Episode 132 · 1 October 2024 · 52:32

A.I. Managers, Diversity Backlash, and Phill Agnew’s Hot Take on Hard Work – This Week in Work, 1st October 2024

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Story 1: The UK's 'Accidental Managers' Crisis
news roundup#accidental-managers #management #uk-workplace
Story 2: Can AI Replace Human Managers?
news roundup#ai #artificial-intelligence #management
Story 3: The Diversity Hiring Backlash
news roundup#diversity #hiring #backlash
Hot Take: Phill Agnew on Hard Work
hot take#hard-work #hot-take #phill-agnew
Workplace Surgery: Underperforming Long-Term Employee
workplace surgery#underperformer #performance-management #employee
Workplace Surgery: Work-Life Balance in Accounting
workplace surgery#work-life-balance #accounting #burnout
Workplace Surgery: Boosting Engagement in a Non-Profit
workplace surgery#engagement #non-profit #motivation

Show notes

A.I. Managers, Diversity Backlash & Phill Agnew's Hot Take on Hard Work

This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Business Psychologist) break down why 82% of UK managers are "accidental managers," whether AI could actually make a better boss than most humans, and why pro-diversity messaging might be backfiring. Plus, we launch our brand-new Hot Takes series with Phill Agnew, host of the UK's #1 marketing podcast, Nudge — and tackle three listener questions in the Workplace Surgery.

🔥 Stories Covered

1. The UK's "accidental managers" problem A staggering 82% of UK managers are "accidental managers" — promoted based on technical skills rather than leadership ability. With little to no formal training, these managers are wreaking havoc on workplace culture and driving up employee turnover, costing the UK economy billions. Leanne's not surprised. She's been saying it for years: train your line managers.

2. Can AI be a better boss than a human? Al digs into a BBC article exploring whether AI agents can replace human managers. AI is already helping small businesses streamline operations and reduce stress — but can it ever replicate the empathy and human judgment that leadership demands? Given the state of the UK's accidental managers, Leanne's not so sure humans have the edge.

3. Does pro-diversity messaging backfire? A new study in the Journal of Experimental Psychology reveals a concerning finding: White conservative participants were more likely to favour White candidates after seeing pro-diversity messages. Leanne and Al unpack the science of similarity bias and what this means for how organisations talk about inclusion.

🎙️ Hot Takes: Phill Agnew on Hard Work

We're thrilled to launch our brand-new series, Hot Takes, where thought leaders and influencers share their boldest insights into the world of work. This week's guest is Phill Agnew, behavioural science expert and host of the UK's number one marketing podcast, Nudge.

Phill shares his research-backed hot take on why hard work and effort are what employees value most — and why there's no shortcut to building a great workplace culture.

💬 Workplace Surgery

Three listener questions, tackled live:

Underperforming long-term employee: A senior account manager, once a star performer, has been underperforming for six months. Despite informal chats and extra support, nothing's changed. Where's the line between loyalty and protecting client relationships?
Work-life balance in accounting: A partner at a mid-sized firm is worried about burnout despite offering flexible hours. With client demands peaking during tax season, how do you stay competitive without running people into the ground?
Engagement in a non-profit: The director of a small environmental charity is struggling to keep employees engaged — with zero budget for perks or team-building activities.

(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name's Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.

Al ElliottAnd a quick reminder, if you like guest interviews and hearing stories of how organisations have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are definitely right up your street. This Thursday, oh my goodness, we have a genuine bona fide superstar for you, someone you will definitely, definitely have heard of. Little bit of a, uh, of a sneak, it's a sir, um, and this person I'm pretty much everybody, to be honest. Everybody knows him, and I think he knows everybody. I believe when sadly the Queen died, the BBC cut to him to get a comment on it. That's just how fancy and important our guest is on Thursday.

Leanne ElliottAnd if you like to keep up to date with the latest news around the workplace, then you are in the right place. Every Tuesday we bring you our weekly news roundup and of course our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I answer your questions. We are also launching our brand new segment this week Hot Takes, where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of thought leaders and influencers. We're asking them for their boldest insights, whether it's controversial, maybe a prediction, or an unpopular opinion. Nothing is off limits. What's really happening in the world of work, what's broken, and what's coming next. And man, we are starting strong.

Al ElliottYes, our first hot take is from the legendary Phill Agnew, who is an expert in behavioural science and host of the UK's number one marketing podcast, Nudge. Stay tuned for that. But first, I believe it's your favourite time of the week, Leanne.

Leanne ElliottIt is. It's my favourite time of the week. It's time for the news roundup. Al, cue the jingle.

Al ElliottThe jingle is cued. Leah, what have you got? What have you seen this week?

Leanne ElliottYou know that I'm a little bit of a broken record, Al. If you do one thing as a business owner, what do you do?

Al ElliottTrain your line managers.

Leanne ElliottYes. Well, maybe I'm being heard or somebody else is equally frustrated because the shocking quality of UK managers is making headlines in The Times, no less.

Al ElliottThe Times, that's a fancy, fancy newspaper.

