Episode 272 · 3 February 2026 · 59:14
What if work was about purpose, not survival? With Louise Hill, Founder of GoHenry, and Ruth Handcock OBE, CEO of Octopus Money
Featuring Louise Hill, Ruth Handcock OBE
What if work was about purpose, not survival? With Louise Hill, Founder of GoHenry, and Ruth Handcock OBE, CEO of Octopus Money
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Intro: Work has shifted from ambition to survival
What financial literacy actually means
panel interview#financial-literacy#money-skills#education
Why 2 people on the same salary can live completely different financial lives
panel interview#salary#financial-behavior#money-management
The role of the safety net in career risk-taking
panel interview#safety-net#career-risk#social-mobility
Social mobility: less about discrimination, more about confidence
panel interview#social-mobility#confidence#career-progression
The Cambridge study: money habits formed by age 7
panel interview#money-habits#children#research
Ruth's anecdote: new starters at Octopus Money
panel interview#workplace#financial-habits#anecdotes
Case studies from families using GoHenry
panel interview#families#case-studies#financial-education
Who books a financial coaching session? The workplace pattern
panel interview#financial-coaching#workplace#patterns
The gender split in financial confidence
panel interview#gender#confidence#finance
Why having a financial plan is the root of confidence
panel interview#financial-planning#confidence#root-cause
Short-term plans vs long-term plans
panel interview#short-term#long-term#planning
Setting money confidence in place from an early age
panel interview#early-age#money-confidence#financial-education
Why financial wellbeing is a no-brainer for employers
panel interview#financial-wellbeing#employers#benefits
Louise's story: the webinars leaders didn't want to run
panel interview#webinars#leadership#resistance
First practical step for leaders: normalise it
panel interview#leaders#normalize#financial-conversations
Al's story: bankrupt in 2008
panel interview#bankruptcy#personal-story#financial-hardship
What would change if everyone felt financially confident?
panel interview#financial-confidence#impact#society
Work gives people a huge amount of purpose
panel interview#purpose#work#fulfillment
Shout-out to Perks
panel interview#perks#workplace-benefits#recognition
Are there other countries doing financial education well?
panel interview#financial-education#countries#comparison
Where to find Louise and Ruth
Show notes
What If Work Was About Purpose, Not Survival? — with Louise Hill & Ruth Handcock OBE
Guests: Louise Hill — Co-founder of GoHenry, a financial education platform helping children and young people build money confidence; Ruth Handcock OBE — CEO of Octopus Money, a financial wellbeing and coaching service supporting adults and employees.
Over the last few years, work has quietly shifted from ambition to survival.
Rising living costs, economic uncertainty, layoffs and AI have changed how people make career decisions. Instead of taking risks or pursuing meaningful work, many are staying put — not because they want to, but because it feels safer to stay. The media has called this the Big Stay or job-hugging.
Louise and Ruth join Al and Leanne for a LinkedIn Live conversation on money confidence, risk and the future of careers. Louise works at the earliest stage, where money beliefs, habits and confidence are formed in childhood and adolescence. Ruth works at the adult decision-making stage, where financial confidence shapes career risk-taking, leadership progression, entrepreneurship and long-term wellbeing. Together, they offer an end-to-end view of how money confidence shapes working lives.
Top 3 Takeaways
Money confidence matters more than income. Two people can earn the same salary but live completely different financial lives — and make completely different career choices — depending on their money habits and beliefs. Financial literacy isn't about budgeting or products; it's about freedom, confidence and optionality.
The safety net is the invisible driver of career risk. People from less affluent backgrounds are less likely to take career risks, even when highly capable — not because of capability, but because they don't have the safety net to catch them if it goes wrong. This quietly shapes who negotiates, who speaks up, who progresses into leadership and who starts businesses.
Leaders normalise financial wellbeing by talking about their own money. The most powerful first step isn't a policy or a programme — it's a leader willing to say "I got this wrong" or "I'm still figuring this out." When leaders model financial vulnerability, employees feel safe to ask for help before problems become crises.
Why This Matters for Leaders and Organisations
For leaders concerned about engagement, retention, wellbeing, DEI and social mobility, this episode highlights a hidden but powerful driver of workplace behaviour. Financial insecurity doesn't just affect people's bank balances — it affects who feels able to negotiate, speak up or take risks; who progresses into leadership roles; who starts businesses or new ventures; and who opts out, plays safe or stays stuck.
🎧 Who This Episode Is For
- Leaders and managers worried about engagement, retention and risk-aversion
- HR and People teams focused on wellbeing, DEI and social mobility
- Parents thinking about the long-term impact of money conversations at home
- Employees feeling cautious, stuck or unable to take career risks
- Founders and policymakers interested in innovation and economic participation
More From Our Guests
Louise Hill
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/louise-hill-5197614
- GoHenry: gohenry.com
Ruth Handcock OBE
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/ruth-handcock-obe-71b3656
- Octopus Money: octopusmoney.com
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
C — REVIEWNice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello everybody. Welcome, welcome. Over the last few years, work has shifted in some pretty fundamental ways. During COVID a lot of people paused and reflected, myself included. We questioned what work was for, what mattered, and whether the way we're living and actually working makes sense. That reflection fuelled what we came to call the Great Resignation. But since then, the context has changed. The cost of living crisis, high-profile layoffs, advances in AI have made the job market feel far more uncertain. Instead of people leaving in search of something better, we're now seeing the opposite— people staying put, not because they love their jobs, but because it feels safer to stay. The media has called it the big stay or job hugging, and what that really means is that a lot of career decisions today feel less about ambition and growth and more about risk management and survival. When people don't feel financially confident, That shapes everything. It affects whether they take risks, whether they speak up, whether they go for roles that stretch them, or whether they quietly sit tight and hope things don't get worse. And that has bigger consequences. It shapes who ends up leading, who feels able to innovate, and who actually gets to choose work they care about rather than work they simply can't afford to leave. So today we're asking a simple but slightly uncomfortable question. What would change if more people felt financially confident enough to choose work for purpose, not survival?
