Episode 273 · 5 February 2026 · 42:43
What Taylor Swift can teach leaders about workplace change, with Hollywood screenwriter turned organisational psychologist, Lindsey Caplan
Featuring Lindsey Caplan
What Taylor Swift can teach leaders about workplace change, with Hollywood screenwriter turned organisational psychologist, Lindsey Caplan
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The Stephen Colbert lesson: influencing a group is like jumper cables
interview#influence#group-dynamics#leadership
Meet Lindsey Caplan: from Hollywood screenwriter to organisational psychologist
interview#organisational-psychology#screenwriting#career-change
What screenwriting taught Lindsey about keeping attention: stakes and structure
The difference between informing and influencing
Start with the end: designing for behaviour change
interview#behaviour-change#design#leadership
What leaders get wrong when driving change
The MOVED Model explained: push vs pull, generic vs personalised
interview#model#engagement#communication
What Taylor Swift's Eras Tour teaches us about engagement
interview#taylor-swift#engagement#example
Transmission gap vs ownership gap
interview#ownership#communication#change
Where to start: deciding the behaviour you want
interview#behaviour#goals#leadership
The one thing Lindsey would ban in the workplace
interview#workplace#ban#leadership
The movie with the greatest story, according to a screenwriter
interview#movies#storytelling#screenwriting
One thing to take away and top 3 takeaways
interview#takeaways#summary#advice
Show notes
What Taylor Swift Can Teach Leaders About Workplace Change — with Lindsey Caplan
Guest: Lindsey Caplan — former Hollywood screenwriter (Curb Your Enthusiasm, Malcolm in the Middle) turned organisational psychologist, founder of The Gathering Effect.
Why do so many change initiatives, town halls and big launches create excitement — and then fade with no real behaviour change?
Lindsey joins Al and Leanne to explain why information alone never creates change, and what actually does. She shares the MOVED Model, a practical framework for driving engagement and influencing behaviour in a way that sticks. Along the way, she breaks down what Taylor Swift's Eras Tour can teach leaders about pulling people in rather than pushing at them — and why "I'm really excited about this change" is the fastest way to lose your audience.
If you lead teams, present ideas, manage projects or drive transformation, this episode will change how you think about every presentation from now on.
Top 3 Takeaways
- Start with the behaviour, not the message. Before designing any communication, ask: What do we need people to do differently? Not: What do we need to tell them? The desired effect should drive everything.
- Pull people in, don't push at them. Give people a role in the change, ask for their input, and make the message relevant to their world. Information pushed at people creates compliance at best — engagement requires involvement.
- Stop saying "I'm really excited about this." We know you're excited — you're the one introducing it. Instead, explain why employees should be excited. Make it about them, not you.
More From Lindsey Caplan
- Take the MOVED Model quiz: gatheringeffect.com/quiz
- Connect with Lindsey on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/lindseycaplan
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
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Lindsey CaplanA lot of my lessons come from comedy, as we've talked about, and I often think about this quote from Stephen Colbert who says that influencing a group is like hooking up jumper cables to the audience, right? And so, our job is to figure out how to produce that charge, and that comes from not just what we say, but creating the conditions so that the group has a collective feeling and takes collective action.
Leanne ElliottOur guest today, Lindsey Caplan, is a former Hollywood screenwriter turned organisational psychologist who discovered that The most expensive change initiatives fail for one simple reason.
Al ElliottYeah, Lindsey worked on shows like Curb Your Enthusiasm and Malcolm in the Middle, and she learned something pretty crucial there. The same techniques that keep millions of people glued to their screens can make your employees actually care about change.
Leanne ElliottToday we're discovering what Taylor Swift knows about engagement that most CEOs don't, and the framework Lindsey created called the Moved Model that helps you stop informing people and start influencing them.
Al ElliottThis could change how you think about every presentation from now on.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning podcast where behavioural science meets workplace culture, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a Chartered Occupational Psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al, I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of work.
Al ElliottLindsey Caplan has an unusual background. She went from writing comedy in Hollywood to studying organisational psychology, and that combination led her to spot something most change management consultants miss. She realised that companies spend fortunes trying to move people through information dumps, when actually what works is the same thing that makes us binge Netflix shows or buy Taylor Swift concert tickets. Perhaps not me, but certainly for some.
