Truth, Lies & Work

Episode 62 · 26 October 2023 · 1:02:28

How to Avoid DEIB Washing (Through Allyship)

How to Avoid DEIB Washing (Through Allyship)

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Chapters & timestamps

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  1. Allyship: moving beyond passive support

    other#allyship#passive-support#active-support

  2. Respectful curiosity as an allyship tool

    other#respectful-curiosity#allyship#tool

  3. Mistakes are part of the journey

    other#mistakes#privilege#allyship#learning

  4. Belonging: the heart of DEIB

    other#belonging#deib#workplace-culture

  5. DEI washing: recognising token efforts

    other#dei-washing#tokenism#diversity-equity-inclusion

  6. Data-led DEI: leveraging insights for change

    other#data-led-dei#insights#change#metrics

  7. Culture-led DEI: nurturing inclusivity from within

    other#culture-led-dei#inclusivity#workplace-culture

  8. No silver bullets — practical next steps and wrap-up

    other#practical-steps#no-silver-bullets#wrap-up#deib

Show notes

How to Avoid DEIB Washing (Through Allyship)

Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) take their DEIB conversation to the next level, exploring what it truly means to be an ally, why belonging sits at the heart of inclusion, and how to spot — and avoid — the pitfalls of DEI washing.

Recorded fresh from the MAD World Summit, this episode brings together four incredible experts: Shelley O'Connor (LGBTQ+ Co-Chair at The Bank of England), Farhana Kuddus (global DEI leader), Jessica Schibli (Interim Head of Creative Diversity at the BBC), and Kulbir Sergill (Director of Social Inclusion at University of Warwick).

Together, they break down the five emerging trends in DEIB — allyship, belonging, DEI washing, data-led DEI, and culture-led DEI — with practical advice for leaders at every level.

🔥 The Five Trends in DEIB

1. Allyship — moving beyond passive support Shelley O'Connor from the Bank of England shares what it means to be an ally in 2023 and beyond. It's more than a buzzword — it's about actions that go beyond passive support. Whether you're in a massive institution or a small business, allyship is about announcing your intention and following through.

2. Belonging — the heart of DEIB Farhana Kuddus makes the case for belonging as the foundation of all DEI work. It's not just another buzzword — it's a deep psychological need. Get it right and you unlock retention, engagement, and performance. Get it wrong, and inclusion efforts come across as fake.

3. DEI washing — recognising token efforts Jessica Schibli helps us understand the difference between authentic DEI and surface-level actions. Like wellness washing and greenwashing before it, DEI washing is what happens when organisations tick boxes instead of making real change.

4. Data-led DEI — leveraging insights for change Kulbir Sergill shares how organisations can use data-driven approaches to make meaningful change. As Leanne puts it: "You can't change what you're not measuring." But collecting data isn't the end goal — it's what you do with it that counts.

5. Culture-led DEI — nurturing inclusivity from within The final piece of the puzzle: embedding DEI into the DNA of your organisation. As Shelley points out, if the Bank of England can change, anyone can.

💡 Key Takeaways

  • Allyship is a verb. Announce your intention, then follow through. Passive support isn't support.
  • You don't have to be perfect. Making mistakes is part of the journey — what matters is creating safe spaces where people can have a voice.
  • Belonging is a psychological need. It's not a nice-to-have; it's fundamental to retention, engagement, and performance.
  • Beware "random acts of diversity and inclusion." Token gestures without strategy are DEI washing in disguise.
  • Data beats guesswork. You can't change what you're not measuring — but don't stop at data collection.
  • Culture eats strategy. DEI only works when it's built into the DNA of your organisation, not bolted on.

📚 Resources & Links

Connect with the guests:

More from Make a Difference Media:

More DEIB content:

Listen back for more:

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more. Nice.
Al ElliottCheck out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottYou don't have to be perfect. As long as someone has a safe space and can have a voice, you're winning. Hello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Work Culture podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. What is it, Al? It's the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYeah. And one of the themes that came out from the MAD World conference a couple of weeks ago now is EDI inclusion, DEIB. There's lots of words for it. We don't worry, we're gonna go into all of those again. We have done an episode previously on this, which we called DEI 101, I think, uh, which basically went into— I think we had the amazing Sonia Thompson on there— went into a little bit about what you need to know as a beginner. This is a little bit more advanced, but I promise you, this is one of the themes that 2024 will be all about. So you need to be on top of this.
Leanne ElliottYes, absolutely. There is sadly again no time for the news roundup this week. It will come back, I promise. Um, but yeah, I guess this episode is a news roundup. It is the, the word of the week, the organizations to watch, it is the people who are cool. It is everything that news roundup would normally include anyway. So yeah, this week we are talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and specifically what we learned about future trends of DEI at the Mad World Summit, where we were the official podcast. I'm not sure if we've told you, but we were. Uh, so this episode is once again brought to you in partnership with Mad World and Make a Difference Media, which is the all-year-round media channel that supports both Mad World and the Water Cooler event.
Al ElliottSo we have 3 amazing guests, including Shelley O'Connor from the Bank of England, Jessica Shibley from the BBC. Yeah, might have heard of them. And Kulbir Sergal, who's from the University of Warwick, but also has got a really interesting background. She's worked basically everywhere. She's a cool, very, very cool woman. We also had a conversation on Zoom with Farhana Kuddus, uh, who's a global DEI leader who's worked with Sky and NASA. Yeah, that NASA. She's worked for NASA. Uh, and while she wasn't there at the Mad World event this year, she is a speaker on the circuit.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottUm, and she's got vast expertise, and we knew that she had value to bring to this conversation, which is why we included her.
Leanne ElliottYes, and regular listeners may well remember episode 45, which is EDI 101 for Leaders: Breaking Barriers and Fostering Inclusive Workplaces, with the incredible Katherine Garrard, who wrote, um, Conscious Inclusion, and Sonia Thompson, our friend from the HubSpot Podcast Network. Her show Inclusion and Marketing is one to check out. If you are new to the area of DEI, we'd highly recommend that you go back and listen to that episode. It's episode 45, EDI 101 for Leaders. We will leave a link because today we are taking the conversation further.
Al ElliottYeah. And I'm always, as a business owner, not an expert like Leanne, I'm always saying, look, just give me the skinny, give me the, the 80/20 of all of this so that I can get my head round it. So Leanne has put this into 5 particular areas, which is gonna make things so much easier for you. So the first one is allyship, a word I hadn't heard of until we went to the Mad World and it was all over. So if you've not heard of it, You will do in 12 months' time. It'll be everywhere. Second one is belonging, which is the B in DEIB. The third one is DEI washing. If you heard of wellness washing or greenwashing, then a lot of people are going, oh yeah, we do DEI because it's the cool thing to do. They don't really, they're just basically, uh, they're just basically making it up. Uh, the fourth thing is data-led EDI. If you know anything about Leanne, you'll know that she loves data almost as much as she loves me, her husband.
Leanne ElliottAlmost.
Al ElliottAlmost. And finally, culture-led DEI. Confused? Don't worry about it. We'll be walking you through all of this. The expert Leanne will be talking through it. And if there's anything that sounds a bit like, hmm, that sounds a bit sciency, I'll be asking the questions to make sure that she tells us exactly what we need to know.
Leanne ElliottWe have 4 incredible guests to help us explore the latest trends and best practice in EDI. So let's go and meet them, Al.
Al ElliottThe first one is Shelley O'Connor, who's from the Bank of England. Shelley is a performance manager and LGBTQ+ network co-chair. You may remember from last week's episode, we featured a small snippet from her. But if you missed it, here's an introduction to Shelley.
Leanne ElliottSo Shelley O'Connor, pronouns she/her. And yes, LGBT co-chair at the Bank of England. And I've been in co-chair for a few years now. But I've actually been in the bank for 12 years. So I'm a longstanding member, shall we say. And my day job, I work in HR. So I'm a performance manager. So the appraisals, end-of-year performance reviews, performance and all that fun stuff. Our second guest is Corbière Sergil. Corbière is the Director of Social Inclusion at the University of Warwick. Before transitioning into higher education, Corbière worked for some of the private sector's biggest players, including Grant Thornton and KPMG. Let's meet Corbière and hear more about her work and her transition into the University of Warwick. It was the role at the university which was a new role for them. Because they really wanted to take a very holistic approach, a strategic approach to inclusion for both their students, their staff, and actually what it was that they were doing, how they were doing it, and how the kind of inclusion agenda actually impacted on their outputs. So for me, that was a really kind of interesting challenge to bring what I had been doing in very different sectors to a university, which are kind of quite unique cultures, actually. They're very, very different from anywhere that I've worked before. So for me, that was a real kind of interest and a challenge.
Al ElliottOur third guest is Jessica Shibley, who is the Interim Head of Creative Diversity at the BBC. Let's go meet Jess.
Leanne ElliottMy name is Jessica Shibley. I work at the BBC. My role is Interim Head of Creative Diversity. Primarily, it's looking at making sure that we've got representation in our content that's on and off screen and making sure that the production companies that we work with are diverse and inclusive. And I guess effectively serving our audiences and providing value to all our audiences. And last but certainly not least, we are thrilled to welcome to the podcast Farhana Kudos. a global DEI leader who's worked with, I don't know, a little organization you might have heard of called NASA. Professionally, I'm, um, a global diversity and equity inclusion leader. Um, I also am a professional in change as a changemaker, so driving change, defining change, building change, and making it happen. And hand in hand with that goes diversity, equity, inclusion. Absolutely love what I do, people at the heart of that. Um, therefore, it all day, every day.
Al ElliottOkay, Lee, those are our wonderful guests. Let's dive into topic number 1, which is allyship.
Leanne ElliottIf you listened last week, you'll already know that allyship emerged as a key trend at the MAD World Summit and in DEI practice. So being an ally in the workplace means continually working to champion an environment of inclusivity, of mutual respect in the workplace. You know, traditionally, being an ally meant using your personal privilege to support colleagues from what would perhaps be historically marginalized communities. So as Jess explained, being an ally isn't something you can just do. It's just, oh, I'm an ally. It's, it's not a noun, it's a verb, if that makes sense. So we need to employ that empathy, that agency, and those resources to truly be an ally of marginalized communities. And I'd like you to try and remember that definition as we explore allyship. Our first guest, Shelley O'Connor, LGBTQ+ co-chair at the Bank of England, brings this to life really beautifully, introducing us to an employee reference group. So, uh, ERG, employee reference group, networks— different people have different names. We call them networks, staff networks, colleague networks, and they're the communities that, uh, are in an organization that can really make a difference in DE&I. Um, so, and allies are important. So, um, as I mentioned, I'm co-chair of the LGBTQ+ network, and I'm first ally co-chair of the network, and the network's been running for 17 years now. Being allies and stepping up when the communities aren't in the room, I just— yeah, allyship is a very important subject for me and to make a difference. So an employee reference group, or ERG, is an employee-led group that usually shares a characteristic such as gender or ethnicity or sexual orientation. They exist to provide support and highlight unique challenges and use their resources to make change that will create a safe space for employees in an organisation. And operating in this way, ERGs are a source of allyship.
