Truth, Lies & Work

Episode 29 · 8 March 2023 · 1:16:49

What is the Difference Between a Coach and a Mentor? (And Which Do You Need?)

What is the Difference Between a Coach and a Mentor? (And Which Do You Need?)

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  1. Intro and panel introduction

    intro#introduction#panel#customer-insight

  2. News round-up: Wellness washing and Starbucks

    news roundup#news#wellness-washing#starbucks

  3. The Harvard Study of Adult Development

    panel interview#harvard-study#adult-development#research

  4. What's the difference between a coach and a mentor?

    panel interview#coaching#mentoring#difference

  5. Al's personal experience with coaching

    panel interview#coaching#personal-experience#mental-health

  6. The image problem mentoring has with Gen Z

    panel interview#mentoring#gen-z#image

  7. The 'magic minute' listening technique

    panel interview#listening#technique#communication

  8. Can anyone be a coach or mentor? (Age, perspective, and diversity)

    panel interview#coaching#mentoring#diversity#age

  9. Transactional vs. transformational coaching

    panel interview#coaching#transactional#transformational

  10. The value exchange in coaching and mentoring

    panel interview#coaching#mentoring#value-exchange

  11. Coaching in organisations — what the data says

    panel interview#coaching#organisations#data

  12. How do you find a coach or mentor?

    panel interview#coaching#mentoring#finding

  13. What happens if you don't like your coach or mentor?

    panel interview#coaching#mentoring#regulation

  14. The future of coaching — including AI

    panel interview#coaching#future#ai

  15. The science and business case for coaching

    panel interview#coaching#science#business-case

  16. Outro and what's coming next

    outro#outro#next#summary

Show notes

What Is the Difference Between a Coach and a Mentor? (And Which Do You Need?)

Happy International Women's Day! Al and Leanne are joined by four formidable women to unpack everything you've ever wanted to know about coaching and mentoring — the differences, the science, the business case, and what the future holds (AI included).

This is a bumper panel episode. Joining the conversation:

  • Julie Meyer — serial entrepreneur, Founder & Co-CEO of Augmentors, and Co-Host of the Augmentors Podcast (our sibling show on the HubSpot Podcast Network)
  • Lucy Mullins & Sonya Shellard — professionally accredited coaches, coach educators, coach supervisors, and trainers. Both studied at the University of Oxford and co-founded #RideTheWave Professional Coach Training, offering Association for Coaching accredited programmes
  • Paulwyn Devasundaram — Founder and CEO of Medoo, a smart coaching tool co-created with coaches and powered by AI

Together, they answer the questions every leader, founder, and career-climber asks: What actually separates a coach from a mentor? Can anyone do either? How do you find the right person — and what happens if you pick wrong? And is there a real, evidence-backed business case for investing in either?

🎙️ What's the Difference Between a Coach and a Mentor?

The perennial question gets the panel treatment. Julie kicks off with a simple framing: a coach is typically paid; a mentor generally isn't. A coach is really "a thinking partner" — someone who helps you think better, not someone who tells you what to do. A mentor, by contrast, has walked the path before and shares that lived experience. Think Chip Conley mentoring the founders of Airbnb.

Lucy and Sonya add a continuum model: mentoring is "you want someone who's been there, done that," while coaching is more about unlocking your own answers. The two blur in the middle, and where you land depends on what you need.

🧠 Transactional vs. Transformational Coaching

Al breaks down two distinct flavours of coaching:

  • Transactional coaching — surface-level, goal-focused, skill-building. "I want to become a better presenter."
  • Transformational coaching — deeper work on assumptions, beliefs, and mindsets. "Why do I keep sabotaging myself?"

Both have their place. The trick is knowing which one you're signing up for — and which one you actually need.

🔍 How Do You Find a Coach or Mentor?

Julie shares the "search" principle from Augmentors' eight principles: don't just pick the person who looks like you. Our human nature wants similarity, but the best mentoring relationships often come from difference — someone who challenges your perspective rather than mirrors it.

Paulwyn adds a refreshing take on regulation: coaching isn't highly regulated, and for her, that's a feature, not a bug. It keeps the door open for approaches that work even if they're unconventional. The flip side? You need to do your due diligence.

🤝 What If You Pick the Wrong Coach?

Lucy's advice: if you're a couple of sessions in and it doesn't feel right, say something. A good coach will want to know. The relationship is the intervention — and if the chemistry isn't there, the coaching won't work, no matter how skilled the coach is.

📈 The Science and Business Case

Leanne brings the evidence: coaching works, and the research backs it up. Lucy and Sonya get refreshingly honest about the business case — including what coaching can't fix. It's not a silver bullet for a toxic culture or a broken system. But as a tool for developing leaders, improving performance, and retaining talent? The case is strong.

🤖 The Future of Coaching (Including AI)

Paulwyn is building Medoo to help coaching scale — using AI to design coaching journeys and track insights along the way. The panel explores how technology can make coaching more accessible without replacing the human connection at its heart.

💬 More From This Episode

Connect with Julie:

Connect with Lucy:

Connect with Sonya:

Find Out More About #RideTheWave Professional Coaching:

Connect with Paulwyn:

From the News Round-up:

  • The Good Life: Lessons from the World's Longest Study on Happiness, by Robert Waldinger — Amazon UK