Leanne ElliottI would. She's developed something called the Moved model, which breaks down exactly how to influence groups of people, not manipulate them, but genuinely move them to care about change. And it's based on 2 simple axes: push versus pull, and one-size-fits-all versus personalised.
Al ElliottAnd the best part of this is that none of this requires charisma or a huge budget. It's about small choices that create big effects. So after this break, we'll discover why the phrase, I'm really excited about this change, is killing your initiative. And what to say instead.
Leanne ElliottSee you in a sec.
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.
Lindsey CaplanMy name is Lindsey Kaplan, and I am a screenwriter turned organisational psychologist, and I help organisations design the high-stakes messages and moments that move people emotionally and behaviorally. What am I famous for? I'm famous, I guess, for a model that I created called the Moved Model, which teaches folks how to influence at scale and move people in some way.
Al ElliottTell me, what is it about your background in Hollywood, you think, that taught you how to keep people's attention?
Lindsey CaplanOh, a lot. I mean, I think we're taught, you know, how to engage people on a page, how to keep people paying attention. There's a few things that stand out. You know, one is this idea of stakes. And so, what do we engineer so that people care about the character and care about what happens to them? So, what's at stake for them? An example might be if you ever watch Schitt's Creek, which is one of my favorite shows, the Rose family, we learn in the first episode, has lost all of their worldly possessions. So, immediately there's something at stake for them. So, one of the first things we learn is how to raise the stakes, how to get people to care. Another is this idea of a clear motivation, a clear want. So, every character has a need or an engine that propels the story forward. So, an example from Severance might be in the first episode, we learn that Mark wants to know what's happened to his wife. So, these are examples of structural pieces or constructs that we use to help people not just pay attention, but want to stay and keep engaging towards the very end and care There are a lot of copywriters who will talk about Joseph Campbell and the 7—
Al Elliottthe 7-somethings. What am I talking about here?
Lindsey CaplanLike the hero's journey piece?
Al ElliottExactly. So, is that just a load of rubbish or are majority of films— the majority of films are based around that?
Lindsey CaplanOh, it's not rubbish at all. I mean, so much of what we aim to write has a very clear structure behind it. And I remember, I studied screenwriting as an undergrad at Northwestern University in Chicago, and I remember once I learned the structure, I was like, oh, it's ruined it for me. I can never watch a movie again because now I know at page 75, there it comes. But actually, no. So, it's not a load of rubbish. There's a clear structure and kind of rules to follow. And the point is that once you learn the rules, you can break them like anything else.
Al ElliottYou talk about group influence, I believe. So, at what point did you realize that group influence was a different problem to solve than just straight Well, I mean, so after I left Hollywood and screenwriting, I kind of went in a couple different paths.
Lindsey CaplanI found my way into learning and development where I was scripting learning experiences for folks to educate or to build leadership skills or soft skills, et cetera. And then I got my master's degree in organisational psychology. So, thinking about behaviour change at scale across an entire organisation. So, that kind of planted the seeds for me. The central question of how do we move people, not just on a page, but in a room, is something I've been studying for a really long time. But I think we'll talk about this in a second, but it's a distinct skill to not just communicate or influence one person, but to influence many. And I think we're probably familiar with folks like Dale Carnegie who taught us how to influence one-to-one, but I, you know, my argument is this is a different skill that we can learn, and I'll talk about why and how. But more specifically, there were a few experiences I had where I realized the challenge people were having was they were focusing on what information to say, how to inform, but not how to influence. And that was the gap between not just getting people to listen, but to care, to act, to change, to move. And that kind of led me on this journey of figuring out how to teach this skill and help companies do it better.
Al ElliottYou've just said there's something really interesting. You said there's a difference between And what were your exact words? Different from communication, and what did you just say there?
Lindsey CaplanThere's a difference between informing people and influencing them.
Al ElliottThat was it. And going back to this keyword you said at the beginning, stakes, is that something to do with those? Yeah.
Lindsey CaplanAbsolutely. I mean, I think we're probably familiar with the classic change management-ism, which is what's in it for me, and understanding that for our audience or the folks that we want to move, It's very similar here in the idea of influencing people. We can call it raise the stakes, we can figure out what matters to them, what do they care about, having empathy, designing with the end user in mind. It's all a similar way of saying, if we want to move people, we have to know why they would be moved. All to say, motivation is a huge part of the equation here, and again, that's the difference between informing and influencing.
