Episode 282 · 10 March 2026 · 55:24
No Tech Bros Allowed, The Death of Coworking and Managing Zero Ambition. PLUS! Can we really multitask?
No Tech Bros Allowed, The Death of Coworking and Managing Zero Ambition. PLUS! Can we really multitask?
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Brand Well-being: The New Competitive Advantage?
news roundup#wellbeing#employee-wellness#competitive-advantage#brand
The Death of Coworking and the Rise of Proworking
news roundup#coworking#proworking#office-space#future-of-work
The Silicon Valley Anti-Tech-Bro Shift
news roundup#silicon-valley#tech-bros#culture-shift#tech-industry
Truth or Lie: Can Some People Genuinely Multitask?
truth or lie#multitasking#productivity#cognitive-science#truth-or-lie
Show notes
No Tech Bros Allowed, The Death of Coworking and Managing Zero Ambition. PLUS! Can We Really Multitask?
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why "Brand Well-being" is being sold as the secret to a 47% ROI, why a Silicon Valley startup is banning tech bros in favour of over-50s, and why the coworking dream is supposedly being replaced by the "proworking" revolution. Plus, in Truth or Lie: can some people genuinely multitask? And in the Workplace Surgery: is it a problem if your top performer has zero ambition?
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Brand Well-being: The Competitive Advantage Leanne introduces "Brand Well-being" — the idea that a brand's long-term success depends on the health of three groups: employees, internal culture, and customers. The research claims employer well-being programmes deliver an average ROI of 47%, and the Work Wellbeing 100 is outperforming the market. Al is... sceptical. But Leanne argues the point stands: this shouldn't be an optional extra. Source →
2. The Death of Coworking & The Rise of "Proworking" Is the "Bromad" era over? Al explores why serious professionals are quietly leaving open-plan coworking spaces. The article argues home is now the default, so offices must offer something better: quiet, privacy, and "proworking" spaces with a door that actually shuts. Leanne's verdict? She's been renting private rooms in coworking spaces since before COVID — this ain't new. Source →
3. The Silicon Valley "Anti-Tech-Bro" Shift Startup Snowcap Compute is flipping the script by hiring a team with an average age of over 50. In a hardware industry where one mistake costs nine months of progress, CEO Mike Lafferty argues that "veteran" scepticism beats "youthful" trust in models. Leanne explores the research on older workers — including standout behaviours like organisational citizenship — while flagging the potential legal wrinkles. Source →
🧠 Truth or Lie: "Can Some People Genuinely Multitask?"
Leanne puts the "supertasker" under the microscope. While around 2.5% of the population might handle heavy cognitive loads more efficiently, for the other 97.5% of us, multitasking is just expensive "task switching." She walks through the research — from psychological refractory periods to brain-imaging studies — and explains why AI isn't making us better at juggling; it's just taking some of the balls out of the air for us.
Verdict: True — but only for 2.5% of us. Chances are, you're not one of them.
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Zero ambition: "Is it a problem if a top performer just wants to do their job and go home?"
- Hard conversations: How do HR pros and managers stay neutral when things get emotional?
- Podcast ROI: Is starting a business podcast in 2026 a smart growth strategy or a vanity project?
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottComing up this week in work.
Leanne ElliottA Silicon Valley startup is only hiring people over 50. No tech bros allowed. The CEO says younger engineers trust the models, but veterans know when they'll break. So in an industry obsessed with youth and speed, could deep experience actually be the competitive advantage?
Al ElliottAnd is coworking actually dead? A recent article I read suggests it's certainly on the way out, and a brand new concept looks set to replace it. Think of it as hybrid hybrid. Don't worry, I'll explain what I mean shortly.
Leanne ElliottAnd in Truth or Lie, can some people genuinely multitask? It feels like we're all doing 5 things at once at the minute, especially with AI apparently handling half of our workload. But does the brain actually work that way? Can we multitask?
Al ElliottAnd in the Workplace Surgery, is it a problem if someone does great work but has zero ambition to progress? These people are reliable, low drama, just get on with the job and then switch off and go home. So how do you view someone like that as a leader?
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner. I'm here to ask the questions you might be afraid to. Thank you, Natalie, for that line.
Leanne ElliottAnd my name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist, and I'm here to answer them. And together we help you simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottAnd if you're regular listeners, you'll know when We'll be right back after a quick word from our sponsors.
Leanne ElliottMeow!
Al ElliottWait, you all right?
Leanne ElliottThat's music when you go into the sponsors bit.
Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottMeow!
Al ElliottWell, let's see if you're right. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot. Because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that as much as we did.
Leanne ElliottI very much enjoyed it.
Al ElliottWhat's funny is that if these people are— people come, I might be listening to this episode in a year's time and it'll be a different ad for each month. This is, this is, this is insider information, but it runs the same ad for a month and then we change it and we don't know when we're recording what ad's going on there. Do you remember a couple of weeks back? I think, I think it was February ads, our— I recorded it and it said something like, now after those 2 idiots have stopped speaking, now we're gonna go— Yes.
Leanne ElliottAnd on one episode we had 2 guests on.
Al ElliottI know. And when I listened back to it, it was like, okay. Oh my God. Anyway, but you knew what I meant. You know what we mean? Yeah. Anyway, so what have you— Leanne, what have you been doing this week?
Leanne ElliottThe Paralympics started out on Friday. I feel like my Olympic world is back. I missed it for those like 10 days. We didn't have any. I don't know what we're gonna do for the next 4 years. But yeah, the Paralympics started on Friday. And you know how we were saying that like the Winter Olympics is just really unhinged and really dangerous and people are throwing themselves down mountains?
Al ElliottTry doing it without legs.
Leanne ElliottChild's play. That was child's play. I was watching and honestly, I go, what the— about every 3 minutes when I'm watching the Paralympics, because there's things that blow my mind, and I won't go into all of them because we simply don't have the time. But one of them, so down the downhill skiing, we get all the slaloms and the Super G and the slalom, the Grand Slalom, the Great Slalom, all that kind of stuff.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottPeople who have visual impairments, so they can't see, so they have a guide in front of them who is talking to them through a headset, telling them what's coming up.
Al ElliottOh my God.
Leanne ElliottSo they're throwing themselves down a mountain up to 100 kilometres an hour. They can't see.
Al ElliottI'm slightly disappointed they don't have guide dogs on skis.
Leanne ElliottWell, they wouldn't be fast enough, Al. They wouldn't be fast enough.
