Episode 233 · 18 September 2025 · 44:14
The 1st HR leader who didn't carry a gun: Meet Amy Bouque, Chief People Officer at Kelly Services
The 1st HR leader who didn't carry a gun: Meet Amy Bouque, Chief People Officer at Kelly Services
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Intro: Amy's first day in a Detroit manufacturing plant
Meeting Amy: 30 years in HR, from labor relations to Chief People Officer
interview#hr#chief-people-officer#career
The advice that changed Amy's career trajectory
interview#career-advice#mentorship#leadership
What Amy 30 years ago did that she doesn't do today
How important is it that your team likes you?
Building culture when money is tight — the 'Yes, And' approach
interview#company-culture#budget#yes-and
Trust, outcomes, and the messy middle
interview#trust#outcomes#management
Leading across five generations
Practical advice for leaders of 75 people
The Content-Pattern-Relationship framework for difficult conversations
How personal loss shaped Amy's leadership philosophy
Phantom poopers, naked Barbies, and the stories Amy won't investigate
Show notes
The HR Leader Who Didn't Carry a Gun: Amy Bouque's 30 Years of Brutal Honesty
Welcome back to Truth, Lies & Work — the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture.
This week, Al and Leanne bring you one of the most brutally honest interviews they've ever had. Amy Bouque, Chief People Officer at Kelly Services, joins the show to share stories from her 30-year HR career that most C-suite executives would never dare share publicly.
Picture this: you're in your mid-twenties, walking into a Detroit manufacturing plant for your first day as head of labor relations. Your job involves firing at least one person every single week. And you discover you're a very different person to everyone who did this job before you — because you're the first woman in the role, and more importantly, the first one who doesn't carry a gun.
From devastating personal loss that changed her leadership philosophy to investigating phantom poopers and naked Barbies in compromising positions, Amy gives us an unfiltered look at the messy reality of leading people.
Key Takeaways
1. Connection Beats Command
Amy learned the hard way that moving fast and making decisions quickly meant nothing if her team didn't want to work for her. Slow down, invest in relationships, and yes — it matters if your team likes you.
2. Embrace the Messy Middle
Sometimes you do work Sundays. No, you might not be comfortable with someone working 20 hours for 40 hours of pay. It's okay to admit the complex reality instead of pretending everything's perfect.
3. Have the Conversation
Script it, practice it, breathe through it — but have the difficult conversation. Not having these conversations isn't kindness; it's disrespectful to your team who already knows who's not pulling their weight.
Leadership Myths Busted
Why the myth that "leaders are born, not made" is holding organizations back — and how Amy's career proves that leadership is learned, often through the messiest possible circumstances.
Real-World Advice for Small Businesses
How to build culture when money is tight using the "Yes, And" approach — a technique Amy picked up from an improv class she took to overcome her fear of public speaking.
More From Amy Bouque
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/amy-bouque-she-her-hers-520a855
- Kelly Services: kellyservices.com
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottPicture this. You're in your mid-20s. You're walking into a Detroit manufacturing plant for your first day as head of labor relations. Your job involves firing at least one person every single week, and you discover that you are a very, very different person to the person who did this job before.
Amy BouqueThere was about 1,000 UAW workers, and every week, about on average, 5 people got fired for absenteeism or performance or fill-in-the-blank, you know, related issues. And I didn't know getting into that space, one, I was the first woman to ever occupy that role. And 2, most importantly, I was the first one to not carry a gun.
Leanne ElliottThat's Amy Bouque, Chief People Officer at Kelly Services. And yes, you heard that right. Everyone before her in that role carried a firearm to work.
Amy BouqueInstead, I had to rely on armed security frequently to walk me to my car because there were individuals who were very disappointed with my decisions.
Al ElliottToday, Amy's giving us one of the most honest interviews we've ever had on what it really takes to lead people the right way.
Leanne ElliottAmy tells us story after story from her 30-year career in HR, including how her then-boss reacted to a heartbreaking miscarriage, why a naked CEO stood on a table, and how Amy dealt with a literally crappy situation in a work toilet, as well as plenty of practical advice for leaders and business owners just like you.
Al ElliottThese are the confessions most C-suite executives would never dare to share publicly, but Amy is not like most C-suite executives.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies, and Work, award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottSo today we're getting something rare, we're getting brutal honesty from the C-suite. Amy Bouque has spent 30 years in HR, rising from those terrifying days in the Detroit factory to becoming Chief People Officer of a $5 billion global workforce solutions company. Fancy!