Al ElliottWe might not be considering I sense that designing a scene for an audience in a movie theater is kind of similar to designing a presentation for a company going through change.
Lindsey CaplanYou know, the most important thing I tell every single client I work with is we wanna start with the end, which is very similar to what we do when we're writing, you know, a play, a movie, a television show. We begin with the end in mind. So, what happens at the end of the movie? What happens to the character? If we don't know that, we don't really know how to write, write the story. Similar to that, when we're designing a presentation, for our change efforts. What I mean by that, I think most companies start with the topic they want to share or kind of what the change might be, right? But more specifically, what I help them understand is, what do we need from the people we're trying to affect? What's the change that we're after? So, questions like, you know, what would people think, feel, or know differently? That's a basic one. Other questions might be, you know, how would you know that this was Successful? What would you see through a camera lens that would tell me that that change happened? So, the more observable, the better. Can you tell me a story about the before and after? What matters to these people? Why would they be affected? And we'll get into this a little bit, but specifically, what kind of influence are we wanting? Are we wanting them to just comply? Are we wanting them to be informed, to be entertained, or to be engaged? What level of movement do we need from people, and then how do we design The communication, the experience, the change effort in order to achieve that outcome. That's what I mean by influence.
Al ElliottI sense that a lot of the corporate world are going to spend a lot more time on the message and not really take into account any kind of emotion or anything around that. I have a feeling you've got a thought on this.
Lindsey CaplanI mean, I'm nodding my head vigorously, of course. Listen, when I say spend time on the emotion, or you say that, I could see folks rolling their eyes, right? Like, emotion, ew, I don't want to do that. And that's a really big miss, you know, for various reasons, one of them being most of our decision-making is guided by emotions, by what we feel. And emotionally connecting to what's being shared is the key to getting someone to do something long-term. So the thesis statement that I use in my work is that we're not changed by content. We are changed when we are affected by that content, when we're moved by it, right? And so, that's again, the difference between informing and influencing, and that's what we're trying to get people to do. And I can walk you through specifically how to do that, but that is the shift. It's not just what we say, it's how we say it so that people care, engage, and act, and that's the skill. Just one anecdote quickly. We've talked about a little bit the difference between influencing one-to-one and one-to-many, or influencing a group. A lot of my lessons come from comedy, as we've talked about, and I often think about this quote from Stephen Colbert who says that influencing a group is like hooking up jumper cables to the audience, right? And so, our job is to figure out how to produce that charge, and that comes from not just what we say, but creating the conditions so that the group has a collective feeling and takes collective action. And to double-click on Stephen Colbert, because why not? When he started doing The Late Show, there were a lot of interviews with him where he was saying that something wasn't clicking. People were laughing, but they weren't really, I guess, moved, for lack of a better word. And what he discovered, that the trick was not just to share kind of the facts of the day, but to share how he felt about them. And that was what helped his audience connect with him more. And so, I often cite that with clients, and I say, yeah, we're giving your town hall updates, but people could watch that on their own.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Lindsey CaplanRight? Or they could read about that in an email. The idea of influencing many people at once, especially in a live setting, is people wanna know how you feel about it, right? So, they wanna connect to you more. So, we can— I often borrow lessons from my background in entertainment and education and obviously business to help people kind of see the difference and then hopefully have, you know, more long-term success.
Al ElliottI wonder, when leaders are trying to get change through? What are they getting wrong? Is it this connection, or is there more they're getting wrong?
Lindsey CaplanI'm going to not use the word wrong, just so people are more motivated to listen to me, right? Might be my own influence trick. I think there's a few things to highlight. One is just kind of the basic assumption that the people that they're trying to influence are already as motivated and bought into the changes they are. Right, that they're in the company, they bought a ticket, they're in the seat, they already care. And that is often not true. And so, I think that's really the first thing to recognise is that their job is to take what's kind of pull and personalised to them, and I'll get into that language in a second, and make it pull and personalised to everybody else. And that is what leads to long-term change. So, let's give a concrete example. Let's say you are a company 10,000 people and you want everyone to adopt a new technology. That's the large change that you want to enact across your organisation. And what I often say, let's first decide, again, what is our desired effect? What do we need from the people that we're trying to affect? And there's typically 4 different things that we could get. We could get compliance, where people just take an action. We could get them to be informed, where we drive awareness. We could entertain them. They feel delighted, maybe they give us their momentary attention, or we could get engagement, which means that the people that we're trying to affect in this change are bought in long-term, they have ownership, the behavior change, they're not just singing the song on their own, but they're sharing it with somebody else. And so, the first thing that I do with folks or any client is clarify what is the type of influence or movement that you need? That's the very, very first step. And then, Once we figure that out, I help them kind of move in that direction or change their strategy to achieve that desired effect. It could be, you know, a whole change management strategy. It could be in a town hall. It could be a leadership program. It could be a set of experiences in an all-company summit. There's many different ways that we could influence at scale. The reason I say experience is that inside our companies, the way that I'm used to people influencing a bunch of people at once is say, I'm gonna put you in a room and I'm gonna give you a piece of content. I'm going to poof change you. That's the thing so many of us are used to. And that's the, I think that is one of our highest stakes opportunities to influence more effectively.