Al ElliottAnd to explore that, we're joined by 2 of the most influential and disruptive leaders in the UK finance industry. First of all, Louise Hill, founder of GoHenry. GoHenry is that financial education platform and is a debit card for kids and teens designed to help them learn how to earn, save, spend, give, and invest from an early age. The idea is to build money confidence decision-making skills long before career decisions ever enter the frame. This should help the next generation avoid the kinds of fear-based choices that so many of us adults actually face.
Leanne ElliottAnd joining us too is Ruth Handcock, CEO of Octopus Money, a financial wellbeing and coaching service that combines personalised advice with technology to support adults and employees across the UK. Octopus Money is on a mission to make investing and money advice accessible to all. believing that everyone deserves to feel confident about their future. This is Truth, Lies and Work Live, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner, and together we're going to explore how money confidence is shaped and what that means for career choices, leadership, and organisational culture. Welcome, welcome, welcome. We are going to give our guests a moment to talk in a second. I'm so sorry, that seemed like a lot, a much shorter intro when we were, when we were practicing it before. But so welcome, welcome. Just quickly, we will do Q&A towards the end, but let's kick things off. Leanne, I believe you've got some questions.
Leanne ElliottI do. Louise, Ruth, welcome. So pleased to have you.
D — REVIEWThank you for having us.
C — REVIEWThanks. Can't wait for the chat.
Leanne ElliottI want to dive straight in, and I want to also make sure we don't assume we're using any terms that people maybe aren't familiar with. So, Louise, can I start with you? What do we really mean by financial literacy and what is commonly misunderstood about it?
D — REVIEWWell, financial literacy, in real simple speak, is money skills. It's the knowledge, the understanding, and the confidence that someone needs to make informed and effective decisions with the financial resources that are available to them. And it really is a key determinant of lifelong financial outcomes and increasingly recognized as a core life skill to the point where after years of campaigning by GoHenry, the government is now making financial education compulsory as part of the citizenship lessons in primary schools in England starting in September 2028. But in an increasingly digital world, More financial options than ever are there for everyone to navigate, whether that's shopping online, accessing music, games, entertainment through subscriptions, managing our income, managing investments. And so financial literacy is crucial in giving individuals the ability to make informed financial decisions. And there's strong evidence to show that leads to improvements in lifetime wellbeing. You asked me about misperceptions. I think the most common misperception is that you need to be good at maths or you need to be wealthy to have a good level of financial literacy. And neither of those 2 things are true.
C — REVIEWIt's not about complex equations.
D — REVIEWIt's about creating strong money habits and then having the confidence to make informed decisions.
Leanne ElliottYou mentioned there that financial literacy can have a direct impact on our money outcomes, on our life outcomes. How does that affect our career? So, what does financial security mean in terms of shaping our career decisions, our promotions, even our leadership ambition?
D — REVIEWWell, 2 people can earn the same salary, but live completely different financial lives if they have different levels of financial literacy, different levels of confidence with money. So the difference is not usually income, it's that money and mindset. And how does that shape careers? It makes a massive difference. Somebody who does not receive financial education as a child, and I should probably say before I sort of launch into this, we worked with Development Economics to produce a piece of research on how financial education impacts adulthood. And somebody who didn't receive financial education as a child is more likely to be unemployed or earning significantly less today than those who did. And 40% of those who identified themselves as not having received any financial education said they have no savings at all. So to reply directly to your question, if you've got no savings at all, and you're earning less, you're in a far less financially secure position, and you're far less likely to take a risk, to change your job, to go for a new position, to start a business. In contrast, kids who do receive a financial education are 46% more likely to start a business. And that by itself would add 123,000 new jobs to the UK economy. Resulting in an unbelievable £7 billion a year extra into the UK economy. So it's a sea change in people's life outcomes that directly affects their likelihood of changing jobs, starting a business, or even going for a promotion if they think it's risky.
Leanne ElliottSo leading on from that, Ruth, I want to ask you why Are people from less affluent backgrounds less likely to take career risks, even when they're highly capable? Is it down to financial confidence? What's happening here?
C — REVIEWI think the bit that we don't speak enough about is the role of the safety net, actually. So, if you put yourself in the position, and I certainly remember this in my 20s, of you are getting your paycheck, you pay your student loan, and you look at what's left, and it's just about enough to cover your rent. And you think, well, if I go for a new job and it doesn't work out, how do I pay my rent? And very few people actually, particularly at that point in their career, have thought, well, I must have some money in a safety net just in case. They probably can't afford to save 3 months' salary, which is typically what many people think of as a safety net that allows you that little bit of freedom. So, what you find is that those who have, frankly, parents who can provide that safety net will probably take more career risks. than those who don't, because it's quite unusual that people post, particularly if they've done university education, have that safety net themselves. So sure enough, that actually rolls through to the career choices people make, which is you are just more likely to take a risk if you have a financial safety net, either from your parents or from your own savings. So you get this increasing correlation between socioeconomic background and progression through the workplace. And there's lots of research from Wonderful organizations that look at social mobility in focus that says, if you come from a less wealthy background, you progress up to 30% more slowly in the workplace, even if you even out for things like educational outcomes. And for me, it's about confidence. And I hear this from our customers time and time again, is people just can't take a risk if they don't feel as if they could pay the rent. Perfectly logically, but I think it really impacts the decisions people make in their careers.
Leanne ElliottSo, in terms of this social mobility, is it then, from what you've said, it's less about discrimination and more from the fear of the individual to take those career risks? So, we are seeing a disproportionate number of people from higher socioeconomic backgrounds in senior leadership roles?
