Episode 92 · 23 April 2024 · 29:52

92: Redundancy news, Is Pizza Friday lame AF?, Micromanaging PLUS your Weekly Workplace Surgery - This Week In Work 23rd April 2024

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News: Micromanaging vs. giving too much freedom
news roundup#micromanagement #autonomy #news
News: The layoffs reality check
news roundup#layoffs #job-market #news
Clip: Leanne on the We Are Human Leaders Podcast
news roundup#gen-z #podcast #leadership
News: 'New' Gen Z work trends that aren't new
news roundup#gen-z #work-trends #news
Highlights from last week's episode with John Smith
news roundup#podcast #highlights #interview
Workplace Surgery: The micromanager with a diagnosis
workplace surgery#micromanagement #workplace-advice #coaching
Workplace Surgery: 'Am I being unfair?'
workplace surgery#fairness #workplace-advice #management
Workplace Surgery: Contractors and company culture
workplace surgery#contractors #company-culture #workplace-advice

Show notes

Redundancy News, Is Pizza Friday Lame AF? & Micromanaging — This Week in Work

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) tackle the fine line between giving your team freedom and flat-out neglecting them, why the current wave of layoffs demands a different kind of career safeguarding, and which so-called "Gen Z work trends" are actually older than you think. Plus, in the Weekly Workplace Surgery: a contractor culture question, a micromanager with a diagnosis, and a listener asking if they're being unfair.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. Can you give your team too much freedom? An Inc. magazine poll found 73% of people say micromanaging is the biggest workplace red flag — but 46% flagged the opposite problem. Leanne breaks down why "hands-off" isn't the same as "trusting," and why the real fix is training managers to calibrate their involvement. Source →

2. The layoffs wave — and how to protect yourself With tens of thousands of redundancies hitting the tech sector and beyond, Leanne shares hard-won insight from her own redundancy experience, including why organisations that drag out the process do more damage — and what you can do to safeguard your career. Source → Listen to Leanne on We Are Human Leaders →

3. "New" Gen Z work trends that aren't new Fast Company rounded up nine Gen Z work trends that "hit different now" — but Al and Leanne aren't having it. From "loud labourers" (first popularised by academic André Spicer) to the performative phone call, Gen Z didn't invent any of this. They just gave it better branding.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Micromanager with a diagnosis: "My manager has ADHD and micromanages constantly. Am I being unfair?"
The "unfair" boss: A listener asks if they're being too harsh — Leanne says the official diagnosis changes everything.
Contractors and culture: Should outside contractors be invited into team socials and culture — or left to their own devices?

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

🎁 Bonus: An Open Offer to Dom Joly

Al and Leanne extend a very public invitation to Dom Joly to come on the show. Dom — if you're listening, the door's open. (And no, this isn't a prank call.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript

Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Work podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. They are the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science, the psychology of work.

Al ElliottYeah, yeah. Welcome, welcome. If this is your first time listening on a Tuesday, I know if you've heard this before, just, just bear with me for 30 seconds. First time listening on a Tuesday, this is a brand new episode style that we do on a Tuesday, which is a little bit more informal than the Thursday. Thursday, very, very important, very important guests on there. But on a Tuesday, it's a little bit more laid back. It's just me and the lovely Leanne. You know she's a business psychologist. You also probably know she's my wife, but also business partner. We live in Bosnia. We have a dog.

Leanne ElliottI'm like an all-in-one, aren't I?

Al ElliottYou are. You're just a whole package. So if you like the interviews, then you need to come back on a Thursday. If you like just chats, then Tuesday will do for you.

Leanne ElliottYes. On today's episode of This Week in Work, working title— there's a lot of working titles on the Tuesdays.

Al ElliottIt's only episode 4 of Tuesday, this Tuesday style.

Leanne ElliottYeah, back off. It's only episode 4.

Al ElliottYeah. Sit down.

Leanne ElliottSit down, Geoff. Hey, we've not talked about Geoff for a while, have we?

