Episode 227 · 28 August 2025 · 42:37
Why Doing One New Thing Every Week Could Change Your Life, with behavioural scientist Patrick Fagan
Why Doing One New Thing Every Week Could Change Your Life, with behavioural scientist Patrick Fagan
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Introducing Patrick Fagan and his year of 52 new things
Why Patrick started his 52-week experiment
Committing to 52 new things and planning challenges
interview#commitment#planning#challenge
Highlights: from cults to cuddle workshops
interview#highlights#cults#cuddle-workshops
Joining two cults and the liberation of breaking social rules
interview#cults#social-rules#liberation
Psychics, acupuncture, and forced reflection
interview#psychics#acupuncture#reflection
The science of experiences vs material things
Incrementalism — how to start your own experiment
interview#incrementalism#starting#experiment
Extending hobbies and pushing beyond comfort
interview#hobbies#comfort-zone#growth
How teams and leaders can apply these principles
interview#teams#leadership#back-to-office
Job swaps and the problem with forced socials
interview#job-swaps#socials#forced-events
The back-to-office debate through a novelty lens
interview#back-to-office#novelty#debate
The MARVELS framework for experience design
interview#experience-design#framework#marvels
Was Patrick actually happier after a year of novelty?
interview#happiness#novelty#experiment
The 'melting hug' and other takeaways
interview#takeaways#melting-hug#insights
Letting go of control (with a little help from ChatGPT)
interview#control#chatgpt#letting-go
Top 3 takeaways for leaders
interview#leadership#takeaways#presence
Show notes
Why Doing One New Thing Every Week Could Change Your Life — with Patrick Fagan
Guest: Patrick Fagan — behavioural scientist, bestselling author, and consultant on influence and psychology.
What if the secret to a happier, more meaningful life — and a more engaged team — isn't more comfort, but the right kind of productive struggle?
Patrick Fagan spent a year doing something completely new every single week. From joining cults to attending cuddle workshops, from My Little Pony conventions to colonic irrigation, he pushed himself into the uncomfortable and unusual to see how novelty shapes happiness, memory, and meaning.
Al and Leanne sit down with Patrick to unpack the science behind his 52-week experiment — and what leaders can learn about creating workplaces that people actually remember.
Top 3 Takeaways
Stop avoiding productive struggle. Patrick's research shows that experiences requiring effort and purpose create deeper meaning than comfort alone. The same applies at work — don't smooth away every challenge.
Think in terms of the MARVELS framework. Traditionally used for brands, it applies brilliantly to employee experiences — and can guide you in designing moments people actually remember.
Embrace intentional friction. While some companies focus on making everything frictionless, the most meaningful experiences — and workplaces — build in the right kind of challenge on purpose.
More From Patrick Fagan
- Website (consulting, behavioural science): patrickfagan.co.uk
- "Just Do Stuff" blog (Patrick's 52 experiences): justdostuff.co.uk
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottWe want you to meet Patrick Fagan. He's a behavioural scientist, a bestselling author, and the guy who spent a year deliberately making himself really uncomfortable.
Patrick FaganI take the science of psychology and think about how to practically use it and apply it. With this experiment, I was seeing if I could apply it to happiness and making life kind of more meaningful and actually trying to slow down time a little bit.
Leanne ElliottPatrick made a commitment to do 52 new things in one year, one a week, which involved him joining a cult, cuddling strangers, and visiting a psych All in the name of science. And here is what he discovered: the experiences that made him the most uncomfortable were also the most transformative.
Patrick FaganYou haven't lived until you felt a strange man's grizzled face between your hands as you stare into his eyes for a minute, which, as an introvert, I absolutely hated that. But the struggle, the awkwardness, the challenge, it was actually what made it meaningful.
Al ElliottThis insight completely flips our understanding of workplace happiness because we spend billions trying to make work comfortable and frictionless. But Patrick's research suggests we might be making people more miserable in the process.
Leanne ElliottToday we're asking, what if the secret to engaged teams isn't more comfort, but the right kind of productive struggle? Patrick's got a framework called Marvels that could revolutionise how you think about employee experience.
Al ElliottThis could challenge everything you think you know about workplace wellbeing.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture. Brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottOur guest today, Patrick Fagan, is an applied behavioural scientist who's written bestselling books on manipulation, fake news, and marketing psychology. But his most interesting experiment was personal, spending an entire year doing 52 completely different things.
Leanne ElliottWhat makes Patrick's story really interesting isn't the wild experiences, it's the science behind why uncomfortable, challenging moments create deeper meaning than pure pleasure. And that has profound implications for how we design work experiences.
