Episode 76 · 1 February 2024 · 43:16
76: When to Say Goodbye: Ending a Partnership with Joe Fier
Featuring Joe Fier
76: When to Say Goodbye: Ending a Partnership with Joe Fier
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Intro and why Joe wanted a partner
The psychology of the entrepreneurial personality
interview#entrepreneurial-personality#psychology#entrepreneurship
How do you know when things aren't working?
interview#partnership#red-flags#business
When do you know the partnership should end?
interview#partnership#ending#business
The 'having a kid to save the marriage' trap
interview#partnership#marriage#trap
How Joe told Matt — the 3-hour Discord message
interview#communication#discord#partnership
Does Joe regret the pivot?
interview#regret#pivot#partnership
Managing the team and public perception
Advice to his past self
Should others have spoken up?
What makes a great partnership?
interview#partnership#communication#success
Should you go into business with your best mate?
Partnership prenups
interview#prenup#partnership#legal
Where to find Joe and wrap-up
Show notes
When to Say Goodbye: Ending a Partnership with Joe Fier
Guest: Joe Fier — co-host of the Hustle and Flowchart podcast, founder of PodHacker, and one half of one of the most successful podcasting partnerships of the last decade.
Joe and Matt Wolfe built Hustle and Flowchart into a thriving podcast and business — and then, after years of success, Joe made the gut-wrenching decision to walk away.
In this incredibly intimate and honest conversation, Joe opens up about how he knew the partnership wasn't working, the 3-hour Discord message that started the breakup, the panic attacks that told him something had to change, and how he and Matt managed to end things without destroying their friendship or their business.
Al and Leanne dig into the psychology of partnerships — why entrepreneurs are drawn to them in the first place, the personality traits that make them so hard to sustain, and how to break up without burning everything down. Plus: should you ever go into business with your best mate? And what does a prenup for a partnership actually look like?
Top 3 Takeaways
Listen to your gut — it's usually right before your head catches up. Joe's body was telling him something was wrong long before he could articulate it. Panic attacks, tight chest, that nagging feeling of holding something back — those aren't weaknesses, they're data.
How you break up matters more than that you break up. Joe spent 3 hours writing an objective, respectful message to Matt. No blame, no drama — just honesty. It's why they've managed to preserve the friendship and the business.
A partnership should never be about filling a void. Joe went into his first partnership partly out of a confidence deficit. The best partnerships are built from a place of strength and alignment, not neediness or fear of going it alone.
More From Joe Fier
- Hustle & Flowchart podcast: hustleandflowchart.com
- Joe Fier on Twitter/X: twitter.com/joefier
- PodHacker course for podcasters: podhacker.com
- Matt Wolfe on Twitter: twitter.com/mreflow
- Matt's AI Channel on YouTube: youtube.com/@mreflow
Connect With Us
Got a question? Feedback? Gripes? Come and talk to us — get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn, all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Email: podcast@TruthLiesandWork.com
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Joe FierAnd this is, this was a decision I needed to make for myself, my family, and it was the right move. It was fucking hard. And this is like, I didn't wanna lose a friend, so, or friends, but mainly Matt because, you know, this is a long-term friend. So that's why I chose like, hey, I needed to be very objective and I'm happy I accomplished that. And then the next morning I woke up to both their messages and they completely agreed.
Al ElliottHello.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYeah. Welcome back. Welcome back. As we always say, if you're brand new, then let us know. Jump on LinkedIn. We— well, Leanne's on LinkedIn. I'm not. But jump on LinkedIn, search for Truth, Lies and tell us you're new. Tell us what you like about us. Tell us what you don't like.
Leanne ElliottYes, get in touch. We're not going to chat on too long today because we've got a really great story for you. We're talking about breakups, and talking about breakups, I think my body is trying to break up with its ability to birth a human or grow a human. I feel like crap. It might be time to get back in touch with, uh, Dr. Kelly off of the women's health episode, you know.
Al ElliottOh, poor love. I think we do have it a little bit easier, us fellas, don't we? Because our, our part in the, uh, in the child Production is relatively, well, in some cases, relatively short.
Leanne ElliottSome briefer than others.
Al ElliottMoving on. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot because why? HubSpot HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Joe FierNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottMoving on. Yes, before I go and hide under a blanket with a chicken burger, let's talk about our guest today.