C — REVIEWI think there is a huge, huge complex basket of factors actually that play a role in career progression and its relationship with social mobility. So just as you hear people, perhaps the first thing they talk about is often not the financial safety net, but it's often quite a big part to play. There's all sorts of other things, which is comfort in certain situations in the workplace, confidence in themselves, having role models who've progressed in the workplace, having ever met someone who's done a senior leadership role. So all of that, I think, becomes a bit of a jumble of factors actually that do impact how quickly people from different social backgrounds progress in the workplace. But I think the financial confidence one is the bit we talk about least, is I think we jump to how confident do you feel in this situation and do you put your hand up in a meeting? And I hear endless people talk about that. I think people don't like talking about money and they don't like saying, the reason I didn't go for the promotion is because I can't pay my rent if it goes wrong, because some people feel shameful saying that.
Al ElliottYeah.
C — REVIEWThey absolutely shouldn't, but they do. So it doesn't get talked about enough. And because it doesn't get talked about enough, we're not going out there as employers and saying, actually, having a month or 2 of salary in a savings account is a really good thing for your career. I've never really heard a leader say that, and I'd argue they should. So I'd love to raise that in the conversation. It's definitely not the only factor, but I think it's the one we've often overlooked.
Al ElliottCan I jump in and ask a question there, Ruth? There's something you've both been saying there, like early money attitudes. And I remember when I was growing up, it was rude to talk about money at the table. It was very like, you know, you know exactly what I'm talking about there. These are all, these are shaping some of what people, some adults are struggling with money at the moment. So is there any kind of research around that? What are your thoughts? But this is a question for both of you.
D — REVIEWThere is lots of research around it. There is a very well-cited Cambridge University study that showed that financial habits are formed, not start to be formed, are formed by the age of 7. And when you think about that, children that age are soaking up everything around them, learning at a huge pace. If they are in a household that doesn't talk about money, it's all very hidden. That is the attitude and the habit that they grow up with. If they're in a household where money is something that's feared and worried about in the same way, that is something they then carry with them into adulthood. And that's why we campaign so hard for this, for financial education in schools to start in primary school. It really needs to start young with open conversations, confident conversations about money.
C — REVIEWI could give you some anecdotal stories to add to that. When everyone starts working at Octopus Money, I often ask them, for the reason that they want to work with us. And people have lots and lots of very personal reasons. Mine, for what it's worth, is always that when I was a kid, I grew up in a single-parent family. My mum was always terrified that the washing machine was going to break and that she wouldn't have the money to fix it. And so, I'm a saver because from a very early age, I was really terrified of the washing machine breaking, which is quite an extraordinary thing to care about as a sort of 6-year-old. But loads and loads of people I work with, have similar stories. Others I've heard is coming from the perspective you were talking about, Al, about kind of almost the shame of money. It's people saying, well, my dad got a better job when I was 15 and he bought a new Volvo, but he parked it around the corner because he didn't want the neighbors to think he was getting above himself. And so all of these emotions that sit around money are complex, and depending on your background, they manifest in really different ways. I think the thing we've found at Octopus Money is you sort of have 2 avenues you can go down. One is let's try and change culture such that there is less shame and fear associated with money. And I think to do that, you need to start with education, and then you need to think about embedding those skills when someone gets into a workplace. So that's one angle. The other is meeting people where they are and giving people a safe space to talk about it if they feel if they don't feel they have the confidence to talk about it openly. And I think at least for now, we need a bit of both actually. We need to take some of the shame and fear away, but we also need to make sure people have safe spaces. And whether that's helping people figure out how they can do their own research to helping people figure out who they can talk to, because we've got to recognize that the place people are starting is fear and shame and a lack of confidence. And it's really hard to put your hand up in a seminar and say, I don't know what a pension is, that everyone's thinking it, but no one So how do you give people the space to ask those questions?
Al ElliottI just want to ask a real quick question here, Ruth. You said that when you're growing up, 6 years old, you were really worried about the washing machine breaking, so that made you into a saver. So are the patterns— so the person who's really bad with money, who spends all their paycheck by day 15 of the month, or wins a bit of money and puts it on the horses or buys a car, is there a trend or something? This is for both of you. Is there a trend or something Something that's happened in their childhood that might lead to that?
C — REVIEWI suspect I'll have some anecdotes and Louise will tell you the actual answer. I suspect it's way more complex than that, and I could have turned into a spender just as easily as I could a saver. But what's certainly true of most people I speak to is that they will point to situations in their childhood that change their attitude to money. I think it's far less predictable because we as humans have very complex behavior as to whether a particular behavior observed by a person will will lead to a particular money habit. But I think there's certainly loads of anecdotal evidence that the environment you grow up in impacts how you feel about money, because money is not about maths, it's about emotion. And I think as soon as you start to recognize that money is about emotion, you start to at least begin to scratch the surface of understanding why people make the decisions they do. I don't know, Louise, whether you have Any other research that you've come across?
D — REVIEWRather than research, Ruth, I think so many case studies, sort of anecdotal case studies from families that we talk to where actually the parents watching their children learn and change behavior has then triggered the parents to change behavior as well. So typically that's around saving, but When a parent watches their child resolutely saving every week because there's something they really, really want to save up for. We have many, many parents will write in and say, I've never saved in my life before, but do you know what? I've watched him or her do this and I've started saving now. So yeah, I mean, Ruth's right. It is massively complex. I guess it boils down, both of our businesses try and talk to people in a way that is clear, understandable, no financial jargon when it's not necessary, and make a safe space where people can have those conversations. Certainly one of the things we try and do is to trigger conversations in the home. Now that's something we'd love to see and want to make happen with the services we offer.
Leanne ElliottLouise, I want to ask you, you said that, that these beliefs form by 7 years old, which is extraordinary. I'm wondering how those early beliefs about what you said about, about being good at, um, at numeracy, at maths— I think Ruth mentioned that— how does that follow through? What's coming to my mind is, are we seeing a separation in terms of financial literacy in children between girls and boys? Are we seeing a gender difference there?