Al ElliottGeoff was our recurring character for a little while who was a pain in our arses because he was always asking these questions. Basically, he was the annoying listener who'd write in and go, excuse me, I noticed that you didn't quite do this thing right, and you didn't mention that even though you said you would mention it. Poor Geoff.

Leanne ElliottSit down, Geoff.

Al ElliottSit down, Geoff. Anyway.

Leanne ElliottAll feedback welcome. On today's episode of This Week In Work, Can you give too much freedom to your team? That is a question we'll be asking and hopefully answering. We'll also be talking about Gen Z work trends and perhaps how they might not be quite as new as they, or we, think. And layoffs— what is the risk and what can you do to protect yourself?

Al ElliottWe also have highlights from last week's episode with Maradona's agent and the ever-popular Weekly Workplace Surgery with super psychologist Leanne. So let's kick off with your favourite time of the weekly.

Leanne ElliottIt's time for the news roundup. Cue the jingle. What have you got, Al?

Al ElliottAn article in Inc. magazine this week asked the question, if micromanaging is bad, can you go too far the other way? What was interesting in this article, and I will link to it in the show notes, Monster— Monster, not Inc., monster.com, isn't it?

Leanne ElliottThe, uh, the jobs board. Yeah.

Al ElliottYep. They did a poll where it found that 73% said micromanaging was the biggest workplace red flag. And 46% of people would consider leaving because of it. So the answer seems to be, obviously, to someone as simple as me, give more freedom to your teams. But that can actually backfire. Firstly, Inc. reckons this could demonstrate that you just don't care. Maybe it will look like the manager only cares about their own projects or tasks. And secondly, by just letting you get on with stuff, the manager can lose the opportunity to get the feedback. Another survey said that 96% of all employees wanted to get And as we learned from Dave Klein in episode 87, who's done over 1,000 one-to-one check-ins, one-to-one meetings, regular contact, even if it is just a, how are you getting on, is imperative. And finally, there is a risk that your good work won't be recognised. This makes sense because micromanagement will pick up on your mistakes, but it also gives you an opportunity for a manager to catch you doing something right. Now, Deloitte found that performance, engagement, and productivity is 14% better on average when managers recognise the work their employees do. The other downside of a manager that leaves you alone is that you may not have the relationship, which means that they may not back you up when you actually need it. If a manager doesn't know or care much about you, then do you think they'll really go to battle for you? So like everything, it's a balance, but the opposite of micromanaging doesn't seem to be unlimited freedom, Le.

Leanne ElliottYeah, I think there's this myth that, that micromanagement means a lot of time spent managing people. And not micromanagement means less time managing people. And actually, you'll probably spend as much time, if not more time, managing your people as a leader that steps back and doesn't micromanage, because it needs relationship building and trust building, and as you said, feedback and all that kind of stuff. Um, so yeah, so giving people freedom doesn't mean not managing them, it just means managing them more, more effectively, which is why you should train your managers.

Al ElliottWe're gonna get Leanne a t-shirt with train your managers on it.

Leanne ElliottWe should do merch. I would like train your managers. Um, Elon Musk can get in the bin, and Myers-Briggs is bullshit.

Al ElliottYes. What you've seen, Lee?

