Episode 64 · 16 November 2023 · 43:35
64: Michael Girdley: How a $100m+ Founder is Revolutionising Tomorrow's Workplace
64: Michael Girdley: How a $100m+ Founder is Revolutionising Tomorrow's Workplace
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Chapters & timestamps
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How Al found Michael Girdley on Twitter
Generational differences in the workplace
Why we talk about generations (and why it matters)
Growing up in the age of everything being measured
People are not widgets — great leaders know this
Understanding people: the most rewarding manager skill
Why Al likes games where he has an unfair advantage
Recruiting at scale — what Michael's 1,000+ employees teach us
The lazy manager trap
Michael on the future of work
The remote work debate — where Michael stands
Show notes
Michael Girdley: How a $100m+ Founder is Revolutionising Tomorrow's Workplace
Episode 64 — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) dive into their conversation with Michael Girdley — a $100m+ founder, investor, and CEO of ScalePath — exploring the future of work, generational differences, and why "learning how to learn" might be the most valuable skill of the AI era.
In this episode, Al breaks down the highlights from his conversation with Michael, including why integrity and loyalty still matter more than ever, how America's "feedback loop" culture shapes its approach to business, and where Michael really stands on the remote work debate. Plus, Al and Leanne unpack the generational divide — and why understanding people is the most difficult but most rewarding skill a manager can learn.
🧠 Key Themes from the Episode
1. Generational differences are real — but not in the way you think. Al and Leanne dig into what actually shapes Gen X, Gen Z, and everyone in between. It's not about labels — it's about the world each generation grew up in and how that shapes their relationship with work.
2. People are not widgets. The best leaders understand that a one-size-fits-all approach to management is a recipe for failure. Understanding what makes each person tick is hard — but it's the most rewarding skill a manager can develop.
3. The future of work is about learning how to learn. With AI reshaping industries, Michael argues that the ability to adapt and learn quickly is becoming more valuable than any specific technical skill. And on remote work? His answer might surprise you — it depends on the company you want to build.
💬 What We Loved
- Al's story about the job candidate who asked for a ridiculous salary — and the lesson it taught him about knowing your worth
- The "lazy manager" trap — why taking the easy route as a manager is a fast track to a disengaged team
- Michael's take on America as a "feedback loop" — and what that means for innovation and risk-taking
🔗 Resources & Links
More from Michael Girdley:
- Twitter/X: twitter.com/girdley
- Website: girdley.com
- Newsletter: girdley.com/subscribe-2/
- ScalePath: joinscalepath.com
Listen back to Truth, Lies & Work for more on:
- Advanced EDI for Leaders: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/62-from-bystander-to-ally-how-to-avoid-deib-washing_2514/
- Building Resilient Workplaces: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/ep40-building-resilient-workplaces-the-triple-defence-approach-to-mental-health-in-action_2295/
- The 4-Day Work Week — THE Trend of 2024?: truthliesandwork.com/truth-lies-work-podcast/4-day-work-week-for-business-owners-and-leaders_2251/
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Like, I just love trying to understand somebody's motivations, trying to understand what they're trying to do. Like, it's a puzzle to be figured out for me, and people are just fascinating, complex puzzles.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottWe are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottYeah, I realise that's 64 times we've said that now. Isn't that weird?
Leanne ElliottI'm not sure we have, actually.
Al ElliottAnyway, so there's plenty of things going on here at Truthy Towers. You're probably going to see lots of projects coming out from us at the moment. We've been invited to a few more shows, which is very exciting. So if you're in the UK, uh, then in 2024 you've got the chance to—
Leanne ElliottWe'll be everywhere.
Al ElliottYeah, you've got a chance to come and meet us, meet and greet, all that kind of thing. We only charge £20 per photo. Uh, we've got a keynote potentially coming up. We've got lots and lots of content. And of course, the amazing guests. We've still got about 20 more guests to bring you by the end of the year, really. We're, um, we've got so much stuff to bring you. All we're saying is that you're probably going to see us around quite a lot over the next few weeks.
Leanne ElliottYes, you are. And I guess a quick reminder really for anyone listening who wants to create an amazing workplace culture, which I'd imagine you do, otherwise why would you be listening? Or maybe you're wondering why your workplace culture isn't amazing. That could be why you're listening. But if you are one of those people who are listening who wants to create an amazing workplace culture, we have created a simple and very powerful 3-part process for building a phenomenal workplace culture. It is of course based on our RX7 model, which regular listeners will have heard of, I'm sure. At the moment it is invite only, which is why we're only really talking about it on the podcast or to people we know who really care about people and culture. So if you are a business owner looking to grow in 2024, or perhaps a leader looking to build the world's greatest team, maybe you're eyeing up an exit, perhaps looking for that money money, and then get in touch. Here's your badge. Get your bag. Yeah, get in touch. We'll send you an application for the RX7. It will help you create awesome workplace cultures, improve employee wellbeing, retain the very best of talent, and ultimately give you the data insights you need to sell your business in 2024. So there you go. That's enough said on that. I'm returning to my cup of tea.