Leanne ElliottSo the article sheds light on a growing issue. This is so depressing. 82% of UK managers are accidental managers, people promoted based on their technical skills with no formal leadership training. And the author, Jane Hamilton, is like, uh, how is this a thing? She says you wouldn't put somebody in charge of flying a plane or performing surgery just because they're good at maths or biology. So why are you okay putting people in charge of teams without teaching them how to lead? Jane, I know, I don't know either. Um, but yes, and we're also wondering why it's leading to toxic workplace cultures and massive turnover rates. The article also shared some more frightening data. Apparently, one in three employees has left a job because of bad management, and it's costing the UK economy billions. The article also reports that this is a real low moment for business owners, recruiters, and hiring managers because fewer than. a third of UK managerial positions even require management skills. Here's an idea, Al. How about we actually apply the century worth of research we have in recruitment and start the process, the whole process, with job analysis? That's basically looking at what you need to do the job. Um, I can't understand why any managerial job would not require managerial skills. Um, call me crazy. But I can't help but think that that that might be a requirement that people need some people management skills. It's not enough to be good at the technical side of a job. Managers need emotional intelligence, communication skills, and the ability to create an environment where employees feel psychologically safe. Research consistently shows that teams thrive under managers who understand these dynamics. Thankfully, someone in the UK is also equally frustrated with this, with just the state of management, and somebody. Also much more powerful than me, is doing something about it. The Chartered Management Institute, or the CMI, is leading the charge to fill this managerial skills gap. Their Chartered Manager Status program offers the necessary training for managers to develop these skills. And you know what? It's bloody brilliant for business as well. According to The Times, if UK were to close the skills gap and raise its standard to match countries like Germany, it could lead to an impressive £76 billion-pound boost to the economy over the next decade. Labour, that's your headline right there: invest in line managers. Our thoughts.

Al ElliottWell, we had a little segment on it maybe about a month ago called The Peter Principle, uh, after some guy called Peter, uh, and he basically said that people are— and this was back in the '70s, uh— people are promoted to— now what's the actual term? It's something like promoted to the level of their incompetence or something.

Leanne ElliottYeah, exactly.

Al ElliottUm, and I think that is an issue because people want to be managers because they want to get more money, and they also probably want a little bit more status. But they think that just becoming a manager becomes— means becoming a boss and shouting at people and telling people what to do. And as Leanne has pointed out, the most important thing for a manager is to listen, is to have emotional intelligence. Um, if you think about the best manager you ever had, did they shout at you? Probably not. You might have had a stern word from time to time, but that's not what being a manager is about. And I think the sooner that we Get that across to both people who are promoting people into management and also people who want to be managers, then maybe not so many people will want to be a manager if they realise it's actually a little bit more work than they thought.

Leanne ElliottI mean, let's just remind ourselves that statistic there that the majority of jobs for managerial positions don't even specify that managerial skills are needed.

Al ElliottYes, a sad state of affairs. But with the— what is it— the Management Chartered Institute, Chartered Management Institute, if they're quite, they're quite big cheeses if they get involved, then hopefully things will change.

Leanne ElliottWhat have you seen this week, Al? Something a bit more cheery?

Al ElliottWell, talking of managers, perhaps. And what's interesting is that we both choose— we choose our articles and we don't necessarily see what each other's chosen. Here's the one who, for anyone who hates their boss or maybe is a boss and is sick of all the bullshit, how about an AI boss instead of a human? Thanks to the US-based company Inspira, or Inspira, I think it's Inspira, autonomous AI managers are helping small businesses boost productivity, but some experts are warning that they'll never totally replace human bosses. Well, I hope not either, because I don't think you need to be an expert to realise that. However, what is quite interesting— so before you go, oh, this is a load of rubbish, hold on a second. Let me explain exactly what an AI boss would do. In a recent BBC article, the boss of student marketing agency Hanu Rama was feeling discouraged and frustrated. They'd got— he'd got 83 employees, which are university students, And they provide support for small businesses. But this is what he said. I was getting too bogged down in all these things that were going wrong amongst the teams and feeling this disappointment. When I was bringing new clients on board, half my mind would be thinking, we're gonna screw it up, and it would dampen my enthusiasm. Now, Hanarama, this, as I say, he's got 83 employees, said he started using an AI manager and it added years to his life by reducing his stress level. The AI manager helped employees work faster and be more productive by setting schedules, sending reminders, and answering work questions. According to this article, a study found AI managers were as good as humans at getting employees to plan workdays with a 44% success and to log in on time with a 42% success. Now, when AI and human managers work together, they got 72% of employees to plan their workdays way better than just doing it on their own. But Professor Paul Thurman He's got a warning. He says swapping management roles completely for AI would be a huge mistake. Human bosses are still needed for mentoring and coaching. Well, that makes sense. And I'm sure that my esteemed colleague directly opposite me will have something to say about this. Tina Rahman from HR Habitat says almost 100% of people leave jobs because of bad management. Maybe AI could help by giving clearer instructions. And finally, James Boar.

Leanne ElliottI hope.

Al ElliottI hope that's more of a surname than a description of what he's about to say. He's a cybersecurity expert. Oh dear. Raises a scary point. Sorry, James. If you have an AI manager with all the company secrets, can they be kidnapped or held for a ransom? I've got a very specific set of skills.

Leanne ElliottI hope somebody in cybersecurity would think about that.

Al ElliottExactly. But I can obviously see the pros and the cons of this. An awful lot of management time is spent on transactional stuff, which AI is perfect for. But AI currently, and probably for the next 10 years, will lack empathy. You can't really have a proper relationship with a computer. It's just, it seems like you go, you can't say, right, we're switching to AI bosses. I can definitely see AI doing some of it and freeing up the time for the manager to be a better manager. Leigh, pull that apart.

Leanne ElliottHonestly, given what I've just talked about, I'm wondering whether AI would make better managers than the 80% of managers out there who have never had any sort of form of training, you know, AI would have at least read the internet about what a good manager is meant to do. I think what they're talking about there really is more kind of time management, isn't it, and workflow planning rather than people management skills. So, I can see why AI would be a really good tool for that and something that managers could utilise and automate. I think what you're basically talking about is automating a process rather than replacing a manager. And I think AI could be really cool for all sorts of things like that. We've talked before about how AI could be used for coaching. We're starting to see that, that happening now. I think I, I think I come back to what we talked about a couple of weeks ago when— or is it— yeah, I can't remember when, but we're talking about kind of how AI can help you find purpose in your work by offloading some of the more transactional tasks. And I think this is another really good, really good example. If it can help with the transactional tasks such as time management, workflow planning, um, yeah, cool, I'm for it.

