Episode 77 · 8 February 2024 · 45:42

77: What a Transgender love story teaches us about inclusive cultures

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Welcome and LGBTQ+ History Month introduction
intro#lgbtq+#history-month #introduction
Introducing Danielle and Sophie Wood
intro#transgender #couple #personal-story
Sophie's overview of LGBTQ+ Month
panel interview#lgbtq+#history #education
The police misunderstanding story
panel interview#transgender #police #misunderstanding
Danielle and Sophie's full story begins
panel interview#coming-out #transgender #relationship
How Sophie's colleagues reacted at work
panel interview#workplace #colleagues #transgender
The 'sex is immutable' argument, unpacked
panel interview#transgender #sex #debate
The absurd 'trans people are predators' narrative
panel interview#transphobia #myths #narrative
Change, challenge, and the tough nut to crack
panel interview#transition #change #challenge
Why D&I needs to reach the 95% who don't care
panel interview#diversity #inclusion #awareness
What research and real conversations reveal
panel interview#research #conversations #insights
Belonging Base's approach — beyond the 'painting by numbers' D&I
panel interview#diversity #inclusion #approach
Advice for startups entering the D&I space
panel interview#startups #diversity #advice
The feeling of not belonging — and what real inclusion looks like
panel interview#belonging #inclusion #experience
Danielle's journey as a partner
panel interview#partner #transgender #journey
Finding trust, speaking words out loud, and the essence of hope
panel interview#trust #hope #communication
Resources — Trans Britain and more
panel interview#resources #books #transgender
Danielle and Sophie's LGBTQ+ History Month sessions
panel interview#lgbtq+#history-month #sessions
Why this conversation needs to continue
panel interview#conversation #acceptance #growth
Younger generations are watching — and judging
panel interview#younger-generations #judgment #awareness
Being an ally — and it's okay to get it wrong
panel interview#allyship #mistakes #support

Show notes

What a Transgender Love Story Teaches Us About Inclusive Cultures

Truth, Lies & Work — This February, for LGBTQ+ History Month, Al and Leanne share the extraordinary story of Danielle and Sophie Wood — university sweethearts who navigated Sophie's gender transition together, through mental health crises, workplace discrimination, and a police misunderstanding that could have torn them apart.

Now founders of Belonging Base consultancy, Danielle and Sophie are on a mission to help businesses build genuinely inclusive cultures — not tick-box D&I initiatives, but real belonging. Their story is one of resilience, love, and the transformative power of understanding.

💛 The Story

Danielle and Sophie met at university. They fell in love, built a life, and both worked for the police. Then Sophie transitioned — and everything changed.

The couple is remarkably open about the darkest moments: the day police colleagues assumed Danielle had attacked Sophie (because why else would a woman be distressed?), the week Sophie spent in a mental health unit, and the daily reality of navigating a world that often doesn't understand — or accept — transgender people.

But their story isn't just about struggle. It's about what happens when love, honesty, and resilience meet. And it's about what workplaces can learn when they stop treating D&I as a box-ticking exercise and start building genuine belonging.

🏢 What This Means for Your Workplace

D&I only works when it reaches the 95% who "don't care." Talking to the already-converted changes nothing. Real inclusion means engaging the people who think this isn't their problem.
External values mean nothing without internal reality. Awards and rainbow logos don't create belonging. Psychological safety does.
It's okay to get it wrong. What matters is wanting to get it right. Allyship is a practice, not a performance.
Younger generations are watching. Millennials and Gen Z are actively choosing employers based on how they treat marginalized groups.

📚 Resources Mentioned

Book: Trans Britain: Our Journey from the Shadows — edited by Christine Burns
Belonging Base is offering sessions during LGBTQ+ History Month — reach out via the links below

🧠 Mental Health Support

If you have been affected by any of the themes in this episode, or are currently struggling with your mental health, the following resources may be useful.

Mind: mind.org.uk/information-support
Samaritans (UK): Call free on 116 123
Samaritans (Rest of World): Email jo@samaritans.org

Connect With Us

Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect

Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14

Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.

Full transcript

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Danielle WoodSo I go inside and, um, as I walk into the kitchen, I can't describe it as anything other than a scene outta Texas Chainsaw Massacre. There was blood everywhere. Uh, as the police arrived, they were like, put that down, don't touch that. Um, I was taken to one side. They decided that I potentially was a perpetrator and I'd attacked Sophie.

Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.

Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.

Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.