Leanne ElliottWell, changing the mood slightly— layoffs. We see a lot about it. There have been tens of thousands in the tech industry, and given the continued economic situation, we could be headed for more. We saw the UK and Japan go into recession earlier this year, and it does look like the USA may be next. According to an article in Business Insider featuring Danielle DiMartino Booth, who is Chief Strategic Officer and Market Forecaster at Quill Intelligence Research, the latest data shows that unemployment is creeping up. In April 2023, the unemployment rate was about 3.4% in the US, and that has gone up to 3.8% this year, which doesn't sound like much of an increase, but as Danielle explained Just an uptick of 0.35% is a bad sign, and if it stays there for a few months— well, that's actually what happened at the start of the financial crisis in 2008, and we all remember how that turned out. In fact, the article goes on to predict that layoffs could hit 370,000 by the end of April, numbers that we haven't seen since 2009. So yes, layoffs do look like they're also picking up speed as well. Data shows that layoffs and firings have jumped nearly 10% in the USA over the last year, and Danielle Booth thinks that this could be just the beginning, especially as companies start to share how they're doing financially. It's a similar picture in the UK. Unemployment has jumped up to 4.2%, uh, that was February this year, and we've seen some significant layoffs in retail and gaming industries recently. It is a tough, tough time out there. So this might raise the question, well, what should I do to reduce the risk of being made redundant, and what do I do if I am made redundant? Getting yourself prepared in a practical sense is always a good move. Update that resume, your LinkedIn, keep building and nurturing your network, keep an eye on the jobs boards. All those career cushioning activities are really important right now. If you have been made redundant, or if you do know it's coming, I would recommend you do focus on the psychological impacts first, including building your understanding of what is normal to feel and experience during what is a workplace trauma. To help with that, I would suggest going back to episode 13, How to Support Your Team Through Redundancy. redundancy using lessons from the Twitter layoffs. I also appeared on another podcast this week called We Are Human Leaders, where we discussed layoffs at length, including the practical steps you can be taking if you've recently been made redundant.

Al ElliottAnd here's a short clip of Leanne on said podcast.

Leanne ElliottInterestingly, I've been through a redundancy process myself within an organization. Unfortunately, was one of the employees at the time who Kept my job, but I guess the experience of just knowing that it was coming and not knowing some of the thought process around what jobs would be retrenched and why. The first thing I think is a business leader, if you've not been in this situation before, is just draw on your leadership skills, your executive skills that you have anyway. This is essentially a very big organizational change, and any organizational change, whether it be a digital transformation or layoffs, requires a very robust change management process. It can't be haphazard. It can't be, we'll see how we go. It needs to be planned out really, really carefully from the communications to the, what do you do once you've made those redundancies and you're left with the, you know, the people that remain and moving forward. So I think that's one mistake that organizations don't make. They don't have that change management process thought out, wraparound care, before they start to execute the layoffs. I think the second mistake people make is they'll try and go, oh, we'll just make a few people redundant now, and maybe that will fix a profitability problem, and we'll make a few more people redundant in a few weeks' The trouble with that slow approach is that it breeds ambiguity. It puts us all in our threat state for longer than we should be. That's when we turn on each other, including our colleagues, and this infighting starts.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottIf you're gonna do it, do it fast. And it's brutal. And we see these organizations, you know, like Meta and Amazon and Google, who are laying off tens of thousands of people at once, which sounds horrific, but actually it's the kindest way to do it because the quicker that process can be executed, identified, communicating who is going to sadly leave the business, supporting them through that process, supporting the people who remain through that process, and then being able to move forward as the organization that you then are. That is the most effective way you can protect culture, protect well-being, protect your employer brand. It's still going to be insanely disruptive. I'll leave a link in the show notes. And don't forget, we offer pro bono coaching for people who have recently lost their jobs. Spaces are limited, so please get in touch quickly. You'll find a link to book a direct meeting with me in the show notes. Anything else to add, Al?

Al ElliottYep, it's those pesky Gen Zers again thinking they're first to come up with things. I mean, of course they're just— because every generation thinks they've invented something new, and the older generation smile quietly as it's exactly the same as what they were doing years and years ago. I remember back in the '90s when I was growing up being horrified that my mother could sing along to this new stuff on the radio, and of course they were just covers from the '60s. So the pattern continues as Gen Z on TikTok are now using all kinds of new phrases that they think are new but actually are as old as time itself. And the pattern continues as Gen Z are now using all kinds of phrases on TikTok which they think are new. Sadly, they're not.

Leanne ElliottLike what?