Al ElliottSo it's a special day for me because I got to interview one of my heroes. I've been listening to Joe and Matt for years, and we'll introduce them in a second, but I even bought some of their products. They've definitely shaped the way I've thought and built businesses. However, about 2 or 3 years ago, their show, which was called The Hustle and Flowchart, kind of pivoted from a podcast about marketing with all of my marketing heroes. You might— you think about a marketing hero, they've been on there— to like a podcast about Web three and crypto, and I had some crypto, and I was slightly interested in Web three. So I obviously continued to listen, and also it's Matt and Joe's. Of course, you know, they're my they were my buds. But I found myself sort of forcing to listen a little bit, and I gave it a break. Now fast forward to January this year, and not only have I seen Matt on YouTube go from zero to like I think he's on half a million subscribers talking about AI on YouTube, but Joe also joined the HubSpot Network, which is obviously. the business destination for business professionals— no, the audio destination for business professionals. So after a couple of whiskies one night, I got the confidence to message him and ask him if he wanted to be a guest.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I remember you being really nervous, but it turned out that Joe's really cool, isn't it? Pretty down to earth.
Al ElliottYeah, you will find out shortly just how honest and down to earth he is. Um, I'm currently exiting a partnership myself, so I wanted to find out the story behind Joe and Matt's quite public breakup. Like, did they fall out? Are they still mates? Did they ever fight in a McDonald's car park? All will be revealed over the next 30 to 40 minutes.
Leanne ElliottYeah, Al's asked me to pop in from time to time to just talk a little bit about the psychology of relationships or partnerships, uh, but to be honest, Joe has a lot of the answers on this one. So this is a perfect episode for you if you want to start a partnership, if you're in a partnership that's a bit rocky, Or if you're thinking about ending a partnership.
Al ElliottYep. We're gonna answer questions like, why might you want to get into a partnership in the first place? Should you be friends? What makes a great partner? Can you prevent a messing— a messy ending should it happen? So our guest today is the amazing Joe Fier, who has the podcast Hustle and Flowchart. If you've never heard of it and you're into marketing or business growth, or you're an entrepreneur, this is definitely what you should be going to check out. I asked him to tell us how he and Matt met.
Joe FierIt was about 15-ish years ago. My partner that you're talking about, previous business partner, still really good friends. So I just wanted to note that there is Matt Wolf. And we, we started working together at his parents' company. They actually created these wooden shutters, interior shutters. And it was a, so it was a manufacturing company and they needed some help in their office. That was the first time I was exposed to entrepreneurship and really seeing what's possible. to create something of your own outside of the corporate environment and someone else's rules and playbooks. So that's where Matt and I, you know, outside of the day job that was there at the shutter company, we started exploring blogs and really reading things like Ramit Sethi with I'll Teach You to Be Rich and Tim Ferriss. That was when content marketing started for both of us. And for me, Primarily writing blogs, podcasting, and videos. We started kind of tinkering around on the side doing that. Usually it was on the weekends after the work week with some Coronas in his garage. For some reason, we would record these videos of— it was kind of like us regurgitating and talking about what we learned in the marketing space, primarily in business. Long story short, Matt and I became partners and we took this thing full-time. But what's interesting is that my buddy Matt and partner, and we're talking about relationships, he was there through it all. And still to this day, after we've split yet again about a year and some change ago now, we're still really good buddies. We support each other. We don't talk as much, but to be very honest, we're both, we have very full lives in our own ways. And yeah, it's pretty interesting to have someone like that that you started in the beginning and You kind of, you're always supporting each other, even if it's a business relationship or not. I think it's very unique.
Leanne ElliottI wanted to know why Joe wanted a partner in the first place.
Joe FierWhen I was starting out, I think it was definitely a confidence thing as well, figuring out like, I didn't, this was all new to me, the entrepreneurship thing. I didn't honestly know where to start. And it was kind of given to me in a way in the form of that book, you know, Rich Dad Poor Dad. So, because prior to that, you know, my parents were not entrepreneurs. My dad was, Never really had a career, but he helped a lot, especially with the kids, school, and had some other jobs. My mom had a career, but was very, you know, definitely not entrepreneurial. So that was foreign to me. So I think that was probably a big piece of it, Al, to begin with. But then from there I just realized like, wow, you could do a lot when you're co-creating and exchanging ideas. And I mean, still to this day I do a lot of stuff solo, but I still love to partner up with others, and that's why I love podcasting so much. There's so many ways to extend, you know, this time here together, but then take that into something bigger. I feel like there's just way more power momentum that can be generated that way.