Al ElliottAs a smaller business— obviously Bank of England, massive— as a smaller business, I wanted to find out whether you can actually do ERGs in smaller businesses. So I said to Shelley, let's just imagine we've got 20 or 30 employees. Does this still work?
Leanne ElliottWhether it's your colleagues of ethnic minority or people of color or LGBTQ+ or women, men, different genders, non-binary, like, so everyone will have a voice and have different lived experience. So for your organization to thrive, you need to listen to all voices around the table. So the networks, it doesn't have to be, if you're that small organization, have to be a well-organized steering group and meetings. It could literally just be one or two people representing that community? Because when you do eventually grow, because most businesses want to grow, you've got a starting block to, to kind of have that safe space for them colleagues. So as I mentioned, typically ERGs will be created by people who share a characteristic, but people that don't share this characteristic may also be invited to join an ERG. And in this way, they become allies because they're using their empathy, their agency, and their resources as part of the group to promote the voice of others that need it. Corbière, who is Director of Social Inclusion at the University of Warwick, believes that individual allies are not just important, but crucial to inclusion. Of course, I think anybody can be an ally. You know, I think that's the whole point of inclusion. Being an ally is actually being able to— not necessarily that you may identify as being part of a certain group, but actually being able to have some insight and some empathy and some understanding of what it is like for somebody who may be completely different to you, may have a completely different background or even values to you, but actually just being able to step out of yourself and saying, okay, I'm not the same as that person, but I get it. I can see all the challenges that you face. And you know what? There are ways that I can kind of help in kind of challenging some of that myself. I may not be able to do all of it. I may not know all the answers cuz I'm not you, but if I can help, then these are the things I can do.
Al ElliottFarhana also provided some really practical advice on how to build an ERG and how to contribute as an ally. And like most things, it starts with intention.
Leanne ElliottAnnounce your presence, announce your, your intention, but most importantly, go through with that intention to make impact. Often we'll sit here and say it doesn't come across genuine, or I don't know how to start. But actually, the first thing we can do is start. So first of all, know this: you're absolutely welcome, and we want you. And then beyond that, have the conversation. And most importantly, let's explore what we can do together.
Al ElliottKolbiar also went on to, to recommend respectful curiosity as this useful tool to becoming an ally as a leader.
Leanne ElliottAnd I talk about respectful curiosity. So it's that kind of balance of being curious, but being respectful with it and just being sensitive to how you're asking questions and where you're asking questions. And actually, you might start with your own kind of knowledge. There's so much information out there. Most kind of employee resource groups and campaigning organizations will have websites. So there's lots of things you can do just to kind of read stuff up before you maybe even start talking, which may make you feel a little bit more confident about asking some of the questions you might want to ask. But, you know, asking people questions about themselves obviously is a very personal, could be a very intrusive thing. So get to know people first. You know, it's thinking about our friends, you know, our best friends. We can ask them anything, can't we? It's kind of like they don't feel threatened by it because we know where we're at. We have a trust. And actually, maybe that's the first point to start. Building relationships, building empathy often starts with understanding. And as Corbya said, that being respectfully curious by asking close people, uh, questions or even just reading up on, on key issues can be hugely helpful. Another hugely powerful way of building empathy is through storytelling, and the BBC has been committed to this mission for more than 100 years. Today, their values are still aligned with that. They include things like providing information to help people engage and understand the world around them, to support the learning of people of all ages, and to reflect and represent the diverse communities of the UK. Our guest Jessica Shibley works at the heart of this mission as Interim Head of Creative Diversity at the BBC. Yeah, I think we're in a very unique position, um, and I think it's a, a very privileged position actually, and I think it's one that everyone I work with takes with a lot of pride, passion, but also realises the kind of how acute that responsibility is as well as a public service broadcaster. And, you know, at the very heart of our existence is providing that public service, providing value for all audiences. My background actually is in children's TV. Um, and for me, that's an area that I've been so, so passionate about because I just feel that especially for young audiences, to be able to see yourself represented in content, in TV, is, is so, so important. And I think it actually shapes how you see yourself, um, how confident you might be about your identity, um, but also how you see the world as well. And I think, um, we cannot underestimate the power that media can have on society, and especially coming from that children's media space, you know, I think it really can drive how children see each other. And in our content, to make sure that, you know, audiences can see families like theirs or different characteristics like theirs, whether it's disability, whether it's LGBTQ+, Whether it's race, culture, religion, um, you know, different houses, um, different homes. Um, and I think that for us, in the broadest sense, we want to represent and reflect the whole of the UK, um, and, and represent all, you know, the demographic of the UK. I think, um, it comes down to, um, I guess, the, the stories. And I think it's, um, for us, you know, Audiences are at the very heart of what we do. And I think even the example I gave, um, with, um, the children's drama, um, and, you know, even the response we've seen over the last couple of days, like, after announcing that there's a season 2 coming out, I think it's, it's seeing that, that audience feedback, um, and hearing how it's actually changing people's lives. Um, we've got another brilliant, uh, comedy that came out this year called Dreaming Whilst Black. Um, again, You know, sort of landmark portrayal of content. I highly recommend it if you haven't watched it. Absolutely brilliant series. And, you know, we had diversity through and throughout the production team, the writer, the, you know, the lead actor, also lots of interdental diversity. And then, and then when we sort of see that response from the audience, I think that makes us like really proud, makes me proud to see, you know, this is the impact that it's having. I think it's just like, especially with that one, I think the audience is saying that actually this represents like, um, their experience, um, and they're feeling that their stories are being told. Um, and I think, you know, I think when historically we haven't had as much diversity, I think that people feel like their stories— I mean, I just think me personally, myself growing up, I didn't feel that I would even expect to see myself on screen, let alone a story of a family like mine being told. Um, and I think when we say, you know, we sort of— and especially with the children's point of view, like, actually, that person, that character is like me, or this family is like me, or this experience— with Dreaming Smiles Back, we had a lot of people saying, oh my God, this, this really depicts my experience. I think that's really powerful. It