Episode 35 · 19 April 2023 · 1:38:01
What Work Means to Different Generations: A Baby Boomer, Gen-X, Millennial and Gen-Z Panel
What Work Means to Different Generations: A Baby Boomer, Gen-X, Millennial and Gen-Z Panel
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Setting the scene — the four generations defined
Are Boomers the generational scapegoat?
The soft skills gap — fact or fiction?
Freedom, flexibility and the death of face time
Side hustles through the generations
Social media as the new career playground
Mid-episode break — the Nudge crossover
What Claire's research reveals about Gen-X
Vision, values and goals — what drives each generation
The Gen-Z soft skills gap — whose job is it to fix it?
Why are we seeing a spike in Gen-Z burnout?
Millennials, the American Dream, and higher expectations
Real talk — what frustrates each generation about the others
The advice each generation would give the rest
Show notes
Four Generations, One Table: What Work Means to Boomers, Gen-X, Millennials & Gen-Z
Episode 35 — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) bring together four guests — one from each working generation — to finally have the conversation we've all been waiting for.
Are Boomers misunderstood? Are Millennials entitled? Are Gen-Z really lacking soft skills? And are Gen-X the forgotten generation?
Kari Cardinale (Baby Boomer), Claire Farrow (Gen-X), Ashley Menzies Babatunde (Millennial), and Isobel Reid (Gen-Z) join Al and Leanne to face off on the changes and challenges of the modern workplace — from hybrid work and side hustles to burnout, soft skills, and the shifting definition of success.
No stereotypes. No defensiveness. Just four generations getting real about what work means to them — and what we can all learn from each other.
🎙️ Meet the Panel
Kari Cardinale — Baby Boomer SVP of Digital Strategy at MEA: Modern Elder Academy, where she designs and delivers digital programs to build community movement online. With a Masters in psychology and masters-level work in organizational leadership, she's passionate about leading the new frontier of global community engagement.
Claire Farrow — Gen-X Global Director of Content at Make a Difference Media and Events. A freelance conference producer since 2004, she has worked with some of the world's leading publishers including The New York Times, Incisive Media, Centaur, WARC, Emap, UBM, Crain, Ten Alps and Reed.
Ashley Menzies Babatunde — Millennial Attorney, storyteller and host of the No Straight Path Podcast. Passionate about the intersection of humanity and career, she's a Millennial figuring out how to create structural changes that make companies — and the world — more human-centered.
Isobel Reid — Gen-Z Associate People Development Consultant at The Lab 17, empowering high-growth companies to unlock their potential. A Psychology and neuroscience graduate, she's on a mission to level up leaders and create purpose-led workplaces in which all generations thrive.
🔑 Key Takeaways
Generational labels are lazy shorthand. Once you get past the stereotypes, individuals matter far more than the year they were born. The panel found far more common ground than conflict.
Freedom means different things to different people. For some, it's remote work and flexibility. For others, it's the freedom to focus deeply on a project. Intentionality matters more than the model itself.
The "soft skills gap" is a two-way street. If Gen-Z is struggling with prioritisation and pushback, the onus falls on managers to coach them — not just criticise them.
Expectations have shifted — and that's not weakness. Millennials and Gen-Z have been told the dream is attainable. When institutions don't deliver, they leave. That's not entitlement; that's accountability.
Recognition is the great unifier. Across every generation, feeling seen and valued at work was the common thread.
🔗 Resources & Links
Connect with our guests:
- Kari Cardinale: linkedin.com/in/kari-cardinale
- Claire Farrow: linkedin.com/in/claire-farrow-20896617
- Ashley Menzies Babatunde: linkedin.com/in/ashley-menzies-babatunde-89437036
- Isobel Reid: linkedin.com/in/isobel-reid
Check out the No Straight Path Podcast: ashleymenzies.com/no-straight-path
Listen back to Truth, Lies & Work for more on:
- Personality & Family Business: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/family-business-and-personality_1921
- The Truth Behind Britain's Healthiest Workplaces: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/the-truth-behind-britains-healthiest-workplaces_1940
- Remote Work: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/is-wfh-dead_1982
Connect With Us
Join the conversation on LinkedIn, follow along on social, or get in touch with Al and Leanne — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/truthlieswork
- Al on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/thisisalelliott
- Leanne on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/meetleanne
- Instagram: @truthlieswork
- Twitter/X: @truthlieswork
- Email: podcast@oblonghq.com
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Hey, Al here. Just wanna let you know that today's a bit of a special episode. It's our very first video podcast. So if you check out the show notes, you'll be able to see the link to the YouTube video where you'll see the entire thing on YouTube for the very first time. We're showing our faces live on video, but you also might noticed that the audio is slightly more tinny than normal. That's because we're recording on video, obviously, which we're hopefully going to fix soon. So enjoy the episode.
Leanne ElliottHello, and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottNailed that one, Leanne. Nice one.
Leanne ElliottThank you. You might— you can see us today. Yeah, yeah, you can see us like in animation. I guess you've all seen our pictures because it's on there, isn't it?
Al ElliottYeah, I mean, okay, you've been kind of waiting for the camera now.
Leanne ElliottHi, hi, Mum, I'm on telly.
Al ElliottHas been a bit of a, uh, bit of a challenge getting this one set up just because we're like technically how we're sitting next to each other. As you can tell, we're same background. In fact, can I—
Leanne Elliottyeah, there you go.
Al ElliottI can say hello.
Leanne ElliottHi.
Al ElliottBut, but we're trying to record and it's just— anyway, so what are we talking about today, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottToday, this, this episode has been a long while in the planning, in the recording, in the putting together. Today we have our very first generational panel. We talk a lot about generations on the podcast. We talk about Gen-X a lot, Gen-Z— no, we don't. What do we talk about? Gen-Z. That's who we talk about. Gen-Z a lot, Millennials a lot, Boomers from time to time. So we thought, you know what, rather than just reference these people, we should bring each, each one, a representative of each one, onto the podcast and have a little, a little conversation, see what, see what's occurring, see what we think of each other, and see what we can learn.
Al ElliottSo Leanne went ahead and went and found 4 guests for us. I think we had 3 of them all on at once, and then one of them, which was— she's in Australia, so she couldn't make it at the same time as the rest of the people who were around the world, so we've got her slightly separately. But This is going to be a great, great episode because finally, like, I'm Gen X, so fine. Oh, sorry, I just shouldn't disclose that. I know we've got notes saying we can do that later on. Spoiler. But the— but what we're going to find here is we're going to see the major differences between the generations, and we've got these representatives, although one of them is a representative rather than actual generation, which Leanne will explain in a second.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so what I thought we'd do is to start with is maybe just kind of, kind of go through each generation, the years that They were born, their typical ages now, and what we know from generational studies in terms of their influences and their characteristics. And that's why we talk about generations, because what happens in the world around us as we're growing up, as we're hitting adolescence, that really shapes our identity and how we see the world and how we navigate it. So I thought we'd start with that. So do you want to go first, Al, with the Boomers?
Al ElliottYeah, so Boomers were born between 1946 and 1964, which means that currently they're 59 to 77 years old. This— Leanne's got some great little notes here, which is why I'm looking off to my, to my left here. But she says that they are influenced by civil rights, television, and medical progress. And the characteristics are they are educated, independent, they question authority, although they don't like their authority questioned, in my experience of knowing boomers, and they are quality-focused. So that is the first one, baby boomer, 1946 to 1964.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Both our parents are baby boomers, um, and I think, again, civil rights. My— both of our fathers are very— and your mother as well, like, she's very political, very, you know, involved in, in politics. Um, and I think as well, in terms of the quality focus, like, you always have a story about John Lewis and the, uh, boomers.
Al ElliottOh, sorry, I thought you meant I always have a story. Look, I don't have stories, do I?
Leanne ElliottYou always go on about how John Lewis, like, showrooms will never go out because Blah blah, and no, I do.
Al ElliottPlease tell one that I can't recall right now. But then there are there are companies like BT and BT British Telecom. It's the main, I suppose. Would it be? I can't think of the equivalent is in in. I can't remember the name in the U.S. But basically they're like that they were nationalized. So everyone had their telephones through BT, and then they got privatized. But still, the majority of people who have B majority of boomers have BT, and the majority of BT customers are boomers because they are reliable. They've grown up with them. So they're all about a quality, and they're all about sort of reliability.
Leanne ElliottMoving on, Gen X. So Gen X were born between 1965 and 1980, which makes them between 43 and 60 years old. They were influenced by commercialism, computers, and working parents, and their characteristics are self-reliant, skeptical— skeptical, why can't I say that word? Skeptical and adaptable to change.
Al ElliottI'm Gen X, and I am probably all of those things. Yep, self-reliant. Yep, skeptical from time to time. Adaptable to change, 100%. And yeah, I think computers were a big thing when I was a kid. I used to get something called Computer Shopper, which was a big magazine about— a big multi-magazine about this thick. I used to go through and look, oh, I can build a computer and look at all these cool things. Mind you, I was a super nerd. Lots of other people who are Gen Xers were probably a lot cooler than me.
