Episode 137 · 17 October 2024 · 50:42
How to have difficult conversations at work, with HR Experts Kathleen Troyer and Liz Bronson
Featuring Liz Bronson
How to have difficult conversations at work, with HR Experts Kathleen Troyer and Liz Bronson
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Introducing Kat Troyer and Liz Bronson
How external events have changed the workplace
panel interview#workplace#economy#change
Is the workplace more polarized than ever?
panel interview#polarization#workplace#culture
Navigating politics and elections at work
panel interview#politics#elections#workplace
Where leaders draw the line on workplace conversation
panel interview#leadership#conversation#boundaries
What bringing your whole self to work really means
panel interview#authenticity#work#self
When to have the uncomfortable conversation
panel interview#difficult-conversations#communication#conflict
Living company values, not just displaying them
panel interview#company-values#culture#leadership
Rumbling: embracing productive conflict
panel interview#conflict#brene-brown#rumbling
Can you avoid difficult conversations by choosing the right company?
panel interview#difficult-conversations#job-search#company-culture
Do you need an HR phone-a-friend?
panel interview#hr#support#resources
Top 3 takeaways and where to find Kat and Liz
Show notes
How to Have Difficult Conversations at Work — with Kathleen Troyer & Liz Bronson
Guest: Kathleen Troyer — CEO and Lead Consultant at Jigsaw Solutions Inc., leadership development and business strategy expert — and Liz Bronson — Global Professional in Human Resources (GPHR), whose career spans Barclays Global Investors, VMware, and ThriveCart. Together, they co-host the Real Job Talk podcast.
Political upheaval, economic instability, and a 24/7 news cycle have changed how we interact at work — often making the office feel more like a pressure cooker than a safe space.
Kathleen ("Kat") and Liz join Al and Leanne to tackle one of the hardest parts of leadership: having difficult conversations. They explore how global events have reshaped workplace dynamics, why "bringing your whole self to work" is more complicated than it sounds, and how leaders can defuse tension before it escalates into conflict. Plus, they share practical advice on when to step in, how to stay grounded, and why company values only matter if they're actually lived.
Top 3 Takeaways
Stay grounded before you go in. The worst thing you can do is walk into a difficult conversation without being centered. Know your own triggers and emotional state first — then you can actually listen.
Call out the conversation for what it is. Name it: "We are talking about a difficult topic." Being direct about what's happening — the situation, the behavior, what you're seeing — takes the ambiguity out and makes the conversation manageable.
Values are only real when they're lived. Words on a wall mean nothing if they're not enforced, referenced in decisions, and modeled by leadership. When you break with a value, be radically transparent about why.
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by Hi, the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, and of course it's Thursday today, so this is our regular Thursday interview series. If you like to keep abreast of the latest news and love a good agony aunt segment, then you're going to love Tuesday episodes where we bring you our weekly news roundup, a brand new segment called Hot Takes with our bank of workplace experts, and of course our world-famous weekly Workplace Surgery where I put your questions To Leanne.
Leanne ElliottThursdays are all about expert guests and incredible conversations, and today's episode is no exception. We are talking about how to have difficult conversations with 2 phenomenal experts in the world of people and culture. Kathleen Troyer is CEO and lead consultant of Jigsaw Solutions Inc., where she manages all aspects of running a consulting company focused on leadership development, talent management, and business and people strategies. Her superpower is helping businesses to understand the connection between strong leadership, engaged employees, and company success. We're also thrilled to welcome Liz Bronson. Liz is a global professional in human resources. Her career has been dedicated to creating and sustaining transparent and supportive cultures that foster inclusivity, connection, and authentic communication. Why? To improve company and individual performance. Between them, they have worked with some of the world's best-known companies, including Barclays Global Investors, VMware, Thrivecart, Cloudera, and Spirent, to name just a few. Kat and Liz are also co-hosts of Real Job Talk podcast, where they share practical advice for mid-career professionals.
Al ElliottSo, let's go and meet Kat Troyer and Liz Bronson from the Real Job Talk podcast.
Experts Kathleen TroyerWell, my name is Kathleen Nelson Troyer. I go by Kat, um, and I am a leadership coach, an executive coach. I work with companies and support leaders in being the best leaders they can be. So I am, I'm famous for pushing the leaders I work with to have the essential and often uncomfortable conversations. And the other thing I'm famous for in my little community here of El Granada, California, which is about 25 miles south of San Francisco, right on the coast, is I have a tripod dog who only has 3 legs. So I am seen walking her at least a couple times a day.
Liz BronsonSo my name is Liz Bronson. I live in Austin, Texas, but have lived in San Francisco area, as well as I'm from Boston. I'm an HR leader. I probably would say I specialize in startups, so helping startups grow. And I'm famous for being really focused on human employee experiences and making sure that I build programming to support employees as human beings.