Al ElliottSimply wouldn't be fast enough.
Leanne ElliottNo, you just, you wouldn't get it past the animal ethics committee. But then it's like, then I'm watching the snowboarding. I'm like, oh, this is very, you know, cool, isn't it? And they're like, oh yeah, of course there's, I'm making these names up because I can't remember. There's Josh Ainsworth. Yeah, lost both of his legs in a shark attack. I'm sorry, what?
Al ElliottWould you not think that if you, if you've been attacked by a shark, you go, well, the last thing I'm gonna do is put myself in another dangerous situation?
Leanne ElliottBut that's the thing. That's the thing. There are so many examples. There was one guy who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at 30, given 3 years to live. He's now just competing in his first Paralympics at the age of 37.
Al ElliottWow.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And there was another guy who was an Olympic skier, regular Olympics, had a horrible accident, broke his leg, had to have his entire knee replaced and has now just represented Italy in his first Winter Paralympics and won gold.
Al ElliottI suppose I can see why you would have Paralympics, um, as like a natural follow-on from when you have your Winter Olympics and you crash. Then it's just like, it's like that next step, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottSo, uh, I'm sure it's not one you'd voluntarily make, but yes, it's making the most of it. But it just, it's unbelievable the level of bravery and strength and just fuck it, these people have. There's no other way to say it. Like, they are extraordinary, extraordinary. It makes me sad actually that I'm not seeing as much about the Paralympics in the news because it is next level good.
Al ElliottTalking of news, it is time for— how's that for a segue, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottI've got something else for you before we dive into that.
Al ElliottOkay, what, what, what?
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure we've got the time for this either, but you know how—
Al ElliottI'll edit it out, don't worry.
Leanne ElliottYou know how I really enjoy I love them. Equally, I appreciate why some people would find them annoying. And I've always been very, you know, team Gen Z until I saw this on Instagram.
Al ElliottUh-oh.
Leanne ElliottI want your thoughts on it, Al.
Al ElliottOkay, so—
Leanne ElliottYou read it? Oh wait, it's gone. I'm gonna play it to you and see if you can hear it. Okay?
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottGo. Ready?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottWhat year does someone have to be born in to be considered old?
Al Elliott1990. 1990. Like 2000. 1995.
Leanne Elliott2002. Late 1900s is like, it's like old. Uh, like 2005. 1992.
Al ElliottPlease stop. Please stop.
Leanne ElliottLate 1900s?
Al ElliottGet in the bin, you wanker.
Leanne ElliottDon't say 1900s. Like, we said 1900s meaning like, yeah, 1900 to 1909.
Al ElliottOh man. So I was born in 1977. So these people must think that they're basically—
Leanne ElliottThey can't even think that far back. They could barely pluck a number out of the '80s, let alone the '70s.
Al ElliottWell, pluck you, Gen Z. Not impressed by that at all. If anyone's listening, or whether you are listening and you're slightly on the more mature side like I am, then let's get together and have a nice cup of tea and And chat about how bad the jokes are.
Leanne ElliottAbout the late 1900s.
Al ElliottAbout the late 1900s. And we talked last week about Xennials or Xennials. We're not quite sure which.
Leanne ElliottIt better be Xennials, I swear.
Al ElliottIf you haven't, if you haven't listened to last week's Tuesday, go back and listen because it's like sort of 85% rubbish and 15% pretty good. Anyway, anyway, I think it's time for your favourite time of the week.
Leanne ElliottIt's about time, isn't it?
Al ElliottIt's about time. It's time for your favourite time of the week. It's time for the World Famous— no, it's not. It's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottIt is. I'll cue that jingle. Cue the jingle.
Al ElliottMeanwhile, joining us Get your notes together and tell us what you've been looking into this week.
Leanne ElliottI have a new word.
Al ElliottYou, as you always do.
Leanne ElliottI, do you know what? I went through a long stretch where I couldn't find a new word, but there just seems to be a lot popping up. I guess people, you know, winter, people have more time on their hands, don't they? So they start making up words.
Al ElliottMaybe the word factory is— there's a word— is there a word factory?
Leanne ElliottSure.
Al ElliottYeah, sure. Anyway, carry on.
Leanne ElliottBrand wellbeing. Thoughts?
Al ElliottUm, that sounds a bit stupid. That sounds like you've taken 2 words, you've gone wellbeing, and we've gone, oh, we'll call it— at least like with greenwashing and well-washing and stuff and whatever you call it, at least that's like a bit of a clever word. This is just someone who's basically gone, uh, wellbeing, uh, brand in front. So I, I don't, I don't even understand why we're talking about it.
Leanne ElliottWell, let me tell you why. So this comes from an article from Sean Looney, excellent surname, in Fast Company.
Al ElliottI love our surnames.
Leanne ElliottAnd the idea is Basically, a brand's long-term success depends on the overall well-being of 3 groups: its employees, its internal culture, and its customers.
Al ElliottWow, groundbreaking.
Leanne ElliottSo a brand isn't just its logo or its products. It's an ecosystem, Al, made up of people and relationships and shared values. And if one part of that ecosystem isn't healthy, the whole thing weakens.
Al ElliottCan I ask you a quick question?
Leanne ElliottSure.
Al ElliottIs Sean Looney by any chance in— is he a brand strategist? I'd imagine he would be.
Leanne ElliottI think he is in content creation, yes.
Al ElliottOkay, Sean, I'm sorry. I love your surname. Hate this article. Wow.
Leanne ElliottOkay. What else we got?
Al ElliottWhat else?
Leanne ElliottWhat are you hating about it?
Al ElliottBecause it just sounds like a load of bollocks.
Leanne ElliottAs in it's obvious, or as in—
Al ElliottAs in like brand, Well, brand is the same as organisation. It's just, it's like, yeah.
Leanne ElliottIndeed.
Al ElliottI don't, I'm not saying, Sean, I'm sorry, I love you, dude, but this is, this, this is not news to me.
Leanne ElliottWell, it's not news to you, but it might be news to people listening, Al.
Al ElliottI look forward to your letters.
Leanne ElliottSo to go through it briefly, because I've lost Al already, there's 3 dimensions to brand wellbeing. Employee wellbeing, you all know what that is. Culture wellbeing, whatever that is. It's about meaning and connection, apparently. And consumer well-being. So how a brand shows up in people's lives, that's something that Sonia Thompson would have a lot to say about. Yes, that's true, actually. Um, she has a brilliant podcast all around inclusion marketing, so definitely check that out. Um, I— do you want me to say more on this, or are we just gonna put it, put it in the no pile, Al?