Leanne ElliottProbably, being honest. No, but I think it's true, isn't it? I think the working parents as well. I think that, that, yeah, that's something self-reliance and independence I definitely see in my elder sisters who are Gen-X and in you as well.
Al ElliottOkay, so then the next, the next ones are called Millennials, but really they're sort of Gen-Y because it went X, Y, Z. So the Gen-Y, but the Millennials because they were born between 1981 and 1996, which means they're 26 to 44 years old. Do you know any Millennials, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottI do. I'm a Millennial. I'm an old Millennial, 1984. So yeah, I think, and I, yeah, Millennials, interesting. We have been Influenced by terrorism, um, the boom in technology, um, much more helicopter parenting.
Al ElliottWhat is helicopter parenting?
Leanne ElliottI'm just— parents always being around, being controlling, hovering. Um, yeah. And characteristics: positive, I like to think so, um, entrepreneurial, socially aware, and keen on flexibility. I would agree with all that. And I think as well, what is interesting when you're like— I was, I think I was 16 when 9/11 happened. And it did just seem that after that, it was just thing after thing after thing after thing. But, um, but yeah, I think that has definitely made us more socially aware and I guess positive because if you dive too deep into it, you probably won't get through the day. Anyway, Gen Z.
Al ElliottGen Zed?
Leanne ElliottZed, depending if you're British or American, I guess. 1997 to 2009, which makes them between 13 and 26 years old. Influenced by climate change, the recession, and they are of course digital natives, which means their characteristics are Environmental, impatient, introverted, and imaginative.
Al ElliottAnd if you— I don't know about you, but I get in my sort of Google News, because I'm a Gen Xer, so I'll use Google News. Gen Zs will probably use TikTok. But in that, I do see a lot of people, a lot of articles around about Gen Z and how they, how they have their approach to work. And they do say that they don't want to see anyone. Like, you know, someone rings, if you try and ring a Gen Z, Um, on their— on the phone, literally pick your phone up and dial them, they're never going to answer because they'll be like, who the hell is ringing me? This phone isn't for ringing, this phone's for all the other stuff. So, um, I think that's quite interesting. And the final one is Gen Alpha. Now they are, uh, from 2010 to 2023. That means they are zero or minus at the moment age up until the age of 13. So, um, with the generation, I don't know what's gonna come after Generation Alpha. Would it be Generation Z?
Leanne ElliottBeta?
Al ElliottI'm guessing. And we've got another 20, 250 years of them. So they are influenced by social networking and by global climate issues. Their characteristics are this so far. I mean, we have to say that the characteristics— the oldest one is 13. So it's very difficult to kind of like generalize here when you've got someone who's not quite adult age, but they seem to be self-sufficient and entrepreneurial. And I would like to talk a little bit at some point, not today, but at some point about why they're entrepreneurial. Is that because their parents, who might be millennials, also are entrepreneurial? I don't know. Interesting.
Leanne ElliottInteresting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there are, there are generations. Of course, we don't have a Gen Alpha with us today, but wanted to kind of finish off, finish off the set there. Um, so yeah, I guess one of the first things we'll— we'll go through our guests in a second, but our first question to them was, what is your favorite thing about being a Gen whatever? I was gonna say X, but that doesn't work, does it? So I said to Al, it's probably only fair if we answer this question ourselves as well. So, Al, you go first. You are a Gen X. What is your favorite thing about being a Gen X?
Al ElliottIt's kind of tough, isn't it? Because you can say, what's your favorite thing about— I mean, what's my favorite thing about being born in that particular era? Or is it what my favorite thing about I'm a Gen X right now?
Leanne ElliottEither, both.
Al ElliottWell, in terms of that era, what is quite cool is, is I'm just going to double-check I've got my maths right here. But I think that Gen X was— yeah, Gen X was was the era where people— we went to the moon, which is kind of cool. So I think that's my favorite thing about being Gen-X is that my generation, we had nothing to do with going to the moon because the oldest one was 4, I think, when it happened. But it was in our sort of generation, which I think is pretty cool.
Leanne ElliottAnd so I'm a Millennial, or a geriatric Millennial, as I've heard coined, if you are born in the early '80s. My favorite thing, and this is probably from being a geriatric Millennial, being born in the The mid-'80s. But I think it was not— it was remembering a time before the internet and before social media. And having my adolescence not documented online, I'll be eternally thankful for. That was not a pretty period, both physically and literally and metaphorically. So I'm very glad about that. And I like, I like that I remember landline telephones. I like that I remember my dad sitting me down and going, this is the internet, it's going to change the world. I feel like I was part of a bit of history, and I think it may be alluding to what I've mentioned before as well, we have seen a lot of history as Millennials, with terrorism, wars, recessions, pandemics. I think that makes us quite resilient. I think it makes us quite pragmatic. I think that's where that keen eye on flexibility comes in. I think there is probably a small dark part inside every Millennial that's fairly convinced the world's going to end tomorrow. So let's just roll with it. Yeah.
Al ElliottWell, better be quick then if we're— if we've got that planned for tomorrow. So should we go and meet our guests then? So who have we got?
Leanne ElliottWe should. So we've got Carrie Cardinale, who is representing our baby boomer voice. She is not a boomer. I think she's actually a Gen-X. But as to why she's representing the boomers, it'll all make sense when Carrie introduces herself. We also have Claire Farrow. She is our Gen-X. We have Ashley Menzies-Babatunde, who is our millennial, and Isabel Reid, who is our Gen-Z. Z. Now, if you want to try and help yourself keep track of this, if you are just listening on audio, or if you'd rather see all of our beautiful guests, then head over to YouTube and you'll see this full episode on video as well. But if you are just audio, to keep track, I thought what might help— Clare, our Gen-X, is from the UK, so she has a British accent. And Isabel, our Gen-Z, is from Australia, so she has an Australian accent. And then we've got Kerry and Ashley, who are from North America. So I thought that might just help. The Gen-X is the The Gen Zers, the Millennials, which only leaves you 2 voices to remember. So before we go and meet our guests, I just want to mention as well that Isabel Reid, who is our Gen Z representative, wasn't on the panel with us, the other 3 panelists, when we recorded because she is based in Sydney and we just couldn't make those time differences work. So what we've done is we've inserted Isabel's clips at various points throughout the conversation where we felt that they fitted and added to the discussion that was being had. But if you're wondering why none of the other panelists refer to Isabel or Izzy by name, they're not ignoring the Gen Z in the room. She wasn't in the room. Um, so yes, hopefully that, that all makes sense.
Al ElliottLet's go and meet them. Uh, my name is Kerry Cardinale. I am the Senior Vice President of Digital Strategy at the Modern Elder Academy, known as MEA. Uh, it is the world's first midlife wisdom school with campuses in Baja, Mexico, Santa Fe, New Mexico, US, and, uh, we have an online academy as well. So your first question is about what is my favorite thing about baby boomers. And I think one of the things that I find that is a favorite thing about baby boomers is that they are living in an era right now that has never really existed before, that we have gained in the past 100 years an extra 30 years of life. So 100 years ago, the average lifespan was about 47, and today it's around 77. But most people are living healthy much further and beyond that. And so what's interesting is that we're not extending childhood, and we're not actually necessarily extending the last years of our life when we are at our most frail, but there's this middle point, and that is where we have extended active, healthy living. So the baby boomers are the first generation where they kind of feel the same in their 60s as they may have in their 30s or 40s, and they're still actively building careers and professional passions, and it's just sort of moving much further down the road. So, it's an interesting generation to watch how they are pioneering being incredibly active through their 70s and into their 80s. I think just paving the way for other generations to follow and the mindset changes that can occur to benefit the other generations, knowing I'm going to live to be 100. I can continue my career. I can have lots of different careers in my life. And, you know, may not always be perfectly done, but when you're pioneering or paving your way, there are some interesting things to watch when you hit something for the first time.
