Episode 231 · 11 September 2025 · 46:11
When HR goes rogue, with former Adidas VP of HR, Tony Cooke
Featuring Tony Cooke
When HR goes rogue, with former Adidas VP of HR, Tony Cooke
0:000:00
Tip: click any timestamp below to jump there and keep playing.
Enjoying the show? Subscribe for free
Chapters & timestamps
Click any timestamp to jump the player to that moment.
The James Bond movie that wasn't a movie
interview#hr#leadership#vision
Tony's story — 20-odd years in a huge sportswear company
interview#hr#career#sportswear
Why HR became the pantomime villain
interview#hr#stereotype#reputation
The 'Adi Oscars' — cost-neutral recognition that packed halls
interview#recognition#engagement#maverick
When HQ found out (and why Tony got carpeted)
interview#risk#permission#corporate
The secret ingredient for Workforce 2020
interview#workforce#strategy#innovation
Asking for forgiveness vs. permission — the fallout
interview#risk#permission#accountability
The art of building relationships with decision-makers
interview#relationships#influence#leadership
Tony's golden rule for HR leaders
interview#hr#leadership#collaboration
Top 3 takeaways
interview#takeaways#hr#success
Show notes
When HR Goes Rogue — with Tony Cooke, former VP of HR at Adidas
Guest: Tony Cooke — former VP of Human Resources at Adidas, 20-year HR veteran, author of Waggish: Chronicles of a Maverick in a Corporate World.
Imagine you're the head of an HR team, asked to present your vision for the future workforce of Europe's largest sportswear company. Instead of PowerPoint slides, you make a James Bond-style movie — with the MD kidnapped, tied up, stuffed in a chest, and doing multiple takes until he's bruised and battered.
That's exactly what happened at Adidas, where Tony Cooke was running HR. His "waggish" approach — using humor, personality, and genuine humanity — was so effective that HQ kept stealing his initiatives and rolling them out worldwide, earning his team the nickname "The North Mafia."
Tony joins Al and Leanne to explain why HR became the convenient pantomime villain, how to break out of the "back of house" trap, and why asking for forgiveness rather than permission might just be the secret to transforming workplace culture.
Top 3 Takeaways
Collaborate with senior stakeholders early. Tony's biggest learning was that even the best ideas need buy-in from decision-makers. Build those relationships before you need them, not after.
Learn the business inside and out. Don't just be an HR person — be a business partner who understands revenue, competitors, and strategic priorities. Tony challenged HR professionals to know their company's turnover.
Show your human side. Stop being the aloof rule-maker and let people see that you're human with frailties, bad days, and emotions. People warm to authenticity, not perfection.
The Results
Adidas became known as a talent factory with a conveyor belt of leaders going to senior roles across America, Amsterdam, Germany, and beyond. That's the business impact of making HR genuinely human at one of the world's most recognizable brands.
More From Tony Cooke
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/tony-cooke-9706341b
- Book, Waggish: Chronicles of a Maverick in a Corporate World on Amazon: amazon.co.uk
- Also available on Everand: everand.com
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottRight, imagine you're the head of an HR team and you get asked to present the team's vision for the future workforce of the largest sportswear company in Europe. But instead of sitting down and putting together the usual dull PowerPoint slide presentation, you instead decide to make a James Bond-style movie. You have the MD kidnapped, he's tied up, he's stuffed into a chest, and he does multiple takes until he's bruised and battered.
Leanne ElliottNo, that's not the plot of some kind of comedy drama film. That's what actually happened at the world's second biggest sportswear company, Adidas, where our guest Tony Cooke was running HR.
Tony CookeThe idea we had was that we'd make it into a movie in a James Bond sort of way, and we brought in our own people to be actors, whereby the MD was actually hijacked and kidnapped, and he played his part. Yeah, and he was a good sport. He was a great sport because it meant he had to be tied up and then Rumbled into an old, old chest somewhere, and we had to do about 4 or 5 different takes, and he was full of cuts and bruises at the end of it.
Al ElliottTony spent 20 years transforming HR from the inside out, creating everything from Adi Oscars to speed dating for talent. His approach was so successful that other markets started to copy his initiatives without asking permission. And he did all this without a huge budget. In fact, it often cost nothing.
Tony CookeAnd I have to tell you how cost-effective the HR team were when we done this video. Because when we brought the, a group in from our production team from outside, he felt that we would need 6 burly hard cases to hijack RMD at a rate of £350 a day, which I thought was outrageous. So I went and got my own friends that I go to the football with, and they did it for free.
Leanne ElliottBut here's the thing, Adidas HQ called Tony and his team the North Mafia because they consistently overperformed while doing things their own way. Usually without asking for permission. This is virtually unheard of in a £20 billion corporation.