Al ElliottWell, there's a term called loud laborers, which was first popularized by a guy called André Spicer. We have some names on this podcast. He's an organizational behavior professor and dean of Bayes Business School. And the idea is that there are some colleagues who spend their day self-promoting and telling everyone how amazing they are, And how much work they've done. And what they found was the majority of this person's colleagues would rather quit than confront this person. Clearly not a great situation for any manager.

Leanne ElliottSo loud labourers was first made popular by an academic, and now Gen Z are picking that up as if they just made it up.

Al ElliottYes.

Leanne ElliottBut, okay.

Al ElliottYeah. But more so, we've all done that. Well, I was just about to say, because if you, if you go back 25 years, 35 years, in fact, there's a, there's a, there's a great movie film called Office Space, and it's 25 years old this year, I think. And there's a character in there who wants everyone to know how important and hardworking they are. I can't remember what the character's name is, but if you've seen Office Space, you'll know who I mean. Uh, if more recently, Louis Litt in Suits, who just wanders around looking important. Let's be honest, these people aren't universally liked. So loud laborers might sound like a new fancy term, but it has been around for a while. Another one that's all over TikTok is a term called productivity theater. It describes anyone who'd rather look busy than actually do meaningful work. So whether it's replying to emails all day or DMs, or purposefully staying late, even though they're not actually achieving anything meaningful, these are the people who want to be seen to be working hard. So is this a new thing? Well, of course not. In every office in the '80s, there was always some idiot who'd walk around all day with an armful of files. This is back before email. So you just take files from office to office, just so people could see he or she was important. If you've ever travelled on a train in the UK, I don't know about other countries, but certainly in the UK, you'll have met this person too. Generally, they sit on a table, open their laptop, type briefly, then make a very loud phone call starting with, I'm on a train, to signify to both the people listening and the person at the other end of the, of the call that they're busy and important. There are a few more of these articles. There are links to the full articles in the show notes if you're interested.

Leanne ElliottI like it. It reminds me of that dumb jolly sketch. Hello? No, I'm on the train.

Al ElliottMy favourite one was when he was at a play and he just, he got the phone call and then he just went, I'm at a play. No, not really.

Leanne ElliottShould we get Dom on the show? Hey Dom, we've got a podcast. Not really.

Al ElliottAnyway, so that is the end of the news roundup. Last week we had the gracious and loquacious John Smith. By the way, I've just come up with that term and I'm enjoying it. That's what we're getting on a t-shirt. We had John Smith on the pod, who's done everything in the world, including bringing northern soul and American football to the UK, managed superstars like Diego Maradona, and still managed to find time to IPO his company and launch a number one hit in the UK charts. Here's John talking about the time when he negotiated with a Russian guy called Putin. We eventually got the deal done with. I said story in the book. It was the last day of the transfer window, and we got the. They got the deal done with 4 seconds left on the clock. But it was a real experience coming across a complete and utter brick wall, because I had nothing I could give him that he didn't have. And sometimes you just have to go, oh, fuck it. You know what? It is what it is. Let's get the deal done and we'll make it up somewhere else.

Leanne ElliottSo head back to last week's episode, which is episode 91, to hear the full After this short break, join us for the Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I will be answering your workplace questions. See you in a sec. Did you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work, and we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland.

Leanne ElliottSutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. Let's kick off this Weekly Workplace Surgery with the first question. By the way, if you've got a question you'd like me to put to Leanne about the workplace, check out the show notes for our email address. Um, and it can be anonymous or it can be nononymous. Is that the opposite of anonymous? It could be—

Leanne ElliottIt could be nononymous.

Al ElliottIt could be nononymous. Yeah. So, so let us know if you've got a question. Oh, and by the way, Leanne doesn't see these beforehand.

Leanne ElliottNo.

