Truth, Lies & Work

Episode 25 · 8 February 2023 · 1:06:27

How to Lead Gen Z & Millennials: Key Strategies with Sophie Wade

Featuring Sophie Wade

How to Lead Gen Z & Millennials: Key Strategies with Sophie Wade

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  1. Why millennials and Gen Z don't follow linear career paths

    interview#millennials#gen-z#career-paths

  2. Resenteism: the new workplace trend

    interview#resenteism#workplace-trends

  3. Leadership development: the PepsiCo story

    interview#leadership-development#pepsico

  4. Cognitive vs. emotional empathy

    interview#empathy#cognitive-empathy#emotional-empathy

  5. Deep dive: how context shapes generations

    interview#generations#context#workplace

  6. How the Great Recession shaped Gen Z and millennials

    interview#great-recession#gen-z#millennials

  7. The strange idea of the office

    interview#office#workplace

  8. Multiple careers: the new normal

    interview#multiple-careers#career-change

  9. Why work means something different now

    interview#work-meaning#pandemic#work-culture

  10. The extended talent pool

    interview#talent-pool#workforce-structure

  11. Why the future of work took a pandemic to arrive

    interview#future-of-work#pandemic#remote-work

  12. Remote work: a nice-to-have or a must-have?

    interview#remote-work#necessity#work-flexibility

  13. Tip 1 — Learn how to listen

    interview#listening#leadership#empathy

  14. Tip 2 — Clarify purpose and values

    interview#purpose#values#leadership

  15. Tip 3 — Stay curious and genuinely care

    interview#curiosity#care#leadership

  16. Tip 4 — Transition the change

    interview#change-management#transition

  17. Sophie's final words on empathy

    interview#empathy#remote-work#change

  18. Wrap-up and where to find Sophie

    outro#wrap-up#employee-needs#employer-needs

Show notes

Leading Gen Z & Millennials: The Empathy Advantage — with Sophie Wade

Guest: Sophie Wade — Work Futurist, Workforce Innovation Specialist at Flexcel Network, author of Empathy Works and Embracing Progress, and host of the Transforming Work podcast.

The world of work has changed — and the future is already here.

Between remote and hybrid working, the rise of the side hustle, and a fundamental shift in what people want from their careers, millennials and Gen Z are demanding more from work — and from their leaders. So how do you lead a generation that doesn't see work the way you do?

Sophie joins Al and Leanne to unpack why empathy has become the new leadership superpower, how the 2008 financial crisis shaped Gen Z and millennial expectations, and why the "linear career" is dead. Plus: five practical tips for becoming a more effective leader for every generation in your workforce.

Top 5 Tips for Leading Millennials & Gen Z

  1. Learn how to listen. Empathy starts with listening — and that means listening to understand, not to reply. Clarify what you heard, and don't be afraid to ask, "Is that what you meant?"

  2. Clarify purpose and values. In a world where work means something different to every generation, shared values ground people and connect them. Purpose isn't a Gen Z fad — every human being wants it.

  3. Stay curious and genuinely care. Your people have a massive impact on your business. Stay curious about their lives, their motivations, and what they need — not just what they produce.

  4. Transition the change. Our brains aren't great with change, and the speed of change is accelerating. Help people navigate transitions rather than just announcing them.

  5. Remember empathy doesn't mean agreement. You can hear someone fully and still disagree. Empathy is about understanding — not capitulation.

Key Takeaways

  • Context shapes generations more than age. The 2008 financial crisis and the pandemic didn't just inconvenience millennials and Gen Z — they fundamentally rewired what they expect from work and leaders.
  • The linear career is dead. The idea of one job, one company, one path for 40 years is gone. Today's workforce expects multiple careers, side hustles, and constant reinvention — and that's not a flaw, it's a feature.
  • Resistance to change is costly. Leaders who cling to pre-pandemic ways of working aren't just out of touch — they're actively pushing away the talent they need most.

More From Sophie Wade

Research Corner

Al and Leanne are running research at Oblong HQ on what it takes to succeed in today's workplace — and they want your input. Take part in their latest leadership research: forms.gle/H654QD4nEgAjd4La9