Al ElliottYeah, well said, Le. Um, you'll notice it's not well publicised for a very specific reason, because we are only after a very specific type of person. Um, so, uh, yeah, if, if this sounds like it's up your street, drop us an email and we'll send you a link to the application form. Okay, so the bad news today is you're not going to hear much of us really, because the good news is that we've got Twitter's number one business advisor on the pod today. If you've seen any tweets or Xs— it's just not the same, you can't call it X. Come on, Elon, if you're listening.
Leanne ElliottLike, if you've seen Maid Girls and she's like, fetch. Stop saying fetch, fetch. It's not gonna catch on.
Al ElliottRight. It's not. No, I haven't seen it.
Leanne ElliottIt's not gonna catch on, Elon. Let go, man. It's Twitter.
Al ElliottSorry, Elon.
Leanne ElliottSays the non-Twitter user in the room.
Al ElliottI only use it to, to stalk people. And that's how I found Michael because, um, basically if you've ever seen any tweets like I have around about business or leadership or anything like that, there's a very good chance you have seen our guest today because he's involved in almost every discussion. He's got nearly 200,000 followers. I think it's 196. 7,000 followers at the moment. He employs over 1,000 people across all of his organisations. He has grown, for example, his family-owned firework company, Alamo Fireworks. He's grown it to the largest firework company in Texas. He's also founded Jura Software, which is one of San Antonio's largest companies. He's the genius behind ScalePath. You've probably seen that on Twitter and you've seen it online. He's also been Geek of the Year. He's been Man of the Year. He's probably likely Twitterer of the Year. He's one of my personal heroes. I'm delighted to welcome Michael Girdley to the podcast. The first question I had to ask him was, why does everyone seem to turn to him on Twitter for advice? Uh, I definitely feel like I am turning into kind of the internet's, uh, weird business uncle. You know, that uncle that you have that your mom can't really explain what he does all day, but every time there's like a business question, it's like, go ask Uncle Michael. Like, I think, I think that tends to be my persona. I think Also on social media, I'm infamous for being just like overwhelmingly positive, which is a strategy of mine. It's how I live my life and it's how I try to do things on social media for it. And it's intentional. In terms of what I do every day, I spend the majority of my time creating, owning, and supporting businesses. I'm a total business nerd. That's what I love to do ever since I was a kid. That's the most fun thing I can think about is being entrepreneurial. And so today I have about a dozen companies in varying states of growth, everything from from right now 2 people and a slide deck all the way up to companies with a couple hundred people. And, um, and that's what I do. I create, incubate, and grow companies.
Leanne ElliottRegular listeners will know that we are fascinated by how the generational differences are playing out in the workplace. Michael is a Gen Xer whose team spans multiple generations, so I wanted to find out what he thought separated Gen Xers at work and other generations.
Al ElliottThere's a bunch of things, you know, there's unique things about Gen X and primarily the idea of generational theory. And I'm a total dilettante in this, but I've read enough to talk about it on Twitter. But the idea of generational theory is the way generations and groups of people are shaped is totally dependent upon when technology showed up. And for most of us as Gen X who were born 1965 to 1980 here in the United States, so that makes the youngest of us kind of in the 43 years old and I'm 48, so I'm like, dead center, like case study Gen X right here, that really impacts your lifelong worldview. So for example, most of us grew up with baby boomer parents, either old baby boomers or greatest generation parents who were at work all the time and were also very difficult to connect with, right? Not from a just like interpersonal sense, but it's like 4 o'clock, school has ended. You're at home. You're by yourself as a Gen X because your parents are still at work and you're taking care of yourself. That it's not easy to find your parents. You get locked out of the house. Well, you're going to sit outside of the house until somebody comes home with a key to let you in. And that creates a very different set of approaches to life versus say somebody who's born more recently when cell phones are ubiquitous, right? Like my kids can instantly reach me any time of the day, which causes them to have a totally different worldview, for example, than we do as Gen X who grew up when it's like, well, maybe send your parents a fax and they'll get it later. Like that just totally, that totally changes and impacts your worldview. And if you think about all of technology from television to YouTube and all that kind of stuff, it changes the way young people and then afterwards as adults view the world and have perspective. So there's a ton of Gen X things, but that first one you could think about is Gen X have this like huge perspective of like, I'm on an island by myself. I have to be self-reliant because that's what they were taught as kids. There wasn't immediate access to all these different resources like kids have today. So you'll see us in the workplace do weird stuff like that. We want to be very independent as Gen X just because of the way technology affected us when we grew up. But the factors that affect the different generations is not just about technology, it's about integrity. One of the biggest complaints these days online about the younger generations is that they're a little bit flaky. Now, again, this is not my words. This is what you'll see on Reddit, Twitter, anyone who's tweeting about Gen Zed, that, that word often comes up. And whether that's true or not, it is interesting