Episode 271 · 29 January 2026 · 1:00:59
271: "This Is and Will Always Be the Best Place I've Ever Worked", with Gemma & Xav from Studio XAG
Featuring Gemma, Xav
271: "This Is and Will Always Be the Best Place I've Ever Worked", with Gemma & Xav from Studio XAG
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Building a great place to work from the gut
panel interview#company-culture#workplace#leadership
Inspiration from Dutch studios and shared lunches
panel interview#inspiration#dutch-studios#office-culture
Dividing leadership: creative director vs managing director
panel interview#leadership#roles#creative-director#managing-director
Ego, ideas, and disagree in the room, commit outside the room
panel interview#ego#decision-making#teamwork
Home life and talking about work at the dinner table
panel interview#work-life-balance#relationships#communication
What happens when they disagree?
panel interview#conflict-resolution#partnership#disagreement
The future: why 60 is enough, not 600
panel interview#future#business-growth#strategy
The best place I've ever worked and takeaways
panel interview#employee-experience#takeaways#culture
Show notes
"This Is and Will Always Be the Best Place I've Ever Worked" — with Gemma & Xav from Studio XAG
Guests: Gemma Ruse and Xavier Shariff — husband-and-wife co-founders of Studio XAG, a 60-person brand experience agency designing and building experiential installations for brands worldwide.
What happens when two art students fall in love, start freelancing together, and accidentally build one of the UK's happiest creative agencies?
Gemma and Xav join Al and Leanne to share the story of Studio XAG — the agency behind a 35-metre boombox on Diesel's Carnaby Street facade, a certified B Corp where people regularly say: "This is and will always be the best place I've ever worked."
They met at 20 in a house share at Central Saint Martins. They've been together for over 20 years, running Studio XAG together for 16 of those. And in this conversation, they're brutally honest about what it's really like to build a creative business with your life partner — the complementary strengths, the stubborn moments, and why sometimes the best business advice is simply to ask yourself: "What does this feel like in my stomach?"
This isn't a story about having it all figured out. It's about trusting your gut, knowing when enough is enough, and building culture through brilliant work — not ping pong tables.
Top 3 Takeaways
Trust your gut. That feeling in your stomach when you're making a decision? It's underrated as a leadership strategy. Xav and Gemma have built a 16-year business on it.
Define what "enough" looks like. They need 60 people to do world-class work. They don't want 600 because they know it would change what they've built. Knowing your ceiling is a feature, not a bug.
Great work IS culture. You don't build culture with forced fun and ping pong tables. You build it with a shared red thread of attention to detail — and hiring people who see it too.
More From Gemma & Xav
- Studio XAG: studioxag.com
- Gemma on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/gemma-ruse-646979a
- Xavier on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/xavier-sheriff-49091132
- PR contact — Ellie Glason: ellieglasonpr.com
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThis week we're doing something a little bit different. We've got 2 guests. They're a married couple who also happen to run a business together. That sounds terrible, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottIt sounds familiar, that's for sure. Although I have to say, Gemma and Xavier have been at it a lot longer than us. They've been building Studio XAG together since 2009.
Al ElliottAnd here's what you're going to love about their story. They didn't set out to work together. They were just 2 art students living in a house share, taking on freelance projects. And then one day they realised the work they did together was way more interesting than what they could have done separately.
Leanne ElliottWhich is exactly how it happens, isn't it? It's never this grand plan of let's start a business together. It is a lot more like, well, this project's too big for one person, fancy helping? And then suddenly 15 years have passed and you've got 60 people working for you.
Al ElliottJust in case you haven't heard of Studio XAG, they're a brand experience agency. They're the people who design and build those incredible pop-ups or the installations or the experiences you see and you think, how did they do that? If you might have seen the 35-metre boombox they clad on Diesel's Carnaby Street store, that was all them.
Leanne ElliottAnd what's brilliant about this conversation in particular is they're brutally honest about what it's really like, the good bits, the hard bits, and why sometimes the best decision is to cry it out with your co-founder over a large box of chocolates that just happen to be your spouse as well.
Al ElliottYep, I think we've done that. Plus, they've got this phrase that has been rattling around in my head since we spoke to them. This is and will always be the best place I've ever worked. That's what people say when they leave Studio XAG, which tells you everything you need to know about how they've built their culture.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo let's join Gemma and Xav after this very short word from our sponsors. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot. Because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
GemmaI'm Gemma. I'm the co-founder and creative director at Studio XAG. So my role is to at a top level, oversee the creative output of the studio, working very closely with my associate creative director and our brilliant design team, and also to work with my co-founder and husband, Xavier, to shape the vision and future direction of the business.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I'm Xavier. I'm the other co-founder, also Gemma's husband. So, she's my creative director in business and in life. And yeah, I set Studio XAG up with Gemma way back in 2009. We started from this place where we designed and built everything ourselves and installed it and project managed it and the whole lot, really. And we've still kind of stayed really close to that with our business model. We've just added 60-odd people into the mix underneath. So, but we're still all under one roof.
Al ElliottFor someone who hasn't heard of Studio XAG, just give us like the overview of what they, what it does. Maybe start with you, Gemma.
GemmaSo, we are a brand experience agency. We design and build spaces that tell stories for our clients. So, we work with brands all over the world to create environments that draw people in, get them excited about interacting with a brand. That could be a pop-up, an event, a window, any sort of physical experiential installation that gets people talking and wanting to learn more about the brands that we work with.