Leanne ElliottAnd unlike most executives who give you polished talking points, Amy's about to share the messy reality, including investigations into phantom poopers, naked Barbies in compromising positions, and the moment a mentor told her that her team couldn't stand her.
Al ElliottSo if you're a leader who's ever worried about getting it wrong, or you're a small business owner wondering how to build culture without endless resources, Amy's confessions are about to make you feel a lot less alone.
Leanne ElliottAfter this quick break, we'll hear how a devastating personal loss changed Amy's entire leadership philosophy and why she was the first person in her role who didn't need armed protection.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Amy BouqueNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Amy BouqueMy name is Amy Bouque. I am privileged to serve as Kelly Services Chief People Officer here in the United States, and Kelly Services is a global workforce solutions provider headquartered here in Troy that connects talented people with companies in need of skills. It was founded 79 years ago next month, and we're roughly a $5 billion organization. We're the pioneers of the staffing business.
Al ElliottI wanna kick things off. Almost 30 years in HR, was there a point where, like an inflection point in your career or anything that stood out as like, yeah, things started to change here?
Amy BouqueUnlike a lot of professional human resources people, I started my career in the manufacturing spaces, in the labor relations. And in the '90s, I was a young suburban sort of middle-class white young woman working in an inner-city Detroit plant. And I was doing the labor relations, which meant every week on Mondays and Thursdays, we did termination hearings. There was about 1,000 UAW workers, and every week, about on average, 5 people got fired for absenteeism or performance or fill-in-the-blank related issues. And it was my responsibility to ferret out those decisions. Should we give the person a second chance? Should we keep the termination? And I didn't know getting into that space, one, I was the first woman to ever occupy that role, and two, most importantly, I was the first one to not carry a gun. I didn't have a permit to carry the gun, and instead I had to rely on armed security frequently to walk me to my car because there were individuals who were very disappointed with my decisions. And even the union would say, hey, Amy, I'm a little worried about that. But what it taught me, and sort of in those moments, it taught me about humanity, about connection. There was a moment where I was working with a plant manager, and actually the next plant, which is the Louisville, Kentucky plant, where I learned a lot about the relationships. And even though we could be in these contentious and sometimes adversarial relationships, we could care about the other, we could demonstrate and care and connect, and we started to do things outside of the room. And so what I learned was that connection and that my husband jokingly calls it the meeting before the meeting to plan the meeting, which I'm fine. It's funny, but also true. I learned that we didn't go into any of those conversations before pre-agreeing how we were gonna see it play out. And it was almost like we went in and we just sort of got into role and they argued and I argued and then we negotiated and then we settled, but it was already done. Because we were working through those outside of the room, and that connection, that relationship, that caring and investment has carried me through my career. I spent about a dozen years in manufacturing in that labor-facing role, both as, you know, first the labor lead, but then the HR lead for these large manufacturing plants, and I remember I had a mentor at the time who said, after about 10 years, it's, you know, working in labor can start to change your personality, And it did. I saw it starting to affect my personality. I'm like, I better get out of this. Otherwise I'm never gonna trust another human being again.
Al ElliottI have a note down here that there was a particular point that kind of changed the career trajectory for you. Is that something you feel like you could talk to, talk about?
Amy BouqueI would love to. And I'd love to share the advice that, that may have hit me hard, but was really great advice. So in 1998, a lifetime ago, after the heartbreaking loss of a pregnancy, I'd been 22 weeks pregnant and looking forward to welcoming our first child. And I found out that wasn't gonna be possible. And I took a little bit of time off work and I came back to the office or back to the plant. And this is when I was still at that Detroit plant. And the plant manager at the time sat me down and he said, I want you to know in my career, he was much older than I, he said, I don't measure people by how they behave when they get what they want. I measure them by how they behave when they don't get what they want. And I gotta tell you, that was like a gut punch at the time. You know, I get that in other spaces, but I didn't get that there. And then I reflected that he was reframing resilience. He was reframing grief and repair and recovery, not as toughness, but also just like how to show up in the midst of loss and deep challenges. And that experience shaped leadership style, both in terms of how I help my peers or those that work for me reshaping when things don't go the way they want at work, but it also helps me to lean in in a more intimate and personal, human-centered way when things are not going well for them outside of work. And it's something I invite your listeners to consider, which is don't be afraid of having a hard conversation. Don't be afraid of looking someone in the eye that you know is going through a really challenging moment and sit in that same space with them and sit with their humanity and the connection, the care that gets cultivated in those moments are priceless. So, you know, doors and windows, right? So the door had closed, but a window had opened. The next conversation I had with him a week or two later was that there was a promotional opportunity for me to be considered for out of state. I was too young and too inexperienced for the opportunity, but did they want, did he want me to put, did he want to put my name in the hat for the opportunity? And I said, absolutely. And I went home and spoke to my husband. I'm like, how do you feel about moving? And of course I would've much rather been pregnant, but that just wasn't an option available. And so we went all in and within 6 weeks we had sold our house and we had moved out of state. And, um, I really feel like in some cases things, you know, things don't go the way you want, but there's something else on the other side that may never fill that space, but it absolutely is, um, a gift in and of itself.