Al ElliottI don't want to put words in your mouth, but I have a sense that your MOVE model sort of helps us understand this all a little bit easier. So, talk us through it.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Lindsey CaplanSo, let's dive into concrete tactics and things that folks can do, but I want to anchor us first in this common language. So, I describe the 4 different ways that you can move people. Let's imagine a 2 by 2. Let's put our business book brains on and just a lovely 2 by 2. And on the vertical axis is push and pull. So push and pull asks, who's in control? Is my audience or employees, are they passive or are they active? Is this being done with them, pull, or is it being done at them, push? And on the horizontal axis is one size fits all and personalized. So is it made for anyone or is it made about me? Which, you know, we can sort of plot where we are on that axis to create one of these 4 effects. So, in the top right quadrant is engagement, which means it's pull and it's personalised. In the lower left, it's compliance, it's push and one-size-fits-all. And the point of this is that, well, 2 points. One, we can plot and diagnose where we are now in an easier way. And then 2, as a company, we can share a common language about what might be needed to move people in a different way without making it super personal or placing blame. We can just share this common language, hopefully a layman's language, that makes all this theory and kind of behavioural science a bit more easier to apply.
Al ElliottI'm going to ask you more about pull and push in a second, but I just want to understand with this model. So, we've got 4 quadrants. Is there a quadrant that we do not want to be in?
Lindsey CaplanNo. I mean, choose the quadrant that makes the most sense for you and your organisation and what fits your culture. So, I'm working with a client right now, and we're working on a large change management project to move the entire enterprise to adopt a new technology. Now, you might say, well, that feels like compliance is enough. The challenge is that that organisation is not a compliance culture. They are an engagement culture. Every change they make is engagement. Employees want buy-in. They want to know what's going on. They want ownership. Previous changes that tried to be in compliance didn't stick.
Al ElliottHmm.
Lindsey CaplanAnd therefore, we've diagnosed, we've defined, we need to have this change be with an engaged approach. So, it really just depends what's best for your organisation and what will stick long-term, but there isn't a wrong quadrant.
Al ElliottSo, I've got down the bottom, I've got push and one-size-fits-all, is that right?
Lindsey CaplanLower left, that's right.
Al ElliottYeah. So, in that situation, What would my behaviour look like as a leader compared perhaps to the pull personalised?
Lindsey CaplanEssentially, what push and one-size-fits-all means that the change effort is being done at people and about anyone. And so, it's probably, I'll give you an example. I worked in an organisation a long time ago where they announced new company values, which is a big change for a company because you're wanting Hundreds or thousands of people to care about something and engage in a different way, behave in a different way. And they stood on a stage and called the whole company together and made a quick announcement. Here's the new values, here's what they mean. And that was it. That was it. And I think the expectation unintentionally was, ah, they'll comply, they'll get it, and they'll do it. Guess what happened?
Al ElliottHmm.
Lindsey CaplanIt flopped. It completely flopped. Not only did people not remember the values, but they didn't spread, they didn't stick, no one cared. And then a year later, they re— we redid the entire process with a pull and personalised approach. That company went on to be acquired for a large sum, which I'm not saying the values had anything to do with it, but that would be nice if we told that story. The values still stick today. What is it, 9 years later, 8 years later?
Al ElliottYeah.
Lindsey CaplanBecause I believe the approach really led to that long-term adoption of this change. So, you know, I think we probably can all feel the compliance, which is we're just told to do something because we have to do something. And I believe, at least right now, many of us have a collective allergy to being told to do something because they said so. So, there's often a better way that doesn't involve just pushing and announcing and expecting that, poof, people do what you want them to do. Yeah.