D — REVIEWNo, there isn't. And that's something we've looked at very carefully. No, there really isn't. Where they spend their money, there's definitely patterns, but in terms of who saves more or less, it's very, very close. And we've been operating in the UK now for 14 years, so we've watched that very carefully and it hasn't shifted or changed in one direction or the other significantly over that period of time.
C — REVIEWAnd we actually see the same when people get to the workplace. So when I look at who in the workplace books a session to have a conversation about their money, it's about 50/50 gender split. Is again, people come with all sorts of assumptions about, oh, it's women who don't know where to go, so they probably book more sessions in the workplace. It's absolutely not true. The need and the desire to get help, in our experience, exists quite evenly. By age, by gender. It's a universal challenge. We all deal with money every day.
Al ElliottRuth, can I just quickly jump in and ask you there? You said that the gender split is 50/50, but in both of your experiences, is the kind of like the attitude, as in like the shame of not having money, is that generally a 50/50 split in your experience?
C — REVIEWI think it is hugely individual. And I think if you were to, you know, I studied science, if I were to go back and try and draw correlations between various aspects of people's personality and their money habits, I'm sure you would find trends. But when you first say to people, what are your goals in life and how do you think about your money in relation to them? What comes forth is a jumble of life goals and experiences and opinions they formed at the age of 7 and confidence with maths and confidence with their careers. And all that you really learn listening to hundreds and hundreds of customer calls is that money is really emotional and complicated for people. It is not as simple as put £10 a month away and you're going to be fine. It is way, way, way more complex than that. And it's about emotion and behaviors and the way you feel about yourself. If I give a case study, I listened to a call the other day of someone who logged on and said, and the coach said, well, why did you book this call? And she said, well, I think I'm a really bad parent because I'm terrible with money. And over the course of 45 minutes of talking through money, her final statement was, I feel as if I can look my children in the eye now because I feel as if I've got a plan. And no one expects you to have a conversation with money and come out feeling like a better parent, but that's what you experience. So I'm sure there are some some trends, but it is drawn from the richness of people's lives, which means that those trends aren't half as apparent as you might imagine they are.
Al ElliottSorry, Louise, any thoughts, anything to add to that?
D — REVIEWNo, I don't think I can add to that. I think Ruth's absolutely right. I mean, we talk often to the kids and teenagers at GoHenry. They have their dreams and goals just like adults do as well. I think one of the trends we've seen developing over the last few years has been how many of them have set up what we call side hustles. So just how many of the kids are actually earning money from sources other than mom and dad. So not just pocket money, but obviously there are a few doing the traditional part-time job when they're old enough. But so many kids trading on internet marketplaces like Depop and Etsy, people actually making things and selling them on Etsy, social media and content creators. We even had a couple of cryptocurrency traders, but it was okay. It was with their parents' permission. Or their parents really doing it for them, but a huge number of kids actually running their own businesses. The one that's coming through at the moment seems incredibly popular is buying a 3D printer and then making things and selling them. So it's interesting to see the trends that come through there, but I think that has some interesting repercussions for the world of work as these kids grow up into adulthood and go out into the workplace. Because if people have a side hustle, is that giving them that financial buffer to be able to choose a career that they, with purpose, a career that they really want to do? Or if they find themselves in a career where they're not seeing progression and they realize they don't love it, does that give them the buffer to step away and choose something else or even move to making that business their full-time business.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work, and we talk talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just status-seeking monkeys.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottAnd I think we're seeing this with Gen Z have been described as the most entrepreneurial generation in history. I'm sure that Gen Alpha, by the sounds of it, Louise, are already on with that too.
D — REVIEWEven more so. Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd, and we're also seeing those trends in terms of what Gen Z are asking for, in terms of what they want from work. And it all seems to feed back to what you were saying there. I mean, Ruth, from your perspective, again, if you've got any anecdotes from, from clients at Octopus Money, what changes when people feel financially confident and they feel confident enough to choose work that they really care about?
C — REVIEWYeah. So, what we find when people have a financial plan, so I'm a bit obsessed with, with a plan being the root of confidence. People find it very hard to get to a plan on their own, but actually it doesn't take much to help someone get to a plan. And once they have a plan, that sort of unlocks this feeling of control, and I now know what I'm doing and I'm not scared anymore. Some of the things you find is people are way less likely to leave their jobs purely for salary. So lots of people switch jobs, not because they're unhappy, but because they think it's the only way they can get a pay rise. And people, you actually see less salary hunting when people feel financially resilient, which may mean they figured out that actually the amount of money they're earning, they were happy where they were. They were just thinking they should leave because it's the only way to get a pay rise. And if they can figure out how the numbers add up, then they're comfortable staying as they are. Anecdotally, you see people more likely to go for promotions in the place that they're already working because they feel like they've got their stuff in order. It's the confidence that comes out of it. And then the real unlock, and we've all heard an awful lot about the correlation between financial stress and mental health, you just get this sense of less stress. So often one of the questions we ask when we first launch in a workplace is how stressed do you feel about money and how many days do you think you couldn't concentrate on work because you were so worried about money? And that latter stat can be north of 90% in many, many workplaces. So if you are leading teams and you ask people that question, probably 90% of your team will say at some point they were so worried about money, they couldn't concentrate on work. Now, if a plan can change that, what an incredible What an incredible thing to be able to offer a population so that they can live the life they want to live rather than feel that lack of control. So to me, I do think it is the basis for many bits of your career. We haven't even started talking about parenting and caring and all of those things again, where it has a huge impact on people's confidence. But I do think the plan is the root of that.
Al ElliottBut this is a question both for you, Louise and Ruth. You just said plan is the root of that. And I think a lot of people were thinking, I have a plan as in a piece of paper showing me what my outgoings are. And I have a big number that I wrote on the 1st of January going, this is what I want to earn this year. That doesn't sound like the kind of plan for both of you, but what does a good plan look like?