Leanne ElliottAmy moved and started a new life, but imagine your new boss told you very early on that your new team didn't actually like you very much. Most executives would never admit that this happened to them, but Amy not only admits it, she says it's the best thing that ever happened to her career. But before we hear that story, let's hear what she thinks might be one of the main challenges of rising up the ranks to the C-suite so quickly.
Amy Bouque2 thoughts came to my mind. I'd love to share both. The first one is my CEO, Peter Quigley, said, you know, the higher you rise in the organization, so, if you're founder-led, or, you know, sort of part of a larger group, more and more gets filtered to you. Meaning less and less truth gets spoken to you, and that you have to look for the truth-tellers more intentionally, and you have to welcome truth. And my practice for doing that is when I'm with my team is I always ask them when we're brainstorming ideas, and I'm worried that they're just saying yes to me because they're— that we may not be having a fulsome sort of conversation about something, is I invite them to tell me 3 reasons why that might fail. Let's talk about it. Let's just invite 3 reasons why this is a bad idea. I think it's a really great practice because it invites, it's a very specific invitation to plan ahead for why something might not work. And then the other area I was thinking about is this myth that leaders, people are born into being leaders and that there's a certain prototype or personality type, whether or not you do StrengthsFinders or DiSC or film, Myers-Briggs. And I don't think that's true. I do believe that our practice, our habits, our willingness to be vulnerable, sit in discomfort of receiving feedback, having difficult conversations if there's concerns around somebody's performance makes us good leaders. I certainly am not the person I was 30 years ago through a whole lot of practice, self-reflection, and really good guidance from mentors and teammates who are willing to say the hard thing to me.
Al ElliottSo what did Amy 30 years ago do that she doesn't do today?
Amy BouqueI remember distinctly a moment, probably 2006, 2007. I'd moved out of the manufacturing environment and into a more professional— it was with the utility, but my role with our local utility company, but my role was more of a professional corporate role. And the pace I was moving and the decision-making I was moving was more akin to that of the manufacturing floor. where I made probably 100 decisions a day. 90 of them were good, 5 were questionable, but the pace I was moving was unfamiliar to the team that was working for me. And they didn't, quite frankly, my leader sat me down and God bless her, I followed her for a long time and still consider her a trusted advisor because she sat me down and she said, Amy, I gotta tell you, the pace that you're moving and the way that you're engaging your team, they respect you. They know you're smart. They know you're capable, But they don't like you and they don't wanna work for you. I'm like, oh, like another gut punch, but so grateful for her because all of that, all of what I was telling you before about slowing down, investing in the relationships, demonstrating the care, it's because I got it wrong, not because I knew how to do it right. And she was willing to sit me down and say, You're moving too fast. You're talking too fast. You're physically moving too fast. Just the pace in which I was moving my body through the team space was unsettling for the team. And it was really important for me to learn how to match energy, to invest in the care of people, to learn about them as humans. And that shifted a lot for me.
Al ElliottHow important is it that your team likes you as a person?
Amy BouqueYeah, maybe a do-over card. I wouldn't use the like, maybe it's the respect, maybe it's the admire, or probably more than like, right? Because it is respect, admire, appreciate, feel seen and heard by. And I should probably have used those, but I think they're vital skills. And the more and more in which technology disrupts how work gets done, Core human skills like empathy, intellectual curiosity, compassion, I believe, are going to become even more vital than they are today.