Al ElliottSo today we're asking, what happens when HR goes rogue?
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne and I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottNow, our guest today is Tony Cooke. He's the author of Waggish: Chronicles of a Maverick in a Corporate World and a former VP of Human Resources at Adidas who spent decades proving that HR doesn't have to be the department that everyone dreads. His approach was to make HR more human by appealing to people's sense of humor and showing genuine personality.
Leanne ElliottWhat makes Tony's story really interesting is that his waggish approach didn't just improve employee engagement, it created a talent factory that is still producing leaders across the globe today. His initiatives were so effective that HQ kept stealing them and rolling them out worldwide.
Al ElliottAfter this very quick break, we're going to join Leanne as she interviews Tony. We'll discover why HR has become the villain of the workplace and what happens when you decide to change that reputation from the inside out. See you in a second. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Tony CookeMy name is Tony Cooke. Uh, the 20-odd years in a huge sportswear company, so the role was HR. Uh, and interesting enough, the, the, the brand, uh, is a household name. But the interesting thing was that whilst the brand and the product was leading edge, uh, the— it was then— the personnel function wasn't.
Leanne ElliottAnd you're also now an author.
Tony CookeUh, yes, that much is true. Uh, this is the result of maybe 4, 5, 6, maybe 6 years' worth of work. And it came about because the, the The VP in global had challenged me to do it, uh, and she suggested that because I was a good storyteller, uh, I'd write a good book. And what I've tried to do in the book is 2 things really. It's half memoir, so it's my story since I joined the organization, but also it's, I hope it's going to be a handy resource book for people as well that they can click into various chapters. If they were either about to do something similar or they didn't know how to do it, or they wanted to learn. And I'll be very honest about it, we've made big mistakes. And to use a footballing terminology, I say we've made some own goals. Uh, so one of, one of the chapters is called, uh, Own Goals and Other Calamities. So stuff that we had a go at and we didn't work quite well, stuff that we've done and made mistakes along the way. People can learn from that. If they've got HR functions that are much, much smaller than ours and they're trying to do things, then themselves. So it's hit the streets. Uh, it's on Amazon. It's also in Waterstones. Uh, so it's for HR people. It's for people managers. It's for leaders. Uh, and it's written, Leanne, purely with a smile on people's faces. It's nothing heavy.
Leanne ElliottI want to carry on with what you were saying there in terms of this stereotype we have around HR people being quite rigid, bureaucratic, probably a little bit uninspiring at times. Where does that come from?
Tony CookeI personally, I think it, there's still some remnants of personnel in people's veins. Uh, I think it's a, it's a convenient positioning for businesses. I, I often think of, of HR as a, you know what, at Christmases you have the pantomimes and there's always a pantomime villain. And I think sometimes it's convenient in any organization for, for someone to be the one who gets the blame.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeFor someone who's the baddie of, of the pantomime. And I think sometimes HR allows itself to be that way, uh, where they're, we're the ones who's beat, being beaten over the heads. But it's convenient for HR as well, because if they want to be the, the lawmakers, uh, and they want to be the ones who put the rules in place, fine. But be careful because you, you're making a position for yourselves that, that does lend itself to being humorless and does lend itself to not being flexible or Or creative. I watched a movie last night called The Assassins, and even in that now, um, there's a, there's a part in it where they say it's a good job we haven't got an HR function. So even on, on, you know, TV movies, they're positioning HR as the baddies and the pantomime villains. If you're naughty, you'll go into HR. If, if you are, are doing not the right thing or you're not being woke enough will send you into, into HR. And I think that's our fault. So what I'm trying, trying to get people to have a think about is, look, you can be human the same as everybody else. If you want to go and stand up and belt out Oasis at a karaoke and make a complete show of yourself, why not? Because you're human the same as everybody else. And I think sometimes people forget HR people are human. And they have frailties, but they should have color about them. They should have personality about them. But I'm worried that we are all saying, well, HR are the lawmakers and HR, if you're naughty, you go into there. Let's show a bit of personality as well. And let's partner with the business and champion people. We could do 2 things. We could champion people and partner with the business at the same time to get a win-win. I think, I think there's a lot of perception of HR. that we are for the business and not for the people. So if people say, well, you know, I was thinking about putting a grievance in about something that isn't right in the business, but I won't because HR is on the business's side, that's our fault because that's the positioning and the brand that we are creating for ourselves. So I'm big on brand within HR. I don't think we spend enough time thinking about the way we brand ourselves and what our brand values are because we think our branding must be for marketing, and it's not marketing. We want to be able to go out to our internal people. I like to call them customers, not, not staff. I hate that word staff, uh, but they're internal customers because if, if, if we never had them, we wouldn't be here. There'd be no, no need for us to be here. So I want us to go out and ask them what they think of us. How brave would that be if we go to the punters and say, what do you think of us? What should we keep doing that you like? What should we stop doing that you don't like? And what should we start doing? All of this notion of actually being brave enough to go to people, Leanne, and say, we want to partner with you. We, we are human beings the same as you. How can we work together? Tell us what you think of us and we'll create a brand that's in line with our corporate values, but also what, what our internal customers are wanting us to be, because ultimately we're a support function.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeWe're back of house, we're not front.