to understand why older generations think this about the younger generation. I'm a Gen Xer too. So Michael thinks it's down to not really having much choice about the matter. You're gonna know who all the people that you can trust are and that you're gonna have relationships with those people in your neighborhood. You're gonna be like, okay, well, I know I can always go to, uh, Aunt Jill, or I can go to this old guy cuz he's always at home and I know he's trustworthy. Right? And those relationships And the trust of those people is going to be very important and you're going to want them to trust you. And the way you get them to trust you is to do what you say, have high integrity and place value on consistency around following up and that sort of thing. Right? So you're like, Michael, what are these core values? They're not special. I'm just yet another Gen X who thinks the exact same way because of what happened when I was 11. It's just, anyway, this is super fun. But yeah, in terms of doing those things, I think I hopefully just answered the question of, well, what does it take? Like trust is built up over a lifetime and destroyed in a moment. Like that's very much exactly true with these sort of things. And, you know, I think as I've gotten older, I understand that there's a lot of people in the world and, you know, once you lose that trust, you generally have to go try to rebuild from fresh someplace else or do the hard work to try to rebuild it, which People that are the closest relationships in my life, I would definitely do that. And one of the ideas of generational theory is like each generation is a pendulum, like it swings back and forth, right? And if like, say for example, if you're part of a generation where your parents were helicoptering, right? Which is what a lot of younger millennials experienced through baby boomers and still have baby boomers trying to control their lives even as adults. You know, you are going to do exactly the opposite. As a parent, right? And like, let's say, or for example, let's say that you had a parent that was very distant and was very reserved and cold to you. Well, what are you going to do when you're a parent? You know, the child becomes a parent, they're going to do the exact opposite. So to some extent I give, like, my kids are Gen Z, they're 14 and 17, so they're kind of young Gen Zs at this point. And they're going to, you know, they're going to act in a certain way based not only on technology and how that's affecting their day-to-day life, but then also like, the weird things that my wife and I are doing because we're very hardcore Gen X, right? So they're going to respond in a way where we're like, okay, like this is your life. You get to decide what you want. Like we're, you know, my wife and I, for example, treat our kids almost as peers, right? Where it's like, well, no, like you're going to get to decide what you want to do. We don't, we're not going to control you at all because we're swinging the pendulum back and forth. And so what do my kids do? My kids, Then turn around and they treat us as friends, right? As opposed to like the way, like my relationship was with my parents or my grandparents who were just like much more like parental. And so there's interesting, weird, like byproducts of this. Like you'll see things where Gen Z, for example, like they, they'll do this thing where like they just walk into my closet and just like take my clothes. Like they just wear my clothes all the time, whatever they feel like it, shoes, stuff like, because we're friends, right? Like, because that's the way I've always treated them. And they're kind of the first generation to see their parents as friends, which is very different than all the previous generations.
Leanne ElliottWhat's interesting about generations is that, and the reason we talk about generations and the reason we consider them in, in psychological research as well, it's not just a pop culture thing that we bitch about generations and defining them has a purpose in social science. And what's interesting, particularly about the generations that we have floating around at the minute, is we have all had such different experiences. If you think about, you know, I'm what they call a geriatric millennial, which I don't really appreciate, but I understand. It means I'm an old millennial. I was born between 1980 and 1985. So in terms of growing up with technology, I was a lot less exposed than somebody who grew up— who was born in 1993, for example, who would also be classed as a millennial. But I think what's interesting is that when you are a millennial, you kind of do see it from both sides because I get the Gen X thing. I was a latchkey kid. I let myself in after work— after, after work, I went down the mines.
Al ElliottTough growing up in North Wales, wasn't it?
Leanne ElliottIt is. But no, I let myself in after, after school and stuff. And, and I can totally understand the, you know, the, the sense of this is the world it is, you gotta toughen up, you gotta get on with it if you want to get anywhere. But I also really hated that as a millennial entering workplace. So what I really like about Gen Z is that they are starting to change that conversation, changing the narrative about it. And I guess, you know, building on the changes that we've seen socially anyway in the last 50 years. And of course, one of the things that has really shaped Gen Z is their ability to carry around an insanely powerful computer in their pocket that's connected to the world's largest database and can give you an answer to any question at any time. So of course this shapes the way that they look at knowledge. And remember, this is all as well before pre-ChatGPT or ChatGPT. Gen Alpha won't just have the world's knowledge at their fingertips, they'll also have this advanced reasoning machine that can explain anything in any way that they like. So I'll ask Michael how he sees this changing the way the future generations approach work.