Al ElliottIt's been quite a tough few years. The economy has been volatile, and the bosses who were making job cuts became the enemy. There's been so much more talk of generational differences too, whether boomers or Gen Xers like me are the enemy. And of course, radical politics, where someone who doesn't quite agree with you is also the enemy. But of course, in the workplace, generally speaking, we get a total mix of beliefs, religions, ages, and outlooks on life. So how has this affected our way of working? Are we all at war with each other? Leanne asked Liz for her take on it, and then Kat adds some great points.
Liz BronsonSo, the workplace has been forever changed by just the ups and downs in the economy. Think of in startup land, 2021 brought growth with all costs, and then 2022 to '23 was cut at all costs. People don't feel secure in their workplaces. Every conversation is, and if I'll get laid off next week. So, there's this economic piece, and then there's the political piece and this doom and gloom. And if you turn on the news, there's just—
Al ElliottYeah.
Liz BronsonBad after bad after bad after bad and global conflicts and World War III and all of these things. And I just think we're all not okay. We're unsettled. We're insecure in all parts of our lives.
Experts Kathleen TroyerYeah.
Liz BronsonAnd that comes into the workplace where you've got people that are trying to do their best and trying to bring their full selves, and they've got all of these outside forces kind of looming on their shoulders. And I think that's affected everyone in every facet of their life.
Experts Kathleen TroyerI couldn't have said that any better, Liz. I do think that as a result of all of this kind of chaos in our external world, right, that people are coming into work just a little bit, in some cases a little bit, and in some cases quite a bit more anxious. And I think that it's important for company leaders and HR people to, to really understand that and to do their best to create an environment and a work culture that is psychologically safe. And so that means maybe having some ground rules, maybe being an open listener when someone comes to you with some issues and being perhaps nonjudgmental, right? Letting someone feel safe with you.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Experts Kathleen TroyerAnd then offering advice that is aligned with your company culture. And so, that's going to be a little bit different for everyone. So, I think it's important for people who— I think it's important on the front end of the job search to make sure that you as an employee are aligned with the values of the company. Because I think that that is going to make a better experience for a better employee.
Leanne ElliottCan I ask you a bit more about that then, Kath? Has the workplace, from what you've seen, become more polarized over the last few years? Because I think anecdotally it seems to be the case, but in terms of, of your experience over, you know, the past 10, 15 years, are we more polarized? And does that make it easier or harder for applicants choosing the right workplace and workplace culture for them?
Experts Kathleen TroyerI think that the world in general is more polarized, so The micro piece of that is that, yes, that does show up into the workplaces, right? And so I think, again, it goes to the leaders to try to make the workplace safe for people and to be aware that, yes, they're employees at work, but there may be other things going on in their life outside of the political chaos. There may be some personal issues. So, to leave room to have policies like, if you're not feeling great today, take the day off. That's okay. Or if it's not a good time to have one of those challenging conversations, if you've got a meeting that you're just not in the right headspace for, to have a company culture that says, you know what? Can we reschedule this meeting?
Leanne ElliottRight.
Experts Kathleen TroyerBecause the worst thing is to go into one of those important conversations and to not be grounded, to not be yourself, I think that if we're not bringing ourselves grounded to a situation when we are more anxious, it's going to make for rougher conversations. So I think the company culture, it's important to support and to be aware that yes, emotions are elevated often and to make more room for that and to acknowledge it and to create a safer space.
Liz BronsonI want to jump in there. think that the workplace is more polarized or politicized than it was. I just think that we're more aware of what's going on. And like, think about the olden days, pre-internet. You'd be doing your workday and you're doing your work, and it wasn't until you were driving home and heard on the radio that something had happened politically.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Liz BronsonNow, I think, you know, in hearing you both, I'm thinking about like on January 6th, Of 2021, when people stormed the Capitol here in the US. And I got a call from the leader at one of the leaders I was working with. I was consulting at the time and he's like, what should I do? I said, be honest. And he sent a company-wide Slack, like, I can't concentrate today. My eyes are glued to this. I don't expect anyone else is really bringing their best selves to work. This is unprecedented. And just owned it and like kind of let everybody off the hook. And sadly, we're having more days like that. I feel like in the news cycle.
Experts Kathleen TroyerMm-hmm.
Liz BronsonBut to understand that sometimes someone checks the news at lunchtime and their world is rocked, it's a different thing than used to happen in the workplace. So we have to acknowledge, especially something like January 6th that was so humongous, that that's going to alter your workday. And just owning it and allowing the outside in a little bit.
Leanne ElliottIt does seem like Some of the most outrageous things in history have happened over the last 5 years, but maybe everyone thinks that. I wanted to dig a little more into this with Kat and Liz. How do external events and distressing news affect us in the workplace? Are we potentially creating conflict at work? The majority of people listening will, will associate with that, seeing something in the news that makes them anxious, whether it is, you say, whether it be January 6th, whether it have been the recent, you know, news we're seeing out of the Middle East, there's lots to— there's lots to be anxious about. How does that translate into workplace dynamics, though? I mean, what types of conflicts are we seeing more of as a result of this heightened anxiety?
