Episode 73 · 11 January 2024 · 33:46
Jodie Hill: How My Mental Breakdown Sparked a Movement for Healthier Law Firms
Jodie Hill: How My Mental Breakdown Sparked a Movement for Healthier Law Firms
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Intro: Meeting Jodie Hill at the Mad World Summit
Jodie's Breakdown: 'I had a mental breakdown after 3 or 4 years'
interview#mental-breakdown#lawyer#burnout
The Legal Industry's Archaic Culture
interview#legal-industry#culture#uk
The Pivot: 'All I knew how to do was be a lawyer'
interview#career-change#lawyer#identity
Doing Things Differently: Foundations of Thrive Law
interview#law-firm#founder#culture-change
The SRA's New Principles on Wellbeing and Anti-Discrimination
Leanne's 91-Second Explainer: What is a 360 Review?
interview#360-review#feedback#hr
The Old School Way vs. The New Way
interview#traditional#modern#workplace
Reasonable Adjustments and Working Smart
Integrating AI into Service Delivery
interview#ai#legal-tech#innovation
Age Diversity at Thrive Law
interview#age-diversity#workforce#inclusion
A New Way to Assess Workplace Mental Health
interview#mental-health#assessment#adhd
'I Wasn't Listening to the Signs' — Advice to Her Younger Self
interview#self-awareness#advice#reflection
'I'm an Absolute Workaholic' — The ADHD Entrepreneur's Reality
interview#workaholic#adhd#entrepreneur
How to Connect with Jodie and Thrive Law
interview#contact#law-firm#resources
Show notes
How My Mental Breakdown Sparked a Movement for Healthier Law Firms — Jodie Hill's Story
Founder Story — Al Elliott sits down with Jodie Hill, the neurodivergent solicitor, ED&I consultant, and campaigner who turned her 2017 mental breakdown into what she now calls her "mental breakthrough" — founding Thrive Law, the first UK law firm built with wellbeing and mental health at its very core.
Jodie's story is a powerful testimony to how personal adversity can lead to transformative change in an industry famously resistant to it. After years in high-pressure legal environments that pushed her to breaking point, Jodie walked away from everything she knew — and built something radically different.
In this warm and wide-ranging conversation, Al and Leanne unpack Jodie's journey: the "just do your job" culture that nearly broke her, the moment she realised her only skill was being a lawyer (so she'd have to do it differently), and how Thrive Law is proving that a law firm can be both commercially successful and psychologically safe.
They also dig into the practical stuff — 360 reviews, reasonable adjustments, the SRA's new wellbeing principles, and why the "fluffy stuff" isn't just for the young folk. Plus, a recurring segment where Leanne explains a workplace concept in under 90 seconds (with a timer, obviously).
Key Moments
The breakdown that became a breakthrough. Jodie was a few years into her legal career when it all caught up with her. The pressure, the culture, the relentless "just do your job" mentality — it broke her. But in that breakdown, she found clarity: the legal profession needed to change, and she was going to be the one to change it.
Thrive Law — a different kind of firm. Founded in 2018, Thrive Law was the first UK law firm built with wellbeing and mental health at its heart. No presenteeism. No "just do your job." Instead: 360 reviews, reasonable adjustments for everyone, and a genuine commitment to psychological safety.
The SRA is finally catching up. The Solicitors Regulation Authority has published new principles putting wellbeing and anti-discrimination at the centre of legal practice. Jodie was ahead of the curve — and now the regulator is following her lead.
You can't pour from an empty cup. Jodie's advice to her younger self (and to all of us): take the breaks. She wasn't listening to the signs, and it cost her. As she says, "We all need the breaks."
Top 3 Takeaways
- Your low point can be your launchpad. Jodie's breakdown wasn't the end of her career — it was the beginning of something better. The hardest moments can reframe what's possible.
- Culture isn't "fluffy" — it's foundational. Thrive Law proves that a psychologically safe workplace can be commercially successful. Wellbeing isn't a perk; it's a business strategy.
- Reasonable adjustments should be for everyone. Instead of singling people out, embed flexibility and support into your culture so everyone benefits — no labels required.
