affect how you come across, your level of influence, how you're understood, how engaged your people are going to be. You're going to want to make sure that these things are all, all done. Um, and particularly for anyone out there who is a thought leader or wants to really, you know, change the world with their messages around organizational life and leadership and wellbeing, again, it's going to be much more credible, um, if, if you've kind of got, got these things sorted. Um, and there's, I mean, as a typical budget then, just to get like, I'm not, I've not got loads of money to invest in this, but I'm willing to invest a bit. How much am I gonna need to get a decent camera, a decent microphone, and some kind of something with a background?
Al ElliottOkay. Probably less than $200. Because if you've got an Android, then there's lots of things on Android. I forget, I think they're called Elgato. Elgato's got a, and I forget, virtual cam or something, but just Google, just Google a way to connect your Android to your laptop. You can just use your Android phone, so you don't need a proper phone. You've got an iPhone, as I said before, they connect natively to Mac. Um, your mic, your mic will be the best thing you can do and you can actually go and get, I've only ever seen it written down. I think they're called lavalier mics. Please tell me in the comments what it, how you actually pronounce that word. But you know the ones that, you know, that newsreaders have.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottPin on here. You can pin it on there, plug it into your mic, um, hole, mic socket in your computer. That's gonna be 100 times better and you can get those for 30, 40 quid. Rode does a really, really, really good one, about £60. R-O-D-E. That's all the equipment we use here. Um, and that's it. Background should just be stuff you've got at home. Just go and move a plant.
Leanne ElliottThat's it. Lovely, lovely. It's very affordable, actually. And if people want to learn more about how to get all this stuff right, Al, maybe engage you, because I know you've actually done some coaching around, around this. Where do they go to book in that opportunity?
Al ElliottWell, I'd love to say I've got a fancy website, but I don't. Just go to the, just go to the show notes. You'll see al@oblonghq.com or al@truthliesandwork.com. Goes to the same place. Drop me a quick email. I think the main thing we just need to remember is we're not about being YouTubers. It's about— it's not about perfection, it's about presence. There we go. Mic drop moment of this, of, of, uh, and that's on brand from what you were talking about before.
Leanne ElliottYeah, lovely, lovely. Al, thank you very much. I'll leave a link to all of that in the show notes.
Al ElliottFabulous. Okay, Leanne, it's now my favourite time of the week. It's the World FM's Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. You know all this, just tune out for 10 seconds. Leanne is a Chartered Occupational Psychologist. She's an expert in workplace culture. She's here to answer your questions around work. We tend to get questions from managers and from people who want to be managers or people who've just got problems at work. If you've got one of those problems, just send us a quick email, details in the show notes, and we'll read it out. We'll keep it anonymous, of course, unless you tell us otherwise. Leanne, are you ready for the first question?
Leanne ElliottI'm so ready.
Al ElliottSo where is a great place to work remotely and feel inspired again? Hi, Leanne. And Al, thank you for including me. This might be a bit outside your usual questions, but I know you've both worked remotely while travelling. We have. So I'd love your take. Oh, I see. Right. Okay. I should have read this beforehand. I thought it was like, where in the house is, where in the world?
Leanne ElliottThe cat's in the hat. That one.
Al ElliottI did read the other 2, just didn't read this one. I've been in the same remote job for nearly 5 years. Lately, I found the need of a change of scenery, something with nature, new people, and a bit of adventure. I'm thinking somewhere in Europe, Asia, or maybe even Australia. Okay. So you've got a small area to look at. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottOpen to locations.
Al ElliottI'm not looking to completely quit or do the digital nomad thing full-time. We did. Um, just hoping to spend a few weeks or months somewhere that's comfortable, energising, and remote work friendly. Any tips or sharing your thoughts or experience would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. This is right up our street, Le, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Oh, there's so many variables that we don't know. Um, when are you gonna go? What time of year? Do you prefer warm weather, cool weather, mountains? beach, seaside, that type of thing. You said nature. Nature can mean a lot of things. Broadly speaking, the most important thing is going to be things like your internet, isn't it? And making sure you can still do, do what you're doing. And in our experience, it's actually really surprising where you'll find some of the best internet. Obviously, you're going to have your kind of digital nomad hotspots. So, I'm talking things like Prague. Um, where else? Bali.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI mean, I guess anywhere around Um, Croatia has now got a digital nomad visa. There's lots going on there.