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Sophie WadeThat's one of the big things that's really different for millennials and Gen Zs is they don't have these linear careers that they have to be much more proactive about.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to The Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture podcast, where we help you simplify the science of people. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al, and I'm a business owner. And if you're looking for tips for leaders or business owners on how to find great people, keep great people, and lead great people, you're in the right place. If you're looking for recipes for brownies, perhaps not. Although, Leanne, you do have a good recipe, don't you?
Leanne ElliottI do. Email me. But it's, it's not the funky brownies.
Al ElliottThe normal brownies.
Leanne ElliottJust the chocolate ones.
Al ElliottAnyway, welcome. Hi, nice, nice to Have you back?
Leanne ElliottWelcome if you're new.
Al ElliottYes, if you're new, we've, we've seen our numbers going up quite significantly over the last few weeks. So, uh, there is a good chance that you're new. So today's episode, The Secret to Leading Gen Z and Millennials with Sophie Wade. Uh, she is a future of workologist, if that's a word. Uh, fantastic guest, and she's got some really good stuff for you. Um, just want to kind of just give a little bit of context to this because 2023 is seeing more and more sort of shifts in work. We knew that the pandemic changed things massively, but also now with more and more millennials and Gen Zs in the workplace, it's really important to think about the expectations of this new generation of people working. So to help us explore what we can do and be more effective in leading in this shifting landscape, we are joined by Sophie Wade. She's a speaker, an author, an authority on future of work issues, and her book, Embracing Progress: Next Steps for the Future of Work, is an executive MBA program textbook and required reading for several management school leadership courses. She founded Flexcel Network, where she's a workforce innovation specialist, and her advisory and workshops help companies future-proof their work environments and attract, engage, and retain multi-generational and distributed talent. We'll dive into more of what that means in a minute. One of my favorite things that she said is, we are in a period of change. The new world of work is significantly more digitized and decentralized than before. We need to orient ourselves differently to be successful, shifting from transactional to human-centric management mindset and methods to deal with the faster pace of business developments, continuing uncertainties, more complex issues, and an increase in multidimensional projects. Sounds very clever and fancy. We will be diving more into that with Sophie shortly. So before we do go and meet Sophie, Leah, what's new in the world of leadership and psychology?
Leanne ElliottI feel like I need some kind of like jingle music behind me at this point. Can we do that in editing?
Al ElliottAl, when you're editing this, try and find some music to put behind this.
Leanne ElliottWell, no, I thought there's been a few things popping up in my kind of news feeds recently, and I thought this might be an interesting little segment to do at the beginning of the podcast. Let us know if you find it interesting. If you don't, we won't do it again. But for today, let's try. So yeah, some new trends. There's kind of, yeah, 3 or 4 different things I saw pop up today that I— or this week that I thought was interesting. The new trend, we've got a new word.
Al ElliottWhat?
Leanne ElliottYou know, we had like quiet quitting and the great resignation.
Al ElliottOh yeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottWe've got a new one. Res— I've not said this out loud before. Resenteism. Resenteism.
Al ElliottIs that when you resent someone bringing you a cup of tea?
Leanne ElliottYes. Resenteism. Resenteism.
Sophie WadeSure.
Leanne ElliottResenteism.
Al ElliottYou know, you know that I'm not gonna cut any of this out. It's just gonna be—
Leanne ElliottI know. I'm just looking for, I'm looking for like what it is.
Al ElliottYeah. Let's say, let's say it's resenteism.
Leanne ElliottYeah. You don't know.
Al ElliottI don't know. No, I've never heard it. I've never heard it before. What does it mean?
Leanne ElliottPresenteeism. It means that just people don't like their jobs, they're feeling resentful because they don't enjoy their job, but for whatever reason that they can't leave. Um, and apparently the crucial aspect of it is that they're not very good at hiding it, which can lead to, um, yeah, toxic workplaces, uh, for the, for the company and for the individual, could lead to burnout. Um, so yeah, I mean, I guess it's a natural thing, isn't it, after quiet quitting? Like, if you Start to disengage. I think we actually talked about this on, on the quiet quitting episodes. Feels like a while ago now we talked about that. But yeah, that's, I guess that's just what happens, isn't it? People start to, to resent the environment they're in if they can't leave it.
Al ElliottYeah, I think it's kind of similar to when there was the global financial crisis. People have got a massive mortgage, they were resenting where they were living because they were trapped in it. So I think it might all come down to the fact that you feel trapped. There's not It was maybe a year ago, 6 months ago, there were jobs out there. Now the job market is shrinking a little bit and some people are feeling trapped. So you can see why someone might, might resent it. And so our job as leaders really is to, is to acknowledge that and, and fix it, which again, probably might be an episode for a different day.
Leanne ElliottLook at you psychologising. I love it.
Al ElliottYou've taught me loads.
Leanne ElliottWhat else have I read this week? Oh, the tech layoffs are continuing, sadly. So yeah, we've heard that Google are making about 12,000 people redundant. PayPal about 3,000 people. And sadly, our friends over at HubSpot are reducing their workforce by about 7%. Yeah, it's a really, really tough time for the tech industry. And I think, you know, if you go back again to our, our Twitter episodes, we talked about the, the declining tech industry, the shifts that are happening, the changes that are happening. Um, but, you know, part of that is, is also, um, you know, the aside of the commercial imperative to maybe make those decisions is the human impact and the human stories behind it. So yeah, our hearts go out to anyone who has been impacted by the redundancies in, in the tech world at the moment.
Al ElliottIt does, it does. But then there's a way to do it. I mean, if you go back to the Twitter episode we talked about, we talked about— I can't remember his exact name, I want to say Stuart Collins from Stripe, um, and the way that, uh, that he handled the redundancy was very different to Elon handling the redundancies at Twitter. So it's unfortunately, it's part of business. You can't, you know, businesses aren't magic. They can't pay people if they haven't got the money or they feel they might have the money in the future. So unfortunately it might be It's not required, but it's the way you do it really, isn't it? What else you got, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottWell, another interesting thing I read this week, this actually popped up in Fortune magazine. I actually think it was from, from the December-January issue. I might be a bit behind.
Al ElliottJust catching up.
Leanne ElliottJust catching up. But, but yeah, it was talking about the power of leadership development, and I thought it was really cool. It's an article on PepsiCo, you know, like the Coca-Cola, but the other one. They've They've apparently churned out 16 Fortune 500 CEOs through their leadership development strategy.
Al ElliottThat's pretty impressive.
Leanne ElliottIsn't it amazing? Yeah, I mean, the CEO of Starbucks, Target, Visa, Foot Locker, um, Pernod Ricard, are all PepsiCo alumni. Um, so yeah, it's really interesting.
Al ElliottThey—
Leanne Elliottso yeah, the article is, is very good, and we'll link all of these in, in the show notes. But, um, yeah, investing heavily in in a culture of learning, not just in terms of leadership development, but in general, has really paid off for them, not only in terms of the incredible caliber of leadership they're producing, but in terms of their revenue currently sitting at about $80 billion and growing by about 12% a year, including on track for 2023.
Al ElliottIt's interesting because I think that, I don't know if this is the same in other countries, but in the UK, Pepsi is almost like the sort of like the poor man's Coke. There was that meme we saw, wasn't it, where You know, in pubs, like when you go into a pub in the UK, then you say, can I have a vodka and Coke? And if they serve Pepsi, they have to by law say, it's Pepsi.
Leanne ElliottIs that all right?
Al ElliottAnd both of us have worked in pubs. We've both said that thousands and thousands and thousands of times.
Leanne ElliottBut the meme was like, that should be Pepsi's tagline, wasn't it? Pepsi's tagline should be, it's Pepsi. Is that all right?
Al ElliottWell, that'd be really funny. But yeah, they're a massively diverse company, and it just goes to show that they clearly know what they're doing.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And, you know, early to the party in terms of, you know, the work that was done to put this in place. It was done back in the '70s and '80s by a psychologist called Bob Aitchinger. I think that's how you say it.
Al ElliottSure.
Leanne ElliottItchinger.
Al ElliottItchfinger. Bob Itchfinger.
Leanne ElliottI don't know. You see them written down. I've never heard them out loud. But it's Bob. So Bob over at Pepsi.
Al ElliottUncle Bob.