Al ElliottDid you always want to do it together?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)We get asked that a fair bit, and it's an interesting one because it's a little bit like asking— it's not a bad question, but it's a little bit like asking someone, did you know when you first— for us, it's a bit like asking, did you know when you first got together that you'd be together forever, right? And so, we got— Gemma and I met as young students, 20 years old, In a house share. And yeah, we were both at art school and we were both designing and building every day in our kind of studies and also kind of connected into the worlds of fashion and design and product and all that sort of stuff. And pretty handy, I'd say, you know, could turn our kind of creative hand to all sorts of projects. And that was very useful for people that we knew that were already working in the industry. What happened was we were both commissioned to work in the industry, you know, as freelancers, and then eventually the projects got so big and unwieldy that we needed each other on everything that we were working on. And the rest is history. That's how we formed Studio XAG. We saw this gap in the market for—
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)both creativity and high-quality kind of execution to come together. They were happening separately, but it was very, very disjointed in lots of places, and we're still doing that today. So did we always want to do it together? Was that the plan? There was kind of no other option in a lot of ways, but it definitely made a lot of sense, and it's because our skills are complementary. So we are aligned on taste, creativity, Attention to detail, even the kind of more soft stuff like values and how we operate and how we want to be seen and how we want to behave. But the skills actually are different in the sense that we balance blue sky thinking with practicality, and both actually take that role at different times in different ways. environments. That's why it's worked, essentially. And I guess on the side of that, running a business with someone is really tough. And it's been amazing to have someone who implicitly trusts you, you implicitly trust them, but also has got your back when you screw things up and things are not perfect. Because that is a thing that happens a lot in the beginning and all the way through your career.
Al ElliottAny thoughts, Gemma?
GemmaIt wasn't really a plan. Originally, it was 2 young lovers fresh out of university trying to establish what life could be and sort of working one job to the next. And it really snowballed from there. As Xav said, our skill sets are very complementary, and we found that the work that we could take on together was far bigger and more interesting than the work that we could do individually. So, it was a bit of a no-brainer really. We work really well together. So, it was very, very organic in the early days. We freelanced individually, and then we were like, well, we should probably officialize this. And we did. And the first time we ever used the name Studio XAG publicly was actually when we clad a 35-meter boombox onto the facade of Diesel on Carnaby Street. And we sprayed a little Studio XAG tag on the bottom of it. And I was so proud of that project because we used to do those facade treatments on Carnaby Street for Diesel quite regularly. And this one was by far and away the most ambitious, but often they would get graffitied or torn down, or people would respond to them in a way that wasn't ideal. And nobody touched the boombox. And for me, that was a sign that people respected the boombox. That's always stayed with me. Like, if you make something great that people love, it will hold its own in the world.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I love that project because it's over 16 years ago, that project now. And I'm still, if that brief came in today, we'd still be like, the whole business would be absolutely buzzing for it. So, It stands up. I think the other thing that's quite interesting about the question is, we graduated in 2007. My whole time at university, we both went to Central Saint Martins. I was personally told, don't set up on your own, don't make a studio. It's not a good game to get into, basically. It's hard, you'll never do it, just get a job, essentially.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Don't think it's quite the same in fashion, 'cause it's quite normal to sell, but potentially a bit of encouragement, discouragement from going out on your own. But then 2008 happened, you know, within minutes of us graduating, financial crash, there were no jobs. And actually there were a lot of people, our contemporaries, who accidentally or deliberately started studios, businesses at that time. And it was because you were the young whippersnappers. Yeah, probably we were cheaper, we were faster, we had less red tape. But we were able to be competitive and a bit of a blessing in disguise really in lots of ways for us, that horrendous financial crash. Because yeah, we were able to jump in and be kind of reactive and responsive to the market.
Al ElliottCan you tell us a bit more about how you've set up your agency for, to make it a great place to work?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Well, it's interesting actually, because we, again, Gemma and I have never worked anywhere else, right? So a lot of our values and the way we operate in the culture And the behaviors of our business have just come from the gut. So, you know, Gemma and I both come from a very honest, kind, friendly, human-centric place because we don't have a hugely corporate background. And as we've grown and become more corporate in inverted commas, we've had to kind of figure out how that evolves. I guess what I mean by that is at the beginning, you're a small studio, you've maybe got 2 employees, 4, including yourself. You know, I literally cooked lunch for everybody every day for the first, what, 2, 3 years maybe. You know, occasionally someone else would have a go. And it was a really nice, very kind of holistic way of building an artistically based studio. And the culture of kind of like equality and everybody being on the same mission is a given and kind of baked in in a way that just feels very natural and organic. But as you grow, It's difficult to hold onto that because different things happen. You have more people, you are structured in a different way, your clients grow. And I think you start talking about numbers, all this sort of stuff, you know, that you just don't do at the beginning. I don't know, maybe some creative studios do, but we didn't. Like, you know, it was all kind of like, do the work, work a lot, see what happens, see what comes out in the wash. And we were very lucky. We had a very, very Steady organic growth through those first few years. But the culture shouldn't change because your values should remain the same. And I think that is what happened. But there was definitely a point in our growth where you kind of react to that. You get worried that everyone's starting to— you're losing your grip a little bit on the culture and the behavior and all that's starting to change. And you kind of react with the things that you're told to react with, which is— You know, have more conversations, more one-to-ones, more performance reviews, more things, throw more parties. And all that stuff is really important. And we bring all that, we still do all that. But actually what we've realized more recently, certainly in the last few years, is that you can't do that. And that doesn't work unless you still have a really, really Clearly defined mission purpose that you are on together, that is well communicated, that everybody understands. And above that, or not above that, alongside that, that the work is good for us, that you attract ambitious creative clients, that you sell to them, which is like a really, can be a really dirty word in a creative business, but it's absolutely essential, and that you deliver it together. Because in the end, really, like, your creative employees who are brilliant, they wanna deliver great work. Don't waste their time is kind of how I think about it, you know? And if they do deliver that great work, they will have a portfolio and a legacy of their own within the business and externally that they'll be proud of. And that is essential to have alongside all of the nice stuff, which is being nice, listening to people, making sure it's a comfortable, healthy, inclusive place to work. Absolutely. But it doesn't create culture. What creates culture is doing that while delivering brilliant work. That's what a creative business is, in my opinion.
