Episode 42 · 7 June 2023 · 1:14:05

How to Make Remote Working Work

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The great remote vs office debate begins
panel interview#remote-work #office #hybrid-work #leadership
Meet Team Remote: Ross Simmonds & Bethany Samson
intro#remote-work #people-operations #hr #investors-in-people
Greenwashing, remote washing, and the data on hybrid
panel interview#greenwashing #remote-washing #hybrid-work #data
Ross's first internet memory and the evolution of work
panel interview#internet-history #work-evolution #remote-work
Why remote is the preferred choice for people-first teams
panel interview#remote-work #people-first #team-culture
The massive opportunity for small businesses
panel interview#small-business #remote-work #opportunity
Work-life balance: the good, the bad, and the 'bing!'
panel interview#work-life-balance #remote-work #burnout
Shades of gray — why one-size-fits-all is the worst of all worlds
panel interview#flexibility #one-size-fits-all #workplace-culture
Are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
panel interview#psychology #status #behavioral-science
Ross's hiring secret: record yourself first
panel interview#hiring #recruitment #remote-work #self-awareness

Show notes

Remote Work: The Verdict Is In — with Ross Simmonds & Bethany Samson

Episode 42 — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) go head-to-head over the future of work. Is remote the ultimate winner, or is the office fight back real? In part one of a two-part series, they're joined by Team Remote: Ross Simmonds, CEO of the 100% remote content agency Foundation, and Bethany Samson, People Director at Investors in People and a finalist for People Leader of the Year.

From productivity myths to the dirty secret of office nostalgia, this episode unpacks what remote work actually does to our wellbeing, our culture, and our careers — and why "going back to normal" might be the riskiest move of all.

The Big Debate

Is remote work actually better for productivity? The research says yes — but not for the reasons you might think. Al and Leanne dig into the UC Berkeley Haas School of Business findings on synchronous vs asynchronous work, and why the benefits of remote go far beyond "no commute."

Ross makes the case that remote-first companies are more competitive because they hire from a global talent pool, not a 10-mile radius. Beth counters with the reality of legacy organisations — where cultural norms built over decades don't translate easily to a distributed model.

And on work-life balance? Al's honest confession about the 7am "bing!" might sound familiar. The verdict? Remote work amplifies whatever you already had — good boundaries get better, blurry ones get blurrier.

The 10 Reasons Remote Work Works

Al counts down his top 10 reasons remote work wins — from productivity data to the freedom to design your day around your life, not the other way around. Reason #9? Remote work replaces the performative "busyness" culture with something far more valuable: actual output.

But it's not all sunshine. The trio get honest about the loneliness, the difficulty of building culture from scratch, and why "hybrid" can sometimes feel like the worst of all worlds — the commute with none of the connection.

Intentional Leadership

Beth's big message: remote culture doesn't happen by accident. It requires intentionality in three key areas:

Trust — the foundation of any remote culture. If you don't trust your team, no tool will fix it.
Connection — collaboration in remote settings needs deliberate design, not hope.
Culture — you have a culture whether you know it or not. The question is whether you're shaping it or it's shaping you.

Ross shares his practical toolkit, including a colour-coded calendar that separates culture-driving time from deep work — and why data is his best friend when it comes to making calculated bets on what works.

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform. Every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

RossNice.

Al ElliottCheck out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

RossBut for me, even once in the office, I struggled with many elements of in-person work that didn't allow me to actually create my best work.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, which is the audio destination for business professionals. Well done!

Al ElliottGot it right this week.

Leanne ElliottYou did. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al and I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.

Al ElliottTalking of workplace cultures, I think one of the biggest like argument that seems to be raging on at the moment in terms of workplace culture is, do we want everyone to go back to the office? Does everyone want to work remotely?

Leanne ElliottYeah, it's almost like, wait a minute, guys, before we get onto the culture, where's the workplace starting?

Al ElliottTrue, that's 50% of workplace culture, isn't it? The workplace. So that's a really good point. So what we decided to do was we're going to have a 2-part miniseries. Today, in this episode, we're going to be talking and fighting for the arguments for remote working. And which we are very bullish on because we've been remote working for a long time. We'll talk about that in a second. And then next week we're going to be arguing from the opposite end of it and saying, is the office actually dead or should we all be going back to the office?

BethYeah.

Leanne ElliottIs the office making a comeback? I'll be honest, I didn't think it was until we went to Clerkenwell Design Week last week, spoke to some really interesting experts. And even now I'm like, huh, maybe, but then maybe not because, you know, remote work is just better, isn't it?

Al ElliottWell, we think it is. And the reason we think it is, is because we've been doing remote work now for about 10 years. We started off, we left the UK about 10 years ago. And so we've been literally working remotely, not from home, but working from anywhere from, I don't know, Thailand, Myanmar, um, all over Europe, all over Europe, Lithuania, Australia, New Zealand. So we literally have been working remotely. So we obviously are used to it. We're happy with it. It makes us happy. But there are people who've been only been doing it for 2 or 3 years. And as we'll find out next week, we're finding people who are vehemently against it, talking people being vehemently against it. Amazon, I think it was this week I saw the news that they are recalling, mandatory recalling workers back to the office. And I think there was some kind of riots or demonstration outside the headquarters, basically saying, we don't want to do it. So we can see their point.

Leanne ElliottWe can see their point. We've been championing remote work as a lifestyle for a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very long time. So, I think the thing is, one thing that I would say to frame this episode, if you are team office, and don't worry, we will be representing team office next week, but if you are team office and you really hate remote work during the pandemic, my only thing would be, you weren't really working remotely. You're working remotely during a global pandemic. You know, we found it really shit working remotely during, during the pandemic. It was rubbish, and we'd already been doing it for ages. Um, so yeah, open minds, please. But at the same time, this episode is all about how Remote working is the future, it is here to stay, it is the winner of the competition.

Al ElliottLove it. So before Leanne introduces the guests then, let's just take a second, little word, as they say in America, a word from our sponsors.

Leanne ElliottOur first guest representing Team Remote is Ross Simmons. Ross is CEO at Foundation, a content marketing agency that combines data and creativity to develop and serve ambitious B2B brands. He also operates 100% remotely. He's also the host of Create Like the Greats, our sibling show on the HubSpot Podcast Network. Let's meet Ross.

RossYeah, so my name is Ross Simmons. I'm the host of Create Like the Greats, which is a podcast where we go into the inner workings of how some of the greatest creators of all time have done or do what they do. In addition to that, on a regular basis, I'm the CEO and founder of Foundation Marketing, which is a content marketing firm that works with some of the biggest names in SaaS. So we work with a wide range of different companies in the world of SaaS on their content marketing strategies. I'm a father of 3. I'm a big fan of the Philadelphia Eagles. I love a great coffee. And I'm super excited to be on Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture. I'm so excited to be here. So thank you for having me on.

Al ElliottOur second guest is Bethany Sampson. Beth is People Director at Investors in People. That's a community interest company which is calling for organizational change to put people first. Now, If you're from the UK, there's a very good chance you'll have heard of Investors in People. You probably even know what the logo looks like. But for the benefit of the US, this is a big company. It's a big deal in the UK, all campaigning to put people first. We had the pleasure of meeting Beth at the Water Cooler Conference, where she was one of the speakers and the panel facilitators— facilitators, easy for me to say— and also our last guest. If you're listening, Beth, do you remember that very strange conversation we had with a fella who just turned up, and we won't go into it, but it was all very odd. Beth will know. Let's go meet Beth and hear more about Investors in People.