Leanne ElliottFantastic, Kerry. Thank you so much. I'm moving on to Claire. So my name is Claire Farrow. I'm the global head of content for Make a Difference Media, and I also oversee the content for our annual event which is called the Mad World Summit, um, and also another event that we, we run called the Water Cooler. And across all of our platforms, we take a fresh look at the future of work and business through the lens of mental health and well-being. And the content that we produce is for employers who want to understand what they can do to support, um, the workplace well-being of their colleagues. So we try and stay up to date with the latest developments and also help them to navigate the maze of information that's out there at the moment. And so thank you very much for inviting me to be part of this discussion. It's really interesting that we're talking about generations and differences between generations again, because actually, when I remember working on— I think it was the Mad World Summit in 2019, and I wanted to do a session about this, about— and I was told, oh, nobody's talking about that anymore.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottWe've realised there is no difference actually between generations. It's individuals that matter. And I do have some sympathy with that perspective, actually. I do, because I was thinking about this before I came on. I was thinking, you know, is that a generational thing? Or really, you know, I know lots of people that they maybe behave like that, but that's nothing to do with their generation. But I do think I'm hearing more and more from employers that we're talking to, and, you know, from the feedback we get through questions on the webinars and things like that. I think since the pandemic, there has been an increase in conversations around generational differences again. And I don't know why that is. I think maybe it's partly because the pandemic accelerated some of the trends that were already kind of in motion, particularly around technology. And that's really shown up some sort of differences between, you know, it's highlighted the differences between generations in the workplace.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottOr it could be because the pandemic has made a lot of people in their 50s reevaluate their lives and decide to opt out of the workplace. And I think that's something that we're kind of seeing increasingly, and the government here in the UK is trying to push back against and encouraging people in their 50s to try to stay in work. So, as somebody in my 50s, you asked what is the— what What's your favorite thing about being a Gen-X? So, um, I think I love being a Gen-X because I'm not addicted to technology. That's my, my first reason. And I have got— I've got 2 sons, um, one's nearly, uh, 25 and the other one's 21. And particularly the 21-year-old, again, it could be to do with personality more than anything, but, you know, he can't be separated from his phone. You know, he literally can't walk around the house without that phone. I'm like, Thank goodness I'm not like that because I can kind of experience— it feels to me as if I'm experiencing life in a different way when I'm not attached to my phone. And I can, you know, in fact, my sons have a go at me because sometimes I leave, I quite often leave the house without my phone. They're like, don't, why didn't you take your phone, Mum? I was like, what? I didn't think I'd need it, you know. So I think that that's one of the great things about being Gen-X. And I'd say over to, over to the next person. Fantastic. So, Ashley, yeah, introduce yourself and what's your favorite thing about being a millennial? Absolutely. So I am Ashley Menzies-Babatunde and I am an attorney, a storyteller.
Al ElliottI am the pod— the podcast host and creator of No Straight Path, which is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network. So very excited to be connected with Leanne and Al. So I'm podcast host of No Straight Path and we look at the human stories behind success.
Leanne ElliottFrom the millennial perspective, right?
Al ElliottSo when we look at social media, we're seeing all of the highlights.
Leanne ElliottWhen we look at LinkedIn, we looked at our resumes, we're seeing all the highlights, but we're not really seeing the failures, the setbacks, the pivots, finding purpose, all of the human experience behind that.
Al ElliottAnd so that's what we look at on my podcast.
Leanne ElliottAnd we certainly talk to different generations.
Al ElliottWe're very open and we have great discussions, but we do focus on the millennial perspective.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's been a really fun experience.
Al ElliottAnd in my day job, I do a lot of investigation as an attorney, and that's been really fun and a lot of people-focused work. So I'm really interested in human-centered work. How do we create systems to better support our humanity? And that's the work I try to do on my podcast and as an attorney.
Leanne ElliottCan you tell us a bit more about your work, Izzy, and what you do?
Al ElliottYeah, so I work as a people development consultant. So I work internally for a company called The Lab 17, which we have 20 employees. We are based in Australia, and we have a couple of employees in Serbia who support us on the talent acquisition front. The 2 arms are talent acquisition and people development. So in the people development arm, we really support startup, scale-up tech companies with any sort of scaling challenge that they have. From what I've worked on previously, which has been people operations, so in the weeds of onboarding, offboarding, contracting policies through to people experience. We're talking about engagement, we're talking about benefits, and then through to employee development, so learning and development for employees. So we cover a lot of bases, and I am currently on a partnership with UBank in the financial services. I think For me personally, I have a background in psychology, and I made the decision quite early on in my psychology degree that instead of doing clinical psychology, I thought my skills would be best used, or my strengths would be best based in delivery to a larger audience. And hence why I'm on this podcast now. I think for, for me to feel fulfilled and for me to feel like I'm having an impact in my role, I love the idea of the widespread effect that I can have. And so for me to be in startup-scale companies where there is a lot of work to do in this space, there's often not a lot of structure in place around people and culture. and the initiatives and the actions that we do. So you're starting from ground zero sometimes, which is a really exciting space to be beginning building ground up. But I think you just have such a widespread impact on so many people, from your junior employees through to your most senior executives. You are someone that's there to be a soundboard. You're someone that's there to provide learning and development opportunities. You're someone that's there to support on events or activations. You really do wear a lot of hats, and when adequately resourced, that can be an incredibly fulfilling space to be in. I think my favorite thing about being a Gen Z is just based in the way that we are at the forefront of pioneering different ways of working and pioneering different strategies of making work work best for us. And I think it's a really exciting space to be in, um, demanding what we want and then shaping organizations to support us in doing that.
Leanne ElliottCarrie, I'd like to, I'd like to come to you first because there's something you said there in your introduction, your favorite thing about boomers, that it was a fresh, fresh thought for me in terms of that they're pioneering, you know, something, something new. And that's not often always something we associate with, with older generations as being those pioneers. So I guess my question is, do you think boomers are misunderstood?
Al ElliottWhat a great question. I think absolutely. I think that boomers have kind of become a generational scapegoat for everything that's going wrong on the planet. And that's not necessarily the case. You know, they were the largest generation in the United States, but they've now been eclipsed by millennials. But nonetheless, I do believe it was a huge generation that emerged after World War II that broke a lot of molds as they went through each generation. So the boomers were in many ways pioneers that they took an era of great predictability coming out of the 1950s and the postwar when everyone just wanted things to be quiet and predictable and simple. So you saw the rise of suburban households and moms being at home and cookies after school, and there was this need for things to be consistent. And yet this generation of the boomers became the hippies and the rock and rollers and playing with drugs and jumping out of those predictable career paths and all along the way finding a desire to do things different and in a different way. And not everything was reckless. The boomers are known for making traveling interesting and passing seatbelt laws at the same time. They were really the generation that pioneered activism. It took sort of the activism of the 1920s, the women's right to vote, and took it to another level of activism, and as well as volunteerism, the creation of the Peace Corps. So it was a generation that continues to this day to be highly innovative. There's more entrepreneurs, which I can speak a bit more about later when it comes to business, and, and some of the highest philanthropic giving coming from this generation. So I do think they're a bit misunderstood. And, and, you know, as you had said, Claire, There was sort of a flattening of the generations, but then there was also this, okay, boomer, okay, millennial. There's still these levels of, of not fully understanding the different generations. And, you know, my rule of thumb is that anyone who's 15 years older than you feels old. So, you know, we, we just generationally struggle sometimes to fully embrace someone who is 15 years younger or older than we are. And yet there's so much richness to learn.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. And with that, I mean, coming to you, Clare, you know, Boomer versus Millennial, and now Gen Z is being talked about a lot more. Are Gen X the forgotten generation? Do we talk about Gen X enough? You see, I had a little think about this before coming on the podcast. I don't think we are the forgotten generation, actually. You know, we're, we're all working hard. We're, we're kind of reaping the rewards of our efforts. I think it does completely vary, obviously, you know, from organization to organization. We're often in senior management roles. I think maybe what people forget sometimes is that things like technology don't perhaps come as easily to our generation as to others.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd so maybe we do need a bit of extra input on that, a bit of extra training. There's room for some skills development, for instance. But I don't think that— so I'd say that maybe in that respect, organisations need to be switched on to understanding the needs of our generation. And also, I think a lot of people in my generation are, you know, sandwiched right in the middle between elderly parents and sort of growing children. And it's those kind of needs that need to be understood, and people need to remember that, you know, we still have a huge amount of value that we can bring to the workplace whilst also juggling all these responsibilities. So I think the really switched-on employers are the ones that tune into people's actual individual contributions and what they can make regardless of what their, you know, home circumstances are, whatever. There may be also people who've you know, experience divorce or, you know, be going through other sort of transitions in their lives around sort of my age. And again, it's kind of employers need to be switched on to the kind of things that may be impacting, you know, people of my generation, I guess. Absolutely. I think that's something that I think, and again, how the world of work is evolving, where we are seeing more work-life integration rather than segregation, it's going to be these issues that are really going to start to, start to have an impact. I mean, in terms of your thoughts, Ashley, I know you mentioned in terms of when you're introducing yourself that, and it's all the, you know, the drive behind your podcast as well to show different stories. There is no straight path to success and that millennials, you know, have started to change perhaps where they work, what work looks like. What do you think some of the biggest differences are for you in terms of how millennials see work, approach work, craft work as part of their lives?
Al ElliottYeah. Yeah, so I think the biggest shift that I've seen, and it's something that I think we've always wanted, but I believe Claire mentioned this earlier, just about the change in the trends were really sped up by the pandemic, right? So remote work was a big thing that I think has really changed all generations' perspectives. And I think millennials are into it. We love it. We love a remote work situation.
Leanne ElliottAnd so I think that that's something that's not It's now a part of the way that we wanna work.
Al ElliottWe wanna have that flexibility. We wanna have control. We wanna feel like we have control over our lives. I'm hearing the word freedom a lot.
Leanne ElliottWe wanna feel free. And so I think that it is different for everyone.