Al ElliottYeah, I've always said that AI, I think, should be Should be coming in and doing the bottom rung of the jobs that, that really it's good at because it's transactional, allowing us all to move up one level. And then as AI gets better and better and better, then potentially move up levels and levels and levels to the point where we just sit there and think all day. Perhaps that would be kind of cool. It would.

Leanne ElliottI also would like to congratulate the writer of that article for coming up with that title. I'm not sure it's exactly what the article is saying, but congratulations because you made Al read it and share it.

Al ElliottYes, you did. Well done. Talking of articles, I believe you've seen something else, Leanne?

Leanne ElliottI did. I came across a study about diversity in hiring practices, and I thought it was really interesting and kind of worrying. There might be a theme to my stories this week. Maybe I'm in a funny kind of mood. Diversity has become a hot topic in the business world. You know, you've heard us talk about it loads of times, and companies across industries are trying to diversify their team. And there's a good reason for that, because all the research shows us that the more diverse teams are, the better they are at problem solving, driving innovation, high performing— the list goes on. In fact, companies with greater gender and racial diversity are 35% more likely to financially outperform their competitors, and that's according to McKinsey, and they tend to know what they're talking about. So to support these goals, many companies use pro-diversity messaging. You've probably seen this in company mission statements or marketing materials where they basically emphasize their commitment to inclusion, collaboration, and building a diverse workforce. But here's the thing: a recent study published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology— so a proper one— found that pro-diversity messages can actually reinforce bias rather than reduce it. Counterintuitive, I know. So in the study, participants participants were asked to evaluate job candidates for a tech company. Half of the participants saw a pro-diversity message about the company while the other half didn't. And what the researchers found was really quite striking. When white conservative participants were exposed to the pro-diversity message, they were more likely to favor white candidates over non-white candidates, even when those non-white candidates were more qualified. So it seems that even the mention of diversity triggered a defensive response where participants felt their own group was under threat. But in the group that didn't see the diversity messaging, this bias was much weaker. So the study mainly looked at participants in the US, so it's not quite yet clear if these findings would apply in other countries. Still, it sends a pretty strong message. Companies need to be aware that while pro-diversity messaging might work for more liberal managers, it could actually have the opposite effect on more conservative white managers. The authors suggest that organizations might need to try and find different approaches, like tying diversity directly to things like promotions. The key takeaway though, Al, I think is this: it's not just enough to talk about diversity, to have pro-diversity messaging. Businesses need to actually look at how their diversity efforts are impacting things like hiring, retention, and advancement for diverse employees. So in short, action over words. Thoughts?

Al ElliottI'd be interested to see the study run over a larger group of people, number of participants, because it's possible that we're just saying those people who currently believe it's all woke bullshit, and they tested those people, well, they were more likely to recruit people who are white and like them. Because that's what they already believed. Whereas if a bigger study, you might get more and more people, um, who— some of whom already do believe in diversity. And so therefore the results might be slightly different if you had a larger sample set, I think you scientists call it.

Leanne ElliottUh, sample. Lovely though. I'm loving that your little science brain is working. Um, yes, similarity bias is, is an actual thing. What was interesting about that study though, and I think, I think, I think you're absolutely right, Al, And I think the thing that also means that more research is needed, because it's very nuanced. So the, the— it was the same kind of demographic of participant, a white conservative. That bias wasn't seen in the sample that weren't exposed to the pro-diversity messaging, or it was, but it was much weaker. So is the— is this researcher said that messaging was triggering something for them to then Um, make more biased decisions. So yeah, so I think it's, it's an interesting— isn't it? I think it's an interesting play now and, and relationship between communications, marketing, people and culture, HR, to really kind of embed diversity into the, into the culture, into the DNA of an organization, and win the hearts and minds of people who may be more skeptical. But yeah, interesting, I thought.

Al ElliottOkay, after this very short break, we'll be back with the very first of our hot takes from a podcasting legend, And of course, the world-famous weekly workplace surgery. Do not go anywhere, or I'll come to your house and put wasps through your letterbox.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast—that's us, by the way—and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common.

Leanne ElliottWe both use behavioural science to help people do better at work, and we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

Al ElliottAnd two out of three of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Seamless, seamless.

Al ElliottTell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like Their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the worlds of politics, business, and brands as well.

Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

Al ElliottIt can.

Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?

Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts. But come back. Yeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.

Leanne ElliottWelcome back to our brand new segment this week, Hot Takes, where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of thought leaders and influencers. We are asking them for their boldest insights, whether it's a controversial prediction or an unpopular opinion. Nothing is off limit, my friends. What's really happening in the world of work? That's what we want to know. What's broken? And what, for the love of RuPaul Charles, is coming next? And we are starting strong. Our first hot take is Phill Agnew, an exceptional human, an expert in behavioral science, and host of the UK's number one marketing podcast, Nudge, which is of course brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. That's just a coincidence.