Al ElliottHis research reveals that while we're obsessed with making work comfortable and frictionless, we might actually be draining the meaning right out of it. So after this break, we're gonna hear about Patrick's most transformative experiences and discover why struggle might be the secret ingredient your team is missing. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Patrick FaganI'm an applied behavioural scientist. Meaning I take the science of psychology and think about how to practically use it and apply it. So normally I do this for money reasons, boo hiss. But with this experiment, I was seeing if I could apply it to happiness and making life kind of more meaningful and actually trying to slow down time a little bit, which I know sounds odd, but we don't really psychologically think about time in terms of clocks and calendars. When we look back on our lives, we think about in terms of— holidays and weddings and fun nights out and things like that. But yeah, normally in my day job, I'm helping with marketing, advertising. I do a bit of academia, some lecturing. I've written and co-written some peer-reviewed papers on things like price psychology and Facebook psychology and a couple of books. One of them is a Sunday Times bestseller about how not to be manipulated. by fake news, real news, social media, everything else. And the other book is about how to manipulate people through marketing and advertising, so how to make messages more attention-grabbing and memorable and effective.
Leanne ElliottSo, this experiment feels like a bit of a pivot then from what your normal work is. So, tell us a bit more about it, where the idea come from and your motivation for wanting to try it.
Patrick FaganYeah, there were a couple of things really which kind of came together at the same time. So we were just coming out of lockdowns and all of the kind of digital transformation that happened off the back of that. So a lot more remote working, screen time went up a lot. And then I also, or I should say my wife also had a baby. So that was a big kind of life shaking up event. I actually, for my book on how to not get manipulated, spoke to somebody who escaped or survived a cult. And a multi-level, she went from a cult to a pyramid scheme. But she escaped those things. And she was saying that she joined the pyramid scheme after she just had a baby, because when you have these big life events, it tends to kind of disrupt your normal way of thinking and new things happen. So that was going on in my personal life. And then I was on holiday, a kind of extended honeymoon slash digital nomad type thing. And we were in Croatia and we'd been away for a month and we phoned someone back home and they said, oh, have you been away for a month already? It only feels like yesterday. But for us, it felt like a lot longer than a month. It felt like 6 months or something. It had gone by a lot more slowly because we were experiencing new things all the time. We went to Kotor in Montenegro, this old town full of cats and climbed the castle and saw the bay. When we were falling asleep in Croatia, we could hear wolves howling in the distance. We had all these new, rich, meaningful memories, and that kind of slowed down time for us. So I realized very much set against the contrast of being indoors on my laptop all the time over the last few years, that actually what makes life meaningful and happy and something worth remembering is actually just Doing stuff, getting out there and experiencing new things. So all of these things together. Oh, and also I did some research for that book about how to not get manipulated, where I joined a cult, which I wasn't really looking forward to. I had to go away for a whole weekend to this cult, kind of light cult in the woods for a weekend. And I really wasn't looking forward to it, but my co-author is very stubborn and very much badgered me into it. And it was so kind of transformative and special and meaningful. I mean, maybe the cult brainwashed me, I don't know. Um, but it was a really great experience. Um, and so all of these things together just really made me realize that, hey, I need to actually get out of this routine and the screens and, and go and try crazy new things.
Leanne ElliottAnd I mean, 52 is quite a commitment. Where did that timeline come from?
Patrick FaganHmm. Yeah, it seemed easy at the time. It didn't really seem like a big deal, but actually, yeah, it's, It was hard work planning, planning them. Uh, they were harder to plan than you might think. For example, I wanted to see a psychic, have a psychic reading. I thought this would be easy. I'll just Google psychic near me. Um, no, it's very difficult actually to find someone. Um, and the weird thing is, a couple of days later, I was driving past a pub near my house and there was this big sign saying psychics every Thursday. So I almost feel like, you know, psychically it was out there in the universe, but planning them was difficult. Thinking of them was difficult. Coming up with 52 things is harder than you think. And then it's also quite expensive. I mean, it was more expensive than it needed to be. Most of them were free, but I did things like went to Monaco to go to a casino, which I didn't need to go to Monaco for that. But yeah, it was fairly expensive in the end.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganBut once you kind of get the ball rolling, it just kind of happens and you tell people about it and they give you their ideas. If anyone's thinking of doing it, you don't have to make such a huge commitment. You could do one new thing a month, for example.
Leanne ElliottWhat were some of your highlights? Like if you were saying, if somebody wanted to try this, which ones would you recommend?