Leanne ElliottAmy learned that connection beats command, that slowing down beats speed. And here's where she drops another bombshell confession. She actually calls her team on Sundays sometimes. In the 380 interviews we've done on this podcast, she's the first leader to actually admit this reality. Let's hear some more confessions after this short break. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say— wait, Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, 'cause Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back. Let's hear Amy's thoughts on how to build a culture when money is tight, her surprisingly honest take on work-life balance, and what she really thinks about the different generations in the workplace.
Al ElliottSo let's get down to the businesses where, you know, it's really tough to keep in business. Maybe they've got 25 people. They go, I'd love to give out all these perks like flexible working, work from home, you know, let's make it the best workplace we can be, particularly for the Gen Zs and millennials who demand this. But financially, I'm struggling here. Is there anything they can do?
Amy BouqueYears ago, I took an improv class 'cause I was terrible about speaking in public. And Al, when I tell you that story, it's because I learned in improv training, the first thing they teach you is when you're doing improv, You can't reject anything. You have to yes, and. And so that's become my mantra in life. Yes, and. So when you tell me, yes, we have financial challenges, we can't make payroll, we're struggling to, and also how do we care for people? And so for me, it's not a binary. And this idea that how do you make both things be true? How do you negotiate the messy middle of that? challenge of saying, we have financial challenges, and also I know you are, so let's talk about that and negotiate what that might look like. And each organization's going to have different requirements. It might be the physical office space and how present people have to be to care for clients in person versus what can be done after children go to bed and can get picked up in the evenings. And the ability to negotiate that, what I found If I take it all the way back to the beginning, it's hiring, taking the time to hire and setting expectations and understanding who the person is, right? Because you need somebody who has the ability to flex with you, right? Because sometimes I'm going to need you to pull a late night or yesterday I was working on a project and I saw one of my teammates was online. I'm like, any chance I can call you if I promise to stay off camera? And we worked something out on a Sunday, which I said, I don't try to do this very often, but sometimes we have board meetings today. I needed a little help with something. And so saying the thing, right? I know this is a sacrifice to your family. I know we're in this challenge. I need you to meet me here. And then when that challenge is over, when we're thriving, to take the time to celebrate as a team, to recognize Right? Letting that person know they're part of something bigger than themselves. A lot of people are willing to make that sacrifice, but they wanna know that they're in it with you. One of my favorite taglines I tell my team, we do things with and for people, not to them. And so when you do something to somebody, you're saying, you must be here at this hour, you must be able to do this, you must blah, blah, blah, blah. You're doing something to them. But if you can gather them together and say, this is our mission, this is our purpose, this is what we're working towards, can we work together? to set schedules, to set hours, to set roles, you see the buy-in going up so much more because they see themselves as something bigger than being part of something bigger than themselves. So I don't think it's either or, Al. I think it's a yes and.
Al ElliottI don't think in the, what, the 380 interviews I've done, I don't think we've had someone who's admitted that you sometimes you do have to just work work on a Sunday. And sometimes you do just cheekily go, do you mind if I just jump on a call with you? And most people are saying, oh no, we'd never do that. And you're giving us a glimpse into the real life, I think.
Amy BouqueAbsolutely. Because that same person, I have the privilege of not having to measure hours, right? I measure outcomes. And so I tell my team, I trust you, right? Rachel Botsman's definition of trust is one of my favorite definitions. It's great for parents too, because her definition is a Confident relationship with the unknown. Love it, right? A confident relationship with the unknown. So I don't have to see you, right, in person. That back to my example of like when I came into the workforce where you had to be seen in order to be thought that you were doing your job. I trust you to know where you need to be and when you need to be at and what has to be delivered because we're outcome-focused. But I also know that there's— you also know that at times I'm gonna need you to lean in on something. And I think that reciprocity, that generosity of trust earned, right? Sometimes when people don't keep up the trust, right? If it's broken, then you've got to negotiate a new relationship.
Al ElliottLet's talk about these outcomes. Does that mean then that in theory, and of course I would never talk practicalities, but in theory, some of your team could be working half as long as they're contracted to, as long as they're bringing those outcomes and consistently delivering those outcomes. Would you be fine with that?