Al ElliottPortugal.
Leanne ElliottPortugal, of course. And that can be quite nice because you'll find a lot of other people that are doing what you're doing. There is a risk of getting a bit lonely sometimes if you go to more obscure places. So, for your first time, I'd recommend going to more of a digital nomad hotspot, or at least where there are some. So, they're probably the main ones in Europe, aren't they? Czechia, Portugal, Croatia. Poland potentially, um, are probably the main ones that you want to look at. Um, and, and I don't remember any internet struggles in those places. Croatia is a bit, bit hit and miss from time to time, but—
Al ElliottThat was on the island. So yeah, if you stick to somewhere around Split, is a, is a cool city. Yes, I tried Split.
Leanne ElliottYeah, Split is really great. Beautiful coastline as well. Lots and lots of nature. Stunning. If you're going for the nature, yeah, Croatia is probably a really great Shout over Prague, Czech Republic, very built up. Portugal, beautiful nature, but very busy. So yeah, Croatia could be a good shout, but it is quite expensive.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, if we're looking east, and this is where you'll be surprised, I have had some of my strongest 4G, um, internet access network thingy going on whilst I've been on a ferry in the middle of the sea somewhere in and around Thailand. I don't understand how it works, but it did. Um, Thailand has got loads of digital nomads. I think it's a really good introduction to Asia if you've never been before. The food is incredible, lots of different islands you can go to with different vibes. So when you're feeling a bit quiet and a bit like you need some, you know, something more going on, you can go to the busier islands like Koh Samui. Um, or then you've got other ones that are a bit quieter, like Koh Lanta. Oh, that's the bigger digital nomad one, isn't it?
Al ElliottKoh Lanta is the one I want to go to.
Leanne ElliottUm, so yeah, I think Thailand is a really good one. Don't go to Bali.
Al ElliottNope, just don't.
Leanne ElliottDon't go to Bali.
Al ElliottDon't.
Leanne ElliottIt's not, it's not good. And you know what gets me, Alec, if you're listening to this, you know, I have friends that ask me about Bali and I always say, didn't like it, didn't vibe with it, wouldn't go again. They always still go and then come back and go, you were so right about Bali. I'm like, I know, I know. Um, I guess maybe just have to, have to see it. Don't go to Bali. Um, Australia, yeah, we spent some time in Australia and New Zealand. Beautiful. I'd probably vibe a bit more with Melbourne than I did with Sydney. Um, again, that city. Yeah, New Zealand could be a better shout. Again, expensive, but you're gonna have some beautiful, beautiful countryside there. So they're my general thoughts. Um, I maybe have some quick tips on equipment as well, but Al, first of all, what are your thoughts on location?
Al ElliottYeah, I agree. I think, um, If you really like nature, then Eastern Europe is a good place. Oops, sorry, take my microphone. You got that excited. If you really like Eastern Europe, is a good, is a good call. Uh, so you potentially, I mean, if you're, if you're intrepid, look at Georgia. That is, we've never been, would love to go.
Leanne ElliottSpicy now, isn't it?
Al ElliottWell, yeah, I don't know how quite, oh yeah, I mean, I've seen that it's okay, but yeah, maybe don't take my advice on that. Do your own research. Uh, but certainly look at, you know, Bulgaria is really cool. Look at, um, Greece. Yeah, Greece, North Macedonia, Macedonia. Um, is, is a cool place. So I think Eastern Europe is really cool and also is relatively inexpensive. The internet is usually pretty cheap. If you just want beach life for a couple of months, Thailand, go to Koh Lanta, um, or Trieste, not Trieste, that's in Europe. What's the one down, uh, Trat?
Leanne ElliottTrat. Yeah. Trat's on the mainland, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, yeah. Koh Lanta, Koh Chang, we really enjoyed.