C — REVIEWSo I think it's, I think there are 2 aspects, which is you probably have a short-term plan and a long-term plan. So most people think of a short-term plan as a budget. So, can I make sure that I can get through the month without spending more than I earn? And that's normally where people start because we as humans find it very hard to think about the long term until the short term is in order. So, just figuring out that how much am I spending, how much am I earning conundrum is step 1. Step 2, which is what most people don't get to, is what do I want to achieve in the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years of my life, and am I on track to get there? So, what we do at Octopus Money is not rocket science, is we draw a line over the next 20 years saying, if you carry on doing what you're doing, this is what the next 20 years of your life look like. This is the likelihood you can hit your goals. This is what will happen if you take any time off. This is how much money you might have when you retire. This is the chances you can afford to go on that holiday that you really want to go on. And actually, if you make some different decisions, and that might be things that people find a bit scary to decide on their own, should I put a bit more in my pension? Should I start something called an ISA? I don't really know what an ISA is. Should I save a bit more? Should I save a bit less? Those are the kind of decisions that over the long term can make an enormous difference when you look 5, 10, 15 years out. That's the bit most people don't get to. That's the bit that influences whether you, in the long term, can live the life you want to live. And it has to start from the life you want to live. It's not just adding up numbers. It's, what do I want to get to? And what decisions could I make with my money that would help me get there? When you work through that plan with someone, they look back and they're like, oh, it's kind of simple now you lay it out like that. Really, you're just optimizing for how much you save. And as we all know, if you save or invest, that money compounds over time. So it just gets you a bit closer to your goal. But it's really, really hard to get there on your own because people feel nervous that they don't understand what they're doing. They feel nervous about whether they've used the right data. They don't really understand how their pension works. But over the course of a half-hour, 45-minute conversation, someone can walk away saying, oh, so if I just save an extra 10 quid into my pension, that's worth this much when I retire. Why didn't anyone tell me? That's how I think about a plan. Not rocket science, but quite hard to do with a blank sheet of paper on your own when you're not feeling hugely money confident.
Al ElliottAnd I'm guessing, Louise, that's where you come in by giving them more than just a blank piece of paper.
D — REVIEWWell, yeah, we're trying to set some of that money confidence in place from a very early age. But actually, I was thinking as Ruth was speaking, when I started the company back in, well, we launched in the UK back in 2012, we thought long and hard about what benefits we could give the team, the people who worked at GoHenry, and we, at that point in time, we couldn't afford very much. But very quickly, it became very important to us because we are trying to teach money confidence. It would be a bit nuts if we were not trying to provide that to our teams as well. And talking to team members, we very quickly understood that most people didn't feel confident with money themselves, or a lot of them didn't feel confident with money themselves. We probably went about it in a different way to the way Octopus Money does, but we put in place access to IFAs, so independent financial advisors. And actually what we found when we first did that, and I think it speaks to the confidence point that Ruth was talking about, when we did that, so many of the team were actually fearful and embarrassed of booking that meeting with the independent financial advisor. And so what we found we had to do was put some webinars in place where people, where there was a topic per webinar, people could send in questions, anonymized questions ahead of time, kind of hear the discussions about those topics. And after people had gone through a series of those, then they booked the call with the IFA. and put together their planning for their family and their lives. But it all comes back to that confidence point and whether you are confident with money or not.
Al ElliottI love that answer. I love that answer. Just quickly, we've got a couple of people who've commented. Dean Nicholls could not have a more apt surname, could he? Nicholls. Dean Nicholls said financial education comes from the family background and can make people worry very quickly, which again, I think both of you've been saying. I think I might have a question here from Becca Stimpson. It says, Ruth, earlier you said money is really emotional and complicated for people, which I couldn't agree more with. I work for Mental Health UK, which is one of our core focuses is money. So that statement in the whole conversation really resonates. Oh, it wasn't a question. It was just, it was a lovely bit of comment, a lovely bit of feedback. So thank you for that, Becca. If you've got questions, then we will take those all at the end. Put the comments on in the LinkedIn Live. Okay, Lee, I think you're going to want to talk about Employers.
Leanne ElliottYeah, Becca, thank you for that perfect segue. It's like you're looking at my running order. Yeah, financial wellbeing. We talk about it in psychology, organisational life. Wellbeing is something that we all talk about, but the pillars we seem to focus on, I think, are around psychological, social, physical wellbeing. As you've both said, Louise and Ruth, financial wellbeing isn't focused on quite as much, or perhaps not in a way from your example, Louise, that, that kind of moves the needle with, um, employees. In terms of financial wellbeing, all this conversation we've had, you know, extends more than just feeling secure, doesn't it? It allows you to make choices, um, in our lives, in our careers. So Ruth, can I ask you first, in terms of financial wellbeing, why do you think it is the most neglected part of workplace wellbeing strategies, and what do you think we can do to change that?
C — REVIEWYeah, I, um, have come to the view that it is a bit of a no-brainer for employers to care about this for a couple of reasons. One is, going back to those stats I was talking about earlier, is there is a productivity benefit as an employer of caring about this because your employees are distracted and they are worrying. And if you can help them through that, there is just a positive benefit in how much those individuals feel not only able to focus on work, but actually feel part of a family. And feel like you're looking after them as whole people. And then there's that other piece, which is your employees are less likely to leave you for a pay rise if you look after them. So if that's so obvious, to me at least, why haven't people done it? I think partly there is a, you know, there are waves of responsibility that employers feel. And I think over the last 20 years, we've gone through cycles of employers feeling like they need to look after the whole person to feeling a bit more transactional.
Al ElliottYeah.