Al ElliottWhat I love about Phill is that he does his homework. His opinions are based on his hands-on actual experience, research, and reflections. This is a hot take with substance. Let's go hear from Phill. I'm Phill Agnew. I run Nudge Podcast, which is the UK's number one marketing podcast. I wouldn't say I'm famous at all, but if anybody does know me, it's probably because they've listened to that podcast before. So I get really peeved at these marketing and business gurus who say that there's these silver bullets, these tiny things you can implement into your business or your marketing that will have a ginormous impact. The email sequence that will turn your business into a high profitable business, or the social media thread that you can create that will instantly get you more followers, or the 3-step YouTube strategy that will mean that you are extremely successful on YouTube. And I get annoyed about them because on Nudge, I basically spend all of my episodes and all my time testing out these approaches, testing out these biological behavioral science principles to see if they work. And I've tried them and they really don't work. And what I'm slowly learning, mainly from the behavioral science and psychology literature, which is what my podcast focuses on, but also just from my own trial and error, my own tests, is that often the opposite is true. Silver bullets aren't your key to success. Your key to success— is sustained hard work and ensuring, this is the important bit, ensuring that your audience can see that work. So this is what the literature says. When you can see the effort and hard work that goes into creating something, you will be far more likely to value it. So Ryan Burrell, in his operational transparency research, set up all these different examples of studies in restaurants and fast food. places, Krispy Kreme, Subway, high-end restaurants, and would do A/B tests where half of the people who went into the restaurant saw the chefs cooking their meal. So saw the Subway sandwich maker, saw the Krispy Kreme donuts being created, saw the fine dining meal being put on the plate really neatly because there was either a glass or just no wall between the kitchen and the dining area, or they couldn't see their meal being prepared. What Ryan Borrell found Was fascinating. Everybody is willing to pay more for the meal, enjoys the meal more, and will be more willing to come back to the restaurant if they can see the meal being created. And here's what's really interesting. The chef does a better job and enjoys creating the meal more when they can see the customer as well. So it's 2 ways. We value effort. When we can see the effort being put into the thing we've created, we will enjoy it more. And this is true for all sorts of businesses. So I did a Reddit ad where I, in one version of the ad, said, learn 6 of the great marketing lessons I've heard this year in my end-of-year nudge special. So that was the control. And then in the variant where I talked about the effort I'd put in, I said, I've spent 480 minutes listening to marketing experts this year. Here are the 6 lessons I've learned. That variant where I talked about the effort had a 45% higher click-through rate. So people value effort. And I'll finish on this, Leanne, because I know I'm having a proper rant now. But the most recent example I had of this, I just spoke to Mike Norton, the Harvard professor who was behind the IKEA effect, for those of you who know that effect. And we chatted about handwritten letters. And he's got this idea that handwritten letters are very powerful. Yeah. Not because people love reading handwritten letters, but because people can intuitively see that lots of effort went into that communication. It's really hard to write a handwritten letter. And he said to me, oh, why don't you run a little test? Why don't you write a handwritten note to some of your email subscribers and see if it makes them more likely to do something? So for 40 subscribers who I got over the past month, I sent 20 of them just a normal email, Saying, can you leave a review for my podcast? And then I sent another 20 a picture of a handwritten note that I'd written myself. It said the exact same thing as the email. It said, will you leave a review of this podcast? Didn't change the copy, didn't change the content of the ask at all, just the amount of effort that I put into the creation of the content. So handwritten versus email. Those who received the standard email, Only 2 of the 20 left me a review on Nudge. Those who received my handwritten version, my effortful version, 9 out of the 20 went and left me a review. So pretty incredible. And that's not scientifically reliable. It's not peer-reviewed. But for me, it's fantastic. As a marketer, I'm like, well, this really works. I'm going to start writing handwritten responses. It did hurt my hand quite a lot, so I won't do it too much. But when I really need someone to take action, it really does work. So that's my hot take. love these ideas of silver bullets. I believe in the idea that hard work really pays off. And if we do work hard on something, we should make sure our audience knows.

Leanne ElliottWhat I love about what you do, Phill, and what I love about Nudge is that I see the applied science, and that's what I live for, is applied science. So everything you're saying there was in the context of marketing and building connection. is exactly transferable in terms of leadership in the workplace.

Al ElliottYeah, there's a study, and I don't know who it's by, and I won't be able to give much information on it, but I do remember reading about it, which analyzed how much employees appreciated and had work satisfaction, basically based on who their bosses were. So, did a certain type of boss create better work satisfaction? And the study which I'm referring to was really interesting because it essentially found that bosses who were competent and had experience doing the job that the employee was doing were far more effective bosses, essentially. The employees felt far higher job satisfaction when they knew that their boss had been through the same crap that they'd been through, that they'd worked on the same tasks that they had. They might not be as good as the job that the employee is doing, but we really value it when our bosses—

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al Elliotthave actually experienced the thing we're getting frustrated with or enjoying or whatever it might be. Everyone can probably think of a boss they've had who doesn't know how to do their job and perhaps undervalues their job because of it. And that's horrible. And we feel that because we know that they haven't put the effort in. We know intuitively, why should I trust my boss's judgment when they can't even do what I do, when they don't know how to do what I do, when they haven't spent 5 years in my job? That's really hard to appreciate what your boss is telling you to do because they don't have that empathy because they haven't put the effort in. So that's one application where I think it rolls over really nicely. But there's all sorts of applications. I think even something as small as maybe you want people to come back to your office. Your request to get people back to the office will be far more effective If you put more effort into the communication. So imagine 2 variants. One is blanket email to the company from the CEO, which just says, we need you to be working in the office 4 days a week from next Monday, full stop. That's not going to be a very— well, it might be very effective. It might get people back to the office, but it'll probably have spillovers, which will be really bad. Job satisfaction will increase. will decrease, turnover rate will increase because people won't really feel like they've got much autonomy, drive, purpose, all the things that they need. Instead, imagine if you did a really effortful version of that communication. Imagine if you sent every individual in your organization a personalized message with their name and perhaps even with a picture of the desk that they can sit on for those 4 weeks, individual pictures saying, here's your desk, it's ready for you, we've cleaned it, we've got you a nice seat. It's nice and it's near the window. The Wi-Fi's working. If you put that effort in, suddenly that communication, which is the same communication, come back to the office 4 times a week, doesn't feel like an arrogant, annoying, faceless ask. It feels personal and it feels attractive. It's like, oh yeah, there's my desk. Maybe you can also say who you'll be sitting near. Oh yeah, it'll be nice to catch up with those people. This is something Rory Sutherland says. The value people put on communication is in direct proportion to the effort that goes into that communication. A proposal at McDonald's to your boyfriend or girlfriend will fail because it's a really bad place to propose. If instead you take your boyfriend or girlfriend to a 3-star Michelin restaurant, drive there in a chauffeured Rolls-Royce, and give your partner roses on Tower Bridge on the way home, and then pop the question, it'll be far more effective. The effort you put into your communication will be in direct proportion to the likelihood that people will agree to the request in the communication. I think the same can be said for all sorts of business communication, just like that work from home to work from the office example there.