Amy BouqueSo when you're saying that my insides are like making all sorts of weird feelings, like all sorts of like, no, I do think there's a future like that. And there's some work like that when you think about how work is negotiated and some that are gig workers or specifically outcome-based teams that negotiate those. For me, it is less about I don't know that I'd be comfortable if somebody's being paid 40 hours and working 20 hours and going, well, I did what you asked me to. That wouldn't make me feel great. What would make me feel great is to say, hey, I'm able to do my core responsibility in those 20 hours, and so I've picked up some, I call it side hustle. I picked up these side hustles that are helping this team over here or building new competencies or enriching the lives of the company at large by doing these things, and I've learned how to teach the balance of the team how to work With this level of efficiency and effectiveness so that we are able to progress and move up our value chain. And so I think that would be more exciting for me. For me, when I think about that flexibility, it's more about if you've got a doctor's appointment at 2, if you need to ring off at 4 because you're spending time with your child, fill in the blank, and then you're ringing back on after the child goes to bed, fine, fine. And if I need you on an occasional Sunday, which I promise I don't do it very often, You're willing to help me there too.
Al ElliottWe've got 5 generations in the workplace today, I think. Is that right? How are we— what's your thoughts then, first of all, on how you're seeing, because you've got so many employees, how are you seeing this panning out in the real world when you've got these 5 generations?
Amy BouqueI think about it a lot in the spirit of, you know, going back 30 years ago when I entered the workforce and how did it feel to match the workplace. I also think about it in terms of recognizing these newer generations, and in particular thinking about the millennials and the Gen Zs in the way in which they're teaching us, right? So I often hear leaders, HR leaders frustrated, sort of labeling generations, right? that generation, right? So for me, when I came to the workplace, I remember I'm a Gen Xer and I worked for, at the time, what was a Silent Generation leader, right? So he was significantly older than I was. And that's the, just for context setting, those are those born like 1930 to 1945 or so. And I remember I had the audacity to ask him for feedback. He said, you know, this is that role where I told you I took that big promotion. I was the head of HR for their flagship plant, 1,000 people in Kentucky. It had just recently gone union. And I came back up to the headquarters to meet with the CHRO at the time, head of HR, Bob Wambuechler. And he said, hey, I'd love to get some feedback on how you think I'm performing against expectations. His exact line was, you and your generation, you all want feedback. It stuck with me because it reminded me that he was of a different, he was just of a different era. But I felt that level of judgment sort of sinking into my body. And one of his peers sort of in a different but similar situation said, you're getting paid every 2 weeks, right? Isn't that your feedback? I'm like, okay, clearly I gotta set my expectations right. And so that was the way I experienced it as the Gen X are coming in with the boomers and the silent generation. That was my experience 30+ years ago. And so, as new generations come into the workforce, behind us, right, the millennials and then the Gen Zs, and I hear some of my peers trying to first paint a broad brush, sort of paintbrush, which I don't think is fair, but I also think they're doing it in a way that denigrates the lived experiences and how much we have to learn from them, right? I came into the workplace at a time where it was not okay to not be in the workplace after your leader and the expectation that you would just stay until after your leader left. And then these millennials, they come behind and they're like, hey, wait, actually I wanna work for an organization that's purpose-driven. I wanna make sure that we have really good collaboration. And by the way, I care about my life outside of work and I'm not willing to sacrifice that. And the Gen Zs even more, right? They're teaching us native digital skills. They're teaching us digital collaboration. So where my team and the boomers used to say, well, only work happens when you're in person. And the Gen Zs are like, absolutely not. I game with my best friend who lives sort of halfway around the world every night, and we're thick as thieves. We're so tightly bound. And I just think each generation has this opportunity to teach something. to the generation above, just like they have the opportunity to learn from us. And so I am much more comfortable talking about the work-life integration in my messy life because the millennials in my life and because the Gen Zs in my life have given me the language for that and have also demanded it of me in terms of seeing my full humanity and wanting to connect with me that way.
Leanne ElliottNow, if you're sitting there thinking, this is all well and good for a Fortune 500 company, but I've got 25 people and no budget— well, Amy's got you covered. She's about to share exactly how to have those crucial conversations that most leaders avoid, including the fact that she still scripts and practices difficult conversations out loud. Plus, she'll explain why not having hard conversations is actually a form of disrespect to your team. And she talks about a framework called Content Pattern Relationship that will change how you handle performance issues. This is the practical stuff that works, whether you have 5 employees or 5,000.
Al ElliottI can imagine someone perhaps sitting there going, I've— listening to this going, I've got 75 people. I don't have an Amy in my organisation. It's all me. What Amy is telling me to do now, I've already got enough on my plate. How am I supposed to start doing all the things you've just told me I should start doing?