C — REVIEWAnd by industry and by, frankly, economic cycle, you'll find employers making different choices. And I think we are in a period where people want to retain talent. You talk about the Great Stay, but I think people really want to make sure that talented people want to grow with their organization, which if you're an employer, leads you to think, well, how do I make this employee feel as if I care about them? feel as if this isn't just, I pay you, you deliver job. This is somewhere where I care about you as a whole person. And money is such a gigantic part of that. I think we started with health because there was a trend to employers filling a perceived gap in people's access to health services where people don't expect access to money services. That's the really peculiar thing is people expect access banking, that's about transacting. There's no expectation amongst UK society of getting access to long-term money help, which is bonkers in my mind. I think it is sort of something that everyone should get access to, but the industry hasn't found commercial ways to provide it. So because people didn't feel that lack of access, employers didn't feel like there was a space to step into. Where now I think as employers have done it and there are such spectacular case studies of how successful that is, both from an employee and an employer perspective, you see more employers making that choice as they should, I think. The final thing I'll say is, there could be no one better than an employer to make it because they provide your salary and your pension. And I'm not going to make this a podcast about pensions, but a pension is— there has been this gigantic shift over the last 20 years of the pension being largely the responsibility of the state and your employer. So today, assuming you work for a private sector organization, your pension is your responsibility alone. Your employer may contribute it. Making sure you have enough money when you retire is your problem. And that shift has happened without us really being as explicit about it as that. So with that responsibility, we need to provide help, and the employer is best placed to provide that help. At the moment, we've shifted the responsibility. We haven't quite provided the help to go around it. So, I'd argue just sort of societally, there's an obligation on employers to provide that help around pensions.
Leanne ElliottLouise, what do you think? I'm thinking about the story you shared earlier about the webinars you had to put in to encourage people to access the support. Is it just because it's a bit awkward? Like, are managers feeling awkward as well about talking to their teams about money?
D — REVIEWYeah, I think that is part of it, and the way we did it was not Well, obviously the managers, the leaders introduced why we were doing it and why we thought it was a good idea, but it wasn't us providing the advice because frankly, I'm not qualified to provide the advice. And most managers, unless they are financial advisors, are not qualified to provide the advice in the same way that I wouldn't provide medical advice. So I think it is a case of the employer partnering with a service that provides that. But there is an element of, of course, of leading by example. I mean, most of all of the team, I would imagine, at GoHenry have heard me on various podcasts and things saying what I wish I'd known about money when I was younger, some of my financial mistakes and those sort of things, because it's a topic that we talk about as a business. But that isn't the norm. So, I think it's about just creating an open environment where people feel they can speak openly. And if somebody is really struggling seriously with money stress, they do feel that they can speak to their manager and maybe get a bit of support.
C — REVIEWI should say the one correlation I've seen over the years in where a launch to a set of employees is really successful. So, we'd get about a third of employees normally sign up for a first session when we launch in a workplace. Which is astonishing in itself because it just shows you how many people are sitting worrying. The biggest correlation with increasing that 30% is having a leader like Louise who stands up and says, this is something you should do. If you give employees permission, they will suddenly engage. So, it is hugely influential when there are leaders who say, look, I didn't know this either, but having a plan's a really good thing. Makes an enormous difference.
Leanne ElliottFor any leaders, business owners that are listening, is there perhaps a first practical step you'd suggest they start with in terms of starting to work financial wellbeing support into the organization?
C — REVIEWI think for me, it is, as a leader, it's normalizing it. So, I think to the extent you feel able to, talking about how you feel about money, talking about the mistakes you've made, talking about the fact that you don't find it easy and no one's and knowing what a pension is, is really helpful because that just breaks the ice. I think you've then got to combine education and knowledge with safe space. And there are many ways that you can deliver a safe space for people to talk about money. That may be one-to-one as we do it. It may be, I've seen some organizations who set up team dinners where you'll go and talk about how do you think about your money? And it's all peers. So actually, people feel more confident talking about it in front of their peers than they might do if their manager's in the room, or there are all sorts of ways of doing it. But I would just recognize it's personal, it's emotional, there's a huge need, and your people team, which is where the questions probably end up, feel terrified that they're going to get it wrong. So when someone comes to them in financial hardship, you as a leader need to give your people team the tools to be able to deal with that because it's a stressful time for them. They want to help, but they might not know what they can and can't say and actually what the right help to offer at that point is. So I think if you think upskilling, leading by example, and then creating a safe space, to me, those are the principles of the sort of support you want to put in place.
Al ElliottI love that. I love that. I'll be honest, I was bankrupt back in 2008. 2007 after a business didn't go well. And I learned more from that money I lost than the money I've ever made. So talking about changing things, this question, I'm gonna start with you, Louise, and I wanna go to Ruth. Louise, I'm always seeing you at Number 10 or in Downing Street or something. When you become Prime Minister and you're redesigning this whole system, what's the first thing you're gonna change to fix this? Then we'll come back to you, Ruth.
D — REVIEWOh my goodness. The first thing I would change, We've just taken a big step forward towards that. It would be making it a mandatory part of the curriculum in schools and making sure that it's— that's almost— that's the first step. There has to be the time in the curriculum. The teachers have to be trained in it. There has to be the funding in place to deliver it properly. And very important from my perspective, it can't just be theoretical. It has to be practical education as well. I've often talked about money skills being a little bit like swimming. You can learn all the theory you want, but you're never actually going to learn to do it until you jump in the water and have a go. So there has to be a practical element to it. That would be the first thing.
Al ElliottGreat.
C — REVIEWI was going to say Prime Minister Louise has already done it. She's got it in school. The only thing I would add is to me, there's the education and there's the embedding. So I would try and create a desire or obligation on employers to provide help in the workplace because that's where the pension is, because it's a place where employees will trust the service you provide in a workplace in a way that they might worry in the big wide world that they're making the wrong choice. So, I think allowing employers to harness that power and opportunity they've got and creating, trying to create an obligation for them to do that, I think would be enormously impactful.