📚 Listen Back

🔬 Take Part in Our Research

We're running new leadership research and would love your input: Take the survey

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
?Nice.
Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. I apologise for the audio quality on this particular episode. We had a catastrophic data loss, which meant that we had to rely on our backups. So you might hear us coughing over guests, or maybe just me stroking my beard. Sorry about that.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we're here to help you simplify the science of people. Welcome.
Al ElliottWelcome, welcome. So today, what are we talking about today, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottToday we are talking about coaching and mentoring. I don't wanna say coaching versus mentoring. It's not a fight. But we're gonna explore some differences.
Al ElliottYou say that, but my marketing mind is already going, okay, right. Who's the evil one? Are we gonna— we're gonna definitely have a fight. So we've— you might see the title of this is something which Leanne doesn't approve of, but mentoring. And coaching, is it really a horrendous waste of time? Oof.
Leanne ElliottWell, let's, let's find out, shall we? If that is your, if that is your question, listener, coming into this, we've got you. That's what we're chatting about.
Al ElliottSo as normal, we have 3, we have a number of guests. We normally do a panel kind of style episode. So we've got 3 guests. The first one is Julie Mayer, who is a serial entrepreneur. She's founder and CEO at Augmenters, which is a content platform which is dedicated to creating fresh language around the timeless concept of mentoring. She also is a co-host of Augmenters Podcast, which is the sibling show on HubSpot. So let's go and meet Julie.
Julie MeyerMy background really is just in entrepreneurship. I really love creating B2B companies that help serve clients and the opportunity to do better in the world. And right at the beginning of the pandemic, March 11th, 2020, I was asked to speak in a class at Tufts University in Boston by a nice gentleman named Jimmy. And we had that kind of pre-pandemic moment where we got a chance to meet meet, sit around with a group of students and talk about things that we cared about. And we really clicked and found that mentoring was important to both of us. So as we were locked in our homes, 2 extroverts, 2 overactive entrepreneur extroverts, that's a lot of E's, trapped in their homes, we just would have these Friday Zoom calls and found that mentoring was a really important topic to both of us. And we both had an interest in creating a content platform around it. So that's how Augmenters was born.
Al ElliottInteresting. I've never heard Jimmy described as a gentleman before.
Leanne ElliottWhat have you heard him described as?
Al ElliottI think we should move on. I'm just adding a bit of drama.
Leanne ElliottAnd our next guests are Lucy Mullins and Sonia Shellard. Sonia and Lucy are experienced, professionally accredited coaches. They are coach educators, they are coach supervisors and trainers. And fun fact, it was actually Lucy and Sonia that trained me in my accreditation.
Al ElliottThey did such a great job.
Leanne ElliottThey, they are incredible, incredible women. Uh, they're both business owners. Uh, they run successful coaching and consulting companies and work with a whole host of clients, including entrepreneurs, FTSE 100 companies, universities, and charities. Um, they also both studied at the University of Oxford.
Al ElliottReally?
?Yeah.
Al ElliottFancy.
Leanne ElliottVery fancy. Very, very clever women we have with us today. Um, and they're co-founders and co-directors of Ride the Wave Professional Coach Training, uh, which offers Association for Training accredited coach training programs for executives, personal, business, and leader coaches.
Al ElliottLet's go meet Lucy.
Lucy MullinsI'm Lucy Mullins. I'm one of the co-founders of Ride the Wave Professional Coach Training. I love everything to do with coaching. I call my coaching practice cheerleading, which hopefully immediately gives you a bit of insight into my personality and my style. I started my career as a fitness instructor. I love all things action, energy, move, And my passion in the coaching world is bringing neuroscience and psychology into how we coach people and can make them their best selves.
Al ElliottRight, should we go and meet Sonia?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Sonia ShellardUh, Sonia Shellard. Um, so I have been in coaching for a long time, very gray-haired, and, um, I have main roles now, couple really, are some executive coaching, also running a global leadership and management development organization called Vector Group. How would I describe my coaching role? So Lucy has a wonderful phrase, cheerleading. I would suggest that I go into people's circuses and come out with all the monkeys. That's my aim, is to sort of go in and leave them with the great stuff. And I often find myself with, you know, a car full of monkeys on the way out. But that's my role, you know, really sort of clear up dysfunction, things that are getting in the way, and leaving them a little bit freer to give the best performance of their lives. Funnily enough, it was a phrase that I read recently, like, um, a mantra, Polish. It's a Polish proverb, and it is basically saying, you know, this is not my circus, these are not my monkeys. And it's the idea of moving on, having that sort of detachment from it. So as a coach, as an external coach, I don't have an agenda. I have that objectivity that is lost when you're in it. And so I can sort of guide and navigate through and help and You know, lead the monkeys out of the arena and allow people to just see it for what is needed. So that's where it comes from.
Al ElliottAnd our final guest is Pulwin Devasundaram. She's founder and CEO of Medoo. It's a smart coaching tool which is co-created with coaches and powered by AI, something we talked about at the beginning of the year that we thought AI was gonna come into coaching, and clearly it is. Does— and basically, it designs a coaching journey and tracks the insights along the way. So should we go and meet Pulwin?
Paul WynneI'm Paul Wynne. I'm the co-founder of Medoo. Uh, we are the smart coaching software that helps coaches and coachees get to those aha moments quicker. Um, and yeah, it's such a pleasure to be here today, uh, to chat with you about all things coaching and tech. And I love that intersection of tech and coaching, so pleasure to be here.
Leanne ElliottI think Paul Wynne has just described for me perfectly what great coaching does. And then I've had so many moments, and particularly with, with Sonia and Lucy being coached by them, where I've gone Oh. And it's that breakthrough moment for me that just makes coaching just really, really, really cool. I'm excited about this week's episode. I think we're gonna learn a lot.
Al ElliottI think we will too. So it's now down to the 3rd week of our news roundup where we put some kind of random jingle or music behind it. And then Leanne goes through what couple of things that she's learned and also the word of the week.
Sonia ShellardYes.
Al ElliottThis is, yeah, this is still in testing phase, this particular session, but this particular segment. But let's see how we go.
Leanne ElliottI like it.
Al ElliottYou just like the jingle.
Leanne ElliottI do. I do enjoy the jingle. Shall I start with a new word?
Al ElliottYes. New word alert.
Leanne ElliottWellness washing.
Al ElliottWhat the hell is that?
Leanne ElliottWellness washing.
Al ElliottWell, don't just say it again. Explain what it is.
Leanne ElliottDo you know what it just reminded myself of? You know when you watch those, like, spelling bees on the telly off of the US? Because we don't really have them in the UK, I don't think. And we always have someone going, wellness washing. Can you repeat the word, please? Wellness washing.
Al ElliottIn that case, can you use it in a sentence?
Leanne ElliottVery good. So yeah, wellness washing suggests that— so we have lots of wellbeing products out there, right? And wellness washing suggests that the contribution of these products or services towards our wellness might not quite be as impactful or as direct as we're led to believe. So in the workplace, wellbeing washing is when businesses will advocate for employee wellbeing, good mental health, but without backing it up with actual tangible benefits for their employees, for their workforce. So really, there's no kind of measurement of how effective this intervention is in supporting our, our wellness. There's no kind of evaluation to it. And I think And I think that that's good, and I think it's good that wellness washing is being talked about. My concern, and some of the things that I've read, is that wellness washing, or the term kind of, and the, I guess the, what'd be the right word, like maybe the fraudulent aspect to wellness interventions, it's being attributed to the intervention, not the kind of the intent or context the intervention is being done in. So for example, I saw a really scathing article about coaching and how coaching is basically wellness washing, which is bullshit. But I understand the point. But I think it's like, it's like saying, you know, a plaster is really great for a paper cut, but it's gonna be a bit shit for a broken arm. Therefore, plasters are completely useless and have no place in healing the human body.
Sonia ShellardFair.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's the same. That's what you're saying with the interventions. The wellbeing intervention is the plaster, and it's not the plaster, it's how that plaster's being used. So if you're seeing all these things around wellness washing and they're talking about particular interventions Approach with caution, friends. It's actually more about how that intervention has been applied within the business and how its impact has been measured.
?Yeah.
Al ElliottThat makes perfect sense. So, I mean, it does seem a little bit of a shortcut as well. So you go, alright, we need to do some wellbeing. Let's just pick from a hat. Oh, we're gonna do a team day.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd, but then also at the same time firing people for, for wanting to work from home or just, you know, denying, denying help with anything.
Leanne ElliottIndeed.
Al ElliottOkay, so what else you seen, Leah?
Leanne ElliottWell, speaking of this disconnect, perhaps the dissonance, Starbucks has been in the news quite a bit recently, hasn't it? Um, so yeah, and we're back to this, um, return to the office mandate. Uh, Howard Schultz, CEO of Starbucks, who we, we have, we have loved and bigged up in the past, but he is currently asking his white-collar staff, uh, to return to the office for 3 days a week. This seems to be the magic number. 3 days a week. So yeah, and there's also been lots of talk as well about, about kind of their barristers and how their frontline staff are being treated in terms of unions and pay, etc. Um, so yeah, a bit, bit of unhappy people in Starbucks at the minute. So they wrote a letter, they wrote an open letter protesting the company's return to office mandate, um, and its alleged union busting, um, opening a new, a new battle really over it. Um, and I've got quite— I've got a little extract which I think kind of sums it up quite nicely. in a way that it's not just staff slagging off Starbucks. Like, they're hurt. This psychological contract, this promise has been broken between us. So yeah, this is an extract from the employee open letter. We love Starbucks, but these actions are fracturing trust in Starbucks leadership. Morale is at an all-time low, and the brand reputation and financial value of this publicly traded company are at risk. That's what happens when a psychological— an understanding as an employer and employee, and when that isn't fulfilled in the way you expect, we don't like it.