Al ElliottSo, no. So we literally— so you— when I'm editing this, I sometimes have to cut out quite long breaks where she's thinking about something. So here is the question. I've grown my company to 14 employees, and I've seen a bit of a change. When we were back about 8 or 9 people, we were scrappy, and we used to share like pizza and food and beer on a Friday afternoon, and all kinds of great ideas came from these informal meetings. But now we're bigger. The feedback I'm getting is that these what now people are calling pizza Fridays are lame, and also worse, it's an excuse not to pay anyone any more money. I'm genuinely shocked by this and a little bit sad because this was never meant to be about. throwing a few dollars at a few pizzas in lieu of giving someone a pay rise. This is about getting everyone together to swap ideas and have a bit of a moan if required. But also, everyone knows the business is still young. We're not making huge amounts of money, so increasing salaries is not an option right now. I feel like I might have messed it all up. What have I done wrong? What do I do next?

Leanne ElliottYou haven't, you haven't messed it up. This is fine. This is, we can work with this. Nothing awful has happened. You're okay. I think this kind of reminds me of, you know, when you start watching one of those films where there's usually some kind of obnoxious early teen girl and the mum's like, I don't understand, you used to love going shopping with me, you used to love it when I brushed your hair. It's kind of the same. I think it's like your business has matured to a point where those early startup things no longer work, or your people have matured, or the new people you've brought in have a different view on those things. You're an entrepreneur, you know what worked yesterday ain't gonna work today and definitely won't work tomorrow. So you've got to kind of roll with it and, and innovate a bit. And this is where you'll be easy, easy, because that's what you do. You've started a business, this is what you do. First question I would say reflect on: what's the purpose of said meetings, pizza parties? Is it to bond? Is it to ideate? Is it to problem solve? What's the, what's the purpose of that? And try and find other ways, probably more than likely within the working day, to achieve that same outcome. If you're in a position where you can't afford to pay people more salaries, people will understand that, but they're going to be less tolerant of not— of being paid a lower salary and be expected to stay late after work to eat pizza with you. Like, you can't kind of have it both ways. And particularly as a business grows, you're, you're no longer the scrappy startup. Now you're kind of getting to 14 people, you are a small established business, so that you're not as forgiven for those types of things. So I think, what is the purpose? What are you trying to get out of it? Look at other ways to do it. If you want to still have pizza, do a working lunch instead, or, you know, one of something like that. I guess it depends on what it is you're trying to do. If it's around team building, If it's around relationship building, if it's around ideation, and ask your team. Say to them, you know, okay, I get it. Pizza Friday is now lame. My bad. The whole reason I want to do this is to build relationships, to, to be creative, to problem solve. How do you think we should best do that? And get their feedback, what they're on board for. It might be a team away day. It might just be pizza at lunch instead of after work, or they might have a completely different idea. I think the thing is, as you grow, You need to be more intentional as a leader. You can't have these haphazard interactions just because people are excited to be around, uh, an engaging, vibrant entrepreneur who is in the early stages of startup. That is an exciting time. You're not there anymore, so you are unfortunately gonna have to work a bit harder to engage your people, but that is well within your gift to do so.

Al ElliottGreat answer. And also, who, who knew? Ask them what they want.

Leanne ElliottI know, right? Who knew?

Al ElliottIsn't it funny how people who are experienced in running businesses and dealing with customers and solving customers' problems and basically building something the marketplace wants forget that their employees are a marketplace too, and they want something. And to make them happy, just give them what they want. Okay, fabulous. Are you ready for question number 2?

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottOkay, now this one is definitely anonymous, um, and you will see why. Because even—

Leanne ElliottWhat did you do?

Al ElliottI didn't do anything. This wasn't me. But if even if this person had put their name on it, Um, I would not be reading that, reading their name out. An employee has told me that they've recently been diagnosed with autism. They've always been a tough person to manage, and it feels like they're looking for ways to avoid doing the work. In my opinion, this just seems yet another way to make their work life easier and make them feel special in the workplace. Am I being unfair?

Leanne ElliottWell, yes, you are being unfair. Do you want me to elaborate?