Leanne ElliottBetween 1978 and 1986. Yeah. Did loads of work in terms of psychometrics, in in terms of evaluating how executives behave, how they affect others, and how they can be more effective. So it just shows really that making that investment pays off for decades and decades to come. And I think what's really cool about it is it kind of dove into it, was that failure isn't just tolerated, it's encouraged. One, because it's putting people in those kind of stretch positions and helping them kind of come back and build that resilience and use the resources around them. It's just really good for performance in general in the future.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottBut also kind of that theory of, well, if they make the mistakes now, they won't make that same mistake when they're CEO, and that mistake is gonna have a lot more impact.
Al ElliottI'm guessing this is something to do with the whole idea of being empathetic towards someone's decision-making. I mean, rarely, I don't think anyone makes a bad decision deliberately. You know, you'll make a decision based on the information. We always say that, that people are doing the best they can with the information they've got. And so if their information isn't, isn't fully there, then it's a bad decision might be made. But the key is, like you've said there, is that the senior management Are empathetic towards the fact that a decision had to be made. It happened to be the wrong one, which would probably be proved in hindsight rather than at the time. And so I think this all brings us back to the idea of empathy. And so I think leaders know what it's like to fail, and they need to create this sort of safety for anyone else. And so that they can make a decision, but they also know that they can pick them back up if the decision isn't the right one. Which we just mentioned out there. Pepsi sort of breeding that into their leaders from the beginning. So that brings us to, to ask the question, is empathy the new leadership superpower? And so that's what we're exploring today with the help of Sophie, this work futurologist. We're gonna be talking a lot about empathy and about generations and about leaders. We, we, we go on all kinds of tangents with this. I think it's a really fascinating interview. But I wanna start off just asking, what is empathy? Because I think we all think, oh yeah, empathy, we know what it is. But there is a big difference between empathy and sympathy, isn't there, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottThere is. There is a difference between— and I actually saw a really good graphic. I think it was on LinkedIn the other day. I can't remember if I saved it, but it's basically like kind of showing the differences between kind of like sympathy, empathy, compassion. It was cool. If I can find it, I'll, I'll, I'll put it on the old LinkedIn group. Um, but yes, but in terms of empathy, there's also different types of empathy. And I think this is really, um, a good way to think about empathy in the world in terms of kind of leadership and business as well. So yeah, a psychologist called Daniel Goleman identified 3 different types of empathy which are important for effective leaders. The first is cognitive empathy. So that's the ability to understand another's perspective. I think that's a really key thing when we're talking about generational differences is, yes, we acknowledge there's differences, but really the value is understanding each other's perspectives.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd why, you know, we, we have different ways of, of looking things. So that's cognitive empathy. The second is emotional empathy. So that's, you know, being able to, to kind of feel, empathize what another person feels, which is getting in the hole, really.
Al ElliottThe whole idea of getting in the hole just gets you to think they're being a bit weird, a bit fruity. When we both trained at Samaritans in the UK, that's how we met. We were both volunteers there. The training there is fantastic. And they, they have a really good sort of video that describes the difference between sympathy and empathy. There's a diagram of a man down a hole. Alright. It's actually a stick person. So I don't think it's, I don't think it's gender specific. And so this, this stick person is down the hole. And the idea of sympathy is you stand at the top and go, oh, that looks really rubbish. Are you okay? Empathy is you get a ladder, you get down in the hole and go, it's dark in here, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah. A really, really great way of thinking about it, I think. So, yeah. So that's emotional empathy. And then we have empathic concern. So that's kinda that ability to sense what What do other people need from you? So, it's, you know, it's one thing to say as a leader, this is what I need from you in your job. You should also be asking to have that empathic concern. What do you need from me to help you do your job more effectively, do it better? So, there are different types of empathy that we often see in terms of leadership and business. But we also asked our incredible guest, Sophie, how she views empathy and why it's so important. In the post-pandemic workplace?
Sophie WadeUnderstanding each other better. It's putting myself in your shoes. How do you see the world? And trying to connect with your experience. So empathy is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and feel what they're feeling. So what is it that you're going through? Whether you're working remotely or working on the other side of the world or come from a different culture, all of these different elements are important, more important now for me to understand because of the working business and working environment that we're in now.
Al ElliottSo I think what Sophie's there is saying that empathy is more important than ever because we are in a very different work world than we were 5 years ago. Pandemic has basically, we've always said the pandemic has accelerated the, the, the changes in the workplace by probably about 10 years. So we, we now need to be, thanks to the fact that we communicate via Zoom, perhaps we don't really meet people that often face to face. We need to understand other people's perspectives much better, understand their emotions, understand their needs. So the fact is that the workplace has changed. So how and why has it changed? Well, the reason we're looking at different generations in psychological research, or I'm not, but the psychologists are, is that the pace of change since World War II has seen us grow up in very, very different worlds. Because millennials and Gen Zs may feel like they have nothing in common with baby boomers and baby boomers, they might say, don't know what it's like to be young.
Leanne ElliottYeah, they, they might say that. And I think this is where this cognitive empathy comes in from, from all of our perspectives. Um, you know, whether, whether you are a leader or an employee, let's try and understand where each other's coming from. Let's not forget baby boomers essentially invented youth culture. Like youth culture wasn't really a big thing until the '50s and '60s. So actually you can't really say they don't know what it's like to be young because they were the OG of what it was to be young. Mm-hmm. And, you know, everything from disruptive fashion, you know, the scandals around miniskirts that came in the '60s, huge changes in music with Little Richard, the Beatles, Elvis, all that rock and roll generation. You know, those kinds of artists sparked moral panics, you know, associated with everything from race mixing to the deconstruction of sexual morals to the open use of drugs. And, you know, the Beatles used to sit down and openly admit in interviews that they did LSD when they were recording. So, you know, you, you may well have bit more in common with the baby boomer generation than you think.
Al ElliottYeah. And I think that's probably one of the things about generations is that you always think it was better 20 years ago. There's that joke, isn't it? Nostalgia's not as good as it used to be. And, and, and so you always think that. And then I think that your parents, like the next generation above you, don't really understand. I remember back in the '90s, I was watching what was called alternative comedy back then in the UK. I dunno whether it went to other countries, but things like Mary Whitehouse Experience, Um, and it was just a bit irreverent and a bit silly. And my father came in one time, we're looking at it, and went, this is alternative to comedy. And he thought it was the funniest thing he's ever said. Um, but now I look at stuff that's on TikTok now that people sort of like 17, 18, 19 are sharing, and I'm like, I don't understand why this particular meme means this and why it's funny. So it just goes to show that yes, we have a lot more in common in terms of the way that our generation Is progressing, or we kind of, the, the patterns that we follow. But when it comes down to it, we can't, we find it very difficult to look at a generation 1 or 2 below us, um, and understand what's, what they're saying and what they're thinking.
Leanne ElliottYeah. But I think, I think that's because we're stuck in context. You know, you think about what you said there. You're saying, you know, I don't, you know, I don't really understand the, the TikTok and, and what, you know, the whole interest and intrigue in that platform. Yeah. In terms of early adoption in, in technology, You were, you were really early to that party. We, we talked in, in your interview, um, about how you're using Google Ads back in 2006. You know, it's— so I think that the connecting point is that you have a shared interest in disruptive technologies. The actual nature of that technology and what it means for your life might be slightly different, but the curiosity is there.