Liz BronsonI don't know that I've seen more conflict in the workplace, in the places that I've worked. I've Seen more where leaders or people feel like they have to say their beliefs or their piece. And our role as— Kat's an HR and leadership consultant, I'm an HR leader— is to be like, make sure your message can be taken in by anyone on either side as understanding and thinking about who is in your audience. It's your people. Your people have a wide variety of— hopefully you want a diverse workplace, so they have A higher variety of beliefs. And so, what you're saying is we're supporting our people, all of them, and every person, no matter what their political leanings are, or their feelings of whatever's happening in today's news cycle, feel safe in our environment. And let's build bridges to say, you know, we agree that people should be treated kindly and fairly, and people have a right to safety. You can't be on either side of a conflict and think, Oh no, those people shouldn't be safe, right? So thinking about where can we come together and agree, and as leaders saying everyone has a right to feel safe, both in this workplace as well as in our world, or things like that.
Leanne ElliottSo with that in mind, we, we have the, the US election coming up very shortly. I've already seen in the media and forums, HR forums, you know, people starting to think already about how they're going to manage The fallout of whatever way the election goes. I mean, with that in mind, have you, have you seen any, um, examples in the workplace where politics, a big election, has disrupted team dynamics?
Experts Kathleen TroyerI have someone who's very close to me, I'm not going to name names, who works for a large, a very large, uh, well-established technology company whose, uh, CEO is, uh, very much supporting one of the candidates. The team perhaps is on the other side. So, there are team conversations. So, in that respect, I think it is a little disruptive because it does take away from the essential work.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Experts Kathleen TroyerBut I'm also grateful that they have the forum to be able to decompress and to express themselves. So, I do think that there are That's probably not uncommon that people are discussing it more. And hopefully, you know, hopefully people are able to navigate and not, you know, not be too divisive in the process.
Liz BronsonAnd I do think it's different when you have a CEO or outspoken leader that is solidly behind one candidate or another. And then you have to make a personal choice. Is this someone who I want as my leader? Yes or no? And which can then trickle down into a less diversified workplace and all of that. But that's that leader's choice to be that outspoken and, and things like that. So it can come up in that kind of fashion for sure.
Leanne ElliottAs a leader, where do you draw the line between this is just good conversation for, you know, relationship building, camaraderie, versus this is actually disrupting the workday?
Liz BronsonI think The word that you're saying, disrupting. So if people are sitting around and having a conversation and things are just going and they're eating their lunch and doing the thing, cool. And then if things start getting heated or things start getting, well, I'm not working with you if you, you know, whatever. I'm being dramatic, but like, then it's gotta, you know what, everyone, let's all take a minute. It sounds like we've come to a point where we're having different opinions. Remember, we're all on the same team.
Al ElliottYeah.
Liz BronsonWe all want to move this project forward, and our differing viewpoints is what makes us successful, but let's table this conversation because this isn't going in a productive place.
Leanne ElliottIt sounds like what you're saying, there's ways for leaders to defuse the situation if it is starting to escalate.
Al ElliottAbsolutely.
Leanne ElliottI guess, again, when's the point where defusion is no longer working and a more difficult conversation is needed?
Liz BronsonAnd I would say it does. It's not up to a leader necessarily. Like, everyone's sitting around the lunchroom and all of a sudden colleagues are getting heated. A peer can say, whoa, you know, anyone can stop and turn the tide, you know, and make a joke like, oh, how about, how about them 49ers? Like, just stop it and move on. It doesn't take a leader to do it. It takes an interpersonal leader, but not a titled leader.
Experts Kathleen TroyerYeah.
Liz Bronsonleader to do that.
Experts Kathleen TroyerYeah. It may be, it may be that you say to a couple coworkers who are, you know, normally work very well together, say, hey, listen, I know you two respect each other and maybe you just need to agree to disagree on this one because, you know, this is getting elevated and, you know, we don't want that. And we know we respect each other.
Liz BronsonRight.
Experts Kathleen TroyerRemind them, remind them that they do respect each other and that, hey, they're, They have differences of opinions and that's okay. But let's focus on the task at hand. And there's no perfect way to do this. This is tough stuff.
Leanne ElliottYes.
Experts Kathleen TroyerBut I think having the dialogue and encouraging people to move forward in a way that's compassionate for each other and respectful is going to be so much more effective than not saying anything, pretending it isn't happening, or stoking the fires. It could be very easy to stoke the fires in this situation because everyone has opinions, but stoking the fires aren't— it isn't going to help. And the way to move forward is to build bridges, as Liz said earlier.
Liz BronsonI also just think that we have to remind people sometimes that like, whoa, this isn't the time or the place. And so sometimes when things are escalating, it's like, Wait a minute, we're all here to do a job. We have XYZ project that we're moving forward. Like, we need to put that aside, put our differences aside and focus on XYZ and really bring it back to the work that's getting done. Our customers need us, or this needs us, or that needs us. And this is not helping us be productive and get our jobs done. So we're going to pivot here. So just to put, put, put the issue in timeout kind of thing. And then I would probably follow that up with individual conversations.