might sound a bit glib to say that watching TV shows about marginalized communities will help you build empathy and understanding and perhaps motivate your agency. But, you know, there are TV shows that have, have impacted societal change. I mean, Will and Grace was quoted by Joe Biden when he was talking about equal marriage rights in the US. I think he said something like, that show taught, taught people more than anything else we've ever done did. Um, you know, I think that that same year Channel 4. It's around 2012 time. Um, Channel 4 were in charge of the coverage of the Paralympic Games, and it went crazy huge, the Paralympic Games that year. Some incredible stats. I mean, like, the beginning of the summer, awareness of what the Paralympics was was 16% generally. By the end of the summer, it was 77%. Huge. And of course, we have the, you know, the BBC's Blue Planet presented by David Attenborough. It created what was dubbed the Blue Planet Effect. Um, so even the Queen apparently watched— the late Queen, God bless her. Um, she apparently— she still— she watched this episode and she banned single-use plastic across royal estates. The UK government pledged over £60 million to fight plastic pollution. It really can have an impact watching, you know, having these incredible shows on TV. And that's why the BBC and Jessica's work is so important. The media, pop culture, it does impact social change through education, through representation, and of course normalization. It plays a crucial part in building allyship.
Al ElliottI think we can all think of lots of different TVs and films that sparked sort of a conversation that brought people around together around a set of shared values. Farhana explains that this is actually the first step of starting a movement for change.
Leanne ElliottSo where do we start in this example? in this scenario. We started from nothing. We started with an organization's values, and those values were strong. And in order to strengthen those values, one of the ways we came together was naturally a group of people not, not knowing it was going to be belonging, diversity, equity, inclusion, but actually coming together naturally, connecting. And that fantastic example started to grow.
Al ElliottOne of the concerns that I've got being a straight, privileged, white, middle-class male is that I'm gonna mess this up. I'm gonna say something I shouldn't say with the right meaning and the right sort of thought behind it. So I asked Shelley, what happens if I make a mistake? What happens if us as business leaders, we're doing our best, but we say the wrong thing? What do we do?
Leanne ElliottYeah, so don't be afraid to make mistakes. Like, it's fine to make mistakes. If, for example, if I got someone's pronouns wrong, you kind of correct yourself and move on. It's about learning from your mistakes and showing that you're taking on board when you've been corrected. Even the smallest— follow different people on social media because you'll pick up language and like kind of phrases and what to say and what not to say. Like, the big thing at the moment is the debate on the word queer, for example, people of older generations still remember the '80s and the '90s when that's a derogative term. Whereas if you talk to the grads now coming through, they're claiming it back and they're owning that, and it's a positive word. But even in the community, there is still this debate and uncomfortableness about using the word, and that's fine. But it's about if you're using it yourself or where. So I personally, don't use it because I don't know if I'm going to offend someone or not. But that's not to say that if someone said it to me about themselves, that I would take any offense. And some people will go, yes, of course, like, I'm proud to be queer. Or some people might go, actually, no. And that's fine. And then you go, okay, how do you want me to describe you if that is needed? Or would you prefer if I just use the umbrella term of LGBTQ+? Or Rainbow, Pride, like, that's obviously wonderful words to use, but never be afraid to ask because, um, it's the same with pronouns. Don't make assumptions as well. Just ask, and then you all know where you stand and move on. I honestly think that allyship is going to be something we hear more and more about over the next 12 months and what it actually really means to be an ally. You know, it's not posting a black square on your Instagram on You know, for Black Lives Matter. That's not, that's not an ally make. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's not a noun. It's a, it's a verb.
Al ElliottYeah. So in 2024, you're gonna hear that word a lot. And now hopefully you've got an overview of what it is. If you wanna do more, which I hope you do, then dive more into, well, just Google it. You'll find more stuff on there, but also maybe contact some of the guests. So their, their links are in the show notes. Um, I know they'd be, I know Shelley can't, she can't share everything she does at the Bank of England because obviously some of it's private. Uh, but she certainly said she was very open to talking to anyone about how they can become a great ally.
Leanne ElliottSo that is allyship. The second area trend that we're seeing is belonging, and that's what we will be exploring next. As a leader, you might have heard, probably heard of DEI, but more recently there has been an extension to DEIB. What does the B stand for? It stands for belonging.
Al ElliottWhen I was speaking to Farhana, I said, kind of tongue-in-cheek, I said, Oh, come on. Is this just another word that we need to learn to placate those snowflakes? Uh, is it just a TikTok thing? Is it gonna disappear in 6 months? Is it really a thing?
Leanne ElliottIt is a thing. We evolve over time, and over time, you know, we need to, um, reimagine certain things, right? Reimagine and give new lease of life to, to our work, to our goals, to our ambitions, right? And so belonging has always been there, but I truly believe it's, it's a word that started to come in to really re-energize and really bring back focus on what it is we do and why we do it. And actually, it's the first thing before diversity, before equity, before all of the words that you've just said, because without me feeling like I belong in a conversation with you, you won't get me in the door. I was reading that transcript of your interview with Farhana, and I did— I would kind of laugh, and I was like, oh gosh, I hope she— I hope she knew the tone that that question came with. It did make me laugh. Like, snowflakes. Is it just for the snowflakes? Um, yeah, belonging, feeling accepted by a group. That is the definition, and it has been around for a while. I think Aristotle actually talked about belonging, so it was quite some time ago. Um, it has Belonging had a place in Maslow's hierarchy of needs. There are 2 psychologists called Baumeister and Leary. They were really considered the pioneers of belonging research, and they found that not— that failing to satisfy the need to belong can cause some really serious consequences, some really serious mental health consequences. And belonging even forms part of our culture model, the RX7, at Oblong. So all in all, academics and practitioners agree that belonging is a fundamental human motivation. Al, I'm sure there must be applications for this in marketing. Maybe it has a different name.
Al ElliottBelonging. It's such a deep psychological need to belong to something that that's why in marketing, um, a lot of, a lot of, um, products or services try and create communities around. The most famous one is PC versus Mac. Um, if you have a Mac, if you sit in a coffee shop like one of those knobheads and you open your Mac and it displays, it illuminates the Apple at the back. The, the reason you're doing that and you're not doing it with a shitty Dell— sorry, Leanne, you have a shitty Dell— but the reason you're doing that is because you belong to the Apple crew. You know that opening that up, if you have this product, you will belong. So we know in marketing terms that belonging sells, shifts product, uh, but also there's huge benefits for the individual and the business when you talk about belonging as part of a culture. Here's Farhana.