Al ElliottNo, no, no, because people may not share my grumpy— maybe I just woke up a bit grumpy.
Leanne ElliottOkay, well, basically Sean makes the point that this isn't just a nice-to-have. There is a business case behind it. For example, the article cites some research commissioned by the insurer Cigna. We used to be with Cigna.
Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottVery good, very expensive.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut they found employer wellbeing programmes deliver an average return of investment of about 47%, which means roughly $1.47 return for every dollar invested. I'm not gonna lie, that's high compared to any other research I've seen, but let's just assume It's backed on based on fair data. It also references analysis from WellHub when 99% of HR leaders report that wellbeing programs improve productivity. I'm not sure I've met many HR leaders that would say that, but okay. And the broader meta-analysis apparently has found reductions in absenteeism and healthcare costs, sometimes with ROI approaching 140%. Again, these are, these are figures I've never seen in any research before.
Al ElliottOkay, um, it's looking more and more loony by the minute. Yeah, um, I think even you, you're starting to lose a bit of luster on this. It's taken the shine off a little bit on this, hasn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, do you know what I think? What, what I, what I enjoyed about this article is it's kind of making a point that well-being isn't just something that's like a nice-to-have fruit in the baked Bake room? Break room type thing. It is actually more about the workplaces we're designing, the values and behaviours we're fostering, and our customers are part of that, that ecosystem as well. So I enjoy that wellbeing is being talked about beyond the individual and how that actually, as we move forward, and we know this from all the research we've seen around Gen Z and millennials as well, actually, that wellbeing is taken really seriously in terms of employer brand.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd we like it. The article does mention some companies experimenting with this: L'Oréal, the NBA, BlackRock, Morgan Stanley, Volvo. Basically, the idea is the most effective companies don't treat wellbeing as a marketing campaign. They integrate it into how the organisation actually works. And that is what I'm here for, Al.
Al ElliottYes, yes.
Leanne ElliottNot sure about those data points. Check, check those. Yeah, dig deeper into those. I'm, I'm sceptical as to As to that and would— yeah. Anyway, what have you seen this week, Al?
Al ElliottWell, I look forward to you crapping on my article from a great height. So my article is all about coworking and it's actually a couple of months old, but I went back to it and I read it again. Just, I mean, I'm sure everyone knows what coworking is. By the way, if you haven't seen the Apple WeWork series, it is really good. It doesn't come off very, very well. Not Jared, I can't remember his surname there. Um, the guy who started it doesn't come off very well, but it is a great, great drama. Uh, but coworking traditionally was you'd go somewhere and you'd sit and you'd work. You'd be like a, you know, a solopreneur or something and you just work in a big room. A few years back, we were in Bali, weren't we? Don't go to Bali.
Leanne ElliottWe were those people.
Al ElliottYeah. And we went to a coworking space and oh my God, it was full of— now I can't use that word on this pod, but I think people who are British and Australian—
Leanne ElliottPeople with lots of charisma, uniqueness, nerve.
Al ElliottWe've just lost a few, few listeners. So sorry if that was offensive.
Leanne ElliottYou've watched RuPaul. Come on now.
Al ElliottNo, I have. I know, no, no, I understand. I understand. It's just perfect. Basically, coworking started off as like people going there to work in a communal space, ended up just full of just posers. They're called bromads abroad. They're sort of like digital nomads, but they're bros and they've got man buns and like t-shirts. Yeah. And they walk around with one nipple hanging out and, you know, Oh. Yeah, it's just horrible stuff, horrible stuff. And they, and they have these like really noisy Skype calls going, yeah, well, I'm Series A, yes, Series A investment, very interested. And then looking around the room as if to go, did people hear me? I think people know that I'm important enough. Anyway, so there's that side of it, and that's where coworking seems to have gone. Something has shifted though, and basically this article in Forbes, it's— and the link is in the show notes, obviously— basically arguing that Professionals who were coworkers' biggest customers, like lawyers or finance teams, mortgage consultants, that sort of thing, they're quietly leaving. Not because necessarily they hated it, even though if they went to Bali, they would. It's because their work has outgrown it. The article gives this example of this law firm that spent 2 years at a well-known coworking brand and then started losing clients. And it was nothing to do with their work. It's just because on every Zoom call there's background noise and some fella walking past in shorts and flip-flops.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottWith a man bun. So people stopped taking them seriously, and that is obviously a real, real problem. And then COVID obviously happened. Now what happened is it was quite, you know, we got used to working on our own at home. And so therefore coworking wasn't even a possibility for 2 or 3 years. And so people got used to this idea of being quiet.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottAnd so now this article says there's a new thing called proworking. See what they've done there. Pro working, which is for professionals who— and basically you rent out a private room in a coworking space so you can sit in your office and do your quiet work, and then you can open the door and you're back into like the, the coworking stuff. So you get the best of both worlds. Because if you're working at home— hang on, Le, you've got questions?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottGo ahead.
Leanne ElliottI've been to many coworking spaces well before COVID that had private rooms that you could rent.
Al ElliottAh yeah, but the person who's written this article has got one of these coworking things, so he's trying to say it's a brand new thing. I think him and Sean—
Leanne ElliottOh, this is the owner of said coworking space? Yeah, it's called Flex something.
Al ElliottI can't remember exactly what it is. I'll leave a link in the article. Uh, so, um, basically this is going in the same pile as your Sean Looney.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it ain't new. You can't fool us.
Al ElliottNo, no, absolutely. So the idea is you get a private space, but then you can open the door and you're in coworking. Not brand new, but, um, and now I'm saying it out loud, I realise this isn't my strongest piece of advice.
Leanne ElliottI think we've both fallen into that trap this week, Al. I think we both have. Um, yeah, sometimes things look good, and when you visit them again 3 days later, they just don't stand up the way you expected.
Al ElliottThey don't. So—
Leanne ElliottOne thing I would say about coworking spaces, I, I am quite, I am quite introverted, so I do enjoy quiet, but then I've also worked in very busy places. So I'm very good at blocking out the noise. What I really liked about coworking spaces, the really good ones, the one in Cambodia. Do you remember the one in Cambodia?
Al ElliottOh yeah, that was brilliant.
Leanne ElliottSo good. The most amazing coffee. Every desk had plugs. Yep. Blows my mind when you go to a coworking space and not everywhere has a plug.