Resources & Support
Connect with Jodie Hill:
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jodie-hill-lawyer
More Founder Stories from Truth, Lies & Work:
- Maneesh K Goyal: How 9/11 Inspired a New American Dream — Listen on Spotify
- Chris Savage: Why Wistia Chose Workplace Culture Over Quick Profits — Listen on Spotify
- Oliver Yonchev: How the Art of Possible is Creating a Culture of Success at Flight Story — Listen on Spotify
Support for legal professionals:
- LawCare (UK): Free, independent and confidential helpline — 0800 279 6888
- American Bar Association: Mental health resources including Lawyer Assistance Programs — americanbar.org
General mental health support:
- Mind: mind.org.uk/information-support
- Samaritans (UK): Free 24/7 — call 116 123 or email jo@samaritans.org
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Jodie HillNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Jodie HillA lot of them will think, well, I had to work really hard to get to that point, so hell no, you're not having the, the changes. Plus I'm thinking, well, I'm equity now, so I'm not spending that money on you guys because I want to get my cash out.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the award-winning Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist and an award-winning co-host.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner and an award-winning business podcast co-host.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science, people, and create amazing workplace cultures. Happy 2024, everyone. I know we've said that before, but you may have gathered from our last episode It was recorded ahead of time. So one, we didn't die in a horrible accident. Great news. 2, happy New Year again. And 3, we won some awards over the break.
Al ElliottWe did. We did. We were driving. We, we live in Bosnia and Herzegovina near Mostar, as, as I think we might have said before. So we drove back to the UK with the dog and, uh, we went back for Christmas. We were maybe in, I think Austria. You just, we stopped for a coffee and then you were like, Al, we've won an award.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I did.
Jodie HillI did.
Leanne ElliottWe won the Positive Change Podcast Award categories for best psychology podcast, and best co-hosts, family in brackets. Obviously, Al and I aren't related, but you know what, you know what it means.
Al ElliottThat would be a twist, wouldn't it? So yeah, so we're really, really excited about that. And thank you so much for the people who arranged those awards and who gave them to us, which was quite rightly the right choice. So we are back here and we're feeling a little bit more refreshed. As I said, we went to the UK, we were away for I think we worked it out. I was away for like 17 nights and spent and slept in 14 different beds. It was a bit hectic. Then we came back and we just, from New Year to now, we've just had a quiet like week. Just, we feel a lot more invigorated. We feel like we've taken our own advice here a little bit. You know, the whole burnout thing. And we were like, yeah, yeah, burnout. We talked a lot about last year, but I dunno about you, Lee, but I was starting to feel a little bit burned out towards December when we were struggling to get all these episodes done. And I was just like, oh, this bloody podcast. But back Excited about it. We never really fell out of love with the podcast. I think I just got a bit burnt out, a bit grumpy.
Leanne ElliottI think that just happens towards the end of the year, doesn't it? And we had a really busy run-up to it as well. If you're a regular listener, you'll know that last year was just a bit nuts. Um, but we are really excited. We're very excited about the guests we're bringing you. We're very excited about the content that we're going to be focusing on in 2024. It has sparked some new ideas. You might be some Seeing something slightly new from us over the next few weeks. No spoilers, um, but yeah, keep an eye out. We will— might look all a bit different in a few weeks' time.
Al ElliottMaybe. Talking of looking a bit differently, I, I ate all the cheese that the UK had to offer, and so now I'm a little bit concerned that my shirt— I put it on today and I was like, has this shrunk in the wash? No, no, I'm just— I've got— I've done the opposite of shrinking. So if you are looking at this and worried about how tight this is, not, not meant to be this tight. Anyway, moving on.
Leanne ElliottIt looks good.
Al ElliottThank you very much. Luckily it's just from the boobs upwards for me. You don't want to see my cheese belly. Anyway, so we are back here. So we're back with another founder story, but this one is a little bit different. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo at the Mad World Summit in October, Al sat down with a pretty extraordinary woman who is revolutionising the legal industry. She's got 32,000 followers on LinkedIn, 21,000 on Instagram. She's a regular on TV and radio. She has her own YouTube channel, and back in 2018, she quit her job and launched a brand new type of law firm where she obsesses about workplace culture, health, and wellbeing. Our guest today is the fabulous Jodie Hill from Thrive Law.