Experts Kathleen TroyerMm-hmm.
Liz BronsonOf, I know this is important to you. I understand there are 2 sides to every story, and this person's life experience brings them to their side. Your experience brings it to your side. And, but you've always worked well together. You've always, you're both, you know, great at, you know, one thing or another. Um, and so just diffuse it in the moment and then diffuse it again separately. But some things we don't bring up at work because of exactly what you're saying, Leanne. It's just, it's a tinderbox. And that said, people have the right to bring their full selves to work. When I hear about people masking who they really are and not being their true selves because they don't feel safe, that's a company-wide problem.
Al ElliottAfter this short break, Leanne asks Liz and Kat exactly how and when we should be having difficult conversations, and whether bringing your whole self to work is actually a good idea.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast, that's Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of Politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. Welcome back. So let's dig into this idea of bringing your whole self to work. For example, what if your colleagues are very conservative and you're not? Should you be hiding your pride flag behind a door? Should you laugh along with the jokes even if they're about your chosen religion? Being authentic at work will almost inevitably lead to tough conversations. So how do we actually handle them? Let's rejoin the interview with Liz, Leanne, and Kat.
Leanne ElliottSo given today's climate, what, what does bringing your whole self to work actually mean? I'm sure it's a phrase that leaders hear 5 times a day and probably think, I'm not entirely sure what that means. From an HR perspective, from an organizational life perspective, what does it mean to allow your or enable your staff to bring their whole selves to work?
Experts Kathleen TroyerIt's allowing yourself to be authentic. And so, it's okay to say, hey, we're on different sides. I see this differently than you, but I respect your opinion.
Liz BronsonFor example, I'm obviously in the mid-career or what have you, or maybe later career.
Experts Kathleen TroyerI'm a mom.
Liz BronsonI'm also a Jewish woman. So, I bring myself, and I'm not an Orthodox Jewish woman, but I am Jewish and I bring myself to work as a Jewish person, and I may need the high holidays off. And so, do I feel safe saying I need to take off for Rosh Hashanah when everybody else is working and to out myself in that way? Now, my identity can be masked. I'm a white woman. You don't have to know what my religion is, right? Versus someone with a different skin color or something like that. But do I feel safe declaring that I'm different in some way? And do I think that there will be backlash for that?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Liz BronsonThe answer has to be, in my opinion, no. And that would be the same if I was a trans woman, or if I was a gay woman, or any of these other identities that we can put on, no matter what they are.
Leanne ElliottHow does that work the other way? How does that work if I'm more conservative in my views? If I'm not comfortable with, with pro-choice? If I'm thrilled that Roe v. Wade got overturned, how do I bring that aspect of myself to work? Or is it a different role for People who are more conservative?
Liz BronsonSo, I love that you asked that because it's not. I should also be able to come— I tend to be more liberal myself, but I— so, I'll give you an example. I was at a company when Roe v. Wade got overturned and my CEO felt passionately and I loved personally that passion. But what was written at the time was quite pro-choice. And I said, oh, no, no, no, no. We've got to pull this back so that anyone reading this feels comfortable. And so, what it turned into was, we support our people, we support people making their own decisions, and if you need time off, if you need something, we will support that. So, we were supportive. Let's just say the original draft was a little more leaning one direction. The draft was, this is a huge change for our country, and we respect everyone's rights as individuals.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Liz Bronsonto feel how they feel and do what they have to do, and we'll support you. So you could say that's still a little bit leaning one way, but I didn't want— I knew we had conservative people in our team, and I didn't want them reading it feeling othered. And I think that's the line. The line is that anyone on your team reading it is not going to feel excluded or like they have to hide who they are.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Liz BronsonThat does not mean, you know, everyone's cubicles have pro-choice or pro-life flags on it.
Leanne ElliottSo why is that different?
Liz BronsonBecause it's extraneous. Like, we can all have our political beliefs and our values and all of those things. We don't need to scream them from the rooftops so that some— that they're saying clash—
Leanne Elliottthat clash—
Liz BronsonI'm banging my fists together, but that clashes We're inviting clash.
Leanne ElliottSo then another example, then I know some offices will decorate their office for Pride Month. What about the people who, again, more conservative side, who, who feel uncomfortable with that? Is it okay that offices then decorate for Pride?
Experts Kathleen TroyerI think that whenever, whenever there's an issue that's divisive, there, there is, and, and that, that people have strong opinions on that, right? I think that a pride flag is okay. But I think if someone has has a hard time with it, that should be addressed and say, you know, it's— and explain how the company culture is, right? And say, I'm sorry you're uncomfortable with that, but we do feel like this is okay for them because that is bringing their full self. And they're not, you know, especially if they're not— if it's just a flag on their cubicle or outside their door, it's not like they're in the office.
Liz BronsonRight.
Experts Kathleen Troyerreally creating fights. So I think that compassion and empathy play a really strong role in navigating these challenging issues. And if the company is inclusive and encourages people to be compassionate to other people's views, that is going to make for a less conflict environment.