Al ElliottKoh Chang is stunning. And you're gonna go in there, you're gonna go and buy a— so before you go, go and buy a 4G router, make sure it takes a SIM card, usually about $60. Go and get a 4G router. And then when you get there locally, there's, there's an application called Saily.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWhich I dunno whether it works over there. We use it in Europe. I dunno if it works over there, but we just go to any kiosk and just go and buy data. And the data's so cheap.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIt's like fast, fast. You get, at the time we were getting 20, 30 gigabyte, uh, megabyte down. Um, and that was like 7 years ago. So it's gonna be so much faster now.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd you're just gonna get the most beautiful experience, in my opinion, if that's your bag, if that tickles your pickle, because you can be sitting on the beach. Don't sit at the beach with your laptop, you get sand in your laptop. But you could be sitting there, you could go and have some lovely food, you'll be in shorts and t-shirt. It's just go at the right time of year.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Oh, I do know what I think. Yeah, I think Thailand's a really good shout, particularly if you're looking for travel, something a bit different to reset. Um, there is a digital nomad community there, there's great internet there, internal flights are really cheap, so you can bob around different islands. It's not— it's really also cheap to hire a driver, We did that a couple of times.
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottIt worked out about the same as a flight for both of us, just getting a taxi to, to go down to, from Bangkok to, um, one of the islands. It's fabulous. And the accommodation is so affordable, so you can stay in places that are a bit more hostel-y, backpacky, then you can go somewhere really nice. Great hack if you do go somewhere nice that includes breakfast, because they have a lot of savoury stuff for breakfast, and breakfast usually goes on till 11. We get up early, go for breakfast like 7. This is when we had a bit less money. Um, also, it's just, it's just a savvy thing to do. So we'd have breakfast at 7 and then we'd have lunch at like quarter to 11. Um, beautiful. Um, yeah, agreed. Go to Thailand.
Al ElliottOkay, well answered. And we love questions like that. If, uh, I'd love to say if you like that, go and check out our other podcast, A Sideways Life, but don't because we haven't posted for about 18 months.
Leanne ElliottThere's a lot of episodes there.
Al ElliottThere's a lot. There's 200-odd episodes. Yeah, so we get a little drunker on that one. Actually, we don't get drunk at all on this one, just to be clear. Okay. Question number 2. Do I have to fake it to get promoted? I'm 28. I'm project coordination for 4 years, but last week my manager told me I'm not leadership material because I don't speak up enough in meetings or make myself visible. Apparently I need to build influence. The thing is, I listen more than I talk. I avoid drama. I get on with the work and fix things before they become problems. I've tried being louder for a month and it just feels fake and it feels exhausting and I don't think it's working. So here's my question. Do I really need to become someone I'm not to get ahead? I put the wrong intonation on that. Do I need to become someone I'm not to get ahead?
Leanne ElliottNo, but you might need to manage the expectations of others and how they see you at work. This is one of the most frustrating myths for me in, in the workplace is that extroverts equal better leaders. The loudest person in the room is often not the smartest. So, I think that is just a myth that isn't— you are actually also really smart though.
Al ElliottThat's true.
Leanne ElliottEvery rule needs an exception, doesn't it?
Al ElliottThat's true.
Leanne ElliottEvery rule needs an exception. So, I think, I think, yeah, loudness gets you noticed, um, but being talkative isn't great leadership. Um, that's not really how How it works. And introverts can absolutely lead. We talked to John Amici about this when he was on the show, and he was very, very clear that often introverted leaders can be even more effective because they're more introspective, they're more reflective, they're more empathetic. I think he said something like, you know, no one's ever turned to a leader and gone, you're just too empathetic. It doesn't work like that. So yeah, we just— introverts just lead differently. And that's okay. But of course, because we're in a system that exists already and favors extroverts, we might need to just tweak some of our behaviors occasionally so we get on and get up. So, yes. So, I think you don't have to fake it. And you're right, that will be exhausting because there's all this effort going in, which is hard for an introvert anyway. But anything that is the dissonance between our behavior and how we're actually thinking and feeling inside is going to cause tension.