Amy BouqueI think the first one is you're not alone, right? Look around, do a quick stakeholder assessment, and consider who are your connectors, right? Who are the leaders that report to you who are good at staying connected to people? I believe strongly, what does James Clear say? You don't rise to the level of your your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. And having systems, I've probably just screwed that up and said it completely backwards, but the whole idea of your systems, right? Build in the routines, set the practices, and go out. You might look for the next 3 months and go, I don't have time for that. Okay. But then ask yourself, how are you staying connected with? Do you have quarterly All team hands-on? Do you have social connections? Do you have skip-level meetings? And you might look and interrogate your schedule and go, I don't have time for that right now. Maybe not. That's okay. I don't have time for the next 30 or 60 days, but then I look out 60, 90 days and I start to build the systems. And you set the prompts and you put it as an automatic reminder, right? Automate as much as you can about those things so that every Friday I have a reminder on my calendar at 7:30 that says, Express gratitude every Friday morning. And it's a 30-minute block on my schedule. And I go back through the week and I look at who has made an outsized commitment in my week. Who have I seen go above and beyond in a project or process? I call them, I send them a note, I drop 'em a handwritten card, fill in the blank. But I want— I make sure that I take that time every week. And then I have my regular team meetings and my skip-level meetings and my all-team calls. And they're just the practices I build, we practice. Invest in your people that same way. You're doing it with your clients, you're doing it with your shareholders, do it with your people.
Al ElliottJust really quickly, you said skip-level meeting. I've never heard that before.
Amy BouqueOh sure, it's just a simple term. If you can imagine like in an organizational structure, if Sally reported to me and then Sally has 5 people, how often are you connecting with those 5 people below Sally? So you're probably talking to Sally on a regular basis, but how well are you spending time deeper in the organization? And so if you talk about your 75 people, all 75 don't report directly to you. You probably have 5 or 7 to whom are leading those business lines or leading those functional capabilities. But how often are you in spaces with them? Are you going to their team meetings? Are you inviting them in for a connected lunch, a chance to celebrate, and just making sure those connections go beyond just your You have alluded to, and actually specifically said a few times, you've had to have some difficult conversations over your career.
Al ElliottHave you got any kind of like guidelines for someone who might have to have a difficult conversation with one of their employees coming up?
Amy BouqueI have borne witness to some of the most extraordinarily well-delivered difficult conversations. And I've also borne witness or delivered myself some incredibly poor conversations. And what I've seen in the difference is it comes down to the preparation. And I'm not above saying, Al, that there are times I've scripted difficult conversations. I've practiced them out loud. I still sometimes will script a conversation if there's a high stakes, right? When emotions are high and there's a difference of opinion and there's high stakes is the definition of crucial conversation. When I know that I'm potentially gonna get dysregulated because I'm nervous going into the conversation, Then I'm practicing and I am also breathing. The number of times I'm working with leaders and saying, okay, before we get on that call, I want you to do some diaphragmatic breathing with me. Like we're gonna square breathe in for 4, hold for 4, out for 4, hold for 4. And I have them to do it 2 or 3 times so I can see them regulate their system better because I've seen the worst. I've seen crying, I've seen speed rushing through conversations. I've seen poor language choices, and that leaves such a scar on the individual to whom they're working with. And I know I've left scars because of my mismanagement and my mispreparation that I work really hard now to continue to have the hard conversations, but to do the work to prepare, to practice, and deliver at my best.
Al ElliottI think one of the biggest concerns, I think, for someone who's perhaps not an experienced manager or leader is that if they have these difficult conversations, they're not going to be liked. Is that legitimate?
Amy BouqueNo. In fact, I think it's the opposite. When you don't have the hard conversation, when you don't help a person understand why something that it's doing is important, I think you're demonstrating, in my opinion, I think people would not necessarily have the right language for it, but there's a level of disrespect to the person. I think Adam Grant says, I care so much about you, I'm going to set this high expectation for you. And I believe that's true in these tough conversations. I care so much about you. I want you to be successful. I need you to be successful. I wanna sit and talk you through what I'm observing, right? Again, on the Crucial Conversation Principles, they call it filling the pool of shared meaning. So, Al, if it was you and me and I was giving you some feedback about something, I'd say, hey, Al, I'd love to sit down and talk to you for a couple minutes. Is now a good time? I, you know, there's some, a couple things I've been observing and ladder of inference, right? These are the facts and this is the story I'm telling myself. I have observed these things, L, and here's the story I'm telling myself about those things, about those observations. Can you tell me a little bit about, from your perspective, what I'm missing or what I don't understand? And then you would tell me your side. And then I would say, well, here's why X is important. And I need you to know that this is really vital to our business's success. Can we talk through how we can resolve those so they don't get in the way in the future? Whether or not it's, fill in the blank, if it's technical skills or soft skills, let's talk about it. I want you to, I need you to be successful. You're a vital part of my team and I care so much about you. I wanna have this conversation.