Leanne ElliottI want to ask you, why is it, why is it important that we make this shift? Why is it, what does it mean to the, to the business commercially and the people in it if HR becomes a partner rather than, as you say, the villain?
Tony CookeThe pantomime villain, yeah. So when they say, uh, yes, our engagement levels are through the roof and everybody loves working here, and you say to them, says who? And they've got no evidence to show you. The only people who can tell you that Are the employees. And you'd be surprised that I think sometimes it's convenient to say from a people point of view, we're in great shape. Yeah, but it says who? And then you go and ask the employees and the employees say, that's not the case. So it's a very, very dangerous assumption that companies make. Yeah, everyone's fine. Well, how can you tell us that? Well, nobody leaves. And I think the fact that people don't leave, it might just be just treading water and just staying in the same job, picking the pay up.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeSo don't tell me that because nobody leaves, that engagement's through the roof. If we, if we had better profile in an organization and a more front-facing profile, I think it helps from the minute that we bring new people in because invariably when we recruit, HR will be there at some point when an individual starts in our organization. So HR have got an opportunity to be a brand ambassador.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeYou know, so if we bring somebody and they start on Monday morning, probably the first person they're going to see at some point is HR. And the impression they will gain of that organization is through us. And that's where we get the chance to be front-facing rather than back office. So if you ever have a look at a welcome aboard session that they do, an onboarding session, you'll have a look and you'll see, is it overly administrative? And, and box ticking, or is it more hearts and minds where people learn about the business and what the business is trying to do, spending time talking about the mission, the vision, uh, the values of the organization? Because I, I look sometimes at the values of organizations and, and people pay lip service to it.
Al ElliottAnd I—
Tony CookeYou get— you see them stuck on a wall or the, the, the, you see the, the pieces of paper curled up at the end. where people have probably put on the wall for years and years. And I look at some of them, Leanne, and they could be at home in any organization, be it a Ford Motor Company, Boots the Chemist. They could belong to Greggs the Bakers because they're all the same. But HR's job, in my opinion, is to help individuals understand how they can help bring these values to life. So I think, I think HR should wear several hats. Some of them, they don't like wearing hats, but apart from being The lawmakers, they, they should be brand ambassadors as well. They should be salespeople also for the organization. And then I'm thinking also from a recruitment point of view, you know, we need to make, make people want to be HR people and not, not just— at the moment in time, people, I think they love being working in sales or they love working in merchandising. There's not many people who are desperate, desperate, desperate to be HR, and when they do become HR in an organization, why can't we develop them to be more commercial so they could go into commercial roles? Because they just stay in that role and that's it. So from a developmental point of view, they become specialists and not generalists. But it would be brilliant if we had people within HR who bothered their asses more to learn about the business and to be more commercial, and then to have an appetite to go and take bigger roles. In, in the business. I think that would be brilliant, that if people call themselves HR business partners and you sat them down and said, well, tell me about the business, um, what your, your key strategic priorities are. I did a talk for the CIPD not so long ago, and for fun, it was only for fun, uh, I asked them, could they tell me what the turnover of the business was? Simple question. In other words, how much revenue do you generate? You'd be surprised the number of people who didn't know what the turnover was of their own business. So I think there's a lot of work to do that if you want to be an HR business partner, learn about the business. Stop just thinking that you are HR and you're a rule maker. Go in there and try and understand what the— who's the business's competitors? Uh, what obstacles are put on the business in terms of the way of driving new numbers through? Uh, winning new accounts. I think that would be exciting for HR rather than just allow themselves to be categorized and pigeonholed as, oh, they're HR. We go in there if we're in trouble or if we have a query on our pension.
Al ElliottSo Tony's just explained why HR has become the convenient scapegoat in organizations, the pantomime villain that everyone blames when things go wrong. But here's where his story gets really interesting.
Leanne ElliottTony didn't just complain about HR's reputation. He decided to completely reinvent what it means to be waggish, and that led to some pretty unconventional initiatives that drove engagement through the roof.
Al ElliottIncluding something called Dive In that had HQ thinking Tony had finally lost his mind and built a swimming pool. So let's just start off with what waggish actually means.
Leanne ElliottCan I ask you, I've heard you described, um, HR as waggish. What does that mean?