Al ElliottYep.
Leanne ElliottWhat? Why?
Al ElliottWhy?
Leanne ElliottWhy? It's just a cafe.
Al ElliottWhat do you think we came here for?
Leanne ElliottExactly. Oh, that was good. Anyway, what I enjoyed about it— sorry, reminiscing. I was back in Cambodia. What I enjoyed about coworking spaces is the body doubling.
Al ElliottWhat's that?
Leanne ElliottHave you heard about this?
Al ElliottNo.
Leanne ElliottSo it's typically a technique that's recommended for people who are neurodiverse and can struggle to focus on a task independently at times or struggle to get started. Whereas body doubling is basically like, I'll go with you to a coworking space because I have to do my tax return that I've been putting off.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottBut that's going to be the task I do as I sit next to you. And we work together, and that presence of just having another body there kind of motivates you to to get a task done. So I used to find it quite motivating for that because if I started to get a bit distracted, I'd look around and people watching is always nice as well. And then you see somebody like really hustling, and you'd be like, "I should probably do that." Anyway, when should we go to Cambodia?
Al ElliottOh, Cambodia! If if you're listening, you've not been to Cambodia. It is amazing. We much preferred it over Thailand. Sorry, over Vietnam. Don't know about. necessarily over Thailand.
Leanne ElliottOh, Thailand's pretty great.
Al ElliottBut Cambodia, yeah, we went to Siem Reap, which is famous for all the monuments and the temples, but really also a really cool place. And it feels like Manchester in that London is Phnom Penh, really busy. Siem Reap was a bit more relaxed.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and it was quite hipster-ish, but not annoying in your face Yeah. And lots of entrepreneurial things happen there.
Al ElliottSo yeah. Yeah. Very cool. And lovely, lovely people. We have this kind of theory that, that if you've had in the past, you've had quite a recent tough time, then, then generally the people are going to be very, very nice to you. We found that in the Balkans as well.
Leanne ElliottHigh on hope, aren't they?
Al ElliottHigh on hope.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThat should be the name of your book or your first single. Okay, Lee, what else have you seen, my love?
Leanne ElliottI'm nervous about how this is going to go down. I don't know. Let's Let's find out. So this headline caught my attention because it basically said tech bros need not apply.
Al ElliottI love this.
Leanne ElliottThis is all about a Silicon Valley startup that's hiring only people over 50. So it's called SnowCap Compute. It's based in Palo Alto, if you're interested, and they are building superconducting computing platform.
Al ElliottOh yeah.
Leanne ElliottI don't know what that is, but it sounds important.
Al ElliottIt's a platform that conducts Superconducting computing.
Leanne ElliottYeah, lovely.
Al ElliottOh, you're so stupid.
Leanne ElliottIt isn't the technology I'm interested in though, Al. You won't be surprised to hear the company has 18 employees now and the average age is over 50. So really opposite to what the classic startup stereotype is where you kind of got, got your bros in. The CEO is a guy called Mike Lafferty. He told the Wall Street Journal that this is completely intentional. His view is that the kind of hardware engineering they're doing requires people who have, in his words, seen and felt enough pain over their careers to understand what can actually go wrong. Because he says, unlike software startups where you can kind of test ideas quickly, hardware design works very differently. It can take 7, 8, 9 months to get feedback on whether design works, and if you get it wrong Huge amount of time lost, which to a startup can be, can be suicide, can't it?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo Mike says he's deliberately looking for engineers who spent decades in the field, people who've built ships, watched projects fail, and learned the limits of the models engineers use to predict what will happen in the real world. His argument is that younger engineers are often trained to trust those models, whereas veterans are more skeptical because they've seen them break. Interestingly as well, most of the team don't live in Silicon Valley, Al. Only 4 of the engineers work from the Palo Alto office. The rest are spread across the country remotely, and it's working brilliantly.
Al ElliottBecause they're older people who are sensible.
Leanne ElliottAnd they've got families, and they've got homes, and they've got roots somewhere else, but their expertise is needed. So why relocate everyone when you can just do things remotely and come together every few months to work in person because it's necessary? So when Snowcap does hire, Mike Lafti says he's looking for people who have failed before, who understand why they failed and what they learned from it. Yes. He avoids candidates who are either repeating the same mistakes or become paralyzed by failure. Um, Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottWell, that's me. I should go and get a job there. I'm nearly 50. I've failed many, many times, and I've understood— most of the time understood why. Question, is it called Snowcap because it's for people who've got slight gray hair, so it's like a little snowcap Oh, that would be—
Leanne ElliottI think that's probably coincidental. I dunno.
Al ElliottMaybe.
Leanne ElliottI did connect with Mike and see if he wanted to come on the podcast, but I've not heard back yet.
Al ElliottNo, he's, he's too busy building something very, very important that neither of us understand.
Leanne ElliottIndeed.
Al ElliottBut also, you talk about digital bros, maybe the opposite of that is digital pros.
Leanne ElliottOoh, like proworking.
Al ElliottLike proworking. Oh my God. Oh, look, ultimately I love it. I think that, um, There was a company who I'm— a guy who I met a long, long time ago, um, and he was called something like Grey Consulting. And basically he did— he only recruited people who, for sales, who had got grey hair, who were older. Because when you're doing sales of not like selling mobile phones, but selling something quite, quite big, yeah, then it's good to have someone older in the room sitting there. Like, we're buying a house right now. It's a prefab house from Bosnia. The salesperson, probably the same age as me, maybe even older. Yeah, older, you reckon?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd you kind of get this feeling because not only are they great at sales, but also they're not like, hey, come and buy this thing, come on, let's do it now. He's like, okay, all right, take your time, take your time. So I'm a huge fan of that. Sorry, I took this slightly off.
Leanne ElliottNo, I agree, I agree. And I— it is surprising to me, and it's talked about a lot because we are seeing an increasing number of people over 50 not in the workplace, are struggling to get jobs after being laid off. And it's always confused me a little bit why There's this false assumption that once you're kind of 50+, you don't have the same value as somebody under 50, when you've just spent the last 30 years building up experience and knowledge. So I did a little research just to kind of labour this point out. So studies looking at mature workers have consistently found that performance doesn't decline with age in the way that people assume. Task performance and creativity are broadly the same.
Al ElliottNope.
