Episode 134 · 8 October 2024 · 49:29
Do childless bosses lack empathy? PLUS Gen-Z salary demands and Sonia Thompson’s Hot Take on Inclusion
Do childless bosses lack empathy? PLUS Gen-Z salary demands and Sonia Thompson’s Hot Take on Inclusion
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Story 1: Salary transparency and Gen Z talent
news roundup#salary-transparency#gen-z#talent#compensation
Story 2: Do childless bosses lack empathy?
news roundup#leadership#empathy#childless#management
Story 3: Cynicism's impact on leadership
news roundup#cynicism#leadership#workplace-culture#study
Hot Take: Sonia Thompson on inclusion vs. assimilation
Workplace Surgery: Defining company values in a growing team
workplace surgery#company-values#team-growth#workplace-surgery#values
Workplace Surgery: Fear of change in family business succession
workplace surgery#family-business#succession#change-management#fear-of-change
Workplace Surgery: Fostering culture in a remote team
workplace surgery#remote-work#culture#team-building#remote-team
Show notes
Do Childless Bosses Lack Empathy? PLUS Gen-Z Salary Demands and Sonia Thompson's Hot Take on Inclusion
This Week in Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) break down why 85% of Gen Z workers won't apply without a salary listed, whether childfree leaders really lack empathy, and how cynicism is quietly corroding leadership. Plus, Sonia Thompson's hot take on why assimilation is dead, and a Workplace Surgery tackling company values, family business succession, and culture across four continents.
🔥 Stories Covered
1. Salary transparency is now a Gen Z dealbreaker A new survey reveals that 85% of Gen Z workers are less likely to apply for a job if the salary isn't listed. Leanne dives into why transparency is no longer a nice-to-have — it's a recruitment necessity. The old "salary will be discussed at interview" line? As Al puts it, you wouldn't wait until the till to find out the price of your tin of tomatoes.
2. Do childless bosses lack empathy? Al tackles controversial research questioning whether childfree leaders are missing the empathy gene. The verdict? A resounding no. As Leanne points out, we've got enough "us and them" in the world without coming for the childfree — many of whom may have faced difficult journeys to get where they are.
3. Cynicism is killing leadership Leanne explores a new study on how cynicism impacts leadership and power dynamics. The takeaway: cynicism might feel smart, but it corrodes trust, collaboration, and psychological safety. As Ricky Gervais put it, cynicism is the lazy way of looking at the world.
🎙️ Hot Take: Sonia Thompson on Why Assimilation Is Dead
Sonia Thompson — inclusive marketing strategist, consultant, coach, and host of the Inclusion and Marketing Podcast — joins the show with a bold take: stop expecting people to assimilate.
Her argument? Brands and employers have spent decades asking people to fit into a pre-existing mould — how to behave, what to wear, what their life should look like. But the more we see younger generations and underrepresented groups demanding more, the clearer it becomes: forcing assimilation is a relic. The future belongs to organisations that acknowledge differences and create environments where everyone belongs without having to change who they are.
Sonia and the hosts dig into why representation is just "basic bitch step one," why inclusion is more than a buzzword, and why the parallels between marketing and company culture are impossible to ignore.
More from Sonia:
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/soniaethompson
- Podcast: inclusionandmarketing.com/author/soniaethompson
💬 Workplace Surgery
Three listener questions, tackled live:
- Company values in a growing team: A software consultancy founder who's grown from 15 to 60 employees in 18 months is feeling the pressure to define core values before an all-hands retreat. Where do you even start?
- Family business succession: A business owner is terrified that handing control to his daughter and her partner will destroy the company's traditional values. Is this about the business — or about letting go?
- Remote culture across continents: A CEO of a global marketplace is struggling to maintain a cohesive culture with a remote team spread across four continents. Leanne shares hard-won wisdom from managing a 100% remote team herself.
(Got a question? Submit it via the connect link below.)
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a chartered psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYes, yes. Welcome, welcome, welcome. A quick reminder, if you like guest interviews and hearing stories of how organizations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are right up your street. We bring you brand new interviews every single Thursday. I hope you enjoyed last Thursday. If you haven't listened to last Thursday, oh my goodness, biggest cheese we've possibly ever had on the pod. You will love it.
Leanne ElliottAnd if you'd like to keep up to date with the latest news around the workplace, then you're in the right place. Every Tuesday we bring you our weekly news roundup and of course our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I answer your questions. And this week we are back with our new segment Hot Takes, where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of thought leaders and influencers. We're asking them for their boldest insights, whether it's a controversial prediction Or even an unpopular opinion. Um, I think we can say that without copyright infringement from BBC Radio 1, can't we?
Al ElliottNot unless I sing the, the theme tune.
Leanne ElliottDon't do that, we'll get cancelled. Anyway, nothing is off limits, it really isn't. Um, we're trying to get to the bottom of what is happening in the world of work, what's broken, and what on earth is coming next. Um, we started strong last week with Phil Agnew, behavioural science expert and host of Nudge, the UK's number one marketing podcast. And this week we're bringing you another powerhouse in the world of business, marketing, and podcasting. Stay tuned for that.
Al ElliottBut first is your favourite time of the week, Leanne, isn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt is.
Al ElliottIt's time for the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottCue the jingle.
Al ElliottJingle being cued. Le, what have you seen this week?