Leanne ElliottThere is a lot of talk about the personality of entrepreneurs, and I get asked about it quite a bit actually, and for good reason. I mean, it's interesting, and there's also some pretty interesting research. Hogan Assessment Systems is a really cool personality inventory publisher. If you haven't heard of them, go and check them out. But they've done some really cool research into the personality of a successful entrepreneur. So they found that successful entrepreneurs typically score highly on a trait called ambitious. So that includes being self-confident, competitive, And very energetic. They also score very highly on sociable. So that means that they're typically quite extroverted, enjoy social situations, group meetings, parties, that type of thing. Might be why our extroverted leaders want to bring people back to the office, just saying. But Hogan also looked at a trait called prudence. So high prudence means that individuals are conscientious, dependable, structured, rule-following.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne ElliottThey found that the entrepreneurial personality scores pretty low on prudence. They are risk-takers. They also score low on interpersonal sensitivity, which means entrepreneurs aren't typically very empathetic, warm, or trusting. And in fact, there is a lot of commonality between the entrepreneur and the organized criminal when it comes to personality, which might sound shocking, but isn't that surprising if you consider the demise of some highly successful entrepreneurs like Elizabeth Holmes or Sam Bankman-Fried. It also makes sense there are some classic partnerships between an entrepreneur and perhaps a more prudent leader. Think Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, a classic, classic example. So I wanted to know whether Joe and Matt's personality traits had a big impact on their combined success.
Joe FierI think there's a lot of discovery that happened when him and I were working together. And when I think of discovery, I think of I think of personality traits. I think of skill sets. You know, I'm big on the Kolbe and the, you know, the DISC assessments and understanding what are our strengths, our superpowers, and what are the things that you should not be doing, like stay the hell away. I think there was always a tech side of him that I had a little bit of, but he was a lot more technical in terms of, you know, like the building of websites or even the architecture of certain things. In terms of connecting in people, that's always been my thing, at least when we were working together. That's how we ended up kind of aligning on things is we would share a vision. I felt confident enough to do that myself. At the same time, I felt like it was just a power in the skill sets. And I think he saw that too, is if we can bounce ideas and get different perspectives. I think that was the biggest thing is we can kind of check each other's work. We can brainstorm together. So there was always that hustle and flowchart, not to just drop the name of the podcast, but honestly, it kind of was bred from those personalities and that yin and yang in a way is what it kind of felt like.
Al ElliottSo how would you know when things aren't working in a partnership? I know for me it was just that I didn't have the interest or the energy I once had for the business that I was in partnership with. And just to be clear, I still love the guy who I'm in partnership with, but I came to the conclusion that we wanted to go in slightly different directions. Joe's story is quite similar.
Joe FierThere was always like one person would, you know, maybe express a little more in a certain scenario or a specific topic or with a specific person or whatever. And then the other person might not get fully that expression out. And I know I felt that sometimes, so it felt like I was almost holding back my thoughts, passions, perspectives, which may or may not have been true. It's like everybody wants to put their ideas out there and we're all thinking differently and that's okay. And at the same time, yeah, I felt like that was something that ultimately led to where There was a divergence of where we wanted to take things in the future. And that's kind of felt like a natural, uh, natural parting at a, at a point because we're probably, I don't know if it's this internalization of these thoughts and expressions that we want to put out there. And there's a point, a breaking point that they just need to come out somehow.
Al ElliottYeah.
Joe FierI feel like that was, that was one of the big things in my mind that was always in there is like I was holding back a part of me. And yeah, I'm pretty sure he was feeling the same. That's why he's crushing it with AI and going down that path and helping a lot of people that way. It was never like, Matt, let's go to Duke's, let's start. It was always like, this ain't working. We need to take a step back, take a break, reassess, and then figure out what's the best path from here on.
Leanne ElliottOkay, so you know it isn't working, but when do you actually know the partnership should end?