Al ElliottSo, in an instinct where a leader might be trying to push a change, you are telling us we should move up towards pull in most situations. How do we actually do that?
Lindsey CaplanYeah, there's many ways to shift from push to pull. And again, what we're saying here is that we want this to be done with people and not at them. And the reason that that's important is it pulls on people's motivation, and motivation is a key reason why we change long-term. So, I'll give you a couple of practical ways to pull instead of push. One of the most powerful ways is to give people a role or ownership in the change. Many, many, many ways to do that. You can invite a group of change ambassadors to support you in the change. You can share something unfinished and ask for feedback. If you're doing a town hall, you can put a question on the screen that gets people thinking about the day's topic or what it might mean to them.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Lunch wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in. I'm really trying to get my head around this idea of pushing and pulling. You got any kind of examples so I can see when someone's pushing and when someone's pulling?
Lindsey CaplanAbsolutely. As you said that, another example came to mind just from life in general. Maybe when we go to see a our favorite artist play, and they're like, oh, come on, come on, Chicago, get louder. And that to me is like an immediate push. It's like a car on a car, or your hand on a car horn, like pushing you to get louder. Whereas in pull, someone might say, you know, we're so glad you're here tonight. Your audience really, your enthusiasm really helps us, right? It's kind of an immediate sign that They need us, that they're doing this with us. And so, I listen for language a lot because it can tell us about the mindset between push and pull. But more specifically, in a corporate setting, when we think about push and pull, the difference is it's being done with us, not at us, which drives motivation, which is a long-term ingredient for change. So, a couple of practical ways to pull instead of push. One is to think about how can you give people a sense of ownership or a role? In organisational development, we often talk about how involvement leads towards commitment, which is so important to long-term engagement and buy-in and change. So, think about how you can give people a role. It might be, can you solicit feedback about something that's not finished? Can you put a question on the screen that gets people thinking about that town hall topic before you even show it? Can you invite people in to support you in the change effort as a change ambassador? Can you talk to them about how important their efforts are and why you need their help? How do we pull people in and give people a role is really important. Another way to do this, we'll borrow this from my old life as a screenwriter, is to use a central question. So, we talked about the TV show Severance.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Lindsey CaplanThe central question of Severance is, what is Lumon Industries? What the heck is going on? Or if we watch White Lotus, the central question is, who dies at the end? Or, you know, pick your favorite television show or movie. There's a central question that keeps us interested and motivated and wants us to pay attention. The same is true of our change efforts. So, when you think about pulling instead of pushing, ask yourself, what is the central question of this change effort? What is the question that people will want to stay or care or work towards to find the answer? Not to trick them, but to pique curiosity. So, many, many ways to pull instead of push, but those are a couple.
Al ElliottFabulous answer. And by the way, you've just made me think then the old days in the '80s, the Stadium Rock, they used to say, hello, Chicago, and then everyone would go mad. Whereas now, Sabrina Carpenter, I think she incorporates a particular lyric Which is relevant to the town she's in.
Lindsey CaplanI could go on and on and on about what we can learn from musicians about this. And I'm, to segue here, I went to see the Eras Tour Taylor Swift last year. I called it research. Yeah, I was like, oh, this is research. One of the ways that she gave people a role, and I think Coldplay does this too, a lot of bands do this too, is they give you a light-up bracelet when you enter, and that bracelet lights up different colors depending on the song. And at one point, the bracelet formed a heart, And the reason that she does this is it gives people a role. It shows them that she can't do the show without them, right? So again, similarly, we are not Taylor Swift and we're not speaking to a stadium of people, but whether our room is 5 people or 50,000, how can you give people a sense that this is being done with them and that you need them? Musicians and performers, that's why, you know, um, why people need an audience as a comedian because they show them how important, um, their laughter is to the success of the show. So, so much we can learn from entertainment in the pull regard, but I completely agree with you.
Al ElliottSo, how do we be more Swift? How do we be more Taylor? See, I'm— I don't even know the vernacular. I was about to be more Swiftie, but I think those are the fans. How do we— if we've got a room of 10 people and we want to introduce a new, I don't know, a new computer system, I'm not gonna give everyone bracelets, but is— I feel there's a lesson that I could learn from that.