Leanne ElliottSo there are many, many benefits. For me to call out a few. So you have greater employee retention, the number of people leaving your organization significantly decreases. Employee satisfaction has gone from, an example I'll give you, 5.7 to 9.7 out of 10. Now, when you get happier employees, what do you get? You get greater productivity, you get greater outcomes, and you get phenomenal creativity going on. And then let's go beyond that. What you then start to become is a linchpin, is that, is that bar that everyone else is looking towards. So we start to set the standards. We do have to talk about the serious side of belonging. Not having belonging has been shown to cause major distress. Feeling like we don't belong has a damaging impact on our mental health. on our self-esteem, even our own sense of who we are, our identity. To explain more, here's Vahana. But what is most, um, disheartening is when we get things wrong as an organization. Workplace harassment, bullying, discrimination— it happens. Now, we can't shy away from it. It ruins people's lives, and it ruins people's lives to the point that they will never recover. But what we're talking about here It's real stories that are out there that is driving people to suicide, that is making them unemployable, ruins their careers. So this is no longer about, I want to come into work to feel good, to feel like I belong, and to feel like I'm included. It's more than that. It's about survival.
Al ElliottObviously, these are very extreme consequences of not belonging or getting belonging wrong. But there are lots of other adverse impacts a lack of belonging can have on our business and our culture.
Leanne ElliottIf they don't get it right, then it comes across as fake. But let's just imagine in that workplace, we believe this belonging. But when we enter that workplace, and we let some of those guards down, those, those layers down I talked about, it's almost like a slap in the face. And it's a realization of, I either I'm stuck here. And I say this from an employee perspective, because I see this and hear this day in, day out. And actually, there is no belonging. It's just words, or I've got to get myself out quick. And so I think the, the implications of when belonging really doesn't exist, or really belonging is not really understood, it can be catastrophic.
Al ElliottSo this leads us on to the 3rd emerging topic in DEI, Which is DEI washing. We've talked about wellness washing, we've talked about greenwashing. I think you can probably have a good guess what DEI washing is.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, DEI washing, like wellness washing, like greenwashing, is the result of token efforts. It's ticking boxes without any intention or any authenticity. So, you know, DEI washing can be things like, um, DEI training, anti-racism training, introducing quotas without any kind real intent about what that diversity is going to look like in the workforce. It's ticking boxes without any meaningful change to the organization or to organizational behavior. And the cure for DEIB washing is simple: authenticity. Here's Jess. We have seen through that is that then you bring in that authenticity, um, and that culture as well, because, you know, it's not enough just to have that representation on screen. I think the writers that are writing those stories, it's so important they have that lived experience. The people that are directing, that are producing those stories understand, and there's no kind of— I guess it reduces that sense of kind of othering as well. And so that authenticity is then through in and throughout the content. So then in terms of culture, you're creating an environment People can, you know, voice alternative opinions and share different thoughts and that to be welcome, but also ultimately the content that we're serving to our audiences is that much better. And, you know, we aim to be best in class for that. And I think the audience can tell whether— when it's tokenistic representation compared to that really authentic representation. And There's some really, really nice examples to share. And actually staying on that theme of children's content, we had a drama which we've just announced the second series of, A Kind of Spark, but that, you know, sort of TX'd earlier this year. And we had neurodivergent actors, neurodivergent writer, and neurodivergent production leadership as well, which meant that that authenticity and the story came across so beautifully. And then we saw the audience response, which was really powerful, where people were writing on social media about the impact that this show had on them, but not just children, adults as well. And many stories of people were getting a diagnosis of autism for the first time, which, you know, is life-changing, really. So that's just one example of many where we've seen that this way of looking at our content, not just what the audience can see, but also what's behind the camera, is so, so important to providing that authenticity. Jess went on to explain how the BBC uses diversity targets and authenticity to drive meaningful and lasting change. I think data is really, really important in DE&I initiatives. I think whilst it doesn't always give the full picture of what's going on. I think it's a really, really important tool to have to understand and give insight into an organization. So at the BBC, we have specific targets around our workforce data. We have targets around gender, 50%, targets around ethnicity, 20%, disability, 12%, and also socioeconomic diversity. 25%. And we look at these with a lot of rigor. We monitor these, we publish this data in our annual report. And we don't just look at all staff, we also look at the data specifically in leadership roles as well, influential roles, because I think that's really important as well to have in any organization regardless of size to make sure that that diversity is there in those leadership roles as well. And so that's one aspect of data that's really important in the work that I do and across the BBC. But also, I think what's important is looking at the diversity of the people that we work with, our suppliers. So for us at the BBC, that's independent production companies. So we have some commitments around the leadership of the production teams, um, that we work with, and also the companies and, uh, whether they're led, uh, by a representative and diverse, um, sort of individuals.
Al ElliottIf you have been on TikTok recently, you'll know that Gen Z are—
Leanne ElliottI'm sorry, have you been on TikTok recently?
Al ElliottI have not been on TikTok recently. TikTok is not for me. It's funny, I opened it up and I spent about an hour on it. I was like, I know this isn't for me. And you get to a certain point in your life You just go, this isn't for me, and I'm fine with that. I'm absolutely fine. But anyway, my point is Gen Z are all over this idea. And also, let's be honest, because, you know, I'm not quite boomer, I'm Gen X, but still I'm a bit like, oh, I don't understand these young generation. No, hang on a minute. Youth culture has this history of pushing for social change. You think about the baby boomers back in like the '60s, um, uh, then you got the hippies, and then, uh, you know, know, us in the, in the '90s, we had all the lad culture. I'm saying lad culture because it was called lad culture in the UK, um, you know, and, and then the— and music and everything. The whole point of this is that, that the youth drive social change, which is one of the reasons why Coolbeard decided to move from corporate into higher education. She saw that education is the key to addressing inequities in society.
Leanne ElliottAnd equity in society is very important. And education has got to be one of the fundamental building blocks, not just in this country, but globally, if we are thinking about equity and social justice for people wherever they are. So I thought the education piece is really critical here to really moving the dial on the inequities that we see in employment. Who gets to the top? Who gets to work Where, you know, who even gets to go to university, all of those things.
Al ElliottTrigger alert for Kulbir, because I asked her a very, very difficult question. I said, the whole point of higher education is to exclude the majority of people who don't get the grades. So that's the whole point. Oxford, Cambridge, you have to get a certain number of— a certain level of grades to get there. But then a university wants to be inclusive. So how is a university going to reconcile these 2 ideas?