BethInvestors in People is probably most recognised by our laurel. You might have seen it on letters from DVLA, from the bank. And what we do is we accredit businesses for their people and wellbeing and apprenticeship practice, which means if they're doing great work, we can recognise that for them with different levels up to platinum. But mainly what we're focused on doing, our purpose and reason for existing, is to make work better, to make work more enjoyable, better for wellbeing and also to give better opportunities to young people entering the workplace.

Leanne ElliottAnd by the way, Investors in People is also fully remote.

Al ElliottInteresting. So the pro-remote team is strong. It's about to go down. Is that what the cool kids say?

Leanne ElliottYeah, do the little— do the sound.

Al ElliottWhat sound?

Leanne ElliottBa ba ba ba!

Al ElliottSo if you were listening last week, you will know that there wasn't enough time to do the news roundup. Good news, it's back this week.

Leanne ElliottCue the jingle.

Al ElliottOkay, Leah, what you got?

Leanne ElliottI've got a word of the week. Greenwashing.

Al ElliottHmm, I think I've heard this before.

Leanne ElliottOh, tell me.

Al ElliottUm, I think I heard it in the context when we're at Clerkenwell. I heard a few people talk about it, and if I've got it right, something to do with you say that you're eco-friendly but actually you're just doing the bare minimum or something.

Leanne ElliottPretty much, yeah. I too heard about it at Clerkenwell. I think it was a big topic of the the, the Design Week, all about environment sustainability. So greenwashing is when an organization spends more time and money on marketing itself as environmentally friendly rather than actually on minimizing its environmental impact. This sits in the same family as wellness washing that we talked about a few weeks ago. So yeah, organizations tend to make very broad sustainability claims without any evidence. They overstate their positive impacts on the environment. They advertise products as eco-friendly, but often the raw material sourced won't be. Basically, they're making a big song and dance about how they're saving the planet, and they probably don't even recycle their water bottles, which they shouldn't have anyway because single-use plastic is no good here.

Al ElliottNo, we won't have that. So basically, fur coat, no knickers. Is that what we're saying?

Leanne ElliottExactly, yeah.

Al ElliottWhat else you got, Leah?

Leanne ElliottWell, when I started reading up on, um, what was it, what's it called, greenwashing. I've got wellness washing in my head. Greenwashing. When I started reading up on that, uh, Nike, Nike, Nike, Nike, I think is the right way. The sports brand?

Al ElliottYes, they make shoes.

Leanne ElliottNike came up very highly in my feed. Um, so apparently earlier this month, I hadn't heard about this until I started to dive into, into greenwashing, uh, but classaction.org reported a proposed class action against Nike that alleges the products in the brand's sustainable clothing collection are not as eco-friendly as advertised. So yeah, apparently there's a 47-page greenwashing lawsuit of charges being brought that Nike has allegedly attempted to capitalize on consumers' preferences for green products and falsely claiming how they're actually putting these, these products together and the materials they're using. Not cool, Nike, not cool. Um, so apparently that lawsuit was filed on the 10th of May, um, and we'll, we'll see how that, that goes for them. Not the first sports brand to be pulled into a people and culture scandal recently, and not the type of press you want, uh, because research is showing us, as we've talked about before, 60% of Gen Z would say they'd avoid applying for jobs with employees that have even a perceived negative impact on the environment. So not a great time, nor a green time for Nike's employer brand.

Al ElliottNice, nicely wrapped up. And what about the last piece there you got, Leanne? By the way, are you going to read the 47-page report on this podcast, or are we going to let people just go and find it?

Leanne ElliottI'll leave a link. I'll leave a link. Yeah, the third bit of research that caught my eye this week was about asynchronous creativity. So I know it is widely thought that working synchronously, so working Working together is better for creativity and ideation, and it's one of the main reasons business leaders cite all the time when calling people back into the office. We need it for our culture, for our creativity, for our collaboration, for ideation, etc., etc. But does working together actually make us more creative? Well, according to new research, it might not be true.

RossHmm.

Leanne ElliottSo Aruna Ranganathan, an associate professor— That's a name.

Al ElliottCan we have that again? Amazing.

Leanne ElliottAruna Ranganathan.

Al ElliottLove it.

Leanne ElliottYeah, it's a really good name.

Al ElliottWriting that down.

Leanne ElliottSo Aruna Ranganathan is Associate Professor of Management and Organizations at the Haas School of Business. H-A-A-S. How do we pronounce that, Al? You did German.

Al ElliottHaas.

Leanne ElliottHaas School of Business at UC Berkeley. And they found while there are benefits for ideation, synchronous work is also stifling a lot of people's creativity. So it studied men and women folk musicians, and it showed that recording musical parts asynchronously— so apart, not together— led to greater creative freedom and therefore greater creativity, particularly for women musicians, while there was no variance amongst, amongst men, which, which is part of the, the point of the research really. So the findings were consistent with the point that in safe communication climates, yes, working together can have a positive impact on creativity, but research has not taken into account the experience of lower-status members of the group, including women and marginalized people. Um, so I think that the headline is, if I want to be skeptical clickbaity about it—

Al ElliottI'd like you to be—

Leanne Elliottcreativity works better in the office if you are a straight Middle-class white male.

Al ElliottWell, there you go. There's the end of the news roundup. We are going to go into our 10 reasons why remote work is the future and everything else can get in the bin. Obviously, just remember that we're arguing for remote work this week and we're arguing for office work next week. So we will be playing that part. So we've got 10 reasons— well, actually, we— I say we because Leanne's written this, the 10 reasons down. But we've got 10 reasons here. We'll go— we'll recap all 10 of them at the end, but let's start off with reason number 1: remote work is preferred.

Leanne ElliottYes, so remote work has been around for some time, since the 1980s in fact, but of course the pandemic completely accelerated that trend and reshaped our professional world. The data shows that we freaking love working remotely. So Buffer's 2022 State of the Remote Work A recent Deloitte report revealed that 61% of people consider it a positive experience to work remotely, and it's encouraging to know that no one said remote work was negative or has been a negative experience for them. So it's all good, Al, there is no bad. And on top of that, 56% said their preference is to be fully remote, 30% said remote first, and only 3% office-based. One point to remote work, please. Let's hear from our guest Ross on his experience with people preferring remote work.

RossI'll take you back into time to my first experience with the internet, and it would have been while I was in university. I kind of was walking through the library. I looked at everyone's computers and I saw that they were all on Facebook all at the same time. And I said, this makes no sense why in school and in class I'm learning about billboards when all of the attention that people actually have is being distributed to social media. So at that time, I immediately went in aggressive at startups in technology and social media and content, and I started RossSimmons.com, and that was my first website that I ran and created. But in parallel to this, after creating content, after running my own, again, even at that time, a small little remote freelance company with myself and a partner, I got to a point where I realized that remote was, in my opinion, the key to actually having the ability to kind of maintain my own level of sanity. I got, shortly after running my own company, brought into a larger agency. And I worked in this agency in-house, and I actually had to show up every single day, and the commute was quite long for me where I had to drive for about 60 minutes each day to get to this office. For me, as somebody who cares deeply about their time, I did the math on how many hours I was spending every year to actually just commute my physical body from home to the office. When I did that math, I started to realize this is a lot of wasted time. I could have bought a place that was a little bit closer. I could have done those things, but for me, even once in the office, I struggled with many elements of in-person work that didn't allow me to actually create my best work, to allow me to reach the pinnacle of excellence in my work. So shortly thereafter, I left that company and I started Foundation, which has been fully remote since 2014, and we have no intentions of ever changing that. We've been fully remote since day one, and the key to that is really just being intentional with recognizing that remote work is different, and with remote work, communication excellence is a necessity rather than a nice-to-have. When you were in the office, it's easy to go and have lunch with your colleagues and peers, or even just say something across the office that the entire company hears within a matter of seconds. But with a remote-first company, you have to set a bar and a level of expectation around what great communication looks like. And then as the leader of the company, you need to match it and meet it every single day.