Leanne ElliottI came across some interesting news about salary transparency I thought was worth talking about, um, and especially worth thinking about for small business owners looking to hire Gen Z talent, which is a question that seems to be coming up quite frequently on the, um, the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery at the moment. So a new survey has found that nearly half of UK employers plan to start including salary ranges in their job listings over the next 2 years, compared to 17% that are doing it now.
Al ElliottHurrah!
Leanne ElliottThis is a major shift, and it's largely driven by the need to attract younger workers. Gen Z are all about transparency. In fact, 85% of Gen Z workers say they're less likely to apply for a job if the salary isn't listed. They're also much more open about discussing their pay with colleagues, which is something older generations often avoided. So if you're running a small business and trying to appeal to younger talent, being upfront about salary could give you a real competitive edge. Right now, many companies are reluctant to share salary information because they worry it'll cause tension if current— if current employees find out someone else is making more. Should quite rightly cause tension if that is the case. But with the labor market tightening and Gen Z demanding more transparency, employers are realizing that salary transparency could actually be a smart move. It's not just about being fair, it's also about building trust and creating an environment where employees feel valued and motivated. And the trend also ties into a broader push for fair pay. The EU is planning to introduce stricter, stricter salary transparency by 2026, aiming to tackle the gender pay gap and bring more fairness to the workplace. Companies are starting to prepare for these changes by aligning their salary policies across the board. I've said it before, I'll say it again, if you're looking to attract Gen Z talent as a small business, this is a really good way to do it. Uh, transparent about your pay, be transparent Um, otherwise you won't be appealing to Gen Z and also potentially showing that your company may not be as modern, inclusive, or as fair as you would like to think it is. Um, so yeah, studies have shown employees who feel they are paid fairly— um, in my world, that's called procedural justice— they are more likely to stay with your company, which is crucial really for retaining top talent. Al, thoughts?
Al ElliottI think if you, if you're in a company and you say, well, we can't do this because Jeff might find out, you know, you're not doing it right because it's— we're gone are the days where, like, in, in the days of our dads, and our dads are boomer generation, they, they always said, oh, it's rude to talk about money. You could ask— I remember asking my dad how much he, how much he got paid, and he almost hit me around the face. He's like, you do not ask anything like that, blah, blah. Whereas now it's like, how much you get paid? And people will tell you. If you're keeping secrets between your employees, you're doing something wrong, I think.
Leanne ElliottYeah. Same. I have no idea how much money my dad made because I daren't ask. I don't know how much money my friends make, to be honest. We talk very broadly about it, but not transparently about it. And that's only one generation above. So yeah, it's an interesting shift. I think ultimately, if any company is worried about these laws coming in around pay transparency, it can only be because you've got unfair unfair pay happening in terms of like-for-like jobs or indeed the same job. So yeah, I think it's, I think it's, it sounds pretty basic, but will be really impactful. I think just that level of, level of transparency.
Al ElliottAnd in fact, this Thursday, we have got a couple of guys on who talk about the tech industry. And I think if I remember, I was doing that, I was going through their interview this morning. And if I remember, they say that in California now, it's the very largest state, I think, in America. California, you have to put on there a pay range now, whereas in some states you don't. Um, so I think maybe I've got that wrong, but you'll find out on Thursday how wrong I am. But they're saying it's just— it's— and that's made a massive difference because now if you go for a job in California, you know roughly what you're going to get paid.
Leanne ElliottAnd that's bollocks as well, isn't it? When like, oh, salary will be discussed at interview, it's like, how many rounds of recruitment do you want me to bounce through before we realize that this is just nowhere near my expectations in terms of salary?
Al ElliottExactly.
Leanne ElliottA waste of everyone's time.
Al ElliottYou wouldn't go to the supermarket and then wait till you get to the till to find out how much your tin of tomatoes was.
Leanne ElliottHow much?
Al ElliottYeah, I know, you can have that back.
Leanne ElliottAnyway, I will leave— I'll leave the link in the, uh, in the show notes. It's quite interesting, uh, succinct little article there. Al, what have you seen this week?
Al ElliottChildless people.
Leanne ElliottUm, I believe it's childfree. Is that the more politically correct term?
Al ElliottI believe it is, but this article, which I will link to, it's in Forbes I think, was actually talking about childless bosses. They didn't use the right phrase, and they're saying they might be missing the empathy gene according to some new research. The whole point is that someone is pointing out, or quite a few people are pointing out, including the author, that if you don't have children and you're a boss, then you can't be as good a boss than if you did have children because you don't have all the skills required to be a boss. I think it's a little bit, yes. I know Leanne's just looking slightly perturbed by this. Um, a bit for context, Leanne and I are childfree. Um, we're very happily childfree.
Leanne ElliottWoo!