Al ElliottYeah, the interview I did with Jodie was so interesting, and despite her being like a genuine bona fide celebrity, She's really down to earth and just really honest. I mean, she she told me she started from very humble beginnings as a and this is her self-confessed working class family, and then bucked the trend in her family by following the traditional path of law. So she became a barrister, which I think is those people who stand in courtrooms with their with their fingers behind their waistcoats going "I put it to you, sir," and then a solicitor, which is a bit more of the the people behind the paperwork and and lawsuits and all that kind of thing. And then she ended up working for a sizable company. Sorry for my really weird translations. I was just thinking for our for our American listeners, I think they call them slightly different, like attorneys, and there might be a slight difference there. So if you know the actual difference, then drop on LinkedIn and let us know. So at this point, she's working for this great company, she's got everything. You'd think she'd had it all, but here's Jo to explain why that certainly was not the case.
Jodie HillWhen I became a solicitor, I was probably working for a couple of years, maybe 3 or 4 years, and had a mental breakdown. And the workplace that I was in really wasn't as supportive as perhaps one would hope, um, to put it politely. And also just trying to manage, you know, a mental health condition in a high-achieving environment, in perfectionism, and all of the traits that lawyers tend to have. Um, you know, I have PTSD, anxiety, I was struggling with insomnia, and, you know, balancing all of that with everything, with all your targets, was, was impossible. So, I actually left my job. Um, I had nothing to go to, but I just took the view that The environment wasn't conducive to a recovery for me, and I was in a really, really dark place.
Leanne ElliottCertainly in the UK, and I think in many other countries around the world as well, the legal industry and profession has a few major problems. I mean, first of all, it is quite archaic. The structure is old-fashioned, and it's often led by white, middle-class, straight, boomer-aged owners that are usually called partners in a law firm. And they're of the opinion, well, we've always done it this way, So why change now? Secondly, when it comes to high-pressure and target-driven law work like litigation, you know, often the culture can have a lot of toxic traits. They're hypercompetitive, or rather cutthroat. Long working hours are part of the deal. We've all seen Harvey Specter on Suits— not exactly the kind of boss who you'd sit down and ask if you're okay. God damn it! Just do your job! Is the phrase that is used most often. Great drinking game. Drink responsibly, kids. But TV is exaggerated, right? It's not really like that. Well, according to some research from the Law Society's Junior Lawyers Division, more than 90% of junior lawyers say they feel stressed and under pressure at work, with more than a quarter describing stress levels as severe or extreme. In these hypercompetitive environments, partners or leaders of these law firms will often tolerate what are called toxic superstars like Harvey because they contribute enormous fees to the firm. This means that in many, many cases, creating a workplace culture that supports individual needs and performance and well-being is pretty far down the priority list.
Al ElliottAnd this is unfortunately very common in the industry. So after Jodi left, she had a problem. if she started a job with another firm, was anything really gonna change?
Jodie HillWell, actually, all I knew how to do was be a lawyer. So I was like, well, I'm gonna have to be a lawyer somewhere. But I was applying to firms and I was just thinking, this is all a load of shit. Like, I can't work for any of these firms because I'm gonna go exactly where I was 6 months ago. So I took the view that, um, you know, in a moment of madness, that's what you do after you've had a breakdown, set my own law firm up. So I did that. And a year, it was probably about a year after the breakdown, but I did it with the view of I wanted to create a psychologically safe place for me. Me to be, quite selfishly, but also to create something that I suppose would attract clients that would share those values from an employment law perspective. So, we're working with people who care about people and also staff, you know, people that share those values and aren't going to push me to the point of breakdown again. So, you know, you've got that supportive environment and creating that culture. So, so yeah, so Thrive was born 5 years ago and we've got a team of about 20 people across the UK now.
Leanne ElliottThis is the story of almost any founder, I think. Get experience in the industry, notice what could be done differently, and start your own business, your own company, with those values in mind. But in Jodie's case, she really did have a lot working against her.