Al ElliottSo I'm having a lot of conversations and freedom looks different to everyone. So some people want to have that 9-to-5 job and just have the flexibility so that they can work on their side hustle.
Leanne ElliottSome people want to just have the freedom to specifically work on that so they can just have time for their hobbies.
Al ElliottBut I think that the idea of face time is something that is just of the past, and I think that millennials want to create spaces where we can continue to have this flexibility and have this control over our lives.
Leanne ElliottAnd thinking of that, because I know one of the main concerns around remote work, hybrid work model, is the challenges in innovating, the challenges in connecting, And the challenges in, in, you know, knowledge sharing. And how do you see those challenges as a, as a millennial, Ashley? Do you think it is harder for us to connect virtually? So I don't think so, but I do think having an initial framework where you have the opportunity to get to know your coworkers is important.
Al ElliottSo I think for me, it wasn't very challenging to switch to a remote work situation because I had developed relationships with mentors, with with the younger associates, with the talent development team, and a lot of that happened in the office. And so I think that there are ways to create community by having some in-office opportunities or opportunities where you do just get to gather in person. And I think there's also ways to do it virtually, you know. So I think that it also depends on your perspective when it comes to work. I think people's perspectives are changing, you know. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSome people would rather just hang out with their families and connect briefly at work and do what needs to be done and find fulfillment outside of work.
Al ElliottSome people really want to have that connection. So getting the opportunity to go into the office and do these kinds of things, I think, is important. So it's really like, I think the word also is the optionality, I think, is important to people. But from my personal experience, I I have not had any issues with connecting with people, with brainstorming.
Leanne ElliottI'll—
Al ElliottI'm happy to hop on a Zoom, happy to, to work with someone virtually, to actually, you know, work on the Google Doc together simultaneously. Technology, technology has created a space for us to really work efficiently and effectively together. The remote working. I think a lot of Gen Zs at this point in time because a lot of us entered the workforce— me especially— after university. We did university during a COVID era, and so a lot of us are used to remote working, online learning. Coming back to the workforce and that being a new experience for some of us feels quite daunting. And feels like there's a lot of ground to make up. And I've heard of this concept of Gen Z having fewer soft skills in the workforce than other generations previously, and that being because there is a lack of in-person collaboration and in-person learning. And I think there is some truth to that, to be honest. I think The moments that we spend in person are for learning and collaboration and are for building our skills. And then the moments that we spend doing deep thinking work are for creating and building and strategizing and actioning. So I would love to see a balance. For me, what that looks like would be 3 days in the office and 2 days at home. But for others it's different.
Leanne ElliottSo it sounds like a hybrid model then might be something that would be beneficial. I mean, what do you say to the, you know, people who are leaders who are bringing people back into the office for a set number of days a week because that's how we communicate, collaborate, Do you think there's merit in that?
Al ElliottI do think there's merit in that, in the way that I think if you're intentional about the days that you're coming in and the way that you're spending your time with your team, there can be so much value in connecting and collaborating. It does become tricky when you are mandated to come in on set number of days or specifically set days during the week because every week looks different and every employee has different projects on during the week. And there's some times where just being at home makes sense because you can get more work done, you can have more deep thinking time, you are distracted less easily. And for me personally, when I have a lot of project work I prefer to be home because I thrive in that space. Whereas if I have a lot of collaboration or facilitation that requires me to be in the office, I also thrive in that space as well. So I think it would be about being intentional about why we're coming into the office and actually scheduling the days that we are in office to involve connection as opposed to sitting at a desk with our earphones in. And not speaking for 8 hours.
Leanne ElliottI couldn't agree more. I think intention is so important when with any decision, but I think particularly with, you know, if we're mandating people to do a certain thing, having, you know, the intention behind that to make these things happen. Otherwise that collaboration won't happen, that communication won't happen.
Al ElliottI have a quick question, just something what Ashley said. This is for, for Carrie and Claire. Um, side hustle, it seems to be quite a new thing. Now, I'm a Gen X too. Um, so did Boomer generation and Gen X, did we have side hustles? And if we did, what do we call them? Well, you know, I could certainly jump in first. I think for Baby Boomers, the sort of first side hustle was like a newspaper route.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottUm, right. So there were opportunities for jobs for teenagers. For the baby boomer generation, that babysitting or, you know, these little jobs that are actually much harder for newer generations to get. And I think that the idea of a side hustle— think about Tupperware parties. The rise of direct marketing companies really flourished through the boomers to allow, you know, if it was a one-income household, the other party staying home could still find a side hustle to sell Mary Kay or something.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottTo bring in a little bit of extra money. And in the world of in real life, that was so much the state that it also provided a social element. And currently, a lot of baby boomers lost a good portion of their retirement in the 2008 financial crash, or just never earned enough to build this extra 30 years, like retiring at 65 or whatever. Most people don't have enough money accumulated at that point to carry on in a healthy way into their 80s. So the need to have a side hustle has become a huge, huge aspect of the boomer's professional life, starting an entrepreneurial project or continuing to work, expanding their skills, as Clare had mentioned, to, to stay in the workforce longer. What do you think, Clare? When we were younger, did we have side hustles?
Leanne ElliottUm, I actually love the idea of side hustles. I think it's absolutely brilliant to have that much flexibility in your working life. And actually, both my sons have got side hustles and They both work for employers that are like totally on board with them having this side hustle, and it's the perfect complement for them. They can get steady income, and yet they also have their time to kind of indulge sort of more passion projects that are perhaps, you know, they're just building up in an entrepreneurial way. I think that the flexibility that it gives for entrepreneurs is brilliant, and I can completely understand why, why the, you know, the younger generation are into side hustles. Um, did we have our side hustles? Um, I mean, I've, I've been freelance for years, so I guess maybe— I don't think I'm the norm though. So, you know, I've been kind of side hustling for years, but I think it was, yeah, as I say, that was quite unusual, um, you know, when I started doing it. Um, perhaps a bit more of a forerunner, um, of the kind of the gig economy really. I could the potential that there was in there, you know, that all of a sudden it actually didn't matter where you worked. You could work for anybody anywhere in the world. And of course, that's just accelerated hugely over the years. Um, so yeah, I can see people— other people I know from my generation have never had side hustles or would have thought of doing that, um, because they had steady jobs, um, and would see that as their main income, you know, or they would move Um, but would be prepared to stay in that job for, for years and years and expect to have their careers developed, um, you know, over that time. So I'd say, yeah, there's definitely a difference there. And I think we, you know, we've talked a lot, quite a bit of technology's come up, social media's come up, and I think as well this rise of the side hustle often, you know, with the Millennials and Gen Zs tends to be technology-based. I mean, Ashley, in terms of your experiences, I mean, What impact has social media had on, on the workplace and on how millennials view work? Yeah, I think that's a good question. I really think the first thing that comes to mind is LinkedIn.
Al ElliottI think that that is the way now that people honestly get jobs.
Leanne ElliottIt's through social media, it's through social media networking, and even the rise of thought leadership on specific social media platforms.
Al ElliottJust being able to have this exchange of information and understand Like you don't even, and I'm, I've talked to a lot of people from the Gen Z population, not to overgeneralize, but a lot of them say they don't even read books anymore. Like they will just go to that specific influencer.
Leanne ElliottAnd I've noticed myself going on LinkedIn and following specific creators and influencers who are talking about different work issues.
Al ElliottLike I'm really passionate about the human-centered work and organizational psychology, so I'll follow those thought leaders and that really can inform the work that you're doing in your workplace.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's just—
Al ElliottYeah. an easier, accessible way to access knowledge.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think the other thing that you're seeing is social media brand management is an entire industry, right?
Al ElliottSo when I was in high school, that wasn't really a job. Podcasting wasn't really a job.
Leanne ElliottBut after coming out of college, that is something that you can apply to.
Al ElliottEvery brand, every business needs to be on social media to reach their customers, to understand what they want. And even when it comes to advertisements, When we're looking at social media now, it's all via these influencers, micro-influencers. Like, that's— you wanna see relatability.
Leanne ElliottLike, the, the rise of, you know, I don't know, maybe it's celeb—
Al Elliottcelebrities are still popular, but it's a bit different. So you're seeing how social media is really just infiltrating your business, your workplace, the trend setting. It's here to stay.
Leanne ElliottAnd I am still figuring it out, to be quite honest. The advent of TikTok, like, I am still getting there.
Al ElliottSo many of my friends are on it, but, um, Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd yeah, and how does that— what does that mean for baby boomers, Carrie? Particularly like you, you know, you were saying there, you know, they're finding themselves in a position where work is, is remaining part of life for longer and that they're pioneering that. I guess my question is, how does social media play into that? Does it perhaps— is it an added challenge for, for, um, the boomer generation who, who didn't grow up with it, aren't as familiar? Um, and perhaps maybe as well a bit about the, about the Modern Elder Academy and the work that you're doing there to help facilitate this shift?
Al ElliottYeah, sure.
Leanne ElliottThank you.