Tony CookeThe, the, the waggish piece is is, is in a fun sort of way, getting the best out of people by appealing to people's senses of humor. So there's been a lot of times, occasions where I've seen lots of confrontational situations where you can take the sting out of them by being human and being lighthearted about, about stuff. So waggish for me means taking formality out of things. Clearly, there'll always be times when you have to be official and formal and straight-faced, but I've found that you can, you can do an awful lot more. You win an awful lot more hearts and minds by showing that you're, you're human. And that's why I come up with the word WAGGISH. Uh, it, in other words, it's an informal way. And, and Chronicle also in the title, WAGGISH Chronicle, is, is informal ways of telling stories and telling the news.
Leanne ElliottWhat's your advice to HR leaders today, how do they prepare for the workforce of 2030?
Tony CookeYeah, well, for 2030, embrace technologies by all means. But no matter what organization you're in, there's one common denominator, private sector, public sector. And it's about the frailties and fragilities of people. And wherever there is people, there is politics. So there's always a place for HR. I think my view for 2030, yeah, embrace all that's good. Embrace working from home, embrace flexible working and everything else, but start working hard now to create a brand within your organization in HR where people can readily see what you're about, that you mean business, that you are a genuine business partner. You know the business inside out, back to front, upside down, and your best mates with sales, with marketing. You don't have any foes. And you've got— and this is another big one— go out of your way to establish relationships where you're being proactive rather than wait and sit in an ivory tower till people knock on your door. What's our policy on handling grievances? That time's gone, gone now. We need to start being far more proactive and making— Another thing you should do, by the way, is set fire to the word HR. And come up with a new title for 2030. We have personnel, we got battered over the heads with that. We've now got HR. People are toying with the idea of— I don't know if you've seen it, Leanne— people and culture is the sexiest one at the moment that I've stumbled upon. Culture's always on everybody's lips now. And the one I'm noticing more and more now is managing performance and getting good tunes out of people to drive the business forward. Well, You shouldn't be in charge of culture. Don't put yourself on as being in charge of culture because there are people within the business who quite willingly will say, well, it says that in your title, so therefore you're in charge of culture. It's nothing to do with me, and they wash their hands of it. Put templates in place by all means, but you're not in charge of culture, HR. I'm awful sorry. It's the whole business that's supposed to be in charge of culture.
Al ElliottThose stories about the Adioskas and speed dating show exactly what Tony means by being waggish, using humor and creativity to solve real business problems. But here's the crucial question: how do you balance innovation with getting permission from HQ?
Leanne ElliottBecause Tony learned the lesson the hard way. When his initiatives became so popular that other markets started copying them, suddenly HQ wanted to know why they weren't consulted first.
Al ElliottSo when Tony was finally given permission to be creative, to make that James Bond movie about Workforce 2020, the results were spectacular. But it taught him something important about the difference between asking for forgiveness and asking for permission. We're gonna hear that story after this very short break.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Tony CookeSeamless, seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Tony CookeI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Tony CookeSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottTony, in terms of this way of working, you call yourself a maverick. And that you tested the patience of the senior leaders that, that you worked with. What was it that you were actually doing differently?
Tony CookeWe felt that we weren't doing enough from a reward and recognition point of view, Leanne. And we felt that we were taking people for granted when they were doing early birds and late shows almost every day to be able to drive a number. And I didn't want the people thinking we were taking them for granted. So we created something called the Adi Oscars. And the Adi Oscars was essentially at the end of every year, we'd pick up the values within the organization and we'd make a fuss of the people who had demonstrated these values the most.
Al ElliottThat's all.