Jodie HillSo, when I set the firm up, I was 29 and a female with tattoos and from a very working-class family. So, you know, nobody in my family's got any connections with law, and there were— there was a lot of kickback, like, oh, she's just on social media and TV all the time, she's not really doing any law. And since then, we've been featured by the Law Society, the SRA, ACAS, um, literally the highest level for employment law. And I just think that, you know, I could have— I suppose at that point I could have taken too many hits because I just had the breakdown, but I was just like, well, I haven't got anything to lose here. I know what I'm saying makes sense because I've actually been the person who had the breakdown, so I know this makes sense. Um, and I suppose going through that process was like, Well, I've got nothing to lose, so I'm gonna crack on. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do me, stay in my lane. And actually it's just built momentum over the years. So we're still a small company, we've still only got 20, 20 people working for us, but having that level of impact across the UK when it's such a small company is just, that for me is just, I'm, I'm really proud of that. I was really lucky that I got to go to a, I got a scholarship to go to a boarding school because my family lived abroad, um, and I moved schools 3 times in 3 countries in 1 year. And my parents took the view that that was really disruptive when I was in senior school. So, I managed to get a scholarship to go to a boarding school near York, and that just opened my eyes to things that I just didn't know existed. And yeah, I mean, in fact, nobody even in my school did law. Nobody did. It was just me in my year. And actually, going to be a barrister as well, that's what I wanted. That's the most traditional route. I was like, yeah, I'll get them wigs and gowns. That sounds great. But I think, yeah, I mean, obviously, I cross-qualified, became a solicitor in the end, but That whole process, I wouldn't have changed any of it because I learned so much on each part of that journey. And I really respect each part of that journey, even though parts of it were really difficult, as in like the breakdown, for example. But if I hadn't had that breakdown, I would never have set— I would never have gone and left a firm and set up on my own. Hell no. But when you've lost everything, you have nothing to lose.
Al ElliottOne of the foundations that Jodie insisted on when she started Thrive Law was to do things a little bit differently. But in the UK, law firms are regulated by something called the Law Society. Leanne mentioned it a little earlier. So there can be strict guidelines that you have to follow. Plus, law is not exactly the most progressive of industries. But Jodie's been campaigning for a better culture in law firms, and it seems to be finally working.
Jodie HillWell, interestingly, the SRA have just published some new principles that basically put wellbeing and anti-discrimination principles within our regulatory requirements. It's actually only just come out. I'm speaking at a conference next week about it. But when I set up, it was very much, I suppose it was a nice to have. It was definitely not the priority in a lot of firms. And to be fair, I don't think it is a priority for a lot of firms still, because you can, in the models that they have, they make more money by making people work more hours because people are paid by the hour. So, what I wanted to do was create something that was different in the sense of the way that we charge, the hours that we work, where we work, how we work, what we wear, every single thing. for me was about showing up as our true self and going, actually, this is who we are and what we want to do and how we want to do it. And just trying new things, integrating tech, looking at different pricing models, telling our staff they can work from different countries. You know, just thinking about how can we be more, how can we be more innovative with the way that we work and then educating our clients to do the same thing. So kind of passing on that knowledge.
Leanne ElliottLet's talk about making money for a second. I think some people Might think— I mean, I say some people, not you, dear listener, because you know ours and you know the deal. But I think some people might think that you can't have a great culture and also make money, or make bank as the kids say. You know, profit and purpose aren't often things that are considered one of the same. Litigators, so the lawyers who we usually see on the TV suing someone or fighting for compensation can bring in huge amounts of money for law firms. And the worst-kept secret in traditional law firms is that they love to bill you for every minute they spend on your case. So this is generally why a lot of junior partners will put up with bullying or harassment, discrimination, toxic cultures, and 80-hour work week, because one day they'll become the partner and they'll be rewarded with a big fat check every year. And the cycle of abuse and trauma continues. So, I wanted to know how Jodi was doing things differently, but still managing to create a profitable business.
Jodie HillUltimately, there are different types of lawyers, and a lot of the ones that really want to win tend to be litigators. So, we do litigation, but we do it in a different way. So, often what happens is you'll have litigators who are, you know, I absolutely need to win, I'll do anything to win, whereas, you know, Lawyers actually do, yes, of course you want to win for your client, but you do have a duty of care to your client to act in their best interests as well, which might include trying to settle rather than winning. So again, it's that mindset of, you know, taking a step back and doing what's, what, what the best thing is for, for the individual. But at Thrive, for us, it's really about attracting people whose values are aligned with ours.