Lindsey CaplanThere's a lot. So I know we didn't all go to the Eras Tour, but I'll take you inside. One of the best things that she did when she started the show was she described the structure. So I'm going to take you through all eras one by one, right? And so this was a way that she gave the audience a sense of what to expect, and it helped us trust the driver.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Lindsey CaplanRight? Not that we didn't trust Taylor from the beginning, but we can borrow this tactic too. And I don't just mean an agenda slide, right? I mean, show me exactly what the structure is for, you know, the town hall or the training program or whatever it is so that we know where you're taking us and why. She, you know, every single night, one of the dancers would you know, say a phrase in the native language or a sort of vernacular of that town. So that helps it feel like it was made for you, which is a key difference between one-size-fits-all and personalised. And I bring up these techniques not because we are going to be Taylor Swift, but to say that it's not about charisma or about title or about force. Anybody can learn to influence people differently. And it doesn't mean we're changing the content. So Taylor didn't change, you know, she didn't change her setlist every night except for one portion. But it's about the conditions that she created that made you feel like this was being done with you and about you. And so we're all capable of that.
Al ElliottWhat I'm really enjoying about this is that as you are speaking, it's all starting to fit a little bit together in my head that Taylor Swift She gets, she brings in emotions, so people feel emotional about it.
Lindsey CaplanExactly.
Al ElliottIt's personalised, they're pulled towards her. And to be fair, people have gone and paid money to go and see her, so they're naturally pulling, but go on, continue.
Lindsey CaplanYeah, I'm head nodding. So, 100%, it's all about being more connected to the person who's trying to influence you. And I think I said at the beginning, the thesis of all of my work is we don't change because of content or what's shared. We change when we're affected by it, when we're moved by it, right? And so everything that we're talking about, pulling and personalising, is in that regard to help people be more affected by it. Specifically with musicians, one of my favourite things that they do is when they introduce a song, they'll tell you what it's about. So they'll say, this is a song about love, this is a song about heartbreak, this is a song about moving on, whatever it is. The reason that they're doing that is so you care about what they care about and you can see yourself in their song, which helps you feel more connected.
Al ElliottYeah.
Lindsey CaplanSo, in personalisation, that's so important. If we can share kind of the why behind it, the universal concept or the metaphor behind what we're doing, people will see themselves in the change that you're trying to create, which is again what leads to that long-term success.
Al ElliottSo, if Taylor Swift is in a meeting one-on-one or one-on-two with record executives, she's not gonna do this. So, she's So, I'm starting to understand there's a huge difference between her talking to 20,000 people in an audience and her talking to 2 people.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Lindsey CaplanThe difference is one-on-one, we can change in real time. We can gauge reactions. We can adjust. In a one-to-many setting or a group influence setting, we are trying to create kind of a shared feeling, which means we're managing the conditions in that room. Which is again, why we're doing pull, why we're personalising. When I work with clients, it's not so much about changing the content, it's about changing how they share it for the effect that they want. That's the whole, again, the whole ballgame here.
Al ElliottI've got 2 words written down here, transmission gap and ownership gap. What's the difference?
Lindsey CaplanWell, when we talk about kind of mistakes that people make, I think there's 2. One is the transmission trap, which is the idea that more content equals more change. So, if I just kind of keep transmitting information, I stuff the suitcase, that will solve the problem. And it's not a transmission problem, it's a transformation problem, is sort of what I argue. And then the ownership gap is this idea that If we think about a seesaw that we're trying to tilt, we think that information alone will kind of tilt the seesaw so that people care, but really it's about care and ownership, not just information. So, how do we kind of tilt the power imbalances or the seesaw so that people care and have ownership over what we're doing and the change that we're seeking, and not just us, the leaders or the folks in charge? So, Those are, again, kind of language that I like to use to describe what folks may be unknowingly doing, or for an audience or employees, they go, oh, that's why, that's why that didn't affect me long-term. That's why I wasn't moved. And then hopefully we can do differently.
Al ElliottSo, let me ask you then, imagine I am a manager, I've got a team, I know I need to make a change. I sense that there's something I should do first. Should I be asking questions of the team, of myself, of the situation?
Lindsey CaplanThe very first thing to do is to figure out what your desired effect is, or what—
Al ElliottSelfishly, what my desired effect is.