Al ElliottSo then the second part about Gen Z that's super interesting Is because they have grown up in a time where everything, all knowledge, everything they want is instantly accessible, right? Like, so there's not only the technology of YouTube, right? Which is they've YouTube-ified how they think about knowledge. They've also been in a situation where like items like Amazon, like Amazon of just like here in the US, like you press a button and it shows up the next day. Like it's just a freaking miracle, like compared to the way things were back in the '80s. When you had to get out the Sears catalog and hope it showed up someday. And so because of that, like Gen Z and my kids especially, they have no time for anything that isn't practical. Like it's either immediately useful and they understand why it's going to be useful to them, or they have no time for it whatsoever. So like we struggle in the case of my kids, for example, to get them to understand why algebra matters. Like we have lots of talks about, okay, like you got to learn algebra. Why do I need to learn algebra? Well, You want to do these other things 5 to 10 years from now, like you need to know algebra right now in order to be on a path to do that. And like that, like mind shift for them is like incredibly difficult because of the impact of not only the way we're acting as parents, but secondarily the way technology has affected their generation so deeply.
Leanne ElliottGenerational differences are undeniable, but we should try to understand generational differences. We definitely should not stereotype our teams based on their age alone.
Al ElliottI think that great leaders need to understand that people are not widgets, right? They're not uniform and not everybody wants to be treated the same way. So, generational theory and individual intelligence, what's going on in people's lives, where they are in their life, what's happening with their family, what their dreams and hopes are. I think those are all part of it. Um, for sure, I encourage people to consider generational theory as a way to try to meet their employees where they are. You know, a Gen X, for example, wants to be treated very differently than say your prototypical millennial, right? Millennials classically and stereotypically, they bring their whole selves to work. They're part of a tribe. They care about that kind of stuff much more than Gen X does because like you speak to me about a tribe, I'm going to be like, whatever. Like, I don't care. Like, just show me, it's all about the results to me. And that's very prototypical Gen X. And so, yeah, I think that's a factor, but I just want to be clear, like, I don't think you should stereotype people. I think you should just consider their generational aspects of them in terms of seeing them as an entire person, as a leader. And that's, that's what great leaders do, in my opinion. I think as a business owner, this is quite refreshing to hear because the temptation is to want to simplify everything down into like basic terms. So you were saying, oh, she's a millennial and therefore she wants this. He's a Gen Zer, therefore he wants that. People are people. They're not odometers. They, they're not just there to register the, the passage of time. One of the things that makes Michael such a respected leader and dealmaker is that he understands people. And he remembers the exact moment when it dawned on him that not everybody wanted the same thing. Yeah. So this individual was, um, a frontline warehouse worker for us. And we go to him and we say, hey, would you like this opportunity? We'll train you. We'll do all these things for you. You can double your salary. It's an amazing opportunity. We'll pay you to learn. And so we go to him and we pitch him on this. And I'm like, well, yeah, this is an instant yes. And this person said no. And I was like, what? Like, you don't want to do this? And it was at that moment, like I visited with him, And he is like, no, no, I'm just happy just doing what I'm doing. Like, and to me it was like so confusing. I was like, well, why not? Like, well, you know, like this is, you know, my father worked in a warehouse. I'm going to work in a warehouse. I'm happy working in a warehouse. You know, I don't really want to take on the additional challenge. And that was just an opportunity for me to learn as a CEO. And as I started to get this idea around leadership that everybody that you work with is different with different perspectives. And just because I felt immediately ambitious, like, oh yeah, I should totally go do that. And I would've taken that decision in a heartbeat. His psychology was one where he just had different set of values. He was happy just with the status quo. And ultimately, like, he was so sure of it. Like, I couldn't really argue with it. I was really just like, okay, well, sounds good. We'll find somebody else. And ultimately we did.
Leanne ElliottHey, hey, I think understanding people is one of the most difficult but most rewarding skills a manager can learn. I think, you know, if you really want to get into the psychology of people, it takes continual learning. You've got experts like Professor Sakeri Cooper and Dr. Ryan Sherman who have been on the, on the podcast that have dedicated their entire working lives to understanding what makes people want to work, and they likely still don't know all, all the answers. That's because times change, values change, generational perspectives change. There is, however, one hack, and I'll be honest, Al, only the best of the best leaders know this. I probably shouldn't tell you, and I might get in trouble with the elders, but I'm willing to take the risk in the name of developing great managers. Are you ready for it, Al?
Al ElliottYes.
Leanne ElliottIf you want to understand what people want, what motivates them, what makes them tick at the deepest of psychological levels, ask That's been kind of a recurring theme, I think, over the last few episodes, particularly when we talked about employee resource groups.
Al ElliottYou don't have to know everything about a different— the way that someone lives their life, their lifestyle choices. And in fact, you probably won't know everything. So like you said, ask them and you're going to get some amazing results.
Leanne ElliottTalking of managers and leaders, a lot of people think that a great manager is great at the technical work, at doing the work. Michael trained as a software engineer, so Al asked him if he misses building Nope.