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd ultimately stress. So, I think it's really kind of looking at behaviours that guide your decisions, guide your approach to leadership, and maybe being a bit more vocal about those with your leader. So, say for example, you might go into them and just check in with him. And I used to do this with my manager actually, and it took him a little while to get to know me. Once he did, he'd get to the point where he'd tell me something and go, I'm going to leave that with you, I'll call you in about an hour. I'm like, cool, great. What I'd say is, if you've had a really positive conversation with a member of staff that was maybe a bit difficult. Maybe they had a bit of beef. Maybe they weren't happy with how something was being handled in the organization. Maybe you sat down with them, you had that conversation with empathy, with honesty. You explained the reasoning behind the decision. You gave them the why. They then understood, like, okay, I get it, you've got my buy-in, let's move forward. You might then want to phone your manager and go, just to put it on your radar, nothing to worry about at all, but I've just had a conversation with a member of staff— you don't need to say who— Member of staff who thought this, felt that, had a conversation with them. I brought them around, they're now on board, but I just thought, just wanted to share that, um, with you. It then kind of shows, okay, so the behaviors that, that this person is enacting as a leader that I thought weren't effective actually are, or they're enacting behaviors I didn't even realize they were enacting and are effective. So it's almost like you need to be a bit more vocal in feeding back your approach and how that's working.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think this is maybe what, what you'll feel comfortable in terms of speaking up. It isn't being the loudest person in the meetings, but it's maybe speaking up in terms of what's going on in the organization and how you've handled it effectively. So that can be one technique that, that you can do. There's also gonna be lots of organizations out there who are going to appreciate a more introverted leader, who are gonna, um, yeah, look for leaders that have the right behaviors Rather than the right talking voice. We heard that from NHS Christie a few weeks ago. And actually, in terms of that, one thing that may help is understanding the behaviours that you are acting and you are doing effectively, and doing something like a psychometric, like the Real World Leader, could help you do that. So then you can understand your own behaviours better, so you can point them out more effectively to the manager. At this point, there's going to be people going, this sounds like you're just telling him to do his manager's job for him. Yeah, essentially, because your manager doesn't know what she's talking about or he's talking about, because they're making incorrect assumptions about what it is to be an effective leader. So, at this point, you're going to have to try and educate them because it doesn't sound like they can educate themselves.
Al ElliottYeah, and I'd probably maybe suggest, see if there's anyone else on your team who you can sort of team up with. So, maybe the idea being that in meetings, then if you've got like a partner in crime that you've met and deal with, then you could, they can say, oh, did you know that Arthur did this thing? And Arthur and you being Arthur can go, oh yeah, you know, I did do this thing. I'll tell you a bit more about it if you want. Just gives you that in rather than going, yeah, I did this thing, which is quite awkward if you are slightly more introverted or you don't like speaking up quite so much. I think what Leanne says is just be yourself, be authentic. Um, and if, if it might be a bit tough, this, but if, if you're not being, if you're not being appreciated for being yourself in this organization and you're still putting, turning in great work and contributing.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLong-term, it might not be the organisation for you, but obviously don't make any rash decisions. But yeah, the last thing you want to do is fake it, because to be honest, faking it, as Leanne said, takes so much energy from you, but also, also is inauthentic, and people can spot it a mile off.
Leanne ElliottI mean, the other thing that you could do is ask some more questions around what your manager said about leadership material. What does leadership material look like in this organisation? What are the behaviours, the values, the outcomes that they drive. It might be that you're doing that, but just in a different way. So again, you're going to have to try and find a way to vocalise that in a way that's effective and comfortable for you, but it might be worth digging into exactly what the leadership material means, so you can have a better understanding of how you can reach that, but in your own unique way.