Joe FierI think a lot of people thought that it's— we had a good thing going, and I think we both would agree. It's like we had these personalities. We knew, we kind of knew how each other thinks, so we complete each other's sentences or just know exactly like, oh, he's going to say a few more things. I'm just going to sit over here and shut up for a second because he's going to do his Matt thing or he's gonna do his Joe thing. And it was pretty cool. You know, it's a, it's very difficult to get that rhythm and flow. And there was a point where, let's see, it was around Pod Hacker actually, cuz you were going through Pod Hacker, right? That course was teaching people how to start a podcast and scale it and monetize. And it was selling and did well, but I think it just wasn't, it wasn't moving the needle fast enough for I wouldn't— I don't wanna just pin it on Matt, but I think it was on for both of us. You know, it was like we had a lot of stuff going as always. There's like, with podcasts, you have this, like, you have so many opportunities and things that can come your way and people with ideas. And I think that the bigger vision just started to get fuzzy and we were losing touch in that, like, 'cause we had the podcasting course was doing was doing well, but then the, there was also the podcast itself, you know, was, was on a pretty good trajectory. It just felt like it was a little bit less flowy and more, there's a lot more friction, I'll just say. Like, and we kind of both had that feeling like, it's like, this isn't working out as well as it used to. Like, we're not really gaining a lot of momentum here. What's going on? Like, what's really going on? And, you know, in retrospect, it seemed like the vision, the North Star, we just weren't aligned anymore. And, you know, it's, even though we talked a lot, I feel like it was just missing the mark on like where we're headed. So he lost a lot of interest. I think I got, I felt frustrated because I actually really wanted to keep pushing the podcast stuff forward. And I saw where it could, in my mind, on the partnership side with affiliates and working with people, I could see how it was shaking out, but just took time.
Al ElliottYou know how some people think having a kid is going to save their marriage and generally it doesn't? Well, Joe and Matt's equivalent of having a kid together was a hard pivot into Web3 and crypto. So I asked them to explain exactly what happened and why they did this hard pivot.
Joe FierLong story short, we did a whole— we basically said, you know what, let's go try some stuff over there. Let's play with some of these friends of ours that are in that space that already had some media network. We saw it as an opportunity to discuss some cutting-edge things on our podcast, you know, almost like bridging this gap of like business owners to this new technology that the world— it's gonna overtake the world and, you know, everybody's gonna be using crypto in a couple months. I think there was a— it was interesting because we got the top people in the industry as guests really fast, like the founder of Twitch, Justin Kan. Like we were able to get him as a guest and we hung out with him multiple times. We had like meetings and stuff with him too. And then his partner David, he founded Google Fonts and Google Drive and like had him on the podcast. He actually ended up giving us some like business advice too later on, which is really cool. Just on a separate meeting, I'm just like, this is wild, you know? And our first client in the space, 'cause we naturally started working with some of these crypto clients was Animoca Brands, which is like a $3 billion company or something. It's like the biggest portfolio in the crypto space. And like, we're just like, oh, all right, well, I guess that was a good pivot. Like we're starting to nail the marks on all these. And I'll be honest, like I kind of felt a little disconnect in me in that pivot though. Like I knew that for me internally, It didn't feel totally right, but it was exciting. And I saw we were riding a wave that felt like it was building. I'd say that Matt was much more, again, technical, really interested. He's always been on the leading edge of stuff where I'm a little bit more of a laggard in that sense and more like on the people side, you know? And obviously when you're talking crypto and all that, it's like very technical and forward thinking. So There was a little bit of that disconnect. I think we started to kind of separate a little bit in terms of how we interacted in that space and what we understood. It kind of started to sacrifice our existing brand and our listenership, and people got very confused because we talked about marketing for like 5 and a half years or whatever, and now we're all of a sudden went, we're talking about crypto and all these like NFTs and all these wallets and getting hacked and like, you know, how to— people were just like, what the hell? Why am I here now? So, you know, at the same time, our podcast grew tremendously because there weren't a lot of crypto shows. But at the same time, we sacrificed our existing audience. And that really was always in my head. And it honestly like felt like daggers in my gut for half the time. Because I'm like, we kind of turned our back on people that were with us for years. It wasn't until, what was it, October, maybe end of September of 2022 that I realized for me, I was feeling like shit. I felt like it was, that was when the market started to kind of tank in the crypto space. And for me, I just internalized it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Joe FierVery stressful, panic attack feeling, chest tight, everything. And this is, I had a, what, 2-and-a-half-year-old, I think at the time she was maybe. And I'm just like, I don't get to spend time with my daughter as much, my wife. And we're working, we had a different partner and we were working in this house and it was an awesome setup. It was like a big studio basically all over the place, like different rooms in the house were just a full green screen setup.
Al ElliottYeah.