Al ElliottI think social media— I love actually hearing Ashley saying that she doesn't understand TikTok. I feel like way better now knowing that because, wow, cool. I don't feel as irrelevant. But I think that when it comes to technology, it's so interesting that it is a way to like do a little microscope on each generation. That when technology to this level, the internet, computers, phones, software, was entirely new to the boomer generation as adults. So they had already created fully functioning careers without any of those tools. And at that time, it was actually hard. Learning technology was a pain in the butt. Like, you had to take a class to learn how to do Excel, right? Like, it was hard. Like, oh my God. And then they would change the interface on Microsoft Word and everyone, like, couldn't find the buttons.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Al ElliottIt was— our brain wasn't really used to it. We hadn't seen it. And so that created like a certain muscle memory, I think, in the boomer generation that technology is going to be hard to learn. It's going to be a hassle to learn it. And I think that is just a residual element that some people might recognize when you see, you know, someone handing their phone to their kid to go, I don't— what is this? Yeah. Versus other generations that you know now we're astonished the boomers to see like a two-year-old taking an iPad and like popping and swiping and opening things. It's like mind-blowing that technology has become that simple that a toddler could use it. But you know the rise of social media, it was not pioneered necessarily by the boomers and how to use it for community connection, but yet it's become so. We talked about the pandemic, as you had said, Claire, really bringing up the different needs for technology in various generations. Social media is here to stay. Zoom is here to stay. The pandemic crashed everybody's idea that this was an irrelevant platform, and suddenly we're on Zoom funerals. We're babysitting grandchildren on Zoom. We're meeting coworkers now for the first time virtually that we might not meet in person. It's all kind of new. But also discovering what I like to call digital intimacy. That there is this deep intimacy that's available online. That is this delightful discovery that suddenly now you can build connections with people all over the world and feel as, you know, satisfied in the quality of that relationship that suddenly doesn't matter as much if we come together. And certainly at the Modern Elder Academy, was founded by Chip Conley, who was the epitome of a baby boomer connector. He was a Rebel hospitality hotelier, created these super boutiquey hotels that were all fostered around themes and community, did very well, sold that in his 50s, started at 25, sold it in his 50s in midlife, wasn't sure what to do next, and then ended up being approached by Brian Chesky and the team at Airbnb to help mentor them, who were 25-year-olds, to launch this little unknown thing called Airbnb. And, uh, he— it became the ultimate story of the generations that here's someone coming in who had in-real-life experience, who'd never heard of a SaaS product, had no idea what these terms were, and had to navigate his innate wisdom in business with their sheer raw intuitive capacity and to build this great idea. They called him the modern elder. And his first reaction was a bunch of expletives that I'm not gonna be able to say on the air. That was his reaction. And he thought, oh, well, okay, cool. I'll take that on. So he ended up writing a book called Wisdom at Work, which was all about this idea of being a mentern, a mentor and an intern at any age. You could be 18 years old and mentor someone who's 16 and be an intern to someone who's 25, like to just be that has mentor. Yeah. And he was like, opened up this possibility of being open to learning and teaching throughout the generations. He opened the Modern Elder Academy in Mexico, which became a destination resort, 5-star hospitality place to immerse yourself in exploring the transitions of life. Midlife has now been defined to be anywhere from age 35 to 70. So wow, it's just, it's a stage of life when things are shifting. Maybe you've aged out of your career in tech.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottat 35 and you're wondering what's next, or maybe you don't pick up your head till you're in your 70s. So we created all this cool programming that's everything from introspective conversations and thought leadership to learning to surf and making margaritas and everything in between. And then my job was to create this idea of modern elder wisdom and put it into an online form. So I got to apply these ideas of digital intimacy and bring people together in a retreat-type immersion experience so they could gain those insights without having to travel, without having to leave their jobs. And we've had huge success. We've had 3,000 alumni from 42 countries through the pandemic that were able to explore this stage of life. So it's been a lot of fun.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a fascinating topic. It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back. And it is— I've watched one of Chip's TED Talks, and it is fascinating how he talks about the modern elder and its relevance within, within the modern workplaces. How does that resonate with you, Ashley? Because I know also you mentor Gen Z. How, how, how do you feel that would, that would work in that world? Do you— could you imagine a 16-year-old being a mentor to a 35-year-old? I think it's a great question. Paired up with a baby boomer in a mentoring relationship? Yeah, absolutely.
Al ElliottI just love that idea.
Leanne ElliottI love that so much because I think you can learn so much from people with different lived experiences.
Al ElliottAnd one different lived experience is generation, right? And it goes both ways. So I think it's extremely important and I think it's something that we need to do. So I just love that whole idea. And I also just love the term digital intimacy because it reminded me that I actually got to know my partner mentor at my firm during the pandemic a lot more than when she was 3 offices down from me.
Leanne ElliottShe was in trial a lot. I was moving back and forth.
Al ElliottYou're going between, you know, quickly I would see her in the bathroom or actually at the water cooler. They talk about this water cooler talk, but we'd actually have more intimate conversations about my career journey, what I wanted to do. She had pointed me to a specific leadership position, all of that happened over Zoom.
Leanne ElliottAnd I really got to know people more actually during the pandemic because we were having certain topic discussions that led to more vulnerability and more empathy. And so I completely agree.
Al ElliottI think that you're able to closely connect with people even if they're very far away.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Claire, coming, coming to you, and I'm intrigued to ask about some of the— you do lots of research and insights gathering at Make a Difference Media. What are you seeing in terms of the views of these generational differences of expectations, of opinion, of experiences of wellbeing? Are there any kind of headlines you could share with us? Well, it's interesting, 'cause you might think that, you know, the older generations aren't thriving as much at work, but actually it's the opposite. There's research that's actually about to come out, but it's sort of under embargo at the moment, so I can't refer to it in too much detail. But I can tell you that the kind of top-line insights, which are that the— it's actually the millennials, the younger generations, who are struggling more with their sort of wellbeing at work than the older ones. And you think, well, why is, you know, maybe that's surprising? And partly it's because the older generations kind of understand themselves more.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottThey, they, they know how to control their emotions perhaps a bit more, being a little bit generalist about it. They perhaps have thought more about kind of what actually gives them purpose and, and, you know, are, you know, fulfilling those roles and also perhaps have a little bit more work-life balance. So, you know, I think that in terms of the research that we've done ourselves, has shown that younger generations do expect more from their employers in terms of the kind of support that they'd like to see them giving to help with their wellbeing. The older generation perhaps are accepting that it's more their personal responsibility. And they're also wanting to see workplace cultures, which is so— such an important part of workplace wellbeing, actually, that support workplace wellbeing. So it's not just having a culture of care. It's also having a workplace culture that's, that's actually thought about work-life balance, that has thought about whether they're recruiting the right people to the right job, and allows for the kind of flexibility that you were talking about before, Ashley, about, you know, allowing for a side hustle or allowing somebody to do a 4-day week, for instance. So that's kind of coming a bit more from, from the millennials. But having said that, lots of people in my generation appreciate the idea of a 4-day week as well, because it allows you time catch up on some of your other commitments, you know, and achieve that work-life balance that I suppose everybody's looking for ultimately. So what do you think it is that, that you want, that Gen Zs want, that is perhaps different to what's gone before?
Al ElliottI think first and foremost, this has been my experience, that I find a connection to vision, values, and goals. To be something that I hold to the utmost regard. Um, I have previously been with Lululemon as a retail store assistant, and I think my experiences with connecting to their vision, values, and their goals was even when I was on the retail floor, they brought all of the employees along for the journey Um, and aligned all of these employees with their values, helped all of the employers, um, connect with their goals and where they wanted to go, and made the employees feel as though they were helping propel them there. Um, and so I think that just the way that companies can do that would look like in the initial stages of onboarding, taking employees through that life cycle of where we are currently, where we're going, and then how you can help us get there. I think as well really, really supporting learning and development. And I know a lot of companies will say that they have really great learning and development opportunities, and that would look like potentially having a day off to go to a conference, or potentially having meet and greets, or different events that are put on by work. But in my experience as well, I have seen companies that really care about the employee both as an employee of the company but then also as an employee who goes out into the workforce and who speaks about their previous experience at one company. And that previous experience then translates to incredible skills that they learned whilst they were there, and it shines a really positive light on the organization. Um, so employers that are really honest and open about the career journey where someone wants to go and who they can introduce them to to get there, or the employers, um, the skills that they can teach them to help them succeed.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. And can I ask where kind of— if you know even where this kind of drive comes from, particularly in terms of kind of the vision and the values and the We hear that a lot, and the research is suggesting that as well. Do you know where that drive comes from? Why is that? You said it's your most highest priority. Why is that?