Leanne ElliottBeth has also observed that remote work was a preferred option of teams that invested in people, and since the pandemic has continued with a fully remote model?

BethYeah, so it's changed significantly for us as an organisation. We did have a model where we had delivery partners across the UK. We've brought all of those in-house, so for the first time we are one entity across the UK for Investors in People. We have also started working from home exclusively. That was triggered by the pandemic, although we always had flexible working before, and we made a judgement that people were happier, more productive, and really loved having that flexibility of being at home. So that's another change. And then for me personally, over the last couple of years, I've been promoted to People Director, which has been fantastic to take a more strategic role, have the opportunity to speak on things like this.

Al ElliottSo remote work is preferred by employees. So number 2 is remote work makes an employer attractive or unattractive. Now, we've talked about the fight for talent before. We've done an entire podcast on it, a couple of podcasts around this. And if you speak to anyone who's recruiting, moment, they will probably tell you that the fight for talent is definitely a problem right now. So one of the biggest things that helps with the fight for talent is employer brand. Now, where you can't offer a whole lot more in terms of money, you can offer it in terms of other benefits. The State of Remote Work 2022, by a company I think it's called Owl Labs, not Al, Owl, found that interest in in-office work dropped by 24%. So despite returning to in-office work, almost 60% of respondents preferred working from home full-time. Interestingly, if an employer said you can no longer work remotely anymore, then about two-thirds of the respondents would begin looking for a job that better supports these priorities, and another 33% would just quit outright. So basically, we're talking about 100% of people who would be affected if you just withdrew any kind of work flexibility. So whilst we've seen the organizations like Amazon, Twitter, UK Civil Service, Starbucks, and all that kind of thing. They have been telling people they have to come back to the office. It's no wonder that the employer brands have been damaged in those companies. Fair enough, Amazon didn't have a brilliant employer brand to start off with, but in some cases has led to litigation. So why are businesses doing this? Is it because they're— it's out of fear? Is it the loss of control? Is this a classic '80s shoulder pad power move, Gordon Gekko style? We asked Russ.

RossI think the biggest challenge that a lot of these larger organizations face is that they have legacy cultural dynamics that are very difficult to let go. So for Foundation, it's easy for us to be pro-remote work, to preach about the benefits of remote work, because we have the infrastructure from day one that was intended to create a culture that was remote-first. If you're an organization that has been around for decades and you have invested millions, sometimes even billions of dollars in infrastructure and buildings and spaces. You have catering teams for your company. You have a yoga instructor on contract for your company. Sometimes these levels of complexity force the hand of leadership to say, yeah, we need people back in the office. We need to make a more hybrid environment because we have sunk so much cost into our actual infrastructure that it would be very difficult for us to move and shift. And sometimes it's really a case of they don't know what they don't know. And I think in many cases, people resort to where their comfort is and remote work is still relatively new. And it's comfortable to say everyone must show up at the office. Everyone must work in their cubicle because that's the way that work has been done for decades. That's the way that work has been done for many, many years, and it's easier to navigate that type of environment. When you look at the current landscape from an economic standpoint as well, there's an additional level of pressure being applied to leaders and managers and directors who are forced to think critically around how can we maximize the ROI of the people that we have. Whether it's right or not, a lot of people believe that they can't get ROI out of their team unless they can see them. And if they can't see them, if they can't watch them, if they can't have that one-to-one interaction, then they feel uncomfortable. They feel a little bit like they don't have their cloak on and that people can see everything, right? And that is, again, a challenge, a bias that is very difficult to shake and overcome. And I believe, as much as I'm a fan of remote work, that a lot of large organizations large companies will be office-first, office-centric, maybe hybrid until I take my last breath on this planet. Like, I think it's going to be the norm still and continue to be the norm for a very long time.

Al ElliottNow, Ross went on to explain that this provides this massive opportunity for small businesses who are pursuing talent. Because if you imagine like huge companies, IBM, the likes, Amazon, they're like juggernauts or like big, like huge big container ships. It takes a long time to turn things around, to turn around, whereas companies of 25, 50, or even 150 employees can just decide, all right, as of Monday, we're going to be trying working remotely. If you, if you're interested in, like, for example, the 4-day workweek, then a lot of the people who did the 4-day workweek, which is an episode we did about 4 or 5 weeks ago, they were talking about they trialed it and they were perfectly happy to turn it around. And everyone else knew that they could cancel at any point in time if it didn't So the point is that if you're a small company, you can implement this pretty quickly. Now, the crux of finding and keeping great customers— we all know this, Business 101— is finding out what the customers want and giving it to them. So it stands to reason that the crux of getting great talent is finding out what they want and giving them that. And what they want seems to be the flexibility to work wherever and whenever they like.

RossThere's a huge upside. There's a huge upside. And the huge upside is that model and the challenges in the legacy infrastructure is putting the organization's wants and biases first versus the employees' wants and biases first. Employees oftentimes, some that are high-quality employees, will want flexibility and autonomy. And if those individuals loved working through the pandemic because they were able to perform at a high level, but they were also able to ensure that they attended every recital that their child had. Those are people who those traditional legacy companies might not ever attract again. They might not be able to recruit them no matter how many hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars they offer. If these individuals value their time and value the ideas and the principles that come with remote work, that's where the smaller companies actually have a chance to find some differentiation. At Foundation, this has been a part of our strategy. When we came to the market, we weren't working with the top SaaS companies in the world, but we knew we wanted to attract some bright minds. We offered fully remote autonomy, et cetera, and we've been able to attract some great talent because of that. I think that is the upside. You increase your actual pool of talent to be exponentially better when you can offer an experience that is remote versus one that is closed door and only one-on-one.

Leanne ElliottIt really is a huge opportunity. And I think what I found somewhat surprising from some of the organizations that I'm looking at on LinkedIn, particularly within, you know, like people are usually connected and they've got little, their little, little business cliques going on. I've been really surprised that they've been like, oh, what, you're going back to the office 3 days? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going to do that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Almost like, oh, well, if they're doing it, then we'll just do that because of that. that's solving the problem, right? Whereas usually small businesses are like The Hunger Games, survival of the fittest. Like, you're doing that, loser, I'm gonna go do this. So I find it surprising almost that the consensus we've come to around going back to the office around a set number of days in the office, um, mandated days in the— I just, I find it really surprising that small businesses aren't being a little bit more forward-thinking. especially those businesses who are, who are crying themselves to sleep at night because they've got so many roles open in their business and they're finding it really hard to attract new talent and they're seeing talent shortages in the market. Well, not only is that going to attract— make you more attractive in your local market, but if you're a remote company, you can hire people from anywhere in the country, anywhere on the continent, anywhere in the world. I, I don't, I don't get it.