Joe FierBecause we were doing all these live streams and stuff. And I'm like, it was a fun place. You know, it was almost like you could do a little party mode. There's a pool and then like do the work mode. And we had a cool routine, but then I realized, I'm like, we're not making money here. You know, it's super stressful for me because I feel like I'm very much, I'd love to be with my family and especially young daughter. I'm like, this is an age I want to be present and experience. And Yeah, I just felt very disconnected even with where I wanted to be with this crypto space. Back to the vision and back to even like before the pivot, I really saw more on the marketing side in this podcasting space and a way to connect with others as like, I feel like that's more my thing, not the tech crypto stuff that was kind of outta my wheelhouse a little bit. And it wasn't until early October 2022 that I I was like, you know what? I can't do this shit anymore. I just, it wasn't aligning with me anymore. And I had to be real with the guys. My communication wasn't really as smooth with them. It was a little bit more, I wouldn't call it angry, but it was a lot more frustrated, you know, a lot shorter. And I noticed, I'm like, that's not me. That's not normal Joe. And all these things got me to think, I'm like, okay, there's a lot of things compiling.
Leanne ElliottSo at this point, they both know that things aren't right. I wanted to know how Joe told Matt exactly how did they break up?
Joe FierEnded up writing something in Discord for like, probably took me 3 hours to write. I chose to be very objective and know that I cannot do any personal, like it's not a, I'm going to point fingers kind of thing. It's like I'm going to line out the key things. There's a money thing, there's a time thing, there's a me away from my my family think? Like, there were these like 6 or 7 components that I lined out very objectively and said, I can't do this anymore, guys. And I had to get super real with them, with me. And I probably proofread that thing like 20 times that night, even had my wife look at it. She's an entrepreneur and she knows me well. And she definitely was like, what the hell are you doing?
Leanne ElliottYou know?
Joe FierSo in terms of like the year prior. And the message, like when I finally hit send, it was probably like 1:00 AM because it took me that long to just get it outta my head. And I immediately felt relief, like a sumo wrestler lifted off my chest. I took a bath and I was just like, I am not looking in the rearview mirror. And this was a decision I needed to make for myself, my family, and it was the right move. It was fucking hard. And this is like, I didn't wanna lose a friend, so, or friends, but mainly Matt because this is a long-term friend. So that's why I chose like, hey, I needed to be very objective and I'm happy I accomplished that. And then the next morning I woke up to both their messages and they completely agreed. Like they thanked me for my honesty and I don't know if it's true, but I think it helped them see some of the things that they might've been ignoring as well, like the numbers and like it's easy to get swept up in the momentum of things and the hype, especially when we're like literally talking with the people who are founding these amazing ventures. And yeah, I think that was like, there needed to be that moment of like, rip the bandaid off. Like someone needs to talk a little realness here, the truth, you know, and be objective. That was not my normal way to approach communication, but I'm happy I did it and it got me to really focus in, get analytical and And I think it helped free a lot of us to figure out like, what really should we be doing with our lives? And that's like probably the biggest spectrum and the deepest I've gone probably ever talking about this, Al.
Al ElliottOne of the questions I asked Joe was, should they have ended it earlier? Does Joe regret even doing this pivot?
Joe FierI'm gonna be honest and like say like, yeah, I should have been doing that shit for myself. Like getting super real, very objective. I was getting swept up in the momentum all at the same time. And kind of like what you pointed out earlier, I was still feeling the partnership. I'm like, oh, Matt and I both are this duo, this team that are carrying on to the next thing now. And that's how we saw each other because I think we both had this kind of this comfort knowing that like, okay, I got this other brain of mine, this friend, this person that I can trust and I know how they think. So I know if I have any kind of question or like a gap in my own self, I can go to him and like probably get a good answer and then we know our way. So yeah, man, I definitely think it could have, and dare I say, should have to maybe save like a year or so and some stress. But honestly, I learned so much, man, over that year where we extended it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Joe FierIn the crypto Web3 space. And yeah, that got me to really align more with myself and get a lot more intuitive because like I said, my chest, like a lot of physical stuff was coming out for that year of stress. And like those were all signs to me being like, ooh buddy, you need to change. Like there's some things that you're ignoring and you're stuffing down for the sake of external things, stimulus or people. And yeah, to this day, now I'm very cognizant and very aware of that. And wouldn't have happened unless I did it for that year or so with him.