Al ElliottWhat are your thoughts, Gemma?
GemmaI'm a very nice person, Al. That's a really silly answer, but As Xav said, neither of us have worked meaningfully anywhere else. We've had bar jobs and the rest of it, hustled to make some cash, but we've never been employed in a meaningful way within any sort of corporation. So, it was done on following our guts of how would I like to exist in the workplace and how would I like to treat people and how would I like other people to treat me? Equality, fairness, listening to other people, just generally getting along together. What we do is fun, playful, frivolous. It shouldn't be a horrible environment. It shouldn't be— of course, there are pressures of budgets and timelines and demanding clients, but— I always believe that we should be able to be swan-like and rise above that and enjoy ourselves. It's fun stuff that we make. And my personal taste in terms of the creative output of the studio is very bold. It's very playful. It's, can we be a bit daring here? And I'd like to embody that in the work that we do, in the environment that we create. Our studio itself embodies those principles. The workplace that we've created is colorful. That's all based around sky and sun and the earth. And yeah, I just think the way that, why wouldn't we want to make a good place to work?
Al ElliottI'm curious, where did this inspiration for this come from? Is there another agency perhaps that you look up to and go, we'd like to be like them, or another business?
GemmaNo, truthfully, not from my side. I mean, creatively, from an ambition and a type of work perspective, yeah, absolutely. There are loads of people out there killing it that are inspiring, but in terms of culture and workplace environment. I think that's quite innate.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Agree. I think there is like a lot less noise about it when we started XAG. If you think like 2009 is like Twitter just coming onto the market. So, it wasn't like we were all on LinkedIn and like reading about how amazing all of these business leaders are in these highly polished kind of personal brands. But Actually, I think ignorance in a good way, whatever the positive ignorance is, what is the positive of ignorance, can be quite a beautiful thing. And I think that not knowing how everybody else is doing it is actually quite healthy sometimes because there's this thing, isn't there, about gut feeling and Gemma and I are both, I would say both, well, maybe I shouldn't talk for Gemma. I'm a very emotional person and I'm an empath for sure. And that is hard as a business leader because sometimes you need to be a bit tougher. But what it means is that your gut feeling is generally pretty good. And that when I say my gut feeling, I mean the feeling in your stomach when you're making a decision about the business, who to hire, who not to hire. Uh, you know, whatever the difficult decision is you're making that day, what, who to work with, who not to, that gut feeling is good. Um, and it's normally pretty right. And actually that's what your team are looking to you for. They're looking for your decision, your intuition. Privately owned, we're husband and wife team. Ultimately, if we say we want to do it, we're going to do it. If we say we don't want to do it, we're not going to do it. But it's always with the best interest of the business at at its heart, and that's because it is our baby. It's one of our babies, it's our third baby. I think that if you hold that, like, what do I actually feel is the right thing to do here? That's normally okay. Of course, you've got to check, make sure you're legally right, that HR's right and all that stuff. But in the end, how do I feel about this decision is an important part of how we run the business.
Al ElliottGemma, when we were talking there about inspiration, your face sort of like went, oh, as if you had an idea.
GemmaWas there— Yes. I remembered something from the early days, the Dutch studios, specifically Piet Heinik. I remember seeing in a book this furniture maker that I admired, Piet Heinik, and seeing into his studio, and they had this beautiful long table, and they all have lunch together. And that is, as I've said, how we used to do it in the very early days. We don't do it anymore, sadly. But there's something about that culture, and that was me remembering a specific studio that I could point to and say, yes, I found that inspiring.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And that's totally true, actually. We were inspired by, I think, so I did an internship at a company called Fredriksen Stallard with Patrik Fredriksen and Ian Stallard, who are amazing artists, product designers, and kind of creatives. And it was the same. I interned there, we had lunch together every day, someone would take turn to cook every day. Definitely the Dutch stuff. Gemma also did a lot of those internships in those small studios, fashion studios. So you do take a lot of inspiration from those places of, oh, that felt really good, and how it feels. And actually, yeah, to say we don't do it anymore, we kind of do. We built a whole studio that I'm in now. That has our workshop and our design studio and our production studio all integrated under one roof. And we have a huge, probably 10-meter, something like that, table in the middle, in what we call the base, which is where everyone eats lunch. So we've brought that right from the very beginning, from the kind of spark of that idea all the way through to the end when we were finally able to, after 12 years of being in our previous space, which we were busting at the seams. We're finally able to bring that vision back to life, and we've stayed true to it. We still, we don't live here anymore, which is great, but we used to live in our studio a long time ago, but we still design and build in the same space. Everybody's treated with the same respect. Everybody eats together. And I love that. I think that's really good, 'cause it isn't totally universal, that. One of our clients, in fact, to take inspiration, Montblanc, if you go to their headquarters in Hamburg, the engineers from the factory who make the writing instruments and any of the other goods that they make in Hamburg, they are in the same building and they eat together in the same canteen. So, you have these very, very well-dressed execs in their suits, uh, you know, with the guys in their overalls. They are very clean overalls, I must say. But, uh, but I love that. I feel like that is— they're respecting the craft, whether it's you're a CEO or a, or a fabricator. We respect that we are both experts in our fields.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number 1 management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number 1 marketing podcast are both on the We actually have a lot in common.