Al ElliottI can kind of see from a small business point of view— when I say small, I mean up to sort of 500 employees, we're not talking about microbusiness— then there is a risk because we've had a tough run of it the last 3 or 4 years. Almost any small business you talk to, they go, yeah, we had 2 years off because of the pandemic, you know, things that shit went down. So I can see that they're being a bit more conservative than they might have been 5 years ago. So I can see that. But the reason to allow flexibility for work just seem to be so numerous that I don't know why someone's saying, no, we're not going to do this. Talking of which, let's just go on to number 3, which is— now this is a good one— remote work supports a healthier work-life balance. It's interesting, and I'm going to come back to a report in a second that Leanne's found, but it's interesting. Work-life balance, I think we're always going to have a load of— a minority of people who go, there is no work-life balance. I just, I just work. That's what makes me happy. A minority of people who are going to be, who are going to be like, oh no, no, no, I never want to work. I want to do 2 or 3 hours a day. And if I don't earn much money, then fair enough. Then we got the people in the middle and they're going to swing like in the elections. You're going to see the swing-o-meter. They're going to swing and they're going to be like, yeah, okay, work-life balance. I want to work more, I want to work less, etc., etc. But it boils down to the Future of Remote Work report, which is in 2022, which is published by Zapier. Interesting. I found out recently Zapier rhymes with happier. So it's not Zapier like I was calling it. So interesting I say that happier because people chose to work remotely because it makes them happy. So they believe that remote work allows them to achieve a work-life balance, which is crucial to their overall wellbeing. Now that means that sort of almost 9 out of 10 employees believe the ability to work remotely would contribute to the happiness and a better work-life balance respectively. And 85% of employees feel a remote or hybrid job makes them happier. But does it? Leah, I want to—

Rossdoes work—

Al Elliottdoes working remotely make you happy?

BethYes!

Al ElliottRight, case closed!

Leanne ElliottYeah, it does, it does. But then, like we said, we're old hands at this. We've been doing it for a long time, but working remotely has definitely given us more flexibility, more experiences that that we've— or I guess more experience had within a shorter period of time. It's, um, it works really well for me. I like it. I like it.

Al ElliottYeah, and I do. I think, um, a lot of the stuff that we do tends to be sort of more creative than just sort of, you know, administrative. Um, and I find that if I'm— if I'm being a big thing— if you wake up and you're in a bit of a bad mood, then you might go and, you know, reconcile your accounts, or like you this morning, went and changed our thumbnail on our logo. By the way, what do you think of our new thumbnail, listener? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there are other days where I wake up and I'm like, 7 o'clock in the morning, bing! And I'm like, I want to go and create something today. Now, if every day we had to go to the office and every day then with that commute, I feel for me, the commute kind of like slightly mutes my, my excitedness for the day.

Leanne ElliottYes, there is something really indulgent about working remotely, particularly if you're working somewhere abroad. Like we said, we've worked in Thailand, we've worked in Cambodia, we've worked— we've worked in many, many places. There is something that is so wonderful about— even if you— and I've worked a really quite high stressful job during the majority of those years where we were really nomadic— and the joy of being able to close your laptop, step outside onto a beach And have someone hand you a piña colada. That's an extreme example, but even then, just knowing, you know, okay, well, I've closed my laptop and I'm in, in Venice for the next 2 weeks. So cool, once I finish work, I'm, I'm on holiday. They really just provide you that, that, I guess, that ability to, to switch off. But yeah, I guess the tricky thing is, is that working remotely does blur the lines. It does blur the lines between work and home. And one of the downsides of remote work can be that ability to disconnect. So if you're not working remotely from Venice or Koh Samui, then it can be a bit more tricky. But we have seen this as an issue, a reported issue by employees, decrease over the last 2 years. So we're getting better at it. As we've said, we've done this for 10 years, and it does take some practice. And I think seemed to fit together for us when we came to the conclusion that remote work is less about work-life balance and perhaps a little bit more about work-life integration.

Al ElliottNice.

Leanne ElliottBut of course, we are speaking from a huge place of privilege, being self-employed and having very progressive employers before this. We were able to work remotely from anywhere. And while there are many organizations that are embracing remote work, Much fewer are embracing work from anywhere, except for Ross. Ross does. And while he admits it's a challenge, he also believes that work-life integration is a useful perspective to take.

RossIt's difficult, but just because something is difficult doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. And I think for us, we believe that this whole concept of work-life balance is a bit of a myth, and that what we should actually strive for is work-life integration. Where your work and your life can be integrated in a way that gives you optimal happiness and joy and fulfillment every single day. So when we think about that and we believe that that's the way that things should be, we encourage our teammates and our colleagues to work wherever, as mentioned on the site, they want to lay their mat down. That could be in Cambodia, that could be in Argentina, that could be in Mexico, that could be in Bali, it could be anywhere in the The only thing that we as an organization need to do to ensure that that is possible is, one, ensure and create an environment where asynchronous communication is key, where transparent communication happens, and where we have the security procedures and policies in place to ensure that our team is always operating in a way that doesn't give any potential risk to our partners and our clients. So we have policies that and procedures around how to manage a remote working environment and experience. We use solutions and tools to ensure that we're able to manage the data and to constantly be reviewing the devices that our team has to ensure that they don't have viruses and things of that nature as well, that no harm can be done. These are the types of things that you have to think about. Yes, it is hard, but in our perspective and our belief is that if you can create an environment where people can thrive no matter where they are, then you can attract some of the best talent in the world.

Al ElliottI like the way he thinks.

RossI do.

Al ElliottI didn't interview Ross. I kind of wish I had. He seems pretty cool.

Leanne ElliottHe's ace.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottIt's like one of those guys who's just like effortlessly cool.

Leanne ElliottOh, without a doubt. Yeah.

BethYeah.

Al ElliottSo reason number 4 why remote work is amazing is it allows work to work for the individual. Like Ross just said, If you create an environment where people can thrive no matter where they are, then you can attract some of the best talent in the world. The fact is that as we seem to, most of us who may, mainly those people who answer surveys, seem to say that we like the flexibility of where we work. We like choice. So when we're working from home, for example, about 75% of us will work from a home office, about 40% from the bedroom, 24% from 21% in the wardrobe?

Leanne ElliottYeah, I didn't understand that either.

RossI—

Al Elliottnow, if you record, if you do a Zoom call or something in the wardrobe, all the clothes dampen your sound and you sound amazing.

Leanne ElliottAnd I think that's the problem. Offices aren't typically built now or set up for how people want to work in their own individual ways. And it does seem that this individual preference is really a big thing. So again, if you look at the statistics, we're kind of looking at 70 to 75% of people want to work remote first, or maybe be in the office some of the time. Then we've got 20% of people who want to work remotely all the time, and the remainder, which is only about 10 to 15% max, want to work from the office. So even within an organisation, we're going to likely have people with very different preferences that we need to think about in terms of individuals. And I wonder if that's why the 3 days out of 5 seems to be the magic number when it comes to kind of the office-remote split, because they're looking at these statistics and go, oh, that'll keep everyone happy. But reflecting those statistics, it might be a fair compromise, or it could actually just be the worst of both worlds. I asked Ross about that.

RossI'm a big believer in that there's like, there's a lot of shades of gray, and every human is kind of like an onion. And this is a Shrek reference, but every onion, every human has different layers, and every layer is going to be different from one person to the next. And that reality will result in fully in-office culture works extremely well for a certain type of person. Fully remote culture works extremely well for a certain type of person. And hybrid also works extremely well for a certain type of person. I think there is an environment and a case to be made for all of the different types of work environments. But I think You have to understand first and foremost yourself, and you have to understand what you want in life. When it comes to a hybrid environment, some people don't like the fact that an organization will say you have to come in, and they say have to come in 2 days a week. That alone, that requirement, is giving them a limited amount of autonomy for 2 days a week, and that is enough for them to say this isn't for me. On the flip side, some people People would say, yeah, I do need that break, at least 2 days a week where I can connect with my peers, my colleagues in person. We can grab pizza at lunch. We can do all of those in-person things, have cupcakes afterwards, blah, blah, blah. Those are things that some people really do want in their life. I think the moment that a leader who runs a remote company, even like myself, has a blanket statement that remote is the only way to go is when you are taking away from your own credibility to recognize that everyone is different and everybody's life, everybody's lived experiences are going to be different. Some people don't live in a home that is set up to work remotely, and that means those people would love to work in an office or would love to work in a hybrid environment. That's okay. It's okay for everybody We want to be different. So I would never say that hybrid doesn't work for anyone. It does. But it all starts with understanding the individual, their circumstances, their preferences, their ambitions, their own perspective on work and what they want in their life and in their career.