Al ElliottWelcome back. Welcome back. Lots of, lots of love recently on LinkedIn for, for our pod. There's a dog sneeze in the background for you. It's not, it's not a sound effect. It's a real dog. So welcome back. If you are new here, as we always say, then it's all about creating amazing workplaces and amazing places to work. Leanne's the expert, I'm not. So I'll be asking the questions that you probably have in your head as and when we talk. The dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.

Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all. Every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.

Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

Leanne ElliottYes, if you are joining us for the first time in 2024, welcome. It's February, hurrah! And February is a very important month for a number of reasons.

Al ElliottYes, February is LGBTQ+ History Month, and we'd be interested to hear what your organization is doing for it. In case you haven't heard anything about it, don't worry, our guests are going to explain it all in a second. We thought the best way we can contribute as allies is to bring you some pretty special guests in February, so we're kicking things off with the extraordinary Danielle and Sophie from the Belonging Base Consultancy.

Leanne ElliottYes, Danielle and Sophie Wood, from university sweethearts navigating the complexities of gender transition. Danielle and Sophie have weathered many of life's storms together. Their journey encompasses challenges with mental health, employment transitions, and the intricacies of navigating diverse relationships. In 2023, they co-founded Belonging Base. They were driven by a genuine commitment to LGBTQ plus issues and mental health. And Danny and Sophie use their experience of leading diversity and inclusion teams to help business leaders build inclusive cultures that enhance the human experience. They are committed to positive change, and today we'll be learning more about their own lived experiences of belonging and how it shapes the work they do today with clients. This is an incredible story, and it's one that covers a lot of themes that some listeners may find challenging, including experiences with adverse mental health and suicide. Please do check the show notes if you're struggling at the moment. You'll find some useful resources and support that you can access straight away. Let's start our episode by meeting our incredible guests. Let's meet Danielle and Sophie Wood.

Danielle WoodMy name's Danielle Wood, and this is my partner Sophie Wood. We are a married couple. And we've been together, um, 31 years. Um, and together we formed our own business last year called Belonging Base. We're British citizens, but we're living, um, a lovely life on the Sunshine Coast in Spain. Having been married as husband and wife 21 years ago, um, Sophie transitioned, um, as transgender in, um, 2011. And that has fueled the story of where we are today.

Al ElliottOkay, as promised before, here is a short overview from Sophie of what LGBTQ+ Month is and why you should care.

Sophie WoodWell, it started out, um, and Danny, back me up on this, I think it was 2 teachers, wasn't it, who really wanted to increase the awareness of, um, children's education around, um, LGBTQ communities and And issues. Typical history syllabus would not include any reference to people from, you know, LGBT groups, do you think? So that was the kind of impetus behind it all starting. I can't remember the teachers' names, but fair play to them. And it's kind of grown into this, this kind of part of the Colour of the Month where we can actually tell people's stories. And also when you're telling somebody's story, or if you're giving somebody a voice to tell their own story, for example, Then that's when human connections, um, are possible.

Al ElliottSo at this point, we'd usually set the scene and tell you what to expect from the episode, but these women have an incredible story which they're gonna share straight away. So let's start with Sophie.

Sophie WoodBut if I look at my personal journey, just to put it all into context, when I was in my mid-30s, I had, from an outlooker's perspective, kind of dream life. So I had a great job working in UK policing. Beautiful wife, Danielle, great relationship with my parents, great friends, uh, extended family networks, had everything going for me. But at that time, I was experiencing sustained periods of depression. And I was, to the extent that I was actually self-harming, um, which is kind of quite strange because there was no tangible reason why that should be. So I had to go on that journey to try and solve that problem. So. That entailed 2 years basically of, of CBT, speaking to a psychologist. And it was working through those 2 years of, of conversations, um, they actually had an epiphany moment, which was, oh my God, I, I am, I am Sophie. I am, I am female. So all of these kind of feelings which have been with me since a small child, but have been supremely and expertly locked down. into kind of parts of myself which, um, I didn't want to kind of get in touch with suddenly came to the fore. So I made this huge decision, really brave decision, um, knowing that I could lose everything if I, if I came out to friends and family. Um, and, and, and initially that's exactly what happened. It was worst case scenario that my family rejected me. I still haven't spoken to my kind of parents and brother since that moment. Lost pretty much the entirety of our friends group, bar 2 people. Ended up losing the place where we lived. Initially kind of lost the marriage relationship with Danielle, and also contact with her side of the family as well. So I'd kind of thrown all my eggs into one basket big time with that decision to actually do something, make my life better. And just after that happened, I got a letter from the kind of local hospital, the PCT, who did the funding at that time, telling me that they weren't going to fund me to actually engage with the NHS in terms of supporting my transition. And that kind of, because I'd just lost everything, making this huge decision, had a dramatic effect on my mental health. And that led to— Um, uh, kind of serious self-harm suicide event, um, which for the poor Danielle, who was dealing with my, the shock of my transition, actually turned her into an attempted murder suspect.