Al ElliottThat's a good point. That's a good point. And as you get older and fatter and greyer, um, you think, I can't be bothered. Like, I slack. I just, I don't wanna learn. I don't wanna use it. I hate it. I don't know what it is. Uh, whereas 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I was like right on the cutting edge. Okay, what's Twitter? Now let's learn everything about Twitter. So, um, I think—
Leanne ElliottBut again, I call bullshit. I'm sorry. That's just grumpiness. That's not a generational perspective. You say that, but I think it's more, again, you, you're not interested in, in Slack for whatever reason. Yet what are we using now that I'm like Descript? And then Leanne, there's this another new app we need to use, and we're redoing our website, and we can do X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, that's nice. You are still interested and intrigued by new technology. I think it's just more the context of what it can do and what it brings to your life has shifted.
Al ElliottSo really good point. So let's talk about context for a second. So let's do a deep dive into the changes and disruptions that have changed the workplace recently.
Leanne ElliottThis is all from the perspective of, can we understand each other better if we actually take a moment to really think and reflect on The environments we grew up in that maybe shaped our perspectives, and particularly the perspectives of millennials and Gen Zs. I think the first place to start really is with the Great Recession. I believe that's what you guys call it on the other side of the pond. I've heard it more referred to as a global financial crisis in Europe. But yeah, it's basically the 2007-2008 recession, described at the time as one of the most severe economic and financial meltdowns we've ever seen since the Great Depression back in the 1930s.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliott'30s. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then I suggest you watch a film called The Big Short. Um, it's excellent, very, very good film, if a little, a little hard to follow sometimes.
Al ElliottI've watched it twice and I, I know I understand about 20% of it.
Leanne ElliottI think the first time I watched, I understood maybe like 20%. The second time, maybe like 60%. Um, but it's really good. It's got Ethan Hawke in it, Margot Robbie.
Al ElliottMargot Robbie in a bathrobe.
Leanne ElliottIn a bath, yeah. No, it is, it's a really great film, but it's all around the kind of the run-up to, um, the Great Recession, which was really triggered by a sudden downturn in the real estate market. Um, and yeah, not, not shockingly homeowners, but also, uh, Wall Street as well. Huge firms went under, including Lehman Brothers. You know, JP Morgan were buying out struggling investment firms, and massive insurers like AIG needed government bailouts. to stay afloat. Didn't take long before that chaos in the finance sector started to hit us all in our everyday lives. You know, that 50% loss of value in the stock market that we saw in just 2 years between 2007 and 2009 also then led to almost 9 million jobs being lost. It was a really awful scenario, particularly for the older millennials that were just starting to look for work after finishing university. Many, many of which were unable to find employment. You know, at its peak in, in 2009, unemployment between 16 to 24-year-olds was almost at 20%.
Al ElliottWhich is incredible. And I think we need to remember the oldest millennial was 26 when the global financial crisis hit. And that's just the beginning of their, of their work career. And, you know, it felt that, that there was no opportunity to go and buy a house. I mean, you look on TikTok or anything on Instagram today, and there's loads of, like, people saying, There's no chance of us buying houses. And they wanna blame someone. So, so a lot of them do blame boomers or maybe my generation, Gen X. But the fact is that these things happened. The global financial crisis happened, and it changed everything. And the impact is still going on for both Gen Z and millennials.
Leanne ElliottIt is. And, you know, I, I've seen some things on TikTok pop up recently about millennials, a couple of things about them looking, looking younger than they are, either looking much younger than they are or much looking much older than they are. Like, rarely does a millennial look their age. And this could all, you know, be, be a contributor of things like this as well, because maybe, you know, we didn't have the stress early on of, of the high-risk jobs because we couldn't find one. Or maybe we aged prematurely because of, because of that stress. But yeah, decreased savings, a reluctance to buy purchases, um, reluctance to buy homes simply because everywhere you looked, people were getting repossessed or going bankrupt.
Al ElliottYes. I, I've been both bankrupt and had 2 houses repossessed. So, so yes, I, I can totally appreciate and understand why it is a scary thing. So this impacted me as a, as a Gen X, but it's not just been the impact on millennials, but Gen Z too, as Sophie explains.
Sophie WadeThe Great Recession in 2008 impacted millennials and Gen Zs a lot. And I didn't even realize till recently how much Gen Z, they were much younger, were watching, and they were all watching what happened to their parents, to their parents' friends who may have been working somewhere for 20 years and were fired no matter— there was no loyalty in terms of how they were treated. And that had a very, very long-lasting effect in terms of attitudes towards companies, concerns about financial stability, which is really where Gen Zs come from. Millennials have been more about purpose and mission and vision, but Gen Zs have been more focused on the financial security or some kind of income stability.
Al ElliottReally interesting. We do look to the generation above us, our parents, and see what happened with them. And my parents were caught up in the whole property crash of the '80s. And so that spurred me on in a different way to go and buy lots of property, which I did. later on in life. But yeah, it's really, really interesting, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah, it is. That's definitely something that has happened in, you know, the last 20 years. It's had a massive impact on, on our world of work. The, yeah, the Great Recession. The second, of course, technology. Technology has changed everything. And I think what's interesting, you know, working in an office was our own invention. You know, it was a necessity of what, what we had at the time rather than our preferred way of working. Here's Sophie to explain some more.
Sophie WadeAnd that was, it's been enabled by technology. It's not that we decided years ago, like, we should all be working in the office 'cause that's the optimal way to do this work. Absolutely not. It was because we started working with many more computers. The computers were all sort of large and expensive and heavy. We had desktop computers, we had to be in the office, it was a fax machine. Then you got fax machines at home 'cause they got cheap enough that you could have them at home. So that gave you more possibilities. But it's all been a function of what we're able to do. Now we have very smart, relatively inexpensive computers. We can do work from anywhere, so why would we not do that? We have designed this technology because we want to be using it in different ways, and we've developed touchscreens because that's the more intuitive human-type way to be using these amazing technologies. So now that we've designed it with a purpose, let's use it. And it has come a lot through consumer applications, but, you know, so pulling it into the businesses, the business world has taken longer because we have sort of more entrenched ways of doing things, I guess.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's Us, by the way.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network.
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking. And you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of It is.
Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Sophie WadeI am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back. I'll cut that out.
Al ElliottKeep that in. It is kind of a strange idea, this office idea, that we all go to one, one place, sit down, do our work, eat our packed lunch, and then go home.
Leanne ElliottPacked lunch. I love a good packed lunch. No, it is, isn't it? It's like this whole idea that, you know, work is where we go rather than what we do. Yeah. If you're interested, that the whole idea of the office dates back to the 1900s, the early 1900s. It was actually all based on a time and motion study by F.W. Taylor applied to the office environment. Yeah, advocated for large open floor plans, desks that typically revolved around some kind of supervisor or manager, which sounds like now really, doesn't it? Large open-plan offices with your boss in the corner office.
Al ElliottYeah, and I think that it's weird now because, because of the pandemic, because of the technology, it's moving faster than ever. We don't need to be in one place anymore, so it means that we can all do this remotely. So it basically, as Sophie says, the future of work has arrived.
Sophie WadeIt's much faster. It's much less predictable because of technology. Generally, the future of work, which arrived catalyzed by the pandemic, not caused by it, but catalyzed, accelerated that we are now having to work in very different ways. We are, the nature of work has changed because of technology. We're having to work in much more, you know, many, much more in teams, much more project work. Non-routine work has grown significantly over the last 40 years. And therefore, because it's not predictable, because we're having to work together, it requires us to work much more human being to human being. And we can't have that stiff upper lip, just bringing a formal two-dimensional self. We need to be there. We need to be really cooperating and collaborating. And that requires us to understand each other more, particularly when we're also dealing with a lot of uncertainty, having to pivot as we were doing during the pandemic, but less extreme conditions.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Sophie WadeBut still, there's still a lot of dynamism in the environment, and that's going to continue because of the pace of technology. So in a more human-centric environment, it's that what I look at as a technology and the talent balance to the technology environment is that we need to be focusing on people because we are the people who are using the sophisticated technology and tools and all of that.