Patrick FaganOh, well, that's really difficult. I really enjoyed meeting people that I had caricatures of, or that maybe I disagreed with politically. I'll give you an example. I think it's a fairly safe example is Just Stop Oil, which I understand the intentions, but I just see them in the news and I think, God, they're so annoying, like throwing paint on paintings and lying down in front of cars. Well, I hate these people. And so I went to one of their meetups.
Al ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganAnd it was so eye-opening to kind of meet them. And no longer were they these caricatures in my mind, that they're real flesh and blood people with hopes and dreams and big fears and anxieties. And it really did something for me in terms of empathy. So there was that. There was also, I went to a My Little Pony convention. Again, bronies in my mind were these kind of weird cartoonish, ironically, caricatures.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganBut then, you know, I met them, they're actual people, and it changed how I see them a bit. I mean, not completely, but it changed it a bit. I went to a BDSM nightclub, which is not, you know, each to their own. Everyone needs a hobby, but it's not my cup of tea. But it was very interesting again to see these as real people. So that's one of the things I really take away, one of my favorite things to do, anything involving people and also anything involving— something that I didn't really want to do. So for example, a cuddle workshop where I had to cuddle strangers. You haven't lived until you felt a strange man's grizzled face between your hands as you stare into his eyes for a minute, which as an introvert, I absolutely hated that. But the struggle, the awkwardness, the challenge, it was actually what made it meaningful. So those are the— if you're gonna start anywhere, I would start with—
Al ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganWhat do you really not want to do? What's something that you would say, God, I'd never do that? I think you have to immediately put that on the list. And then anything where you're going and getting out of your comfort zone socially, I guess, and meeting people and talking to people that normally you wouldn't.
Leanne ElliottI have to follow up on some of these experiences. I mean, you mentioned first of all that at the cult, you call it a cult light, and it was transformative. Tell us about that because I'm sure there'll be eyebrows raised. By some people listening to this.
Patrick FaganSo for that book, I joined 2 cults. One, I think it's safe to say it is a cult, although I can't say that because they're very litigious. So I actually wrote a chapter on that, but I couldn't, we couldn't publish it because they were so litigious and their lawyers sent this big letter when we asked if they had any comments. You can probably guess who that is, right? They did a personality test and all of that. The other one was I think it's a little unfair to call it a cult, but it, you know, it's sensational. So I do. But what they do essentially is kind of like a psychological therapy for men. So it's a men's meetup in the woods where they take away your phone and your jewelry and take away your name and give you a number. And then you kind of do these therapy exercises where another person acts like your dad and you shout at him.
Al ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganUh, and get out all of your frustrations and vent that you might have against your father. Um, there was one point where we all sat around naked, uh, talking about our, our sexual insecurities and stuff. Um, which sounds crazy, I guess, in the way it was, but it was, it was, um, yeah, it was transformative. It was definitely memorable, I'll tell you that. But, um, it was just getting out there and having these like showers outside at 6:00 AM in the morning and doing a sweat lodge and These kinds of things, dancing around a bonfire at night, is cathartic in a way. It was, it was, there's this psychological principle called disrupt and reframe, where if you want to change people's behaviours and habits, you have to kind of grab them and shake them a little bit. You have to get people out of an old habit if you want to introduce a new one. I think in that sense, It was very powerful because it was a very odd, new experience that kind of shakes you up a bit and allows you to break off, break old habits, kind of break them down and get free of them a bit. So cultish, I mean, they did lots of cult things, like they took away my name. And when I arrived, actually, everyone was sat in this tiny room and they were all kind of cramped together. It was almost Guantanamo Bay light. Like, it was very uncomfortable and they all had to squeeze in there. It turned out they all had to wait in that room until everyone had arrived. And I was about an hour late because I'd stopped off for Burger King on the way. So they definitely used these kind of cult-ish techniques, but I would say to good effect.
Leanne ElliottThere's something I'd imagine quite liberating about that as well, kind of breaking all of those Those social norms. Yeah, I can see the cathartic aspect of that. And I also wanna ask you about the psychic. Did you go and were they right? Did they predict your future?
Patrick FaganYeah, I went to the psychic. It was very interesting. She said some quite wise things to me. She said a lot of bollocks as well, if I'm being honest. But she said some things about, funnily enough, about business, about how I should Make sure I read contracts properly and protect my IP. She told me about, she kind of psychically guessed with a lot of help from me that I had a friend who was going through a tough time. So she was like, oh, you have a friend called George who's died. And I said, no, I have a friend called George, but he's not dead. But I guess, and then she goes, well, he's going through some tough times. And I said, No, but I have another friend who is. And she went, yes, yes, that's the one. So I'm not really convinced that she is psychic. However, she gave me some really good advice about that friend and about, as I said, business. And that was a theme that I found with a couple of these things, was that insight and wisdom came from surprising sources. So from the psychic, for example, and also from an acupuncturist.