Al ElliottI mean, for 2 reasons. I like to play games where I feel like I have an unfair advantage and like, I know enough about coding to realize, you know, I don't have a strong enough memory for details. I don't have the pleasure of digging into details that like other people who are really good at programming, they have that kind of wiring that I just don't have. And to me, it's, it's not inspiring and it's not fun. I am much more inspired by Working on bigger ideas, working on the psychology of people, helping other people be themselves and developing connections with them, that I'm interested in developing and solving a puzzle on a computer screen.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast, that's us, by the way, and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioural science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not going to say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless. Seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. We've just done an episode on fake news. Fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out. Keep that in. And I think what's so refreshing about this, and this isn't the first time I've heard this, is that most high achievers, particularly in like an entrepreneurial setting, they don't end up doing what they studied at university, if they went to university at all. There's an old thing that's saying that if you can spell the word entrepreneur, you're not one. People who do well understand the psychology of people. It's not that they are the world's best coder. In fact, if you are the world's best coder, there's a chance you're not gonna be a great manager. What's cool is that most successful people have learned on the job. Most successful leaders have learned on the job, which is great news for kids who don't like school. Look, here's what I've told my children. Um, there are things that you don't need to know in this planet. I remember growing up and they would, uh, when calculators first came out and like handwritten arithmetic wasn't important anymore, uh, or as important as it used to be and that sort of thing, or spreadsheets came around or algebra and all that kind of stuff. Like it started to where computers can do more and more stuff for you. But what I've told them, and I think this is becoming more and more important even as technology grows, is that you at school are not learning algebra. You're not learning biology. You're not learning chemistry. Like, you're learning how to do 2 things. One is you're learning how to learn, and 2, you're learning how to think critically. And that process of learning how to learn, in my opinion, like, is getting even more important year after year because technology keeps pushing forward. All these things that we're learning and using today, YouTube, Twitter, AI, ChatGPT, electric vehicles, like cryptocurrency. Like none of that stuff even existed or was even a theory when I was growing up and going to college. Like the computer programming languages they're using now are totally different. They didn't even exist. They hadn't even thought of back then. Mobile phones, all that stuff is brand new. So all that stuff is accelerating. The process of technology evolving is accelerating. And to me, learning how to learn is even more important because you have to be able to get good at things very quickly these days. And so that's what I tell my kids. So far they seem to be believing it, either that or it's us punishing them when they don't get good grades. But like, that's not, you know, that's what's happening here. You're learning how to learn. You're not learning how to memorize a particular thing, which I think is a good thing. Like we don't need the Chinese educational system where you're memorizing a bunch of stuff. Ideally the educational system and people's parents would do their job. You know, I think if they don't do that, I think you have a situation where the ceiling for somebody in their future careers is very limited. You know, I think your job as a leader and an employer, at least in the US, is to help people become the best versions of themselves. But your job is not to create them, right? We didn't— you as an employer are not adopting them. You're not their parent. Um, so hopefully they've come in with those things, you know, being already prepared because that's, in my, my opinion, a parent and a school system's job. But I think as a leader, your job is to help them. grow those things as best you can, but you can't, it's just too much to ask a leader to try to create those things, you know, in a job situation, in my opinion. We need people who can think critically. We need people who can learn quickly, uh, 'cause that's what the world's demanding and it's, it's gonna continue going that way.
Leanne ElliottIf Michael currently employs over 1,000 people, then I suspect he's recruited at least 5 times that over the years. We wanted to know if he had any tips for finding and retaining great people.
Al ElliottSo much good stuff out there. You know, I think I'll give you something very specific. Uh, And it was just this idea that when you want to build anything great, the key to that is to go and recruit people who are better than you. I think it's a real danger for a lot of people that you try to find somebody that's not going to be a threat to you as a manager. And I think that's a very poor thing to do as a leader. An old mentor of mine told me, he's like, look, you should go hire people better than you for a number of reasons. One of which, like, they're more fun to work with. But number 2, someday you're going to want to be promoted out of this job, and it's much easier for your bosses to promote you if they know there's somebody willing to step in and do your job at some point. So yeah, I would say specifically, as I think back on to younger me in my 20s, I had a mentor tell me that, hire people better than me. And it's proven to pay off throughout the rest of my life. Sometimes there is a resistance to employing great people, which sounds counterintuitive, but a manager might Worry that they're gonna be better than they are.
Leanne ElliottWell, ideally they, they should be.
Al ElliottThat's a really good point because I remember back to when I had my web agency and a guy came to me for as an intern job and I looked at his CV and I was like, oh my God, this guy is a genius. We used to do Google Ads, so pay-per-click, we used to do that. I looked at it, I was thinking, he's not done pay-per-click, he's not done Google Ads, but I reckon he'll be much better than me. And I honestly, because I was a bit younger then, maybe in my like sort mid to late 20s, I was a bit like, oh, do I really want to employ Richard? Do I? Because he's going to make me look stupid. I know he is. Turned out he did make me look stupid because he was an absolute natural at it. And then went— and now I think he's running one of the largest pay-per-click companies, uh, organisations in the UK, quite rightly so, because he was brilliant. And I learned that day that I shouldn't be using my ego as part of the recruitment process. Michael totally agrees, and he says that you should definitely recruit the best you can. However, it's not plain sailing. You're gonna be, have to be prepared to put the hours in. Yeah, I think people get confused with hiring somebody that is, you know, going to be difficult, right? Which is one of the things that happens when you hire high-performing people is they need sometimes different and more care and feeding. Um, not to say that I was like a high-performing young person, but that's what my like reviews said when I had a job. And like, look, I was kind of needy in terms of stuff. I was producing a lot of things and that created more work for my manager. And fortunately I had a situation where that gentleman, like he was just terrific to me because he was like grandfathered age. So nothing was going to threaten him in terms of his career because he was ready to retire in the next 5 years or so anyway. But I think a lot of people look at these high-performing people and they think, oh, they're going to show up and they're going to be demanding of me. They're going to create a lot of work for me. They're going to be dramatic. They're going to make my job harder. I'm going to have to replace them because they're going to want to move on to something better. And if you're a lazy manager, sometimes it's just easier to take the easy path out. And that's kind of like life that way. Like, a lot of people just like take the easy path out. I, I try not to.
