Episode 183 · 27 March 2025 · 49:46
Does the 4-day work week really work? with Jeanette Ramsden, CEO at The Curve Group
Featuring Jeanette Ramsden
Does the 4-day work week really work? with Jeanette Ramsden, CEO at The Curve Group
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Meet Jeanette Ramsden, CEO of The Curve Group
How The Curve Group made the move to 35-hour weeks
Pay, pro-rata, and the part-time trap
interview#pay#pro-rata#part-time
Planning for the change: client coverage and the leap of faith
The downsides nobody talks about
Retention, applications, and the real motivator
interview#retention#applications#motivation
Role modelling flexibility and caregiving
The 60-hour week backlash
interview#60-hour-week#backlash#work-culture
Government employment reforms — and why Jeanette's worried
Advice for leaders considering reduced hours
interview#advice#leaders#reduced-hours
What Jeanette wants The Curve Group to be remembered for
interview#legacy#company-culture#values
Why HR leaders can't afford to be generalists
interview#hr#generalist#boardroom
The future of the 4-day week
interview#future-of-work#4-day-week#trends
Show notes
Does the 4-Day Work Week Really Work? — with Jeanette Ramsden
Guest: Jeanette Ramsden — CEO of The Curve Group, a UK-based HR and recruitment consultancy that has moved its entire workforce to a flexible 35-hour working week.
The 4-day work week is the workplace trend everyone's talking about — but what does it actually look like in practice? Jeanette Ramsden didn't just trial it. She did it.
Jeanette joins Al and Leanne to share the real-world reality of ditching the traditional five-day week: how she managed client expectations, recalculated holiday entitlements, and kept salaries the same while cutting hours. She explains why genuine flexibility — rather than simply giving everyone Friday off — is the key to making reduced hours work, especially for employees juggling caregiving responsibilities.
They also dig into how cutting hours actually boosted productivity and retention at The Curve Group, why Jeanette pushes back on the "presenteeism" mindset creeping back into big tech, and her concerns about the government's employment rights reforms. Plus, why she believes HR leaders need to stop being generalists and take their rightful seat in the boardroom.
Top 3 Takeaways
Fewer hours doesn't mean less output — if you measure results, not time. The Curve Group reduced working hours from 40 to 35 with no reduction in salary. The key? Shifting from presenteeism to trusting people to deliver on outputs, not on hours logged.
Flexibility has to be genuine, not performative. Simply giving everyone Friday off isn't flexibility — it's just a different rigid structure. Real flexibility means designing work around people's lives, including caregiving responsibilities, and asking for flexibility in return when clients need you.
The 4-day week is becoming a retention weapon. In a competitive talent market, reduced hours are a powerful differentiator. As Jeanette puts it, unless you can make your offer compelling, you'll lose your best people to organisations that can.
More From Jeanette Ramsden
- Jeanette Ramsden on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jeanette-ramsden-0946a83
- The Curve Group website: thecurvegroup.co.uk
- Insights and webinars from The Curve Group: thecurvegroup.co.uk/insights
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Jeanette RamsdenI was one of the first to sort of adopt the 4-day working week, but actually we're 35-hour flexible working week, and that's taking the 4-day working week to the next level again. And we've seen no dip in performance whatsoever. There are other things that we have had to work harder on, but the performance isn't one of them. All I can say is it is worth it. UK has got traditionally one of the worst working hour weeks of the whole of Europe, and I worry for industry that We're not going to have people that will be able to give people a nice working life because they've not got decent leaders. This, I am going to transform this person's working life. And it might be helping a line manager through a different difficult situation, helping organisations grow very quickly. It's life-changing. It's human beings.
Leanne ElliottI'm honestly getting a bit emotional, Jeanette. And it's, I'd love to go to a 4-day work week. I'm a bit fearful. What advice would you give them?
Jeanette RamsdenYou want them in the office for 5-day working week? Well, you know, good Good luck with that. You know, you're not going to attract the best talent. And even if you do, they're not going to stay with you very long, because there are other employers out there that are going to be able to offer this. And guess what? They will leave. By the way, let's not get me started on AI and recruitment. But anyway, be careful when you implement these things that you're then not then—
Leanne ElliottHello, and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioral science meets workplace culture. We are brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered occupational psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottToday, we're joined by someone who's actually gone and done what many companies only talk about, implemented a 4-day work week across their entire organisation.
Leanne ElliottKinda, as we'll learn, it's not quite a 4-day work week, but it certainly is reduced working hours. Jeanette Ramsden is CEO of The Curve Group, a company that is transforming HR and recruitment through a deeply human-centred approach. What is really cool about Jeanette's story is that she's not just experimenting with work hours, she's fundamentally rethinking what makes a productive, engaging workplace in 2025.