Al ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganSo I had this problem with my mouth where I had kind of tingliness and numbness in my tongue sometimes. And I went to doctors and they couldn't see anything wrong. They couldn't find anything wrong. I even went to a specialist and I said, I have a funny feeling in my mouth. And he diagnosed it as oral dysesthesia, which means funny feeling in the mouth. So I was like, that's great, £300 well spent. But then this acupuncturist, He told me I have too much fire energy and I have a hot mouth and I need to drink more water. And so I started drinking more water and it actually helped and it's basically gone away. So I wasn't drinking enough water, I guess. But none of the experts or the doctors told me that. So as kind of crazy as it was, it was actually really helpful. So again, getting out of your bubble and seeking wisdom where you might not normally find it.
Leanne ElliottAnd I suppose it sounds a lot as well like it's facilitating that reflection, introspection that That was quite powerful.
Patrick FaganYeah, absolutely. I mean, with acupuncture, I really enjoyed it and I have people who really rave about it, that it's really helped them with illnesses and physical ailments. For me, it was just the fact that I was kind of pinned down like a butterfly to a table for an hour and I couldn't move and I had to just be there and reflect on my thoughts, which was a very similar experience in the flotation tank. Just not being distracted for an hour, not being on my phone or emails or whatever it might be, and just having time to reflect is actually extremely powerful because that allows you even subconsciously to face up to your anxieties and deal with them, and you come away from it feeling much better.
Leanne ElliottPatrick's told us about his year of radical experimentation. We're talking cult weekends, psychic readings, but here's where it actually gets really interesting for leaders.
Al ElliottYeah, after this short break, we're gonna rejoin the interview where Patrick talks about the difference between pleasure and purpose, And why your employees might be craving struggle without even knowing it. Don't go anywhere.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Patrick FaganAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Patrick FaganSeamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Patrick FaganUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Patrick FaganIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Patrick FaganI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Patrick FaganDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. Let's discover why forced fun might actually be a good thing and how leaders might be able to use Patrick's MARVELS framework to create genuinely transformative workplace experiences.
Leanne ElliottI think it's such an awesome way to learn more, as you say, about ourselves, about other people. But what does the science say? What does the science say about going through these experiences, this novelty, and how it links to our happiness and wellbeing?
Patrick FaganSo the science says, first of all, that experiences make us happy, especially compared to material things. So there was, I think, a diary study that found that someone who'd just purchased something experiential, like a dinner with friends, for example, versus someone who bought something material, the people who bought something experiential were 6% happier, which is statistically significant. So, and there's other studies on this as well, but experiences generally do make you happier. And there's all sorts of reasons to that. Might be because they're social and we're very social creatures and we like being around other people. It's cathartic. Also, There was a study, I think, I'm not sure if it came out recently, but I saw it recently on mind wandering. And it found that activities or moments with more mind wandering tend to be less happy. So if you're kind of ruminating or reflecting on things, you tend to be less happy than if you're just getting stuck in and doing something and getting lost in something, which is flow, of course. One of the things that makes people happiest is spending time with kids. I think the only thing that makes people happier than that is making kids, according to that study. So, if you're like doing something and you're absorbed in something, you're not kind of ruminating on your anxieties and your stress. So, I think that's what makes you happy from it as well. And then there's also, as I said, the memory component. If you're doing new things, meaningful things, these are just stored more richly in memory.
Al ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganAnd it kind of, as I said, slows time down a little bit, I think.
Leanne ElliottI know our listeners, I know some are gonna be thinking, this is really cool, I'm gonna try one new thing every week. There'll be others going, I've got kids, I've got a full-time job, I've not got the time. How can we approach this in a way that is maybe a little bit more digestible?