Leanne ElliottSo yeah, maybe it is the worst of all worlds, actually. So rather than focusing on the whole, remote work first requires focusing on the individual. It is not rocket science. You ask people what they want, and you try to give it to them. Right, Beth?

BethYeah. So I will let you in on a secret. If you do what people want, they will be happier. So people wanted to stay working from home. We got feedback on that, we collected data on it, and we've delivered what they wanted. And that's had massive results for us in terms of engagement and motivation. But it's really important for me as well to be pragmatic and be commercial. So I looked at metrics like productivity, and we're better than we were. I looked at metrics from an HR perspective in terms of absence. We've got much lower absence. Even metrics like any kind of formal HR processes, dramatically reduced. And it's not that we've all been working from home and we don't see each other. We have quarterly team days where we all get together, and the main focus is learning and connecting. And that's been fantastic for building the culture, helping people feel connected back to the purpose and to each other, and the glow from that lasts pretty much for the whole quarter until we get together again.

Al ElliottThat lady talks some sense.

Leanne ElliottDo you know what I think it comes down to?

Al ElliottWhat?

Leanne ElliottIf you're in— working in line with our own individual preferences is something we've been able to indulge in during the pandemic. So working remotely allows us to continue working in a way that suits individuals. Going back to the office then puts us in this environment where we have to operate and work as a group in ways that aren't my preference. So I think it's not— and I don't say this because it might give a point to the office— but if the office start to actually think about how do we facilitate individuals in the way that they want to work, then maybe people wouldn't be losing their shit about being asked to go back to the office.

Al ElliottThere's a big difference between mandating someone to go back to the office and encouraging them to go back to the office. And if you can make the office cooler than your— than home, well, people are going to flock there. That's why the cool bars always do well, and then they go out of fashion because another cool bar comes along. So lower absence, higher engagement. The point seems to be the sentiment is fairly universal. Number 5, remote work provides flexibility. Now, we all— that's an obvious one, but this specifically for parents, for caregivers, people with disabilities. It just gives flexibility to those people who really, really need it. But the first area of flexibility that remote work provides is money. And that's because if you stay at home rather than going to work, then you can potentially save up to $6,000 if you do it in a hybrid role, and $12,000— that's $1,000 a year— by working remotely full-time. Now, savings can be made on like commuting costs, on clothes, on eating. You don't tend to go— you're not likely to go out to Starbucks and buy a coffee if you have to get the bus to go there and come back. So the recent cost of living crisis brought these financial well-beings into— or financial wellbeing into the spotlight. Now, especially for those companies asking people to come back in the office, the financial impact is a hot topic.

BethSo making sure from a cost of living perspective that you have good salaries, fair pay, and the foundations in place in terms of pay, pensions, any other benefits that you can offer, that's the place to start, rather than maybe apps or other benefits that potentially will scratch around the edges but not fix the core problem. We also talked about, as we've spoken about, the kind of manager aspect as well, so making sure that wherever people go for support or advice, that those people they talk to are equipped with the right information to signpost appropriately.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.

Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Know UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioral science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I am.

Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Keep that in.

Al ElliottNow the other part of this is that if you can work anywhere, then you can work anywhere. So a lot of people are talking about moving out of London, out of Manchester city centre, into more rural places that are cheaper, that are nicer, that you can go and walk your dog in the evening, that are potentially safer. I know San Francisco Francisco's not got a great reputation at the moment. It seems that a lot of people are moving out of the city. Again, only from like stuff I see on the news and stuff. It's not like I've not been there. But the whole point, I think, is that 2.4% of all people, around 5 million of all Americans, around 5 million people have said they've already moved due to remote working opportunities. And another like quarter percent of people have— it's not quarter percent. That's not quarter percent of a person. Another 25% of the people asked said they were moving 4 hours from their employer location, with commutable distances no longer a concern. And I think this makes sense, because why would you sit in a grey, damp building with the rain hitting the windows if what you really dream of is sitting on a beach somewhere? Now, of course, sitting on a beach, you can't really work on a beach because you get sand in your laptop. And so, I mean, remote work is also really good for people who find it difficult to get into work. Perhaps they're disabled, Perhaps mobility is a bit more reduced, or a chronic illness or something. 44% of the respondents to the survey who identified as having a chronic disability or an illness totally agree. And as we know from last week's episode, remote and flexible work options are also really effective for the neurodiverse. Now, it's not just disabled, it's not just neurodiverse— parents and caregivers. Now, the OWL Lab from 2021— remember OWL, O-W-L, not A-L— 63% of those people who worked from home during the pandemic had to take care of children or a dependent. Now, the majority of caregivers are women, and while worldwide women only make up 38% of the workforce, they, they are the majority, with 60% of them in remote work, according to the GitLab Remote Work Report. Women also expressed that it's easier to progress careers and meet deadlines when working remotely. What do you think of that, Leah?

Leanne ElliottIt all makes sense to me. And again, I think, you know, it's going to be different for individuals. When it came to women, I think we were talking to Dr. Claire on our women's health episode. So the pandemic was either brilliant for women or it was awful for women. Like, there's no real in-between. But again, it gives you flexibility, it gives you options. It's like Dr. Nancy was explaining last week about how, you know, if you're autistic, having those flexible working hours to either— flexibility to either work from home or flexible working hours as to when you go into the office, what time of day, what days, makes all the world of difference. So I think again, it's just giving people with disabilities, with different constraints, with different priorities, with different things to manage in their life, the flexibility and control that they need to be able to manage these more effectively.

Al ElliottThere's a whole generation of people for whom this is basically what they want. It's not whether you are a caregiver, disabled, neurodiverse, got children, It's what they want. So millennials and Gen Z are now demanding this. So number 6, it is the future because the future of the workforce are demanding it.

Leanne ElliottYes, I really don't think we can overlook the expectations our younger generations have when it comes to, to working preferences. I do believe remote work is here to stay. And another reason I believe remote work is here to stay is because employees are more engaged. So, Discretionary effort or going the extra mile. That is a core behavior that we see in engaged employees. And the data shows that people are often reinvesting the time that they are saving commuting into their work. 40% of respondents who shifted to remote work due to COVID-19 said they were working more since going remote. And the same percentage said they were working the same as before. There was only about 20% that said that they were working less. And 20% is about the people we believe we have who are actively disengaged within our workplaces. Anyway, so probably doesn't make any difference. But of course, if we are working longer hours, and this is a downside of remote work, it could lead to individual challenges for employees, including stress and in prolonged cases, burnout. You'll remember from our mental health awareness episode that the latest research by Mind showed that 50% of employees don't feel supported by their organisation, and that may be down to the rapid shift in remote work and how slower support has been implemented. Ross also shared one of his tools he uses to improve support for remote employees.

RossBefore I made any hire, the first thing I did was I sat in a hotel room, set up a camera, and recorded myself recording a handful of videos to talk about our processes and procedures. And I did this intentionally because I wanted to gift the future me the ability to not have to hold a meeting and an interview during the onboarding process where I had to coach the team on how to use these different tools. So instead, I created a handful of videos where the team today would still get some of mine, but some other Foundationites have recorded others to kind of contribute to our new processes and new tools, and they just educate the team on how to do things. And it saves time from having to book meetings. It saves time from training because now people are able to just go through the material as a part of their onboarding. onboarding and go back to it in the future if they would like to.