Leanne ElliottLet's not sugarcoat this. Being a great manager is really, really hard. Being a lazy manager is pretty easy. And you can probably tell, being honest, which one you are by just reflecting on that. How hard is your job right now as a manager? But, you know, as employees, we guess the thing is we do learn a lot from both. We learn as much from the bad managers as we do from the good. And the other interesting thing about high performers is, you know, if you are wanting to recruit a high performer, a superstar, into your organization, during that recruitment process, try to identify one thing. Try and identify if they are coachable. If a superstar is coachable, they won't make your job harder. If they're not, then progress with extreme, extreme caution. As a psychologist, I wanted Al to dig deeper into why Michael thought he's made the choices in life that he has.
Al ElliottThere is some stuff that happened in my childhood that explained why I'm super, uh, super in touch with all the little nuances and all the, the psychology of people. Um, so I mean, it's not really a secret, like I had a pretty crappy high school experience, uh, here. We moved when I was 12 and I moved from, I thought, I think a pretty, you know, standard American set up in terms of schooling and social environment to one that was at the time, and I think still to some extent is, you know, a very high-pressure, you know, schooling area. And I didn't fit in super well. And to eventually get to a point where I figured out how to navigate that, being a bit of an odd person, I mean, that's just the other thing I've gotten totally comfortable with. Like, I'm an odd person. I'm comfortable in my skin now. But back then I had to start to learn how to read the tea leaves and start to get psychological about understanding What people's motivations were. And growing up here in Texas also is a place where people are the opposite of being very direct. Not as much as the Brits like to not be direct, but like we're kind of in the same vein. And it took a lot of me developing those skills over time. And then I think I just like, they were survival skills at the beginning, and today I just find it fascinating. Like I just love trying to understand somebody's motivations, trying to understand what they're trying to do. Like it's a puzzle to be figured out for me, and people are just fascinating, complex puzzles. Uh, to go around. So yeah, that's my answer for it. Like, yeah, it all ties back to childhood, which is true. Uh, but today, like, yeah, I just— it's so fascinating to me. I love trying to figure out what people are thinking and why they're thinking it. If you listen to the full interview, you could— you'll hear me actually totally empathising with this because I was a fucking really weird kid. Well, I went— I remember going to a grammar school for my sixth form, which, if you're from the US, those words might just totally confuse you. I don't know what I don't know what a prep school is. At 16, I went to a normal school, and then at 16, I went to my last 2 years study, uh, before university at a— what was called a grammar school. I went probably 3, 4 days sometimes without talking to any single person from the moment I left the house to the moment I got back to the house. I was like Michael. I did not fit in. But this made me a better adult, I think, because I was— I had something to prove. I remember when I was a pub manager and I used to sit back and go, right, okay, we're gonna do £80,000 this week. This is like 28, 20, 30 years ago. £80,000 this week. And I have been the one who's put this together. Look at all these people having a great time. I put it together. That kind of like that ego wouldn't have been there if I'd had an ego as a child. So I wanted to know, should we allow our children to face adversity? Will adversity actually make them a better adult? I think my wife and I strongly believe that If you live a childhood without struggle, without setbacks, without conflict, you're just delaying going through and dealing with those things until you're an adult. And you see these people that unfortunately, like they grew up without constraints, they grew up without any setbacks, their parents protected them. And to me, like they turn out to be not very fulfilled adults. Like they don't have direction and mom and dad are still in their Helicoptering on them. So, you know, my wife and I very much agree that our objective as parents is to create amazing, well-adjusted adults ready to go out and do whatever they want in the world and not to create the absolute best childhood for a child. I think that's a huge mistake. I see it on Twitter all the time. People are like, my child is going to have the best childhood ever. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, your job is to create an amazing adult as a parent, not to provide the most like glamorous, beautiful, pain-free childhood possible. So whenever I see now, like my child going through struggles, like my job is to coach them and help them and figure out how to deal with these things now rather than trying to do that when they're 25, because now is the time when they can go through those struggles. And it's, if it was like me being in a position where I didn't get along well with people in high school and I still am kind of motivated by that, you know, like for full transparency, or if it's other things going on, failing a class or any of that kind of stuff. Um, do I feel empathy for my kid? Absolutely. Do I know it's necessary for them to go through that to be amazing, well-adjusted, successful adults? Absolutely. So it's both, to answer your question specifically.