Leanne ElliottIn fact, Jodie's employees don't get bonuses in the usual way.
Jodie HillWe have behaviours that are aligned with our values, which the team have all agreed, and we mark each other every month on a 3-star review on a scale of 1 to 4, and you cannot get a bonus at Thrive unless you score a 3 or above. And the reason for that is, I don't care if you bill £1 million, if you are not a team player and you don't have all of those values and behaviours at a consistently high level, then I don't want that toxic biller. They can leave. And so, there's a re— for me, there's real power in that from a team perspective, because what we're doing is breeding positive behaviours rather than going, well, you know, you can just be a dick and, and bill loads of money and you can do what you want, because they get that a lot in the big firms because they go, oh, well, you know, he can just come in whenever he wants because he brings all the clients in. So, for me, that was really important to create that culture. I had to lead by example and actually, you know, put those things in place and get the team involved in that and bought into the whole process of understanding why it's important to, to have those behaviours and what those behaviours actually are that we agree they are.
Al ElliottSo, just for a quick second, Leo, Jodie mentioned 360 reviews there, 360 degrees, I'm guessing. Can you give us the 90-second summary of what a 360 review is for anyone who's not heard of this before?
Leanne ElliottYes, set the timer, Al.
Al ElliottOkay, right, start.
Leanne ElliottA 360 review is a type of performance evaluation method or tool. Traditionally, performance reviews, pretty one-dimensional, typically involving rating yourself, how you think you're performing at work, and being rated and reviewed by your direct supervisor or your line manager. The issue with this is that as humans, we can be a bit rubbish at being objective a lot of the time. We have blind spots, blind spots around our own performance and the performance of others. So traditional performance reviews can be a bit limited and potentially biased. In contrast, 360 performance review will seek feedback from, from the individual on their performance and then from their direct supervisor or their line manager and their own direct reports. and their peers and their key stakeholders and their customers. The point is to give a more holistic and balanced view of performance, and gaining insights into how our behaviour is perceived by others can lead to improved self-awareness. If we are aware of our faults, we can effectively develop our own capability and adopt behaviours that positively impact and influence our colleagues. I'll stop the timer.
Al ElliottBing! That was 91 seconds. Very well done.
Leanne ElliottGoddammit!
Al ElliottJust do your job, Leanne. Do your goddamn job. You did very well there. So all this sounds lovely, but is there a business case? Why, why did law firms do it the old way anyway? Do clients care how their law firm is run?
Jodie HillI think the, the old school way of, of, I mean, don't get me wrong, we still, we still have clients who want hourly, want things on hourly rate, and we've still got that ability, but we don't have the billable hours process of monitoring our staff. So yeah, I think, I think the ability to be able to just contact your lawyer direct on WhatsApp, the ability to, you know, just have a conversation and get to know the people that you're working with is, for me, it's all about making it like a personal service. Like, we are all humans in this. Like, it's not, we're not robots, we're not people that you can just shout at. And I've had that in previous firms where I've been asked to, you know, go sack that pregnant woman, go and tell that person who's got mental health problem, let's get rid of them, because that's the values of that organisation and that's how they treat their people. Well, we don't have clients who ask us to do that. Because they wouldn't ask us because they know that's not what we stand for. And that's what I really love about the— I suppose me being this brutal about how these things are important has meant that we do attract people who we want to work with, which is really nice.
Leanne ElliottClearly, Juridy is building a firm where culture and wellbeing is a priority. So what can other law firms do to replicate this kind of success?
Jodie HillSo I think the easiest one is flexibility around hours and location because If people are struggling, whether it's mental or physical health, giving anybody flexibility on the days when they're struggling more is obviously going to help them. So, and it's just so easy to do, like, just trust your staff, trust that they'll get on with their work and allow that flexibility. So, as I said before, we, you know, our staff can work from anywhere, but obviously there's an air of communication. Like, we, we don't just do what we want and don't talk to anybody, but there's, there is that trust. So, if we know we're not going to be available, we're logging off early, we let everybody know. And so, kind of embedding that into your culture is a really, really helpful way to give adjustments to everybody without it being this formal process of, oh, you know, you have to apply here and you have to see a manager and you have to get a doctor's note. It just allows for everybody to be their best self.