Al ElliottAnd let's just be honest for a second, when an HR and recruitment company like Curve makes this sort of bold move, It sends ripples through the entire industry. They're essentially walking the talk, practicing what they preach to their clients about creating cultures where people genuinely want to work.
Leanne ElliottExactly. And the research on reduced work hours is compelling. Studies repeatedly show it can increase productivity, improve wellbeing, and reduce burnout. But there's a massive gap between the theory and actual implementation. Jeanette has navigated those practical challenges that trip up so many organizations.
Al ElliottIf you haven't listened to Tuesday's episode, then go back and listen to that as well once you listen to this one, because we have the amazing Grace Tallon on there who's from the Work Time Reduction Centre, um, and she's got a really spicy hot take, but it talks all about that. If you're a business owner though, and you're wondering how a, how a reduced time work week could work in your company, or maybe you're just intrigued by the idea of working a bit differently, you are gonna love this. We're gonna get into the nitty-gritty of how Jeanette made it happen without sacrificing client service.
Leanne ElliottWe'll also explore Jeanette's perspective on leadership as a woman CEO in an environment where there's increasing talk about masculine energy in the workplace. You're going to really like her answer. After this short break, join us for a conversation that might just change how you think about the future of work.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems, and in our case, about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story, and when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Okay, let's go and meet the amazing Jeanette Ramsden.
Jeanette RamsdenJeanette Ramsden. I am the CEO of The Curve Group. The Curve Group is a professional services firm specializing in HR and recruitment, and we've been running for 20 years, providing services to our customers, and that can be in any format in the employee lifecycle. Our target customers are businesses that have anything from 100 to 3,000 employees, and we're literally here to help the HR community achieve their goals in business, quite frankly. What am I famous for? Being a bit naughty, actually, as a CEO, occasionally.
Leanne ElliottYou know, I have to ask, how are you naughty?
Jeanette RamsdenJust challenging traditional working techniques. I think getting a blend, you know, we're about to take the next generation of workforce in. That's going to be 6 generations working in the workplace, and they all need different things. And I think it's incredibly important to not forget sort of traditional and true work methodology, but actually bring a lot of fun and new thinking to the workplace. You know, I was one of the first to sort of adopt the I know the topic is 4-day working week, but actually we're 35-hour flexible working week, and that's taking the 4-day working week to the next level again. And there's some really good new reasons for that. So, you know.
Leanne ElliottI mean, it's, it's, it is exactly what we're talking about today, the 4-day work week, or I guess more accurately reduced working hours. So, can we start at the beginning? What led you to decide that you wanted to introduce a 35-hour work week? And would you mind just explaining how that's slightly different to what a lot of people would have heard of as the 4-day work week?
Jeanette RamsdenWhat happened is we were coming out of COVID and obviously, whilst I've always believed in actually hybrid working, we really had changed the way that we'd worked. We'd all been at home, we were all working remotely. And whilst I accept that there are businesses out there that can't move to this, clearly, The Curve Group, we'd been operating for a couple of years very successfully remotely. We needed to really analyse and look at the way that we were working and how could we actually get the best lessons from COVID but actually to sort of actually improve. And we really decided that actually by doing a 35-hour working week, and what that is, is people can choose their own flexible work pattern. Why that's better than the 4-day working week is it does allow parents, and let's face it, a lot of it is mums, so female employees, to actually choose their way of working. And that allows some people to do the school drop-off and pick-up, but work 5 days. Other people do choose to condense their days to 4 days and work longer hours. And it just really means that they can sort of choose, you know, people that are having parents to look after, you know, you can really sort of, depending on your own personal circumstances, get the best 35 hours that you can do, provided we can still provide a service to the clients. So, if you've got a client-facing role, obviously, we can't get you working from 12 midnight to 4 AM. But the 35-hour, it's really to sort of work out your own, your own working pattern.
Leanne ElliottAnd how does that work in terms of salary? Are people paid on kind of a pro rata for 35 hours, or how did you figure that out?
Jeanette RamsdenThey are paid for 35 hours. For part-time workers, it's, um, one of the things that people need to— employers need to consider when, when taking this on. What it actually meant is that some of my part-time, uh, workers actually got a pay increase, um, because it is on a pro rata basis. And so, uh, we, we talk about hours now. So holidays are not holidays, they're actually holiday hours, because depending on your work pattern and your flexibility, it's not just having a day off. Um, it's, it's about how many hours you are taking off depending on your working week. So that's a little bit of a complication, but one that's worth doing. Uh, but it's a little bit of a complication that you can get. And, um, when considering moving to a 35-hour working week, if somebody was working 30 hours instead of 40 hours, if you can think on a pro rata basis, they actually needed a pay rise because Yeah. Um, not for the part-time workers because they were, uh, you know, technically increasing their hours.
