Episode 34 · 12 April 2023 · 1:36:45
How to Identify and Eliminate Toxic Workplace Cultures
How to Identify and Eliminate Toxic Workplace Cultures
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Word of the week: Corporate villain era
Why sharing articles without reading them makes us feel cleverer
The NHS junior doctor strikes
What is a toxic workplace culture?
Fight or flight: the brain chemistry of toxic environments
Disrespect as the root of toxicity
Great expectations: setting clear communication norms
The 'snowflake' argument, demolished — part 1
The 'people are just sensitive now' argument, demolished — part 2
The 'toxic workplaces are just part of the deal' argument, demolished — part 3
The signs of a toxic workplace
The commercial cost of doing nothing
The 10 recommendations for fixing toxic culture
No. 1: Stay curious, be open to having a problem
Why leaders don't have complete information
No. 2: Understand secrets — including your own
No. 3: Build trust with your people
No. 5: Measure insights, not just outputs
No. 6: Give employees a real voice
No. 7: Make hybrid work actually work
No. 8: Respect people's time
No. 9: Model good leadership behaviours
No. 10: Get clear on how you want to engage
Show notes
How to Identify and Eliminate Toxic Workplace Cultures
Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) are joined by three workplace experts to unpack what toxic culture really is, why "sensitive" is often a smokescreen, and the 10 evidence-backed steps leaders can take to spot and stop toxicity before it destroys their business.
No one sets out to build a toxic workplace. Yet two out of three employees have experienced one — and 44% of them blame leadership.
In this episode, Al and Leanne are joined by Bonnie Low-Kramen (TEDx speaker, workplace advocate and author of Staff Matters), Paula Allen (Global Leader in Research and Client Insights at TELUS Health) and Rita Ernst (positivity influencer, organisational consultant and author of Show Up Positive) to answer the questions that keep leaders up at night: What actually makes a culture toxic? How do you know if it's genuinely toxic — or if people are just being sensitive? And what can you do about it before the good people leave?
From the "corporate villain era" to the NHS junior doctor strikes, the trio also digs into the week's workplace news — including why sharing articles you haven't read makes you feel smarter (it doesn't).
🧠 What We Covered
What is a toxic workplace culture? It's more than just a bad day or a difficult boss. Toxic cultures create a constant fight-or-flight response — the brain chemistry of prolonged, high-level stress with no recovery period. Using the gym analogy: a little stress builds muscle; never letting the muscle recover breaks it down.
Is it toxic — or are people just being sensitive? Al brings three familiar arguments: "people need a thick skin," "mental health is less stigmatised so everyone's claiming it," and "toxic workplaces are just part of the deal." Paula, Bonnie and Rita dismantle each one — including the uncomfortable truth that what looks like "sensitivity" is often a response to genuine disrespect, exclusion and discrimination.
The signs of a toxic workplace High turnover. People quitting suddenly. Stagnant growth. Declining revenue per head. And the quietest sign of all: silence. As Bonnie puts it, a lack of reports does not mean a lack of incidents.
The 10 recommendations From staying curious and understanding organisational secrets, to building trust, respecting feelings, measuring what matters, and giving employees a genuine voice — this is a practical, actionable framework for leaders who want to fix (or prevent) toxicity.
🔗 Resources
Bonnie Low-Kramen
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/bonnielowkramen
- Website: bonnielowkramen.com
- Twitter: twitter.com/BonnieLowKramen
- Book, Staff Matters: amazon.com
Paula Allen
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/paula-allen-2717206
- Website: lifeworks.com
Rita Ernst
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rita-ernst-positivity-influencer
- Website: igniteextraordinary.com
- Instagram: @igniteextraordinary
- Book, Show Up Positive: amazon.com
More from Truth, Lies & Work
- Join the conversation on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/truthlieswork
- Listen back: Psychological Safety
- Listen back: Burnout & Teams: The Pandemic You Didn't See Coming
- Listen back: How (NOT) to be a Psychopath: A Leader's Guide
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hopspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. And have it be about the work. My goodness, in this post-pandemic workplace, the pressure really feels on. The stakes are very high.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottAnd my name is Al and I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo welcome back. Welcome if you're new, but also welcome back to everyone else. We've seen the stats. We know that you're coming back and you know we're listening. We're watching you. Um, and so today we are talking about something cool. We'll come on to that in a second.
Leanne ElliottGot some news.
Al ElliottWe do have some news.
Leanne ElliottWe've got some news.
Al ElliottGo on, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottIf you follow us on LinkedIn, Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture Podcast, uh, you'll already know. If you don't, fool you, because there's people out there that already know. But we are very excited to announce that we are the official podcast at the Water Cooler event happening this month, 25th, 26th of April At the Excel in London.
Al ElliottSo if you're in England or London or any, I suppose, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Isle of Man, and you're coming down to the Water Cooler event, which is like the premiere, it's the, the Oscars for culture, workplace culture in the UK. If you're coming down, then look us up because we'll be somewhere in the middle, no doubt recording interviews with very important people. And I might even have a hoodie on. I don't wear a hoodie normally.