Al ElliottNow that's how Sophie describes it. What about Danielle? What does she remember about that evening?

Danielle WoodImagine this, if you will. Um, we were both working for the police at the time, and on this particular day, um, I was hosting an awards ceremony. Um, at police headquarters with the Deputy Chief Constable. Had a lovely evening, um, packed up, wrapped up, got started going home, drew up on the drive in the car, and the front door's wide open. It's late at night, it's dark. Um, and I'm thinking, what on earth is our front door doing open? I didn't say I was on my way. Um, and so I called, I called Sophie's name and she said, leave the door open, leave the door open, and sounded quite panicked. So I go inside and, um, as I walk into the kitchen, I can't describe it as anything other than a scene outta Texas Chainsaw Massacre. There was blood everywhere and Sophie's lying on the floor kind of semi-conscious. And I'm kind of in shock. I, I don't really know what's going on. And all of a sudden a first responder arrives and kind of like appears in the kitchen and I'm I'm, I'm just, I don't know what happened because, you know, when you watch crime dramas on TV and they say, don't touch the knife. Well, I touched the knife and I not only touched the knife, I picked it up and my little kind of thing about cleanliness, I actually went to the sink and washed it up, um, and put it on the side. And, uh, as the police arrived, they were like, put that down. Don't touch that. Um, I was taken to one side. They decided that I potentially was a perpetrator and I'd attacked Sophie, and they decided that it was, um, I would need to be detained. So I wasn't allowed near Sophie. I had a police escort. They took my house keys off me. I had tape around the house. I wasn't allowed back in until scenes of crime had been in. Um, and do you know what? The fortunate part for me was that that evening I had been with the Deputy Chief Constable of that police force, which meant that when it came to alibi time, they were able to check me out pretty quick. So I, you know, I was back in the house the next morning, but it was, it was a really traumatic night. Really traumatic night.

Sophie WoodIt was. And we, we can look back on it with a sense of humor, I think, um, because of that, that scenario, 'cause we are big fans of, of crime dramas.

Leanne ElliottBut the seri—

Sophie Woodthe serious note of that was Um, I ended up recovering from that and I was then spent a week in a mental health unit, which was a really fascinating, um, experience. Very, very scary. Um, not enjoyable at all. And whilst all this was happening, um, we're still both working at police headquarters. So all of our colleagues at work have got no idea that all of this stuff is happening. So I literally came out of a mental health institution back into work and carried on with my training role. And everyone just thought I'd had a, you know, short absence for some reason. The reason that I've started off talking about mental health is I mentioned there that pre-transition, I had at least this kind of serious low mental health. with periods of ill mental health interspersed over a series of years. But post-transition, I have what I can only describe as a kind of inner light inside of me, which is actually quite beautiful, I think. Which means that I have a kind of resilience within me that I can actually deal with most things that life throws at me. And being a binary trans woman, life has thrown quite a lot in, in my direction.

Leanne ElliottIt is quite the story. What we love about these women is how honest and open they are. This really is the first step in driving positive change because people's lived experiences breed understanding and empathy and compassion. And for those with a similar lived experience, reassurance that they're not alone. So fast forward a few months and Sophie has made the brave decision to to tell the world that she is transgender. So what was this like for Danielle?