Leanne ElliottSo, how did you go about implementing this? Because it was then having to be a conversation with full-time employees and saying, look, we're gonna, we're gonna reduce your salary very slightly, but—
Jeanette RamsdenNo, no, no, we didn't, we didn't reduce anybody's salary. We just took, um, 5 hours, uh, we reduced the working week by 5 hours, and that's why we needed to increase part-timers' pay because it wouldn't have been fair and equal. The reality is we've seen no downturn in productivity, and therefore, actually, um, there wasn't— there was no hit, but people just, um, took, you know, a reduction in their hours. Um, and that's why the part-timers got an increase in their pay.
Leanne ElliottSo just so we're super clear, you went down to a reduced 35-hour working week, salaries remained the same for full-time employees, they were worked out then for people who are part-time, and because of the pro rata, some people actually got a pay rise. How does that work if people take a day off, or how does that all, all the technicalities of it work?
Jeanette RamsdenYeah, I mean, you really do need to plan for the change, um, and, uh, the client coverage was one that we really had to, uh, work out, um, and, you know, I, I know it's an overused word, but communication is absolutely key here, um, getting your manager's buy-in and your clients' buy-in into what you are doing. It took quite a bit of communication as to the reasons why we were doing it, them understanding that there was going to be no downturn in productivity, performance, service levels, etc., etc. And what's interesting is that our clients have been massively supportive, actually. Now, whether I'm just really lucky with that, I've got some absolutely superb customers, or whether we've just done a really good job— and then when I say we, It's the team, not me, have done a really good job. You know, that was a real key thing that we had to focus on. I think the other thing is the holiday calculation. So, we actually did this mid-year, and it was tremendously difficult to work out the— because of the hours of holiday, to try and work out how many people, what people had as a remaining holiday, and that whole calculation was really, really difficult. So, my advice to somebody, if they're thinking about about doing this is, uh, you know, do it at the end of the holiday year rather than mid-holiday. Um, obviously we had an additional cost that we had to, um, take on in terms of the part-time, uh, working hours. Um, and, um, just really ensuring that you've got your leadership support. Um, one of the things that we had to really work out was meetings Because meetings where you wanted teams to attend, of course, everybody's got different working hours now, and finding times when people can all come together that means that everybody's there just takes a little bit more working through. So those are some of the things that we sort of had to take on board. And, you know, one thing that's not terribly popular, but I am going to say it, is because of the sort of government wanting to bring this right to switch off.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jeanette RamsdenUm, one of the things that I have had to sort of, um, ask of my team is, um, flexibility in return, uh, because life happens. And if a customer has got, um, a need or a sort of a real problem, uh, we need to be able to sort of, uh, respond to that. And I'm very lucky with the team that I have in that, that they will respond when and if times are difficult with my clients and sort of need to provide a little bit of flexibility. And as you say, it's that, it's that mutual flexibility, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottAnd people will want to show up for their clients because they've, they've, they've got a, you know, an environment where that they want to perform because they're being treated well and being treated fairly, and they've got this amazing opportunity in terms of a reduced working week. I mean, you've mentioned a couple of times that there's been no impact to productivity and performance. Can we dig into that a bit? Because I think a lot of fear of business owners is going to be that dip. Um, in productivity, performance, quality of work. What was that shift like? What did you notice?
Jeanette RamsdenIt was a great leap of faith, of course it was. Um, and, you know, I did speak to a number of— um, I'm a great believer in asking for help and sort of before making a big decision, uh, asking people that quite frankly better than myself, uh, their advice, um, on And yeah, it was a great, you know, I really did have to take a big deep breath and, you know, before sort of moving to this. And interestingly, we talked about trialing it and we, and this is where the naughtiness comes in, is we decided that actually it's not very authentic. doing a trial because people don't really trust that it's going to last. And if you, if you want to move to this and you want to get your team behind you, actually trialing it is kind of the wrong message. It's like, we don't really trust you. You know, it's all of the things that sort of I don't believe in and is not necessarily very authentic leadership. I've always been this type of leader that is Theory Y rather than Theory X. I know this is quite an old theory, but, you know, it still is true that I absolutely measure.
Al ElliottYeah.