Al ElliottYeah.
Experts Kathleen TroyerWhich ideally, that's what we want because life is There's so much conflict outside of work right now in the world. So I think that companies really need to understand that and to have some policies in place that will support a peaceful workplace.
Liz BronsonI also think with pride, that's also about bringing your— being able to be yourself and not hide who you are. I don't want a conservative person to not be able to say I'm conservative and to get fired for it, just like I wouldn't want someone to come out as gay and get fired for it.
Leanne ElliottRight.
Liz BronsonThere's a different— so it's, there's a way of saying you're safe to work here. And if you're not going to make your colleagues feel safe to work with you because you're so against their lifestyle, maybe this isn't the place for you. And I'm perfectly okay with that. And it goes both ways, right? So that said, I don't believe companies should force everyone to go to the Pride Parade. If you don't want to go, don't go. If you want to go, we're going because we're demonstrating that we're open and inclusive. So there's a difference between allowing people to bring their full selves and screaming it in people's face and forcing it. And so, and it's also like, part of your full self may be your beliefs on different ideas, but those don't need to be screamed versus like, I'm masking and pretending to be more feminine than I am so I can fit in. Like, There is a difference there between keeping an opinion to yourself versus being a different person. And I think that's the line for me.
Leanne ElliottWhen do we need to maybe sit down more formally and have an uncomfortable conversation?
Experts Kathleen TroyerI think Liz, Liz kind of spoke to it earlier. You know, how disruptive is the, is the situation to the workplace? When it starts to become disruptive, you have to, you have to sit down. And call a meeting. I had one HR director who was called into a meeting. It was essentially a values and behavior kind of thing, just maybe not completely aligned with the company culture. Someone who was maybe a little bit more direct and brusque than the company culture that That is kind of a polite company culture. So, she looked at me because she knows that I do these conversations. And she just looked at me. She said, can you please translate for me? She's, can you please translate, Kathleen? And I said, I bluntly said to her, you're being too brusque with employees. And that's the issue here.
Liz BronsonYeah.
Experts Kathleen TroyerAnd sometimes you need to directly say what's going on and not sugarcoat it. And so I gave her a few examples and she nodded and was like, okay, thank you.
Liz BronsonThat's the way to go. So if you're sitting down for an uncomfortable conversation, call out, we are talking about this. We want resolution. We want to be supportive. So set some ground rules, but this is what we're talking about. This is the problem. When you add too much fluff to the, this is the problem, people are going to hear all kinds of different things. You want your message to be really, really clear and really direct.
Experts Kathleen TroyerThis is the situation. This is the behavior. This is what we're seeing. And this, this is what's more aligned with our company culture. And this is what we want to see. Questions, discussion, and then, and then let them talk. Have the conversation. If you don't want to have the conversation, that is a signal that it's probably a conversation that you need to have.
Leanne ElliottIf there's an employee listening who's thinking, I'm pretty sure that, you know, a meeting with HR, which is always a bit ominous, is basically just— it's the first step in them sacking me, kicking me out the door. Is that true? Are scary HR conversations just a layer before being let go?
Experts Kathleen TroyerDepends on the situation. It depends on the situation, right? Hopefully, the first conversation is a verbal conversation and there's nothing even written. But it depends on the situation. Sometimes, a verbal warning is not enough. You need to put something in writing. But hopefully, you start with conversations. And explain what the behavior is and what you'd like to see differently. Throw in some things that the person's doing right too, because people respond just better. If you're just coming from criticizing, it's not going to land as well as, hey, you're doing this great and this, but we've really got to focus over here.
Liz BronsonI think it depends on how you're running your HR department, right? You can run it as the doom and gloom department, or you can run it as the employee engagement, employee support, but protecting the company. So yeah, you're called in and HR is there and you are talking with your manager and HR or your HR leader or whomever about behavior that has to change. Yeah, that's serious. And yes, you could get sacked if you continue it because if you're making someone in your group feel uncomfortable because you're saying that you don't agree with their lifestyle and who they are and they need to change, Yep, you're probably— this is the warning. But it's on the HR person to be really clear of, this is your warning. We do not— we have a code of conduct here. We do not tolerate hate, anti-anybody behavior, XYZ. And this is your warning. And if you do it again, we're going to have to let you go because we cannot tolerate that. Yeah, you better take that seriously that you Are on your way to being sacked. But if it's a coaching conversation, if it's like, hey, we've noticed that you tend to be too abrupt and employees are kind of shocked. Let's work together. Here are some things you can try. That's a coaching conversation. It's not as egregious. But if someone's telling you, you better change or get kicked out, you need to listen. Communication is the key to change management. Communication is the key to culture. Communication is the key to a lot of things. And so many people now are like, I just don't know, fill in the blank. Why? Because it wasn't communicated. If you're making a business shift, you're changing the product, you're buying a company, and people don't know why, that sets them up for being uncomfortable.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Liz BronsonSo when you're thinking of something that's changing, it could be you're changing your HRIS platform. It can be basics or it can be business direction. Your communication strategy has to go along with whatever change you're making, or you're going to have that discomfort. And then that's where you get problems.