Danielle WoodWhen Sophie first told me that she was transgender, it was, I think, in the April of that year. And then the incident in the kitchen was kind of later on that summer. And it was— it kind of rocked our worlds. And as she said, she was actually— had— it got so bad that we ended up, um, having to, um, section her. For a while. She came out of there and everybody in our lives had an opinion on what was going on at the time. People were telling me what I should do, what I shouldn't do. Every time we left the house, people stared at us, people made comments. They went round the supermarket aisles twice to look at us, and I just, I just was finding the whole thing overwhelming. And As part of that, I tried really, really hard to kind of like carry on as, you know, life as normal. And after a while, it just got, it just got too much. My mental health was suffering. I had some time off work. I had counseling. I think the counselor that I had helped me get to where I am today. Without them, I don't know where I would've been. And when I say that, that's because At the time, there was not a lot in mainstream media about, um, being transgender. There was hardly any resources on the internet. And I was really, really struggling to find help. And the doctors decided, because they didn't have anyone who dealt with this kind of situation, they sent me off to see 3 therapists to pick one to see whether, you know, how I could work with them. And the, the one that I went to see that I, I kind of like felt an affinity with and we started to work together. Was one that said, look, I, I can't say that I've had these, this experience before, but what I'm looking at is I'm looking at you and I'm listening to you. And what I'm hearing is that you are going through a type of bereavement. You are going through a loss of your husband, the life that you have now, the way that you are perceived in society, and also the loss of a life that you thought you had, the future you thought you had. Which really resonated with me because it was, it was a total U-turn in terms of our life. The kind of, the question which probably changed everything was she said to me, what's your greatest fear? And I said it was losing my best friend. And of course she looked at me and said, well, why do you need to do that? And I hadn't even thought, I thought it was a kind of All in or all out. And, um, so she's, so from that, we worked with that and, um, it, we decided that maybe do we just be friends or do we carry on in our relationship? And as part of that, um, she encouraged me to think about other avenues and exploring other things. And I thought with all the white noise, with all of the staring, with all of the chatter, I thought, do you know what? I'm going to just make a break. And I'm going to say, I'm gonna go off and do something completely different, 6 months, and then that will clear my mind, give me some space, and enable me to work out what, what I want to do next. So I ended up packing up my entire life into the back of a Fiat 500, which you can imagine was tough, and driving down to the south of Spain and finding a job in Gibraltar, which is an English-speaking British Overseas Territory. And that 6 months was, was pivotal to the rest of our lives. And in fact, strange enough, Sophie actually drove down with me to actually deliver me to Spain. And then she stayed a couple of weeks and I put her on a plane back to the UK 2 weeks later. And the moment she left, I felt like I'd lost my, my arm or my leg. It was like I knew in that moment that I felt like I'd made a mistake, that being apart wasn't what I wanted. But in actual fact, it was probably what I needed to solidify that thought because that time period made me realize that your connection with a human being is much more than Being husband and wife and being seen as acceptable in society, that heterosexual couple which blends in. Yes, things were gonna be more tough. Yes, people were going to look at Sophie as transgender. And actually, she's now thrown me into a world where the rest of the world sees me as in a lesbian couple if we stay together. So that was really hard for me as well, and it still to this day remains uncomfortable in certain situations. situations, particularly in work situations where, you know, you're meeting new people and you're not sure whether you trust that somebody's going to be supportive or not, which is fundamentally one of the reasons that when we decided to pool our resources and experiences, um, to, to form Belonging Base, it was about helping people to not have to go through those really, really uncomfortable experiences in their personal life and at work. Because when you are feeling that you are hiding, that you are being cautious about who you trust all the time, it just puts you on edge and you don't really, you don't, you don't really progress.

Al ElliottTalking of the workplace, we wanted to know how Sophie's colleagues reacted.

Sophie WoodSo my experience in the workplace has been largely positive because of the people. who are working with me and the way that they actually kind of treat me. Now, because they're dealing with me day in, day out, they just see me as the same as them, a human being doing a job. So, any kind of, uh, turns disappears usually within about 2 hours of meeting me. And then it's just a normal human relationship. We make human connections with each other, just like people do in teams all over the world. But what I found in all organizations is what I call these concentric circles of hate. So, the inner core of people who deal with me and know me get on absolutely fine. There's no issues at all. And then when you go wider out into the company, where people don't see me or interact with me on a daily basis, their kind of behavior towards me and the language that they use, that's reported back to me on occasion, Is, is, is, you know, gets worse and worse. And then when you go into the wider company in quite a few organizations, then they just have this experience of taking on information from, from mainstream media.

Al ElliottNow, the media does seem to like this subject. There are so many articles online and many of them dismiss transgenderism, easy for me to say, as a mental health condition. I must admit, until I met Sophie, I wasn't entirely sure how it all worked myself. So I asked Sophie to school me.

Sophie WoodIt's, it's not a mental health condition. It's, it's, it's quite difficult to explain to people because it's just kind of an innate, an innate, um, feeling. In my case, I'm a binary trans woman, so my gender identity is congruent with who I am on the inside. Everything is, is lined up, and people try and kind of turn it into an educational exercise. And going to the other definitions and things like that. People always say gender identity is in the brain, but it's more than that. I think it is in the brain, but it's also in your heart and in your soul. And it's absolutely definitive. And it's also something that should be really private to me. Ideally in life, it really shouldn't impact anybody else's life. And in the main, it doesn't at all.