Al ElliottSo, what Jodi's describing there is the idea of reasonable adjustments. Now, unfortunately, it's become somewhat of a buzzword recently, but actually, it's about being just a decent leader and genuinely caring about the wellbeing of your team. Jodie touched on the idea of working from anywhere there, hybrid or remote. Now, there can't be too many law firms who embrace remote working as much as Jodie does, so I asked her what a remote-first law firm actually looks like.
Jodie HillWell, you probably won't see many people in our office because we work smart. So a lot of people work remotely. We work when and where we want, so we're not— people work different days, different hours, depending on what they're contracted to, but even if you're contracted 9 till 5, Monday to Friday, you can work whatever hours you want, provided work gets done. So, we have policies around, you know, people can work abroad for a month, and, you know, one of our team's just gone to India for a month to an Indian festival, and worked remotely for half of it, and half of it has gone to visit family. So, really, what the difference you'll notice is very casual. Everyone's really down to earth. It might not be anyone in the office if you turned up. You'd have to book an appointment. And actually, It's just a, it's just a really relaxed atmosphere. And I think when I've worked in other firms, and I've worked in big and small firms, there's a real tenseness when you go in and everybody's got their head down. And it's, it's like, I don't know, it's almost like they're, because they're on the clock, they don't want to look up. And there isn't, there isn't that at Thrive, which is really nice.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business Seamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Al ElliottIt is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such a fascinating topic. It's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Keep that in.
Al ElliottAnd as a quick aside, regular listeners will know I'm very bullish on AI. Unsurprisingly, Jodie feels the same.
Jodie HillBut what I would really like to, to see is we are, we are integrating AI into the, the service delivery, trying to, you know, not necessarily do more work and work more hours. It's more about how can we be more profitable so the team don't have to work as many hours, and how can we make their life easier and also our customers' lives easier in terms of accessing our support? So, really looking at how we can integrate tech into the business.
Leanne ElliottSo, if you've heard any of the episodes we've done before, you'll know that I am pretty passionate about helping leaders create great places to work, but that does require a change of mindset at the highest of levels, at senior leaders, with business owners, with boards, and that can be hard. I wanted to know what Jodie thought was a reason that more law firms aren't doing this.
Jodie HillSo, I, I think part of it is to change culture, and to change the processes that these big firms have got in place is, is, is going to take forever, you know. And you've also got the fact that there's just me. I'm the only director and shareholder. I can make quick decisions. I make decisions based on what's right for me and my team. So, we're agile. We're able to make those those decisions, and I'm ADHD, so I'm quite impulsive, so I can do that. Whereas if you've got a partnership model, you've got 100 partners in 100 countries, you know, getting those changes is just, it's nigh on impossible. Plus, a lot of them will think, well, I had to work really hard to get to that point, so hell no, you are not having the changes. Plus, I'm thinking, well, I'm equity now, so I'm not spending that money on you guys, 'cause I wanna get my cash out. So, there is this mindset of, you know, until these people at the top, leave those organisations. I just don't see a lot of them genuinely changing for the better. There's still practices like billable hours in place in so many firms, and it's just not conducive to positive mental health.
Al ElliottSo the boomers are to blame again. I'm half joking, but they're actual— there are actual boomers of boomer age, and then there are people of my generation, and all our mentors and former bosses were boomers. So that means we run the risk of thinking that this kind of And I'm gonna use the word fluffiness for, uh, because I've just won the money.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Trigger warning.
Al ElliottTrigger warning. But this means we run the risk of thinking this kind of fluffiness is just for the young folks. So Jodie really surprised me when she explained that her firm isn't full of TikTok kids who just are demanding a better workplace.
Jodie HillIt's a bit of a mixture. The, um, so we've got probably about 50% over the age of 30, um, and 50% under. So yeah, it's a bit of a mixture, to be honest. Um, but I'd say as well, we've got people who've come and joined us from big firms, got quite a lot of people that are older than me. So I'm 35. We've got a lot of people that are way into their 40s and early 50s who, who have worked at the big firms and come as consultants, for example. So, we've got a mixture of self-employed and employed people, depending on how they want to work. And so, that gives us the breadth and the depth of experience from, you know, well, all across the country. And that's why we've got people in London, in Exeter and Devon, and up in Leeds and Yorkshire.