Leanne ElliottWe couldn't have someone like Michael on the podcast without asking him about the future of work. He's an experienced leader and business owner. He's bought companies, sold companies, built companies, and now is an investor in companies. He's seen a huge shift from the workplace banter in the '90s to now people being afraid perhaps to say anything for fear of upsetting someone. Al asked him where he thought the balance was.
Al ElliottWell, I think, I think America is, is fundamentally a place that I, I kind of think about it as, um, a feedback desert. That's, that's a phrase I've been trying to use, but it's just this idea that like If you go to a real, if you go to a party or you go to a workplace here in the US, like everybody is so terrified of insulting the other person that they never really talk about anything that's real. And this was something that really only, you know, my eyes opened up to it visiting other countries, going to France or Spain or Mexico and seeing the way people talk there and being much less worried about offending the other person. You know, that opened my eyes to it here in the US. And I think Look, I think there's an upside to us trying to be kind all the time. Like, that's one of the things I love about certain countries. Like, I love kindness and visible kindness to other people. So I love that aspect of America. But the downside of it is like we've become so intentionally kind and so worried about being unkind that we never take the next step to often tell people what we truly think or what the true situation is. And I have, for example, like one of my friends who is a CEO of a company right now, she has a leadership challenge because her people are all terrified to tell her the truth about stuff. And they only gather their courage and tell her later, you know, after they can't clean up a mess and they have to absolutely tell her. And I think all of that ends up costing us, you know, it, I think we would do better to try to stay kind, but like if you're at We're at this end of the spectrum right now where we're just like so kind that you can't really say anything without fear of like pissing somebody off or offending even somebody for the slightest thing. And I think everybody would be a ton more happier if we just brought it down a couple notches in the United States. Like just stop being so thick-skinned or thin-skinned all the time. I think it would be huge for most people's happiness and workplace efficiency too. And Michael was really balanced about that idea and he was kind of torn because we did back and forth a little bit on that, and he was, he was explaining that we can't go back to how we were where there was essentially bullying, but at the same time we've got to be careful we don't get to the very other end of the spectrum. So quite a balanced answer, I think, there.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think as well, it's, you know, it's if you're, if you're having a conversation with someone related to performance, then maybe some, you know, more direct conversation is, is needed. If you're chatting about what somebody did over the weekend and you're bantering about the fact they did something you find amusing, then I don't, I don't the place for it. Context is everything as well, I think.
Al ElliottAbsolutely, absolutely. And over 30 years of investing in companies, building companies, buying companies, as Leanne said, I had to ask him where does he see the future of this. I mean, you know, regular listeners know that we are both very bullish on AI. We use ChatGPT extensively. Um, it's just recently— there looks like an app store for ChatGPT been released yesterday. That's going to to be really interesting. So I think the future is rosy, but I wanted to see if Michael agreed. Yeah, so I think large language models are really interesting because they're going to do the same parallel as what the spreadsheet did in terms of like work, right? It creates a situation where we're going to take existing employees and we're going to make them a lot more effective. It's also turning into like its own new programming language akin to what people are doing with Microsoft Excel. There's people who are becoming incredibly good At writing these prompts and you're seeing them, they're pages long, and then the LLM produces stuff on the other end. So there's lots of talk about it killing jobs. I think it's not killing existing people's work. It's just making the people that are here much more effective. Now, does that mean that because they're more effective, companies won't need to hire more people in the future? Absolutely. But it's also a situation where I don't think people should be scared that some large language model is going to come in and take their job tomorrow. Because frankly, it's not going to do it any more than the calculator did or the computer did or the spreadsheet did or the mobile phone did. Like these are just going to make the existing humans that we have much more efficient, the company's more efficient. And when all that happens, actually the employees get paid more and they're happier. And so I think it's a net good thing, you know, just like almost every single other technological advance we've done, it makes people's lives better. And so I'm very optimistic about them. I think all the scare tactics are really kind of overblown.
Leanne ElliottAnd of course, we had to ask Michael about the argument, the debate of 2023. Where does Michael stand on remote versus hybrid versus in-office working?
Al ElliottUh, it totally depends upon the company situation and the company you want to build. I think all these people that are telling you that remote work is the only way to go, or hybrid's the only way to go, or in-office is the only way to go, I think number one, it's somewhat a stylistic choice, but then it's also one Where it depends upon what the situation is. If you're doing a small startup and it's a lot of connectivity amongst the people is really important, you need to be in the office together, but it's not the only way. And so I think every time I see the argument, I'm like, yeah, they all have their place. And I think just the best thing about remote work is it has the potential to raise the tide for all boats, right? These opportunities that potentially weren't possible before remote work just makes them possible. And so, uh, I'm very bullish on it. I love remote work, but I also love hybrid work, and I love in-office work, and I do them all, and my companies do them all, just depending upon what's best for the company.