Al ElliottNow, for once, I'm going to be saying what Lianne normally says, and he's saying that if you want to improve the support your organization gives to its employees, you need to— should we say it together, Lianne?

Leanne ElliottInvest in managers!

Al ElliottThat was probably not quite as well-timed.

Leanne ElliottDo you want to do it again?

Al ElliottNo, I like it. Let's leave it like that. The role of line managers is so important, we know, in terms of wellbeing, in terms of mental health, in terms performance, in terms of productivity, everything comes back to the line manager. So it's a fair question to ask, how do you train line managers to be effective remotely? And how do you make sure they're also supported if they're working remotely? We asked Beth.

BethIt's a tough one, and I will say I think the role of the manager has got harder and harder over the last few years. So a couple of things that we do specifically at Investors in People, we make sure that we invest in that group, and they have time to get together to share problems and lessons. We're going to start doing that in person this year for the first time since the pandemic. We also make sure that they have the training that they need, so that there aren't any accidental managers. They're invested in learning how to be a manager as much as they are their technical skills. And for better or for worse, they also have lots of contact time with me. So, we're actually small enough that I can have FaceTime or one-to-one time over Teams or in person with every single manager at least once within 2 weeks. So I talk to them about what's on their plate, do a bit of coaching, answer questions, signpost if they've got things that they need. And that's worked really well to provide them with that safe space and support as well during this difficult time. There's free training available online, which kind of builds the foundation stepping stones of what it is to be a manager in and how that works. And then I guess it's just being there to answer questions. So, you can be— if they can't find the answer on your intranet or shared documents or policies, you can be like their management Google, be there to support them, answer those questions, give the benefit of your experience and expertise. I think that's made a huge difference for our manager cohort. And then also, I think one thing that I've learned during my career is look out for people that others follow. So just identifying natural leaders to go into management positions gives you a massive head start, rather than just looking for technical experts who have much further to come in terms of that development.

Leanne ElliottThe 8th reason why remote working is better than office working is that it has enabled us to prioritise our wellbeing. So since some remote employees have been putting in more hours and weekend work, they've also started taking more care of their mental health. A report from Microsoft this time shows that 53% of those surveyed, particularly parents and women— that went up to 55% for parents and 56% for women— are more likely to prioritize their health and well-being now than they were previously when they were not working from home. And another 47% are more likely to prioritize family and personal life over work.

Al ElliottWhat's interesting about the pandemic is it's taken a lot of things from us, but it's also given us a little bit more perspective over what's important. We've all kind of stopped and— well, not all, but a lot of us have stopped and reflected. And we decided not to be quite so hard on ourselves. Like, for example, work is something that no longer defines or seems to define millennials and Gen Zs. Of course, there will be some who it does, but for the majority of them, it doesn't define them. There's a reason that TikTok is full of people, usually of that generation, those generations, taking the piss out of me, Gen X, and boomers, because we seem so set in our ways. So Ross says to us, let's just stop butting heads about this. And let's be a little bit more easy on ourselves and others.

RossBut more than anything, I am easy on myself when it comes to not always getting everything right. As much as I'm my harshest critic, when it comes to the things that I developed and things that I create, I'm also not hard on myself to a point where I am overly stressed because I don't always have a 50/50 balance, right? I think it's easy to look at yourself and say, you are a failure, you're a mistake, you're not doing well, you're struggling here, you're always doing this. That's a toxic mentality that I think can cause a lot of harm, and I really do believe that you have to give yourself compliments just as much as you give yourself negative critique because it's easy to critique yourself. I do that all the time when it comes to my work. I find value in critiquing my work. But if you're intentional and you actually try your best and you can look in the mirror and say, I try my best to give as much as I can to my kids, to give as much as I can to my partner, to give as much as I can to my work, to the industry, and to the communities that I want to be a part of. If you can say you do your best, then that's great. That's all you can ask for. And I just try my best and that's it. And if I am successful, great, but I'm trying my best. And I know that sometimes I'll go months without talking to one of my friends and I'll be like, dropped the ball there, but that's a part of it. I've tried, I'm trying my best constantly, and it's difficult, no doubt about it. But as long as I'm trying, then I'm able to sleep well at night.

Leanne ElliottReason number 9, and this might be my most favorite of all the favoritest of reasons, is that remote work replaces lazy leadership with intentional leadership. Intention is definitely the word of 2023 so far. So remote work, I believe, has completely exposed any undeveloped leaders, and any lazy leaders. Research shows us increasingly that the competencies and behaviors of an effective leader are no different in remote or hybrid settings than they are in the office. So saying as a leader it is much more difficult to lead people remotely, oh, it might be actually that it's more about you. It's not them, hun, it's you. A good leader is a good leader, or rather an An intentional leader is a good leader. Here's Ross.

RossAnd the key to that is really just being intentional with recognizing that remote work is different, and with remote work, communication excellence is a necessity rather than a nice-to-have. When you are in the office, it's easy to go and have lunch with your colleagues and peers, or even just say something across the office that the entire company hears within the matter of seconds. But with a remote-first company, you have to set a bar and a level of expectation around what great communication looks like. And then as the leader of the company, you need to match it and meet it every single day.

Leanne ElliottNow, there are a few aspects of intentional leadership I'd like to highlight, if I may, just to give you— because again, we're not— what did you say last week? We don't just drop you in the shit. We're not just going to go, chances are you're not a very good leader. We're actually going to tell you about the things that you can do to be more effective. There are lots of leaders that will say things like, oh, well, you know, people don't actually work when they're from home. You can't trust them to work from home. Or, you know, they're just skiving. They went for a hair appointment on Wednesday. Trust is, trust is everything. If you don't trust your employees, frankly, why did you hire them in the first place? And what's that say about the culture of your business? Where trust just isn't there. And also, don't forget, trust works both ways. If you don't trust your people, there's a really good chance that they don't trust you. Ross believes that the best way to find out if you can trust someone is to trust them, and lives this every day through one of Foundation's core values. Foundation is his business that he runs with 100% remote team. Their core value is you are flexible, accountable, and free. I asked Ross what role trust played for him in building a successful remote company.

RossTrust is the foundation in which a great remote culture has to exist and can exist in. If you don't trust the individuals on your team, then you shouldn't have those individuals on your team. They've clearly broken your trust in some way. There's this concept that we at Foundation talk about very often called a trust battery, and it's a concept that I've heard Tobi Lütke from Shopify talk about as well. It's kind of like The Sims. As a video game geek, if anyone watches video games or plays video games, they'll get this reference. Over the head of every single individual that you interact with, you have kind of a gauge. You have a gauge which is your trust battery and the level of trust that that person has with you. As a company and as an organization, every single individual that you employ comes into your company typically at a 50/50 level. Maybe slightly a little bit more where they trust you a little bit more because they had a great interview process, and you should try to optimize for that. But when they enter your doors, they're at 50. And what happens over time is if you as an employer or if you as a manager continue to do the things that you say you're going to do, provide the support that individuals need, you're going to see that trust battery increase. And on the flip side, if you're an employee and you do what you say you're going to do and you meet your deadlines, then you're being great at communication, your trust battery with them is also going to increase. Now, the flip side to that is also true. If trust is eradicated through a significant amount of bad interactions, poor behaviors, missed deliverables, missed timelines, etc., then the trust battery drains. And what you should strive to constantly do in a remote environment is optimize for the most trust possible. And if people are going down a path where they're constantly taking dings to their trust battery or they are dinging your own trust battery, then you have to ask yourself if this is a good person for your culture, for your team, and for your company. The answer is likely no. You want people who you can trust because through trust becomes autonomy. When you have autonomy, you as an adult who has this job and has this role has the ability to, in my opinion, to do your best work because you don't always feel like somebody's The second of the 3 things that make you an intentional leader is communication.