Al ElliottShit ensues.
Leanne ElliottShit ensues. So yeah, they're talking that, you know, they're not listening. And I think again, it's this consistency and this incongruence that drives us nuts. You know, they said, we believe in Starbucks, we believe in its core values, and we call for a return to those values. Currently, no public response from leadership team at Starbucks. But we'll keep you posted.
Al ElliottI also like that you called them barristers rather than baristas.
Leanne ElliottDid I call them barristers?
Al ElliottSo I've just— I think the main, the main difference is that, is that baristas make coffee and barristers make bank.
?Yes.
Al ElliottWhat else you got, Leah?
Leanne ElliottI have some research for you. The Harvard Study of Adult Development is an 85-year and running longitudinal study, 724 participants. Um, and now also their spouses and children have been brought into the fold. And that's all aimed at discovering what makes people happy in life. Um, so yeah, about like 2003, there's a really famous TEDx talk, uh, with Dr. Robert Waldinger, uh, where he kind of talks about the kind of most important takeaways they're seeing. Um, and it's not about wealth, it's not about fame, it's not about working harder and harder. The key finding we had from the the study is that good relationships keep us happier and healthier, period.
Al ElliottAnd it makes sense. I mean, there's that really famous article from the dying wishes or the wishes of the dying or something like that. And it's, they surveyed a lot of people who are in hospice at the end of life care, and they said, what are your biggest regrets? And there was the main ones were I spent too much time at the office, and I didn't keep up with friends. Who, who, when I lost contact with friends and, you know, those are the relations, relationships. So, yeah, I agree. I concur is what I'm saying.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Yeah. So the, the kind of the, the, the most recent kind of findings from the research that's coming out is basically how people can, can do that, can build these relationships. And they're talking about the, the idea of social fitness. And so basically the practices that, that people can do to build these really rich and fulfilling relationships, whether that's friendships, whether that's relationships personally, romantically, um, or whether it's within, within our work. Um, so yeah, that's all in, in the new book, The Good Life, which we'll leave a link to in the show notes.
Al ElliottReminds me of that joke, what's the least believable thing about the Bible? That a man in his mid-30s has got 12 close friends. I think that's a little bit too, too close to the bone there, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottNot in terms of religious, just in terms of my life, looking at my friends. I'm like, yeah, I've got 2, and one of them sat here opposite me now. So what is—
Leanne ElliottKind of friends, quite a strong word.
Al ElliottWe, we, we're acquaintances. We're co-hosts. That's it.
Leanne ElliottWe, we, we know each other.
Paul WynneSo, yeah.
Leanne ElliottBut I thought that was quite a nice little, little link into our coaching today as well, that it's all about relationships really, as we will find out. So in terms of the structured show today, we are asking lots of questions that you might have about coaching and mentoring. What is the difference? Can anyone be a coach or mentor? Do you have to be a certain age or, or have experience of years under your belt to be a coach or a mentor? If you want to engage a, a coach or mentor, what should you expect? How do you know if they're qualified? How do you know if they're, they're gonna be any good? Um, and yeah, what is the future of coaching? Is technology gonna play a more central role in coaching interventions in the future?
Al ElliottSo let's start with this, this, this perennial question of what is the difference between a coach and a mentor? Yeah.
Leanne ElliottSo we've spoken in earlier episodes about how coaches, mentors, and therapists all have a role to play in, in psychological health and development. I think particularly in the burnout episodes, we, we talked about, about that with Will. So if you are considering engaging one of these professionals, it's important to understand the different ways they operate, the types of relationships that you build with them, and the different ways that they can help. So let's start by defining mentorship.
Julie MeyerI think a coach tends to be, well, frankly, a coach is paid, and a mentor generally is not. So a coach is really there to help you see things in yourself and help you grow, but it might have a much more linear goal, where mentoring, we see, tends to be just a more overall support of an individual on their wellbeing journey or whatever it is that they're working towards, how to help them grow to their potential.
Al ElliottSo I see what Julie's saying is that coaching tends to be paid and mentoring tends not to be paid. I remember I've had a couple of mentors in my life, and just, just in case anyone has just arrived from them, from, from Venus and doesn't know what mentoring is, essentially mentoring is where someone who usually who has done the thing before you is helping you to achieve the same kind of goals. So for example, we had on a great guest from the Elder Academy, Carrie, and The whole point of the Elders Academy, I think, is that he was— he's the guy who started it. Do you remember his name?
Leanne ElliottChip Conley.
Al ElliottChip Conley. He was basically the mentors for the guys for Airbnb. So he'd built businesses before and he mentored the guys for Airbnb and then obviously got himself an equity stake, I think, in there. Oof.
Leanne ElliottGood for you, Chip.
Julie MeyerYeah.
Al ElliottNice, nice work.
Julie MeyerLovely.
Leanne ElliottSo that's mentoring. And then we also asked Lucy and Sonia what the difference is. Lucy introduces, I think, a really helpful way of thinking about it, and it, it, It's thinking of it as a continuum. And we'll hear from, from Sonia as well, that both coaches and mentors have an important role to play.
Al ElliottSo here's Lucy.
Lucy MullinsIf you think of a continuum of coaching through to mentoring, where mentoring is you want somebody who is an expert in that field, has been there, can say, oh, go to this conference, do this, you know, I'm gonna mentor you in this. And coaching is much purer. I don't know anything about your world, but I'm gonna ask great questions. I'm gonna scaffold your thinking and bring models. And then it's a sort of sliding scale. So for some people with a health goal, they will absolutely want a PT who can tell them what to eat and what exercise to do. But for others, it might be much more of a psychological barrier with exercise. And so they know exactly what they should be doing, but there's something else going on that is stopping them from eating what they know is going to make them feel better and the exercise they could be doing. And that's where knowledge can get in the way, unless you're a very experienced coach and you've got that knowledge and you can park it. And I have firsthand experience of this because I went into coaching from being a fitness and health and wellbeing coach. And so my first few clients naturally came to me for that, but they didn't want PT advice. They knew exactly what to do. There was other underlying stuff, and I found it so hard not to say, oh, you know what, you should try it. I'll tell you what, there's a great salsa class around the corner. Or, uh, it was really hard for me. Now I can do that now, uh, but I do see that with other people that come in with expertise. It's so hard to let go of it and be truly curious and then just apply some of the more psychological principles to understanding what's the emotional undercurrent that's going on here, because you're so desperate to solve. Often people that go into helping professions really want to solve, you know, and so that's, uh, we call it the rescuer syndrome. It's not a real syndrome, it's just a nickname for people that want to help. Um, and so that often comes in. So think of that continuum, and anyone listening, think, well, do I really want to unpick what's going on for me deep down, or is this I actually just don't really even know where to get started and I want someone to tell me what to do, or somewhere in between. And that's your sort of difference between a coach and a mentor. And obviously coaches can do both, but that's something to think about.
Al ElliottAnd here's Sonia's version.
Sonia ShellardSo my version of that is I am a very experienced leadership trainer. So I work with leadership teams, leadership individuals around the world, and really equip them to lead. But I'm also a leadership coach. Am I a mentor in leadership? Yeah. So how do I decide? We talk about the hats that you wear within a session, for example. So we'll come back to the hats. If you want the definition between the two, there's lots of, lots of sort of knowledge around this, but the mentor, you would select a mentor because you would have expected them to have done what you've done before. So for example, I may be a senior associate in a law firm and I would like to be pick a partner as a mentor because I want to go into the partnership world. So I would absolutely— don't come to me on that as a mentor because I haven't become a partner in a law firm. But you can work alongside. So a lot of people have a coach and a mentor. So the mentor is there who's going to really help them, inform them, give them the what they did, what they didn't do. They will probably give some advice. We hope they have some coaching skills in there. They may not, but there's lots of different types of mentor out there. So it's really great learning from someone who has been there before. So that is why you would choose them. Um, now the coach does not have to have been there before at all, going right back and actually listening in. So I might say, so Al, it sounds to me like what I'm hearing is there's a lot of frustration around that. What has to happen to remove some of that for you? I don't need to be a mentor, but I really need to get into what is going to stop you. Um, so mentor has been there before. has gone down that path I expect them to, and I'll ask them some quite detailed questions about the professional, what I'm trying to achieve. The coach is the expert in saying, brilliant, that's where you want to go, you're here now, how am I going to help you to get there?
Lucy MullinsOne is about putting in advice, um, content, um, and one is about sort of pulling it out. A good coach, like, extracts what you've already got in your head. So, uh, Nancy Klein, who wrote Time to Think, who's a a very big sort of guru in the area of coaching, said the head that contains the problem also contains the solution. And I think that's a lovely thought. And so as a coach, you're just trying to help pull that out, but as a mentor, you are sort of putting stuff in. You're saying, here's some information, here's some advice. So that's a sort of shorthand, I suppose, for how you think about it. But there is absolutely that blended space in the middle, and I wanted to pick up on what Sonia said about we really hope mentors use coaching skills rather than using it— I've heard lots stories of mentors kind of using it as a showcase. So, look what I've done, aren't I great?
Paul WynneThis is—
Lucy Mullinsand it becomes very much about them being able to sort of say, look what I've done, you can follow my path. And actually, really good mentors do a little bit of putting in, but they also do a lot of pulling out and use coaching skills. So, we do have people that are professional mentors coming through Ride the Wave and building their coaching skills to make them better mentors.