Al ElliottSo there you go. The second thing that's affected the workplace changes is technology. Number 3 is this idea that we no longer have this linear career path. Um, I know that my dad, for example, who's boomer generation, struggles to understand the idea of someone just working somewhere for 5 years and then going off, cuz he spent 40-odd years in the same, not the same job, but the same company. So I think that it is very different for millennials and Gen Z. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottIt is. My dad was the same, and he started his apprenticeship with Manweb, electricity company, and they trained him up, took him to university, electrical engineering. He stayed with that company until he retired. Um, yeah, it's, it's not like that anymore, you know. Times have changed. And as Sophie explains, this is one of the aspects of work that is really, really different for both millennials and Gen Zs.
Sophie WadeThat's one of the big things that's really different for millennials and Gen Zs is they don't have these linear careers that they have to be much more proactive about. And when I see with old, you know, their parents or, or, you know, their bosses don't necessarily, don't necessarily recognize how much has changed and how nonlinear it is. And so they're not really— they can't be as helpful to them.
Leanne ElliottYeah. And, you know, taking that idea further, we're starting to see people that will have more than one career. They'll have multiple careers or portfolio careers. I mean, even us, I'm an old millennial, Al's a young Gen X. How many careers have you had, Al?
Al ElliottI worked on the railways. I worked in restaurants.
Leanne ElliottHe really did, though. That's the funny thing.
Al ElliottNot as a navi. You know, I'm not that old.
Leanne ElliottNo, exactly. I've had 3, I think, 3 distinct phases that I would say different careers.
Al ElliottYeah. And we've talked, and we, like, from our personal point of view, we've talked about this. We've said, right, now podcasting is almost like another career. We spend a lot of time on it on a weekly basis. Maybe in 10 years' time, if podcasting is taking off, then we stop doing our consultant stuff and just talk for a living. And that's our new career. And that's how we retire is we just just talk on a podcast, which would be quite good fun, wouldn't it?
Leanne ElliottYes, I, I love doing the podcast. So yeah, absolutely. And, you know, you know, Sophie advised that we should not only just be aware of this, but we should be planning for this as individuals and as business owners.
Sophie WadeThere was an article, um, published in September 2017 in the Financial Times which said that every individual should plan for having 5 careers over their lifetime. Everybody. So this is my second career. My first one was sort of strategic development finance, you building business models and financial plans and helping people raise money, all that kind of stuff. So what's going to be my next one? And it makes it easier also for Millennials or Gen Zs because when they're exploring different elements, different types of roles, marketing or strategy or finance or being an influencer, whatever, it's like, this is my next career or this is my current career, and it doesn't have to to block you in and sort of limit you in terms of what you're thinking about because you can build transferable skills and then use them in different ways, which I think really opens up the possibilities. Because when we were coming into the workplace, if you picked marketing and then you didn't like marketing, you're kind of stuck.
Al ElliottSo the 4th change is this shift in what work actually means to us because we all know the pandemic, We're sick of hearing the word. The pandemic has completely changed what work means to us. And a lot of us are looking about whether work shapes our identity and fits into our life. Is it like a transaction? So is it something we do or is it an identity, something we are? What does work actually mean from a human perspective? Here's Sophie.
Sophie WadeSo in the past, you know, when I joined, it was more true actually in the '50s and '60s. But it was still, as a Gen Xer, I sort of still felt it was true that when I joined an organization, you could possibly stay there for a long, long, long time, and you'd put in these very, very, very long, hard hours working, toiling into the wee hours. And over time, you would build up, you could build up a little nest egg, and then you'd retire at the end. So there was a reason to put up with this really boring work, and then eventually there'd be a payoff. That equation doesn't exist anymore. That lifelong employment that ends with retirement, Gen Zs are very, very aware that they, one, don't have any job security, and no company is going to even pretend to guarantee them any kind of job in 4 years' time, never mind you know, 20 years' time, and they all believe that they won't be able to retire.
Leanne ElliottI think what Sophie's explained there is really the fundamental shift we've seen in what work means to us. Work used to be more transactional when we knew we were getting a guaranteed paycheck every month. We knew that we had a job for life. We knew we had a safe, um, and enough of a pension pot. That doesn't happen anymore. So we need to find more from our work, if that transaction doesn't have the value it used to, we need to find more. And this is why, you know, Gen Zs and millennials are looking for work that gives them meaning, that gives them purpose. Because doing work with no meaning, doing work that doesn't add value to us, or doing work that is boring makes us miserable. And equally, having work with a purpose that aligns with our identity, with our values, with our beliefs, with our ethics, that serves as a huge motivator, but also a huge sense of fulfillment. Meaning and purpose in the literature are core aspects of psychological well-being. So work without them for too long is just a certain path to poor mental health and burnout.
Al ElliottThe other thing that's changing is the actual structure of workers and organizations. There needs to be a change, or there needed to be a change after the pandemic because of the remote work, but also now, as we've just talked about with the layoffs earlier, Um, that we need, we need to just change the way that actual workplaces physically work. So Sophie talks about extended talent pools and what this really means to millennials and Gen Z.
Sophie WadeThe extended use of the talent pool and the fact that I do see, you know, where we're going in terms of ultimately gonna, you're likely to have smaller core full-time employee talent pools and much more use. I mean, this has been been trending for a while, much more use of the extended talent pool, which is sort of outside of sort of familiar freelancers and independent contractors, because that makes sense for companies who are having to pivot and be more nimble, but also for people who don't want to be beholden to one company. If I'm a Gen Z and I know that I have no job security, I would rather not have one employer. I'd rather have many clients. That so if one person, if one company pivots and I'm not needed anymore, I still have income. That's why around 60% of millennials and Gen Zs have a side hustle. For most of them, it is about having some kind of income stability.
Leanne ElliottWhat Sophie's given a really good example of there is how these shifts in work can actually benefit both organizations and employees. You know, what we're looking at with extended talent pools is really dipping into, into skills that we might need more periodically, um, or on an ad hoc basis, rather than skills that we need all the time. And equally for millennials and Gen Zs, it provides them with an opportunity to have control over the money they earn, control over the work that they do, and gain back some of that control and security that we've lost over the past 15 years. So yeah, I think I think it's smart, and particularly when we get times of peaks and troughs, if organizations are able to adjust and pivot in a way that doesn't result in huge layoffs that we're seeing now in the tech industry, and the trauma and mental health challenges that come with that, that can only be a good thing, not only for individuals, but also for the reputation of organizations, And their capability in terms of responding to changes in the economy.
Al ElliottYeah. And I think the next change, which is really sort of taking a bit of, I think, a bit of an impact, is this idea of unretirement. I think, did you say it was called the great unretirement? Is that another?
Leanne ElliottYes, yes, it is.