Experts Kathleen TroyerI encourage leaders I work with to be as transparent as possible. And that, again, there's some gray area there. There are things that leaders should not share with employees. There are certain things that need to be kept confidential within a leadership team. Leadership conflict should be kept confidential and dealt with internally. And that's whenever I'm working with a leadership team that has conflict and the rest of the team does not know, that is a success because they are managing constructively.
Liz BronsonRight.
Experts Kathleen TroyerSo, I do think that you— so, I say just be as transparent as you possibly can be without adding stress to your people because they have enough stress. And I think that that's a good way to make that decision. And also aligning with values, making decisions based on values is incredibly important. Values are meant to be guideposts. And the companies that actually use them the way that they're meant to be are so much more Now, this is a bit interesting because Leanne has taught me that culture is based on company values.
Al ElliottSo here's a question: if you mandate a certain way of behaving with these agreed values, can you use this as a kind of guideline for behaviour, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottYeah, values can definitely be used to guide, guide behaviour, but how successful this is will depend on how well the values are followed and supported by everyone, and especially leaders. This really does from the top down. In the last 10 years, there's lots of psychologists and behavioral scientists like John Amici, Amy Edmondson, and Brené Brown who have shared really important ideas on how values can shape a company's culture. I'll run through them briefly, Al, but let's start with John Amici. You know how I feel about John Amici. His definition of culture is my absolute favorite. John defines culture as the worst behaviors tolerated, and that behavior-based values only work when leaders actually live by them. It's not enough to just talk about values like respect or inclusion. Leaders have to show them in everything they do. If leaders do act in line with the company's values, employees are more likely to do the same. But if leaders don't practice what they preach, it can lead to distrust and people may start ignoring the values. In John Amici's view, values guide behavior only when employees trust that leadership is serious about them. Amy Edmondson, psychological safety— possibly one of the most famous psychologists in the world right now. Amy talks about psychological safety, which is crucial for making values work. So this means that people need to feel safe to speak up, share ideas, or make mistakes without fear of getting into trouble. When employees feel supported, they're more likely to follow values like openness, teamwork, and creativity because they know it's okay to take risks. If a company just sets values but doesn't create a safe space for people to act on them, then those values may feel more like rules to follow rather than principles for people to live by. And finally, Brené Brown. I know both Kat and Liz are huge fans of Brené Brown. She talks about vulnerability in leadership and highlights the power that it has. She says that when leaders are willing to be vulnerable, like admitting mistakes or being open to feedback. They create cultures where values like trust and honesty thrive. Employees are more likely to follow values when they see their leaders being real and authentic. Brené's point is that values aren't just rules. They become part of the company's culture when leaders are willing to share their human side. So yes, absolutely, values can guide behavior, but only when leaders set the example, people feel safe to live those values, and learning is part of the culture. When these 3 things come together, values guide behavior and ultimately define our culture.
Al ElliottThat makes sense, and I'm loving the name-dropping you're doing there, Leigh. John O'Meachas has been on the podcast, and we are working on the other 2, don't you worry. Now, Leanne asked Liz and Kat about their take on company values and how they can help to guide behavior at work.
Liz BronsonValues are great words on a wall, but if they're not lived and they're not enforced and they're not part of decision-making, they're useless. So, I think there's lots of ways to Reinforce the values and bring them into conversation. And, and something that I've done that's simple at companies is put in a Living Our Values Awards where anyone can catch anyone living our values and nominate them for the award. And it just reinforces kind of that DNA. Or we've made this decision to acquire this company and we've leaned into our values of growth.
Al ElliottHmm.
Liz BronsonYou know, at all costs, whatever. I'm making it up. But I think that bringing it into the conversation, bringing it into the leadership conversation, having it as part of performance reviews, having it as part of promotions, like weaving it into the fabric of the company, or we decided this because of our value of this. So you just have to have it as part of the conversation.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Liz BronsonThat's kind of the critical piece. And also, I think you have to highlight when you lean into a value to not do something.
Experts Kathleen TroyerBeing as transparent as possible with those decisions. We made this decision. We said yes on this because of this. We decided to avoid this because of this. The more leaders can share transparently what's going on behind the scenes, The better, because then people will understand why decisions are made. And also, it acts like a bridge as opposed to something divisive.
Liz BronsonBut I think that a huge mistake that companies do is they have these values and then they completely ignore them. You say that one of your values is kindness and you just kicked Jim out on his booty because he looked at you funny. You're not kind. So when we do things and make decisions that are in conflict with our values, that puts a spotlight and that leads to inauthenticity and that breaks down trust and breaks down the conversation. So values have to be core to what you're doing.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Liz BronsonAnd when you break with your values, if there's a reason you have to be, as Kat said, super Super transparent about it because you will get called out.