Al ElliottWe both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Fel, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Seamless. Seamless.
Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)We've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI've got that.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Keep that in.
Al ElliottI need to ask what might be a bit of a dull question, but the division of the leadership tasks between the two of you, is it fluid? Do you have specific tasks? How does it work?
GemmaWe have very distinct roles for the most part. So I'm the creative director and Xavier's the managing director. We also have other senior leadership within the business who do lots of other wonderful things. So for the most part, it's, It's very clear and has been for a very long time. Where we're pushing into new areas, sometimes we have to figure that out a little bit, or what part of that are you going to take? What am I going to take? But people generally know what they'd come to me for and what they'd go to Xav for.
Al ElliottAnd was there any kind of jostling for that creative director title, seeing as you're both artists?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)No, never. Gemma is a better creative than I am. My creativity comes through in different ways, let's say. Like, I'd studied product design. I'm a maker. I was brought up by a carpenter. Like, you know, I was really good at like making all of the stuff happen and not being too afraid of the scale of it. And Gemma is never afraid of the scale of creativity. So like, we— can and do create, design, build anything. And yeah, we very quickly fell into that. And then from a really boring administrative side, I took more easily to the business side of it. So the numbers and the, let's say paperwork that is not paper anymore, but Gemma didn't like it and therefore it didn't happen. And so I just understood it really, I found it easier to understand and I knew that it was essential. And so I was a very early FD, let's say. And I've continued on that train. And yeah, the salesy side of things. fell just more naturally into my remit. And then, you know, people also like working with us because we are a couple in a lot of ways. So we, you know, I wouldn't say we play on it, but we use that to our advantage. It's great to have a founder in the room, but it's also great to— they like, there's a trust there that they genuinely get from knowing that we've got both sides of those things covered. that it's going to be highly creative, but also it's going to work. It's going to be on time. It's going to be safe. It's going to be legal. Whatever it is that we need to make happen in whatever country in the world that we're doing is going to happen.
GemmaWe have a weird dynamic, I think, where we are both good at supporting each other and we both take turns in a way of being the visionary and the more pragmatic, practical one. So, on any kind of creative project, client work, or something that we're trying to achieve creatively, I will be the visionary and I will know what I want to achieve, and Xav will be the one who can help make that reality. So, whether that is hanging a massive floating house in the middle of a store or whatever it is, I won't know how to make that happen, but I will be confident that we can figure it out, and Xav will— Figure it out or not anymore, because we have a wonderful team who do all of this for us or with us. But that's very much how it was in the early days. And it's almost the other way round in business. Xav has a visionary business idea and I can help him make that happen because I'm a little bit more practical.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Logical.
GemmaOkay, well, if that's what you want to achieve, these are the steps that we need to take. These are the people that we need to bring on the journey, and this is how we might be able to make that happen. Quite an interesting duality there.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah. And I guess as the business has grown, you do start a little bit by employing people in your image and you're like, oh cool, I'll have another one of those please. I'll have another one of those. And that, but actually to talk to the team a bit, because nothing happens without them now, uh, you do that and then you find different people who are sort of similar or whatever, and you kind of, you multiply like that for quite a long time. But now we're definitely in a stage where we're, it's really important to find people who have skills that we don't have and that our team don't have. Because that's the, that's the now where we are is that's the real growth is that actually we don't actually know how to do this thing or create that process or go into that market or whatever it is. Let's find someone who does. And of course, so much of growth is about finding people who are genuinely brilliant and can take you there. You know, you just need to build the ship, as it were, and let them get on.
Al ElliottWhat about the ego? Like, both of you are excellent at what you do. Both of you, like you say, that you sort of like change a little bit and you excel at one part of the business and then you excel at creativity. I sense that a lot of people who have creative agencies, someone wants to be the person who came up with the idea, but there's 2 of you. Do you share it? How does that work? Or do you not even think about it?
GemmaI wouldn't say it's something that we've thought about in any sort of pained way. It depends what the idea is in terms of setting the direction and the vision for the business and where we want to go and who we want to be and who we want to be working with. That is something that we do together. And we discuss it, we go round in circles sometimes, and we align on it, and then we share that with the team. And it depends what the other idea is, but I don't think there's a, I mean, we are all humans and we all have egos, right? But I think we're so aligned and we're so like in each other's lives. We've been together for over 20 years and we've been running a business together for 16 of those. It almost doesn't really matter who had the idea so long as we're both on the same page.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Mm-hmm.