Leanne ElliottBravo, Jodie! What an incredible woman you really are. I'd expect Jodie to want to keep all this a secret, but that could not be further from the truth.
Jodie HillI would absolutely love others to follow what we're doing, and that's why I've been working, well, not just with the government, but with other organisations, helping them do what we do. So, I've worked with other law firms. In fact, when some of the really big law firms go, knock, knock, knock, please can you tell us how you did that? That's kind of a bit of a pinch-me moment because you're thinking, well, actually, they're actually listening to me. They're seeing that it's valuable to invest in their people. Whether they affect the change remains to be seen because it takes time. But at the moment, I'm also working with the government on changing the law. And one of the things that I really do think we need to do is update the Health and Safety Act on the basis of, you know, we've got all of this supportive legislation on this side for physical health when it comes to secondary legislation, but there's nothing when it comes to wellbeing and mental health other than there's a duty of care. That's it. So, What I've been looking at is creating a similar, similar way to how physical health is assessed through risk assessments, which have recommendations for how you would then support your team with mental health and wellbeing. And that's something I know the bill's being read again in November that we're working on to try and effect that positive change. And I'm just gonna draw down all my experience from the firm and the, and the work that we've been doing to try and create a framework that will be free for everybody to use. so that they can do this as well, because it is, it isn't as difficult as everybody's saying. I think people are just very resistant to change.
Al ElliottIn fact, and you can properly see the natural ADHD entrepreneur coming out through here in Jodie. Jodie's developed an entirely new income stream from this, and that should be an inspiration to you too, because if you get this right, people in your industry will actually pay you to help implement the changes in their own business.
Jodie HillAnd yeah, and just continue to grow and attract people that, that share those values. Um, I'm doing a lot of work in the neurodiversity space as well. And I'd like to see the firm leading more with that. What we have seen over the last 2 years is the amount of training requests that we get. I mean, it's about 50% of our business now. So that part of the business is just flying. Obviously, the legal stuff is growing at the same rate, is growing at a very steady rate. But this has just come from, you know, obviously speaking at lots of places and people just seeing, well, actually, if we follow these steps, it's going to have the positive impact. So, Lots of people go, oh, well, you're a lawyer, don't you want to wait for it to go wrong and you can just pick up all the— because that's where lawyers make their money, isn't it? But actually, it's not, because we've got the knowledge of how we could prevent these things from happening. So, let's use that knowledge and experience to educate people, to educate employers and managers, and try to effect lasting change rather than this kind of reactive support that a lot of firms give.
Leanne ElliottSo, before we wrap up, I wanted to revisit the period in Jodie's life when she knew things weren't quite right. What are some of the signs that you're struggling as a leader, or that your workplace needs to change?
Jodie HillReally unfortunate in that I wasn't self-aware enough. So, one of the things that I would recommend everybody does is start to journal and try to be more aware of their emotions, their behaviours, and reflecting on, like, things that are happening in their life. And even if it's just a minute a day, that will help you to start to see patterns. And I wish I'd known this before, because I got to a point where I nearly wasn't here. So, you know, knowing that now, I'm quite strict with my self-care, my journaling, and the way that I communicate. And I still have therapy now. I still have it because I actually really enjoy therapy because I'm learning lots about myself still. But in terms of the behaviours and the signs, usually it's a change in behaviour. So if you are a really extroverted person and then you start withdrawing, for example, um, the other way around might be you're really introverted and you start like blurting things out. but also feeling more tired, less sociable, that type of thing. And I just found that I was getting really agitated really easily. Everything was annoying me. I was really demotivated. And I got to the point where I didn't wanna leave the house. And I was never, I've always been, I've always been someone that's quite outgoing and, you know, will crack on with anything. Even if I've got flu, I don't have a sick day. I'll crack on. You know, it's not, never a problem. But I think that part, that actually was part of the problem. Because I wasn't listening to the signs. So take the breaks when you need them. Like, we all need the breaks. And I have a rule now, I go somewhere every month now. And people are like, that's really extra. And I'm like, well, it's not really extra. It's, that's how I, that's how I stay alive. That's how I thrive. Because if I, and it's only, it might only be a weekend here or something, but getting out of my routine and making sure that I've got that time to reflect is just so important.