Leanne ElliottAs younger workers. In fact, older employees stand out in some really important behaviours such as organisational citizenship. So that's like helping colleagues, supporting the wider team. Much stronger safety behaviours, isn't, isn't, you know, makes sense. We do get a bit more cautious as we get older. Less likely to engage in counterproductive behaviours like lateness or absenteeism and bring, yeah, experience, professional networks, and accumulated judgment to recognize risks and spot when something doesn't add up. And I think when we think about the cognitive decline that we potentially are seeing with AI, and I'd hate to say it, potentially Gen Z, you've got to wonder if these older workers are going to be even more important.
Al ElliottI think they probably will. This is probably— we probably can't get into this now, but I'd imagine that it would be illegal to say I only recruit people who are over 50, you have to do something.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it would be, it would be unlawful.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo you'd have to demonstrate exactly why somebody over 50, you needed that for the job. More than likely, you couldn't say over 50, but you could specify an amount of experience.
Al Elliott30 years.
Leanne ElliottNo, not necessarily. I mean, possibly, but again, you'd have to really prove why 30 years is a magic number. It'd be more like in-depth experience of all of these things, which just by its nature would take time to accumulate. But that's not to say that somebody who is 25 could have spent 5 years really digging deep into hardware tech, supercomputing, and have the same knowledge level as somebody in their, in their 50s. Of course, they're not going to have the same scenario analysis. You'd have to word it carefully. You'd have to prove it. Otherwise, you could be done for unlawful.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUnlawful hiring, but who checks really? Yeah, not many people. And particularly in this instance where you're actually hiring from a minority group, you know.
Al ElliottOkay, Lee, does that conclude our news roundup?
Leanne ElliottIt does.
Al ElliottThank you so much. And apologies to Sean and, and the guy from the pro working place where we did kind of like shit a little bit on your article.
Leanne ElliottOh, I'm here for the pro working. I enjoy a pro working space. I just question Whether it was new, but I'd love to go. Where, where are his places? Let's go.
Al ElliottUm, I will, I, I will check. I can't imagine there's too many around Mostar in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Leanne ElliottI'm sure he'll fly us out somewhere, wouldn't he?
Al ElliottSurely.
Leanne ElliottGive him a big old shout out. Have we actually given him a shout out? What's the name of the company? We might get some of it for free. Go on.
Al ElliottYes. I've not written that down. Okay, so after the break, we've got the truth or lie. Uh, this is where I ask Leanne a question and I say, I've heard this. Is it true or is it a lie? And Leanne being a psychologist, a, a chartered occupational psychologist no less, she answered the question. So we'll see in a second.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie rock Indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work, and we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such. It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing, but there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. It is time for Truth or Lie. And this is something I am genuinely excited about because I have a feeling that Well, for a number of reasons I'll go into in a second. The one thing we're asking right now is, can some people genuinely multitask? So I, I think just the backstory is that every generation thinks they've mastered multitasking, 'cause I know that my mum used to boast about cooking dinner and helping with homework and also drinking whiskey, um, at the same time. Um, and then there was loads of people, you see lots of people who, um, like on, um, Suits and stuff where they're chatting to someone but also writing an email.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWe've got obviously the AI version where you spin up, you open your laptop, you spin up a few AI agents, you get one to summarize a report, another one to draft a presentation, a third to analyze data, a fourth to, I don't know, create an email. I don't know. It does feel like currently we're doing 5 things at once. And then also we add on top of that Slack messages. Then we've got meetings, we've got everything happening all at the same time. However, I also have a feeling that psychologists have been arguing about multitasking for a very, very long time. Leigh, does multitasking work? Can some people genuinely multitask?
Leanne ElliottYou're right, Al. We do, as psychologists, spend as much time defining what we're talking about as we do studying what we're talking about. So in terms of multitasking, there's 2 ways to look at it really. Either if somebody is multitasking, we're saying they can perform 2 demanding tasks at the same time without getting worse at either of them.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottOr that a person can switch between tasks so quickly it feels simultaneous.
Al ElliottRight. Okay.
Leanne ElliottSo psychologists are basically looking at attention and what it means in terms of mental processes that we decide to focus on and those that we ignore. Attention, I think, can sometimes feel a bit limited. I think we can all feel a bit overstimulated at times. But as you said, there are also lots of examples that we can multitask quite successfully. So we can talk when driving, we can cook while listening to podcasts. So researchers have spent a long time actually trying to test the idea of multitasking, what it is, in controlled environments to understand if that is what we're actually doing. Are we multitasking? Can we be good at it? Or are we just switching tasks faster?
Al ElliottLove it.
Leanne ElliottSo in terms of the case for, yes, we are good at multitasking, there is some evidence that a small number of people may genuinely handle multitasking unusually well. So there is a well-known experiment by some psychologists called Jason Watson and David Strayer back in 2010. They tested basically people's ability to multitask using a driving simulator. So participants sat behind the wheel. And they followed a car on a virtual motorway, and their job was to hit the brake as quickly as possible whenever the car in front of them suddenly slowed down. At the same time, they were solving maths problems and memorising words.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo they're driving, calculating, and remembering information simultaneously. The researchers basically wanted to see, could anyone do both tasks without getting any worse? And the answer was yes, but only 5 out of 200 people managed both tasks without any measurable decline in performance. So about 2.5% of the sample, and the researchers called them supertaskers.
Al ElliottOh, I like that.
Leanne ElliottIt's nice, isn't it?
Al ElliottOut of interest, did they— does the report say anything about sort of whether those people had other attributes like a much higher IQ or they were all skewed younger or No, but some follow-up research a few years later did use fMRI brain scanning to see what was happening. Right. Okay.
Leanne ElliottIn the brains of these supertaskers. So a similar demanding memory task. So people were sat in front of a screen where squares appeared in different positions while letters were spoken through headphones, and participants had to remember what appeared Or what was spoken a few steps earlier. So basically, it had to track 2 streams of information at once, auditory and visual. What the researchers found was that supertaskers showed less activity in regions responsible for attention control, particularly the prefrontal cortex, which basically means their brains appeared to handle heavy cognitive load, a lot going on, much more efficiently. In that there was less activity, their brain wasn't even that bothered about it.
Al ElliottReally?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottOkay. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd then in this research, there was evidence that certain mental abilities affect how well people were able to multitask. And other research has backed this up as well. So another one from 2011 put participants in a flight simulation thing where they had to fly a plane, monitor several systems at once, respond to problems as they appeared. And they found people with With stronger working memory were better at handling several tasks at once, and people with stronger spatial ability, so the ability to picture and track things around us, they were much better at coping with tasks that suddenly became more difficult. So, it seems as though there is a potential genetic component in terms of how our brain is structured and how it works that makes us supertaskers. And there could be a cognitive aspect as well in terms of working memory. And spatial ability. So yeah, some people are naturally better equipped to deal with multitasking.