Patrick FaganWell, I think there's a psychological principle that actually cults use called incrementalism. So you need to take people through the lobby before you show them the penthouse. So you don't have to commit to this huge daunting 52 new things project. You can just do little breadcrumbs, just try something new here and there. I mean, since that year, I've now committed to doing just something every weekend, typically with my family. It doesn't have to be a big thing, going to Bird World, for instance, going, even just going, popping out to Nando's on a Sunday, but just Getting out of the house and just having some new mini experience. Because actually, in that year, some of the most memorable experiences were quite small, and it was the minutiae which made them special. So I really enjoyed seeing my first sunrise. I actually purposefully like sat down and watched the sun come up for the first time. And that's not a big deal. The sun rises every day, right? But there were all these little details, like the little birds flirting and playing with each other, the crunching of the ice under my boots.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganThese small things are what made it special. So they don't need to be grand things. There were 2 things on my list I didn't get to do. I wanted to go to North Korea and I wanted to go cage diving because sharks are my biggest fear. And I was like, if I have to do anything that I don't want to do, it'd probably be that. I didn't get to do those. But my point is it doesn't have to be those, although North Korea's borders are now open. If anyone wants to do that, feel free to come with me. It doesn't have to be those. It can be small things like sunrise, or I had my first döner kebab. Yeah, they don't have to be huge things.
Leanne ElliottI'm wondering then, can this then potentially be an extension of hobbies we already have? So, for example, I love to cook. So, if my new thing is, right, every month I'm gonna do a new recipe, something I'd never attempt, or I feel I don't think I'd like, or can it be an extension of things we're already doing?
Patrick FaganI think it depends what you're trying to get out of it. So, I've picked up the guitar again for the first time. In many years, and I'm getting more value out of trying to learn songs that I wouldn't have before, if that makes sense. So that use different techniques, different kinds of riffs, et cetera, because it's like getting out of your comfort zone, getting out of what you already know. I think it has so much more, I don't know, exponential power to learn what you're doing. Whereas if you're just kind of in your safety zone, Uh, you're not really learning that much new. Um, however, I think if you're going for the kind of really memorable and, and transformative experiences, then you need to just abandon everything that you currently know and do and just try something completely new and wild.
Leanne ElliottSo with that in mind then, because as you say, it sounds like the, the experiences that push us out of our comfort zone make us more uncomfortable, will it have more of a transformative impact than activities that we might find pleasurable. Where's that? What is that difference then between pleasure and meaning, and why is it important?
Patrick FaganIt's really interesting. So there's some psychological research on happiness that says there's 2 dimensions to happiness, pleasure and purpose. So having like a lovely, I don't know, I mean, this is not the height of pleasure, but For example, going to Nando's and eating the peri chips and a chicken burger, very pleasurable, hedonistic. And that does contribute to happiness to an extent. But I think too much of that and too little purpose actually makes people miserable, which is something I think kind of we're seeing at the minute. You know, we're very comfortable and there's these trends like having a cold shower or or dipping yourself in ice water in the morning. And I think the whole point of that is to kind of reset your pleasure centers, to give yourself deliberately some pain, some light pain and struggle, because then the rest of the day doesn't seem so difficult. Whereas if you're happy and relaxed and comfortable all the time, then little stressors actually cause a lot more anxiety and stress than they should. So too much pleasure is probably a bad thing. Purpose is interesting because, you know, we live in an age where brands and tech platforms are trying to make things as easy and frictionless for us as possible. But again, that might be making us miserable. Actually, a little bit of friction in the right way, a little bit of struggle is actually a good thing, as I found with these experiences. You know, if they were awkward, difficult, that actually made them more meaningful. So I think there's a great opportunity.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganFor experiences to add friction, but in a good, good way to give people purpose.
Al ElliottOkay. So, so far we've heard about Patrick's personal transformation through these really uncomfortable experiences, but I'm thinking about our listeners who are managing teams, people with limited budgets and even more limited time.
Leanne ElliottExactly. Because while joining a cult might be transformative, I'm not sure most HR departments would approve that as team building. But Patrick's insight about struggle creating meaning, now that's something every leader can use.
Al ElliottAnd this connects to something we're seeing everywhere, really— the back-to-office debates, discussions about forced fun, questions about how to create authentic connection in hybrid teams.
Leanne ElliottWhat if the answer isn't making work more comfortable, but making it more intentionally challenging in the right ways?
Al ElliottSo here's Patrick explaining how leaders can apply his discoveries without sending their teams to cuddle workshops.
Leanne ElliottSo how could teams or leaders use this idea and these principles to to build that connection, that meaningful work?