Leanne ElliottSo, I think what Michael's saying there is it depends, which is an answer I very much appreciate. You know, it's also what every— pretty much every single one of our experts has said when they've been asked about remote versus hybrid versus in-office. It really does depend. You know, if we think back to our 4-Day Workweek Sorry, it's even. We had the world expert on the 4-day week work who ran the global pilot, Joe O'Connor, and he was the first to say that, you know, these kinds of things like the 4-day work week will work for some organisations and not for others. And I think that's true of remote versus hybrid versus in-office working. It depends on the kind of work you do. It depends on the amount of collaboration or deep thinking that your work requires. What is for sure is that having your team work the office won't make you a better manager. So leaders, if you are feeling like you are losing control, losing influence, perhaps losing some sense of camaraderie in your culture, maybe focus on improving your competence rather than changing your context. The key thing is to listen and make it easy for your team to communicate their thoughts and choices to you. It really isn't rocket science when we boil it down. Ask people what they want, Within the constraints you have, try and give it to them. Kimberly also mentioned this from First Direct a few weeks ago, that one of the greatest strengths of the bank was to be able to go direct to the CEO with any concerns and any feedback, and the CEO would listen. And that perhaps, Al, is rule 2 of Great Manager Club: be approachable. I love it.
Al ElliottGreat Manager Club. I like that.
Leanne ElliottOh, oh, uh-oh. Oh no, there's a problem when you're married to an entrepreneur. You can't just say shit like that because next week there's going to be a freaking PowerPoint and probably a website up.
Al ElliottI'm just thinking there must be a play on words with a fight club, Fight Club. So I'm, I'm gonna be— me and ChatGPT, we're having a chat about that later on over a small gin and tonic. If you're not following Michael on Twitter, just search for @Girdley. You can see how long he's been on Twitter because of his handle. He's got like a 6-letter handle. You can go and find him there, @Girdley. You can go to— you can go to girdley.com. Also, I believe he's got a new YouTube channel called Girdley World. I'll put a link in the show notes to that. He also has a newsletter which you definitely subscribe to. And if you're interested in joining a group of like-minded peers who are turning over somewhere between half a million and $5 million, Michael's created something that might just tickle your pickle. Scale Path is a business that we incubated this year. It's a CEO peer group, uh, that we're super proud of for companies, uh, anywhere in the US or beyond that wanna scale past $5 million in revenue. It's for folks that aren't ready for Vistage and YPO or EO or any of the in-person networks. Uh, it's a great virtual opportunity for them. So, uh, we're building out a really special thing. We're over 100 members and would love for anybody that's a small business person that wants to scale to give it a shot.
Leanne ElliottSo that is it for this week on the podcast. A huge thank you to Michael Girdley for sharing his insights, experiences, and phenomenal work. Um, a pretty nice addition to our Founder series, I think, there, Al.
Al ElliottYeah, definitely. And I'll be contacting other people on Twitter to ask them if they'll be on the show. So if you're kind of a big cheese on Twitter, look out, I'm gonna be sliding into your DMs, as the Gen Z say.
Leanne ElliottIf you are a Brie or a Camembert, expect Al to get in touch very, very soon. Next week, next week's exciting actually. I'm excited about next week, Al. Who've we got on?
Al ElliottYes, next week is a sport special, sports and leadership edition.
Leanne ElliottWe have some very cool people on next week. I'm not gonna say— I'm gonna do a little teaser here. So we have a former Premier League footballer. Can I get an ooh and ahh, please?
Al ElliottOoh.
Leanne ElliottWe have a current England rugby player.
Al ElliottOh.
Leanne ElliottOoh. And we also have a world record-breaking yacht sailor, uh, from the UK. It's, it's quite the lineup.
Al ElliottIt really is. So if you're not subscribed, pull out your phone now. Click subscribe and also just let us know, give us some feedback. We're on, you know, you know by now we're on LinkedIn. Search for Truth, Lies and Work. You'll see one of us popping up and talking and just tell us what you think about the, about the episode. If you've not left a review, do it. Go and give us 5 stars and tell us how amazing we are, please. Because we're that needy.
Leanne ElliottWe really are. You are.
Al ElliottBye for now.
Leanne ElliottBye. I like my pickle tickled.
Al ElliottThat's going in the outtakes. You're quite good with the left-hand trackpad, aren't you?
Leanne ElliottI have a hand and I can use it to track.
Al ElliottTook me a couple of weeks to train myself to use the left hand.
Leanne ElliottThat says more about you than it does about me.
Al ElliottOh, this is all woke rubbish. But at the same time, he wasn't saying let's go back to how we were in the '90s where you could just take the Mickey out of someone who's only got one leg, you know, it's that kind of— I'm gonna do that again. I don't know where that came from. I don't know what they do.
Leanne ElliottThat's going in the outtakes too.
Al ElliottI don't know what they do.