Jeanette RamsdenPerformance on outputs. I trust people to get a job done. And it's about treating people about how you'd like to be treated yourself, quite frankly. And don't get me wrong, it sounds like it's a really fluffy place to be. It really isn't. You know, at The Curve Group, we have services to deliver, we have KPIs to attend to, and make sure that we perform or else, you know, we'll be out of business. You know, let's be clear.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jeanette RamsdenBut, um, uh, if you're true to that, that means that your team are also true to that, and therefore the outputs, um, are the same. And we've seen no dip in performance, um, whatsoever. There are other things that we have had to work harder on, but the performance isn't one of them that we've, we've worried about.
Leanne ElliottHas there been any downsides then in terms of, of business outcomes?
Jeanette RamsdenNot, not in terms of business outcomes. The things that we've had to work a lot harder on. Is, um, so leadership style. So there's a new statistic out that 80% of employees don't feel engaged with their employer. What I don't want to do is attract people that want to work 35 hours because it's a nice place to be and actually don't demand very much. What I want is a 35-hour working week where everybody's absolutely committed to The Curve Group, to their— our aim and our purpose, and that's transforming working lives. And ensuring that you do that with people that are working on different shifts Making sure that you've got coverage of your team, making sure that people are held accountable for the job that they do, that we don't over-parent. You know, I think leadership and parenting is, you know, two different things. It's really ensuring that there is the flexibility and that engagement. And if you're not careful, people have a reticence to want to come into work.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jeanette RamsdenAnd you've got to make the workplace a really nice place so that people do still want to come in and not be just totally remote. Because I think there's an awful lot of learning and development that needs to take place and learning from each other and actually memories being created. One of my absolutely gorgeous finance managers that's just recently retired, took her out for her retirement dinner kind of thing. And all of the memories that she was recounting were around The Curve Group and when we were having things together. And I think there's a real importance of making the workplace a fun environment, that people are creating memories, that you have that— I talk quite often about The Curve family, and it's about creating that environment when you've got people working very, very flexibly and remotely at times.
Al ElliottAfter this very short break, we're going to learn more about what is working at Curve for Jeanette and some of the pitfalls you can avoid when you implement this in your own workplace.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Jeanette RamsdenSeamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
Jeanette RamsdenUh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Jeanette RamsdenI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
Jeanette RamsdenDefinitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Jeanette RamsdenKeep that in.
Al ElliottWelcome back. Let's rejoin Leanne and Jeanette.
Leanne ElliottHow have you found this shift has impacted things like your retention, the number of applications you get when you advertise a job in terms of talent? Has it, has it helped you retain and attract talent?
Jeanette RamsdenOh my God, yes. So, you know, I think anybody that thinks that, um, that pay is the only thing that motivates people, um, that is just, it's so archaic. And, um, I'm talking now just not just for The Curve Group, I'm talking for, because we do recruitment as part of, um, our service offering. Customers that can provide a fantastic employee value proposition, can pay a fair wage, but also provide flexibility, they're the ones that get the true talent without question. And at The Curve Group, being able to attract retention and retain our people, is so key to our growth plans. And if I tell you that my leadership team have got an average of over 8 years' service each, it kind of shows you that it does work. And that has so many rewards for your customers. It means that you can have true graduate programs where people can come up and through to meet your growth plans. But at the top end, the customers are getting the same interaction, Consistently with people that are truly dedicated to not only their employer, but our whole aim, really. And I do believe that that's down to, significantly down to the 35-hour working week. And people need to be listened to. They need to be able to balance their work and their life and being authentic around that. I know I keep using that word authentic, but I I want a work-life as well, and it's very, very traditional to think that, you know, and actually that's a piece of advice I would give to people. Be careful when you implement these things that you're then not then still doing the 60 hours a week, because actually it gives people an unconscious bias towards feeling that whilst I've got a 35-hour working week, actually the only way I'm going to get on is by doing 60 hours. So, you know, I've had to sort of be quite disciplined myself as well to make sure that I'm leading by example.
Leanne ElliottYou see, that role modelling is so important, isn't it, in leadership? I mean, how have you— have you seen any impacts on the individual employees in terms of their wellbeing, their work-life balance, how they're showing up to work? Is there anything you've noticed at an individual level that's happening after this shift?
Jeanette RamsdenAbsolutely. I mean, I'm sure those listeners who have children out there know just how expensive childcare is, and the ability to enable people to sort of look after their children without it costing them an arm and a leg and a torso, quite frankly, is one sort of just very sort of just one part of our workforce that has had a big, big difference. But, you know, for generations that are more mature, you know, the ability to be able to have on their— I'm just giving you some of the feedback, you know, be able to go and play golf on a Friday so that they're then spending time with their family on a Saturday and Sunday while still having their hobby. You know, that's worth a huge amount to people. We do employee opinion survey within The Curve Group, and whilst there's not been a drastic change in our overall EVP, we do a question that is, what would you stop, what would you start, and what would would you continue? And in the continue, the 35-hour working week flexibility always comes up as something that they want us to continue with.