Al ElliottYeah, yeah, please.

Leanne ElliottI mean, if they have an official diagnosis, then that is the root cause of everything that you have been experiencing as their manager. That is the reason, the underlying reason behind the, the behaviors that they have in the workplace, behind some of the challenges they have in terms of organizing themselves or building relationships. So it's not an excuse, it's a diagnosis. If someone got diagnosed with cancer, you'd probably have a bit more empathy towards that individual in this situation, right? It's, it's, it's obviously a different, different manageable conditions, but essentially it's the same. It's a shock to the person. They've been given a diagnosis that perhaps they weren't expecting. In this situation, educate yourself. Find out about autism. Read about it. Understand what it means. It probably doesn't mean what you think it means. Go back to what episode, Neurodiversity 101, that will dive into exactly what neurodiversity is, why actually you have a potential incredibly effective, productive, phenomenally talented employee within your business. And now that you know how their mind works, you can leverage that. Um, so go back and listen to that. Look for an organization called Genius Within. That is a UK-based organization that works with businesses to support the neurodiverse within the organization and maximize performance in that sense whilst making it a safe and effective place for the individual. And if you're really struggling, I think ACAS have some, usually some, um, support around this in terms of the reasonable adjustments that you do legally have to, um, implement to support this person in your business. Neurodiversity is a funny one. It is not automatically classed as a disability, but if a person identifies it themselves as a disability, you need to treat it as a disability. Um, so you are being unfair and potentially, um, breaking the law if you're not very careful. So I would say educate yourself, check out Genius Within, um, and ACAS, contact them and figure out what your legal obligations are from With this new information that you have.

Al ElliottAnd if you want to understand a bit more about this, just go back to episode 41, which is what Leanne was talking about there, the Neuroversity 101. Professor Nancy Doyle is our guest on there, along with another woman called Jan Stewart, uh, both experts in slightly different ways. Nancy Doyle has an amazing way of explaining how someone who is neurodiverse thinks and how it is different to someone who is neurotypical. You sound like you might be neurotypical, and you might find that this is actually a huge benefit because you might find that there's a particular part of your work that this person will excel at. So definitely go back to listen to that. That's episode 41. Leanne, that was a fabulous answer right on the fly.

Leanne ElliottAre you ready?

Al ElliottAre you ready for our final question?

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottThis person writes, our organisation uses a couple of outside contractors when we need them, usually about once or twice a month. These contractors work remotely and so far seem happy enough, but I feel like I should be trying to include them more in the in-office and the rest of the members of, members of the staff. How do I do this the right way? And then I've got a PS here. These contractors get paid twice as much as the full-time employees because they only work on a contract basis. So I'm guessing they don't get paid twice as much in total, it's just for the actual hours, it's twice, twice as much in the hourly rate. I do worry that if it became public knowledge, it could cause problems. So it sounds like a twofold, a twofer there, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottA twofer. This is a tricky one, and I've seen organisations do it in very different ways. I've seen organisations who actually employ 100% contractors and build a culture around that, which is tricky but can be done. I've seen organisations that have offshore contractors working and have integrated them very closely within the business, and that can work very well. I've also seen it where these types of problems can can occur because people take the face value of an hourly rate. Of course, you pay your contractors more because they're not getting the same benefits that your people inside the business are getting. I think I would start again with, just because, do you know what I think it is a lot of the time, Al? Is that there's just some lovely people out there who just think that it just feels intuitively right that I wanna bring these people who work hard for me into my business. Why? Because it feels nice, or because you need to build a certain type of relationship between your contractors and your staff to get a job done, to make a project more effective, to make operations more efficient? What is the reason for wanting to bring in these people closer into your culture? Also, we might need to ask the question to the contractors if they want to be brought into your culture. Some people set up their own independent practices as freelancers because they've been burnt by organizational culture in the past and they might not want to jump in as, as quickly again. So I think the question is why? What is the business case for bringing people into your business? Secondly, then, I— it's going to be how you manage that, and that is going to require probably transparent conversation. The thing is, if you're worried that your people are going to react to the salary difference, you're better telling them first and explaining why that is so different, and then go from there, really. But I think I would be more inclined to, to look at the role that your contractors play within the business and in terms of that mission delivery. They play a very distinct role. For example, I worked on, on a welfare-to-work contract. We had permanent members of staff who were the coaches and administrative staff and compliance, and we had freelance tutors because they required specialist skills. to deliver specialist courses to individuals with highly specialised needs. So, that made sense for us because it wasn't a full-time job, although at times of peak, kind of peak busyness, it could be, but not for very long. So, it makes sense in that situation that you have a contractor. So, I think operationally, I think about operationally, and if it makes sense operationally to bring this person into your business, one, should that person actually be a full-time member of staff?