Experts Kathleen TroyerI've been in leadership retreats where a mentor of mine brought me to a leadership retreat when I was first getting into leadership coaching with a client that I've been working with for 13 years. And one of the things he had, it was the partners, one of the things he had them do was to tell each other a couple of things that they're very grateful for each other for. And then one thing that they would like to maybe see different. And that was a really interesting conversation to be an observer with. And I learned a lot from that. So I think that it's about opening the dialogue and coming back to, this is the common reason why we're here. And these are our values.
Al ElliottYeah.
Experts Kathleen Troyerof inclusion and moving that conversation forward. And I think that if leaders are doing it, then that teaches them to do that with their people. And that's in alignment. And it's when the values are not in alignment, people will call it out. And I think that even with— I see that happening even more and more with the younger generation, right? The people that are new to the workforce, they're not afraid to say, to call, to call something out. And so that has really made some changes, I think, in the workplace.
Liz BronsonKat and I are big fans of Brené Brown, and she talks about rumbling a lot. I'm all for a good rumble. Like, let's call it out and get it on the table fast. And no, and at the key to a good rumble is at the beginning you say, our goal here is fill in the blank. And so each side has this shared goal that they want to get to. And so you work through the problem and there's a lot of problem solution work that can be done to nip things in the bud and to get everybody on the same page again. But I love, like, I mean, that exercise that Kat just said that shows huge psychological safety, but reminding people we're here for the betterment of the organization. We're here to help our customers. We're here for this. This is our Shared thing. But I love the exercise. When you've got conflict, go around the room and say something, you know, or put everyone's name and write something nice about everybody in the room, something kind, something you admire. It just retrains the brain from, oh, I can't stand Jim, to like, oh yeah, Jim like shared his lunch with me and that was so nice. Like, he's really kind and thoughtful. So That reframing to get out of the conflict mindset and also bringing everyone together in problem-solution mode gets everyone on the same page again, can be really helpful.
Experts Kathleen TroyerI watched these leaders and some of them had some conflict with each other, right? That was one of the reasons for this retreat. And I watched them, just looked at their eyes and watched them soften when their colleagues told them, hey, I see you and I appreciate you for this. And I think it very much helped their relationship. And I think those sort of things are seen as fluff, right, from some people. Oh, that's a snowflake way to approach that. But I think that these are real relationships that we have and we spend so much time at work. And where we can, the more we can trust our team members and appreciate our team members, the more effective we're going to be.
Liz BronsonYeah.
Experts Kathleen TroyerAs a company. So, it's a good thing to—
Leanne Elliottit's a good thing.
Experts Kathleen TroyerYes, it may be uncomfortable to have some real conversations. Okay, I'm not— and I'm the first person. I mean, I spend most of my time encouraging people and helping people map out these conversations. But I know that personally, when I have to have an uncomfortable conversation, I'm not immune to to the anxiety or the other feelings that come up. It's actually much easier to coach someone to have an uncomfortable conversation than to have one myself. But luckily, I can coach myself or I can call Liz or someone else on my personal board of advisors and say, hey, I've got this situation and I need some help here. I'm kind of nervous. Help me out here. Because we're not objective with ourselves. We need to have people to talk to and to decompress with.
Leanne ElliottSo far, we've talked about how to have difficult conversations, but can you actually avoid them altogether if an organization is more aligned to your values?
Liz BronsonWe also, in both the UK and here, there's free choice. I don't have to work. I'll just say, I don't have to work for Elon Musk if I don't choose to apply to those jobs or choose to go for those jobs. Right? At the same time, I don't have to work for Planned Parenthood either. This isn't a place where I'm assigned a workplace and I have no choice. So leaders, if they don't want to be inclusive, they have the right to do that. And I have the right not to work there.
Experts Kathleen TroyerThat's where doing research upfront on the company you're choosing to work for is so essential. Because you want to make sure your values are aligned with the company values. And you want to ask questions in the interview. And we have several episodes on our podcast, Real Job Talk, that address those type of things.
Liz BronsonResearch where does the company donate to. Often you can see that. There are places that if they're donating to certain places, I'm not interested, especially as an HR person upholding culture. But okay. That's your choice, but you don't get to choose to work with me.
Leanne ElliottHow does that impact inclusion though? Because then are we going to get then certain types of people that are going to now, you know, now get certain types of companies and then in itself create divide? Are we going to have liberal companies and conservative companies?
Experts Kathleen TroyerLeanne, I think that it's not necessarily a black and white. I think that there's so much gray here, um, but certainly in, in the US, there are, there are companies that are known for being very conservative. And there are companies that are known for being very liberal. And there are companies that maybe are more in the middle. And I think that, again, that comes down to choice and doing your research beforehand. I think that remembering we have choice helps us. We are all CEOs of our own career and our own lives. And being clear who we are and making sure that we are working for a company that at least appears to be aligned with our values is going to be helpful. And asking questions about what's the company's stance on psychological safety? That's okay to ask. Find out what initiatives they do because that can tell you a lot about a company.