Leanne ElliottSome people who dismiss the transgender experience use the argument that it shouldn't exist in the first place. Despite the complexities and social constructs surrounding the idea of gender, some people believe that if you are born with male genitalia, you're a man, and if you are born with female genitalia, you're a woman. Their argument is that nobody can be transgender. Sophie explains this way of thinking isn't Quite right.

Sophie WoodSo basically, it's a belief that sex is immutable. So it's kind of, you are born male or female, that's determined by your genitalia. And there is nothing else in science that exists outside of that. Therefore, a trans identity is completely invalid. That's, that's kind of a simple way of describing that belief system. The science doesn't back that up. One of the frustrating things for me, I came out, as I said, in 2011. Is these kind of debates all across Europe and in many other countries around the world, these debates were settled in, you know, kind of from the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s. And it should be a complete non-issue. So those kind of macro issues, if you kind of think about The, the kind of press coverage around trans issues, which remember, between 0.1, 0.5, 0.6, I don't know the exact figures, percent of the population. It's absolutely tiny. And it really shouldn't be public interest at all. But it is used as a, as a kind of way of distracting people from what's actually really going on.

Al ElliottYou may have seen the other argument from certain people who we won't name on YouTube, that this is just an excuse for men to get access to female-only areas. So is there any truth to this? Well, who better to ask than someone who had complete access to the National Sex Offenders Database? Here's Sophie again.

Sophie WoodSo the main kind of myth about trans people at the moment is that we are a threat to women and girls in private spaces. So the theory is that somebody who is not trans, who's a predatory male, will actually go through and engage with a kind of gender transition in order to facilitate their modus operandi, their MO, in committing a sexual offense against a woman or a girl. Now, when you actually consider that in the cold light of day, it's— as a proposition, it just dissipates on contact with air, really. It's actually quite a ridiculous notion. When I worked in the police service, I trained and had access to all of the national kind of crime systems. So I had access to national crime data at my fingertips. I trained the National Sex Offenders Database, I had access to all of that data. And at that point, there were zero crimes recorded in the UK following that modus operandi. There was only one crime I found when searching the Police National Computer, which was somebody taking on the guise of a female to make their escape. So it's some guys did over a post office, and they dressed in burqas to actually kind of disperse themselves into a crowd. So that was the only time in the whole criminal justice history of the UK, as of 2015, which, you know, hopefully is quite informative to people who like things like facts, that it is completely a non-issue. And if you look at the kind of countries who practice, you know, self-ID, you know, places like Malta Island, Just to name 2, they also have zero instances of people being threatened at all. So it's a complete fallacy. But this informs what is supposedly this grand debate, culture war debate in mainstream media, which you'll never see a trans person partaking in.

Leanne ElliottIt's an absurd notion that trans people are predators, yet it's one I hear spouted online a lot. This narrative is not only incorrect and grossly unfair, it's dangerous. This misinformation spreads fear, which spreads aggression, which spreads violence. Transgender individuals and communities experience shocking amounts of violence and discrimination. In fact, transgender people are over 4 times more likely to be victims of violent crime, including rape, Sexual assault and aggravated assault. This narrative is dangerous. This narrative needs to stop.

Al ElliottYeah, clearly there were a lot of changes for both Danielle and Sophie when Sophie transitioned, but there was something that became glaringly obvious to Sophie when she presented her new self.

Sophie WoodWhen I presented as Sophie, and I, I didn't look very good in terms of what people termed passing at the time, because I didn't do any kind of, you know, any preparations or whatnot. Then I wasn't perceived as female, I was perceived as other. Okay. But the thing that hit me right in the face was I lost all of the male privilege that I'd had up to that moment in my life. The ability to walk into a shop, the, you know, to go into a bar, sit down, read a book, strike a conversation with somebody, completely disappeared overnight. Now, I didn't know that I had male privilege. Until I didn't have it.

Leanne ElliottYeah.

Sophie WoodAnd that's the challenge. And that's why that kind of mindset is wrong, but it's a real tough nut to crack. The greatest trick privilege ever pulled is convincing people it didn't exist.

Al ElliottNow, Sophie did concede in the full interview that she's paraphrased Keyser Söze from The Usual Suspects movie there, but still, what a line. As we've alluded to before, Danielle and Sophie have set up a consultancy to help organizations be more inclusive. Here's Sophie to explain their reasoning, and she starts by telling a story about when she was working for the police service in the UK.