Lindsey CaplanYeah, it's what's the best way to move this group? What do we need from them? And what I mean by that practically is figuring out what the right strategy should be. So, do we need compliance? Should we inform? Should we entertain, or should we engage? That's it. That's the first step. And the difference is it's effect first, not content first. So, what we typically do is I'll put all the agenda in a slide deck. Okay, here's everything we want to do for our offsite. We'll get this, and then we'll do this, and then we'll do this. And I always say to folks, I'm like, That's a great agenda, but we missed a crucial step. What do we need from the people that are in this room, or in this change effort, or in this offsite? And then everything else gets easier from there, but we often skip that step. And I understand why we do, but it can save us a ton of time to do that first.
Al ElliottYou've worked with a lot of leaders who are looking to effect change. If you could, like, ban something, if there was something you could say, you should never ever do this, what would you say?
Lindsey CaplanOh, wow. What an interesting question. Um, the first thing that came to my head is for people to say, I'm really excited about X. As a way to introduce a change. How often do we see that? I'm really excited to share this. I'm really excited to introduce Y. Okay, cool. I'm glad you're excited. Why should I be excited? That's the most important part. And to your earlier point, it's about that transference, right, of excitement from X to Y. We already know you're excited. You're the one introducing it. That's kind of a snarky answer, but that's something I would like to see less of.
Al ElliottI love this. So, let's talk about this for a quick second then. So, imagine I had a huge podcast team. I don't, it's just me and Leanne, but imagine I had a huge podcast team and we were gonna move from an editing software that was very expensive to one that was a bit cheaper. So, I might start off by going, my instinct would be, I'm really excited because we're gonna go and try a new technology, which is hopefully gonna be a lot better, and I think it's gonna be easier for everyone. everyone to use. My motivation is I want to save some money. They are going to— I'm pushing them on a one-size-fits-all because they're going to have to learn a new software. So coach me through this, Lindsey. I know I have to make the change. How do I actually do it properly?
Lindsey CaplanHmm. That's, I mean, you're already kind of halfway there. Which is thinking about what might get in the way of people doing what you want them to do, right? And so, uh, this is why, again, my screenwriting background comes into play here, because our whole job is to get inside people's heads and understand them really well and have empathy and observation and, um, those strong muscles there. So, thinking about what would stop people from doing this, because oftentimes that's the reason why change isn't sticking.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Lindsey CaplanOr adding more to their plate, or there's too much friction, or it's too hard, or there's not— there's no reward for it. So, thinking about what might get in the way of the change that we're seeking, I think, is the thing I would convince you to do from the beginning. And I think for what you're describing, it's really probably a compliance effort, I would imagine. If you want, I'll piggyback on this a little bit in a way that might connect to your audience a bit. I was working with a leader many years ago who said, well, no one at our company is giving feedback, and this is hurting innovation, and people might leave, and we need people to have difficult conversations. And so, he said, I'm gonna hire a guest speaker, and they're gonna come to the town hall, and they will talk about the importance of feedback, and poof, that will get everyone to give more feedback. And guess what happened, Al?
Al ElliottIt didn't work.
Lindsey CaplanIt didn't work. There was a brief uptick in the couple weeks post that town hall of interest and, oh, this is really cool, but it didn't stick long-term. It didn't stick long-term because of the reasons that we've been describing. This leader focused on informing people of a model, but not influencing them to do something differently. So, creating the conditions for them to care and act and change. And the reason I bring this up is what mattered to him didn't matter to his employees, right? So he wanted to make sure innovation wasn't stifled. Was that the most important thing to his employees, why they would care about learning how to give better feedback? It wasn't. So he sold it from his need, his perspective, his want versus his employees. And I think this probably sounds like, duh, Lindsey, like, oh, this is Change 101. But I bring this up because I think it's really, really common, and because this is a high-stakes problem. How often are CEOs or leaders frustrated that people are not doing what we want them to do, and then they wonder why? So, again, I hope that by sharing the difference between informing and influencing, we can, A, sort of start to peel back the layers, and then build the skills to do this differently so that these moments that are meant to move people, A, actually do, And B, are worth the investment of time and money and energy and morale.
Al ElliottWith this person who wanted to get more feedback, how should they have done it? What would you do, you have done if you were in charge of this?