GemmaAnd we both stand behind it and we both keep saying it.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)When does it matter that you had the idea? I think what is hard about, one of the things that's hard about running a business, it's not a new concept, is the feeling of being an imposter and not being good enough. And man, do you reach that level all the time? I do anyway, because it's really stretchy, like growing from 2 to 4, 4 to 6 to 10 million. It's really, really stretchy. Every single step of the way is just like new problems every day. And not only that, you're bringing in these people on board who are fresh to it, and they are going to make the same mistakes that the people did 5 years ago. They just, you know, with all the systems and processes in the world, it happens, and it's part of life. You just have to accept it. So sometimes it's important, I think, in contrast to what Gemma was saying, to document, maybe unofficially document, What did I do that was good today? What decision did I make that was good, that was a winning decision? Because so many of them are not, and you have to be okay with that. Just to know, just to back yourself. In terms of ego, the reason I'm saying it is because you say the word ego, and I'm like, your ego is important because if you don't have one, if you don't think you're good, it's not a good situation being a founder of a business, being a managing director, being at the very top of anything, being top of creative or the top of business or whatever it is. You need to have a bit of ego. You need to back yourself. So, and I think sometimes you can lack that a bit and actually it can be quite hard as you bring experts into the business because they're inherently better than you at lots of things, which is like, you know, great. But also then you're like, well, what am I good at now? You know, and you've got to go back to it. What am I good at? I've built this. I'm good. I'm smart. I make good decisions. People, you know, all those sorts of things. So it's important to feed that sometimes so that you don't end up not taking any risks, defaulting to the easy answer, or ultimately, and I've seen this with a lot of my contemporaries who run businesses, shutting the business down or slowly winding it down through a lack of growth mentality, which is not healthy. And the other thing, and I'm not sure whether this is connected or not, is One of the amazing things about the business that we work in, and when I say the business, I mean the industry, is it's always new. And newness is a big factor for it. People want something different. You're very, very rarely doing the exact same thing that you've done before, certainly in our slice of the market. It's pretty challenging and it's not easy money, let's say. It's just not. We can scale, but we can't really scale our what we do because it's so bespoke. You need to have a certain amount of ego to do that because you've got to believe that you can do something that you've never done before, you know, by following process, by bringing amazing people on board, by collaborating with people. You know, that's another thing to mention. Our team is incredible, but also a lot of, over the years, we've collaborated with people who, specialist engineers, lighting, all these people who can make all this magic happen, the show happen.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Um, they, but you need to have the moment of like, we can do this. And that does come a bit from ego, I think.
Al ElliottSo as you're either entering or approaching sort of 7-figure turnover, what might you have said to the 2 kids back in 2010 when they were just approaching their first, their first mil? What advice would you give?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Man, take more holidays. Take more holidays.
GemmaThat's exactly what just came to me at the exact same time.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah, I don't even know if it was really necessary, but we didn't take enough time off. Um, you know, we worked hard and we had a good— our 20s and 30s were good. Like, you know, we partied, we had fun, but we didn't take enough time off. And now we've got kids and we're taking more time off and it's great, but obviously it's really fun taking time off before you have kids as well. Let's be honest. Take more holidays. I guess like, you know, what we do is, as Gemma said, it's not very serious. It's playful and fun, but to the people that we work for, the clients and their jobs and their brands, it's incredibly serious. And, you know, it feels like a little bit like life and death sometimes, doesn't it? Like people are like, oh my gosh, it's not gonna happen. And, you know, you don't miss a deadline, all that sort of stuff. It's very, very theatrical in that sense. But we learned, didn't we, quite early on with a few critical moments where things weren't gonna happen, like we weren't gonna hit a prototype deadline or something, a window got pulled out a day or a week before it was supposed to be pulled out or something, that ultimately just have a conversation with the client.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Make it, you know, be honest and try and fix it as quickly as you can. And it's generally all right.
GemmaDefinitely agree with you on take more holidays. That's the number one. But the second one would be taking a more proactive approach to growth sooner because we have had amazing growth over the last 16 years. And it has been very organic, and that's no bad thing. But in terms of the clients that we work with, in the pandemic, we lost a few clients, a lot of shops closed, budgets were tightened, common story. And that was the first point in our career. So, we'd been 10 years old at that point that we actually started actively going out and asking our dream clients for opportunities. And we hadn't done that for the first 10 years. We still worked with fantastic clients, but had we had that more proactive approach earlier on in our career, we might have bagged those dream clients even sooner and been working, yeah, at a different scale, more visible earlier on.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Great one, Gemma. Thank you for bringing a growth one in there.
GemmaYeah, well, it was just a mindset shift for us because we were very busy working for great clients, you know, no regrets at all. But when I understood the power of asking the clients that I'd always wanted to work with for opportunities and they said yes, I was like, oh, we should have been doing this before. But other than that, like, I don't really have regrets and I don't really want to change things massively. So I wouldn't want to meddle too much. Who knows what would happen with the butterfly effect?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I think there are probably some practical things I could share that might be useful for your listeners. Like, we had always had an accountant. Someone recently asked me, when would you recommend getting an accountant? I was like, immediately, no matter what you're doing, don't be crazy and do that stuff yourself. But Good financial advice, very late on, in the last few years for me, really. And, you know, we're talking about big numbers. Like, we've been a 7-figure business for, you know, most of that time, I'd say. Big numbers. You need to think about the money that is in your business as an investment opportunity. And I'm still on that journey, to be honest. And that's partly because It's such a big amount of operating capital you need to do what we do because we work with all these blue chip clients that demand a lot for quite a big credit line, as it were. Like, you know, we, we, it's changed a bit now, but it is difficult when you're small and competing against big companies. So you need to have this big load of cash to be able to actually work and pay everyone and all that sort of stuff. But the rest of it can be treated like an investment opportunity and use it to to drive growth and revenue and different revenue streams and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, and then also, of course, and then so from that side, good professional business financial advice, good personal financial advice, look after yourself, make sure that you are going to be okay because ultimately it's on your shoulders. And for us, that's, that's, it's a family affair. So it's not like we can lose our income and then, you know, the other one can pick up the slack. It doesn't, it doesn't work like that. So I've had that on my mind, at least for the last 8 years where we've had children, that it's like this, you know, we're not playing around anymore. We need to be careful. And that's not like planning to be, but, you know, being smart with how you work and get the right advice. It's hard to find, but you've got to pay for it. And that is something that is hard to swallow at the beginning because you're like, why would I pay this guy to tell me to do something with my business finances or whatever? But I think it is worth it.