Leanne ElliottI think that's a really kind of interesting dilemma actually. And I think that I believe that most people actually have great capability and great potential actually. And that's what we miss out on because we don't all have the same starting place, do we? We don't. We only have to look at where the state of education is in this country. Unless you go to a private school or a school which is very well equipped and resourced and has great teachers, you're kind of at a disadvantage even before you get to university. So I don't think it's down to universities to be able to— it's not really within their capability or capacity to be able to level out all of those things. So I think as a society, we need to be thinking about our education system and actually are we giving people a kind of a level playing field? Are we giving young people a level playing field to have that opportunity to apply to universities where they want to go and actually study? Now, the work that we do at Warwick in terms of widening participation is about addressing some of those issues, and we're trying to do as much as we possibly can through our widening participation strategy. And I'll just give you some examples of a program that was set up in partnership with another organization that works with young people helping to get them into university. So we actually set up with them in partnership and doing running lessons, after-school kind of classes for young kids from the age of 11 upwards up to A-level, and just kind of supporting, providing additional resource. additional teaching sessions to help them get into university that may not perhaps be coming from schools that they're actually already going to. We also look at the circumstances that people are applying to the university. So we try and make contextual offers, taking into account their background, that they may not have all the same advantages as some other students. So we are trying to adjust that level playing field as much as we I think Corbière explained this really brilliantly. I think it's more about access to opportunity, and that's what plays a vital role in, in social change. And, you know, as a business, you can play a role in this too, in terms of broadening your talent pool. We talked so much about that, didn't we, on EDI 101 episode? Um, Sonny Thompson particularly gave some really great advice on there, um, and Catherine as well, in terms of how you can, you know, make sure that you're can broaden your talent pool without falling into the trap of positive discrimination. So, if you want to learn more about that, go back to episode 45. So, while authenticity is the cure for DI washing, data-led practice is the prevention, which leads us nicely to our 4th topic today. Here's Corbie to explain more. Well, I think sometimes people talk about diversity, or they hear that word diversity, and they hear inclusion. And they think it's about doing soft, fluffy things. And soft, fluffy things are lovely to do, but actually it's not what always kind of really changes the culture. Talking about inclusion in a strategic sense is planning for it. If we really want to see things change, and this is about how we do things, and the how is about our behaviors, but it's also about— What we do. the systems and the processes that we set up in organizations, whether that's our policies, our procedures, our data, what data we collect, where we collect it, even how we signpost something, all has implications for how people interact with it. And for me, it's about thinking, how do we plan that into our business planning, how we approach So in the case of a university, it will be about how do we teach our students? What's the methodology we use? Our students aren't the same. They have different learning needs. And then the wraparound of that is our employees. So our staff, because they are the ones who make it happen in conjunction with our students. They are the ones who have that knowledge, the expertise that they're sharing, but also co-creating with our students.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you think about universities, there are researchers there, incredibly clever people. Amazing things happen on university campuses. And that's a big operation. So you have to plan it. I mean, if you're a business, you don't just kind of approach it by doing, oh, haphazardly, we'll just do this and we'll do that. You think about it, you plan it. What are you trying to achieve? And how are you going to do it? And how do you know it's—
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottthe right thing to do? How are you going to measure it? What does success look like? To me, being strategic about inclusion is about doing all of those things. Approach it like you would anything else in a business or a big institution.
Al ElliottI joke that Leanne's favorite word is data. But if you are in marketing, if you're in sales, if you're in finance, data is key. Data helps you make decisions. And we record loads and loads of data. In fact, There's probably some big companies out there who are in trouble for recording too much data, but we record loads and loads of data in these other functions, so why are we not really doing it with people? What gets measured gets monitored. Here's Jess from the BBC.
Leanne ElliottHaving, you know, sort of very clearly mapped out our workforce diversity targets, and I think, you know, being accountable to those as well has been really, really important in terms of driving representation. And so in this year's report, we saw that we met our gender target for the first time, that's 50%, which is fantastic. And that's, you know, a change that we're really proud of. And even in terms of ethnicity representation, we still have some work to do. We're looking at a target of 20%, and we are at 17%. And then a big area A focus for us recently has been around disability representation. There's been an acknowledgement that there needs to be more representation of disability in the industry, and we have made some, some really big commitments around that. So working with other broadcasters, there's the TV Access Project. We have BBC Elevate specifically looking at mid-level disabled talent. And, you know, we, in terms of our workforce disability numbers, we're at 9.4 on disability representation. Our target is 12. But also talking about kind of off screen as well, we've actually seen that number increase over recent years to 8.9 in 2022, 2023. So I guess what we're looking at is And it comes back to the data question, doesn't it? Like, we're using our data to really track progress and also make ourselves accountable. Obviously, that's one part of it. That's the quantitative data. The qualitative data is really, really important as well. And I think you need to have both to be able to understand what's going on in an organization. And so we regularly get that qualitative data as well, whether it's through staff surveys and getting feedback from our colleagues as well, which is really important.
Al ElliottNow, of course, we can't just collect data and say we've collected data because that's DEI washing. We're not just— this isn't just a tick box exercise. The whole point of this is to use the data to affect change. Here's Jess again.
Leanne ElliottI think we need the data because you can't change what you're not measuring. And, you know, it's trickier to measure how people feel. And, you know, sort of, I guess, but what we are using the data is looking at our joiners rates, looking at our leavers rates, but also being really specific as well. So I think it's very easy, and I've seen this in other organizations where sometimes people feel like diversity and inclusion is doing good.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottA colleague once referred to like these random acts of diversity and inclusion, sort of. And so people just feel like, oh yeah, we'll do a D&I initiative. But I think what we're doing here with the data is to actually look at, okay, where are, where are the interventions required? What are the initiatives we need to roll out? It's actually using the data to identify, you know, where the representation isn't where we want it to be, and then combining that with looking at, like, you know, how people feel in the workplace, how inclusively we run our meetings, what's the experience that people are having, are people happy at work, and that part of things. But I think the data is still really important, and to use it in a way that informs future initiatives, I think it's really important. Otherwise, you can't just take this blanket approach and and, um, feel good for doing a D&I initiative. I don't think that's what we're— what we should be trying to do. The thing about data is it can be quantitative, and I think that's what we think about when we think about data. We think about the numbers, but data can also be qualitative. It's about the feedback. Shelley, who is LGBTQ+ co-chair at the Bank of England, shared an example of how they are using qualitative data to make organizational policies more inclusive? So the first one that comes to my mind is, um, ways of working, like coming out of the pandemic. So I was on that project, uh, as one of the project leads, and, um, we went