Patrick FaganSo I think anytime that you're creating experiences for people, you're going to be fostering bonding between people and colleagues. So back in my, uh, young man single days, I had a, a, a principle to take a date to a second location. So you go from the restaurant then to a bar or, or whatever it might be. And because you're going into that experience together and you're, you're, you're experiencing it together, that creates kind of social links and bonding, and you're kind of tackling, facing something together. So it's very good, I think, from a morale and teamwork perspective. Also from an empathy perspective, if you can get people to see, say, their colleagues' perspectives or live life, do an experience that a colleague does. I don't know if a colleague—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Patrick Fagandoes marathons, maybe that's not the best example, but if a colleague does marathons, get everyone else to do that so you can, with the colleagues, you can kind of see life from their perspective a bit, resulting in empathy. Yeah, just more experiences, I would say.
Leanne ElliottI like this idea of experiencing something that a colleague might. What springs to mind for me is having worked in kind of operational delivery, there was always a bit of tension with compliance. Because there was things that we wanted to do and the ways that they insisted we needed to be done. So, it seems like what would like job swaps or kind of shadowing and that type of thing might be effective.
Patrick FaganYeah, I think so. I think that's a really good idea. Job swaps. I like that.
Leanne ElliottAnd how about in terms of like the socials? Because we hear a lot of organisations say, oh, you want to have a fun culture and we want people to have these shared experiences, but they're often things like away days or going to the pub after work and kind of encroaching on employees' time. How do organizations use these principles so it's effective without seeming intrusive?
Patrick FaganIt's really difficult, I suppose, because as I said, struggle is kind of part of effective experiences. So in a way, I've always not been the biggest fan of forced fun, but now that I think about it after this, I think forced fun might actually be a bit of a good thing because if it's a bit awkward, That's probably kind of the point. And it, yeah, it's the struggle and challenge of it that makes the experience meaningful. But that's an interesting point you raise that it's usually in employees' time, but actually there's so much benefit to it in terms of wellbeing, social connection, seeing things from other people's point of view and making life and work meaningful.
Al ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganArguably, it should be part of the job really, rather than something that's tacked on outside of hours. But most work is just, you know, sat on Zoom calls and staring at a screen, and that's when life goes by in a blink. I think as an employer, you'd probably want people to have a different relationship with work, right? And not have this, I guess, like that TV show Severance, where your work life and your not work life are so separated. And I think that resonates because the work life is so screen-based and often remote and indoors that you're not actually forming rich memories. It's just, it just goes by in a blink, right? If you're on the laptop all day, you look back on the day, you don't really remember anything. Probably it's useful for leaders if actually people relate to work as something meaningful that they remember and actually connects deep.
Al ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganCreates deep connections in their memory, which would involve experiences.
Leanne ElliottI can also imagine some people going, oh, well, that's why we should make everyone go back to the office then, so we have these experiences. But it's not the point. It's more the intentionality of the experience, the potential novelty of it, and yeah, how the team engages with it. Is that fair?
Patrick FaganYeah, absolutely. I mean, it's probably not popular, but I do see the value of getting people to go to the office, at least a little bit. I do think it's important. But absolutely, yeah, try and create more of an experience, I suppose, in the same way that retailers are trying to create more experiential shopping, the way that in London here, the mayor has just announced that experiences are a big pillar of the economy for London. Marketers are doing more and more experience marketing, secret cinema type events, VR and AR events, these kind of things. I think we should probably bring that into the workplace and have experiential workplaces. Why not?
Leanne ElliottWhat would that look like if you were in charge of putting that together? Where would you start?
Patrick FaganOh gosh. That's a good question though. That could be a whole new kind of industry. I guess I can kind of think through this out loud. I mean, one thing I'm thinking is, don't necessarily have to work in the same place every day or every week now. I mean, there's remote working. cafes, there's parks. Why not mix it up a bit? That could be one way to do it. So I did a project for an experience marketing company called We Are Collider, and they design these experiences for brands. And I found the psychological levers that make experiences more effective in marketing. And we came up with this acronym, MARVELS. So M is for magic, which is about making things emotional, surprising, and different. So any kind of magic you could sprinkle into the workday of things that basically people haven't seen before, that become the emotional peak of their day. You know, the peak-end rule, we remember the emotional peak. So if you go on holiday, you remember the jet skiing, but you don't remember the flight really as a rule, because it was very boring. So I think the problem with work is that it tends to be the flight that people don't remember. And then they maybe remember going to the pub afterwards, which is the peak of their day. So can you bring in an emotional peak, ideally a good one, to the day? The A is for adequacy, which is just about meeting basic standards, being comfortable, having amenities, which I think most workplaces do just fine, but also going above and beyond those standards with little kind of surprise and delight moments. So companies do this already, I guess, with having pizza for lunch, especially if people aren't expecting it, and especially if it's a pizza from a nice pizza place. For instance, just those surprise and delight moments help a lot. The R is for relevance. I guess that could be figuring out what your employees care about and bringing more of that into the workplace rather than just being this functional thing where employers often are just kind of extracting, taking what they want from the employees, you know, not to generalize too much, but could it go the other way a little bit and finding out what employees want and giving it to them and being relevant. It doesn't necessarily have to cost anything, but people have hobbies and interests, don't they?