Al ElliottYeah, I think it's quite interesting. And I've also looked into the research as well. And I think from my findings, it taught me that 50% of Gen Z said they wouldn't accept a job that didn't align with their vision and values. And I think this is especially around social and environmental issues, and that was compared to just over a third of baby boomers. So there's a really big push for companies to be responsible, to do better. In my personal opinion, I think the way that the media is nowadays, that you hear so much more about what companies are doing Previous employees are so much more outspoken about their experiences, and those experiences are then translated through the media or through LinkedIn. You get more of an insight into companies internally, and I think the way that then employees will base their intention to go to a job will be based upon the things that they hear.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, so I think that the information that's coming into us, we then decide, make our decisions about a job or a prospective job, um, based upon that information. And just the way that our generation specifically is so empowered in our environmental considerations and our social considerations And there's a huge emphasis on DE&I in this space as well. And I think that this has been something that has been really pioneering at the forefront of most of the people and culture spaces and initiatives in the past 5 to 10 years. And that's been almost as long as the Gen Z have been in the workforce.
Leanne ElliottThere's a soft skills gap with Gen Z, and you said, you know, to an extent you can, you can see that. I mean, in terms of You know, assuming that there is a gap, how do we help our Gen Z workforce address that skills gap? How can we better support them to develop those soft skills?
Al ElliottI love that question. I think some of the onus falls on the people leaders or the managers of these Gen Zs in the workforce. I think I see the gap most clearly in communication and standards around communication. And particularly when giving feedback or receiving feedback or asking for feedback. So I think feedback's a muscle that a lot of people need to train, no matter whether you're a Gen Z or whether you have been in the workforce for 20, 30, 40 years. So I think for managers to upskill their employees in feedback conversations Uh, is going to be really, really important, as well as conversations around your capacity, your priorities, and what's on your plate, and how to respond to a request if it comes in to move something off your priorities list to then be able to fit something on. I find that in my experience, a lot of Gen Zs are more likely to take on tasks just by virtue of being in a more junior role, wanting to prove themselves, wanting to be seen and be heard and do a really good job, and also not having the, the courage or the bravery to push back in those early stages of their career. So I think as well empowering them to do so and giving them the language.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottor coaching them in the language on how to prioritize and then how to push back.
Leanne ElliottDo you think that might be part of the reason we've seen a spike in burnout amongst the Gen Z age group? This, you know, difficulty in saying no and just taking on more?
Al ElliottYeah, it's a really, really interesting concept. I have personally studied burnout And it wasn't in a population of Gen Z workers, it was in a population of healthcare workers. So it's comparing apples and oranges. But speaking from my experience of what I've seen in the workforce, I would say that there's a multitude of things. I think for one, it is definitely about the ability to continue taking on more and more and more, and the drive for Gen Z to do that because they want to progress their career. And sometimes in the workforce, especially when you are— you're not comfortable with how capable you are in doing your job, it can feel like all you have to offer is your time, and that is your primary resource. So giving that away seems like the most logical thing to do. I think as well there's a lot to be said about wellness programs within companies and the way that companies support employee wellness, and having that be something that is socialized every single day and having that things that are actually tangibly available to employees and they're encouraged to take, as opposed to things that might appear tokenistic or are seen on benefits pages, but to be able to access those things are quite difficult, or there's barriers to, or they're not.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLike they're not available, um, to people, and often people don't use them unless they really do need them, such as EAP programs. But in saying that, don't get me wrong, those are key, key part of wellness and health in organizations. I can see that there's other things that employees can do better.
Leanne ElliottAshley, what's your, your thoughts on that, that How younger generations are experiencing perhaps more negative wellbeing at the minute? Yeah, I'm actually not surprised.
Al ElliottI completely agree with Claire.
Leanne ElliottI think that our expectations from work are higher. I think that we are a generation that grew up and we were told that we could follow our dreams.
Al ElliottWe were told that the— and I'm speaking from an American perspective. But the American dream was attainable. And we are the first generation where we're not actually seeing the same results. And so I think that is very challenging. The student loan debt crisis has really made it challenging for the millennial generation. We're overeducated, undercompensated. And so we're thinking, okay, if I can't get a home, if I still own student loan debt, at least—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThese institutions, I need to be happy. At least I need to be fulfilled every day.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think it was exacerbated by what happened at the pan—
Al Elliottduring the pandemic when we all realized the fragility of life, right? Everybody experiences loss at different stages.
Leanne ElliottAnd so it really created a wake-up call for lots of people, and especially millennials, where we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut today I wanna be happy, I wanna be fulfilled.
Al ElliottAnd so if I don't feel like this institution is supporting me, it's not supporting my wellbeing, it's not supporting my lived experience.
Leanne ElliottWhen we talk about DEI, inclusion as a Black woman, all of that comes into play.
Al ElliottThat is gonna be challenging for millennials. And so I think that's why we are not as happy. And I think that We will get there.
Leanne ElliottI'm an optimist, but I think that's also why we've been really creative.
Al ElliottI think that millennials also believe that, okay, I might not get it from work. So that's why we have the introduction of the side hustle. We have, you know, people becoming entrepreneurs, becoming their own bosses. We have different initiatives. You know, a lot of my friends are politicians. They're going, they're activists, they're community organizers.
Leanne ElliottThey're trying to figure figure out how can we create a world and a system that's gonna really give us that American dream that was promised, because we're not seeing it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd actually, it's, it's more accessible in, in a lot of ways, partly because of technology as well. I mean, a lot of the barriers to, to entry into sort of entrepreneurism have, have, you know, been broken down. It's a lot easier to access now than, than ever before, I think. Um, so that's— it's great, I think, people see the need for that flexibility and are grasping it. Yeah, absolutely. And, and Carrie, what are your thoughts? Because I think, you know, when we, when we think anecdotally, or maybe there's been people we know or things we see in the media, the baby boomer generation might think well-being is all just a bit of nonsense. And, you know, that particularly in the UK, that stiff upper lip and crack on and get on with it. Burnout didn't exist in my day. What do you think the baby boomers' current viewpoint is of this, you know, much more attention and discussion had around wellbeing?
Al ElliottYou know, I don't have the study in front of me, but it was really fascinating. There was a study shown of the common complaints of the older generation to the younger generation through the decades, and they were very similar. So it's, I think it's part of how our, the neuroplasticity of our brain Our brain changes as we get older. There's sort of these perceptions of how we are in the world that feels more comfortable to us. So when we're younger, we have this more fluid intelligence. We're able to kind of be nimble and take risks and be adventurous and try new things. We don't always think about the consequences of those things, but that allows the risk-taking. And then as we get older, our brain changes. And we have this crystallized intelligence that allows us to kind of gather lots of resources from different places and make more holistic decisions. So that can turn out into, oh my God, the younger generation, they're so irresponsible, they're so lazy, they're so this or that. Part of that, I think, is literally the way our brain is reflecting their perceptions of the world. But, you know, truly, now more than ever, There is such a need and a desire for people to find meaning and purpose. And what does that mean? And it is very different. Ashley, you spoke so beautifully about the millennials are lost in debt, and they, they had this idea that the boomers had and the Gen X had, for the most part, that if you go to college, you're going to get a better job. Even if you're like a philosophy major, if you get an undergraduate degree, like, that is your ticket. to getting paid more money, and you can find a sense of purpose at your job or a sense of purpose in your family and institutions. And so much of that has gone away now that an undergraduate degree doesn't actually mean as much, and it's not a guarantee. You have all this debt. You may have to go on YouTube to train yourself on these particular skills to go get that job. So how do we find purpose has become A totally new question in the modern day that we may find it through Ashley saying, oh, I'm connecting with my coworkers in a new way, or I just want to be happy.
Leanne ElliottI want a 4-hour—
Al ElliottI need more time. I need more freedom. So purpose may expand. We like to talk about having a purpose portfolio. Like, what does that mean to have a portfolio of the things that get me out of bed in the morning? And that might be attending to my family or attending to a hobby business or attending to a cause that's really important to me. And if I have those front and center in my life, that will help me make it through the other things that are challenging, like my savings account is not so full, or I don't own a home, or the fears that are so prevalent, the anxieties that we have in the uncertainties of the world today.
Leanne ElliottI guess that comes down to kind of understanding your priorities, doesn't it?
Al ElliottIt kind of—
Leanne Elliottyeah, if you could have different— people have different priorities across their life, don't they? And it doesn't all— it doesn't all have to feed into work. Well, you'd have— you'd hope it wouldn't all feed into work.
Al ElliottIt shouldn't, right?
Leanne ElliottIs that an expectation of senior managers though, Clare, that typically might be more Gen-X, that work should be, you know, the number one priority? And I think, you know, if that's the case, then they need to open their eyes and start listening to people. Um, you know, and all of this actually boils down to listening to you, to your people, and understanding their needs and understanding where they're coming from, where they're, where they're at, regardless of which generation they're, they're in, they're part of. So, um, yeah, there may, there may be an expectation around that from, from some people of my generation, um, but if there are, then they're going to lose out because, you know, they need to tune into, to what And as a, as a Gen Z, do you think you're misunderstood?