Leanne ElliottYou've both said so many brilliant things about what that means for a business, for a workforce to feel financially confident that they might stay for meaning and not leave for A higher salary. Um, I think, yeah, lower turnover, more passion in our work, more meaning can only be good. I wonder, and this is a very hypothetical, philosophical, imagine what if the world looked like question, but Louise, if we could get it to the point where the majority of us are financially confident, what does that mean for things like innovation, for leadership, for our economy, for our society?
D — REVIEWDoes it I think it has massive impacts, yes. I think you would get more businesses founded. So, you know, I suppose having done what I did in launching GoHenry, I know the risk appetite that you have to have to leave a job and start— set up a new business. So, I think there would be many more new businesses created, which would be fantastic, both for individuals' freedom and for the economy. And I think we would have a much more focused, empowered, excited workforce, which would drive innovation and economic output.
Al ElliottYeah.
C — REVIEWYeah, I agree actually. I think it's confidence and then innovation. And we know that innovation is the driving force of You know, if I think about it in a business sense, of improved customer outcomes. So businesses do better things for customers when they are willing to break boundaries and try new things. It has always been true. And we rely on startups to do that, but we also rely on people having the confidence within bigger companies to try new things. And I just think that financial resilience is so deeply correlated with innovation and innovative mindset and activity that I think that unlocks improvement in business, it unlocks improvement in the startup economy, and it probably unlocks productivity and growth really, because if you're solving more problems for customers in more innovative ways, then UK PLC should be pretty happy too.
Al ElliottI have a bit of a— I have a question. I don't know whether you've got an opinion on it. I haven't actually seen either of you about this, but OpenAI, Sam Altman, I think we all know what OpenAI is. I think he's a big proponent of something called UBI, which is universal basic income, I think. My understanding is that he's saying, well, why don't we just give everyone enough money to survive and then we can go and do all the things we want to do, like ski, use AI to build businesses, whatever. First of all, is that what I've understood is correct? And secondly, I'd like both of your opinions on that. What happens if that— is that a good idea?
C — REVIEWWell, that is a big old question. My goodness, we are into changing the world now.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)What?
C — REVIEWI mean, my slightly flippant view, and I've heard Sam Altman talk about this, whether that's exactly what he means, I can't tell you. I guess when I look historically, there has been no period of rapid change that has produced a life of leisure. So they said it would be true of the Industrial Revolution, It wasn't. They said it would be true of dot-com. It wasn't. We as humans tend to find stuff to fill our time and we tend to want to be more productive. So do I think AI will allow us all to kick back and receive a free wage? There's nothing in history that shows me that that's the case, although goodness, I am not an AI expert and I've certainly heard people say that I'm wrong if I look at that going forward and this one's different. If you put that to one side, I think My personal view is productivity and work is quite good for the human condition. So I think we experience positive mental health by feeling as if we are contributing to society. So do I think it would be lovely if everyone had a basic standard of living? Absolutely. Do I think using that as a way to increase leisure time is good for us as humans? I'm not sure. I think many people do work too hard, and there are many people in many parts of the for whom having more financial freedom would be immensely beneficial. But do I think uncoupling income and work is necessarily good for us? I'm less sure about that actually. I think I certainly personally get a lot of satisfaction about having something to aim for and achieving it. And I'm yet to fully figure out in my own mind how How Sam Altman's view of the future combines with that view of what makes humans happy.
Al ElliottLouise, any thoughts?
D — REVIEWYeah, I was going to go back to the word that was used in the title of this session, purpose. If work would—
Al ElliottAre you still here, Louise?
C — REVIEWI'm still here.
Al ElliottLet me see. I think we might've lost Louise. One second. Let me just see if I can put her back in. One second.
C — REVIEWJust about to learn what our universal purpose was. It was hugely dramatic. Purpose. And then you'd gone.
D — REVIEWOh dear.
Al ElliottI don't think we got— we got your intro and I don't think we got to your point. Yeah.
D — REVIEWSo work gives people a huge amount of purpose. That was the point, part of the title that we were talking about today. And I would fear that if all of us were able to go off and play golf all day, we would lose a lot of the energy and purpose and pleasure that we get from doing a job that we care about. So the difference between getting financially confident and getting to a place where you are able to do a job that you actually care about and want to be in, that's one thing. Removing that entirely, that, yeah, I don't like the sound of that. I think a lot of people would be very lost.
Al ElliottI agree. I agree. Okay, we've got time for just a couple more questions. Are you two okay for time here? Have we got another 5 minutes? Fabulous.
C — REVIEWOh, good.
Al ElliottFirst of all, just want to say thank you to a couple of people who've commented. Louise Webster, she's obviously agreeing with both of you. She's saying that focusing on Beyond School, which I think is in capital letters, I'm guessing that's one of Louise's ventures, Beyond School. She's bridging the gap between school and work. So if anyone wants to learn more about that, go and search for Louise Webster. And then Helen— now, Helen, I'm so sorry, I'm not going to get your surname right here. Helen O'Riordan. I'm so sorry. I know that's not right. She just said she set up for any women in or around London, she set up the Women's Informal Investing Network in 2024 to talk about all this kind of thing. So obviously, go and check that out. But there's no— we're not saying that it's good or bad. We're just saying that's what she's commented. I just want to make sure you're not— we're not sort of, you know what I'm trying to say. So I have a question here from one of our previous guests. She's talking more around about the idea of leadership behaviors. So she says, looking back on your own journey, what's one widely accepted success norm you've had to actively unlearn? Does that make any sense? Is there one thing that can jump to your mind? I'm sorry, totally putting you on the spot here, aren't I?
C — REVIEWNo, it's a great question.
D — REVIEWIt is. Do you know, sorry, we're both jumping in. I'm trying to think of, so a success norm. I'm going to turn that slightly. Not getting emotional. So somewhere, somebody wrote the rule book that leaders are not supposed to get emotional. And the team at GoHenry will tell you, and a few interviewers I've spoken to will tell you that I am very capable of getting quite emotional, particularly when I'm talking either about some of the incredible things our team have achieved or some of our case studies and talking about changes in families' lives and children's children's outcomes. And I used to really, really worry about that. I used to think that it made me look weak and a worse leader. And so I have made myself unlearn that. I actually think it shows that I really, really care.