Al ElliottYeah.
Patrick FaganV is for value, which is about getting something out of the experience, which again can be freebies. People like gifts and things, but it can also be information, learning, curiosity. So any kind of anything new or interesting that you can bring into the workplace would be good. E is for exchange, which is about interactivity. So, can you have an element of physicality about the workplace of interacting with things? Typically, Google might have a slide in the workplace. I mean, maybe that's a bit of a trite example, but just things that people can physically interact with and not just be passive. L is for labeling, which is about branding. Don't think that really applies here, but I suppose The takeaway is what kind of sensory flashbulb impression are you leaving of the workplace? Is it somewhere with office chairs and halogen lights and plastic tables? That's probably not great versus if it's somewhere more kind of comfortable and nice to be. And then the final one, the S is for social, which I think we've talked about a lot. Can you foster those social connections between people?
Leanne ElliottI love that, and I'm sorry for putting you on the spot, Pat, but that was brilliant. And I can see, I can see entrepreneurs loving that as well. Like you say, there's just so many little ways that they can add that little bit of magic or improve the relevance. And I think particularly around, um, as you say, this whole conversation about people bringing their whole selves to work, which can sound a bit fluffy and a bit meh, but if you're talking about in a way of, well, what are they interested in? What are their hobbies? What are is valuable to them and bringing that into that environment will be really powerful.
Patrick FaganYeah, absolutely. Especially with AI as it is, there's certain, you know, there's PII and data privacy and stuff, but I'm sure there's data that you can get on your employees and feed it into an LLM and it'll give you really good, creative, relevant recommendations for things that they'd like.
Leanne ElliottI have to ask you about your whole experience and kind of its impact on your happiness. Were you happier?
Patrick FaganWell, I mean, I was very unhappy to begin with. So yeah, in that sense, yeah, definitely. No, it definitely did make me happier. And also the lessons that I've taken forward from it have definitely made me happier. So I, as a rule, don't work weekends anymore, except last weekend I did work, I have to say. But generally speaking, I don't work weekends anymore. I'm quite like strict about that because weekends are very, very, very important. For experiencing things, spending time with family and resting. And that might sound obvious, but I see some people seem to think weekends are disposable. Like Elon Musk says he works every weekend. It's a superpower. And I don't think, I don't know, he's very successful. So what do I know? But for me personally, I don't function as well if I'm not taking that time to rest and experience new things. And then all of the The lessons that I learned have helped with happiness. So things like empathy. So I don't, if I see a group like Just Stop Oil in the news, you know, they used to annoy me. I don't really get annoyed by things in the news anymore. I actually don't watch the news at all, to be honest. But I find it hard to dislike groups of people because I've kind of realized everyone's human. Everyone has their own motives. Everyone believes their beliefs. Everyone wants the best. for themselves and their family, generally speaking. So that really opened my eyes, and I think I'm happier for that. You know, I don't hold grudges or anything. And I also learned kind of new things. So when I went to the cuddle workshop, I learned about melting hugs and armchair hugs, which is something that my wife now loves. So she's definitely benefited from that.
Leanne ElliottWhat are they?
Patrick FaganSo melting hug is where you go up to someone and you hug them, And then you kind of breathe into them. So as you exhale, you kind of like both exhale together and melt together. An armchair hug is where the other person is sitting down and you sit behind them, and with your legs and your arms, you kind of envelop them like an armchair.
Leanne ElliottWow. And they're higher quality hugs?
Patrick FaganThat's a good— yeah, I would say, yeah, the melting hug is definitely, because a normal hug can be a bit like, I don't know, superficial, you know, not really putting any effort into it. Whereas a melting hug, like you're really getting into the hug.
Leanne ElliottI love that. And I suppose the breathing aspect of it as well will connect with that. Okay. So your wife is, your wife is getting high quality hugs, which every wife should. And how about, how about with your son? Has it impacted any of your approach to parenting?
Patrick FaganDefinitely in terms of the fact that I'm now very deliberate about doing things. With him. Uh, we have a new baby as well, 9 weeks old, so.
Leanne ElliottOh, congratulations.