Al ElliottSo putting that in my nerdy analogy, I'm thinking if I go and buy a laptop that's got 8 gigabytes of RAM and I compare it to a desktop that's got 64 gigabytes of RAM, it's got more working memory and therefore I can do more things at the same time on the desktop than I can on the laptop. Is that right?
Leanne ElliottExactly. Exactly.
Al ElliottSo if anyone's ever, ever seen Leanne's screen and see the 350 tabs, Chrome tabs she's got open, then that would be fine on a computer, on a big old computer. So in order to do that, have the— for the computer to be multitasked, you'd need more memory.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottAnd I would just like to say that currently I only have 18 tabs open, actually.
Al ElliottI get stressed when I get more than 5.
Leanne ElliottYes. So, but it's worth bearing in mind that how rare this is, that only 2.5% of laptops out there are going to have the higher memory capacity.
Al ElliottGot it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLove it.
Leanne ElliottRare resource.
Al ElliottRare. So yes, it's possible, but it seems unlikely at this stage.
Leanne ElliottThat the average person. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And in terms of the case against, there is a large body of research that suggests something different, that actually most people can't truly multitask. And actually what their brain is rapidly doing is switching between tasks, and every time it switches, there's a small cost. So one of the clearest demonstrations of this came from a psychologist called Harold Pashler way back when in the early 1900s— 1992. So in Harold's experiment, participants were asked to respond to 2 simple signals. First, they would hear a tone and press a key, and then a fraction of a second later, a light would appear And they had to press a different key.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottGet it? So they've got 2 different keys. Press one when you hear a sound, one when you see a light.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottPretty simple task. But when the signal appeared very close together, something happened very consistently with participants. The response to the second signal, so to the light signal, slowed down.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo even though the tasks used different senses, one was sound, one was sight, there was a notable, noticeable difference that the brain slowed down when multiple things were happening around us.
Al ElliottAnd that's the switching cost. You're switching between listening to something and looking at something.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's basically our brain has to decide what action to take, and it can only process one decision at a time. So literally, that cost is related to time. The psychologist at the time called it the response selection bottleneck. But I have called it more switching costs in kind of the general Major things.
Al ElliottYeah, I think Cal Newport's book talks all about switching costs called Deep Work, I think it is.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, there's an analogy actually that the researchers use. It's quite nice. They said it was like a single checkout in a shop. Lots of people can line up, but only one can get served at a time.
Al ElliottMakes sense.
Leanne ElliottSo when there's too many people, it's just going to take longer. Makes sense.
Al ElliottIt does. That's a really nice analogy.
Leanne ElliottYeah, lovely. Lovely. Anyway, more recent research, still way back when, Al, in the year 2000, some neuroscience research examined brain imaging studies looking at what happens when people try to perform 2 tasks simultaneously. The evidence suggested that interference often happens because both tasks need to use the same areas of the brain, particularly regions involved with working memory and attention. So again, that prefrontal cortex. When 2 tasks compete for the same neural responses, the same parts of our brain to activate, performance in one or both starts to break down. So again, it's kind of suggesting that we're not actually doing things at the same time. We're trying to task switch. And if the task is too similar and using the same parts of the brain, then it's going to take longer. Another explanation came from researchers in 2002. They built a cognitive model based on the work of air traffic controllers.
Al ElliottOoh.
Leanne ElliottYou need to have really good working memory.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo air traffic control is often held up as a classic example of extreme multitasking. So maybe we have some supertaskers in there. They're controlling planes, they're monitoring weather, They're communicating with pilots and making safety decisions in the moment. Their model suggested something interesting, that experienced operators weren't actually performing multiple complex tasks at the same time. Instead, they became very skilled at inserting small actions into brief moments of slack time. So basically what that means is when one task paused for a minute, Mm-hmm. didn't need their immediate attention, so perhaps waiting for some new information, They would quickly perform a second task before returning back.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottSo they became very good at task switching very efficiently and very quickly. Then we fast forward all the way back in time. Oh no, forward in time, Al, to the present day, almost 2024. A systematic review analysed 159 studies on generative AI and productivity across sectors, including engineering, healthcare, education, and business. With the idea of basically looking, can AI tools significantly help us with productivity? Can it help us become better multitaskers? And the research— researchers basically concluded, yes, AI tools can significantly improve workplace productivity. But the reason isn't that humans have suddenly become better at multitasking because they've got AI to support them. It's when AI is taking over some tasks entirely.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottSo, if we're still having to dip in and out of it, we're still splitting our attention, we're still switching tasks, we're still probably not doing it very effectively. If AI takes it entirely, then yes, it can improve productivity. So, automating repetitive work, analysing large amounts of information quickly, drafting emails, that type of thing. Yes, productivity improves, but not because we juggle more tasks at once, because we have fewer tasks to juggle.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottOurselves. And I think this is where a lot of the implementation of AI in our workplaces isn't quite getting things right, in that it's probably much better to have AI take over one thing entirely than it is to have AI supporting all the things that we're doing. It's not actually helping us multitask in any way. It's just splitting our time even more.
Al ElliottSo verdict time, is it, Leanne? Have you got any other, any other research?
Leanne ElliottNo, time for the verdict. Can some people genuinely multitask? Is it a truth or is Well, it's true. Some people can genuinely multitask. They are called— what are they called again? Supertaskers. And that's about 2.5% of the population.
Al ElliottRight.
Leanne ElliottGood for them. Chances are you're not one of them.
Al ElliottThere's a 97.5% chance that you cannot multitask.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And really what multitasking is, is really just task switching as quickly as possible. It's not true parallel thinking as such. So we're not really multitasking in any way unless you are part of that 2.5%, which, as I said, you probably, you probably aren't.
Al ElliottFabulous. Thank you so much. If you have a question that you want us to put to Leanne or want me to put to Leanne, then check out the show notes. There's a way to get in touch there. We've got a few more. I've got a few more I want to put to you, but I am— but you can jump to the queue if you email us and use the Chicken. Supertasking. Okay, it's time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. I've got 3 questions, Leanne. Question number 1, is it okay for someone to just to do their job well and then go home?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottYes. So I've got a— so this person writes saying, I've got a question about a type of employee. I think a lot of workplaces have this. This person does great work. They're reliable, low drama, get on with the team and just outperform others. But they're very clear about one thing. Work is work. They're not interested in climbing the ladder. They don't want extra responsibility. They have no desire to go above and beyond. They show up, do their job well, then switch off and get on with their outside, outside life. From a leadership perspective, how do you view someone like this? Is it a problem that they've got zero ambition to progress?