Leanne ElliottWe're seeing a lot of the opposite. We're seeing, you know, Google saying we want a 60-hour work week, demanding people get back into the office. The Curve Group operates on a hybrid, you know, hybrid policy. So much coming out the complete opposite, and that's what's needed for performance, for productivity, collaboration, for innovation. Where do you stand on these arguments? How do you feel about these, these opinions coming out into the world?
Jeanette RamsdenThe listeners will not be surprised in the fact that I, um, don't condone it. I think it's exactly the opposite of what we want, and actually it's not what I'm seeing in my clients, actually. Um, whether it's just because we are UK-centric, I think there is a global, um, issue Here. Um, uh, but the reality is, is, um, with, you know, 5, soon to be 6 generations of workforce coming in and talent's becoming more and more difficult to attract and retain, any employer— my advice is any employer, um, that is, um, the media are calling this, this masculine energy. Yeah. Um, uh, you know, it, it's, it's— you're not going to attract the best talent and you're not going to retain them. And actually, um, we thought— talk about authentic leadership— people will nod at you and say yes, yes, yes, but actually underneath it all, they will become more and more, um, distant and not engaged with you. And that's exactly the opposite to what you really want. Um, and just on that sort of masculine energy piece, you know, anything that's sort alienates any part of your workforce is not good. What we want is high EQ from our leaders. And anything that's sort of condoning a 60-hour working week where people can't get a work-life balance, quite frankly, we get burnout, sickness as a result, et cetera, et cetera. The HR implications just go on and on and on, and I think it's forcing our government's hand to sort of bring in some rather difficult and things that I quite fear employment practices because we've got the shift to people going to the 60-hour working week, asking people to work more and more hours, etc., etc.
Leanne ElliottJeanette, what changes are the government bringing in and why are you afraid of them? Can you give us an example of maybe something that's coming in?
Jeanette RamsdenSo, they're bringing employment rights from day one, which means that, you know, People can't get rid of people. They used to think that you can get rid of people in the probationary period and in the first 2 years of service because they can't take them to tribunal. The Labour government are bringing in that they have rights, full employment rights from day one. They are bringing more stringent, yet again, more stringent policies around contract working. They are bringing in the right to switch off, which means that people have to, they only have to work when they're engaged to work and they don't have to work outside of that flexibility. So, those are just sort of 3, just right off the top of my head of things that they're bringing in. So, and I can see why they are doing that because UK has got traditionally one of the worst working hour weeks of the whole of Europe. So, I can see why they're sort of trying to bring it in, but it's not necessarily the best way of doing it.
Leanne ElliottAnd is that because you think it's going to take away from the ability of employers, business owners, to build in this flexibility? Or because kind of for, for people listening, they might be thinking, why is that bad? Because, because I should have my rights from day one and I should be able to, uh, you know, switch off after work. What is the downside of these types of policies coming in?
Jeanette RamsdenWhat we need is good employers that treat their employees well and do a fair working week and don't force people to work long You know, long and difficult hours. The employment rights from day one, what I'm super concerned about is people making recruitment decisions. It's a difficult decision because you sort of wanted to engage with somebody and the cost of hiring somebody is high anyway. I think it could have a very discriminatory effect on the workforce. People will hire in their own model, not actually taking a chance on bringing a different individual, perhaps somebody that has a disability. And it just does alienate certain parts of our workforce. And that I really worry about as a nation. I think there's a lot of untapped potential out there, but I can see that employers won't take a risk because if it goes wrong, they have no ability to be able to change I think that's a really interesting point of view because it's understandable, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottBusiness owners would be fearful of making those decisions for that potential consequence. I mean, everything you've said is, is it speaks so much to your values as a leader, the values of The Curve Group. Can you maybe just give us a bit of an insight into that in terms of this shift to a reduced working week, everything you said about authentic leadership and empowering people? What are the values of Curve Group and how is all, how does all this fit into it?