Al ElliottSo connection and collaboration in remote settings also requires a huge amount of intention. So again, going back to this Microsoft Work Trend report, it found that 70% of decision-makers regard maintaining social connections within teams as one of their biggest challenges. Unfortunately, employees suffer the consequences. And that's a big problem. of these hurdles. See, about half of them feel their relationship with coworkers outside their team was weakened. And that leaves like 43% feeling disconnected from the company. We know this doesn't need to be this way because Gen Z and millennials live their life online. They're comfortable having strong relationships via a device. But older generations are not used to this and not comfortable. They crave connection.

Leanne ElliottWe have an interesting dynamic here when it comes to communication then, don't we? We've got people who are very comfortable with digital intimacy, and we've got others that aren't very comfortable, and those others are typically in higher leadership positions. So employees need to take steps to combat this, otherwise it could start to really impact employee satisfaction and of course then business performance.

RossRoss faced this challenge as a remote business leader and over time has reaped the benefits Yeah, it was one of the biggest hurdles and one of the biggest obstacles that I had in the early days of even making the decision to go remote. A lot of people would say, Ross, how are you going to run a creative company, a company that's creating cool things, without actually jumping into a room and feeling each other's energy and writing on a whiteboard? Like, that's not possible. Being around since 2014, working with some of the top SaaS companies in the world, we've been able to prove that that's That's a myth. It's not real. You don't need to physically be in the same room, the same environment to actually have creative ideas. There's a reason why you can literally today find the love of your life online and build a strong and deep connection and relationship without actually being in the same room with each other. That is happening right now today and it has probably happened to some of the listeners where they met someone online, they connected with them, they shared a lot of messages, and they knew from that dialogue that that was the person. For some reason, in the creative industry, we think, yeah, you can fall in love with someone, but you can't come up with a good idea remotely. It doesn't make any sense. The way that you facilitate it is, as an organization, you have to embrace the idea of collaborative tools. You have to embrace the idea of having collaborative dialogues and being okay with a message coming back to you 2 or 3 minutes later. Sometimes, that's okay. It's okay because it also gives you space to think. If I go to the team and I present an idea and I share my idea and my message, in that moment, that was the context that I had that I communicated to them. But then, I go for a walk. I might have a tea party with my daughter. I might go down to the local beach and, in that process where my mind is no longer thinking about the problem and my mind is in a more calm state of flow, a new idea might hit me. Then I can come back to my desktop. I can see that the team has collaborated. They've commented. They might have threw a few emojis and a GIF on something that I shared asynchronously. Then I can say, quick update. Here's some additional context that I just came up with and realized that I wanted to share with you. Now, in some cases, if I'm in person, that can never happen because everything is constricted to the 60-minute meeting block in which that content was delivered synchronously. But asynchronously gives you the opportunity to find more space. It gives you the opportunity to balance and do additional research and then come back to an update, to collaborate with multiple minds. That is what makes asynchronous communication so special.

Al ElliottSo the third thing you need for intentional leadership is Leanne's favorite C-word. No, not that one. What is it, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottCulture. That, that's my second favorite C-word, but— Joking, I am. It is culture. We couldn't talk about leadership intention without talking about culture. Culture can feel intangible, but it doesn't have to be. Culture can be measured, it can be shaped, it can be changed. And to do all that, you just need a predictive model of culture, like the RX7 model that we've talked to you about before that we use with clients at Oblong. It scopes 7 foundations of culture that leaders can provide, that they can influence. And by doing this, it's showing that you authentically care, and that goes a long way.

Al ElliottRoss also agrees that culture requires intention.

RossWell, our approach to culture is very intentional. We believe that culture can sometimes happen organically if you're in an office and people are around each other and you kind of just hang out. a culture kind of develops. When you're fully remote, you have to communicate and talk about the cultural expectations often. You have to live by your values and talk about your core values often. Then you actually have to show up and communicate and demonstrate your values just the same. One of our core values at Foundation is elevate culture. If you hear that, you might say, what does that even mean? We essentially, when we're talking about elevating culture, We're talking about internally as well as externally. On the internal side, when we talk about elevating culture, we're talking about helping ensure that other Foundationites, other people on your team, are having an ideal work experience. Meaning instead of just sending them a thumbs up when you approve something, give them some context around what you liked about their piece. Give them some context around why you thought that they should adjust to a certain thing, and if you really, really wanted to elevate culture, maybe record a Loom or video asynchronously and share it with them talking through the things that you want to see. When we talk about those types of ideas frequently and we reward those ideas and celebrate those behaviors internally, we have a celebration Slack channel and we're always celebrating things that people are doing that actually contribute and demonstrate our core values. It starts to reinforce the ideas that we want our team to embody. When we think about externally elevating culture, we believe in That our team should have the opportunity to work with and communicate and collaborate with people who they actually care about. We have a volunteer day where every single day the office— every single year, the office shuts down and everyone is given and encouraged to take the day off to elevate culture in the communities and in the spaces that they feel connected to. That is our commitment to our team to say, look, again, autonomy. You pick the charity. You pick the nonprofit, you pick the organization that you want to support, go do your thing, but we want you to be empowered to go and do that. So when you start to embrace that and recognize, like, this is with a fully remote company around the world, they're all going to have different things they care about, different spaces they want to be involved with. Giving them that option reinforces the idea that we want them to constantly be thinking about how they can elevate culture internally and externally. So intention is really the key. When you're thinking about the onboarding experience for a new employee, talking to them about the rules of how you communicate on Slack, talking to them about best practices for calendar management, how to send an email, we've recorded and created a significant amount of documentation where an ideal experience for a Foundationite would be, no matter what you run into, there's a document There's a Loom, there's a video, there's a course, there's a material, a checklist that you can go through that tells you how to do that thing. And by doing so, it makes it easy for our team to operate on multiple time zones and again, ensure that we are constantly operating in sync around the same cultural values.

Leanne ElliottAlways remember, you have a culture, whether you know it or not. See, if you're not intentionally shaping that culture, who knows what it's doing for your business?

BethI was at a wellbeing conference and someone gave a quote to me and it stuck in my mind and I think of it all the time. And they said that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. So I think if you've got a naturally caring style, as in you, you care about the people that are working with you or for you, you're interested in them as human beings, I think that is the the natural makings of a great leader. Everything else in terms of what to do in terms of conversations and that kind of thing can be trained, but it's difficult to build on a foundation where that care isn't there in the first place.

Leanne ElliottSo, moving on to our final point, our 10th reason why remote is so awesome. I asked Beth if there was one thing that line managers or business owners could do tomorrow, something simple, that's going to have an immediate impact on how effective they are at managing a remote or hybrid team, what would it be?

BethOne of the things that we've spoken about as unique and beneficial about Investors in People is that we gather data about how your staff are feeling and thinking and how they experience work, and we're independent, so you can have the peace of mind that if we go in and we are looking at your practices and talking to your team, you're getting a real picture of what's actually happening, and that's something that gives you peace of mind and potentially protects against the risk of something happening in a corner of the organisation you're not aware of that could then impact on your reputation, for example.