Al ElliottSo let's talk about home life. So do you talk about work at home?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yes, we do talk about work at home. The rule is we shouldn't, and you have to check each other, but it's really hard not to. That's the honest truth of it. It's the main topic in your head all the time, isn't it? It's going around and around. And I think that's the bit that, probably the bit, the bit that no one warns you about is not that you'll talk about it all the time. I think that's pretty obvious, but it's that you'll think about it all the time. And I was once having a coaching conversation with someone, I was being coached, and they said, how many hours a week do you work? And I came up with some number, whatever it was, 40, 50, 60 hours, whatever it was at the time. And they were like, I think that's not true. Think about all the time that you're thinking about it. And it is sometimes you are thinking about it, you know, all of your waking hours and some. And that's the hard bit, right? We have to check ourselves. The kids really do not like it. And it's not like that's a really toxic thing, but they just behave badly when we're talking about work. To be honest, they don't like it when you're not talking about anything that isn't something that's entirely focused on them. So that's been really good for us. I think kids have been really good for us because you are forced. We are forced to leave work on time. We're forced to go home. We're forced to be a family, we're forced to take more holidays. Many, many, many positives from having dependents because it changes the whole way you operate. Gemma and I just used to work late all the time and you sort of realize it was just work expanding to fill time available. Do you know what I mean? It was like, you can work till 9, 10, 11 every night. It doesn't matter. And then you don't employ the people that you need to employ to do the work. This happens between 6 and 10 or whatever. They can just do it in the day. When you're paying them to do it.
Al ElliottSo, do you literally ask the question, are you okay to talk about work, or is it a bit more informal than that?
GemmaWe do do that sometimes because we all, we have very different things bubbling away in our brains. You know, our days look very different, and the things that Xav is thinking about are not the things that I'm thinking about, but there's crossover, and obviously we value each other's opinions. But it can really throw a day or an evening if there's something You know, stressful going on in your brain and you want to get it out of your brain, but then you're putting it in your partner's brain. So, it's, yes, better if we ask, and it can be, like, we don't always, of course, but if you're like really out of the work zone, better to leave it alone if possible. Leave it till Monday. But we actually don't have scheduled meetings every day, and we're both in meetings a lot. Like some days it's back to back all day long. That's quite normal. So, it can be hard for us sometimes to find time in the working week to actually connect with each other. So, invariably in those situations, it does bubble over. Hopefully it's a, can I just check this thing quickly with you? Because that then allows me to crack on with this thing that I'm doing. But sometimes it's a can of worms. So.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.
GemmaHave to get a sort of a temperature test from the other person. Yes.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And I think it is interesting, isn't it? Because it's sometimes the negativity around that is to do with the fact that your perspective or your, what you will take from an issue is completely different. So if I say something about creative, let's say, you know, if I, if I just say, oh, you know, X client isn't happy with Y creative. And I'm thinking about it from a completely different perspective. That's personally and professionally much more of a spiky topic for the creative director. And then Gemma might say something about pricing or a commercial arrangement or something, and again, it will hit me, or it'll be a people thing. It'll hit me in a different way, and I'll be stressed out about it in a different way that Gemma hadn't considered. And that is sometimes where you are, if you bring something, a work thing home, it can be much more of a kind of grenade than you want it to be. Like, you never meant it like that. And then I think the other thing is that you sometimes just wanna offload something off your chest as a natural human thing to do.
Leanne ElliottRight.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And I think you could probably, in all honesty, just go and do that into a cushion or a wall or whatever, just talk to no one. But sometimes because your life is busy and you don't get that time, so I will often leave work in a rush, go to pick up the kids, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I've still got this coiled spring in my brain that I need to release.
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Gemma will come home and I'll release it with actually no need for any kind of response. emotion or reaction. Just, you are just the first human there. But it's not the same as having a partner who works somewhere else because they don't have any emotional connection or investment in what you're talking about. Whereas they know all the people, they feel all the stuff, and then not only are they worried about you and how you feel, but they're worried about the whole thing. So it's really hard not to— It's really hard to be disciplined enough to not do that because when you have got a pent-up thing that you want to talk about, you might not even need any help with it. You just need to say it because that's the way that you process stuff. You've got to be really careful, basically. And that's the difference, I think. The difference between working together and not working together is you are invested.
GemmaYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)So, whichever, whatever it is, even if you think it doesn't bother you, it can trigger you to be in that mode of like, I need to fix it or sort it out or be stressed about it, or it will trigger something completely different, marketing or whatever it is that you're thinking about at the time. That's the tricky bit.
Al ElliottYeah. And let's just ask for a second then, because this happens to my wife and I all the time. So, Gemma, Xavier comes in and says something which he's, in his mind, he's just talking to his partner. And saying some words to get him out of his head so he can just get on with the rest of his evening. But of course, this really affects you. So how, how would you react in that situation? And is it the same way as you'd recommend other couples to perhaps react?
GemmaDepends what he said, I suppose. Uh, often we do really check each other and say, can we not talk about this now? Um, That's probably the healthiest bit.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Most effective.