Al ElliottAnd so older people left the workforce during the pandemic, but obviously since that's hopefully all disappeared and behind us, There's, there's this cost of living crisis which is pushing the, pushing the price of everything up. I mean, if you've ever bought eggs or butter recently or chicken, you'll know that, you'll know that they are maybe twice or 3 times the price as they were before the pandemic. So what this is meaning is that older people are either staying on in jobs for longer or aren't even considering retirement.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it's true. And, you know, it's a trend that, that, you know, we're, we're more than likely gonna, gonna see over the next few years and older people either staying in the workforce or returning to the workforce. Workforce. I mean, just in general, the proportion of the population aged over 50 in advanced economies is projected to rise from about 37%, which it was in 2022, to 45% by 2050. So yeah, I mean, you add that into kind of like you say, Al, we're living longer, countries are raising their retirement age or completely abolishing it if people want to continue to stay and work. Of course, you know, underfunded pension schemes and that lack of security that we have, you know, older workers are more likely to remain in the workforce, but also they have a critical role to play in helping to address, you know, the talent shortages that we've seen and we continue to talk about. Sophie has a really interesting perspective on this. She doesn't just think that reimagining how and when we retire is good for business, but she also thinks that it's healthier for older workers. Yeah.
Sophie WadeSo there are a lot more possibilities now. Yes, many corporations, many large corporations particularly need to change some of their— how the contributions to pension plans and stuff like that need to face down because they only have sort of 100% contributions or zero. So there are a lot of different elements that need to change, but this has been ongoing. I wrote my first book 5 years ago and I was sort of saying this is something that we can do in order to help those transition out. It also means that older folks aren't hanging on because they want to sort of stay involved but don't want to drop from 100% to 0%. And so again, their expertise can still be enjoyed, all the understanding they have about the business and the things that have been tried. We're in a very, very different phase of business, different ways that things are working with all the different technologies. and changes around the world. But there are lots of things that have been tried that can be useful to be thinking about, to be sort of sharing some of those experiences, to be coming up with new ideas. So that's why I think retirement is something we can look at differently now.
Al ElliottShe makes a really good point. Those people retiring take all the skills and knowledge with them. And of course, there's going to be a transition. But the other thing is that now people are living longer. Living more active lives, then when they do retire, you know, they're like, well, what do I do now? I don't have to get up at 6 anymore, and I've been doing it for 40 years. So, yeah, it makes perfect sense from both ends, from both people who are retiring to have something to do and perhaps scale down what they're doing, but still be involved. And those companies who've got, who've invested 40 years and X, you know, millions of pounds in their salary, uh, to keep those skills and knowledge in the company.
Leanne Elliott100%. So I think, you know, they're the, the main shift. That, that we've seen in, in the workforce over the last 15, 20 years. And all of these changes are understandably impacting how we all think about work, but particularly for millennials and Gen Zs that were growing up amidst these changes, it's really influenced their attitudes towards work. So just to recap them quickly, we have the Great Recession, as is the financial crisis in the noughties, which massively brought into question What work means and the insecurity of being in jobs with organisations. Second, technology and how this has facilitated us to work from anywhere in the world. So why are we still clinging on to the office idea that was founded in the 1900s, the early 1900s? The third shift that we've seen, you know, we no longer have a linear career. Again, that security isn't there, so people are much more likely to have portfolio careers or more than one career within their working life. Making life. And then of course, work has changed it for us in terms of what it means to us. The pandemic has had a massive influence on that, and not just what it means to us, but how work actually fits into an organization. So for example, individual roles don't have to necessarily be, be full-time all the time. They can dip into these extended talent pools to make sure they've got the agility they need to stay competitive. And finally, people are working longer, and the nature of retirement is changing and will continue to change. So that in itself as well is going to have a continued impact on our working lives.
Al ElliottSo clearly the world of work is changing, the workplace is changing. Literally every single day, more and more millennials and Gen Zs are in the workforce. So there are opportunities for businesses to benefit from this. from these shifts. So why do you think the resistance is, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottI think there is a resistance there, and it does feel a little bit surprising, and I think Sophie feels the same.
Sophie WadeI thought that we would have— I thought the future of work was going to arrive in 2017, but it took a global pandemic that sort of shut things down, that sent everybody to be working from home to really shake things up and make a huge difference. So because human beings like habits, we have our entrenched way of doing things and we're not comfortable. We've been straining against making the changes necessary because it does require a huge amount of change, which is why it's so painful what we're going through now because so much is changing at the same time. And so that is That has been absolutely fascinating to me.
Leanne ElliottA quote comes to mind, Al. Um, necessity is the mother of invention.
Al ElliottOh, I like it.
Leanne ElliottBecause I think it's, you know, Sophie's right there. It doesn't seem to— logically, it doesn't really make sense why we're not embracing these changes, because there are huge benefits to them. But equally, change sucks. We really don't like change. Our brains don't like it. You know, we enter this, this threat state, this fight or flight state. Flight state, our brain chemistry changes. We spike in cortisol, blood flows away from our thinking brain, our prefrontal cortex, and flows towards our emotional brain, our amygdala. So there is, you know, a lot of focus on the change itself. How do we make remote work work in the pandemic? Whereas actually, with change, the pain that Sophie's referring to there is the actual psychological transition that we need to go through to be comfortable with the change and accept the change. And typically, you know, the change can take quite a long time, but the traumatic situation of the pandemic was that everything happened overnight. We didn't have time to make that psychological transition. It's still lagging. And I think that's why we're seeing leaders switch back to office working, calling people back in, you know, because environmentally during the pandemic, we made the change. Psychologically, some of us never actually transitioned.
Al ElliottSo what do we say to these leaders who don't want to do the whole remote thing. We have lots and lots of people who talk to us and say, I want people back in the office. And you have to ask why. Because as we discussed before, the office is kind of almost like an archaic sort of construct. We now have all these amazing ways of collaborating remotely. So why are people using— why are people resisting this? Sophie talked about a client that asked this question in one of her seminars.
Sophie WadeI had with him was Middle of the pandemic. I think it was sometime during 2020. And so it was very much based on what he was comfortable with, and he would like to do that again because that was sort of comfortable. And I think for a lot of people who've been working the same way for a long time, that one, if you can see everybody, it feels more manageable. You can kind of feel like you can get your arms around it and control it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Sophie WadeAnd you can feel sort of prone if everybody's spread out and you can't see them. However, in this new era of business and work, that kind of relatively rigid structure and mindset that goes with it are not helpful for being able to be adaptive and flexible to how we need to be working now. Customers or our competitors, And deploying new technologies, which means their customers are changing their behaviors, which means our customers might be going over to them. We, we need to be thinking about keep updating our technology.
Al ElliottSo I think we just need to remember that remote work, it's not a kind of nice to have anymore. It's what millennials and Gen Zs want. And it's what, let's be honest, if you are a Gen, if you're a Gen Z, it's a large percentage of your, of your work life has been probably using almost exclusively Zoom and not going into an office. So we can't— we can no longer sit here and go, that's not the way we want to do things, because it's not up to us anymore. It's up to our workforce. Okay, so now we know all this. We know the reasons why it's changing. We know what the different generational— different generations want from work. What do leaders need to do to kind of navigate this new era? What superpowers do we need to develop?
Leanne ElliottIf I understand what Sophie is saying, and in terms of, of empathy, and empathy being a leadership, um, superpower that we need in this new era. I guess it seems to follow for me that if we're removing the human from kind of workplaces in, in terms of, of more technology, in terms of working remotely, then we need to— some— then we need to put some back in, you know. We need to reinvest in that relationship. And, you know, this isn't a new thing. A relational approach to leadership has been around for a while, and empathy, you know, has been identified as a trait that does result in more effective leadership. You know, empathic leadership builds on this, and it looks a bit deeper at the impact of empathic behaviors. You know, like we saw it, that, that learning culture from Pepsi. Um, you know, how do I as a leader, and what I do and what I say is acceptable, not only shape the culture but shape the individual and the work environment I'm, I'm creating? And more recent research has also shown us that empathy helps to build resilience in our people. Studies show that empathic leadership also translates into high levels of innovation, high levels of retention, greater inclusivity in the workplace, and also an improved work-life balance. We have the human and business case for empathy, I feel. So, the question is, how do we develop it? How do we develop empathy? Yeah.