Al ElliottI think the misunderstanding that I've experienced has come from a lot of older generations saying things along the lines of they want to work from home, so therefore or they're not as driven, or they don't do as much, or they're not maximizing their time. And I've had a lot of experiences where older employees have been the ones at the forefront of bringing people into work, and the reason for that being that they don't, don't want their younger employees to fall behind. And so I think that that is quite a big stigma around working from home and specifically with younger employees. But I think, you know, that the research goes to show that a lot of people are quite productive at home, especially Gen Z, when they are given those remote working opportunities.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIf you align the productivity with their employee experience and then with less burnout and greater wellness, it's such a knock-on effect. And fewer employees leaving the company, reduced turnover— these are all things that are so intricately aligned with one another. Both of our parents have come working-class backgrounds, and it seemed like they spent most of their time working so hard to get into the middle class. Is that still a thing with millennials and Gen Zs? Do they still look at it that same way?
Leanne ElliottI don't know. I mean, just looking at my own sons, I think they don't really think in terms of class or kind of, I've got to get a child to go to university. You know, in fact, my eldest son didn't even go to university. He chose chose not to. He wanted to do an apprenticeship, you know, because he recognized that actually that might be a way for him to gain really valuable skills and not have a debt at the end of the day. Um, so, but I think they do, they do look at what their peers are doing. They look at what, uh, influencers are doing as well and, and what their idea of successful is. But that, that again is— can be different. It's not necessarily about You know, how big your house is or what kind of car you're driving. Um, you know, it could be about the kind of lifestyle that you're living, um, having, having a job that offers the flexibility to work whilst you're abroad and, you know, um, have just 4-day week, for instance. So, um, I think that, yeah, the drives are still there, but the drivers are different. And it's not about getting one step up from the generation I don't know if you'd agree, Ashley. I mean, I'm just drawing on my knowledge of 2 sons and their peers, really. Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's nuanced, right?
Al ElliottSo I think that just getting to the next socioeconomic status ring is something that is important to millennials. I think financial security is important to millennials, but I do think I think at what cost? Like, I don't think that millennials want— oh, I have different friends, but I know that most people don't want to grind it out at a job that is unfulfilling to get financial security. Everyone has read that happiness study by the Harvard— I believe it was Harvard Business School, but something out of Harvard where, you know, if you make a certain amount of money, that's going, then there's diminishing returns on happiness. And we have classes at all the top universities teaching happiness because so many people have anxiety and depression. And so I think that what's going on is people are seeing that the pursuit of money and success and the way that we used to look at it is often associated with a negative Well-being status. And so people wanna be healthy, they wanna be happy, they wanna be fulfilled, and they also want financial security, but it doesn't need to be at the cost of their humanity. And so I think that struggle is something that we're having a lot of conversations about and we're trying—
Leanne Elliottoh, that's why people are being creative to figure out how they can still attain that. Yeah, it isn't— I grew up in a similar thing. I'm what I saw the other The other day I'm called a geriatric millennial, which I found somewhat offensive.
Al ElliottI think that's more ageist.
Leanne ElliottBut it's the thing, actually, like, you, you know, you grew up in environments like, you, you know, you, you go to school, you go to university, you get a job, you do this, and it gets that, that moment where suddenly you think, is this, is this it? How do you feel about— because there are some, and I must admit I've, I've not, I've not personally met one, but I see it in the news and I see it in the media and I see it online. Who people, you know, older generations who say Gen Z just don't want to work, Gen Z are lazy. How do you respond to that?
Al ElliottI would, I would respond by rebutting that completely. I would say that it's not that we don't want to work. We are more than capable and more than happy and more than enthusiastic to be working. I think whilst there is so many grabs to our time, especially as— and as I speak from my own experiences, especially in startup scale-up industries, there's so many jobs to do and physically not enough time in the day. So I think I think the concept of working smarter, not harder, is quite relevant here, and the concept of work-life balance as well. I think that whilst, whilst I'm a really hard worker personally, and whilst I see the people around me working really hard, I often don't think that the hours you work equals the productivity or the impact or the output that you provide. Because during those hours, it's not, it's not as if you're going to be productive all the time, or it's not as if you're going to be doing your best work all the time. So I think there's such a big push, especially with hybrid working or remote working, to work as you work best or work where you work best. And coming back to that conversation of if you have deep thinking work to do, do it at home, or even down to scheduling your day or time blocking your day in the times that you know that you function best, or you know that your brain functions best to do those deep thinking tasks, and then maybe admin in the other times. So I think a really big opportunity here for employers to lean into that remote working or hybrid working and support their employees to really schedule their time and create the open communication about where they're going to be, what they're going to be working on, and what works best for them and how it works best for them. So they can Absolutely.
Leanne ElliottI worry we've all been a bit polite. Let's, let's, let's get some, some real talk. What, what frustrates us about, about other, other generations, either, either up or, or down? What, what things that kind of maybe get on our, our nerves? Carrie, can I come to you first? Wow. I, I think that one of the—
Al Elliottit's like not really what gets on my nerves, but a concern that I see. I see a huge concern around the nuclear family and extended family being much more spread out with the expanded generations, and that, that's creating a lot of tension on caregiving for older adults. That, you know, we used to have multigenerational households, so the aunties were around, the grandmas were around, the babies were around, and there was this ability to kind of shared care across the spectrum. That's gone now. And I, I just think we're hitting a huge crisis of The boomers are getting older and the silent generation and they're all alone. And then you have these millennials who are all alone, can't afford to buy a house. And we've lost some of that kind of simple homey, all be together and take care of each other. So it's become much more expensive for a millennial to buy their own house and then grandma to have to go into assisted living. And it's just crazy. So that's something that annoys me to some degree or bothers me or worries me about the generations kind of creating these much more striated lifestyles that can be really challenging when something happens with an illness or unexpected babies or aging parents. I think it's something we really have to put all of our heads together within the generations to, to solve.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Claire, is there anything that bugs you? Yeah, definitely. I'm happy not to be polite. Um, I— it's communication. I mean, actually, I nearly mentioned this before when, when we were talking about communication styles, and it's like the bite-sized communication that I find hardest to kind of deal with, you know. Um, they don't read emails properly, and they want things on Slack, you know, or all these other channels. I'm like, I'm already doing stuff on this channel, why should I, you know, use your channel? Um, so I think, you know, none of this is insurmountable, obviously, but I do find that challenging. There are def— there's definitely a difference in communication styles now. Um, and I think, you, you know, it's impacted the way that I communicate, and not necessarily for the worse, you know. I'm perhaps more concise than I used to be and get to the point, but I find I find it sometimes even a bit rude, you know, if people don't read my email properly or, you know, don't respond at all. That seems to be something that seems to be acceptable. So I think that that's what I find hardest about the differences between the different generations, because younger generations— older generation, I think are wonderful. I love them both. I've got no complaints there.
Al ElliottIt's funny you say, Claire, when I think that my dad thinks that the, the email replies I give to him, his email, are probably quite rude, the way that I would think that my nephew, who's like 19, will go, okay.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd I'm like, oi, I've just spent 15 minutes writing this text there. And so it's probably, it's like, it's much generations through the generations. You know, my dad still sends me emails going, regards, Dad.
Leanne ElliottHow about you, Ashley?
Al ElliottYeah, so I have story, but I just really quickly wanna respond to Kerry's point because I really just love it. I agree just as far as your, the generations just being so spread out from one another and coming together.
Leanne ElliottI could, I've experienced that in my own life and I feel really grateful.
Al ElliottLike I went off to school, I went to the East Coast, I've traveled, I've done all of these things, but I came back home. And it was very helpful being close to my grandmother before she passed away, being close to my mother before she passed away. Like, I was able to really be present. And so it's really changed my perspective.
Leanne ElliottAnd I'm, you know, a younger—
Al ElliottI'm 33 as a millennial experiencing loss. Not everybody experiences that. And so not everybody has the same perspective that I have now where I am working really hard to get all of my family in one place.
Leanne ElliottAnd I don't know if I would have thought about that previously, but it is extremely important. And so that's something that I'm working on. Yeah.
Al ElliottThat my husband and I are working towards.
Leanne ElliottAnd, and I think that would—
Al Elliottbecause we have had more choice and more opportunities, we've been able to move all around in different places. And, and so it does disconnect us from our family physically. And so it's amazing to have this choice and opportunities and go off and do what, you know, what you'd like and pursue your dreams.
Leanne ElliottBut there's this balancing act.
Al ElliottSo I love that you said that because it's something that has been top of mind for my family.
Leanne ElliottAnd for me specifically, love all generations, but one thing that is challenging is that when I try to explain my vision for the kind of workplace that I want to see to leadership, they look at me sometimes like I'm crazy.
Al ElliottAnd, and even just the words I use, I remember using, saying that I really wanna center our humanity.
Leanne ElliottAnd I was pitching a specific proposal and I remember someone said like, what does that mean? That's gonna be offensive to people.
Al ElliottOf course, this is a humane workplace. You know, this is not going to go over well. And it was just really interesting because a couple of months later, that language was everywhere in organizational psychology pieces.
Leanne ElliottIt was everywhere on LinkedIn.