Tony CookeAnd we didn't put any money involved. Or we didn't send them to Honolulu for a fortnight or anything at all. It was just the thought of them being made a fuss of and recognized in front of their peers, which is probably the best way to recognize anyone ever. Uh, and it gathered pace and people looked forward to it every December. And the, the hall where we did it would be packed to the rafters and people were desperate to see if they'd get a mention or if they'd actually win something because it would be the the employees themselves who would nominate, uh, a Leanne Elliott. So with nothing to do with Leanne Elliott, it would be the people who you work around who would say, she's a brilliant collaborator. She's got so much respect. She's always willing to muck in with other people. She always has bags of ideas. Let's put her in for collaboration. So like on, on the Oscars, uh, we would talk to the people who nominated Leanne Elliott, and we put it on a big screen and we'd say, and the shortlist, the nominations for collaboration are, uh, first one, Leanne Elliott. And it might be me or it might be Al who nominates you. And we wax lyrical about the great things from a collaborative point of view Leanne has done. Yeah. And it was brilliant and people loved it and we put it on our internal comms. But it's something that we did. Uh, in North Europe, or another one we did was speed dating. We put speed dating in place and the idea was we, we'd ask other markets if they needed any talent that we might have. And we'd say, we're looking for these talents in merchandising or sales, and they might have talents that we could bring on board. Brilliant idea, cost effective. Again, all it costs is the flight to get in. Feed them, put them in a hotel, and they go home. So no big investments. But again, because it was an initiative that we put in place, I think people were copying it and people wanted to take it on board. But the mistake we made, and it is a mistake, is that we never went and got holy water first and said, we're going to do this, if you don't mind, let me sell it to you. Let me make sure you think it would work in other markets. We didn't. We just got on with it and done it.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeBut not because we were baddies or because we were mischievous. We just thought it was the right thing to do in, in our, in our minds. So our area of responsibility, but we didn't get permission for it and we didn't ask anybody, was it okay to do it? Uh, don't forget, we're not paying any money out. I think the only money we paid out was to give people a cappuccino and a lemon drizzle muffin at the end, but there was no one got any, any awards. So it was cost neutral.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeUh, anyway, the guys in group found out about it and I was carpeted because we didn't ask for permission to do a rewards and recognition type initiative. I think what, what, if I may say this, can I say pissed off?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeFrustrated.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeWhat pissed group off, I think, most was I never went and asked for permission to do it because I just thought it was the right thing to do. Our guys loved it. But I think the straw that broke the camel's back was other markets, Leanne, started asking about it and how we did it. So they copied it. So half of Europe had Adioskas and the group didn't know anything about it. So I had to tell them what it was and then they pinched it off me, uh, and they changed it from Adioskas to Superstar. Uh, and then it become then a, a global HQ. initiative. Uh, but the, that's an example of something that we, we did. Uh, another one we did was the numbers weren't quite good, weren't quite good enough. So myself and the MD at the time came up with an idea called Target Busters. So we said, if we can quickly get a little bit more sales in, uh, we'll reach budget, we'll reach our target, uh, and it'll put us back in good shape for the rest of the year. Uh, A short initiative that paid for itself, uh, but it meant it was an initiative we'd put in place and we didn't get blessing. And, and my learning is, and I put it in the book, if you're going to do new initiatives as a market while you're working for the HQ, you're gonna have to play the game and give the impression that you want holy water over these initiatives rather than do it yourself. And we're not doing it ourselves because we're gangsters. We're doing it ourselves Because we just thought it was the right thing to do. One of the values was creativity. So we thought, well, let's be creative. We never ever went crazy with cash. And the things were always novel ways of doing things that meant that employee engagement went through the ceiling in terms of numbers. But the guys at group would much prefer us to do more staid, more—
Leanne ElliottTraditional.
Tony CookeUh, streamline ways of doing things that the guys in, in HQ liked. The funniest one was when we created a thing called Diving. Now, Diving was because I felt that we weren't embracing diversity and inclusion enough, uh, and I wanted to make sure that the people we had in the business were reflective of the consumers. So it meant that the people, all of our employees, I didn't want them to be stereotypical white males. I wanted them to be a complete mix right across the patch of all of our consumers. So I asked people to join me and created a team called Dive In. Now you probably worked it out. I pinched dive from diversity and I pinched in from inclusion. And the idea of Dive In was you immerse yourself, you take chances, you throw yourself in. And we launched that. And it was a— the good thing was it was a coming together of people from every background you could think of, every single background. And we, we brought them in and we said, right, how are we going to fix things here? How can we make ourselves more, more diverse and inclusive? So we had a first meeting, we brought the, the board of directors in, they loved it, great idea. Uh, and everybody bought into this notion of diving. And it was our initiative, but the people loved it. And everybody has a voice. All it was was a movement. To bring in a fun, fun, lighthearted way that sometimes very difficult notion of diversity inclusion to life through the people and everything we always did. It was the people, not the management team who brought the stuff to life. So if it was, if it was no good and it fell on its ass, it was because of us. If it was a great success, it was because of the people who brought it to life. Some didn't work, but I wanted to share them with people. Just to try and change this, this perception of HR as being very staid and very formal and humorless. Uh, so be assured there are HR people out there who've got a sense of humor. Uh, so I can remember a case when, when we were brought in as a, as all HRs into Germany, and the, the challenge was paint a picture of what workforce 2020 will look like. So this might have been 2018, we were given the task, you know, what, what will it look like in 2020? What will HR look like? Uh, and the challenge was given to us by the, the head of HR Europe at the time, lady. Uh, and rather than do slides and paint pictures, the idea we had was that we'd make it into a movie, uh, in a James Bond sort of way. Uh, And we, we brought in our own people to be actors, uh, whereby the MD, uh, was at— was at— was actually hijacked and kidnapped, uh, and he played his part. And again, same, same story. And he was a good sport. He was a great sport because it meant he had to be tied up and rumbled into an old, old chest somewhere. And we had to do about 4 or 5 different takes, uh, and he was full of cuts and bruises at the end of it, but it was a, it was a good sport. Now she gave us permission to do that, that time. Whereas previously we didn't. Now because it was done with their blessing, it then became a group initiative. So we used that video that we made about a secret ingredient for what Workforce 2020 would look like and gave it a James Bond feel and spies. And we brought people in from Holland and somebody came, somebody else came in from Prague to star it. And because she'd give us permission, she, I think she found some money for me, you know, to get it edited and directed and stuff like that.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeUh, that seemed to be a bestseller, but the, the learning for me was she told me to do it rather than me go and do it without getting permission first.