Al ElliottWell, luckily, you've got Leanne, Super Lea, here, because she's identified 5 ways to incorporate empathy into the workplace. I'll go through them quickly, and then we'll go through each one in depth, and we'll listen to what Sophie's gotta say. So the first one is to listen. The second one is to have clear purpose and values. The third one is to stay curious. The fourth one is to transition the change. And the fifth one is to apply empathy in everything. So let's start with listening.
Leanne ElliottSo the first way to incorporate empathy within the workplace And as a leader is to listen. Empathy starts with listening. Listening is so important. It's not an easy skill to have or to practice. Al, you are an incredible listener. Tell me about your— how you listen, your listening technique, and why it's so important.
Al ElliottThe temptation there was to make a dad joke and go, I'm sorry, I wasn't listening. I won't do that. But we're Yeah. We're better than that. We're better than that. Um, it all comes again back down to Samaritans, learning how to listen to people. Um, I think just if you want a couple of quick, quick hacks, and by the way, thank you for saying that. We're— I think you're a very good listener too. I think we're both good at it. Um, but a couple of quick hacks. First of all, don't be thinking about what you're gonna say next when someone's still talking. Um, the number of times when you see conversations where really everyone in the conversation is just waiting for their turn to talk rather than actually listening. And secondly, just allow silence. What's, what's amazing is when we do interviews, or Leanne does any kind of like recruitment work or whatever, or I do customer interviews, when you ask a question and at the end you leave a gap, if you leave it long enough, then often what will happen is someone will say something they either didn't mean to say or wouldn't have otherwise said. And that's where the gold is. I think it's called a golden pause, I think, in the interviewing world.
Sophie WadeYeah.
Al ElliottUm, so just 2 quick tips there. But listening is not something that you can pick up straight away, do a, do a 2-hour webinar and go, I'm a great listener now. Um, you need to practice it in every single day.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. Let's hear from Sophie about listening.
Sophie WadeSo what you said and what I understand may be very different. So then you can clarify and even maybe clarify what you said.
Leanne ElliottCollaborate.
Sophie WadeOh, well, no, what— this is what I actually was trying to say. And then I kind of go, oh, okay, so that's what I— so that interaction just there Really shows mutual respect because we're showing each other, we're trying to understand each other, and we get then to a place where we literally just have a better interaction. We can have better outcomes because of more information being shared, more detail being shared, and then getting to a more productive result. So the leader isn't being creepy or intrusive. I mean, And there could be some, if you sort of go too far, we're like, well, what? But the empathy is really just about sort of reading someone, trying to understand their body language as well as their face if we're doing virtual interactions, but really listening to what they're saying. So there's a lot of different clues, but listening to what someone is saying and just trying to sort of show the respect for somebody, and then with more information, being in a strong position to make Better decision based on, on that information and understanding.
Al ElliottSo my thought, and it might be yours too, was what happens if where you listen and you don't actually like what you hear, or people tell you, yeah, we want this in the workplace and you can't do anything about it. I asked Sophie about this too.
Sophie WadeEmpathy doesn't mean you agree with them, but you are hearing them. So I think it's always valuable to allow someone to be heard. It doesn't mean, you know, you kind of go, yeah, yeah, we'll do exactly what you want. Um, it also doesn't mean ignoring it. Because I think, yes, if you have somebody speak up and then you completely ignore, don't do anything about it, I think then transparency is kind of like, okay, so Al, I hear what you're saying, but— or but isn't very helpful, but— and these are some of the reasons why we may not be able to do that now or never.
Al ElliottBut let's Okay, so the first one is to learn how to listen. The second one is all about clear purpose and values. Now, we've talked all before about empathy is understanding others, but we need to invest equal time and effort into understanding ourselves. In addition, having a clear vision and value that translates into the role within your business, both as a leader and then also all your employees having the same vision and values that translate into their roles, is really going to be the cornerstone of effective leadership.
Sophie WadeYeah.
Al Elliottleadership in this new era of work. So if you're struggling with hybrid or the remote thing right now, it could be that you're missing something. It could be you're missing these values, as Sophie explains.
Sophie WadeCompanies are doing that because it's the values that sort of ground people, that connect people, that make them, allow them to feel sort of connected and part of an organization wherever they're working from. They do look for skills, but often skills can certainly be taught. But if they're aligned in the purpose and the direction of the company, and they have the values that are going to allow them to work together effectively, I mean, Atlassian has a value, one of their values is radical transparency, I think they call it. They're very, very open and have these strong debates about a new feature or what they're going to do.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Sophie WadeYou need to be prepared for that because these discussions can be quite tough. Somebody who is very low in the company can, and it's not very hierarchical, but can really question somebody much higher up or much more experienced. They won't have the same weighting if they don't have the same experience, but they can certainly speak up and are welcomed, and their opinions are solicited. So that is And very much how things are moving forward for many companies in focusing on the values and recognizing that the skills are changing so fast that if I were to hire you today, great, but you're going to need new skills in the future anyway. So where you are now is not where I need you to be in 5 years' time or 2 years' time. If you have the mindset that you're interested in learning, you want to develop and grow, and it looks like where you want to go is probably aligned with the company, where, where, you know, where we think the company's going to go, and you don't mind, you have the mindset, you're flexible and adaptable, if we need to pivot and go in a different direction, okay, you're on.
Leanne ElliottAnd purpose is equally important, especially when the meaning of work is shifting, and not just for Gen Z, but for all of us.
Sophie WadeThe idea of purpose and mission and vision, all the rest of it, Every human being actually wants that, and people engage, whatever age, whatever arc they are, wherever they are in their sort of career arc, in terms of if you help them align with the purpose of the organization, the mission of the organization, and help them understand how what they're doing on a daily basis connects with moving the company, moving the mission forward, they need to find more meaning in the current work. Yeah. Like, why am I doing this? Because it's not going to get me in this nest egg. It's not going to get me some sunset beach and cruises in my 60s. So I need to connect more with what I'm doing now to make it have any meaning whatsoever, to make my life have any meaning, and to give me security. So I want to— that's the other piece of the puzzle. I want there to be meaning in it, and I also want to have some feeling that I was sort of talking about values. Like, what are the company's values that I can connect with, that I can feel comfortable that you're gonna be transparent with me? You're going to sort of give me some understanding of how the business is maybe pivoting so that I can make some decisions about what I need to do or where I need to go, or what skills I might need to develop because of where we're seeing the company is going.
Al ElliottSo the third thing is to stay curious and genuinely care. I mean, if you're an entrepreneur, if you're listening to this and you've started a business, you're already curious. Um, that's the reason why you started your business. However, it might mean that you need to learn actually how to care about people as individuals, because entrepreneurs are very good at solving problems. But when a problem, when it's like sort of a market problem or a, um, a technical problem, they're great at it. But people are really complex, as Leanne keeps saying, they're individuals.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd they have this massive impact on your business. So you need to stay curious about, basically curious about people, about individualized or the empathic leadership.