Jeanette RamsdenWe would love to be the go-to provider of HR and recruitment services to our chosen markets, which is sort of that 100 to 3,000 employees. And we love helping organizations, you know, and transforming working lives. You know, I always say to the team, you know, we're not doctors and nurses, we don't save lives, but actually, and the whole Maslow's hierarchy of needs, You know, what people do for a job, um, and they spend a lot of time at work. Let's face it, even at 35 hours, it's still a lot of, uh, time that you spend at work. And what you do within that, um, you know, can make a massive difference on how you live and feel about your life. And we're all different. And, you know, just, I have got so many examples of where, um, we've helped individuals, um, it saved their marriages because we've given them £3,000 or £4,000 more increase because we've recruited them to a new job and they've been able to take the family on holiday, or we've actually dealt with what has been a very difficult situation in terms of an employee and the employer not agreeing on things and sort of managing that scenario to a successful conclusion between the employer and employee. That's life-changing. That is really important. And as I say, I've met people that I've done a nice reference for in the past that has meant that they've gone on to have a full career and get out of quite an abusive relationship. I mean, and it goes on. What we do is so important. And anybody that— people always say to me, what makes— why do people not work out in The Curve Group? And it's where they don't take seriously this, I am going to transform this person's working life. And it might be helping a line manager through a difficult situation and helping organizations grow very quickly and effectively. Or it can be sort of dealing ethically with having to make redundancies and a big change, or if there's been a big acquisition that we've, you know, helped and ensure that that's gone effectively and really, really smoothly. It's life-changing. It's human beings. Every situation is different, and doing it in a really professional, uh, way that— where you actually care is kind of what we're about.
Leanne ElliottI'm honestly getting a bit emotional today, and it's, it's because there's, there's so much noise out there at the moment, so much nonsense, that we can't be commercially minded, we can't be entrepreneurial and treat people like human beings. You know, it's not about the decisions that are made in terms of layoffs, it's how that's done ethically. I mean, you mentioned the masculine energy, energy I mean, do you, do you think gender influences this approach, or is it really just a philosophy of the business? I mean, in terms of that leadership practice, particularly in the HR industry where we do typically see more women, is that a factor or is it, is it something else?
Jeanette RamsdenSo, there's 2 parts of the organisation. We've got HR and we've got recruitment. Now, a lot of people say that recruitment is HR, and I kind of get that, but it's very different skill sets. And traditionally, The recruitment industry is actually quite male-dominated, and you're absolutely right, the HR side is a lot more female-orientated. I don't think gender has anything to play for it, actually, at all. I've always been a bit rubbish about being a female leader, if I'm honest. It's very much about being who you are, forging your own path, having the courage to do so. I've been very, very lucky in having some good role models along the way. You know, for me, it's about examine who you are, examine what you're wanting to achieve and what is important. Get better people that are better at doing their job around you that could do the job and then really appreciate what they are doing and what they they're achieving, and I mean properly appreciate it. Learn together, ask lots of questions, get lots of regular feedback and properly listen to it, and just constantly recognize that it's not easy. It isn't easy. If it was easy, a lot more people would do it. We're seeing an increase in the next generations not wanting and wishing to become leaders. And whilst that's okay, and I have always appreciated that people, you know, there's absolute technical ability that Traditionally, people go into leadership roles so they can earn more money. I think there's a real problem with us not— I worry why people are not wanting to go into leadership roles, and actually, when it can be massively rewarding. I'm bound to say that after 20 years, right? But it can be massively rewarding, and I just really want our next generations to sort of see that. And I worry that it's not that we're not training them well enough, it's that we're not enough, um, that we're not being good enough role models. Um, and I worry for industry that we're not going to have people that will be able to give people a nice working life because they've not got decent leaders. And they say that's a sort of a general thing, but I don't think gender has anything to do with it, really.
Leanne ElliottSo, there's probably other leaders listening who are like, Jeanette, I'm with you. I'm this type of leader. I'm this type of entrepreneur and business owner. I'd love to go to a 4-day work week. I'm a bit, bit fearful. What advice would you give them?
Jeanette RamsdenHow are you going to get the very, um, best employee value proposition? What can you offer your very best talent? And, um, what does that look like? So it might be a 4-day working week, it might be flexible working, it might be some remote working, it might be coming into the office only 2 days a week. Find what's going to give you the edge in order to attract and retain the very best people, because that, that is, you know, that is something that we have absolutely benefited from, um, 100%. I think then, um, ask for help if you are going to move towards it, and from people that have done it before. And when we do have a sort of full program to sort of how to move, um, to the 4-day working week, um, that we, we— I'm not saying necessarily ask for from us, but, you know, we can help with that because you need to think through all of the implications, ensure that you've absolutely, absolutely thought through all of those implications, that you're meeting them head-on, you know, everything from your communication, the increase potentially of payroll costs, the calculation of holidays, through to ensuring that client coverage is not affected, productivity is in place. that you measure the performance, deal with meetings, deal with your employee engagement, is kind of top-level advice that I would give. But all I can say is it is worth it.