Al ElliottYeah, we like money better than progeny. Uh, but, uh, but yeah, so the whole point of this article is saying that if you don't have any children, then number one, you lack skin in the game when it comes to the future, and number two, you're not very good at conflict resolution because you learn that as a parent. I'm not convinced by this one little bit, but I thought it was quite interesting to put it to Leanne and see her rant about this. Um, one big shot at a globe company is thinking of quitting because his new boss doesn't have kids. He reckons that the new boss just won't understand that he's got his dad duties, so might not be quite as lenient. Um, the article then goes on a slight bit of a tangent and saying Queen Elizabeth I and George Washington were childless and people loved it back then. They thought it meant total dedication to the job. I have a feeling that they had a word quota that they had to fill, and therefore they thought, I know, I've got 200 words on Queen Elizabeth I. But apparently now we're saying We want bosses who understand what it's like to have a child, understand what it's like to juggle, you know, the work and family. One anonymous worried job hunter said they were scared to work for a childless boss. This is what they said. I'm worried that this will sound bad, but during a conversation with my potential manager, she mentioned that she doesn't have kids. I've brought up that I have 2 under 5. It made me nervous. At my previous company, I worked for someone who was in their 40s who also didn't have kids. And he was never understanding when I had to call out of work last minute because my child got sick, or when I had to leave early to pick up my son from preschool. The question is, maybe, listener, can childfree bosses truly understand and sympathize what it means to be a working parent? I don't know. Lee, what are your thoughts?
Leanne ElliottDo we not have enough us and them already? Do we need to now start coming for the childfree people? And also, this could be highly offensive because you don't always necessarily necessarily know if people are childfree by choice.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottThey might have had some really difficult journey and, and got to the point where they're not able to have children, that they're probably even more empathetic and sympathetic to what you might experience as a parent because that's something that they desperately wanted as part of their life experience. So I think it's hugely offensive to, to even, even really point to the term childfree, let alone childless. Um, so that's one thing. Um, don't, don't make an assumption, please. Um, second, right, do we, do we remember what we talked about recently about how awful the state of management is across the world because they're not trained and the jobs that are recruiting managers don't even ask for managerial skills? Um, management, management is pretty rubbish across the board. If I'm being generous, I could then see why perhaps somebody who's a bit more pro-social, because they have children, like they say, they're used to different dynamics of personal relationship, may have better pro-social skills. And we know that also equates to, to better management in general, very broadly speaking. I'm not sure there's been any studies done, but I will have a look now if there has been any studies into childfree Um, people and their capability as managers, but I would feel fairly confident there is not correlation there in any single way, actually. Um, just because I am childfree does not mean I don't have the ability to empathize. It doesn't mean I don't have the ability to negotiate or, or resolve conflicts. Um, it's nonsense. It's nonsense. That is nonsense. Bringing more divides between people. And I'm— who, who published that?
Al ElliottIt was Forbes, which, um—
Leanne ElliottForbes?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottUh, oh, I— well, yeah, fair enough. But I would have thought you'd be a little bit better than that. That's a low— that's a low bar, that, in terms of articles.
Al ElliottAnyway, Lee, what else you seen?
Leanne ElliottUm, well, funnily enough, um, I came across an interesting study looking at cynicism.
Al ElliottAll right.
Leanne ElliottUm, so how cynicism impacts leadership and power dynamics in the workplace. Um, yeah, it's an interesting one, another one from the BPS. So cynicism is, if you, if you're not sure, if you need definition, um, it's basically the belief that people are motivated primarily by self-interest. Um, the self-absorbed little bundles of loveliness. Um, we've all seen this attitude at some point, I think. Um, a person who assumes the worst of others, perhaps the person who wrote that childless article, um, and believes people only do things for selfish reasons. Um, but here's the thing, while some people might think this mindset protects them, research is actually showing it holds people back in terms of leadership potential. So in this study, researchers found that more cynical individuals crave power, but not necessarily because they want to dominate others. Instead, their desire for power stems from a fear of being exploited. They're constantly on guard, assuming that if they don't take control, somebody else will. But what the research found was that cynical people were actually less likely to be seen as leaders by their peers. In fact, the study revealed that the least cynical individuals were 3 times more likely to be nominated as leaders in group settings compared to the most cynical. And the impact of cynicism doesn't stop there. Another study involving over 9,000 employees found that people who scored higher on cynicism were less likely to gain leadership roles over a 10-year period. Cynicism not only damages relationships but also stifles trust, the key ingredients for effective leadership, according to the researchers. The research also tied into the bigger conversation around the dangers of cynicism. Cynicism can feel like a defense mechanism protecting us from disappointment or betrayal. It's intuitive, but it does often backfire. Fire actually also referenced another study from 2009 that links cynical attitudes to higher rates of heart disease and cancer. So this mindset doesn't just harm our leadership potential; it could also affect our mental and physical health. So yeah, if you're listening to this and go, "Oh gosh, maybe I am. I am a bit cynical. What could I do to be less cynical and more hopeful?" Well, often cynicism can come from underlying stress or frustration. Um, so looking at ways to address these emotions directly through open communication or reflection could help them from escalating into a negative mindset. Uh, practice empathy. This also reduces cynical thinking. So understanding the challenges of others, perhaps those with children when you are childfree, um, that can help improve relationships and emotional health. And reframing positively, um, so focus on the positive aspects of a situation rather than dwelling on the negatives.