Sophie WadeLike, if that's where we're going, great. And then it is very interesting to me that, you know, we've got this very challenging, you know, relatively painful period of change. And, and that is something I don't mind change. I, I like learning. I, I, I I sort of enjoy change and I'm comfortable with it, but a lot of people aren't comfortable with it. And so I'm passionate about trying to help people with the information that I have and trying to sort of communicate that this is a good place we're going. It's gonna be a bit messy getting there, but it is a good place that we're going.
Leanne ElliottAnd tip 4 is transition the change. Like I said before, our brains aren't great with change and the speed of change that we went through with the pandemic, might mean psychologically we have a little bit of catching up to do. Change will only be successful if we address the transition that we are experiencing, and coaches are a really great way of doing this. So life transitions are basically key turning points. That could be something like losing your job, it could be getting married, it could be buying your first house, it could be a global pandemic. And the varying degrees of challenge and opportunity that, that come with them is gonna, gonna inform how disruptive we experience that change to be. And it can happen quickly, whereas transition is an internal psychological process. So change is external, transition is internal. So understanding life transitions in this internalized way and normalizing the emotions that we're feeling can often facilitate our ability So working with a coach to look at life transitions, look at changes, is a really effective way of making successful changes. And if you'd like some more information on that, we do also have a free self-coaching guide on this. Do get in touch via email or LinkedIn. So what happens if we don't do the work and we continue to resist the change? Here's Sophie.
Sophie WadeIf I am a Gen Z, it doesn't make sense because I'm like, I can't stay competitive, which harms my ability to actually maintain, be able to pay my rent, be able to buy food because everything is moving so fast. I need skills. I need to— so there's sort of the connection of values. Does my potential employer have values that I connect with? Is the company in a place? Is it competitive? Because otherwise I'm worried for myself. And so it's not sort of self-absorbed, it's sort of, I need to be thoughtful about myself because my employer's looking out for themselves and not so much me. I mean, that's kind of the reality of where we are these days.
Leanne ElliottSo I think Sophie really sums it up there. If we continue to resist this change of remote work, of hybrid work, of investing in development, in skills-based training, of making sure that we have the technology within our business that, that people want to work with, you know, we are making ourselves less competitive. We're making all of our decisions, everything about our business about us when it should also be about our employees. That's how we engage great talent in this new era of work.
Al ElliottSo here's some final words of wisdom from Sophie.
Sophie WadeOne thing, the reason I came up with the idea or, or the reason that empathy ended up being the solution that I found. It wasn't like I kind of went, oh, empathy, we all need to be hugging and kissing and being kind and nice to each other. That's not what it's about at all. When we're going through so much change, there's so much less predictability, there's so much uncertainty, and we don't know where we're exactly going to be going.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Sophie WadeAnd we need to be supporting each other more, really leaning into that empathy and listening to each other and remembering some of those, not only just the typical learnings that we actually did learn a lot from the pandemic, during the conditions of the pandemic, but some of that raw vulnerability that we shared was very helpful in connecting us. understanding that you are a 3-dimensional person. The people on my team, they're all people, and with the good and the bad that goes with all of them and me too. And that can really help us get through this challenging period of change, which is going to take several years for sure. So I think it's really like, why does empathy matter and how can it be applied? It can be applied in everything that you do, just in terms of taking a little bit more time connecting. You don't have to be best with your team members, but having deeper relationships, forming that, developing trust-based relationships, sharing, binge-watch TV shows, all those type of things that can really help you have better interactions, more productive, and better outcomes, but also make everyday work that much more enjoyable and flows much more easily. So I think the reason— so the question would be about empathy and kind of like, I look at it as being a company value, a corporate value.
Al ElliottYeah.
Sophie WadeAnd a mindset, being more open-minded and inclusive about people, about, you know, across every dimension, and then being the skill that you practice. So it is fundamental, I believe, to getting through this period of change and getting as painlessly as possible out the other side.
Leanne ElliottI love that Sophie said there that empathy is something that we can practice just like investing in deeper trust-based relationships is something that we can practice. It's something that is an— should be an active practice in what we do as a business leader. If you are reluctant when it comes to remote or hybrid working, and that reluctance comes from a place of like, it's harder to build these relationships, these trust-based relationships, these collaborative relationships, but are you actually investing the time in building those relationships? I think that's an important distinction. Definitely.
Al ElliottI think it's all about thinking about what is it you want and what is it your employees want. You might want people in the office because you want to feel like you are important because you've got lots of people around you because perhaps you are an extrovert where you, you, you get energy from other people being around you. Perhaps you just want people to look in the window and go, God, look at them. They're doing well. But that's about you. It's not about them. And just as you wouldn't go out there and sell a, sell a product that you knew was brilliant, or you were like, yeah, this solves my problem but doesn't solve the customer's problem, that's not gonna work commercially. So why would you try and enforce your opinion on the people who work with you?
Leanne ElliottAnd that, I think, sums up empathy beautifully.
Al ElliottLovely. Well, it's been another beefy episode. Thank you so much to Sophie. We'll put all of her details on the show notes. Definitely go and check her out at sophiewade.com. She's on LinkedIn, obviously. And we'll put a link in there. She's also got a podcast called Transforming Work, some fantastic episodes on there. And if you're interested in learning, then why don't you go and look at her courses on LinkedIn? I think if I remember, they've got over half a million people have enrolled, or almost half a million people have enrolled in these courses. There's 3 or 4, if I remember. There's one great one about sales. So if you have got some salespeople, go out there and have a look at these sales ones. We will link to that in the show notes.
Leanne ElliottWe will. Some really great resources there. And if you are convinced empathy is the next leadership superpower, empathy is the secret to leading millennials and Gen Zs, then do check out Sophie's brand new book, Empathy Works: The Key to Competitive Advantage in the New Era of Work.
Al ElliottWell, that's been a long episode. It's been a lot of work putting it together. Thank you, Leanne, because you put together all the clips. That was brilliant.
Leanne ElliottYeah, okay, I did. I did see your sly little LinkedIn post the other day.
Al ElliottWhat was that?
Leanne ElliottWhen you were like, oh, when I'm, when I'm putting the show together and when I'm editing and when I'm, I'm cutting out the clips and I feel like I know you, but I know it was Leanne that did your interview, but I feel like I know you because I spent so much time on the podcast.
Al ElliottDo you know what? I actually deleted that after, after you, you pulled me up on it the next day. I reread it. I was like, yeah, I'm a bit of a knob. So I deleted that one. Anyway, right, talking—
Leanne ElliottI was just more thinking, oh, brilliant. I'm, I'm clearly duplicating work here. I've got it in hand.
Al ElliottThis is— yeah, that's backfired on me. All right. So we'll see you next time, next week for another episode. In the meantime, go to truthliesandwork.com if you get all of the— have I got that right?
Leanne ElliottPerfect. I think it's the first time because it's the first time you ever have got it right.
Al ElliottI built the website to register the domain. I still get it wrong. So go to workliestruthworkplaceculture.com. And you'll, and you'll see all the episodes, you see the show notes for this. And also, we are looking to start off a new LinkedIn group around this. So look out for that. Make sure you follow Leanne on LinkedIn or me if you want. I'm a little less interesting than Leanne.
Leanne ElliottThat is true, to be fair. No, it's not really. Al's really cool. One thing that I meant to mention at the top, so maybe Al, you could actually cut this out and put it a bit further up because I worry at this point people won't still be listening.
Al ElliottLikely.
Leanne ElliottWe're actually running some, um, research at Oblong HQ at the moment, our consulting company, on what it takes to be a great leader, um, in remote and hybrid environments, which feeds into the theme of this episode quite, uh, quite importantly. So if you have 10 minutes to complete a survey, if you are employed If you work remotely some or all of the time, then please go and check it out. We will leave the link to that in the show notes.
Al ElliottSee you next time.
Leanne ElliottBye-bye.
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