Leanne ElliottHave you seen any of your clients that you work with kind of going, oh, talk to us about this, Jeanette?
Jeanette RamsdenYeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we have helped some organizations move to it. Things that sort of we can get wrong are things Things like global time zones can be difficult where people have got teams that are working from east to west kind of thing and making sure that that's all covered. Where organizations don't get the true buy-in from their leaders and that they don't understand about the unconscious bias of working really, really hard and sort of giving paying lip service one, but actually than, you know, doing another thing in practice. Um, uh, you know, and I think there is something around still, uh, you— the whole programming of your HR system is something that people quite often forget because, you know, if you're not having day holidays, you know, you need to reprogram your HR system in order to make that sure that that goes and just make sure that the sort of communication is in place. If you're not going to be in the office as much because it's a 4-day working week, And the days don't cross with your leader. Sometimes we can get a bit of unconscious bias on promotions because it's easier to promote the people that you see and spend the most time with, whereas actually you've got a whole workforce that you need to consider and make sure that it's ethically done and that the best people are being attracted for the best jobs, not just the ones that are in your line of sight. So, that's another sort of thing that can happen if you're not careful and if you And what do you think are maybe some of the misconceptions that other business owners might have about the 4-day work week or a reduced working week? Yeah, I think, do you know, it's about the productivity, um, and, um, uh, it's the control, you know, um, I think, um, Let's face it, before COVID you know, we were talking about these things. We were talking about working more remotely, being able to give people a lot more of a much better work-life balance and things. What COVID did was actually dispel those myths because it happened. And you know what? We all survived, didn't we? We might have not thrived, but we certainly survived. And I think there is a real nervousness. What I see is with every generation, it dispelling a little bit more and sort of the knowledge that actually there are different ways that you can work and that work-life balance is important. And just the, you know, it's just, it's understanding that if somebody's happy in their workplace, because their life is in a place where they can cope a lot better. And let's face it, life is difficult, isn't it, in modern-day society? It really is. You're going to have a more productive and a much happier workforce. And therefore, everything that— every interaction and every intervention that they have is so much more productive. And I go to customers and And they're literally on their knees. And you just think, if any Curve representative was going into a customer looking like they're on their knees, that they are exhausted, that they're worn down by life and work, that is not— that's not leading by example. You know, put your money where your mouth is. We're an HR and recruitment provider.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Jeanette RamsdenWe've got to lead by example on that and stop worrying about people not delivering because you think that you're sort of leading by a stick rather than a carrot. I have been very lucky in that I've worked for some great bosses. I've also worked for some incredibly difficult bosses as well. And my— I would say to anybody that's sort of grown their career is take the best out of both, because you will learn as much from the bad ones as you will the good. And this is where I think I've been quite lucky, uh, as a female, is that I've never had a problem in asking for feedback and advice. Um, and if you truly listen to that, I think it enables you to learn, um, about yourself, but also the per— the leader that you want to be. Um, I've got to 55 now, and, um, it's almost taken me a long time to find my own voice. Um, but I'm now very strong and very confident about that. But it's because I've had great people around me all the way through. Um, but I've spent a lot of time analyzing that and not just going to work, working hard, and hoping that the outcome will be okay. You know, what you put in, you get out 100%, but it's how you do it, not what you do, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottAnd what do you want to be remembered for? What do you want The Curve Group to be remembered for?
Jeanette RamsdenTransforming working lives. We've really promoted within The Curve Group to sort of share feedback, because, and you know, we often boom out, like, things that have gone well within the organisation, and I personally thank people when we get these great testimonials in, you know, and it can be Just from a candidate saying, I've had a great experience. You've held my hand all the way through. And by the way, let's not get me started on AI and recruitment. But anyway, I can't see that anybody's going to join an organization that's not had contact with a human being. But anyway, there we go. That's another whole topic. Sort of giving a candidate a job is just one of the most wonderful things, uh, you can get. Helping an HR director, um, that has got so many, uh, difficult and complex tasks to do in every single day, um, helping them with, you know, their career, making them look good to their board when we're constantly being battered and we're just being asked to do more and more and more with less and less and fewer and fewer resources. Um, is, you know, is, is, it makes me feel good when we've really helped somebody, um, with that. And finally, helping organizations grow and realize their dreams. And, um, many of the organizations that we service, you know, can't do it without their employee population. And if we can enable them to do that really, really well, that's what I want to be.