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottUm, of course there's financial considerations to that. Or 2, why are you bringing it into, into the culture? Because ultimately what you're going to do by bringing out what essentially are outsiders in is disrupt your culture and change your team dynamic. And that will take time. You know, the norming, storming, performing curve of teams, that's going to happen. So you will go through a storming and potentially dip in productivity and performance first. So it's not something to be done lightly. And it's not something to be done just because you think that'll make you a nice guy or gal. What's the, what's the business case for it? Because contractors in roles work very effectively and are more than happy being more distanced from the day-to-day politics and culture of an organisation. I feel like I'm rambling now, but you know what I'm trying to say?

Al ElliottI do. And I think particularly what you said about, um, they might not even want to be part of the culture. And that's something that's weird because I know that you and I have done contract work. In the past. I've no real interest in, you know, being part of someone's culture. I'm happy just to dip in, do my work, and dip out. Absolutely fine.

Leanne ElliottSo let's be honest, if you're a contractor, you get exposed to lots of different leaders and lots of different cultures, and there are some you'd really rather not. I appreciate the work. I enjoy the transaction. You stay there. I'll stay here. I don't want to get involved in that.

Al ElliottUm, so don't make assumptions. Same as all these, all these 3 questions have got It can be summed up by don't make assumptions. I think that's probably what it comes down to, is just don't assume that you know best. Maybe ask people what they want, ask people how you can help.

Leanne ElliottAnd I think as well, yeah, and I think as well, we can maybe sometimes— we're a bit guilty of, because we talk about culture so much and management so much and creating belonging so much, that perhaps business leaders are thinking that that's unfair to contractors to not bring them into that fold. And I think the starting point for whether you should do that is operationally, what's the— what's that role within the business and how is it best functioning within the business? If it's a contracted role, then it's a contracted role. You treat them well and you might want to invite them to the Christmas do when it comes around, or if you have a team building day, you might want to include them if there's a case for it. But I think start with the, the business side of it. Does that role need to be an internal role? If it does, then yeah, then it's worth diving into the complications of bringing that either in-house or, or allowing that person closer. But otherwise, I'm not sure there's a need, you know.

Al ElliottExcellent. Okay, well, that is all for this week. If you like this, then make sure you subscribe, as every Tuesday we do an episode just like this. As I said before, on Thursday we bring you an in-depth interview with world-class experts. Now, just to give you an idea, we've People from Microsoft, HSBC, Metro Bank, Jaguar Land Rover, even the BBC. We've had experts like Professor Sekeri Cooper, Professor John Amici, authors Bruce Daisley, Martin Lindstrom, and hundreds of other experts and founders with stories to tell. So if you just can't wait until Thursday, then you've got plenty of other episodes, about 90 in the back catalogue, which you can get stuck into. Leanne, anything to add before we go? No. Cool. Well, that makes things easy. We'll see you on Thursday.

Leanne ElliottBye.

Al ElliottBye-bye. I remember back. I remember. I remember when. I remember when. Mind. Warp. Warp. Pop pop pop pop warp. Didn't know where that noise was.