Al ElliottLove it. In your own skin. I love it. Okay. Question number 3, Leanne. What does purpose-driven leadership really look like in practice? This is a great question. I want to know the answer to this question. I should know the answer to this question. I've been thinking a lot about what it means to lead with purpose. I was recently part of a discussion on authentic leadership, and it really— see, you need to be authentic— authentic leadership, and it really got me questioning what that actually looks like on a day-to-day, especially in senior roles. How do you stay aligned with your values when you've got deadlines, politics, and commercial pressure pulling you in all directions? I'd love to hear your take. What does leading with real intention look like, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYou You, you've answered your own question. It's a— it starts with values. It starts with understanding exactly who you are. And that sounds really cheesy, but it really is a case of understanding what kind of professional am I? What kind of person am I? What kind of human do I want to be? How do I want to be better? And having that really deep period of reflection, using coaching models to help you with that, whether it be the VITALS model, whether it be Things like there's a you know what is quite a good exercise to do if if that all seems a bit abstract or you're not exactly sure what your values are is a career timeline exercise. So basically, write draw a horizontal line on the left hand of the line. Start with your very first job, even if you were 14, and then map out every job that you've ever had through to current day. Then as you go through, reflect on what you really liked about that job, what you didn't like about that job. If there was somebody there that inspired you, if there's someone there that really irritated. Motivated you, to help you get an idea of the work that was meaningful for you, the work that you enjoyed, that gave you energy, that, um, you found fulfilling. And, and why— understanding why is going to give you those clues as to what your values are, who you want to be, whether you want to be an empathetic leader, whether you want to be wildly creative, whether you want to build something really exciting. That's going to give you an idea. Once you have this in mind and written down, It's a case of looking at your organisation is going to be critical because if your values are out of sync with the organisation that you're currently working in or considering working in, that's not going to work out. That leads to what we call moral burnout, and it's really hard. It's really tough, and you just can't last long in an organisation that's fundamentally out of sync with your values. You might get 18 months out of it, maybe 2 years, depending on how involved you are. Anything longer than that is, is where you're going to find yourself. What did you say? In these places where you're being pulled in all directions. If your organization is aligned with your values, that probably won't happen very frequently, um, at all. My kind of general advice. And I think finally, it's kind of thinking about where are your weaknesses? Where are you? Where do you stumble when you're stressed? So for example, when I'm stressed and under pressure, I get very direct.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBecause I just need somebody to understand what needs to be done. And that somebody's usually Al. I'm sorry, darling. But I get very direct because I just, I just need to communicate this as clearly as possible to make sure it happens. Having that self-awareness is, if I'm working with somebody who isn't my husband, which is another conversation, is it? When you work with your partner, actually, the behaviours that you would never do with another professional.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUm, but if I'm in another environment, I can feel that, that stress starting to build up. I know that's going to happen. I don't want to be an asshole. I don't want to make people feel uncomfortable or stressed or like they've done something wrong. So, I know to calm myself down and have that conversation calmly in terms of, right, can I just ask some questions to clarify what's going on? And then I think once we've done that, we'll be able to agree a way to move forward. And it's having that self-awareness to adjust your behavior in those moments, because I don't want to be an asshole. I want to be a good manager. And if that's one thing that you want to be as a professional, then that's something that, that you're going to kind of check yourself on. And I think another one, I think I heard this from, um, Louise Kershaw, who was on the show. Brilliant, brilliant career coach. And she was kind of saying things like, um, in terms of understanding your values, is looking through your day and going, what did I enjoy today? What gave me energy? What did I not enjoy? What took energy away from me?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd if the negatives are outweighing the positives on most days, then that's another indicator that you're out of sync with the organization you're working in or the role that you're in. So, in terms of what is purpose-led leadership, it's intentional, it's mindful, it's reflective, it's proactive, and it's done every day in a way that you self-audit yourself. And over time, when you find yourself in that right organization, your colleagues will help you audit that.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottbehaviour as well and check in. That is essentially what authentic leadership is. It's knowing who you are, how you want to operate in the world, and finding an organisation that will celebrate who you are and how you operate.
Al ElliottLast week we had Geoff LeBlanc on talking about kindness, and he said the best manager is a flawed person. So, the whole, this whole thing seems to be around perfection right now, but Just don't try and be perfect. Don't try and get it right straight away. The best managers are usually flawed.
Leanne ElliottSo, thank you for the listeners who sent in questions this week. If you have a question along any of these lines, anything specific that's happening in your organisation, you can send us an email, hello@truthliesandwork.com.
Al ElliottYes, we'll see you next week. So, Thursday we've got another interview, and next Tuesday another This Week in Work. And then in about 3 weeks' time, we're starting our new format for Tuesdays.
Leanne ElliottSummer, summer, summertime.
Al ElliottSo we will see you then. Have a great week.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye. Subscribe, like, share, review. Thank you.
Al ElliottBye.
Leanne ElliottBye.
Al ElliottThis week in work, is hustle culture making a comeback?
Leanne ElliottIt's my bit, bitch.
Al ElliottOh, sorry. Plus, are we rewarding the wrong behaviours at work? Steve Jobs once said, join the Navy. No, he didn't. This is Truth, Lies and Work, where workplace culture meets science.
Leanne ElliottThe award-winning podcast.
Al ElliottI don't do this bit.
Leanne ElliottDo you want me to just do it?