Al ElliottI read somewhere that the sort of coaching and mentoring analogy is that a mentor comes from the Greek word, and I'm not clever enough to know exactly what the etymology is, But it comes from the Greek word, which is sort of like mythical creature, someone who's there to guide you towards a particular thing. Whereas a coach, if you think about a coach and horses, then the coach would be the person sitting on top, like, kind of whipping the horses. Although you can't whip horses these days, I'm sure. But the person who's driving the whole sort of, like, show forward. And I'm not sure whether that actually helps or muddies the water, but I think what Lucy and Sonia did was a great explanation of the difference between the two.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. And, and, and Yeah, the little nuances in different ways coaches and mentors operate, really helpful. And of course, opening ourselves up to this type of support, to show the vulnerability that's needed to learn and develop, and in some cases heal, is a very personal journey. This episode is not intended to have an opinion on which is better, mentoring, coaching, or therapy. It's up to you, you know, which one you think is going to serve you. And gain some insight. insights, her own personal experience.
Paul WynneI'd struggled a lot of mental health struggles over the years. I'd struggled to build good habits. I'd had some health struggles as well. And I'm not lying when I say that coaching actually helped me across all of these like nothing else helped me. Like apps didn't help me, um, yeah, speaking to therapists didn't actually help me that much unfortunately. They do amazing work, but in my case it didn't help. What I loved about coaching was that it was very forward-looking. It wasn't necessarily just about dealing with your past or dealing with issues. It was very forward-looking. And it wasn't the coach giving me advice or just sitting there and passively listening to me. They gave me agency almost. They almost gave me permission to figure out my solutions. And that was incredibly valuable for me. So that meant that I understood that the process of change isn't linear. You take steps back. You, you know, like you might be doing really well and then suddenly you've gone back to your old habits and your old patterns. But that's okay. That's part of the change process. So having someone there in my corner helping me through the ups and downs of change, helping me navigate complex health systems, like we have all over the world, was so helpful in many areas of my life. And that's how— so there was that aha moment of, I get why coaching is so helpful for behavior change. I get it, and I want to help this. I want to do something in this industry, and I saw the gap there that I could fill. I felt like I was through the combination of skills that I had to fill, and that's That's why I'm so passionate about it.
Al ElliottI really like this idea that coaches don't give advice.
Paul WynneI—
Al Elliottthis is my personal, like, my personal experience of mentoring and coaching. So, and this is not the proper definition, but I kind of expect a coach not to give me advice, but to help me to achieve something. I'd expect a mentor to give me advice because I'd expect the mentor to have been there before. I mean, how far away from— have I just ruined the whole idea of coaching versus mentoring there?
Leanne ElliottI agree. I agree. I think coaching isn't really, isn't about giving advice. I think you might offer suggestions, or ideally, as, as Paul Wynne said, you're trying to empower the other person to, and give them permission to come up with their own solutions. And that's what, what coaching is. It's about enablement. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm with you. I think advice giving is a, is a key difference perhaps between coaching and mentoring.
Al ElliottDefinitely. So we asked Julie, um, about the whole idea of the image of mentoring, because millennials, Gen Z, are they more or less inclined to look for mentors?
Julie MeyerI think that they feel that the term is very old school. I think everybody has this vision of a mentor. I know I did when I first started having these conversations, is like this, you know, okay, frankly, big white man behind a desk, you know, shaking the finger, telling you what to do and how to do it. So I think part of our work with Augmenters is getting beyond the word mentoring and actually really talking about it as augmentoring and talking about it as a way to really help benefit each other. So I think Gen Z needs that direction and they need that help, but I think they need to think about it in a different way because the old model doesn't necessarily work for them the same way the old model for a lot of things doesn't necessarily work for them. I mean, especially in the corporate environment, being really mindful of your audience, I think the old model was, You know, leadership says, we're having a problem with retention. HR, get HR on the phone. We need a mentoring program. Okay, you know, let's just kind of smash people together. You're a woman, you're a woman, great, go mentor each other. You're Black, you're Black, great, go mentor each other. And there's not a lot of support around tools, principles, content, or really ways Because what we know is that you have to be able to connect really authentically to be able to have a good mentoring relationship. So the old model is very based on outcomes and function, where the new model is really based on a deeper connection in these relationships, where you're able to really get to know yourself first, and you're really able to be able to get to know someone else to be able to support each other in a very genuine way. So, I think the old model of just like smashing people together, sending them off to the sunset, good luck, hope it goes well, hope this increases retention, check the box, we have a mentoring program, versus really helping employees to connect more authentically, we see that as what, you know, what we really call Augmentoring, is this next evolution of mentoring.
Leanne ElliottGoing back to that idea of mentoring and coaching on a continuum, I think what Julie's saying there is that mentoring, the old-school mentoring, was maybe really, really far to the left, and it's kind of coming a little bit, um, a little bit further centre with the view that it's about this authentic connection, these relationships. And I think this is maybe a similarity that we're seeing with, with coaching and mentoring. Julie also mentions there the importance of empathy. So empathy is created through empathic listening or active listening. It's that practice of being attentive and responsive to others during the conversation, which might sound simple, but how many people do you talk to that you're like, I know you're just waiting for me to stop talking so you can say what you wanted to say.
Julie MeyerMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottSo it really is kind of being that person that will hold that space, will listen empathically, will find that connection, will find similarities between their experience and your own, and really give that heartfelt response or that more appropriate feedback given on what you've said. It builds mutual understanding, it builds mutual respect, and it really is about this kind of balance in the relationship between the speaker and the listener, or in this case, between the mentor and mentee or coach and coachee. Yeah.
Al ElliottI think you said one of the best things that you, I mean, you already are a fantastic listener, but you said some of the feedback from yourself and some of the other people on the course you were doing with Sonia and Lucy was that they were teaching you how to just shut up and listen. They, they do mention something called a magic minute, where it's just you, the person stops talking and you don't say anything. And that often can lead to, to other people to them, just expanding on what they were going to say. So let's have a little listen to Sonia as she talks about the importance of listening in coaching.
Sonia ShellardWe would, we often say, we ask people to sort of think, wait, wait, ask yourself, why am I talking? Is it that the time should be used for me imparting information or knowledge or helping them, or should I be listening to what's going on? So the balance absolutely should be, they should be doing most of the talking. And we lightly navigate and guide and help them through. One of the biggest, most important things that we notice in coaching in terms of balance with questioning and listening is the power of the pause. So the power of the pause, I ask you a question and I wait, and I wait, and I let you think, and I get comfortable with that silence. And then I might just say, Al, um, what else? And then you might say what you really want to say. Now, if I'm so busy chatting away to you, And conversing with you, I'll never hear what you really wanted to say. So that's something we notice a lot and help our, um, our people with.
Leanne ElliottI was reading a case study on, on this, um, and it was kind of, kind of an add-on to that technique, which is so powerful that Sonny just mentioned there. But particularly if you have a coachee who's getting quite emotional as they're thinking about this question, is the coach saying something like, I don't want to disturb the moment you're having here. But can I ask you what it is that you're experiencing here?
Al ElliottOh, that's good.
?Yeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's just things like coaching questions like that that just give me goosebumps because it just allows you, as Pauline said before, it gives you permission to really be that vulnerable and, and to really kinda think about those, those solutions. So, yeah. Great advice from Sonia there.
Al ElliottAnd if you're listening and you're in sales, listen up. Do, do what we just talked about there because that is one of the best things you can do in a sales environment. is when someone— you just ask someone to describe what their situation is at this point in time, and you go, uh-huh, and just shut up. Because they expect you in a sales position to come back and go, oh, well, our thing can help you with this, and our widget will do all this. No, don't do that. Just listen and leave that magic moment. Julie also believes that listening plays a central role in mentoring.
Julie MeyerThe biggest mentorship killer is not listening to the person who's coming to you. And conversely, I guess it's not sharing authentically, right? If somebody's not actually sharing what's really going on, then that person can't listen. But, but that's the key piece, is being able to really share authentically and being able to listen to each other.
Al ElliottSo, so far, we've had one difference between coaching and mentoring, that is advice, that mentors give advice and coaches don't necessarily, and 2 similarities in that you need to have a great relationship And you need to be good at listening and have empathy. So what else? I was curious about this. Can someone who's 19 be a mentor? Can they be a coach? So we asked Julie, can you be a mentor? And if you haven't got gray hair?
Julie MeyerYeah. I think the key thing is really about the vision, right? Is what is the vision of the 22-year-old or the 25-year-old? What is the vision? You know, what are they working towards? What do they care about? What are, what is important to them? And how are they trying to grow to their potential? So if the, 25-year-old has 3 years more experience and can help guide, can help coach, can help the, you know, the mentee kind of think more deeply about themselves, then great. So I think it's really more about the outcome and a little bit more about the goal versus the age between each other. But with any relationship, both people have to want to be there. So I guess that's really a key piece, right? Does the 25-year-old really want to mentor the 22-year-old? And does the 22-year-old want to be mentored by a 25-year-old? And if they're both engaged in it, then what we really believe in with Augmenters is setting up— setting them each up for success and giving them, you know, an opportunity to really get to know themselves better, to get to know each other better. So I think it has no age, and I think you can learn just as much from somebody who's a peer as you could somebody who's— who has more, you know, decades more experience than you.