Leanne ElliottI have to ask you, what was the secret ingredient for Workforce 2020?
Tony CookeWell, the idea was that, that there was a, a nefarious gangster who'd heard about it, uh, this secret ingredient, uh, and he wanted to pinch it. Uh, and to pinch it, uh, he went away and hijacked RMD. And unless we gave him the secret ingredients, he was going to kill the MD. And it was well received by everyone, to tell you the truth. But the ingredient was about developing people. The ingredient was about succession plan, about engagement, about people becoming generalists and not specialists. The ingredient was about not keeping people in the same role maybe for more than 4 or 5 years. The ingredient was about zigzagging people. Develop mentally. So rather than just develop vertically, they develop horizontally and in a zigzag sort of way, because it would be quicker to get them developed rather than just sit, wait in the same department and just wait for opportunities to grow. We'd say, no, we're going to intervene and we're going to zigzag you across all of the business. So that was the ingredients. And this nefarious gangster was desperate to get hold of it. So we could take it and he could go out and recruit the best people and have the best company and have the best numbers. Ultimately, we feel as though we have an obligation from an EVP point of view. So our employer value proposition, I wanted it to be leading edge. So anyone who went on to our EVP, I wanted them to see this video to see, Christ, these people mean business here. They are good business people. They're embracing and bringing to life all the great things about people development. And you can see it with your very eyes. But rather than have 349 slides about what we do, we thought it'd be a good idea to, to bring it to life. And I have to tell you, by the way, Leanne Elliott, how cost-effective the HR team were when we'd done this video. Because when we brought the group in from our production team from outside, uh, to be able to get the MD hijacked, he felt that we would need 6.
Al ElliottWow.
Tony CookeBurly hard cases to hijack our MD at a rate of £350 a day. 6 at £350 a day, which I thought was outrageous. So I went and got my own friends that I go to the football with and they did it for free. So we were all the time, we were all the time trying to be cost effective at everything that, that, that we did. And I mentioned to you earlier that the MD, because he was that proud and excited of some of the stuff we were doing, He, he would naturally tell his colleagues and his counterparts when he was in MD meetings, oh, by the way, we're doing this, by the way, we're doing that. And the MDs clearly went back to their HRDs and said, there's a great idea there. You might wanna go and see how it works or reach out and, and, and ask for some advice or some tips, which they did, but they probably would remold it. So when we done the Adioskas, I'm sure they put their own little spin on it. And then before it was taken off us, uh, Don't Forget Group called it Superstar. So I think it's, it's a model that we would create and we'd say, well, it's here if you, if you want to use it, by all means use it. But we never had ownership of it or anything. These are ideas that we were just taking off the conveyor belt, uh, and then the guys would, would get them and mold them, look at them, learn from them, or do something themselves in a similar manner.
Leanne ElliottYou're clearly the type of of guy, uh, Tony, that, that asks for forgiveness rather than permission. So if you don't mind me asking, how did you manage to balance this innovation and actually keep your job? Was there any points where you're like, might have took that to the wire a little bit?
Tony CookeYeah, there's been fallout. There's, there's no issues with that. And I, I think it was more frustration because in, in the cold light of day, they would probably say when I was, when I was thrown back on the aeroplane to go home from, from Germany, It's a good idea. It really works well. It's cost effective. It does engage with the world of goods. It aligns people with our commercial objectives. The difficulty I had was I had a real stone in my shoe that we weren't encouraging people to be innovative and creative. So why have a value of creativity if you don't work hard to bring it to life or you give people license to bring it to life? So when I was carpeted by people over in Germany, it was, I think the message tended to be, look, for Jesus' sake, will you just tell us first? Or will you get blessing first? We love the ideas. And I think the other difficulty was when other markets heard about it. So for example, the MD, when he went to MD meetings, would quite proudly say, oh, we put this in place.
Leanne ElliottWhere's the balance between kind of, yes, asking for permission or just doing it anyway?