Leanne ElliottYes, Beth. Yes, yes, yes. Data is everything, and it is no coincidence that we've been throwing data at you this entire episode. Remote work has to be data and evidence-led work. Well, to be honest, office, office work does as well. But if you're working remotely, it is almost impossible to lead effectively if you do not gather data. Using Employee Insights can give you the data you need. It is your new best friend if you want to make remote or hybrid working work. Here's Ross.

RossSo I think it's extremely useful because once you have the data to better understand how people feel and how people are perceiving different things, you can make adjustments and make shifts in your own behaviors, in your own organization at large. You can also get a sense of like, what is the trust battery that the team actually has with us as an organization? Have we set ourselves up for success as it relates to our trust with the team? These are the things that you want to understand as a leader, because it's going to give you a better glimpse into, one, do you have the high-performing team that you aspire to have? But also, are you creating a culture where a high-performing team can actually thrive? If you're always getting 10 out of 10, 10 out of 10 across the board, I think actually that's not a great sign for culture. That means that you've probably set yourself up where you have an environment that isn't holding people maybe even accountable to certain things. But if you have a few instances where a few people within your company are saying, yeah, I feel like a little bit too much is expected from us, and that's something that you're seeing, that's okay. Because that can be an insight that's saying you are still pushing people to actually reach high-stakes volumes of goals and priorities and metrics and things of that nature. So we use that data to do a gut check on how we're running. We do use that data to get a gut check on our team and how they're feeling. I think that data is so important.

Al ElliottSo Ross then went on to share how he uses data audit in organization to help him be effective as a leader at Foundation. This, ladies and gentlemen, is intention in action.

RossSo, if I spend time with the team, I have a color-coded calendar where it showcases what things are culture-driven, what things are sales-driven, which things are marketing-driven, which things are coaching-driven, which things are with the leadership team, which things are with my children, my partner, just one-on-one time, which things are just like Ross creative time, what things are community-driven where I'm giving back. All of those things go into my calendar and I'm able to audit on a monthly basis how much time and energy did I spend giving back to the community. If I notice that that goes down below 5 hours a month, then I'm like, okay, that's not really aligned with what I want to do. If I notice that I am way over-indexed on the work side where community, family, friends all take a significant dip, Then, I look at the coming month and I'm like, all right, I'm going to book a week vacation. Okay, I'm going to do something different this upcoming month. So, those are the things that I do to help me sleep well at night, but I really do live by my calendar. And I think calendar management is one of the most important things that any leader can do because all we have in life is time. And if you can manage your time well, then you can manage your life well.

Al ElliottNow, data allows us to take calculated risks when it comes to experimenting and trying new things. in the workplace. We can use it to measure the impact and the ROI. But as Ross admits, shaping the future of work is tricky, and you're not always going to get it right. I asked Ross what he predicts for the future of work and what some of the risks and challenges he thinks we're going to see along the way.

RossWe're going to continue down the path of seeing an increase in the amount of organizations that are embracing remote work. I think a lot of the companies that are reverting back to being in the office or hybrid have kind of put their stamp on the ground and have done that. I think there might be a few more to come that will say, all right, we're putting— enforcing everyone back into the office. But I think we're gonna see a continued rise in remote companies, especially with early-stage companies, especially with SMBs and small companies and small businesses. Now, one of the things that throws remote work a little bit of a curveball, and this is a reality that is also starting to show up, is that there's this whole movement around have 2 remote jobs at the same time and just double up in terms of the income. And this is something that is taking a lot of remote companies and saying, hmm, okay, there is a bit of a risk here. Could I have an employee who is working another job at the same time and they're doubled up in terms of their output and their work? That's a real risk. That is something that organizations need to also consider and think about. As they start to embrace remote work. And the solution there is to really just have visibility as a team with your managers, your directors, etc., to understand what a true capacity and capabilities look like for individuals and use that to understand how to allocate and distribute work assignments and projects.

Leanne ElliottAnd that is my number 10 and my most favorite, because remote leaders know that data is their best friend. And if we have data, We can make impactful changes that actually make a difference in individual lives and on business performance. We are evidence-led, and that is what I am here for.

Al ElliottI'm going to get you a t-shirt saying, I am evidence-led. So should we quickly go through the 1 to 10 things we just went over there?

Leanne ElliottYes. Number 1 is preferred. Our employees want it. Let's try and give it to them.

Al ElliottNumber 2, remote work makes an employer attractive or a workplace attractive.

Leanne ElliottNumber 3, remote work often supports a healthier work-life balance.

Al ElliottNumber 4, remote work allows work to work for the individual.

Leanne ElliottNumber 5, remote work provides flexibility for parents, for caregivers, for people with disabilities, for the neurodiverse, for all of us who want the flexibility and choice over where we live and how we spend our money.

Al ElliottNumber 6, it is literally the future. The future generations who are going to be working with us over the next, like, 60 years want remote work.

Leanne ElliottNumber 7, the data is showing that employees are more engaged. They are showing more discretionary effort and going the extra mile.

Al ElliottNumber 8, remote work prioritises wellbeing. We know that we take care of ourselves if we can have the flexibility to do so.

Leanne ElliottNumber 9, remote work means we have intentional leadership. And that is everything.

Al ElliottAnd number 10, data is everything. In other words, we can do this remote work thing if we look at the data.

Leanne ElliottYeah. So those are our 10 reasons as to why remote work is going to win this, this battle. I'm not even sure we need to record next week. You know, I think we— joking.

Al ElliottSo if you haven't already, be sure to check out Ross's podcast, Create Like the Greats. Here's Ross, just to give you a little flavor of what to expect.

RossYeah, I would strongly encourage folks to check it out. Create Like the Greats. Essentially, we dive deep into the history and the experiences that some of the greatest creators of all time have gone through, whether it's actually studying a creation like a company like MasterClass and the things that they did to scale and grow and build this major company that is ultimately worth millions of dollars, all the way through to actual individual creators where we actually interview those creators. We interview those who may have worked with these creators and create stories and create episodes that take you behind the scenes into the way that these creators did or do what they do. Sometimes we talk to creators that are completely outside of my world, which is marketing, such as a conductor who has deep experience conducting some of the greatest classical music orchestras in the world and how they create an environment within that to really create high performers, or we'll interview some of the greatest musicians of all time and the people who work with them to tell stories around how they create great things.

Leanne ElliottWe'll also leave Beth's LinkedIn profile in the show notes and the Investors in People website address. Here is Beth to explain the various services Investors in People offers.

BethWe're focusing just on the people aspects. It's in 3 main clusters. So we look at leadership. Are leaders trusted? Do they set direction? What are the company values like? We look at supporting to make sure that people are being developed, looked after, that they have great jobs. And then lastly, improving. So there's a culture of continuous improvement, sustainability, and a focus on making things better over time. That some people look for it when they're searching for jobs, as it's the— it's kind of a trust mark of a great employer. And particularly, we've found with our new apprentices framework, that's been really helpful for people entering the world of work through the apprenticeship route to differentiate between the good and the great schemes out there.

Al ElliottWell, there you have it. That's the first part of 2. Don't forget, we're gonna be back next week and we'll be arguing just as vehemently and passionately about why the office— and it's going to be a tough one because we haven't worked in office for a long time.

Leanne ElliottYes, but luckily we have some incredible guests that we met from Clerkenwell Design Week. And I'll be honest, 2 things surprised me about Clerkenwell Design Week. One, I was starting to really think Wait a minute, is the office back? Is this a thing? And 2, my favourite conversation over the 2 days was about electricity and plug sockets. So there you go.

Al ElliottYour dad would be very proud, being an electrical engineer.

Leanne ElliottSo we will see you next week. For now, remote work 1, office work nil, but I have a feeling that could change next week.

Al ElliottLet's find out. Bye for now. Bye.