Sophie WoodIt was East Midlands Regional Group of Forces. I was there speaking about my journey, and I like a bit of audience participation, so I threw it out and said, why are you here today? And a police officer at the front said, I'm here as a punishment. And there was a group of police officers, like 10 of them, who had done something bad in their duties out in the community. And as a punishment, they'd been sent on this diversity course. And I found that quite amusing at the time, but it really started my brain working overtime. And I suddenly realized that they were the people that I needed to speak to. They are the hearts and minds that I need to change. If I want to make, you know, my diversity inclusion work actually effective. When we're talking about transgender issues now, we're having the same conversations I was having back then, over 10 years later. And I've noticed that in the corporate D&I world, nothing's really moved forward. And because of that experience, that's informed my belief that In order for D&I to be effective, you need to talk to the 95% of people who don't give a shit about D&I, rather than the continual 5% who really get it. And if I was gonna characterize corporate D&I at the moment, it's this giant echo chamber of people who are really passionate about diversity inclusion, speaking to people Who are interested in diversity inclusion and therefore really get it. And so I think that's one of the main reasons why things just haven't moved forward as much as they should do.

Al ElliottThis is such a revelation to me because Sophie's absolutely right. There is zero point in talking about this to people who are already converted, that whole preaching to the choir thing. It's the non-believers who need to hear this, which is why I genuinely hope that this is an uncomfortable but necessary listen for some people. But when it comes to seeking change in the workforce, millennials and Gen Z are, as usual, spearheading the campaign.

Danielle WoodOne of the things that we've been coming across time and time again through research and actually speaking to members of Generation Z, Gen Z, is that their views and their values are very different in what they want an employer In the workplace. This started with the millennials and now the Gen Z, and by, I think it's 2030, about 30-odd percent of the workplace will be from that generation. And they're looking at their workplaces and going to interviews and asking these two-way questions. It's no longer an interview where the business just asks you about your skills and experience and what you can bring to the table. But they see it as a two-way conversation and they're finding out whether the employer is a good fit for them. And if they don't have inclusion at the front and center of what they do, and if their corporate social responsibility, et cetera, their ethical values are not aligned, they're unlikely to want to pursue a career with that organization. And so I think businesses really do need to think about this because as we move through the next couple of decades, the people that don't put so much importance on it will be falling out of the workplace. And if business owners don't start to look at making sure that their culture is inclusive, they just won't attract and retain the best talent. So, I always say it's a little bit like, you know, are they heading towards extinction? Um, are they dinosaurs?

Leanne ElliottDanielle and Sophie have had extensive experience working with organisations to improve inclusion and belonging. So, who do they think is doing a particularly good job? Here's Sophie.

Sophie WoodI think a good example from the UK that I'm aware of, where their kind of external values are, you know, really lived vicariously through their kind of value sets within their teams, and they've got a really great inclusive culture, is actually Ansemis. So, I've got some former colleagues who work at Ansemis. In the UK, and they are, I think, really, really switched on in terms of everything that we're talking about. Well, one of the things that they're doing really well is they've introduced a kind of, which would traditionally be termed a kind of learning experience platform, where people can access, you know, personal growth learning, but they're using it as an effective learning tool. People that can be accessed remotely through all of their retail networks. But they're also using that platform to kind of effectively communicate their culture and their values, to shine light on areas of the business and people in the business who, you know, wouldn't normally get a look in. And they're creating some really great levels of human connection.

Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?

Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.

Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking.

Al ElliottAnd you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of No UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—

Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.

Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioral science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well. It is.

Leanne ElliottIt's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)It can.

Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)I am.

Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

Leanne ElliottBut come back.

Al ElliottYeah, come back.

midroll (Phil Agnew, Nudge)Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this, so come back.

Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in.

Leanne ElliottWhat's interesting is that both Danielle and Sophie totally accept that the traditional way of incorporating DIB into business is not working as well as it should be. But with their new consultancy Belonging Base, Are they doing things a little differently?

Sophie WoodWhat we are trying to do at Belonging Base is to say, we're not gonna focus on what I call the kind of painting by numbers, you know, diversity inclusion models. We want to actually really get into the cultures in organizations. We wanna be getting into the team level, speaking with people. Helping them to deal with each other in the best way that they possibly can. So, we want to focus on the things that we have in common with people rather than the differences that set us apart. Now, one thing that we know we all have is mental health. And that is a really good way of helping to change the conversations that people have in their teams and in their workplace. So when I trained up as a mental health first aid instructor, um, we actually discussed things like practicing the skill of listening non-judgmentally to other people. We do a big piece around what's called the frame of reference, which is a model to help you realize that when you are dealing with somebody, they bring their whole life experience, their identity, their sexual orientation, their beliefs. Their socioeconomic background, their work experience to that point. And all of those factors in their individual frame of reference make them who they are at that moment in time. And that frame of reference is going to be entirely individual to them and completely different from yours. And just by appreciating that, you have an immediate change in mindset in how you deal with people. In terms of what kind of, I hope the change that I see in cultures Is that people will no longer be talking about the business case for diversity inclusion.