Leanne ElliottThere is no silver bullet. There is no ping pong in the break room. There is no unlimited holiday policy. There is none of all of that stuff. There is no silver bullet. It takes a lot of work, a lot of effort, a lot of intention, and a good chunk of science as well. Um, I love it. I love Phil. I love how considered he is. I love how articulate he is. It's why his podcast is so good. Um, it's just, it's just, I thought he framed that brilliantly, like, like, sit down because you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to swallow this and take this in. There is no silver bullet. Effort is infinitely valued more, um, than, than just quirks and fads.

Al ElliottAbsolutely. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. And it's not easy. So not many people are doing it. I think there's a big trend now for people, maybe Gen Z, maybe Gen Alpha, go, I want to be a YouTuber because they think all they do is go around, do silly things, film it and stick it on YouTube. Even if being a YouTuber is easier than doing other things, still an awful lot of work. As Phil pointed out, there's nothing you don't— there's almost no job in the world where you can just turn up. Do an hour's work and get paid a million pounds. Maybe there's maybe like Kim Kardashian, but then Kim Kardashian—

Leanne ElliottShe's hustled.

Al ElliottShe has worked her entire adult life. Um, she's given up all sorts of things, including the sacrifice, I think, of being married to Kanye West. Um, and she's done also all sorts of things. So effort is what is required. There is no shortcut. I'm sorry, kids, you have to work hard.

Leanne ElliottI also like the, the handwritten letter story. I thought that was, that was delicious. I might, I might try some of that myself. Um, you tried some of that, didn't you, with, um, do you do greetings cards?

Al ElliottYeah, yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah, greetings cards instead of cold, uh, instead of cold emails. That worked relatively well. There's all sorts of other stuff like just going the extra mile. Like, I remember I used to deliberately, when I go— when I was first starting out, uh, with my web development agency, I used to go and see clients and then I deliberately mentioned, oh, have you read this book? Oh, it's really, really good. Knowing that as soon as I got back in the car, I ordered the book, got it sent via Amazon to their address the very next day. Um, and they absolutely loved it, but it was just going the extra mile, which I think is so important.

Leanne ElliottAnd that's what's so important for leaders as well, the point that, that Phill brought it back to, you know, that people want to see the effort from their leaders in terms of how they're investing in, in their own mental health and the development of their employees, in the, um, the culture of the organisation. Yes, you know, employee satisfaction depends on bosses who are, who are competent, I saw another piece of lovely research recently that was saying that status is actually a result of, is correlated with how competent you're perceived to be and how kind you're perceived to be. And I thought that was nice because usually we see status as powerful, kind of aggressive types that will demand status, whereas status is earned. So yeah, lovely, Phill, fabulous, thank you. What a way to kick off the Hot Takes series.

Al ElliottMore of that next week. Uh, but just for now, I think it is time for our world-famous Workly Weekly Surgery, which is my favorite time of the week because I get to put your questions to Leanne. Leanne, are you ready for question number 1?

Leanne ElliottYes.

Al ElliottOne of my senior account managers who's been with us for 8 years has been underperforming for the last 6 months. Client feedback has been increasingly negative, and I've noticed a drop in the quality of their work. I've tried having informal chats and providing more support, But there's been no improvement. This employee was once a star performer and has strong relationships with long-term clients. I'm torn between loyalty to a longstanding team member and the need to maintain our agency's reputation. How do I address the situation without damaging team morale or losing valuable client relationships?

Leanne ElliottIt sounds like you've done a lot of the, what, of the right things already, the more informal things, the kind of, I've noticed some change in your behaviour, I've noticed some You know shifts in in how you're managing work. Is everything okay? What's going on? Is there anything I can help you with? You know the the I guess the first the first assumption might always be that they're burning out, they're struggling with mental health, something is going on at home, something shifted, and these changes in behavior, these changes in performance are are a result of of these changes they've experienced. Once you've kind of gone past that, and depending on what the outcome of that was, it still sounds like there's something going on. So for whatever reason they're not telling you about it, you need to try and dig a little bit deeper, or indeed try and get somebody else to dig a little bit deeper. For example, if you have a mental health first aider, it might be worth putting them in contact. Equally, it could be an occupational health referral potentially, um, if there's something that's changed within their circumstances that's impacting their work. Um, ultimately it's a performance management issue at this point, isn't it? If you've kind of gone through all those routes, um, performance management always sounds a scary and like it's just a hop, skip, and a jump until you actually let somebody go, but it's not really. A great performance management process will actually help a person improve. A performance improvement plan, a PIP. So, I think we need to probably take a more formal route if we're exhausted the informal, more support-based options. We should still pursue them, but it sounds like we need to get out the performance management paperwork. The thing, the key to that is going to be doing it in collaboration with your member of staff, saying that, you know, it's a really hard situation to, for both of you to be there, for things to get to this point. Um, you're worried for them, you're worried for the performance of the team, you're worried for the experience of clients. It's, it's a critical point now where this needs to be, um, performance needs to be looked at. What can we do? What's, what's changed? What's changed in the clients you're working with, the work that you're doing, the people you're working with the tools and resources that you have, because you used to be a high performer and now you're not. So what's shifted? And by identifying that, you'll be able to put together a performance improvement plan in collaboration with that member of staff. Something has shifted, whether it's personal or professional, something has changed. And then I think once, you know, you go through that process, is sticking to it, having regular check-ins, having set targets that you agreed to meet. And if it goes down the route where they're not meeting those expectations, then it might be time to let them go. Usually, in my experience, at that point, people usually make the decision for themselves if it's no longer a sustainable position for them, for whatever reason that might be. But yeah, I think, I think we're there. What do you think, Al?