Leanne ElliottSo no, Julie is saying you don't have to be a particular age, um, or older to be a mentor. But what about coaching? Can you be a coach in your early 20s? Here's Lucy.
Lucy MullinsOh, I'm really passionate about this.
Paul WynneAbsolutely.
Lucy MullinsIt's all about perspective. And one of our values at Ride the Wave is celebrating diversity, and we talk a lot about diversity in every way, and age is absolutely one of those. Because so many coaches have been seen to be sort of over 40 and have big executive careers, and it feels like an industry that maybe is not for you or not achievable for everybody to get a coach. And at Ride the Wave, we encourage lots of younger people to come and train with us. So our youngest, I think, is 22, um, and actually she was utterly fabulous. So I got coaching from her as part of the training because Sonia and I always join in and, and, and take part in the coaching. And it's the perspective that younger people have and just different eyes. And coaching, and I know we're going to get into this a bit later, is so different from mentoring. You don't need to have had the experience to be there. It's one of the reasons I call my practice cheerleading, because coaching, certainly from a sports angle, comes with, well, if you're going to be a football coach, you have to know about football. But actually, to be an executive coach, a professional coach, a personal coach, it's very much about staying detached Sonia said, and how much easier is it to detach if you've not had that experience and you can remain genuinely curious, ask great questions, and you really have to listen. You're not going to make any assumptions because, oh my goodness, you don't know what it's like to lead a big team of people or be a parent at 22. So you will potentially ask better questions and offer a whole fresh new perspective without getting caught up in the story and bringing your own That's what I liked about the Samaritans as well.
Leanne ElliottThey were very much into diversity in terms of age. You know, it's about your ability to listen and hold a space. Um, I was 19 when I became a Samaritan. So yeah, age is, age is not always a factor, and particularly not in the field of coaching. And yeah, Sonia agrees. She points out that younger coaches may experience some challenges, but the value that they have to offer is inspiring.
Sonia ShellardYes, so there are different challenges. So totally agreeing with what Lucy is saying about the ability to coach. Is absolutely not age-dependent. However, yes, when it comes to marketing and setting up a business and finding your clients, there are just different challenges. There are different things. So for example, it used to be, uh, so my wonderful ex-colleague who is now retired, he was saying it's brilliant, the more gray hair I get, the better in this industry, the more credibility I have. And that used to be the case because executive coaching very much seen as we want the wise sort of older person who's been there. However, it'd be wrong to dismiss the fact that there are some credibility issues in terms of certain clients appointing certain coaches. So the key thing, as Lucy mentioned, is there are many different types of coaching, and knowing your niche and knowing what you can offer— but I think that's a whole different topic in terms of marketing and commercials is different In terms of ability to coach, everything Lucy said, and this sort of— when we come to talk about mentoring, the reverse mentoring is exceptionally powerful. And what I love is a lot of people I coach are really struggling with managing and leading younger people, and they keep using what I call a lot of stereotyping, and they all think that the whole generation are doing this or not doing this. It isn't true. And so therefore, to work with a younger coach I think could be very inspiring and perspective broadening.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
?And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good looking.
Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.
?Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
?It can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
?I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back.
?Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
?Keep that in.
Al ElliottSo there we go. That sums that up. I think what— a warning that a non-technical person is about to try and use a technical phrase. That's me. So I think what we, what we are talking about here is transactional and transformational coaching. So, Leanne, please correct me, but it feels like we can make a case that mentoring is more transactional, as in there is a transaction. I wanna get from A to B. But maybe coaching is more transformational. You need to make a trans— transformation.
Sonia ShellardYeah.
Leanne ElliottI think it's a, it's a broad generalization, and that's what we're gonna have to do here if we're talking about kinda the broad differences between mentoring and coaching. Yeah, I think that is a good way of looking at the difference. Not to say that coaches can't also be transactional. So, for example, if you're talking about like maybe interview coaching, that's going to be much more transactional than, you know, talking about, you know, as Lucy said, the psychological changes that might need to happen for you to embrace exercise. That is more transformational. So, yeah, let's hear a bit more on that from our experts. Let's go to Sonia first on the difference between transactional and transformational coaching.
Sonia ShellardThere are 2 different sort of types of coaching here. There's transactional coaching. So, I would like to become better at presenting might be a topic someone brings to coaching. It's what we call transactional coaching. So the need for vulnerability isn't there. So I think we need to be careful we don't have our poor listeners think you have to be vulnerable to come to coaching, um, because there's a lot of very transactional coaching that takes place which really only needs a lightweight touch in the relationship. And sort of, um, relatively simplistic surface-level coaching. Brilliant. So that is a lot of coaching. Now, there is also the very fertile ground of transformational coaching, which is that double-loop learning, which is absolutely your point about saying, I really need to go back. I've tried X, I haven't got the result I need. I keep changing X, but I'm still not getting the result I need. We may need to dig deeper. What are the assumptions, the beliefs, the mindset that you have about this that is actually your identity, the really rich part that is stopping you? Going back to what Lucy was talking about, weight loss, nutrition, exercise, rarely, rarely is it simply at transactional level, which is why we've got a trillion billion pound— I think that's the word, trillion billion? Make it up anyway, uh, industry, uh, of wellbeing. And it's, and it's still one of the fastest growing because we're not dealing with core belief, your identity, what is really happening there. So really, that's where you need coaches who are trained to that superior level. By that, we talk about the advanced level, which our program is. They are capable, they have activity, they are able to guide you through belief review, belief challenge, and rewriting a belief. Different to counseling. That's a whole different topic, counseling versus coaching. But the core belief bit is really important. Um, so yes, but you need, you need a skilled coach to do that. And certainly everyone who's been on our program is absolutely equipped to start working with you on the core belief.
Al ElliottSo let's hear Lucy's thoughts on this.
Lucy MullinsI was going to quote our lovely colleague Michael, who's our accreditation lifeguard at Ride the Wave. He taught me, I used to run a program with him and He always said, if you're not at fear, doubt, or insecurity, you're not really there. You've got to keep digging till you get down to the fear, doubt, or insecurity. I guess the caveat I put there is Sonia's great point. I've gone very much into that sort of transformational coaching mode this morning. I'm thinking about my own coaching that I have with my coach and the coaching I do. But Sonia's right, there's absolutely that more transactional coaching where you don't need to get to fear, doubt, or insecurity, just need to help somebody do a good presentation or deliver a report at the end of the week. But really, when you're getting into the juicy stuff, like if you're not— and we see this with new coaches a lot— they will do the Okay, and when do you think you can do that by? And have you— let's help you get a plan in place. And it's all— and I'm like, get, get under it, rip the surface off this, peel the layers of the onion back. There are many metaphors here. And, and as Mike would say, get to the fear, the doubt, or the insecurity. And so that, that sort of tongue-in-cheek that you said about sort of pay the lady or lose weight does come into, you know, we talked about monkeys and we haven't explicitly mentioned the Chimp Paradox, but of course the chimp, Dr. Steve Peters, it— the chimp basically wants to be fed and stay alive and have sex. Um, they are the core human drives. So there's so much truth in that, tongue-in-cheek, isn't there? Is that we need money to survive and have a roof over our head, meet our needs. It's all about meeting our, our needs. So, um, yes, I've now forgotten your original question of asking for 4 things, but I felt like that fear, doubt, or insecurity is something you're really kind of, uh, that more transformational coaching, looking for.
Leanne ElliottThinking back to what Julie said before as well, you know, she said that the, you know, the main difference between coaches and mentors is that that coaches are paid and mentors aren't. So if mentors typically aren't paid, we had to ask, why bother being a mentor? Is it just altruism?
Julie MeyerWe see as mentors, uh, both Jimmy and myself, our, you know, sort of Gen Z younger mentees that are coming to us and asking us for questions in our relationship. We're able to, you know, if you're, if you're thinking your outcome is actually learning a new skill, wow, we learn a lot. We learn a lot about TikTok. We learn a lot about how the evolution of Gen Z's perspective on social justice, on issues related to diversity, equity, inclusion. You know, we learn so much from our mentees that we can bring into our work because we're not Gen Z. I won't say which gen I am, but it's definitely not Z. So that's a benefit for us. So I think you get 2 things. One, Ali, your experience, you get this feeling of feeling really great. In being able to have these relationships. And then if you're working in the professional environment, oftentimes you're learning new skills and a perspective that you can bring into your work, especially if you're, you know, in consumer marketing or anything like that. Everybody's looking, you know, thinking about what younger consumers care about.