Al ElliottOur thoughts Do you know what? This is one of my pet peeves, and I'm, I'm really trying to dial down my, my frustration with this. There's something called the tall poppy syndrome where apparently— and I don't know if it works or not— but apparently a poppy, um, which grows higher, the rest of the poppies will wrap around it and pull it back down so it's the same, the same level as them. Although interestingly, I, I first thought for the first year it was a tall puppy syndrome, as in like P-U-P-P-Y, and I was like, I don't understand. But anyway, so that's where the problem with entrepreneurism, I think, is that you have to be generally uncynical and massively optimistic. And it really can damage your sort of your outlook on life when you say, well, wouldn't it be great if we had this? And someone, and someone, a negative Nelly comes along and goes, yeah, but you know, it's never gonna work because of this and that and the other. So whether it's in a work context, whether it's in a life context, you know, Leanne and I traveled the world.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottPlenty of people when we first started, they were saying, presumably you can't keep doing this because, you know, it's unsustainable. Nicest possible way, fuck off. This is our life. And for a lot of people, that is just maybe— some people, it's just looking out for us. But for a lot of people, it's a bit like, I wish I could do what you want. But rather than saying, oh, I could do what you want, I am going to find all the reasons why I can't do it. And I'm going to pull down your life and go, oh yeah, but look, they can't be happy because of this and that and the other. I'm sorry, I've got a soapbox. I'm going to step down off it, but I cannot abide people who are cynical.
Leanne ElliottThe thing is that cynicism is— what was it, Ricky Gervais said something really funny about cynicism? He's like, it's cynical people just trying to make other people as unhappy as they are.
Al ElliottYes, that's exactly it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think, I think that's the problem, isn't it? It's— and I think as well as that, it's, it's, it's very catching, cynicism. Um, any negative emotion is, because we're not, you know, evolutionary speaking, we're quite on the lookout for threats. We're not always the most sunny optimistic of people. We have to work at that through reframing and, and the like. Um, my point is cynicism breeds cynicism, and, and that's really detrimental. And this is why bringing it back to workplace culture defined by the worst behaviors tolerated— if you even have the smallest pocket of cynicism in your organization, it's just gonna spread like wildfire. So snuff it out.
Al ElliottIt would be interesting to see whether cynicism actually would help in some careers. So if you were an actuary or an insurance underwriter or something, then I suspect that you actually being cynical would probably be good for you, for your job. But I wouldn't like to be in that. I don't think I could ever be an actuary. Being an optimistic person, I think I'd be the worst insurance underbroker. Underbroker? Broker? Underwriter. That's the word I'm thinking of. Okay. After this very short break, we'll be back with this week's hot take from a thought leader in the world of inclusive marketing. And of course, the world-famous weekly workplace surgery. Don't go anywhere or I'll come to your house and I will swap your decaf coffee for caffeinated.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake fandoms for their bands. to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can balsamic vinegar make beer taste better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottWelcome back to our brand new segment, this week's Hot Take, where we uncover the truth and lies of work with the help of thought leaders and influencers. We are asking them for their boldest insights, their controversial predictions, and unpopular opinions. Nothing is off limits. This week's hot take comes from none other than Sonia Thompson, inclusive marketing consultant and host of the Inclusion and Marketing podcast. Sonia is also a regular contributor for Forbes and Inc. magazine and has more than 20 years experience in marketing and as an entrepreneur. Working with huge brands such as Johnson Johnson and GSK, she is on a mission to ensure more consumers and employees feel like they belong.
Al ElliottSonia's got such an interesting point of view. Her work sits at this intersection of diversity, inclusion, belonging, customer experience, and marketing. It's quite a busy crossroads there. And given the divisive nature of world politics and the world of work at the moment, her work is more important than ever. Leanne sat down with Sonia and asked for her hot take.
Leanne ElliottI'm Sonia Thompson. I am inclusive marketing strategist, consultant, and coach. I'm all about helping brands do a better job of attracting and retaining a bigger, more diverse, and very loyal customer base, just because more and more, we all have differences and brands need to account for that to stay relevant. My hot take is that Brands and employers need to stop expecting people to assimilate. Right. We are in a world where we've got so many different— every, all of us have a number of differences, right? For me, I'm a Black woman. I follow a gluten-free diet. I'm left-handed. I'm an ambivert, right? And so, I don't drink. I, my husband is from Argentina. Like, we've got this mixed race bilingual child, right? Like, so I've got a number of differences, but you might be working with, or who have customers who are neurodivergent, um, who have a different body size, who have some type of disability, who, um, English is not their first language or whatever it is. Like, they, from a cultural standpoint, um, the way in which they communicate is different. They're not necessarily accustomed to giving direct feedback right in the meeting or receiving direct feedback or constructive criticism right in the meeting or providing their thoughts. We all have so many differences, sexual orientation, family status. Are we parents?
Al ElliottAre we not?
Leanne ElliottAre we married? Are we not? And I think for a long time in the world of work, as well as from a marketing standpoint for brands, people have constructed this very narrow ideal.
Al ElliottHmm.