Al ElliottAnd to anyone who's listening who are thinking, But I love work. I'm absolutely fine. Thank you very much. Jodie has a message for you.
Jodie HillI'm an absolute workaholic. I know that I am. I'm ADHD. I'm, I'm definitely on that spectrum of I could work every single day 'cause I just love what I do, which sounds really sad, but it's true. And the reality is, if you are in that mindset, you, you know, you could, I could end up in burnout really quickly. And so I, I appreciate the personality type that I am. I'm always up and down, but I do have these, these times blocked out. So whether it's to go to a spa or yoga or surf. I've just got back off a surf and yoga retreat, and I, I know that if I've got these things blocked, booked in my diary and blocked out, then I'm going to avoid that burnout because I know that I've got that time. So that works for me. Someone else, you tell them to surf, they might be like, that's gonna make me have a panic attack. So it's about finding what's right for you. And actually, last year I actually made my own journal and sell it on Amazon because I found that all the journals I was using, I was getting 3 or 4 weeks in and I was getting bored. So I just mixed it up. So it's like a one-pager and it's different questions, different areas to focus on. And that for me obviously helped, helped me. And then I've given that to my staff and then they were like, you should just sell this. So yeah, so I've— so I now sell those on Amazon and actually that's a really great way for me to continue to share that message.
Al ElliottSo there you have it. If you are a law firm and you know your workplace has to change, then you can contact Jodie using the links The show notes. If you're interested in Jodie's journal, we'll link to that too, and we'll also pop on all of her social media accounts where you can go and see some amazing stuff that she's posting across the socials.
Leanne ElliottYeah, really is an incredible entrepreneur, business owner, leader to follow, and an awesome business to follow as well. Definitely do check it out. If there are any law professionals listening who maybe feel their mental health is being impacted by a toxic work environment, there is help available. If you are in the UK, Lawcare is a free, independent, and confidential helpline that provides a space to talk about anything that may be worrying you. You can call them on 0800 279 6888. The American Bar Association, to our friends over the pond, also provide a host of mental health resources including Lawyer Assistance Programs or LAPs. They provide confidential services and support to judges, lawyers, and law students who are facing mental health or substance abuse issues. We will leave a link in the show notes.
Al ElliottSo I think that's the end of another Founder episode. Well, it is the end of another Founder episode, but it was— honestly, if you're interested at all in workplace culture, even if it's not law, go check out Jodie. She is just a force to be reckoned with. She is so passionate about everything and so honest. Definitely go and subscribe to her. Um, I We, we would say who we got next week, but we want to keep it a secret, um, which actually means we haven't decided between 2 people whether we got— insider trick there. Also, another insider secret is that, um, I can't— I don't think I remember how to edit these. So, uh, if you're watching this and there's a bit of a rough edit, it's probably because I've forgotten exactly how we edit this.
Leanne ElliottThere are people watching this?
Jodie HillWhat?
Al ElliottWell, there's 19 people on YouTube watched the last one. Let's hope that in 2025 we'll have a few more than just a few hundred watches on our videos. But anyway, if you are listening to this and you haven't subscribed, click subscribe, do us a favor. And also just tell anyone who you think might be interested in us. We, we're on episode, what, 73 now, I think, are we?
Leanne ElliottI have no idea. I barely know what day it is.
Al ElliottAnd hopefully, hopefully you know by now that what we're trying to do here is just bring you some amazing guests. We have got some incredible people coming up soon, but again, can't tell you about that because of trade secrets and and other reasons. Anything else to add, Lee?
Leanne ElliottNo, all I'd add, get in touch. You know where we are. You'll find us on the LinkedIn, the Instagram. You will find us on the TOC as well. Uh, get in touch if there is something that you want us to be discussing on Truth and Lies. Let us know. We will pick up the topic and we will find some expert guests for you. Let us know. It's always nice to hear from listeners, um, and know what is gonna, gonna help you on your journey to being an awesome leader that creates awesome workplaces. So let us know, this is your podcast too.
Al ElliottYeah, so thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Bye-bye.
Leanne ElliottSo before we wrap up, I wanted to revisit the period— oh God, it's a bit upbeat, sorry.