Leanne ElliottI feel like the transfer of value is pretty clear with, with coaching coaches, um, you know, get paid, although not always. We do have pro bono coaching in certain, certain areas and situations. Um, but the point is the coach is getting the full value add, whereas mentorship sounds a bit more like a mutual exchange of, of this value. And I guess we, you know, we've heard that in, in corporate as well, like pairing a boomer with a, a millennial, for example, in kind of a mutual mentoring relationship. And I think as well, it also seems to inform how mentoring and coaching is embedded within an organisation. You know, this mentoring is about helping others, supporting peers and managers, uh, you know, contributing to onboarding of new employees perhaps. but it seems rooted in this more direct transfer of knowledge and experience. And as Julie explains, the new era of mentoring is moving away from the leader necessarily being the mentor, and rather mentoring being the responsibility of everyone in the organization.
Julie MeyerUm, I think that's a great question, because obviously, as a, you know, as a leader, you cannot do that. But I think really delegating to, uh, to, you know, continue to delegate all the way through the organization, that it becomes a responsibility responsibility of everybody in the organization. And again, what we talked about, Augmentoring is not just about mentor, mentee, I'm senior, you're junior, I know, you don't. You know, pairing people up to be able to really, you know, connect with each other and help each other grow to their potential. How do they both continue to grow? So I think making sure that mentoring is a responsibility of everybody in the organization, and it's just part of the culture. It's just part of what you do. And again, making sure that that priority is set and people are setting time up for it. But I have to be honest, it's easier said than done because even though I obviously care deeply about mentoring, I run a mentoring podcast, I talk a lot about mentoring, you know, we are a busy bunch of bees over at Eat Well Global, and it is hard for us to make time for it as well. But we do try to really create the culture of caring deeply about each other and helping each other grow to our potential.
Leanne ElliottIt could also be argued that we're actually seeing the opposite when it comes to coaching in, in the organization, in terms of, of, you know, the idea of leader as coach. It's become much more, more common in organizational psychology and business, and for good reason. I was reading some research by Gallup that estimates the cost of poor management and the related productivity costs in the US alone cost between $980 billion and 1.2 trillion per year. And globally, that's thought to be about 7 trillion. That's numbers I can't even understand. No.
Al ElliottThere was, there was some weird thing on, I saw on YouTube saying that a million seconds is thir— a million seconds is 32 minutes. A billion seconds is 32 years, and a trillion seconds is like 32,000 years or something like that. It was, it was incredible. So, yeah. It's, it's, it's more money than, than I think I'll see in my lifetime.
Leanne ElliottIt's quite, it's quite a lot. It's quite a lot. Um, so I think, you know, what, what's interesting is that, um, you know, there's this, this leader as coach has come around because there's many elements of coaching that can translate into really effective leadership. I mean, goal setting, for example, you know, often coaches will work with their coachee to set goals, to monitor them, to evaluate them, you know, and that all drives their personal development. If we apply that to performance development in a, in a work setting, Research has shown that employees who managers involve them in the goal setting, so the employees are involved in that process of setting their own performance goals, they're 4 times more likely to be engaged employees, which we know is a massive problem in the world at the minute with quiet quitting.
Al ElliottYet only 30% of employees actually experience this process of setting goals in, in partnership with their So what's interesting about Paulwyn, the lady who's, who's introducing the coaching platform that is augmented by AI, is that she's had lots of experience in some quite cool companies. So she worked at Canva before this. And the culture at Canva was quite interesting. They were definitely coaching-led.
Paul WynneSaying earlier, that's where I got introduced to coaching. So at Canva, there's an internal coaching team who support everyone who is interested in receiving coaching. So they are professional coaches from various backgrounds, but they're embedded within the company, and they help the teams. I believe Atlassian has coaching as well. When I was there, I don't know if it was as prevalent, but I believe they do have that now, and it might be aimed more at people in leadership positions, more exec coaching type of coaching rather than available to everybody who wants it. The one difference there was at Canva, managers are referred to as coaches and are encouraged to use coaching principles in management, which I thought was really great because it shifts the responsibility or it shifts the lens through which you view management from being something that is, I'm just keeping track of whether people are performing and getting things done, to one where you're really invested in the person's growth and you're really, um, you want to deliver that personalized growth experience to each of your team members. So that shift was really, really cool and nice in Canva.
Al ElliottSo Pauline also worked at Atlassian before that. Here's her experience at Atlassian.
Paul WynneWell, I don't know Scott and Mike that well. I've met them, I've like had chats with them, but I don't know them very well. But the first thing I'll say is that they are so down to earth. They have no pretensions at all. They are so approachable. So there was no reason for anyone to have feelings about the fact that, you know, Mike and Scott are overnight billionaires or— I mean, they've been billionaires for a while. There was very little of that, none of that that I noticed, and certainly nothing from my side at all because of the fact that they are so friendly, so approachable. But more than that, they are incredibly smart people who are also humble, and that's quite rare. And I loved the fact that they were like that. And in terms of people and culture, the difference— and yeah, going back to your point of at IPO, I believe— I'm not sure if I'm exactly right, but I believe that Scott and Mike together had over 60% of the company, which is quite unusual. Generally for venture-backed companies at IPO time, it's quite unusual for the founders to have that much equity. To be totally honest, there's very little difference between Atlassian and Canva in terms of culture. Culture— there are some differences, but both companies were incredibly fun to work at. They had as much as possible a flat hierarchy, so you could approach anyone and speak to anyone about anything that you had. There were small differences in how efficient people were in getting things moving, and I think that's more to do with the size of the companies rather than anything else.
Leanne ElliottPauline really showcasing there how coaching is becoming part of our leadership practices and the impact of that, about $40 billion, didn't it? So, not bad.
Al ElliottIt was more like $80 billion.
Leanne ElliottWas it? Oh, well, then, then there you go. So, now we've talked about what mentoring and coaching is, the differences between them, and the similarities. How can you find a mentor? or a coach. We asked Julie, what's the best and perhaps worst way to find a mentor?
Julie MeyerThis is such a great question. So as part of Augmenters, we have 8 principles, and one is search. And we really believe, uh, really doing a deep dive search on somebody that you would like to be your mentor, which actually really starts at the first principle, which is vision. What do you want to accomplish? If you just reach out to somebody and see that they are really successful and make a lot of money, and that's what you want, and you just reach out to them, that's quite— that vision can be quite shallow. So really setting your vision, knowing what you want to get out of a mentoring relationship, doing the real search, who is the right person? And then do your homework. What do they care about? What are they posting on LinkedIn? What can you bring to the relationship so that when you do approach them, it's from a position of respect, of mutual admiration, and hopefully creating a mutually beneficial relationship. Because our belief is that all augmenting relationships benefit both the mentor and the mentee, and they create this evolution, this evolution of the relationship. So just reaching out cold, hey, you're super successful, will you be my mentor? That's not going to get you anywhere.
Leanne ElliottFor more advice and information on mentoring, we'll leave Julie's contact details in the show notes so you can get in touch. So we talk a lot about the value of coaching on the podcast, and particularly the value it can offer for, for leaders to be coached. But as we know, finding the right coach is really important to the success of that coaching relationship. So we asked Sonia and Lucy, what's the best way to find a coach?
Lucy MullinsIt's very tempting. Our human nature is to want to be around people that are similar to us often. Maybe they look or sound like us or have similar backgrounds. And actually, for a lot of people, if you look at your friendship groups, um, they tend to be quite similar people to you. So I think you want to go the opposite of that and choose someone that you wouldn't necessarily be friends with. Even somebody you don't like is quite good. Somebody that you can be vulnerable with though, so not somebody you feel like you need to impress. So I think the ability to be vulnerable with this person, that they will make you feel safe and you don't feel like, oh, I kind of want to impress them a bit or show off in any way, is bad because you need to absolutely let your guard down to get the very best out of coaching. You know, somebody, somebody that is going to challenge your way of thinking, that maybe makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable. I always say to our coaches in training, at the end when they reflect and we go in and do our observed reflections, I say, how did you feel when you were doing that coaching session? And if they say, yes, good, yes, I felt really good, quite comfortable, like, that's not okay. You need to feel uncomfortable as a coach, actually, all of the time. And I challenge myself, am I getting a bit too cozy with this person? Do I actually really like this person? It's becoming a bit more of a chat. Or am I constantly pushing where necessary and asking questions that are difficult and going to make that person uncomfortable? And it's not something we do in normal conversations. generally is to make people feel uncomfortable. And so I think you want to make sure you've got a coach that has got those strong boundaries, can hold you safely, but can absolutely give you, uh, what they call the loving boot. So it's done with empathy and compassion and kindness, but it's tough. Like, you're not going to like this. So I sometimes call myself like a Harley Quinn type cheerleader. Like, I'm going to be there for you, but it might, might hurt along the way. This is not going to be a cozy, a cozy cup of tea. kind of chat. It's going to be difficult, I'm going to make you work hard. So I think that's, that's certainly what I'm looking for in a coach. But equally, I think when you, when you decide you need a coach, really think about what it, what it is you want and what you're going through at that time. Because you're having a really difficult time emotionally, maybe you don't want somebody who's going to be absolutely kick-ass the whole time. You need somebody who's going to offer a little bit more compassion and, and support along the way.