Tony CookeI think you learn that, you find it. The art, I think, is to develop good relationships with the people who are in group. I think that's key. So for example, with me, we had somebody in the group in Germany, HR, who did embrace creativity, but she She's allowed people to go away and be creative. So this time you're actually being afforded the opportunity to be creative.
Al ElliottSo Tony is waggish. He's a bit of a maverick. He often just does things without asking permission first. But the key question that you are asking, I'm sure, and we were asking is, did this work? Did his efforts pay off? Spoiler alert, yeah, they did.
Leanne ElliottAnd as an organization, the reputation it has now in terms of talent and people development is phenomenal, isn't it? The track record in terms of leadership. development.
Tony CookeWe are on LinkedIn. I still follow the, the people, you know, the employees who are still, still in the organization. And, and you're right. And I do regard it, and I say it on LinkedIn, it's, it's a conveyor belt of, of people. That's another interesting thing that I think we were seen as a talent factory. And, and the, the greatest kick I get, Leanne, is when you hear stories of people who've been on our conveyor belt, who've gone into America, into senior roles. Uh, Amsterdam, senior roles. Uh, lots and lots of them have gone to Germany into the HQ in senior roles. I heard a story the other week, someone's gone to South Africa now to take a senior role as well. And it's great news because we, we felt, and I still feel, that, that learning and development and, and developing people, it— I think that's, that's an expectation now with new recruits. I don't think it's a nice to have. I think when you come to an organization as big as that one, And the good talents. It's a hygiene factor. Now, that's all taken as a motivator. I think when you start in a new role, a business that size, you should have a real movie star approach to developing people. The only proviso is if someone says, yeah, meet me, I want to be developed, it means that you might be brought from one place to another. So the rule we had in place, meet me, I'm a talent, I want to be developed, I'm very, very mobile.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeAnd we come up with a role and we say, there's a role for you. Uh, yeah, but I didn't want that. That's Moscow. I didn't want Moscow. I wanted Amsterdam. Well, you can't pick and choose where you go. We're a business. We're trying to drive a number here. Uh, but yet if we were developing people for bigger roles, the deal was, if you come on board, we may need you to go to any part of the world. Uh, and that's why I'm so proud that you see lots and lots of people come off the conveyor belt. Yeah. The biggest kick I get is to watch people go into rapturous applause when they see their colleagues in the business being recognized and rewarded for doing something great, uh, for being really pleased when I could stop a cleaner in the corridor and ask them what their sense of purpose is, and they will tell you, uh, they want to be the best in the particular industry, uh, and essentially, Leanne, in all honesty, To remember that we're only here once. So let's live every day as though it's our last and get a kick out of it and bring joy and watch Liverpool win the Champions League. Uh, there were loads of leadership programs that we had that we named after products, which was always well received. But we got to, we got to the training and development party late on. We didn't start, we weren't serious about training and development for a long while. And then I think people seeing the value of it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeAgain, same story. Some of the training and development programs we started, like we call one Tomorrow's People, uh, in essence it means getting people ready for leadership in the fullness of time, uh, and that was well subscribed to. Same idea. We did it. We thought it was the right thing to do. The group heard about it and then group sent for the people. I think, I think we partnered. You remember Dale Carnegie?
Al ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeSo I think we did stuff with Dale Carnegie, so we didn't do it all ourselves. Dale Carnegie came in, uh, and we put a program together called Tomorrow's People, uh, which, which now the seniors, I mean, real seniors whose first taste of training and development was Tomorrow's People, which is great news, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt's such a story of transformation, Tony, from the inside out. If there's somebody listening who is an HR leader who is maybe in the opportunity that you were in to try and drive this type of change, is there anything that you'd say Start here, or this works, or this is kind of the golden rule?
Tony CookeWell, the golden rule, as, as will always be, collaborate with the HQ or collaborate with seniors or collaborate with the decision makers. Uh, even if I say it to you again, you think you're doing things for the right reasons, play the game and play fair. So find good partners in senior roles at an early stage would be one tip. Second tip is Stop just thinking that you're HR and remember that there's a big bad world out there in terms of your organization. And you'd be so respected if you asked questions that were nothing to do with HR. So if you would, if you were to go and ask the salesperson, um, which markets are we trying to penetrate? Or you were going to ask product, what's our latest product coming out? You'll be remembered for being curious. And people will respect you for being intrigued by what's going on in the business. And that you then, from an HR point of view, might be able to be thinking about solutions for problems that are coming around the corner would be another tip. And the last one I think that has helped me enormously is let people see that you're human. So, if you're a business partner, create partnerships with your business partners But let them see that you are human the same as them. You don't have to think that you're a machine all the time, or that you haven't got bad days and good days, or that you haven't lost your temper with someone, or you didn't cry your eyes out at a movie that you were watching. Everyone is human. So, news just in, are HR people. So, so remember that rather than think that you've got to have this aloof, I never make mistakes impression or personality. You do. And people will warm to you more if they, if they know how genuine and sincere you are as a person, as well as a professional HR.