Leanne Elliottof what it is that people should do and behave and what their life should be like. And not that it was ever true. It's just that people probably shaved off those rougher edges or they hid parts of themselves whenever they came to work, or as consumers, they just accepted what was available to them. And that is not the case anymore. I read a study the other day that was on, um, The rise of the young Latino in the US. They are now 25% of all births. They are going to be really shaking up the workforce. They're shaking up the election from a political standpoint. They have influence that I think people are going to be surprised how much of it is. And one of the things this report had talked about was just how they are tired of assimilating and they are not going to do it anymore.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd the more we look at, I mean, we're seeing this with Gen Z, we're seeing this with more and more different people who are like, this way of operating does not work for me. And the more people use their voice, the more people say, you know what, this isn't acceptable. The more people just really acknowledge who they are and not decide that they're not going to conform anymore. Brands who want to have more consumers and a broader diversity of consumers are going to have to stop trying to force people to fit in this square, square peg that they've sort of identified, and they're going to have to expand. And people who want to attract top talent and retain that talent over time are going to have to recognize that there is more than one way to show up and do your job and do your job well. And we're going to have to change the way we think about and support people and even adjust our policies, um, and the culture at times to make sure that we are acknowledging that people are different and that we are giving them what it is that they need to succeed. And whenever the people that we're serving, our team members, our employees, the customers that we serve, whenever they are Given what they need to succeed, our brand, our business, our organizations succeed. Whenever they are forced to sort of conform, especially if they don't want to, they're going to go someplace else that doesn't require them to do that. And if they go someplace else, what happens? Your brand suffers, your organization suffers. So, let's stop getting people or expecting people to assimilate and conform. And as an organization, we Let's find a way to help people in a manner that's in keeping with our values, but support them and deliver experiences to them that make them feel like they belong and allows them to show up as their best selves, because they're able to show up in a manner that embraces the identities that they hold, rather than having to feel like they have to, like, shut it down and cut it out and really just kind of Put on this face of what they feel like is acceptable to be successful. Nobody wants to do that. We're over it. I think that organizations are stuck in their ways and like, they very much suffer from a, this is the way we've always done it. This is what works. I think part of this comes from the fact that many of these organizations Do not have much diversity at the top. They are coming from people who have very privileged identities, and the challenges that people have that would make it difficult for them to be successful in this environment so many years later, right? Where they have to go into the office five days a week, the people who are making those decisions don't have those same challenges because they probably had the privilege to have more support. Right. And so, they, unfortunately, people who are making these decisions are making them not necessarily with the best interests of the people in mind. They're making it with their sort of limited view of what work should look like. And I think if we, like, business evolves, right? People evolve, cultures evolve, and the way in which we work has to be It has to evolve to take into account the ways in which we are as a people are different in the way our lives work. And I think there's going to be a breakdown. I think what was it, the great resignation that we saw a couple of years ago. Um, and then there's quiet quitting, right? I think all these terms that I've heard you all talk about on your podcast, and they're going to see more of that happening, right? Like if they force people to do these things, because it's like people have had a taste of freedom.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottAnd it's like, why would we go back to this? So, if you're going to force me to go back to this, we're going to figure out ways to make it work. And those ways that they are going to make it work for them aren't going to be good for companies over the long term. I'm positive of it.
Al ElliottI think there is so much, so many parallels between marketing and culture, company culture, particularly around recruitment. And engagement. And I think that whatever's happening in marketing will filter through to company culture. So that's one of the reasons why I listen to Sonia quite a lot, and I think you should too, because whatever she says around the marketing and around what the customers want, it's going to be reflected by what, by what your employees want. And I think this idea of maybe going too far and saying we should all be part of the team— I think we should use the word assimilate. Let's all be, let's all be like a great team. It's not allowing for us to be individuals. Not— it makes you feel like you can't be diverse. It makes you feel that if you are different in some way, the way you think, the way you look, perhaps the way you act, that maybe you are there as that hire that perhaps is ticking the box. I don't know.
Leanne ElliottYeah, absolutely. You know, younger generations are quite rightly, um, demanding more, as are underrepresented groups. They're rejecting how things are and the current ways of working. And I think they're doing it in a way that's trying to make the world a better place for everybody. I think this is the ridiculous myth that diversity is out for, for the middle-class white male. And, and I think John Amici put it beautifully when he said, you know, diversity isn't out for men, it's out for mediocrity. And it's, it's a case of, you know, when you look at actually pay transparency, that makes the world better for everybody. Women and people of color, other minorities that might be underpaid. In terms of your article, Al, with the, you know, the childfree and coming from not being good managers, I am childfree. I'm also a woman and a wife and a friend and a sister and a Brit and a Liverpool fan and the custodian of 2 beautiful puppy dogs. There is so much to me as in my identity as an individual. Being childfree is just one aspect of that. So that's what I think Sonia is saying in terms of assimilation. We're not— I refuse to be pushed into a box of childfree and tarnished with some ridiculous notions that childfree people can't be good managers. That's ridiculous. So I think that's what Sonia is saying, is pushing back on that. I am more than just one identity characteristic that you're choosing to define me as in this moment. I'm much more than that. I am an individual, and we need to speak To those, to those, um, to our individual characteristics. If we really want, we're really authentically saying to people, you can bring your whole self to work.
Al ElliottYeah. And I think when you're talking about, um, brands definitely are more sort of prioritizing diversity and inclusion a little bit more, particularly in their marketing, which again, as I said, whatever happens in marketing a few years later will happen in recruitment and engagement, um, which is really good to see. Um, a bit, bit of a slightly off topic, but on Netflix there's a new series called Chaos, which I'm really, really enjoying. It's basically around the— it doesn't sound like the kind of thing I'd normally watch because I'm not clever enough, but it's around, um, it's around the Greek gods, Zeus and all that. And it's got— but it's set in modern day. Oh my goodness, the amount of diversity inclusion in that, in that particular, um, in that particular sort of series. It's just cool because you think, well, if that's what we're growing— now we're growing up seeing lots of different looking people, lots of characters that traditionally would have been men are now women. Like, this is cool. This is a sea change. This is, this is, this is, I think, in the right step, in the right direction.
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely.