Sonia ShellardAnd, Al, I think that's why they come to us at Ride the Wave, because we've got probably the most, or certainly one of the most diverse community of coaches. So we have a lot of people come to us and we talk to them and we listen, and then we say, well, look, we've got such a range of coaches here. I'm gonna have a chat with these 2. They'll be very different, but they might be probably someone you won't find out in the marketplace easily, because it is difficult to find the right coach. It is hard. You don't know what you're choosing. Um, so we have what we call a chemistry call. And we strongly encourage that. So you might— we would, for example, be this sort of helper in helping shortlist, give people to say, go and have a little chat with them. We suggest a 30-minute chemistry call and see, because as Lucy said, we do want challenge to be there, but we need you to feel comfortable, and the relationship does matter. So it does matter that you feel safe with that person and that you feel understood, and then you might go into that sort of challenge and the vulnerability piece. But the initial bit means high support, and safety with the coach.
Al ElliottOne of the downsides of coaching is that anyone can say, I'm a coach. And so you, so you say, right, I'm, I've set myself up as a coach. Whereas if you go to someone like Ride the Wave, there are other, other organizations, but Ride the Wave's our favorite. Then they're gonna find you an accredited coach. That's someone who's actually gone through the process. So I asked Sonia this, can anyone become a coach?
Sonia ShellardYes, they can. So it's totally nonregulated. And anyone can, of course, say they're a coach. Um, now the first thing I ever do is I go immediately to look at where were you trained? Number one, where were you trained? It's just like you can't be a coach unless you've been trained. Um, so what— and what was the quality of the training? And then for me, there is a link to the quality of the training. So which body, which professional body, or sort of authenticated that training? Where's the quality stamp? So was it accredited training? And then did you go further? And particularly if you are an external coach, and this is where it's really important, and people are buying your services, are you individually accredited to show you really have taken your profession seriously? You really have committed to supervision, which is really important. You've committed to continuous professional development, self-reflection. You're with a body of people where you keep growing. The thing about a coach's role, it's not stagnant. It has to develop. It has to evolve because we're operating in a changing world. So for me, unless you show evidence that you are not doing what you were doing a year ago, 2 years ago, 3 years ago—
Leanne ElliottPauline also has a view on this, and for her, she finds the fact that coaching isn't highly regulated is actually one of the things that makes coaching so special.
Paul WynneI love that coaching is not so regulated because, because of that fact that if something works for you, that's amazing, and it works for you, who cares whether it's objectively, um, correct or not? And also, we know for a fact that scientific literature and research often is not necessarily keeping up with the realities of modern life and the realities of how our brains work and how we think and how we adapt. So in that sense, I like that coaching isn't hugely regulated. But I also see the problem of as an industry grows and grows and grows and it is growing, it's one of the fastest growing industries in the world. I can see how it can cause harm when— if it is applied in a way that is not well thought out or is, um, ignorant even. So I do see the dangers of that. So it's tricky, like, like with any— I, I have this theory that life is all about balance, and I believe it's the case here as well, where it's about finding that balance where it's okay to experiment, it's okay to be out there, it's okay to be crazy, and Esoteric. If it works for you, it's great.
Leanne ElliottBut what happens if even after all the due diligence you pick the wrong coach? Here's Lucy.
Lucy MullinsSo if you've chosen to work with somebody and you're a couple of sessions in and you're thinking this doesn't work, I always say to people, you know, definitely feed that back to your coach. You know, definitely say like, I'm not quite sure, um, this is working, can we, can we change it up a little bit? And have a very open and honest dialogue because actually if you're with a coach, to go back to our earlier point, that's well-trained and accredited, they will be in supervision, they'll take that to supervision, they'll reflect on it, they'll have done the work on themselves, so they shouldn't get defensive. If they start getting defensive and blaming you and saying, oh, well, you turn up late and you're not a very good coachee, you immediately know you're in the wrong hands. A good coach will say, okay, okay, that's interesting, tell me more about that, when do you sense that, have you sensed this with anybody else? They'll start coaching you on that very topic that you said, I'm not feeling this. So definitely feed it back, because it may just be a simple thing that's easier to come unstuck, or it may be that they said something which absolutely hits into your core beliefs, that is against your core beliefs. They may have dropped something in which is totally misogynistic or something where you think, I, you know, in which case it's okay to break off that coaching relationship as a paying client and say, you know what, this isn't working for me, or I've got enough from it. And you don't have to tell them exactly why if you don't feel comfortable. But in the spirit of honesty and feedback, you can say, look, there's a couple of things here that don't work for me. And hopefully, as a good coach, will reflect, and they may learn from that. And then you can go and find another coach. But I think you have to trust your, your instinct of, can you remain being vulnerable and comfortable and feel really held in that space? And you'll know when you're in that space if you feel like that.
Al ElliottSo we've looked at how you find a coach, we've looked at what happens if you think you've picked the wrong coach. Let's go a little bit more into Polwyn's world, where she thinks, and as I do, that AI and tech can massively improve the way that coaches actually administer the coaching. So I asked her a bit more about where she came up with this idea.
Paul WynneLooking at the kind of tools that coaches were often using, which was pen and paper, a patchwork of different tools to deliver that process of coaching, I was really inspired to start building something that could be the tool that they use in their day-to-day. So it's not like we don't want to build an admin tool or a marketplace for coaches, but we really want to build a tool that they can live in, so to speak, and deliver their coaching, whatever form of coaching that might be. So it's a very fuzzy problem. And as an engineer with, you know, that engineering thinking, it's a very complex and very intricate problem. So I find it very interesting and very exciting to work on.
Al ElliottSo I find this really interesting because I'm a really big AI geek. So I asked Paulwin, do you think that AI could potentially replace coaching Yeah, I think it could potentially replace—
Paul WynneAI in some form could potentially replace some elements of coaching. But going a bit deeper into what a coaching session generally looks like, there is a lot of active listening in a coaching session on the part of the coach. There is— often they use silence as a way of encouraging their clients to think deeper and go deeper within themselves. Um, and they employ different techniques like active listening, using silence and pauses and Socratic questioning, uh, which is a bit like— when I talk about it, it does sound a bit fuzzy and it's very qualitative, it's very sort of textural. And I have yet to see AI, ChatGPT or Google's Bard or any other like AI tool, um, get to that level of sophistication in human connection and empathy. So I think there may be elements of coaching, like intervening in certain moments, perhaps, that AI could start doing. But I think that, that coaching session, to me, is still a sacred space where AI will, for a while, I think, play a supporting role.
Leanne ElliottBut, you know, maybe Pauline would say that, you know, given her mission of what she's doing at Medu. So, you know, what do our coaches think? Is AI a a threat? Here's Lucy.
Lucy MullinsI think there's definitely a role for technology and to allow this to happen at scale. I think people that are panicking— there's a brilliant podcast actually by the Association for Coaching on technology and AI and coaching— um, people that are panicking about, oh, it's going to take our jobs, it's absolutely not. But it is going to help us reach more people at scale and some of this transactional coaching. And actually, Sonia and I actually do this with this 10-question activity that I mentioned. We have 10 questions and we read them out to the group when we work with groups, and without them answering, they just write down their answers. So that's absolutely— you could just program that in, and that is a chatbot asking questions. And people always come out at the end of that. We say, how confident do you feel about moving forward on a scale of 1 to 10 about taking the next action? And we did one yesterday with a group, and most people in the room put 8, 9, or 10 in terms of they spent 10 minutes answering questions on their own, we were effectively reading it out like a chatbot. So I think that transactional piece, great. But there's absolutely no doubt that the icing and the cherry and all the accoutrements go on the cake when you put a human in there who can listen. And the mirror neurons that fire up when you're working with somebody and the endorphins that flow when you're in that conversation with a human cannot be replicated by technology.
Sonia ShellardI think it's fantastic. I think it actually is about our whole values, which is accessibility. So, you know, it is still very difficult to be able to access a coach across the world because usually it takes money. We do a lot of work at Ride the Wave on pro bono coaching, so we do try and break down that with our social impact scholarships and the pro bono coaching we do. So we try to break that down, but we're talking about a tiny drop in a massive ocean. So the thought, exactly as Lucy said, that people can go and do some work on a much more cost-effective way to solve a lot of everyday life problems would be amazing. We'd be delighted to contribute to that in any way we can. We believe there are enough resources in the world, they're just not in the right hands. So this is a lovely example of making it more widespread. But also, as Lucy said, that's great, but we do know there's many, many things that we need to go away, and it might be really useful. So as a coach, I'm thinking. It'd be wonderful if I say, right, perhaps before we start, to make good use of your time, perhaps go and do a little bit of preparation using something AI-wise to get your thinking ready. Bring it to me. I would love to know what did you, what did you make of it? Where did you go? So almost scaffold their thinking a little bit before they come and deal with the human being. Human connection is massive, and we know that from the lockdowns that we've had. Even if everything was made available to us and we moved so swiftly to do a lot of that, didn't we? But we still miss that human connection and we wanted it. So no threat, absolutely brilliant advance. Very excited to see where it goes. Also slightly scary having just seen the film M3GAN.
Paul WynneUm, thank you.