C — REVIEWI love that. I'm going to go for one that's probably a bit more of a cliché actually, which is I certainly spent the first half of my career thinking I was supposed to know the answers. And you have this point where you think you are employed for your competence and you go into a meeting and you'd be like, yeah, I know that. I'm thinking, I don't know that, but you feel as if you should show up. And I think the bit that I've learned is vulnerability, that just saying, I don't know, I'm not sure about that yet. I don't know what the right judgment is. I'm going to go away and find out, but I'm relying on the people around me to help. And I've definitely moved from feeling like I should be an island and I should be able to do everything, to recognizing that people are gonna be better than me at most things. And so, the more open I am to help, the better the decisions I'm going to make are. So, showing up with vulnerability, I think, is probably my best example.
Al ElliottI love this. I love this. That question, I forgot to say, was from Megan French Dunbar, known as MFD to her friends. She's got a great book called This Isn't Working. Just an awesome, awesome person and a really funny, funny woman. So, uh, definitely go and check her out. I've got a couple more here in the comments. We've probably got time to do both of these. Uh, first of all, I'm, um, yes, I think there is a question. This is from Richard Lee, who I think I'm connected to on Richard quite newly, actually. I'm Gen Z and I was one of these kids buying and selling on Depop at 14 years old. What the hell? What's Depop?
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Do we know?
D — REVIEWA trading platform.
C — REVIEWYeah. Yeah.
D — REVIEWYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Yeah.
C — REVIEWVery exciting stuff. Yeah, it is.
Al ElliottI am so old. So it's led me to become a founder. I've become— I've built a community of 10,000 people. I found this in the UK. Amazing. What do you all think we can do to better the level of financial wellbeing for self-employed people? Oh, interesting.
C — REVIEWYeah, I think I've come across some startups looking at this actually, because I think it's a really underserved area, both in terms of how do you run your— how do you get used to running your business, but then also how do you look after your personal finances, when all of the kind of legal and tax structures around being self-employed are quite different. So, I definitely have a little bit of a scan of the market, because I have come across a few founders looking at precisely this challenge, because I think it is underserved. And it's so positive that it's a market that's growing, because it means more people are translating those side hustles into entrepreneurial careers, which is absolutely awesome. So I do think it's an area where you'll see more startups popping up.
D — REVIEWWell, I was going to say though, I know that Xero run a whole information— well, no, not information program. I'm trying to think what to call it, but they run a whole program that is accessible to any of their customers that that teaches and guides on money management for self-employed people. And there's also a wonderful lady called Lucy Cohen who does something very similar. So those are the 2 places that you could go and have a look for that.
Leanne ElliottWe should also mention our friends Perks, led by Stella Smith, who offers corporate-level benefits to self-employed people and small businesses. And I believe that Financial advisory is part of that package as well.
Al ElliottYeah, it's like £5 a month per person you get. It's really good. We use that. Okay, so I've got my own last question, which we'll see if we've got time for. This one is from Alicia Page. She says, essentially she's saying, are there any countries out there that you think are doing financial education well?
C — REVIEWI wish there were. I wish there were. There are different investing trends in different markets. We haven't talked about investing because again, I don't want to make this about pensions, but you do see some markets where people have got into investing habits. So Germany is an example. People have got into the habit of saving a little bit into an investment account each month, which is generally really positive for people's long-term financial outcomes. In the US, you see a lot more workplace participation in financial advice. Largely because people have more complicated tax affairs. So you can look to that market for some models that work really well. But again, it's trying to recognize that people have really high levels of individual accountability on their finances in the US, from health outcomes to personal tax. So there's been an obligation or a requirement for employers to help people with that. I think the sad reality is I see few models in any markets where really good quality financial advice and planning is available in the mass market. There are many examples, the UK being one, where getting access to that help, if you've got complicated financial affairs and/or are wealthy, there are some absolutely phenomenal people who can help you. The mass market, I think, globally is relatively underserved. I don't know, Louise, whether you've come across any examples.
D — REVIEWNo. Do you know, we looked hard for other countries. that had outstanding financial education programs. Obviously, our interest was starting in schools, and the answer is not really. There are one or two. Singapore is quite good. Some of the Nordic countries have some things in place, but it's astounding to me how many have nothing or very little in place. I do think One of the things that actually AI has the potential to democratize is access to much, much better financial advice for all of us. You know, it's one of those things that it shouldn't be for the wealthy or people with complex affairs. It should be for every single one of us to be able to access high-quality information that helps guide our financial decisions. And I'm very hopeful that AI will start to push forward many more players in that space that really can democratize it.
Al ElliottFabulous. What an amazing place to leave it, I think. Leanne, anything else to say before we—
Leanne ElliottJust to say, 2 fabulous organizations here that are trying to make changes and waves in terms of financial education literacy. So definitely go check out Octopus Money and GoHenry. Louise, Ruth, thank you so much. I'm guessing is the best place for people to find you if they've got any questions, LinkedIn? Is that where they should go?
Al ElliottYeah.
midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Absolutely.
Leanne ElliottGreat. So we'll leave links to that as well. We should mention that this video will be reposted on LinkedIn and YouTube, and the audio will be live on our podcast stream later today. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure, uh, to speak with you, and I feel like I've learned, learned so much, and I, I think I need to go learn more about investing.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah. Wish they'd GoHenry'd me when I was a kid. Okay, right. Well, we'll see you all very soon. By the way, quickly, thank you, Georgia Hodgkinson and Anna Lane. Sorry we didn't get to your comments, but thank you very much for that. And if you like this kind of thing, then hopefully more of this. And obviously go follow these 2 amazing women. See you soon.
C — REVIEWBye.