Al ElliottAnd we—
Leanne Elliottand it's seeing as well that representation. I mean, it's, it's, it's a, it's a basic bitch step one, but it's one that we still haven't got there yet, um, is representation in, in these positions of power. And leadership is no exception. What was that stupid thing? There's more CEOs, or there's more C-suite called Dave in the FTSE 500 than there are women.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah.
Leanne ElliottCome on now. So yeah, representation is really, really important. Um, and I think that, that, that is something that hopefully will continue to, to shift. But organizations need to have the right policies, the right way to approach diversity, to, to embed it in their organization, in their culture, in their DNA. Not just saying we're a diverse company, we welcome, um, you know, applications from etc., etc. So thank you so much to Sonia Thompson. Thompson, what an amazing hot take. We are on a roll. Uh, next week, I think, I think I've got a pretty, a pretty big cheddar for you. I think we're waiting to confirm, but I think you'll be impressed.
Al ElliottExcited, excited. Tell you what else you're gonna be impressed by is Leanne's ability to answer your letters. They're not real letters, they're emails, but that you write. This is the time for the world-famous Weekly Workplace Surgery, where I read out your questions to Leanne, and she answers them. Leanne, I've got 3 lovely questions for you today. They're all a bit different. And I, yeah, I went into our huge sack of 10,000 letters we get each week. And I picked out, I read them all, and I picked these top 3 out for you. By the way, if you want Leanne to answer one of your questions, then just drop us an email, check the show notes, you'll see. And you don't, don't write to us because we don't— I never check the letterbox. Leanne, are you ready for question number 1?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottOkay. So I'm the founder of a software consultancy that expanded from 15 to 60 employees in just 18 months. Well done. We've been— yeah, we've been so focused on product development and scaling that I feel like any culture we have now is completely accidental. I know we need to define our core values, but I'm unsure where to start. Should we focus on innovation, work-life balance, customer obsession? Every time— now this is the red flag— every time I try to pin down our values, I worry I'm missing something crucial that they won't resonate with, with the diverse team that we've built? How do I go about selecting values that will guide us as we continue to grow?
Leanne ElliottYeah, first, I mean, congratulations on your extraordinary growth. That's fabulous. Um, yes, the culture that you have now will be completely different and, and accidental. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad culture. I think before, you know, you're at the point now in a bigger business where Where, yes, as the business owner, you can define the values, but it's gonna— they're gonna be much more impactful and much more likely that your people will engage with them if they're developed in consultation with your people. Um, what I would recommend that you do is run some kind of culture audit, employee engagement survey, that type of thing, to get some data, get some quantitative data. First of all, in terms of how people are thinking, feeling, and behaving within the business, we need to understand. Yeah. If this accidental culture is, is good, is bad, is it needs work, where it needs work. And a really good culture audit is gonna, gonna enable you to, to make those judgments. A really good culture audit is also going to collect qualitative data, so it's going to break down the survey into different sections, maybe around leaderships, maybe around vision and values, and it's going to ask people for their comments Um, on the questions they've just answered and to expand on, on their thinking. And often in these qualitative moments, we can see some clues as to what people really like about the culture, and that is probably going to point to an important value that the business might hold. So it usually gives you a really nice starting point and lots of nice rich data to then kind of go to your team through. listening events, through focus groups with a bit more structure to it. So rather than kind of going, what are our values? This is what I think, you're kind of going, I think it's time we relook at our values. Looking at the data from our culture audit, these are the themes that came up that seem to be important to you. Let's talk about them. How important are they? And how does that feed into our, into our mission, into why we get out of bed every morning and turn up for work, into what makes our work meaningful to us? It's gonna, it's gonna really accelerate your starting point and make it a much richer, more engaging exercise for your people, and therefore much more likely to have buy-in, and therefore much more likely to actually be able to use these values to shape your culture going forward. The final thing I'd say, they're core values. You don't want 10 of them. I have a strict, strict 5 limit cap, and even that's too many. You probably want 3. Strictly at 5 is your maximum. Just, just, just saying. What do you think, Al?
Al ElliottYeah. And I'd also recommend going back to— I can't remember exactly which episode, one of the early ones, like in the 40s or something. We had PJ Brady on, who was such an incredible guy, and he talks about brave, smart, kind. And those are like his formula for creating brand values. He goes and does it for companies, for large companies, small companies. It's definitely worth going back and listening to because Because he essentially tells you how you can— because by going and asking employees, what are our brand values, you're going to get a load of different ideas, some of them maybe not what you want. But if he says you put in the context of being brave, being smart, and being kind, and ask them to identify how you're brave, how as a company, how you're smart, how you're kind, how a manager's brave, smart, and kind, it gives you a really good framework. So it's definitely good. I'll put a link to his book in the, uh, in the show notes, and I'll try and find the episode he was on. Yeah. Okay, so question number 2. I started my precision engineering firm from a garage 30 years ago, and we've grown to a team of 27 dedicated employees. Now I'm at 60. I'm preparing to hand over the reins to my daughter and her partner. While I'm proud of what I've built and confident in their capabilities, I can't shake off this gnawing worry that they'll want to change everything once they take charge. My daughter and her partner have MBAs and experience in tech startups. They keep talking about Digital transformation and agile methodologies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against change and progress, but my company has always been rooted in traditional values— reliability, craftsmanship, personal relationships, etc. I worry their eagerness to modernize, they might undo decades of hard work and alienate a loyal customer base. Just last week, they suggested moving all our operations to the cloud, and I don't really know what that means. I want to step back, but I'm terrified of seeing my life's work dismantled the name of progress. Am I being too old-fashioned?