Al ElliottYeah, I totally agree. I think you You hit the nail on the head there by saying, yes, all right, you can look at PIPs, you can look at performance, you can look at in collaboration with, but, but really, 7 and a half years they've been great, 6 months they've not. So Leanne says there's been something has happened 6 months ago. It could be personal, it could be that you brought on someone else, it could be perhaps that someone else got promoted and they weren't happy about it. There could be anything, but until you ask them what happened, You're not going to know. And so that seems to be your first port of call. Don't be subtle about that. Well, maybe speak to Leanne before you speak to them, but I wouldn't be subtle about it. I'd be sitting down and go, 6 months ago, talk me through. There must have been a point where something changed. Tell me honestly. You can tell me anything, even if something I've done.

Leanne ElliottAnd expect this to be a pretty long conversation, a coaching conversation. If you've not got any coaching experience, that's okay. I would say, you know what, just, just find, find a coach, a Um, a career coach could be a good person to go to. A leadership coach could be good as well. Um, and just experience what it is to be coached. That's going to give you a good clue already into the types of questions that you want to be asking, asking how you can, um, how listening is going to be, going to be the key to that. Because it could be— well, yeah, it could take you half an hour before the person actually even starts to open up. So it's going to require a lot of patience as well. But yeah, it's, it's hard, isn't it? Because on one hand, it's like, I don't want to— you're right, Al, 7 and a half years versus 6 months, something, something shifted somewhere. And by understanding that, you'll probably have a better idea of what to do. Equally, you're right, it's 6 months of poor performance. You need to start putting steps in place to, to fix it because it's— it doesn't sound like it's going to get magically better overnight. It sounds like this is a sustained period of underperformance. So yeah, it needs, it needs addressing.

Al ElliottExcellent. Okay, on to our second question, Le. This person writes, I'm a partner at a mid-sized accounting firm with about 50 employees. Our industry is known for long hours, especially during tax season, but I'm growing increasingly concerned about the work-life balance of our team. Hmm, this could go one of two ways. We've implemented some measures like flexible working hours and occasional work-from-home days, but I still see signs of burnout. Productivity is slipping, and we've had a few valuable team members leave, citing stress and overwork as reasons. I want to create a healthier work environment, but I'm worried about how this might affect our competitiveness and client service. I don't really see how those two are linked, but maybe Leanne will tell us. How can I improve work-life balance without compromising the quality and efficiencies our clients expect? I started off, I'll be honest, I started with thinking, oh, you know, well done, you think about the right things. And then, I'm so sorry, person who wrote in, but you became a little bit of an accountant halfway through that and started looking at money and weights and costs and measures and that kind of thing. So, Leigh, what, what do we need to know?

Leanne ElliottOh, yes, of course, you have busy, busy seasons. Lots of industries do. High workloads should be the exception, not the norm. And it sounds like they're the norm. And then you're going from high workload to a really high workload during those busy periods. It's not sustainable. It's just not sustainable. And you can think about, well, you know, if we, if we reduce the amount of effort that I want from my team or the number of clients they have on their, their caseload, that's going to impact the amount of money I'm going to make. What are, you know, the, the service we give our customers? If you're— the truth is you— it's already impacting your customers because you've got people leaving, your productivity down is down, and your morale is low. That ship sailed. Your customers are already being impacted. So now it's about damage limitation. And, and really, it sounds like it's not— what you're doing is not sustainable. And there can't be many more clearer signs than people leaving your business and citing workload and stress for the reasons they're doing that. There's two, there's two ways to, to go. First of all, I would recommend running an employee engagement and wellbeing survey like the RX-7 that we offer, or there are others out there. The HSE Management Standards is free and equally effective, um, just to really understand where the pressure points are in the, in the workplace at the moment, in the culture. It could be high workloads, it could be more around, um, a lack of autonomy and decision-making, which is slowing processes down, which is then increasing workloads.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottIt could be that flexible working that you've introduced is having a detrimental effect because people aren't sure how to set their own work-life boundaries. It could be people are working until midnight, getting up at 5, and that is why this stress is escalating, because they're not investing in rest and recovery time. There could be lots of different reasons, so we need to understand the data points as to— now we know what's happening, we need to understand why. And the only I'm going to understand why it's digging a bit deeper. Alternatively, if you wanted to follow a more process-driven route, you could undertake an operations audit of processes. As I said, there could be bottlenecks there between team members, things that aren't happening as quick as they could. It could be an issue with some of the software you're using. There's lots of things that could exasperate workload if processes are slow. So, that could be worth looking at as well.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottI'd do the employee engagement stuff first, because if you use a good tool, it's going to suggest that operational processes might be a problem. Yeah, you're going to need to get curious and get to the why, because the issue is here. Your workload is high, your stress levels are high, it's impacting your turnover rate, and it will, whether you know about it yet or not, will be impacting the satisfaction of your customers. So, time to act, my friend.