Danielle WoodYeah.

Sophie WoodOne of the things I would say, if I was kind of, if I want to see a new startup coming into the marketplace and they set aside money, they think, yeah, let's do some DE&I work, then I would urge them not to spend that money on a DE&I specialist. I would get them to spend that money training their leaders to be the best people they possibly can and facilitating these kind of team workshops where, where people can really make those connections.

Al ElliottNow, we've talked about belonging on the pod many, many times before, but here we have 2 women who both have experienced a huge change. And as they mentioned before, the change was not accepted by everyone. So I asked Danielle what belonging really means to her and how we can build a culture of belonging and inclusion in a workplace.

Danielle WoodThe feeling that we had when we first went through the transition was that we didn't feel like we belonged anymore. We felt like we were kind of like outsiders. And the people that have made our experiences great moving forward, it wasn't necessarily a particular company. It was particular people and managers and teams that made us feel welcome and helped support us in developing our careers. So for me, it's not about Because there are lots of companies that win awards, you know, don't get me wrong. But if you spoke to every single person in that business, do they all feel like they belong? One of the things that I, I came across through one of your old podcasts actually was the quote by John Amici, the culture is defined by the worst behavior tolerated, which I absolutely agree with because That's, that, that kind of backs up what I've just been talking about, which is that depending on where you are, if you let banter happen, if you let discrimination happen in your area, everyone thinks that's okay. The reason we picked Belonging Base, one of the reasons was we started with that feeling of belonging. I think for us it was really personal, so There's a quote, I think, I think it was Brené Brown talks about belonging and the difference being the opposite to belonging is fitting in. And we spent a lot of time just trying to fit in and stay under the radar. And it really does affect your performance and your mental health. So what we would like to do, if it's, even if it's just one company at a time, one team at a time, we want to be the people that you go to if you really want to have that feeling that, that create that culture where people feel that they truly belong and can be their best selves. It's, it's all about that belonging feeling for us. We felt it, we didn't feel it, and then we feel it again. So, and it does make such a big, big difference to what you're capable of at work.

Al ElliottWhat's so interesting about the story is that Danielle is really open about her own experiences and challenges with being Sophie's partner. There are a lot of stories out there from the perspective of the person transitioning, but what about those who are most close to them? Here's Danielle again.

Danielle WoodI think when you're a partner of somebody that's going through a transition, it's— for me anyway, it was a journey I didn't think I would be on, one that I didn't want to be on, and one that I had a very adverse reaction to initially, so much so that I threw myself into work and had a burnout. I basically crashed and burned and then spent a whole week in bed and then 7 weeks off work. So, and I, I thought my whole world had fallen in. I, and I had some very dark thoughts. And I look at my life today and we're living, we're living our dream really now, you know, behind me. go confidently. We, we are living our dream. We're living in the south of Spain. We're living our best life now. And had I let that get the better of me at the time, we may not be sitting here today. I went through a whole period of denial for quite some time, and I couldn't get myself out of that area. And I think with the help of a professional, I actually got to the other side. And if you don't feel comfortable speaking professional, reach out to people like us that have been through the experience, because we're always happy to talk to people who are in that dark place and can't see the way out, because it's, it does, it does knock you for 6 when something like this happens and your life kind of gets totally turned upside down. So my advice would be talking to people and getting professional help.

Sophie WoodYeah. Find somebody you can trust. Um, make sure that you speak words out loud. That's really important for your internal processing. But first and foremost, focus on the future. However kind of dark you're feeling, if you focus on the future, even if it's one day in the future, one week in the future, one month in the future, you'll just automatically start looking forward to something.

Leanne ElliottYes.

Sophie WoodAnd that's the essence of hope, is that looking forward to something in the future. And that's the key to still being around, kind of at the age of 52, as Danielle says, living our dream life in Spain with beautiful property, lovely kind of cultural surroundings, 3 beautiful dogs, living our best lives, which could have ended. So easily.

Leanne ElliottTransgender and gender identity is a complex topic and one that is not spoken about enough, certainly in terms of the actual facts. If this is all new to you, if you want some help understanding what it is to be transgender and how to better support people in your workplace, Sophie has some excellent book recommendations.