Leanne ElliottI mean, in short, yes, you are probably being a little old-fashioned. Um, but here's the thing, right? I think, I think we need to separate the 2 main things in your, in your question and under your 2 main concerns. One, that, that your life's work, this amazing thing that you've done, um, is gonna somehow be undone by the progress made by your daughter and their partner. I think you need to try and detach the two. So thinking about, this is my life's work. How do I internalize this achievement? How do I reflect on it in a way that makes me feel great and awesome and makes that life work standalone wonderful, even if you sold the business tomorrow and never had anything to do with it or saw it ever, ever again?
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottYou're gonna have that, um, that internalized achievement that remains part of your identity as a successful entrepreneur and business person that did an awesome thing with their life. Because regardless of what happens when your daughter and their partner take over the business, you're gonna have to step back and let them take over the business. I mean, who knows? I don't know enough about your business to know that if doing exactly the same thing for the next 20 years will mean a sustainable business. It seems unlikely because there aren't businesses where— many businesses where doing the exact same thing for 20 years means they're still sustainable. Usually, we need some change, innovation to keep up with the market and evolve. Blockbuster, you know, I think that's— was it Blockbuster that were offered to buy Netflix and they turned it down or something? Is that true?
Al ElliottI think so.
Leanne ElliottOh, it's the best business urban legend ever written. Um, so yeah, I don't, I don't know enough about all that, but from a, from a psychological perspective, the dangerous position you're in is, is one, being able to, to kind of detach yourself from the business and not kind of get involved. Um, and second, not being able to recognize this incredible achievement for what it is, regardless of what, what the next chapter of the story holds for that business that is no longer yours.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne ElliottI think this is going to require some coaching, maybe even some, some counseling or therapy to, to really, as I said, I keep saying internalize it because that's what we need to do. We need to absorb that whole experience into part of our identity as a person moving forward as a retired entrepreneur and business owner. Check out again, um, in a previous episode, Stephen Short for all—
Al ElliottEpisode 26.
Leanne Elliott26, thank you. For all the much more tactical side of it and logistics of actually going through this. He does touch on the psychology as well. He is a psychologist, but he's much more practical in terms of the execution. So, there might be some tips there as well in terms of how you can let this go. There's a really great change model called the— and I've mentioned this before— called the Bridges Change Model, a psychologist named Bridges.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottAnd it applies to this situation really beautifully because the thing to remember is, this change is going to be very quick. Even though the kind of the planning might take some time, the change actually handover is going to be quick. One day you're the CEO, the next day your daughter and their partner in charge. That's going to be overnight. The psychological transition you need to go through to accept that change is going to be much, much slower and much more difficult. It's going to be like a grief process. That first stage of the Bridges model is ending. It's, it's saying goodbye. It's closing that chapter. During that time, it's going to be really typical that you'll feel fearful, angry. You'll feel like a loss of control, disappointed, sadness. It really is kind of a depressing mood that you'll likely be in in that ending stage. So, it's making sure you process those emotions in an effective way with a coach, with a consultant, with a friend.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottwith a therapist to make sure you're able to move on from that and then look forward to the amazing new adventures you're gonna have. Who cares what's gonna happen with the business? That's your daughter's problem. Now you get to retire and do all the other things that you've wanted to do in your life that are going to bring you meaning and fulfillment and happiness. Now is the time for that. And if you deal with that ending, you'll be able to look at this new beginning in a much more hopeful, optimistic, and practical way.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottway. Um, so yeah, I would check out Stephen Short's episode for some practical advice. I would definitely look into getting some kind of coaching, consulting, or counseling to help you manage this transition.
Al ElliottGreat advice. And I think what Leanne said there was perfect. Like, you— if you sold this to a different person, you might have those concerns, but you probably wouldn't have the same, same level of concern you've got right now if that person did something different. Your daughter has probably got some really, really good ideas. But let her make her own mistakes. When you started your business, what was it, 30 years ago? You made mistakes. Let her make her own mistakes. But also perhaps just say, do you know what would really disappoint me is if we lost that personal touch with the customers. That might be the kind of like the thing that you go, do anything you want, just please try not to lose that because they trusted us and they put their trust in us.
Leanne ElliottThe thing I remember Stephen saying that stuck with me is understand understanding that what you did to get the business here where it is today is not going to be what the next generation are going to need to go to get the business forward in the future. It's a simple, simple idea, but a key point of understanding. I think it's going to require something different. So I think really it's— this is, yeah, about detaching you from this business in, in the most effective way, and in a way that's going to enable you to move forward with excitement and optimism.
Al ElliottOkay, so question number 3, Lee, I think is right up your street, and you'll see why in a second. I run an online marketplace for handmade goods that's grown from a side hustle to a team of 40 over the past 3 years. We— I know we've had some, we've had some big dogs on today. We've embraced remote work from the start, so our team members are spread across 4 continents and 6 time zones. While this setup has allowed us to tap into global talent pool, I'm struggling to maintain a cohesive company culture, mainly worried that everyone doesn't feel connected. We've tried various tools for virtual collaboration. We do host a weekly all-hands video call, but engagement is kind of patchy, inconsistent. Some team members speak up, but I'm worried about silos forming between departments. How can I foster a sense of belonging and shared purpose in a team that never meets face to face? I thought this would be right up your street because Because you used to— Roddick used to do the consultancy and the culture for a business like this.