Al ElliottLet's just talk from a slightly more macro level here on your business. If your employees are overworked, then either you are trying to be tight and get them to do more work than actually is feasible because you won't pay more money, or perhaps your margins are so slim that they don't support having more people in. Either way, from a macro point of view, your business isn't sustainable.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Al ElliottBecause if you have to, absolutely have to squeeze the maximum out of everyone, Then they're going to leave. That will cost you much more in the long run. Leanne said, what did you say? It's two and a half times the annual salary if someone leaves you to replace them. Call you cost you more in the long run. And I mean, the other thing to consider, perhaps we've mentioned before AI. Perhaps we could have some AI agents that could take some of the more transactional work off them. But the fact is that you can do all the things that Leanne said, but if people are being squeezed, squoze, and squoze like a sponge. sponge and they're getting every single possible minute you possibly can get out of them for the work, nothing you do is going to fix this. You're going to end up always having problems.

Leanne ElliottVery good point, Al. Very good point. Oh yeah, it's worth thinking about, isn't it, whether actually just fundamentally your business model doesn't work.

Al ElliottYou're either charging too little or you're wanting to take home personally too much profit. We've all known people like that, haven't we? Yes, we have. Yes, we have. Excellent, Leanne. Um, I love how I can throw anything at you and you just, you just deal with it. I love that. Let's try this last one then. As the director of a small environmental nonprofit, I've got 12 full-time staff. I'm facing a challenge with employee engagement. Our team is passionate about our mission, but I sense growing frustration due to limited resources and high workloads. Now, this isn't a copy and paste from the previous letter. The reason why I want to do this one is because it's a nonprofit and it's got some slight Nuance. Now, this person writes: "We can't compete with corporate salaries, and our budget for perks or team building activities is minimal. I've tried implementing an employee recognition program and flexible working hours, but morale still seems still seems low." Here's the bit we might be interesting. We are considering going to be a B Corp, but the investment is frankly terrifying. I'm at a loss for how to boost engagement with our already stretched. Budget. I'm a regular listener, seeing— so I know there are no silver bullets. Well done. But without much budget, I am really struggling to think of ways to keep our amazing team motivated and more importantly, stop anyone from leaving. So the key message here, I think, is it's a not-for-profit. Um, they don't have a huge budget. They did mention B Corp. Now, I suspect that you might want to talk a little bit more about Reason. But anyway, carry on, Leanne. I want to put words in your mouth.

Leanne ElliottThis is tricky and one that I'm actually reading more and more about recently, other business owners who are experiencing a similar scenario. The, the, the challenge is, yes, we're going to derive meaning and purpose from our work and be engaged in our work if it has reason. Um, you know, the, the company has a mission, and in environmental NFP, I'm sure you have a a really great mission that aligns with people's values and they're really engaged in, in that mission. What that means is that as, as humans, when we're engaged in a cause, we put in extra effort into our roles. We go above and beyond because we really believe in, in the work that we're doing. The challenges with that is, is, is, as before, really with the previous answer, it's not really sustainable constantly. We can't always be at 100. It's just not possible. We need times to, to rest, recharge, recover, and also just days where workloads are just a bit lighter. You know, it's just kind of the way it is. The other tricky thing really is that I think there's, for too long, there's been an understanding that you can work in a job that has purpose, or you can work in a job that gives you a decent salary. And I think we're, we're trying to move towards a world where, where both things can be true. So I understand if you can't compete with corporate salaries, but I mean, what is the salary situation? Is it time to do a salary review and just make sure you're competitive with your peers, with other NFPs out there, to make sure you're giving people a fair wage? Is there a way to, I don't know, bonus structure it somehow depending on certain deliverables or or campaigns. Again, it sounds like workloads probably need to come down in some way, or you need to look at getting some extra support in at low cost. You could look at things like apprentices, apprentices programs. Um, that is much cheaper to bring in apprentices because you're giving them incredible learning opportunities alongside, um, their area of, of study. Um, it could be that you look at work experience as a way in, or internships as a way in, particularly because the gens that are so enthused about environmental, um, factors, they could be really excited by that. It could be that you can outsource some of the more administrative jobs overseas, offshore it to a team that is, is fairly cost-effective to run. I've seen lots of things from South America and Africa recently in terms of a push here for Um, kind of administrative, um, financial services type support. I think there's lots of kind of business stuff you can do to kind of go, what, what can be done to either bring in more resources at a lower cost, um, increase the amount of revenue that we're making? Because you're nonprofit, that doesn't mean that you, you don't— you can't increase your revenue. It just means that, you know, it's then going to go on costs Isn't it? That's how a nonprofit works, right?

Al ElliottMm-hmm.