Leanne ElliottThe breakup of a partnership or any kind of leadership exit will naturally have an impact on the whole team. It's a significant change in the business that you work for as an employee. And any significant change triggers our threat response. It's our fight and flight response. We become anxious, we don't think as clearly, we'll make bold moves to protect ourselves, like maybe handing in our resignation. The loss of a co-founder or a senior leader also signals the end of a chapter in the business. And while this change is fast, the psychological transition of the change is slow. So the Bridges Model of Change describes this as the ending stage. There's lots of resistance from people because they're being forced to let go of something that they're comfortable with or value. It's likely that separating partners and their teams will experience fear, anger, denial, frustration, sadness, and even a sense of grief. So for effective, sustainable, and psychologically healthy change, this ending stage, this loss, it needs to be processed. Lee, when you said bridges, is that like a term or is that a person or Psychologist called Bridges, who created the model of change and psychological transition, which I've just described there. And that first stage is the ending stage.
Al ElliottThat makes sense. Thank you. Carry on.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, so with Matt and Joe, it wasn't just the reputation impact of their internal teams they had to consider. It was quite a public separation.
Joe FierI honestly, you know, in retrospect, I see it like there was this one episode we put out there that we called it Burning the Ships. And I'm just like, looking back at it now, I'm like, man, burning the ships. Like, that is such a putting it out there kind of thing. Like, all right, we're done with you, you know, in terms of audience or people who have led us up to this point and helped us out. And yeah, the perception, it was in my mind, um, probably the whole time, to be very honest. It was like, I really felt like we left people behind. We, in terms of pivoting the show, 'cause that was probably the biggest public part of it all, is the Hustle and Flowchart podcast where it pivoted from like all these marketing tactics and interviewing authors, people like Robert Cialdini and a whole bunch of diff— we had like NFL players, professional athletes and just elite people, champions, Olympians, and And I've gone back to that since then, but there was definitely this gap, man. Like, we lost a lot of people and I knew, like, we weren't focusing on it, nor did we talk about it. And that was the weird thing in my mind. I'm like, we're not really bringing up the elephant in the room that we just totally did like a whole 180, you know, and kind of left a lot of people. And now they're probably scratching their head wondering what the What the fuck are these guys talking about? Like Web3 and games, because we went down the gaming route too. So it was like, that wasn't aligned with any of the people we had. Yeah, I think that was partially, that was what was irking me. And literally, like, I felt like we just turned our back on those people for like 18 months. That was a lot of the pain I would say for that year and a half or so was that feeling of just a complete disconnection from the people that were there.
Al ElliottI asked Joe that if he could go back in time and give advice to himself, what would he say to himself?
Joe FierI was moving too quickly and making decisions very fast and not listening to my gut, my intuition. There are these signs. And for me, like I was mentioning, these chest feelings, this tightness. And I remember driving home from the office we worked at or the house. And it was like the same street, it would just like trigger. It was like right before I got home, it'd just get really freaking tight and be like, you know, I'd be like, I can't even take a full breath. And I was like, what the hell is this? This is a heart attack? I don't know what it is. But for a while I just kept pushing it and just kept pushing, pushing. And signs like, hey, communication. I wasn't able to communicate Exactly how I was feeling to the guys. And I think I just kept it going. So looking back, I would definitely say slow down and focus on my intuition, like my body feeling, and really know that that means something. There's another brain in our gut for— there's what, the microbiome and all that? There's all the stats out there that there's more in there than any other part of our body. It's like there's intelligence there that I wasn't tapping into. Yeah, I knew of that, but I was just getting too caught up in the momentum. And yeah, that's something where it's like, hold on, slow it down. And that's honestly been my motto. And also this feeling of enough. Like when I restarted Hustle and Flowchart, beginning of 2023, the phrase or the thing that kept coming up was like, what's my enough? What's your enough? And figuring out how hard do you really need to push? Or like, do you really need to do that new thing or drastically pivot and go over here? And that would be the question I asked myself then. It's like, what's your enough? Like, what do you, what do you, what What do you really want with this? And then honing in on what's my North Star, my vision, not necessarily a shared vision, but what's Joe's vision?
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Joe FierUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work.
Al ElliottAnd we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Joe FierSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottAny partnership has multiple people. So is there a responsibility for others to shout out? if they feel one person is struggling. Should Matt have said something to Joe?