Leanne ElliottI did, I did. And I also managed a team that was 100% remote based across 4 continents. Uh, do you know what, in the same— refer to previous answers in exactly the same way as you build a culture in the office. And that's what really frustrates me about this whole RTO anyway, not, not your question. Um, it's, it's, you know, Remote is a context. It comes with a slightly— it takes slightly more intention, but it's the same things you need to do. So again, my questions are going to be, because I don't know from your questions, what data points are you currently using to measure engagement and how engaged people are? Are you going off gut or anecdotes? That might not be the best way to do it. At this point, you might be starting to look at putting in team leaders or managers that might be able to kind of help that more hands-on day-to-day interaction happen with a smaller number of people. 4 is quite a lot. Um, so it might be worth looking at the manager and supervisor roles within your business. Um, being honest, one of the, one of the things that really helped us as a, um, or really helped that remote company to kind of, kind of fuse together is we had a, um, Yeah. We had actually a face-to-face meetup with key members of the leadership team. And I'm not sure kind of what, um, kind of structure your business that you've got, but sometimes having these kind of face-to-faces can be useful, whether you're— and not very often, like every couple of years, and just with the key members of staff with a very clear intention of what that meetup is, is to do, whether it's about strategy, whether it's about operations, culture, etc. Um, so that's always worth looking at as well. My, my The point is always going to be, where's your data in terms of how things are right now? Um, because if you, if you don't have kind of hard data through some kind of culture audit, then you're not going to know. You're just guessing. So until that, it's really hard to offer any kind of practical advice really. But that would be the general things. Gather some data if you don't have any already. Maybe start to invest in supervisory team leadership roles to help reduce silos and keep that culture cohesive and potentially look at some face-to-face meetups with key members of staff, um, to discuss all this and, and set an action plan agenda for, for how you'll manage culture going forward.
Al ElliottUm, generally speaking, something you did, Leanne, when in another organization, something you implemented was a, um, was a weekly— I think it was a weekly face-to-face over Zoom or something equivalent with every member of staff. So you spoke to, spoke to someone At least once a month, I think it was. Um, and you just made notes on what was bothering them at the time. And it was just that weekly check-in, which obviously took a lot of your week, but it was so worth it because, you know, the people who did work remotely felt like you actually cared and you've got time for them. Um, I think one of the concerns about having a face-to-face with just a select number of people is you create divisions. So you have to manage that very, very carefully if you're are thinking of doing that, Leanne's got some experience in that. Uh, you'll see her email in the show notes. Drop her email. I'm sure that she will, she will, she will continue that, that conversation with you. But just be a little bit careful with that.
Leanne ElliottJust to, just to correct that very slightly, you're absolutely right, that more formal one-to-one was once a month, right? Um, but I was checking in every day with people, not in a micromanagement way, but just if I knew there was something coming up that they were worried about that was happening that day, I'd give them a call and go, how did that go? Um, Or, and equally, they'd end up calling me quite frequently if they had their questions or just wanted to share some good news. Um, so yeah, there, yeah, there's some, some ideas for you.
Al ElliottSkip back to episode, I want to say 129, with, um, uh, with MAP. Uh, this is with Paul Barnes and Amanda. Um, they have an element of their, um, of their team who work in, I think it's the Philippines. Um, and they've done some really cool things. So go listen to that episode. Because they talk about how they help, how they bring in apprentices, but also they have this remote element and they really, really do look after them and people love them. Have we got anything to add, my love, before we say goodbye?
Leanne ElliottOnly a quick reminder that if you like to hear stories of how organisations big and small have built amazing workplace cultures, then our Thursday episodes are definitely right up your street.
Al ElliottYeah, and if you've liked today, then it's back every Tuesday. We're going to have all the latest news, news, the Agony Ants segment, and we're also going to be continuing with our amazing Hot Takes segment. If you haven't subscribed, then please consider subscribing. That's the way you thank us. Leaving a review is the way that you buy us a coffee. And if you want to literally buy us a coffee, then fly to Mostar in Bosnia and, uh, give— drop us a message and we'll come meet you.
Leanne ElliottUntil then, bye.
Al ElliottUntil our coffee in Mostar. Bye-bye. There are so many memes online on Twitter and stuff on, you know, where he's got an interview saying, uh, the interviewee saying how much, you know, how much— there are so many memes and stuff online, uh, you know, with the interviewer saying how much— Struggling with that next thing. There are so many memes online where an interviewer— interviewee will ask how much something is worth Fuck it.
Leanne ElliottWhat point are you trying to make?
Al ElliottI don't know.
Leanne ElliottCan you just say it out loud roughly and then I'll—
Al ElliottIt's not even that good. Missing the empathy game according to— that's not right.
Leanne ElliottThat's, that's not, that's not it. It's just a case that maybe— sorry, I've gone off on one. I've gone off on one. Never mind, I'm going on anyway. Can you cut it somewhere in there, Al?
Al ElliottI'll do my very best. Very short break. We'll be back with from freaking hell, Al. Of course, the world famous weekly workplace surgery and more of us. Fuck! I'm so sorry. Let me do this again.
Leanne ElliottWhat is happening in the world of work? What is broken?