Leanne ElliottWhat are we, what are you currently working on? Is there anything you're always, you kind of, you're on top of your list to improve, to innovate, to change?
Jeanette RamsdenIt's getting HR directors and CPOs to really understand that they can't be generalists, because the role of HR is so complex and so complicated. You know, in the past, you know, if you looked after your employees, You paid them, you did decent administration, did a bit of learning development, and you recruited people. That was sufficient. Now you have to be a data expert. You've got to be a systems and AI and technology expert. You've got to be organizational design. You've got to be employee relations expert. You've got to be a financial planner, mental health expert. And with that, Yeah. Very varied and complex services. You can't be a generalist and an expert in all. And work out— what I wish to do is get my CPO population to work out where their strengths are and then ask for help where they don't have it so that they can be truly representative in the boardroom. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd they should be in that boardroom.
Jeanette RamsdenAbsolutely, they really should. I heard a really disappointing stat the other day that, um, that more and more HR directors are now post-COVID— so during COVID they were all invited back into the boardroom, and now there's a move away from that. And that's really very disappointing because, um, and not one that I've seen a huge amount of evidence about, I must say, because The customers we work for do value HR, or else they won't be engaging with us, right? But it's, you know, as the world gets more complex, having a really good HR strategy that engages everybody is really, really valuable.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. It baffles me how that isn't just obvious that you'd need to have HR director, chief people officer at the right hand of a CEO, particularly as you say, the complexity of the working world that we're now in.
Jeanette RamsdenYeah, I think I'm speaking more generally and not about my customers. It's because HR people, because of— and I am talking quite UK-centric, so apologies for the global providers out there that are listening— is that with all the complexity that's coming in, HR directors are actually having to say, No. They're having to make the boardroom deal with a lot more governance and compliance, which is quite frankly not exciting. It's not the sexy stuff of business, and they're having to say no, and they don't like that. And so, if we can find ways so that the HR directors can really concentrate on business development, top talent engagement skills, forward forecasting so that you've got people in anticipation ahead of the needs of the organization and not getting dragged down into the weeds of administration, compliance, employee handbooks, policies and procedures that are up to date with the new legislation that's coming out. If we can help with that, that's where I think we can sort of really add value and get our HR directors back into the boardroom.
Leanne ElliottAnd in terms of the future of work, I have to bring it back to the core of our conversation, the 4-day work week, reduced working week. Is it the future? Is it a trend? What are your thoughts?
Jeanette RamsdenAbsolutely. I think any employers that are wanting to attract, you know, it's— I've heard some of our recruiters sort of really challenged when they're taking a brief on, So, you're wanting somebody in the office 5 days, 42-hour working week. You want them in the office for 5-day working week. Well, you know, good luck with that. You know, you're not going to attract the best talent. And even if you do, they're not going to stay with you very long because there are other employers out there that are going to be able to offer this. And guess what? They will leave.
Al ElliottYeah.
Jeanette RamsdenYou know, unless you can make it so compelling.
Leanne ElliottThat was a brilliant Jeanette Ramsden from The Curve Group. As you would have heard, I did get a bit emotional during that interview. Um, it's so wonderful to speak to such an authentic, inspiring leader who just gets it. And more than that, I've spoken to a number of, of Jeanette's team in setting up this interview, and everyone is, is amazing, hardworking, inspiring. Inspired, passionate, um, everything that you'd expect, um, from an organisation that is led by such an incredible CEO. If you are also inspired by what you've heard today, I would really encourage you to go and find and follow Jeanette on LinkedIn, where she regularly shares insights on modern workplace practices.
Al ElliottAnd if you're a business leader considering how a 4-day work week might function in your organisation, The Curve Group actually offer consultancy services to help other companies just like Curve Group also offers a variety of free webinars and insights packs.
Leanne ElliottI will leave the link to that in the show notes as well.
Al ElliottIf you have enjoyed this episode, then think about subscribing wherever you get your podcasts, or if you're on YouTube, click that subscribe button. And what do they always say? Ring the bell or something? I don't know.
Jeanette RamsdenDon't ring the bell. That's really cheesy.
Leanne ElliottJust subscribe.
Al ElliottThat's fine. But also think about just if what would really help us, if you shared it somewhere, either privately with someone who you who think might find it useful, or if you just you want to think share it with might benefit from it, or just put a post on LinkedIn, tag us in, and we'll share your post with our lovely listeners.
Leanne ElliottWe will, and we will see you on Tuesday for our regular episode, um, with our weekly news roundup, our spicy hot take, and our world-famous workplace surgery where Al puts your questions to me.
Al ElliottThat's all for now. Bye-bye.