out to all the networks and was trying to understand why do you work from home and, and all that. Obviously there is the cost of living as well, um, and so you can be more inclusive to those that can't afford to live down in London and Essex. You can— so we have people that live in Newcastle, Birmingham, Glasgow, etc., and they only come down a couple of times a month. I remember someone going, I really want to work from home because I can wear my hair naturally. And I was like, wow. And that just really struck me. It was someone that identified as a person of colour, and they were like, I can actually wear my hair in an afro and natural and how it is in my culture. And I was just like, As a white female myself, I, I will— I don't have that. Like, I've never considered that. We all have bad headaches, but like, um, and it was just— that is important to that individual. And the fact that they never felt comfortable on wearing their hair like that in the office really blew me away. And I was like, okay, so— Because the more of ourselves we can bring to work, The better we do, don't we? Because we are not putting on a show. We're not feel like we're hiding something. I heard something really good yesterday at an event internal to the bank, and someone was like, it's important what you wear on your feet. So, if I'm wearing heels and I was like stiletto heels and my feet are hurting and it's already 10 o'clock, like, I'm like, I've got the whole day here. It's taking away me being comfortable, me being myself, me being the best thing I could be at work. In my special specialties, because I'm concentrating, I've got a bit of my head going, my feet hurt. Whereas if I was just in trainers and comfortable, I wouldn't ever be thinking that. And then I've got 100% focus on what I need to do, what I need to deliver. If people aren't bringing their full self to work, you're always hiding.
Al ElliottYou're always—
Leanne Elliottso if someone's not out, you're constantly watching what you're saying. So when someone goes, oh, how was your Oh, well, they've made that assumption that you have a wife and not a partner. And so do you come up with a charade? Do you correct them? And that goes through someone's head as a simple question, whereas you just went, what did you do at the weekend? Or how's your partner? I'm going, oh, I can just like, I could be myself a little bit more.
Al ElliottRegular listeners will know that while Leanne likes the word data, I like the word ROI. Well, technically that's 3 words, but I like the word ROI. I want to know, this is cool. And I want to be the best business owner leader in the world. I know I do, but I've got to make sure that I'm getting some kind of return on this investment. Because let's be honest, we're not going to do it if it's going to cost us thousands, we don't see anything back. But I think it's a little bit of a, I don't know, I feel a bit icky bringing up this idea of ROI when it's clearly the right thing to do. So I asked Farhana, can I ask about the business case? Can I ask about the ROI?
Leanne ElliottWe've always got to be thinking about ROI. So my, so my cutthroat answer is throw ROI out the window. And unfortunately, those business cases, those ROI proposals, we still need them because businesses still need to survive. But businesses can survive and go further with DEI at the core of that, at the center of that. So absolutely, those business cases, those return on investment assessments are absolutely needed. Did you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s— the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Leanne ElliottThe audio destination.
Al ElliottFor business. Seamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Leanne ElliottWe've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work.
Al ElliottAnd we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well. It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such a fascinating topic. It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottI think it comes back to the fact that the 2 things can coexist. You know, it's not a mutually exclusive thing. We can have, uh, you know, DEI-led organizations and make money. We can embed wellbeing and make money. It's not one or the other. And I think this is a really outdated mindset.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottmindset from, I don't know when, maybe even back to like the, the '20s and '30s when we thought, you know, that, that kind of getting the absolute most outta people until they fell over was the only way to have a successful business.
Al ElliottAnd I think this leads us nicely onto the culture-led DEI, which is the 5th point we're trying to make here. This means that in order for us to take DEI seriously, it has to actually become part of the culture. We know that culture evolves, it changes, it matures, and as leaders, we don't have to get it right From day one. Let's be honest, in your business, have you ever got anything right from day one? Probably not. And even if we do get it right, things will change. Look, we've talked a bit about TikTok, but 5 years ago, people weren't talking about this kind of thing openly, and now they are. The gen— the new generations are coming in. We've got Gen Alpha coming in in about 15 years' time into the workplace. We have no idea. They have no idea what's gonna be important to them. We've got no idea what's gonna be important to them. So we have to be adaptable.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWe have to ensure that whatever we're building is built into the culture, is part of the DNA of the culture. Now, you might think this is just a corporate issue because we've talked to huge organizations like Bank of England, with University of Warwick, we've got BBC in here. But as Coulby explains, it's not about these huge organizations. It's about you and your business.
Leanne ElliottDo you know, quite often people will ask me, what's the difference? It must be so different coming from the corporate sector or the public sector and coming to work in a university. And I kind of think about that and I think, actually, you're not that different. You know, people are people. Fundamentally, we're talking about behavior changes. We're talking about how do we view people? How do we treat them? How do we get the best out of them? And those are exactly the same things that people want to do in a university, in a school, In KPMG, in a big corporate, or in a media industry, we want to get the best out of people. We want to use our resources well. And in a university, you want our students to do well. We want our researchers, our professors to do well, to be innovative and to be creative. That's what it's about. And actually, those things aren't that different. We're talking about human behaviors. How do we view each other? How do we treat each other? Do we understand each other? Do we understand how we interact with different people and what we need to do differently for different people? I don't think it's that different. It really is about that continuous learning. And I think it's also important to remember that this isn't meant to be a comfortable process. Change is uncomfortable. As humans, we don't like it. I never quite trust the people who say they like change. I'm like, do you like change or you just like change that you can control? Which by its nature is not really change. Change triggers our fight and flight response. It makes us stressed. But as Corbie explains, being challenged as a leader is part of the process. So for me, it is about, um, understanding those differences and how do we bring that together in a workplace, because difference can also bring conflict. We don't understand someone, we don't understand something, it can take us out of our own comfort zone. So that challenges actually. So diversity and inclusion is a challenge and it's something you have to practice and learn. It doesn't necessarily just come naturally to you by osmosis. I mean, some people may be lucky and it does, and we are much more open to some things about people than we are about others. Some things about people are a challenge to us. And I think that's where we have to have the opportunity to question why that is. And actually, is it appropriate? And actually, what can we do differently where we don't feel so challenged by that, but actually we can be welcoming about that and be curious about it and understand what that means for that other person? So I think there is a challenge here for people. So it's not always soft and fluffy and nice. And it means you have to work at it.
Al ElliottShelley is from the Bank of England. I can't think of many organisations that are as old as, perhaps as staid as—