GemmaAnd try not to be offended when someone calls out, I don't really wanna talk about work. Is that okay? And I think that's a perfectly valid, reasonable response to, it's 10 o'clock at night, or we're in bed, or like, I've just got in the door and blah, blah, blah. How would I deal with it? So that would be one approach. Another approach would be just getting stuck into the conversation and then we end up spiraling and then we're like, oh, we've been talking about work for like half an hour now. Can we stop?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I think that's a really good way of describing it though, because you spiral and that's the tricky bit is what will happen quite often is One of us will mention something and it'll be quite a low-level, unimportant, fun, maybe even fun thing to talk about. But it's like you're either driving the car or you're not driving the car. And it's like right now, here, while I'm sitting in my office, I'm driving the car. You can come and throw any business problem at me, any business opportunity at me, I'm happy to do it. But if you throw a little one at me when I'm in my personal life, on holiday, on the weekend, and bed, cooking dinner, then suddenly my whole mindset has changed and I will then spiral. I could potentially spiral up into the bigger problems, the more stressful stuff. And I find it, as you may be able to tell from this conversation, I find it hard not to do that. My mind works in that compounding way. And therefore, and then you get sort of 10 minutes in and you think, and maybe Gemma might say then, hey, like, I don't wanna talk about work. And I'll be like, hang on a sec. Literally the most childish thing ever to say. You started it. And, and that is true, but it wasn't with the intention that we would have a big, like, chat about it, about all sorts of stuff. Um, and I think it's about that mental state, isn't it? Um, the other thing is like, uh, what is considering what mental state your partner is in, right? So if I'm cooking dinner, I find that really relaxing. I really like it, whatever. I don't really want someone to come in And start playing the drums or talking about work. You know, that stress, they're stressful things. And, or if we're driving, like, you know, when I'm driving, it's a different mental state, which is defensive and potentially quite high alert. And so therefore, probably not the best time, very convenient time to have a long conversation on a 4-hour drive to Leeds or whatever. But not the best time because you're not going to get the best out of me because I am in a heightened, stressful mental state. And then you start thinking, oh wow, how does that work at work? What's it like with my senior directors or my head of departments or whatever when they're really stressed and I go in and say, hey, what do you think about that thing? What kind of response and reaction are we getting? It's exactly the same. It's just one of them is more appropriate than the other.
Al ElliottI have to ask the question, which I hope will be a simple answer, but I have to ask the question, what happens when you disagree?
GemmaI don't think we disagree loads about important things. We bring different perspectives, but normally the outcome, or maybe not the outcome, but the direction is quite aligned. Can you think of any occasions where we've massively disagreed?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)My wife's quite stubborn, I would say.
GemmaYeah, I am stubborn.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It's a weird one, isn't it? Because I think inherently we want the other one to be happy, which is a good, a good trait probably in a relationship. We're both quite stubborn, but we, uh, you know, I would say probably I'm a bit more of an alpha personality than, than Gemma. However, when Gemma wants something to happen, she will just keep plugging away at it for a lot longer.
GemmaAnd you scream at each other.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)So whereas So disagreement is kind of irrelevant in the end because we both probably just keep plugging away at it until the other one agrees. But it's not like, yeah, that's probably not the greatest thing to say, but I think it is probably true. I think what is important as a married couple, but ultimately as a leadership team, of a business is that you disagree. If you disagree in the room, you commit outside the room. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, and I think we do operate like that. So even if we have differing opinions, one of us takes the— says, okay, if that's what you want to do, I'll do it. Then we go out and we present a united force. Otherwise we create chaos. And that's when one of you's sure and the other one might not be sure, for example. Whereas if one of you's sure and the other one is sure that it's the other thing, I don't think we would ever proceed on anything like that. There would be a veto. But if one of you's sure, like, oh, I want to take this new building, I think it's going to be okay, and the other one's like, it's like, okay, let's crack on and I'll support you.
GemmaBecause we look after such different facets of the business, we take the lead in our areas of expertise a bit more. So I'm not going to challenge Xav on financial decisions unless they seem insane, which I don't know if I'd even be able to give him a brilliant steer on. And he's not going to challenge me on creative decisions. So there's not loads of call for us to be agreeing and aligning on every single thing. It's like we each know what each of us looks for.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Mm-hmm.
GemmaAnd the vision piece, we are quite aligned on where we want to be. And that's the most interesting bit where we're in a dialogue about, is that really it or not? And do we need to think more about this? But that's, yeah, that's quite unified, I'd say.
Al ElliottYou've obviously done an incredible job in what, 16 years of being in business? What is the future? Are you going to become a huge conglomerate?
GemmaSo, the future of Studio XAG, we want to be known as the world's most creative, impactful, and sustainable brand experience agency. This is the vision and the mission of the business. This is what I was standing in front of the whole team, getting them to recite back to me yesterday, quizzing them on it as I do at our monthly team meetings. Creativity speaks for itself. We want to be making the most creative work in the world and be known for it. I would say we are doing really, really well in that, and we are known and sought out for our creativity. Sustainability, we have developed so many initiatives. We've had a green team since 2018, or we kicked off our sustainable initiative then, and we've made tons of progress. Part of that was Becoming a B Corp. We have invested in carbon footprint calculating tools. We work with our clients on sustainable strategies in terms of how we can deliver that world-class creativity more responsibly. And impact is where I want us to get to, how we can actually prove our impact in the world, because we can all see that looks great, but when we have the sales figures, the footfall, the headlines, the award wins, and we have All of the success metrics for our projects, we can really stand behind that and have objective proof that our work is successful rather than just, hey, we think it looks great. Our clients are really happy. So, we want to be known for all 3, sustainability, impact, and creativity. That is the mission that we are on. In terms of becoming a huge conglomerate, no thank you. We don't want to get massively bigger, but we want to be operating in a beautifully collaborative way. We are working a lot on our client experience and how we can sprinkle magic throughout that and make the process of working with us as creative and impactful as the end result. We want to be working with absolute dream clients across sectors. We're expanding our services. So, we are moving into events. We've designed and built a few events, but we really want to strengthen that capability and really focus on the experience that people have within the spaces that we build and bring that to life through so many interactive touchpoints and making memorable and meaningful moments on that journey.