Al ElliottWe have talked about how to have difficult conversations, but how about getting the support for this? Do we need a dedicated HR person? And at what stage, as leaders and owners, do we need to start thinking about this? Kat and Liz have some pretty strong opinions about this, and I'll be honest, they did surprise me a bit.
Liz BronsonI think every single CEO, from a seed startup to— until they have their own team, needs to have an HR phone-a-friend for just what you're talking about. And so, if they don't have someone that they can go to and trust, and they like how they think, and they advise, and all of those things, Because we're all different and we all have different ways we advise. So, someone that they can trust as an advisor, they need to have one because that is the person that's going to help them through that sticky situation. And frankly, have that advisor to help them set up the basics. And you've got 30 people, you're going to need an HR phone-a-friend if you don't have someone on staff. So, that's my advice to them.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Liz BronsonFind a friend.
Experts Kathleen TroyerYeah, at 30 people, there's definitely an argument to have an internal person who at least manages the operational function of HR. But I agree with Liz in that it's important to have someone who has sat in the role and is an expert to be able to advise you. And that's— every leader should have someone who is coaching them, whether it is an official coaching Or they've got a highly developed personal board of advisors with different people that they reach out to for different leadership issues. We cannot do this alone as leaders.
Liz BronsonAnd having a transactional HR person that runs payroll or whatnot is very different from having a strategic HR leader that you can call and pay by the hour.
Al ElliottSo that's how to have difficult conversations at work. The key things that I learned really were. Number 1, that conflict is natural and nothing new, but kindness and compassion diffuses almost any conflict. Number 2 is our jobs as leaders and crafters of culture is to allow anyone to have a strong opinion, but not force their opinion on others. Having solid values that everyone agrees with, as Leanne said, can help massively here. And finally, yes, we probably do need some HR help, even if we're only 5 people, but that doesn't actually have to break the bank. Leanne, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottI think it's important that we recognize that there is and has been a lot of stress outside of the workplace for the past few years, and that tension is going to start creeping into our world of work. So I think acknowledging that people are bringing these stresses into work can help us create safer spaces for conversations and maybe also breed a bit of that empathy and compassion that, that you were talking about, Al. Use your company values. Values aren't just posters on the wall, and I, I love it when other people say it because I wonder if you'll believe them if you don't believe me. Uh, when conversations get really tough, leaning into those shared values, as Liz and Kat explained, can be really, really helpful. They can help keep things focused and productive and on track. I think finally, you know, just the importance of— and in terms of leadership— of being proactive and being honest. Address conflicts early before they get bigger. If there's one takeaway for me in terms of when you should have a difficult conversation, it's Kat's advice. The more uncomfortable you are about having that conversation, the more important it is that you, you have it. Um, in fact, it's probably a sign that you probably should have had it already.
Al ElliottAbsolutely love that bit. It's absolute gold. Before we go, here's how to hear more gold from Kat and Liz.
Leanne ElliottAnd if our listeners want to check out your podcast to find out more about you, where should they go?
Liz BronsonWe're at Real Job Talk. .com. Um, and then our LinkedIns are our individual names, so I'm Liz Bronson and Kathleen Nelson Troyer.
Leanne ElliottDo go and follow Liz and Kat on LinkedIn, subscribe to their podcast, it's brilliant. And while you're there, also subscribe to the Nerd Journey podcast from Nick and John. It was actually them who introduced us to, to Kat and Liz and gave us this opportunity for such an incredible interview. So a big shout out and thank you to them. We'll leave all the links for them in the show notes as well. That is all for today. A quick reminder, if you like to hear stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then every Thursday we bring you an amazing guest or guests with amazing stories.
Al ElliottAnd if you like to keep up to date with the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt segment, then tune in next Tuesday. We'll bring you more of our weekly news roundup, our brand new segment called Hot Takes, and of course, our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Leah, can these people go yet, or have you got more to say?
Leanne ElliottUm, subscribe, like, review. Thanks.
Al ElliottBye-bye. See you soon.
Liz BronsonBye-bye.
Leanne ElliottAlex, it's your go. I speak, you speak, remember?
Al ElliottDaddy's recording. Creepy.
Leanne ElliottLiz is a global professional—
Al ElliottSee, it's not as easy as you thought, is it?
Leanne ElliottI was on quite a roll then as well. Shame.
Al ElliottSo let's go and meet— oops. So let's go and meet Kate. His name's not Kate. And at what stage as leaders and owners do we need to start thinking about a dedicated HR person.
Leanne ElliottChrist.
Al ElliottAnd if you like to keep abreast of the latest news and love good—
Leanne ElliottI like to keep abreast. In fact, I have 2.
Al ElliottAnd if you like to keep abreast— I've done it again. And if you like to keep up—
Leanne ElliottYou can say abreast.
Al ElliottI can't. You're gonna make me laugh. And if you like to keep, to keep And if you like to keep up to date with the latest news and love a good Agony Aunt segment, then