Al ElliottWere you using that kind of technique when you were having these, what sounds frankly terrifying conversation with people where you should have been armed or you had armed guards? Was that the kind of conversations you were having?
Amy BouqueSometimes, but they, you know, I didn't have that language back then, but sometimes it was, hey, this person actually has a mental health challenge, or they actually have an addiction. And so I would work with the union and find them inpatient support, you know, in-hospital support, or we would get third-party support in such a way that the person could have. So humanity looked different. It wasn't— sometimes I would have the like, hey, I really care about you, We really care about you, or your leader really cares about you. Back then, I didn't have the role or the framework with the union-management relationship to be able to catch it upstream, right? To catch it early. Because I think the earlier detection, you can avoid so many of these misalignments or misunderstandings.
Al ElliottI feel like that moment there has defined a lot of the way that you think about how leaders show up. So can you tell me what else do you think great leaders do that differentiates them from people who aren't so great?
Amy BouqueIt's a terrific question. You hear leaders all the time, they'll say things like, people are our greatest assets, and then they don't invest in them. And they treat that more like lip service instead of really meaning it. Because what it really means when you say people are your greatest assets is one, you treat them with honesty, you treat them with integrity. Even when you don't know answers, you give them, you know, you give them as much as you know. And when you do know the answer, you tell them as soon as it's appropriate that you tell them. And you care about them in every dimension possible. Whether or not you have 10 employees, or in our case, we have over 5,000. I, you know, my commitment to my cultural commitment to my CEO and to my team is that we're inspiring our leaders every month to make those personal connections, to demonstrate care, to see the humanity in each other, to live into our noble purpose, which is, you know, the nobility of work and how it changes lives, but through our daily commitment to each other.
Al ElliottI feel like there's so much that our listeners need to learn from both what you've learned in your experience and also the stuff that larger companies do. Most of our listeners have small businesses, up to 250 people. What lessons could they learn from the larger organizations you've been exposed to?
Amy BouqueWhen I think about how to scale our efforts, I would start with the sort of the early framework you and I talked about before around practices and really getting clear on what your operating system, what your practices are, and setting them with a level of intentionality so that somebody on your team is always ensuring that the type of rituals that you're looking for, whether or not they're huddles, recognition, celebrations, business reviews, that those rituals are put in place because this company operates sort of with those rituals at scale in terms of what we do at the very enterprise level down to what we expect sort of at the team-based and individual level. Hire slowly, invest early. In a small business, every hire is critical. How you onboard them matters. You know, that when a person first starts, right, you think about these big milestone moments. You and I talked about milestone moments for me and sort of in the middle of my career, but that welcoming in and how you onboard and assimilate someone is vital, making sure they understand mission and priorities, but even more critical that you're choosing someone who can match the organization. I was on a call with a girlfriend over the weekend telling me about her small business, And how she, you know, she was hired, she's the, like, in the number 2 role of the small organization, and they were hiring somebody who was gonna challenge her. She's not very good about sort of living within the routines and honoring the requirements of an organization. She's like, so they're bringing in this practice lead who's going to hold me accountable. And, but she talked about the fact that she admires this woman and she's really looking forward to working with her because she's gonna teach her something new. And so making sure you're bringing people in who have complementary skills, that you're hiring with a level of intention. And the flip side of that is if it's not working out, don't wait. The thing that I've learned over the 30 years is your team knows who's not carrying their weight, and that frustration can denigrate their work spirit. And everyone can have a season, right? Where a really great worker has a season to which the team lifts them up and cares for them through. But if you've got somebody who's not carrying their weight and they're not doing the work to be able to carry the weight, meaning they're learning and growing into the role, then you need to have those crucial conversations. And Crucial Conversations is one of my favorite books, and they teach a a framework called Content, Pattern, Relationship. And over years of having to work leaders through caring for teams and exiting lower performers is I realize oftentimes leaders are coming to me at a relationship moment. They're ready to say, hey Amy, I'd like to exit Sally. Like, okay, tell me what the process you've been on through from here to now. And they often tell me they've had content conversations, Well, I told Sally that she was late 3 weeks ago and I told her she was late 5 days ago. Like, okay, well, did you have a pattern conversation? Meaning that, hey Sally, I've noticed that you were late these 3 times and this is why being on time is important. And here's what happens when you're not on time. And then working with her to figure out what it's gonna take for her to be on time. And then having a relationship conversation, which is, hey Sally, continue to notice this pattern is persisting and we need to address this pattern. Because now I'm concerned about your ability to do this role. And if we don't resolve that, we're gonna be at risk for this not being a sustainable relationship. And instead, what I have leaders coming to me is saying, I've had it. I'm done with Sally. She's been late 15 times. And Sally's not aware. She doesn't know. And leaders taking the time to have those pattern and relationship conversations in the right sequencing order, content, pattern, relationship, Sort of sets the tone so that there's clarity, there's certainty around what good looks like and why it matters, and then helping that person sort of resolve whatever's getting in the way of that success or self-selecting out because they aren't able to.