Leanne ElliottWhat other word can you use to describe the Bank of England?
Al ElliottYeah, sorry about that.
Leanne ElliottDo you know what I think about when I think about the Bank of England? I think about Mary Poppins, you know, at the end where they go into the—
Al ElliottYeah, exactly. It feels like an old institution. As Shelley points out, if the Bank of England can change, then you can change. It just requires intention.
Leanne ElliottOh, we are very diverse. So yeah, it's Obviously, you've got the old, and I even, when I was joining 12 years ago, I was very like, oh, it's going to be white males in suits. I'm going to be the only female. It's very much not like that. And we're getting better and better. I'm not saying we're there. We're like, and you'll see in our annual reports, our targets and where we are. But the fact that the employee networks exist, and we have 13 of them in the bank, it really is making a difference. And you can see, like, I remember there used to be only one DEI advisor. At the bank when I first started, and they weren't taken seriously. It was very much like, we have this because we have to. Now we've got, I think it's a 15-team strong in HR, let alone the DEI advisors that sit in each of the business areas as well. So we're very much taking it seriously. It's very important. Like, you would've seen the court review that we published on ethnicity back in 2020.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottLike, so there is, important work happening in the Bank on DEI, and we are very much— it's one of our strategic priorities as well. We can't make the decisions for the economy, for financial stability, for monetary analysis without having the diverse people in the Bank, because we are the Bank of United Kingdom. Therefore, we need to represent the people of United Kingdom. So, we have people that work up, down the country, different ethnicities, sexuality, gender, age, etc., etc. So we definitely need to represent what— otherwise we don't talk— when we talk and do the speeches and, and all our wonderful subjects, we're not representative and we won't take on board other people's opinions if we don't. Shelley stressed that any change, including those related to DEIB, need to align with the wider mission and vision of the organization. And I think this is really the key for SMEs, for any business, it's to create psychological safety because that's what people need to share their ideas and concerns in the first place. If those ideas can work, great, but the point is start with psychological safety. Here's Shelley. Like, no, no one's perfect, and, and we haven't— we're not successful with DE&I or, um, the employee networks without trial and error and, and, and try and, and trying out things listening to people, it might not always work out, or there's compromise as well. So it might be that one network may want to make some positive change, but we need to think of the wider mission and vision of that organization, and will it disrupt that, or does it empower it and celebrate it? There needs to be, unfortunately, a balance there. But that's not to say that they shouldn't be listened to, because everyone needs to compromise.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottas well. But just, you don't have to be perfect. As long as someone has a safe space and can have a voice, you're winning. Shelley also shared some critical advice for business leaders that are looking to embed DEI into their culture, or any intervention for that matter. Carve out time. If it's important to you, if it's important to your business, and it's important to your culture, make time for DEI. The thing with the employee networks, co-chairs, any one part of the network, you do it on top of your day job. So, um, as a co-chair, obviously I have a lot of responsibility. We've got 300, 400 people in our network, let alone the people that are watching our network, right? It's me and 2 others that are co-chairs, so it's good, um, even balance so we can pick and, um, help support each other. But we're doing it on top of our day jobs. Um, We are like, so I've got a busy role in HR, and then I'm trying to balance that to give time and commitment to, which I feel very strongly on, um, to the network. Um, and then it's, it's time balance. And so do I have to log on at weekend? No, because work-life balance, I need to set the right message, but also I need to get things done. Um, but also I'm not going to give that up because that's important and It, it, the fine balance of, uh, that is the main challenge, I would say. What was really good and what I would, a bit of advice I would give to any organization is look at what you're recognizing in your organization. So, as a performance manager, one of the key changes I made this year was in your objectives. If you are a co-chair, you can have half a day a week dedicated to being that co-chair and Them objectives obviously has to be signed off by your line manager. So it's like a, a contract between you and your line manager. Look, I'm gonna be spending about half a day a week being a co-chair. That's you committing and giving me time as well as I'm holding myself account. And, and that's something I introduced in January and it's really helped with the time balance.
Al ElliottThere is no silver bullet, which is good news and bad news. The bad news is you can't just go and say, right, here, implement these 6 things and then we're done. That is DEIB washing. But the good news is you don't have to get it right from the start. For example, if you start off and say, right, I'm gonna create an ERG group for women in our organization, that's a really good start. And then you can go into the nuance and say, right, we're gonna create an ERG for women of color. I don't think anyone expects you to get this right straight away.
Leanne ElliottWell said. Let's hear more from Corbière on the nuances of diversity and what you can do as a business leader as your approach, as your practice matures. I don't think we're trying to mesh people together in that we're trying to make them all the same and they've all got to kind of do the same things together. I think it's about understanding that people are different. And actually, our differences are what make us quite unique. And so what you do for, you know, a white straight woman, for example, may not be the same that you need to do for a woman who's white and gay, or who's of Indian origin like I am myself, or somebody who's had a very different kind of experience. All those things are gonna be different. You can't put women into the same bucket and say, we need to do the same thing for everybody. It's about understanding what those nuances are and actually what makes the difference to somebody being really happy where they are. And we know that when we are happy, we are much better at what we do. We are much better at actually engaging with other people. Whereas when we are pretty unhappy, I mean, we can only just think of it in ourselves, if we wake up in a grumpy mood, we're not really that great. We're not really that productive, and we're not really that nice to other people or get the best out of them.
Al ElliottWell, I hope that we've covered everything you wanted us to cover. If we haven't, let us know.
Leanne ElliottWe're on LinkedIn.
Al ElliottYou've got all our contact details in the show notes. We'd love to answer your questions. Let's just quickly recap about the 5 areas that we talked about today. The first one was allyship. The second one was belonging. Then we went on to DEI washing. Just be careful you don't fall down that road. And then we went into data-led DEI, and finally we talked about culture-led DEI. That's ingraining it in your culture.
Leanne ElliottYeah, a really interesting, interesting episode, I think. Interesting areas of, of DEIB that we've now learned that are deepening, that are advancing and evolving. Um, and I think a really nice follow-up to our first episode, um, EDI 101. So yeah, thank you, huge thank you to all of our guests that have helped put this together. To Shelley O'Connor from the Bank of England.
Al ElliottThank you to Kulbir Sergal from the University of Warwick.
Leanne ElliottTo Jessica Shibley from the BBC.
Al ElliottAnd finally to Farhana Qoodes.
Leanne ElliottNext week we are bringing you a masterclass in workplace culture and wellbeing with leaders from quite simply some of the biggest and most successful organisations in the world. including Mars, L'Oréal, and the NHS. We will see you then.
Al ElliottBye-bye for now. Bye. We do it again because I keep doing this.
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