Patrick FaganUm, with, with both of them eventually. Thank you. Um, other than that, I'm not sure I learned anything about parenthood. I probably should have done something parent-related, but I'm looking forward to kind of doing crazy stuff with him when he's old enough.
Leanne ElliottI heard when you were speaking, um, on, on Phil's show that you were talking about how you allowed, uh, or you asked ChatGPT to plan your day whilst you're on holiday. So if somebody's listening to this on a beach somewhere, would you recommend handing over the control to ChatGPT?
Patrick FaganOh yeah, absolutely. For me, when I'm on holiday, I always have this huge fear that I'm not using my time properly. So if I'm just relaxing, I'm like, oh, I need to be going out doing an olive oil tasting tour or something. Whereas if I'm out, I'm like, oh, I need to be relaxing. I never relax. So it's that effort and risk and responsibility always gets to me on holiday. So it was really nice just to farm it out to ChatGPT. And I had a great day. It wasn't perfect. I ate 3 cheese pizzas, which was enjoyable at first, but not by the last one. It wasn't enjoyable. But yeah, it didn't understand context all that well, and it got quite a few things wrong. But this was a couple of years ago, so I assume it would be much better if I did it now. But it was overall a good day. It was nice. I saw new things. I had new experiences. I had pistachio ice cream for the first time. I didn't have to worry about if I was using my time responsibly, 'cause that was someone else's problem. It was ChatGPT's problem. So, I would definitely recommend it.
Leanne ElliottI must say that Al and I have used ChatGPT 2 years in a row to plan back our drive from Bosnia to the UK every Christmas. Some of the places it's taken us, man. Amazing. Never would've found them otherwise.
Al ElliottBrilliant.
Patrick FaganIt's actually a great drive. I love driving through through Bosnia, there's this road by, it's kind of carved into the cliff by this river. Oh, it's beautiful.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it is. It's also terrifying at the rate they overtake, but yeah, it is. You die somewhere beautiful, which is, yeah, a good thing, I guess.
Patrick FaganI saw these tyre marks, like skid marks going over the side of the road.
Leanne ElliottIt's an adrenaline rush driving in Bosnia, for sure. I think that's a great tip, and that relinquishing control as well. Is there any other kind of quick tips you'd give to anybody listening to this on a On a beach somewhere, sunning?
Patrick FaganWell, I guess in contrast to what I just said about ChatGPT, but put the phone down. I was on a beach in Cancun and it was so strange to look around and see everyone looking at their devices when they're on probably one of the most beautiful natural places you could be in the world. And I think phones are making us unhappy as well for various reasons. But screen time, I think, is just not good for us. So yeah, if you're, if you're on the beach, enjoy the beach.
Leanne ElliottBe present. I love it.
Al ElliottThat was Patrick Fagan, and I hope that he's made you rethink a little bit about your employee experience.
Leanne ElliottAnd let's wrap up with our top 3 takeaways for leaders who do want to create more meaningful work.
Al ElliottLesson 1, stop avoiding productive struggle. Patrick's research shows that experiences requiring effort and pushing comfort zones create deeper meaning than pure pleasure. So maybe consider job swaps or challenging cross-functional projects, or maybe just deliberately awkward team exercises.
Leanne ElliottAnd lesson 2, think about the Marvels framework. Although it is traditionally used for brands, a lot of it applies to building meaningful workplaces too. So try to create magic through emotional peaks, focus on relevance by tapping into employee interests, provide real value through learning, and encourage exchange and social connection through interactivity. So I suppose it's Marvels for brands and Mr. Vess for workplaces.
Al ElliottAnd number 3, embrace that intentional friction. Don't try and avoid it. While some companies focus on making everything frictionless, Patrick argues that some struggle is actually essential for meaning at work. This could be as simple as maybe collaborative problem-solving sessions or learning opportunities that stretch people's capabilities.
Leanne ElliottNow, careful not to oversimplify Patrick's approach here. It's not about making work harder. It's about making it more intentionally experimental. When every day feels the same, we unintentionally remove tension. But when we create novel, challenging social experiences, we slow down time and build deeper connections.
Al ElliottYou can find Patrick at justdostuff.co.uk, where he documents his ongoing experiments, or patrick-fagan.com.
Leanne ElliottThat's all for today. Remember, comfort might feel good, but struggle creates stories worth remembering.
Al ElliottNow go and do something that makes you slightly uncomfortable. Your future self almost certainly will thank you for it.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work. We will see you next week. Oh, and if you are looking for something to do and haven't left us a review yet, maybe try that.
Al ElliottIt's not that uncomfortable. Very easy to do.
Patrick FaganBye-bye.