Leanne ElliottAmy has a great sense of humor, which I think is probably mandatory for someone who's spent as long in HR as she has. So, before we ended the interview, she wanted to share a few stories that perfectly capture the absurd reality of HR leadership. She gave Al 3 possible scenarios and asked him to guess which 2 had happened to Amy and which one had not.
Amy BouqueIn my life, I've had to do a lot of really challenging investigations. I'm going to give you 3 investigative stories, and I'm going to ask you which 2 are true and which one I did not investigate. So, 3 stories. I investigated 2 of these 3 stories. One is a manufacturing location, off-shift supervisors. have Barbies, naked Barbies, in compromising positions that they've left throughout the plant. The second is a mysterious third-shift defecator who chooses to, feet from the bathroom, leave their evidence on a regular basis in the manufacturing floor. And the third is a group of senior leaders who go to an offsite retreat in order to bond together, But, and decide collectively sober that part of their bonding should be to strip themselves naked of any clothes and stand on a table. 2 of these I investigated, one I did not. Which one did I not investigate?
Al ElliottI wanna say the phantom shitter. I wanna say that's something that you've not— I just can't see you being involved in something like that.
Amy BouqueIn fact, I did investigate the phantom pooper. And But the story I did not investigate is the leadership team who were sort of fancying themselves naked and stood on a table. However, I was at a dinner with a CHRO the other night who said that she did, and I was stunned. I'm like, wait, wait, what? Leaders got together and sober thought it would be a good idea to strip themselves naked and stand on a table as part of a bonding experience? She's like, yep. I'm like, did it work? Are they bonded? She said, well, they all bonded over the fact they got fired. So maybe.
Al ElliottIt's the standing on the table that I just think is just so specific. And also just the getting up and getting down off the table has got opportunity to expose a little more than you expected. Yeah. You probably don't want to think about that too much, do you? Amy, I think before you go throw up, I have absolutely loved our time with you. I can't believe it's flown by. If people want to learn more about you, and I'm sure they do, is there somewhere they can go? Do you do anything online? Do you blog online? Are you on LinkedIn?
Amy BouqueI don't yet. My schedule right now is just unreasonably busy, but I'm looking forward to that next chapter. But right now you can find me on LinkedIn. I'd love to stay connected with you. You can send me LinkedIn messages if you have any questions or need any support on something. It is my privilege to have been with you. I have loved every moment of this time together.
Leanne ElliottThat was the incredible Amy Bouque, and I think there are 3 key takeaways here for any business leader. Connection beats command. Amy learned the hard way that moving fast and making 100 decisions a day meant nothing if her team didn't want to work for her. Slow down, invest in relationships, and yes, it matters if they like you. 2, embrace the messy middle. Yes, sometimes you work Sundays. No, you're not comfortable with someone working 20 hours for 40 hours pay. It's okay to admit the complex reality instead of pretending And number 3, have the conversation. Script it, practice it, breathe through it, but have it. Not having difficult conversations isn't a kindness, it's disrespectful. Your team knows who's not pulling their weight.
Al ElliottAmy's confessions remind us that even C-suite executives are learning as they go. The difference is Amy is brave enough to admit it.
Leanne ElliottFind Amy on LinkedIn. She'd absolutely love to chat to you. to connect. And remember, we all deserve leaders who see our humanity, even when they're having to make the hard decisions.
Al ElliottEven if those decisions involve investigating naked Barbies.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies, and Work. See you next week.