Leanne ElliottI don't think it's a problem. I, I, uh, this is a beautiful employee to have in your business. A beautiful employee to have in your business. They're somebody who does great work. They're reliable, they're low drama, they get on with the team, they outperform others. Happy days! What more do you want?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottWell, clearly you want them to be ambitious and you want them to progress or want to progress. And I think the question is why? And I have a feeling it stems from a place where you are very ambitious, you want to progress, and when we come across somebody who is counteracting what those characteristics are that we value, it can be unsettling and it can be annoying and maybe even just seem a bit short-sighted. But really, I think what it's doing is it's questioning their behavior and their values, is questioning your sense of self and your ego.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottAnd that is where you're finding this discomfort, not in the fact they're doing a great job and they don't want to progress, that they're showing you an alternative view that is bringing into question your self-concept. And that's a well-known, documented psychological phenomenon. It's totally normal. It's completely normal. But that's your problem, not theirs.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottIf this person is more than happy, and you need to have these conversations to make sure, because they, you know, you want to make sure that they don't want to progress. Just because they don't shout up about it doesn't mean they don't think about it. So you do need to have these conversations to make sure what you're seeing is a true reflection of what they want. But what a great position to be in. And I'm sure there are so many people listening that go, oh my gosh, what would it be like to not— to just be comfortable and content with what you have?
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottTo just be happy with going to work, doing what you need to do, collecting your paycheck, prioritising your family, getting home, work-life balance. Is that not the dream that we're always really kind of kind of talking about and pushing towards. But it's uncomfortable when we see somebody doing that.
Al ElliottThat is interesting. I never thought of it. See, this is why you're the psychologist. This is why you answer the questions, not me. Anything else to add, or would you like question number 2?
Leanne ElliottI think just to know it's absolutely fine. And maybe do some little reflection as to why this may be bugging you. And my guess would be You're either falling into that trap that many of us do, and that once I achieve this, I'll be happy. Once I get to that level, things will be better. Or your work-life balance is currently, currently off, and you're a bit jelly looking at somebody who's got, got a balance that you think you want. So, do some reflection and figure out what is it that you want, because it sounds like it might be more of what this person has.
Al ElliottMm, exactly. By the way, in case you're not sure, jelly is Leanne's—
Leanne ElliottJealous.
Al ElliottLittle code word for jealous. Excellent. Okay, so question number 2, how do you lead really difficult conversations? I feel like the first half of this was a difficult conversation, Leanne. So this person writes, I'm about to have to have some difficult conversations at work for the first time. If I'm honest, I'm pretty nervous about it. That's very normal. I'm used to the more supportive side of HR, but these conversations are likely to involve a lot of anxiety, frustration, and maybe even tears. I feel confident about the empathy side of things, but I'm worried about staying neutral. professional and not getting pulled in emotionally to the situation. Do you have any advice on how to approach conversations like this? Lee, this person's new to it. Any thoughts?
Leanne ElliottYou're off to a great start if you think you've got the empathy thing nailed. That's what most people struggle with. So if you've got that, you're confident in that a bit, you've kind of got the most important ingredient. What it is now about giving, giving these conversations some structure so you don't get sucked in. You, you know, the emotional labor isn't too hard on you and you get to the outcome that you are required to get to as directed by the people above you. There are lots of different frameworks. One that I really like is one that Hayley Lewis talks about, and I think I've seen Vince Sanderson talk about as well. And there's 6 steps basically. First, prepare. Preparation. If you are giving feedback or having that difficult conversation, it can be really helpful to just kind of write down the key points that you want to make, the order in which that you to make them so you've got something to refer to. So, if you are thrown off track by somebody bursting into tears, you've got something that can kind of anchor you back into the conversation. Second, and this sounds really cheesy, but practice, practice, practice, practice. And in terms of, of people who, you know, before you have this conversation, so practice with your colleague in HR, practice with your partner.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAt home, practise in the mirror, just saying out loud what it is that, that you want to say. Or if you're working with a coach, practise with them, because it is going to really help you to reduce the anxiety on your part, get the feedback out in the style that you're comfortable with, and really hone in on the points that you want to make. Say it out loud, practise. With any feedback, be specific. This goes as well for positive feedback, and in terms Improving recognition. A lot of people will be very vague without giving any specific examples, and that's exactly what you want to do. You want to refer to specific examples, write them down again ahead of the meeting, refer back to them. It helps so much in terms of the person understanding what this feedback is about and also helps you to again get through those nerves. In terms of the next stage, it's really about when you're in that moment, how you respond to it. And one thing that Al and I will always talk about is the use of silence. Silence and having the right space. So somewhere you're not going to be disturbed is a really good start. And in terms of the actual conversation, don't be— feel like you have to fill the gap. If there is a moment where the person hesitates, Or does cry and needs a minute, give them a minute. And you've got the empathy to, to make that something that's well within your, in your reach to do. And finally, with that said, empathy is really important. You know, put yourself in, in their shoes. Think about how you'd feel if somebody more senior was having that conversation with you. How would you feel? What would make a difference? What would make that situation easier? And it's going to be basically All of the above. They're gonna want structure, they're gonna want clarity, they're gonna want empathy, and they're gonna want space to absorb the information that you're giving them.
Al ElliottExcellent advice. I think the only thing I'd throw in there is that having difficult conversations, the more you have, the easier it becomes. Leanne and I met at Samaritans in the UK, which is a listening charity, so listening organization. So people ring up when they're in distress. We did maybe for about 4 or 5 years. I think you might be doing it for longer. The more calls you got, the easier it was to deal with those difficult conversations.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd the key thing there is empathy, not sympathy. It was described in the Samaritan's Training as empathy is imagine someone's down a hole. Sympathy is someone standing at the top and saying, well, that looks rubbish, doesn't it? Empathy is someone getting into the hole and going, well, it's dark down here, isn't it? And that's such a really good way to remember it. Okay, lovely, lovely, lovely. Okay, on to question number 3. Am I naive for thinking about starting a podcast? No, but you haven't put the umlaut over the I of naive, so that disappoints me. Hi, Al and Leanne. I've been thinking about starting a podcast connected to my work, partly to share ideas, partly to meet interesting people, and hopefully to grow awareness of the business. It doesn't say actually whether it's your business or not, but anyway, I'm conscious that everyone seems to have a podcast these days. My question is, can a podcast still be a useful way to grow a business, or has the ship sailed and it's now mostly a passion project? Leanne, thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI think you're the expert on this one.