Al ElliottAnd I, I knew I had a, like, I had my hand on the pulse. I understood what the people wanted.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm. But I felt shut down in my explanations and in my visions.
Al ElliottAnd so, and I knew that it was coming, you know, not from a bad place, but I did feel like sometimes it's really hard to advocate for the vision that I see for the workplace when I am talking to the boomer generation. I think I've seen a shift recently in the way that specifically women will present themselves from a younger generation and not conform to the male stereotypes of a leader. And I've had this discussion with some of my friends who are also in corporate, um, in the way that a lot of the female leaders they see have adopted this bulldog-like approach on going after— if it's in relation to business development or moving at such a pace that doesn't allow for learning and doesn't allow for mentorship and doesn't allow for development and doesn't allow for feedback. It's just a constant moving towards the goal, and the goal is always is, you know, tracking along in front of it, so you'll never reach it. And I think that where I haven't seen Gen Z thrive has been in that environment where there's little communication about where we're going. There's little communication about what the feedback is about the project that you've just delivered.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd there's little recognition. I think recognition is such a key piece that I see younger people doing it more so than the older generation, and really impactful recognition as well. I'm talking when you see something that either aligns with the values of the company or aligns with the values of the individual, or that you respect someone doing. You see that, you call it out, you bring it back to why it was so important that that was done and the impact that it had. And I think we could all get better in this space, but it's been my experience that there is less of that. Um, in an older generation, just because the values are less socialized and the learning and development is less strong in that space around feedback as well. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAny thoughts on that, Kerry?
Al ElliottYeah, just what— able to extend vision, to be a visionary Millennial can be tricky, right? Standing in a level of competency and being willing to stick it out. And to your point, being finger on the pulse of something that suddenly caught fire, isn't that classic? Like, sometimes it just takes a minute for an older generation to get it. Like, they're not first. They were not first on Facebook. They were not. They were on MySpace. Like, it just takes a minute. And so, like, how do we create patience? And from both sides, to really lean into the leadership that I believe the millennial generation is bringing forward— huge, potent, powerful generation with a certain clarity of how life could and should be— and to give the boomers a minute to get out of that kind of fixed mindset and lean into a growth mindset. It takes a lot of curiosity. And trust to do so. And so I think that is very valid and important to figure out how to find that tenacity, Ashley, that you've created to keep going.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd they're all listening.
Al ElliottIt just takes time, like you said, the trust and curiosity. I think that's spot on. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd that leads me nicely to my final question, maybe to all of you. You know, I think everything we've talked about seems to come back to a, I guess, a headline of we all experience the world slightly differently, but then we also seem to be experiencing it exactly the same way. And communication seems to be playing a big part in this gap, perhaps, in our understanding and empathy at times. What can we do to perhaps bridge the generational gaps we're seeing at the moment and improve communication between different age groups? Well, I love the idea of reverse mentoring. I think that's fantastic. I think we should do, every company should do it, every organisation should do it. organization should do it. And for me, it just comes back down to listening, really improving listening skills and helping people, training people in empathy if they don't have it already naturally, being able to put yourself in other people's shoes. And I think it's that kind— those are the skills that help transcend the differences between generations.
Al ElliottI could jump in. Our work here at MEA, we partnered with an extraordinary social entrepreneur who is a— I think he's a Gen Xer like you, Claire— named Michael Hebb. And he created an initiative called Death Over Dinner, which was using the dinner table as a place of social architecture and bringing people together to have difficult conversations. And there's a new initiative called Generations Over Dinner. That sounds so good. And it's basically a dinner party challenge to bring as many generations as possible together over dinner. And they created a website where you could sign up and they would have topics and like a plan, like how to have a planned kind of dinner party with a few questions to pose and a challenge. Can you get 5, 6, even 7 generations around the table and then have everyone respond to a few And I've participated and hosted a few, and they were so magical. Just the magic of sharing food, the simplicity of sitting together around a table, and really well-curated questions you didn't have to think of yourself that people can easily lean into and answer. It just created something you kind of think about for days and days afterwards. And I think like those are the kind of things All kinds of seeds, like really creative way to plant a seed to just when we come together and we see our humanity, everything takes care of itself from there. Yeah. Yeah. Ashley?
Leanne ElliottYeah, so I love that.
Al ElliottI think that empathy is important, getting into the same room and even just naming the topic. If you're in a workplace environment and you're bringing in different generations, let's have the discussion that we are literally having right now, has been so incredible, and really talk about our experiences, why we think the way we are thinking. And from a general operational perspective, I do think we try to do it from a DEI perspective. We try to do it from an industry perspective. But it's really cool to just come in and just talk about these things.
Leanne ElliottAnd as far as empathy, I think it's important to maybe think about the people in your life who you're close to who are of a different generation and the empathy that you might have for that person. And extend it to someone that you may not know in the workplace or outside of it. Think about it.
Al ElliottYou know, I remember we were just with celebrating my dad's 65th birthday and with my, my whole family, my cousins, and we're joking. And my dad and my uncles didn't understand half the jokes that we were saying. Like, there's just sometimes there's just like a disconnect, and that's okay. Use that same empathy that you have for your family and your loved ones for everyone else, because we're all human and we all deserve it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottbit.
Leanne ElliottIzzy, is there anything that I haven't asked you that perhaps I should have?
Al ElliottI love that question. Um, I think what I would love to speak to that I see as being a really important topic of conversation is at the moment how to engage Gen Z and how to engage Gen Z talent specifically who are entering the workforce, because the talent market is so strong at the moment, and there's lots of people who at this point in time are looking for roles, looking for graduate roles specifically, or have just been made redundant in the space, or who are on the lookout. And I read a statistic the other day that had said that I think 70% of Gen Z are actively looking for work out in the workforce. So I think for employees or companies or people to be looking out in the market, I think it's really, really important to as I've said before, uh, really socialize the values and the goals and the mission and align employees to that. So on your job listing, do include that because it really does make a difference. I think as well, I've seen a lot of job descriptions that contain the type of person that they want you to be. And I think that this could sometimes be problematic in that kind of space because we're not looking for a culture fit, we're looking for a culture add. We're looking for someone to go above and beyond and, you know, stretch the boundaries of what they want to see and what is currently existing in the company. So I think that providing a summary of what you do and maybe the competencies that relate directly to what you'll do, the functional strengths and knowledge that you need, is relevant. But also including a, a summary of people, if they don't actually you know, meet all of the criteria to still apply anyway. The research shows that candidates from underrepresented backgrounds don't apply for roles if they don't meet all the criteria, and it is seen most in populations of women that don't meet the criteria, don't apply for the job. So I think a note on the bottom of the job listing about if you don't apply— sorry, if you don't meet all the criteria. And then a really big emphasis on the employee benefits that are offered. And I think this is really where companies can go above and beyond about the learning opportunities, the wellness benefits. I've seen it done really, really well with some companies offering paid time off or offering a wellness stipend for their employees. And I think also, you know, outlining the things like parental leave and like domestic violence leave. If these are things that are on your policies, then they should also be on your job listings, because I think it also says to prospective employers that these companies are open to women joining who may be in childbearing years, or who may be nearing the time where they want to have children, or have started to think about having children. And previously, those women have been discriminated in the market, and there has been decisions, hiring decisions made because those women have been pregnant or has been thinking about getting pregnant. So I think those types of things really weave in the diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives that I would be looking for in a company if I were on the market at the moment. I thought it was so interesting just listening to the different aspects, and I've never seen a panel where we've had different people all on at the same time giving their opinions of different things. And I definitely resonated a lot with Clare because she's my generation. And, and yeah, and I think Isabelle, it's just so interesting. I learned so much about all the different generations, I think.
Leanne ElliottYeah, yeah, me too. And I think as well, I, yeah, I really— everything kind of Ashley said resonated with me, particularly in terms of this kind of, you know, we were promised a dream, we were told we could be whatever we wanted to, and that's not really happening. And what Carrie said as well about You know, the boomers being pioneers in terms of what this kind of, you know, older midlife looks like now. I thought it was really interesting. And I think the point is that, that Isabel ended on there in terms of how to engage and recruit Gen Z. If you are struggling, she just gave you about 20 minutes worth of free consultancy there. So yeah, yeah, really, really great advice.
Al ElliottBrilliant. So I think next week we are at the water cooler, are we? Or are we going to be doing the water cooler?
Leanne ElliottWe are. So we're actually, we've actually release this episode a little bit early, so all of our new friends at the Water Cooler, um, on, on the Tuesday— what are the dates again? 25th, 26th of April. Um, we'll be able to listen to this, this episode and get a flavor. We thought it was a good example of, of the things we, we talk about.
Al ElliottSo next week, the episode is gonna be all about the Water Cooler, all the cool people we've met at the Water Cooler, um, and, uh, Leanne will have some Exclusive interviews with some very impressive people. I think we've organized those, so make sure that, make sure that you listen in next week.
Leanne ElliottSee you there.
Al ElliottBye-bye.