Leanne ElliottYeah. So there's going to be business things that you can do there. And it might well be, as the owner of an NFP, maybe this could be a development point for you. Is there perhaps some, um, business coaching mentorship that you can engage with to understand ways to, to improve your, um, improve your P&L? So I think there's, there's things like that, but I think ultimately It's not sustainable, and we're seeing that now with the levels of burnout that are coming from people in, in not-for-profits. And it's, it's hard to— you don't see many of them publicly. They're usually behind something else because it's, it's a tricky thing, isn't it, coming out publicly about being burnt out and working in the charity sector? It can be a, it can be a bit uncomfortable. Um, I think a good example for it is looking at something like the NHS. Right? It's, it's, it's a very similar scenario there in terms of underpaid, overworked, underappreciated, ultimately high levels of burnout, high levels of absenteeism, and people, you know, nurses, doctors leaving in droves. Um, purpose doesn't replace everything else. We still need level wages, we still need stable work environments where we're recognized, where we have decent benefits. Um, and there's— again, we talked about this maybe a couple of episodes ago, the types of benefits you can bring in, um, as a smaller business. So go and look, look back at that. Ones that immediately come to mind is going to be things like Perks. You know, it's a fairly low cost, and Perks offers physical and mental health, um, services that, that could support people with the levels of stress that they're experiencing at the minute. There's a whole host of things to be done, but I, I— this is going to sound really brutal, but you're not going to be able to hide behind the fact that we're for for-purpose and nonprofit, um, it's not good enough. You know, if, if it's— you need to make sure you're providing an adequate work environment for your staff and where they are, they are healthy, um, and their stress is managed. That's actually an HSE legal obligation to do that stress test as well every 12 months. So make sure you're doing that. That might give you some clues. So yeah, lots of different things there. I think it, it probably requires A lot of reflection, looking at what you can do in terms of processes, what you can do in terms of extra resources, what you can do in terms of improved benefits, and a salary benchmarking exercise could be a really good idea as well, even just to give you the peace of mind that you are competing at a fair level with your peers rather than comparing yourself to corporate. Lots there, but it's— I think that's a really good point. It's within, it's within your power to solve this problem. And I think you can't kind of do the shrug and go, how can we compete with corporate? Well, you can't, but that doesn't mean you don't have an obligation to create a safe, healthy work environment for your people. So that's what you need to look at.

Al ElliottYeah, excellent advice. Couple of things I'd say to you. Yes, right, not-for-profit, but don't fall into that trap of going, oh well, we're just, you know, we, we do our very best. You might need some more money because as we said to the previous person, essentially you either have Not enough people to do the work, or not enough money to employ the people to do the— to employ more people. So maybe you need to get the team together and go, look, I understand you're all overworked. We need one more person, don't we? Do you know how much this costs? We can get it. We can get someone for about $25,000 a year. How do we get that money? Let's have an afternoon and let's chat about it. Maybe we go off and we do some events. Maybe we go off and we do some fundraising. Maybe one of them has got an auntie who's got a business. who would very much like to support us by potentially lending us someone for an afternoon a week to help with us. There's other things you can look at, like potentially the AI agents taking over work. I know that's a bit more of a nerdy solution, but you already know that just by bringing in, for example, bringing in Pirckx, which is P-I-R-K-X, um, which is a great service, but bringing that in isn't going to solve it on its own. Doing all the things Leanne said isn't going to solve it on its own. You need to reduce the amount of work that people are doing unless— and this is the thing, I, when I read your letter, I said, letter? How old am I? When I read your email, he said, you said, but morale still seems low. You haven't given us any reason why you think it's low. Perhaps it's not. Perhaps that's just the way the culture is. When you go from 12 to 13 employees, your culture will change dramatically. Statistically, that's the way that most But it's normally around that time. It will change dramatically. Maybe this is the new culture, that it's not quite as exciting as it was when there was 6 of you in a room. Now there's 12 of you. Perhaps things are diluted a little bit. So I would, before you'd go off and say there is a problem, I would just speak to Leanne and find out how you can find out whether morale is actually low or whether actually you're just reading into things that aren't even there.

Leanne ElliottFair, fair. I think it's, it's, it's always a combination, isn't it? And I think this is where, you know, culture isn't Workplace culture isn't always what people tell you it will be. Workplace culture is also processes and systems and rituals and ways of working and leadership, and it's all intertwined. You know, the clients we work with will, will run an engagement and wellbeing survey, and that will feed directly into their operational strategy. It's all one big system. It's one big organisation. All these things weave together. Um, so yeah, it sounds like you also need to do some digging.

Al ElliottYeah.

Leanne ElliottUm, and, and put on your, your big pants because this is, this is going to require transformation, I think.

Al ElliottAnyway, Leanne, that was fabulous. Thank you so much for that. I think we're out of time, aren't we?

Leanne ElliottYes, we are. A reminder though, before you go, if you like to hear stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are definitely right up your street.

Al ElliottAnd if you liked today's episode, then you're gonna love next Tuesday where we do exactly the same. We'll more of our weekly news roundup, our brand new October segment called Hot Takes with a brand new person, and of course, the world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I put your questions to Leanne. Lee, before we go, anything to add?

Leanne ElliottOnly to say, if you wouldn't mind subscribing, clicking follow, it really does help, help us bring our content to even more people, keep bringing you more content. And if you have a question, an idea, a news article A hot take indeed. Drop us a message. All of our contact details are in the show notes.

Al ElliottWe will see you next week. Bye-bye.

Leanne ElliottBye-bye.

Al ElliottBye-bye. Love you. Bye-bye. Love you. Bye-bye. Bye. Now you hang up.

Leanne ElliottNow you hang up.

Al ElliottNo, you hang up.

Leanne ElliottYou hang up. Then you're in the right place. Every Tuesday we bring you our weekly news roundup. Our October segment called New— our October segment called Hot Takes. Sorry, struggling with this.

Al ElliottResearch is reflections. It's a hot take with a substance. Let's go hear from Phill.

Leanne ElliottWith substance, not with a substance. He's not like pushing Coke or something while he's giving his hot take.

Al ElliottEven if, even if, even if.

Leanne ElliottEven if.

Al ElliottEven if. Anyway, Leanne, that was that one.

Leanne ElliottYeah, we're out of stuff to talk about anyway. My computer's gone to sleep.