Sophie WoodSo the first one— I do recommend this— is It's called Trans Britain: Our Journey from the Shadows by the wonderful Christine Burns. And if you really want to kind of find out what really the trans community is all about, what we've achieved over the last few decades, that's the read for you. If you want to kind of look at in more detail the kind of culture wars that are going on at the moment, this book is an absolute showstopper. The Transgender Issue by Shon Faye. Absolutely extraordinary author and really kind of picks all that bullshit out in a very articulate and entertaining way.

Al ElliottAnd of course, if you want to chat with these amazing people, then here's how to get in touch.

Sophie WoodBest way to access us is through our LinkedIn profiles. Follow Belonging Base on LinkedIn. You can go on our website as well and just click on the Contact Us button. And we'll be happy to take things forward with you.

Leanne ElliottDuring LGBTQ+ History Month, Danielle and Sophie are offering sessions for anyone who's interested, kind of like a lunch and learn.

Danielle WoodSo we delve into, you know, what is LGBTQ History Month, some of the key changes that have happened in terms of history over the last 50+ years through our lifetime, which is actually really recent history in terms of equality, right? And then we look at things like the language, the confusion around language, how people are worried that they're going to trip themselves up and reinforcing, you know, it's not a problem, don't worry. And also we look at a little bit of our personal journey about the belonging, the not belonging, and the belonging again, and how important that is in the workplace and talk to businesses about allyship as well.

Sophie WoodWe're kind of intermingling that with our own kind of timeline of our little life on Earth so far, and hopefully being quite entertaining at the same time.

Leanne ElliottWe could do another 3 or 4 episodes with Danielle and Sophie alone, let alone expand the conversation around the transgender experience. It's, it's a big complex topic that is misunderstood, but one that is really important we engage with. We do better to understand And we don't shy away from, we don't fear.

Al ElliottYeah. And as Danielle said, the younger generations are looking at you and they are judging you on whether you're actually taking on board all this stuff, whether you're actually doing something about it. Now, the kind of the thing which really surprised me was the whole idea about the sort of white male privilege. And of course, Sophie's got this unique perspective in that she's, you know, she's been both on both sides of that, of that fence. And I suppose I joke about it quite often saying, you know, I'm sort of a Gen X, white, straight, all this kind of thing. I'm kind of quite lucky to take advantage of that privilege, really.

Leanne ElliottAnd also the opportunities, well, I think that you have to support the people around you, to be an ally to women, to trans people, to members of the LGBTQ+ community. We're not hating on, you know, I think a lot of the media hates on the white straight male. It's not that, it's more a case of, Male privilege is real. White privilege is real. If we can use this privilege to support people around us and improve the whole human experience for everyone, then that is really something that we should be doing, especially as business leaders, as people in these positions of authority. We should be taking accountability for the human experience. I loved what Sophie said. We're all humans. You're only a human being too. And that is making it hugely simplified, and we're not taking away from the complexities of the experience and stories different, different communities have. But when it boils down to it, if we actually just consider the human experience within our organisations, it's a pretty good first step.

Al ElliottYeah, and as Danielle said, it's okay to get it wrong. It's if you, if you want to get it right that makes the big difference, I think. So next week we have the incredible Dr. Clare Hughes from Mind. If you're not from the UK, you don't know what Mind is, it's a huge mental health charity. Um, it's a really big deal. And then we have the amazing author and podcaster Bruce Daisley. And then rounding off our LGBTQ+ month, we have the father of workplace culture himself, John Amici.

Leanne ElliottYes, it's gonna be an incredible episode, an incredible lineup. I'm so excited. And what a way to continue our February content with the incredible Danielle and Sophie and bring you our very small contribution towards LGBTQ+ History Month. Definitely go and follow them on social media, on LinkedIn, to see everything they're up to. Danielle and Sophie, thank you so much for your contributions to this episode. It has been an incredible one and one that I think will always remain very special. Thank you.

Al ElliottOkay, we'll see you next week. Bye-bye.

Leanne ElliottAl is grumpy, grumpy, grumpy Al, grumpy Al. Listening, listening, listening, listening.

Al Elliott17.

Leanne Elliott2017. At this point, if you're watching this on a blooper and you actually watch the bloopers And you know what I mean when I say 2017, I want to take you for a drink. Get in touch.

Al ElliottWe'll fly you out to Mostar.

Leanne ElliottCarry on now.

Al ElliottOkay.