Lindsey CaplanSo, one of the first things that I would've convinced her or suggested that this person do is talk about his personal reason for why this mattered to him. And so, what he did, which is very typical, is he sort of offloaded the event to the expert to share her model. But he didn't have any role in it. And similar to what we were talking about earlier, I think the personalization part of like the emotional center of why we should care about this comes from our leaders sharing why this matters to them. And so, I wanted him to tell more stories about why, you know, what this means to him, and more so what his commitment was to his employees. So, the way to make this not compliance, but engagement, is to elevate people's status so that you show them why they are needed in the change effort.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Lindsey CaplanSo, what I would've convinced him to do or coached him to do is to say, here is our leader's commitment, our leadership team, this is our commitment to you around this effort, and this is why we need your help. We need you to join us in this so that all of us achieve, you know, X, Y, and Z. So, again, I think it's some of the framing, some of the language around this, setting up the conditions so that people care. And then kind of one more thing I would highlight, which I tell people a lot, is You know, these employees were listening to this speaker speak for about 45 minutes or so, and what we missed was a chance to personalize it or put it in our own context. That can happen through debrief, it can happen through a question on the screen, it can happen by turning to the person next to you and sharing what you think about this. These chances for people to sort of put it in their own words and their own language, connect to what they care about, was also missing from the event. And so, I say this because these changes that I suggest are not major. They don't take a ton of time, but they're small choices that I think, and I hope, and I've seen have large effects on the change that we seek long-term.
Al ElliottI cannot let you go without asking you this question. Movie with the greatest story, in your opinion?
Lindsey CaplanThe movie with the greatest story? Whoa.
Al ElliottNo, but come on, we, we don't get Hollywood screenwriters on very often. We have to ask you that.
Lindsey CaplanOh my goodness, the greatest story. You know, it's personal, right? And I'm not trying to, you know, shy away from your question, but the things that move us are things that connect to us personally. Maybe what's happening in our life at that time, or, you know, what is pertinent to us. There's a movie called Once. It's an Irish movie. I don't know if you've heard of this. Um, uh, that to me is one of the simplest, most beautiful movies I've ever seen. Very, very simple story of a man and woman who kind of support each other to make their musical dreams come true. Um, that's the movie that's sticking out to me. Um, no special effects, no, um, big budget stars, just simple, really good storytelling.
Al ElliottIf there was one thing, just one thing you'd plead with our listeners to take away from this, what do you think?
Lindsey CaplanSo, I think if there's one thing I want people to take away, it's the idea that people are not changed or moved by content. They're changed when they are affected by it, right? And so, that is our goal, to help people be more affected by what we're sharing, by the change that we're after. And that is the key to long-term success.
Al ElliottThat was Lindsey Caplan. And if that resonated, you should go to her website there and take the Moved quiz right now. It is at www.gatheringeffect.com/quiz. Link is in the show notes. Of course it is.
Leanne ElliottLet's wrap up with our top 3 takeaways for leaders who want to actually move people, not just inform them. So, lesson 1, effect first, content second. Before you build that deck or book that speaker, ask yourself, what do we actually need from these people? Is it compliance, awareness, engagement? The answer determines everything else. Most leaders skip this step and wonder why nothing sticks.
Al ElliottNumber 2, pull people in, don't push at them. If you give people a role in the change, if you ask for feedback on something unfinished, if you use a central question that creates curiosity, it's gonna work. The formula's simple. Involvement leads to commitment. When people feel ownership, change genuinely and actually sticks.
Leanne ElliottAnd lesson 3, stop saying, I'm really excited about this. We know you're excited. You're the one introducing it. Instead, tell people why they should be excited. Share your personal connection to the change. Make it about their needs, not yours. Remember, what matters to you doesn't automatically matter to your employees.
Al ElliottYeah, Lindsey's approach isn't about manipulation or tactics. It's about understanding we're human beings who make decisions based on emotion and not on logic. And if you want long-term change, you need people to care.
Leanne ElliottYou can find Lindsey at gatheringeffect.com, where, as Al said, you can take her free Moved Model quiz to discover your default style of influencing groups. It's a 5-minute assessment that might just explain why some of your change efforts haven't stuck.
Al ElliottWe'll of course put all the links in the show notes.
Leanne ElliottThat's all for today. Remember, you don't need to be Taylor Swift to move people. You just need to understand the difference between performing at people and performing for people. people and performing with them.
Al ElliottThis is Truth, Lies and Work. We'll see you next week.