Joe FierI don't think it was his job. I would never ever put anyone externally to be that person. Could, I mean, just like me, could we have sensed things were a little off? Yes. And I think that comes to knowing each other, communication, getting real. I mean, I think we both were caught up in the momentum. I don't think he would argue with that at all. And at the same time, we had different ways of seeing where things can shape up and probably different ways that we can be useful in that scenario. And I think he was feeling a lot more satisfied in the work. I was not. And I think we both were feeling the financial pressure and also the market pressure of like the crypto space and the fact that we basically turned off everything else in our business prior to that. So it was like an all or nothing is what we were doing. And yeah, I mean, I, looking back, I wish we communicated better, both of us to each other. And we paused and, you know, took these moments like we did a year or 2 earlier to, hey, let's like, let's get real with ourselves here. Like, what is it that we want? Like, Fuck all the other external stuff and what other people are saying, what the media's saying, all the, what could be, we could be millionaires off of this game that if we invest. Yeah, there were all these scenarios that were playing out, but that's external. And yeah, getting real with like, what is it inside that we're feeling? But also let's get real with each other because there's no one that's going to judge You know, at least with, especially with the two of us, like we got each other's backs. We're brothers from other mothers. And that's why it's always been kind of this, you know, the separation, but working parallel or living parallel. And yeah, that was a moment we were just both kind of caught up. So I would never point any blame at either of us, especially not him externally, but more like, hey, probably should have listened to ourselves a little bit more and And then, you know, found a quiet time to maybe go on a walk outside of the environment, like get outside and, uh, go talk it out like bros.
Al ElliottBoth Joe and Matt have had multiple different partnerships with other people, so I asked him what he thought makes a great partnership.
Joe FierI think what makes a great partnership is, is this whole open communication and again, getting real and checking in with each other. And that's something that Matt and I did a lot of. Every single day is like, we always had this kind of, when we were meeting in person, that is this like, hey, let's come together and just talk about and like unload and just like, I'm just gonna be listening. So fill the basket up. I'm here to catch it, you know, and tell me all your thoughts, your crazy ideas, stressors, the stuff that's keeping you up at night. We would do that a lot and I think that's valuable with any partnership relationship, especially with a spouse partner, romantic relationship as well. It's like, hey, there's a sacred point right now where I'm going to listen to you and I want you to fill this basket up because I know it's going to unload some stuff on your chest and brain and we're probably going to learn some new things about each other and figure out the next best steps that are going to help both of us.
Leanne ElliottAl, you and your partner are best mates. Joe and Matt are best mates. So both of those partnerships have ended. So is it a good thing to start a partnership with your mate?
Joe FierI would've said yes before, when I started, I think because I felt like everybody needed to be my friend for whatever weird reason that was in my brain and deep-seated in me. But now I'd say the answer's no, actually. Hell no. But there needs to be a, again, the shared vision, of course. And then also respect. I think respect is like the foundation or the bedrock of it all. And respect of why are we doing this thing in the first place? Why do we connect and why do we go a little further? And Respect goes to all sorts of areas of life. It could be like the way that you live, how you live, your partnership, your relationship, kids or no kids, your lifestyle. I feel like all that plays into a business relationship or anything. I see this with my wife and her business partner. We have a couple of business partners, but on one of these projects, she lives a completely different life. And would they be the best friends in life or even remotely? No. And that's okay. And I think there was like a little questioning that at first. It's like, wait, and I feel like it's a realization that she, and not speaking for my wife, but there's times like that where it's like, I could see that in motion now is like, oh yeah. They don't need to be friends. And maybe there was a time where they felt like they had to be as well on both ends. Again, respect, I think, is the big part. And then sharing the vision. I mean, I keep going to that. The vision is everything because that's going to— it's like the glue of the conversation or the focus of how you're steering the ship.
Al ElliottYeah.
Joe FierI think that's probably where a lesser of the friendship is needed, but it's probably good to have that bond somewhere. some similar thing you can tap into.
Leanne ElliottPrenups, controversial. Let's not say any more about that. Um, but you know, the logical scientist in me quite likes the idea of having a specific pre-agreed way of ending a partnership. It kind of takes away some of the, the difficulty of it. So what can we do at the beginning to prevent a messy breakup in a business partnership?