Sonia ShellardIf you haven't seen it, go and see it. But, um, that's a different topic. I don't think coaches will be threatened by M3GAN. She's basically the new version of Chucky, if you remember that old film. But anyway, um, exciting area of AI to explore.
Leanne ElliottI don't think there's any need to bring Chucky into this, Sonia. Nightmares. Um, but yeah, no, I, and I was, I was teasing you before, Paul Wynne, um, the more I hear about, about Medu and, and, you know, its influence in the coaching space, the more I'm excited. And, and as Sonia said there, just the influence of technology in general on coaching and maybe potentially mentoring and therapy. Um, I think it's really exciting. So let's hear some more from Paul Wynne. about the Medu platform, its development, and what she hopes will be its future legacy.
Paul WynneI should start by saying we are a 1-year-old product, so very early in the, in the journey of the product itself, and we're launching a public beta next month. So the first, the first experience that a coach has is you can add your coachee and you have this shared journal. So the shared journaling is kind of at the core of Middu, where you are both documenting your discussions. And that can be during the discussion, it can be outside of the discussion in between your sessions, or it can be at the end of a session, you make some time to document what you've discussed. So, but the idea is that we want to recreate that share, that safe space that you have with your coachee. It's recreated in a tool, and that's your shared journal. So that's where you capture your coaching discussions. You can capture your goals. You can capture the different steps that you want to take towards those goals, as well as track progress. So now that there's all this rich data in there, we can then visualize this in different ways. So we can show you how you're tracking towards your goals, and then we can allow you to drill deeper, navigate your shared journal in, in different ways so that you understand things like, oh, my mood is up and down when I talk about these things. Why is that? So it allows you to introspect a bit more. It allows your coach and yourself to work together to understand what is going on better. And then of course we have a mind map feature which is generated with the help of AI, which shows you the different themes of your conversations, how they're evolving how they are connected to different things you've discussed, as well as how they're connected to your goals and your progress. On top of all of this, for coaches, we have some special features which include a place for you to create, create a system around your coaching. So if you've got certain tools, activities, or resources that you tend to use regularly in your coaching, you can collect all of them together in the one place, and then you can choose to drip-feed that to your coachees at appropriate times into that shared space. I would love for Medoo to be known for as the go-to tool for anyone who is applying coaching principles to deliver coaching in, in any form. So that could be a coach, so that could be an exec coach or a leadership coach working with C-level people, that could be a life coach working with someone who's going through a tough patch in their life, It could even be a therapist who is applying essentially coaching principles to help, again, people deal with trauma or other aspects of their past. It could also be managers who are applying, interested in applying coaching principles to developing their people. That last one in particular, we think, is going to be a bit of a trend because the more the younger generation joins the workforce, with Gen Z joining the workforce, their expectations of work and management are quite different. There is higher expectation of that personalized experience of career growth and personal growth. And we also know that managers have a huge impact on people's mental health. So we want to be the tool that puts coaching techniques, coaching tools, and coaching principles in the hands of all of these people who care for people people's mental health, and we want to strengthen these relationships. We want to augment these relationships through the use of technology so that people can have that holistic, um, approach to their growth, their inner growth, and applied to any aspect of their life.
Leanne ElliottI think Medu sounds like a really cool platform that I would want to use both as a coach and a coachee. I think it sounds fantastic. If you would like more information on Medu, head over to medu.life. That's M-E-D-U. D-O-O, and you can join the launch waitlist.
Al ElliottLovely. So let's talk about the science business case. Is there a business case in terms of actual science for coaching?
Leanne ElliottYeah, there is. And I mean, if you're still not convinced at this point, I mean, I can— I could go on about how coaching psychology is recognized as a specialism in, in the global psychology community, including the British Psychological Society. There are science-backed models spanning all different types of, of coaching, from behavioral coaching to positive psychology coaching, goal setting. Um, but if you're really a skeptic, it's probably neuroscience research that might convince you. So neuroscience research has shown us that coaching helps us to develop positive new neural networks, respond more calmly to stress, make choices more easily, and also access much more of our creativity. Um, and yeah, so So basically, our brain chemistry, structure of our brain is changing as we go through this coaching intervention.
Al ElliottSo that's the science case for it. But what about the business case for it? Let's hear from Lucy.
Lucy MullinsMost of your teams are working at less than 40% of their capacity. What would you do to be able to double that? Like, what would you pay to be able to at least double it?
Sonia ShellardYeah, another way to think of it is like car service. You know, you keep driving your car, and it might absolutely be, um, on the road still. However, it's fuel consumption is shot and it's costing you an awful lot to keep refueling it, hey, take it in for the car service, pay for the car service, the coaching, and guess what? Your car now drives superbly and takes and uses half the fuel it ever used. I mean, it's a no-brainer. £300 for the service and I'm going to save £3,000 in fuel every year. So, um, you know, there are measures of, uh, return on investment and we can work with our clients on all sorts of things. We try and find out what are some of the problems. It might be about retention. The cost of employing someone new to a business is huge, so therefore they want to keep talent. It costs a lot to lose someone, but also it costs an awful lot to keep someone who shouldn't be in the business, is causing an awful lot of problems. Let us come in and work with that. So that's where the team coaching, group coaching, individual coaching comes in. and all that dysfunction. So there's lots of things, and sometimes there's just a return on expectation. What is it you want to see change? How will the coaching enable that? Even if the tangible financials aren't that clear, you know, as marketeers we could pretend they are, but sometimes they're not always that measurable. But the return on expectation can always be measured.
Leanne ElliottThat's what I love about Sonia and Lucy. They're just so honest and transparent, and, and yes, you know, state fact, this is the financial return you will probably see in terms of your effectiveness as a leader. But also, it might just make you feel a whole lot better, and things will start to feel a bit more easy in your life. And to be honest, I don't think you can put a monetary value on, on that.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. So, and ultimately, you know what, if you don't know, just try it. This is what Lucy said.
Lucy MullinsWhy not try it? You know, if you've got a toothache, you call a dentist. If your skin looks a bit bit saggy, you go and get a facial. Um, if your thinking's a bit clouded, why wouldn't you go to a coach? Like, it's just not in the common everyday, you know, old black book, is it, of, you know, you've got someone to go to for these different things. Your back hurts, you call your physio. But so, so much of the time our thinking is foggy, or we feel a little bit lost or directionless or lacking motivation, and it's, it's not enough to go, oh, I'm going to go to my GP, I don't need a therapist or a counsellor for this. But actually, someone to help lift me, elevate me. So try it out. And if, you know, if budget is a problem, we looked at the ICF study last year that came out on access to coaching, and a lot of people would like coaching, but they find that budget is a problem. Come and talk to us at Ride the Wave, because we have lots of coaches who are qualified, not yet accredited, who offer discounted rates of coaching. And then the next step beyond that is if you're working for a charity or social impact organisation, and there's really no budget at all, we do have the pro bono coaching. So, so come and check us out. We'd love to give everyone a little taster of coaching.
Leanne ElliottAnd I am actually a coach on the, um, the, um, social impact programme with Ride the Wave. So if that is you, you might, you might come and, come and talk to me, which would be lovely. Thank you so much to all of our incredible guests today. I know we've given you a lot to digest and a lot to think about, but hopefully now you are equipped to know what kind of support you need, where to find it, how to know if it's good, and the returns on, on your investment. that you're likely to see. Thank you to Julie Mayer from Augmenters, Lucy and Sonia from Ride the Wave, and of course Paul Wynne from Medu. We will leave all of their contact details in the show notes.
Al ElliottYeah, fantastic guests, a lot to take in. Um, and hopefully you now know the difference between mentoring, between coaching. You also now know what you're looking for. Is it transactional? Is it transformational coaching?
Leanne ElliottAnd that's what Al and I are qualified to do. We see huge value in mentoring as well. And of of course, more therapeutic practices. If you would like some advice on the type of support that, that we offer, or perhaps where you can find a coach that will serve your needs, do get in touch with us either through LinkedIn, or we always leave our email address in the show notes. Bet you didn't notice that before, did you? Did you even read the show notes?
Al ElliottYeah, we spent hours on those bloody show notes. Anyway, so we'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us and stay safe. I, I, I never say that.
Leanne ElliottWhat are we talking about next week? Do we know?
Al ElliottSo next week, we are answering the question. I'm chuckling because I'm not quite sure whether to beep this out or not. But yeah. Are you an asshole boss? Do you have an asshole boss? So basically, it's all about asshole bosses.
Leanne ElliottRule 1 of life and leadership. Don't be a dick.
Al ElliottSo that's what we're talking about next week with 3 fabulous guests. Make sure you're subscribed. If you're not subscribed, you're gonna miss out on that. And probably, I'm gonna count on up exactly how many times we say asshole. And I'm going to include the Americans. We've got some Canadians, so they're going to say asshole. So I'm going to include that. But—
Leanne ElliottMaybe even leave this one, particularly if you do have an asshole boss, leave this one till Friday.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd play a little responsible drinking game. Maybe a very weak gin and tonic and take a sip every time you hear the word asshole. Just, you know, unwind from your, from your week.
Al ElliottSo there's something to look forward to on Friday. You You can play with asshole. We will see you next week. Bye for now. Bye!
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