Al ElliottXavier, can I ask you, that's— Gemma just said we're not going to be a conglomerate. It sounds to me like you're not going to grow massively. You're not going to double, triple your size. Is that going to be enough for you?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Some of the reason why we've grown and why I've approached growth is because, uh, you know, it's obviously my, my part of the, the business and my part of our co-founder relationship is that I'm on the business side. So for me, that is important. But it isn't exponential. The desire is not exponential. I knew, and I have known for a really, really long period of time that we needed this level of growth in order to do the types of projects that Gemma and I and all of the brilliant people that we employ will be truly blown away by, and to have that world-class scale and impact. And we're there now. Will we grow a bit more? Probably. Will we, do I want to double, triple, quadruple in size? No. And I think potentially there's a negative impact of that double, tripling, quadrupling in size where we lose what we have right now, which is this still at this scale, 60 people. We have this red thread, hyper-focused attention to detail that is so important to the brands that we work with.
GemmaYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And every single person that we employ has the same eye. And that is, I think it would be pretty difficult to maintain that if we grew to 600 people, to be honest, Al. And we see it, we collaborate with big agencies and they bring us in a lot of the time, or we might collaborate with them in order to bring that super-focused specialism, attention to detail.
GemmaYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yes, it will be enough for me. And honestly, I will be happy if we continue to push the boundaries in the work that we do, and my team across the board can continue to be super proud and excited by the briefs that are coming in, the things that we're delivering, and they feel stretched. And I do take now even the jobs that I would find small that we do, or like on the easier end of the scale, we just have someone in the team do that where it's a stretch for them because that's where we get the creative spark and energy in there. So, and I take just as much pleasure out of that as I do out of the stuff that is really stretching the whole business.
Al ElliottSo let me just ask you one last question, and I imagine that you You overheard your employees talking about working at Studio Xav. What would be the biggest compliment you could overhear, do you think, about working there?
GemmaSo, one of our company objectives is to be the best place you've ever worked. And most times that people resign, they come to us and they say, this is and will always be the best place I've ever worked. And that is, God, I'm gonna actually cry. That is so meaningful to me because, well, it just speaks volumes, doesn't it?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I don't have another thing because that's the perfect thing to say. And I guess for all those other founders out there listening on the airwaves, I know a lot of founders and I'm part of a founders group that One of our, my wonderful friends started in the pandemic and it is really, really hard running a business. And a lot of what is hard about it is having lots of people that have a high expectation of you that want a lot of stuff, progression, money, benefits, perks, all that stuff. But it's very easy for some little bits to be quite noisy in your head and in your brain. But ultimately, What Gemma has just said is the ultimate measure. Like, when people leave, and we want you to stay if you're happy and having an amazing time and being creatively stretched and all that, but we also know and don't mind and want you to fly off with a portfolio that is gonna get you any job in the world. Absolutely. When they say that, which they commonly do, and sober as well, I might say, as well as drunk. I just think, okay, it ain't so bad. And it all comes back to what we talked about right at the beginning, which is like, just what does it feel like, the decision that you're gonna make? What does it feel like in your stomach? It doesn't always feel good. You might even do something when it doesn't, but you know it's inherently not good. It's probably the wrong one. So we do, we have always treated it like that. And that's how I coach my team and whatever is like, you know. You've got to be behind it. And, and yeah, so Gemma's nailed that. That's what you want them to say. It's the best place I've ever worked.
Al ElliottThat was Gemma and Xav from Studio XAG. I honestly could have talked to them for about another 3 hours.
Leanne ElliottI'm jealous that I didn't get to speak to them, to be honest. What brings me so much joy is it really sounds that they haven't had to or wanted to sacrifice creativity for profitability, or for culture, or for growth. They've just held on to what really matters to them in a really beautifully authentic way.
Al ElliottWell, talking about authentic, Gemma nearly cried when she was talking about what people would say about, about the agency. What, what, what is it? What was it? This is, this is and will always be the best place I've ever worked is what she wants people to say. And they do say that. And that's not corporate mission statement bullshit. That's real.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it really is. 3 quick takeaways from me, because I really don't think there needs to be much more said.
Al ElliottFirst of all, trust your gut. That feeling in your stomach when you're making a decision. Xav is right. It's usually spot on. It's definitely, definitely true for Leanne and I.
Leanne ElliottDefine what enough looks like. You know, they need 60 people to do world-class work. They don't want 600 because they'd lose what makes them special. That's rare clarity.
Al ElliottAnd third, great work is culture. Oh, I— Leanne was applauding, standing on her chair and applauding at that. You can't party your way to a great workplace. What creates culture is brilliant work that people are proud of.
Leanne ElliottAnd that bit about taking turns being visionary and being pragmatic depending on the situation, I think that's a really nice way to think about partnership, particularly when sometimes you can have those energy fluctuations. You know, sometimes I don't have the energy to be creative today, but I'll be the pragmatic one while you fly to the moon. Is that just me?
Al ElliottNo, that's absolutely right. So go and check out their work at www.studioxag.com. at Studio XAG, and a huge, huge thanks to the incredible Ellie Glazan from Ellie Glazan PR. She made all this happen, which we couldn't have done ourselves.
Leanne ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work. We will see you next week.