Joe FierI know it's tough because yeah, you could have agreements till your eyes bleed, to be honest. You know, you can try to think of all these things and Of course you have NDAs, but all these other agreements, because I've seen some friends' partnerships and the guy I'm particularly talking about and the guy that there's an opportunity, I've seen a business partnership with him and his other partner go very south, very bad, and go into this whole legal battle and it can get messy. I think for me, I have a really good feeling of people. I know that doesn't really help other people, but it's like, I feel like there's like this intuitive feeling of like, all right, so, and this, it's not perfect at all, but the more you understand how they operate, I mean, I keep going to the vision, but like, it also, I feel like their words, their actions, knowing where they came from, you have a good sense of who this person is, especially if they're a little older and have been doing the game for a little bit. I feel like do your homework is probably the better thing before you jump into things. It's like, do some research, understand maybe the circles they run in, talk to some of their friends, maybe network around that a little bit and understand what you're getting into before you commit to maybe a full-on business mode. I mean, honestly, we can learn a lot about people just in the public space, just by searching online, social media, Maybe looking at some content they've published, see how they think. A friend of mine, Dan Ryan, I'll just shout him out because he loves to get mentioned. He basically is like, if he sees one red flag, he's out. Like, he has a very hardcore one red flag rule.
Al ElliottJoe is a legend. I know that you'll want to hear more from him, and the best place to start is the podcast. But Joe's got a deeper mission than just bringing you cool guests each week.
Joe FierHop over to the podcast. It's the piece that's closest to my heart, to be very honest, and that's Hustle and Flowchart. You can find it at hustleandflowchart.com. It's also on the HubSpot Network as well. My mission is to, you know, I've been in some very stressful, I've lost a lot of friends early, my dad to unfortunate circumstances. And I see that also happening to a lot of entrepreneurs and people who just honestly burn out or feel like it's all or nothing. And we put a lot of weight on our shoulders as entrepreneurs. So I want to take that weight off a little bit and share different stories from people who have, you know, who have that perspective of both the doing and the go-go and also the being and like slow down. So just know that it's a place for entrepreneurs. The Hustle and Flow Chart is the place to go.
Leanne ElliottSuch an honest conversation with Joe. He was willing to share so much of his very personal experiences, which isn't Easy. I mean, Al, listening to that, are there any things that resonated with you and what you're going through at the minute?
Al ElliottLots, lots. Um, I don't regret, just as these 2 guys don't regret, I don't regret for a second going into the partnership. Um, I don't regret even having, you know, creating what the partnership would look like if it did end. That would have been sensible, but it's still— that's fine. I think what really resonated, and also let's be honest, this is like 30 minutes of an hour and 10-minute interview. Um, so there's so much in there. And what really resonated was just how honest Joe was with me and also with himself. You know, he's— he wasn't a lot of— the temptation is to say, oh well, you know, it would have been fine, but my partner, you know, lost interest. And my business partner in the particular business I'm talking about could very well say, oh, I'm just really annoyed because he's just lost interest. But he doesn't. He's my mate. And he's like, okay, let's work towards Towards fixing this. And I think that may come, maybe something which comes with age. Um, it could be that the more mature you are, the less likely you are to try and blame someone. But it all boils down to the fact that there's a massive amount of respect both between Matt and Joe and between myself and my business partner. Huge amount of respect there. And just, just genuine people. You just genuinely wanna see the other person do well. Um, and I think that.
Joe FierYeah.
Al Elliottshows why Matt and Joe will probably be in 20 years' time, will go back and do something together. They might do it in 20 years, 20 months' time, we don't know. But it's just really, really important to have that, that mutual respect, and then probably the open lines of communication.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I mean, it's a really tough thing to, to go through. It is like any breakup, it really is, you know. It's this practical and pragmatic parts, and there's, there's emotional and traumatic parts. If you are going through something similar at the moment, get in touch. Chat to Al. We also— we always leave links in the show notes as well for various mental health services, um, if you are struggling. Um, so yeah, you're clearly not alone in this. It is experienced by many entrepreneurs. Um, so yeah, do reach out if you need any support at all. Speaking of great founders, we are back with another founder episode next week.
Al ElliottWe are talking to the incredible Danielle and Sophie Wood, co-founders of Yep, you're gonna really want to come join us for that one because it's such a great conversation. Again, I think about an hour and 20 minutes that I'm gonna have to somehow filter down to 30 minutes. But definitely join us. If you're not subscribed, then click that subscribe button because it really does help us.
Leanne ElliottRing that bell.
Al ElliottOh God, no, I've turned into that person, haven't I? I think it's time to go, Leanne.
Joe FierBye.
Al ElliottBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Pod— Pod— Pod— Pod— Pod— Pod—
Al ElliottThis was the 1800s when I grew up. All we had was a stick and a hoop.
Leanne ElliottItchy nose?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottDid you get it?
Al ElliottYeah.