Al ElliottWell, I'll tell you what, I'll give you my thoughts, then I want to go to your thoughts. Okay, so first of all, If you're like starting a podcast, if you think about it, there is, I don't know the numbers, but let's say there are 100 million podcasts in the world. Well, there's probably like a billion blogs. There's not, but imagine there's a billion blogs. So every website is a blog. If you start a podcast with the express intention of becoming the next, let's, I'm trying to think of a superstar podcast, Truth, Lies and Work, then it's going to be, you're in for a bad time because it's tough to grow. Really, really tough to grow a podcast. The way I always, well, the way someone explained this to me, and I always try and pretend it's my idea, is that the majority of people, and you listening probably the same, have around about half a dozen podcasts that you listen to regularly. So in order for you to build, to grow your podcast, you have to one by one, person by person, knock one of those 6 out and replace them with your podcast.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottSo that's the first thing. Um, so don't do it because you want to make a load of money from it, or you want to, you want to become become a superstar. That's gonna be great if it works, but it's gonna be tough. You said something here, partly to meet interesting people. That is, in my opinion, the most important reason and the best reason to start a podcast. The good thing about podcasts is that no one actually can see how many downloads you get apart from yourself. So, um, if you have a podcast and you only get 1,000 downloads a month, nobody else needs to know that. You, as long as you've got maybe 15, 20 episodes, you can go along and You can say to someone like John Amici, for example, would you like to be on my podcast? Much more likely to say yes than going, would you like to have a cup of tea with me? Can I get on a Zoom call with you? No. So that's the kind of, that's, that's my core reason I think is to start it so you can, so you can talk to people and have a reason for them to say yes. Leanne, what are your thoughts? I agree.
Leanne ElliottI think it's, it's really understanding why you want to start a podcast. If it's kind of as a business development revenue generation route, Then you want to be very, very niche on what you're talking about, and you may only have a small audience, but they're going to be very engaged and will be your customers. Equally, I don't hear many podcasters talk about how their podcast has been the main source of their business development. It's maybe more around branding and awareness rather than generating leads directly.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottI think you're right. It's about the people that you meet, and particularly as a small business, a startup business. It's a great way to expand your network quickly and to people who you wouldn't have access to normally. That's been a game changer for us in terms of the people that we've, we've met and now get to, to call friends. And I think finally you said, is it mainly a passion project? If you love podcasting and you want to give it a go, do it.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottBut just don't say it has to be about work. It could be about something else. Our first podcast was about travel, living abroad. So I think it's why do you want to start a podcast? Is it because you love podcasting and you want to give it a go? Is it because you're looking to, to generate new business, or is it to expand your network? And I think if it is expanding your network or a passion project, go for it. I think if it's business development, there's probably easier and quicker ways.
Al ElliottYeah, totally agree. One way with them, if you do want to do business development on your podcast, this is a potential good playbook you can use. You can go and find Um, your potential customers and interview them for your podcast. And 2 things happen there. First of all, you really learn about their pain points around what it is that you sell so you can start to speak their language. Secondly, you build huge amounts of, um, of rapport with someone after an hour of listening to them. Um, and, and thirdly, then other business owners who have the same problem are likely to listen and go, I wonder how they fix that. And of course, at the end of it, you can go, look, this is how this person fixed it. Or they're still working through these problems. But if you're interested in a quick fix or you're interested in working with someone, then I do X, Y, and Z. And I think that's a very legitimate way to do it. Even if nobody listens, you've still got the opportunity to go and speak to your target customers and build—
Leanne ElliottYeah. Market research.
Al ElliottMarket research. And also, you know, just building your community of, of people who listen. But I say, I say go for it. Ship has not sailed in any way. And also, let's be honest, there's like millions of podcasts out there. But if you— how many have gone past episode 30? Very, very, very few. Yeah, most of them are just, just abandoned. So I wouldn't worry about it.
Leanne ElliottAnd there are actually some, some very important steps and techniques you should use when launching a new podcast in terms of the number of episodes that you launch with and your artwork and your audio and all that, all that good stuff. If you do want some more details on that, Al does offer that coaching to people.
Al ElliottI do.
Leanne ElliottYou never knew that, listener, did you?
Al ElliottI do, very quietly. But yes, get in touch. And there is also an event coming up where we're talking about how to start a podcast. I don't know whether it's public for everyone, but if—
Leanne ElliottIt is going to be public for everybody. Yeah, that is in March. No, is it? Is it next week? Maybe it's in April, but it's coming up soon. When it is, I'll, I'll put it on the old LinkedIn.
Al ElliottYeah, definitely. Okay, so thank you for joining us today on Tuesday. Don't forget to join us on Thursday. We're joined by one of LinkedIn's most famous and funniest members, Bill Yost, one of my genuinely my favourite people. He's my— he's in my top 2 favorite people on LinkedIn. Leanne's number one, obviously.
Leanne ElliottAww.
Al ElliottBill, he was formerly in charge of all of the engagement surveys at Google. He was the engagement survey guy at Google. He's now doing the same for Netflix. Um, just such a great conversation. And it's not just, oh, this is how the big boys do it. He actually has some really, really good advice on how to run engagement surveys properly, um, how to avoid survey fatigue. And then And we just talk about all kinds of stuff. He's just, he's just a, he's just a bloody lovely guy.
Leanne ElliottHe is a really nice guy and such a brilliant example of how, you know, to build credibility, you can, you can also do that with a bit of humour and a bit of lightness at times. It's not all, all serious. Go and follow him on LinkedIn. He is, he is absolutely the— between him and Nick Power and Rebecca Taylor, that's probably just the 3 people you need to follow to have a marvellous time on LinkedIn.
Al ElliottYes, totally agree. Okay, we will talk on LinkedIn. We'll see you on LinkedIn. Jump on and say hi. Say hi. Go and find Leanne. Just search for Leanne Elliott. You'll find her. She's the one with the lovely picture of the lovely face. And we will see you next week. Say goodbye, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottGoodbye, Leanne.
Al ElliottBye-bye.