Leanne ElliottWhat's the mafia story? Were you genuinely accused of being in the mafia?
Tony CookeWe had a management team, uh, the management team, uh, essentially the, the 3 most senior was myself, the FD, and the MD. Uh, and every year when we did, we did our numbers and we did our performance. We would overperform. We'd always overperform. Uh, and we always used to have, uh, a little stash, uh, from our overperformance, uh, that we'd use for other things. And the group always asked us, uh, have you got any money to contribute to any other parts of the organization who maybe hadn't had such a good year as, as ours? Uh, and we'd say, No more for Surrey. We haven't. We've spent it all. It's all gone. But we've made our contribution to you, so play fair with them. And they'd say, well, what have you got in that pocket? And we'd say, nothing, it's empty. And they'd say, well, empty your other pocket out. And we said, oh, that's empty as well. We've given it all that we've got. Uh, and then, uh, they, they couldn't understand how we were able to do so, so many fantastic numbers from a performance point of view. And so we were the The second biggest market. But invariably, Leanne, our numbers were always brilliant, and it was because we had brilliant people. We had hearts and minds. They were all driven. They all had a fantastic sense of purpose. And that was the reason. That was only the reason. But we had a lady who came on board in charge of reward, and she had a call. It was one of, you know, the way it's managed in a matrix.
Al ElliottYeah.
Tony CookeThe, the head of the function is in the HQ, but the people live with us. So the reward person phoned our reward person, uh, and said, right, uh, I want you to, uh, report into me anytime, uh, these 3 people— so it was me, the FD, and the MD— uh, I want to know what they're doing. I want to know how they get the numbers. I want to know what they do over salary review. Uh, I want to know what happens when it comes to bonuses and Every single thing we'd done was whiter than white. Uh, everything was always above board, but they just couldn't understand how we had such an amazing organization. Uh, and we, and we did, and it's no secret, do stuff sometimes our own way, but all above board. I've told you speed dating, I told you Adioskas, all the stuff that we'd done, uh, we'd done for the right reasons. And it turns out that there was a perception that we were called the North Mafia, uh, North being North Europe, uh, and us 3 were the heads of the families in, in the, uh, mafia because we did our own thing. Uh, we never told anybody. It was like a family. It was all close-knit. No one could get in. No one could get out. Uh, but we didn't know until this woman told us that that was the title they had for us, that we were the North, the North Mafia. So there's a, there's a, there's another film and there's another book maybe.
Leanne ElliottTony, I know our listeners will wanna learn more about you, your work, get your book. Where's the best place for them to do that?
Tony CookeThe book is on Amazon, Leanne. The book is in Waterstones. Uh, I think on my LinkedIn there's a, there's a link that sends you straight to Amazon. Uh, it's in paperback, it's in hardback. I'm on LinkedIn, uh, and I'm more than happy to help anyone with any questions that come through yours or through this conversation. Or they can ask me, more than happy to assist.
Al ElliottThat was Tony Cooke. And honestly, if every HR department was half as creative and results-focused as his team was, workplaces would be completely transformed, in my opinion.
Leanne ElliottLet's wrap up with our top 3 takeaways for leaders who want to create genuine change from within their organisations. And I must say, anyone who is familiar with HR 2.0, this aligns very nicely and really does show what a maverick and an innovator Tony is. So lesson 1, collaborate with senior stakeholders early. Tony's biggest learning was that even the best ideas need buy-in from decision makers. So build those relationships before you need them, not after. Lesson 2, learn the business inside and out. Don't just be an HR person, be a business partner who understands revenue and competitors and strategic priorities. Tony challenged HR professionals to know their company's turnover. Do you? And lesson 3, show your human side. Stop being the aloof rulemaker and let people see you're human with frailties, bad days, and emotions. People warm to authenticity, not perfection.
Al ElliottAnd here's the proof that Tony's approach actually works. Adidas became known as the talent factory, with a conveyor belt of leaders going to senior roles across America, Amsterdam, Germany, and around the world, really. That's the business impact of making HR genuinely human at one of the world's most recognisable brands.
Leanne ElliottYou can find Tony's book, Waggish Chronicles of a Maverick in a Corporate World, on Amazon and Waterstones, and connect with him on LinkedIn for more HR innovation ideas. As always, all the links you need are in the show notes.
Al ElliottThat's all for today. Remember, HR doesn't have to be the villain. You can be the one who changes the show entirely. But of course, it's your call whether you're gonna ask for permission first.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work. We will see you next week.