Leanne ElliottWe are. Yeah, we've got, we've got a pop-up studio. We're gonna be recording live from the event. We'll be bringing you exclusive content on all the speakers, exhibitors, the delegates, everything really. So yeah, it's cool. We're excited and we'll see you there. And if you can't be there, it's okay because we're going to be bringing you a whole episode dedicated to everything we got up to at the Water Cooler.
Al ElliottBut in all seriousness, all joking aside, if you are, if you are into workplace culture or into building an amazing place for your people to live, then to live, to work, then you were, you absolutely should be going down to the Water Cooler because it has got some amazing speakers on there. It's got some amazing exhibitors. The person who is running it is a really cool guy who's been on our podcast before. Hello, Simon. Um, and, um, yeah, it's just, it's just, it's just the place you need to be if you care about workplace culture. So I think it's free to get in.
Leanne ElliottIt absolutely is free to get in. So yeah, if you are in or around London or nearby, it's absolutely worth going. There's a whole, whole schedule of talks, of workshops, and a whole exhibition as well, um, all talking about workplace culture. And wellbeing as well. So yeah, not one to miss if you can make it. So this week we are talking about toxic workplace cultures. A few episodes ago, we talked about toxic superstars. We talked about toxic workers. Now we're taking that conversation a bit broader and talking about toxic workplaces.
Al ElliottSo we have 3 incredible guests. We have, first of all, Bonnie Loach-Crowman, who is a TEDx speaker. She's a workplace advocate, bestselling author of Staff Matters. Brilliant book. Real— if you like those kind of books that are full of stories, like for example, Small Giants and anything by Bo Burlingham, Bo Burlingham, Bo Burlingham, then you'll love that book. She's had over 1,500 conversations with assistants, executives, HR professionals, and recruiters from all over the world. And what she does, she tells those stories in her book, and she offers solutions on how executives and teams can work together to create the ultimate workplace. Let's meet Bonnie. Oh my goodness. Well, I began my career in theater. I'm from New Jersey. I graduated from Rutgers University with a degree in theater and English, and had a dream for about 5 minutes of being an actress, but ultimately ended up working in show business, working as the personal assistant to Oscar-winning actress Olympia Dukakis. And I did that for 25 years. In a million years, I never thought it would last for 25 years, but there it is. Olympia, of course, won an Oscar for the film Moonstruck, and then went on to make many other major films like Steel Magnolias, et cetera. In the course of traveling out in 13 countries, the staff of the world, the assistants of the world, the leaders, the recruiters, HR professionals, they were talking to me. They told me their stories. And what was so fascinating is that I started hearing similar stories no matter where I was.
Leanne ElliottOur next guest is Paula Allen. She is a global leader in research and climate insights at TELUS Health, Formerly Lifeworks. She's an expert in total wellbeing strategies for workplaces. She also sits on the board of directors at Women's College Hospital. She's also an advisor on the National Standard for Psychological Health and Safety Workplace to CSA Group. And if you're not sure what CSA Group does, uh, they are on a mission to enhance the lives of Canadians through the advancement of standards in the public and private sectors. Let's hear more about Lifeworks.
Al ElliottAt its core, Lifeworks helps people be at their best. So we do financial wellbeing work. We do mental wellbeing and mental health work. We help employees who are coming back to work after a disability leave. So we work with organizations to help their people be at their best. And very recently, we were acquired by an organization called TELUS Health, which means we're going to continue to do everything that we're doing, but also be available directly to individuals. individual. So somebody who doesn't work for an organization would have access to our support as well. And our final guest is Rita Ernst. Rita is so cool. She's a positivity influencer. She's an organizational consultant. She's got a company called Ignite Your Extraordinary. She's been featured in Forbes and on the COVID of Tappin Magazine. And she's committed to building workplaces where happiness and productivity converge and create positive, committed, high-performing teams. Her approach typically translates to about a 30% increase in sales revenue, which is pretty amazing. She's also the bestselling author of Show Up Positive, which is a great book. So let's go and meet Rita. That is my mission right now. My mission right now is to really make people aware of the book and to get them involved in the Show Up Positive movement, which is really just about using their personal agency and power to take back their workplace and turn it back into the place where they want to go to work because it's giving them the fulfillment that they really need. So in a second, we're gonna go back to our guests and we're gonna hear a bit more from them. But before that, it's our favorite time of the week. It is the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottCue the jingle.
Al ElliottSo if you've not heard this before, this is, this is still in testing phase, maybe in its like 9th week, but we kind of like it. It's where we sit back, we just get a gin and tonic, we sit by the fire, and we just listen to Leanne telling stories of from around the world about workplace culture. So, Leah, what do we normally start with?
Leanne ElliottWord of the week.
Al ElliottWord of the week alert.
Leanne ElliottI'll be honest, I had to dig around a bit this week. I couldn't, I couldn't, I hadn't stumbled across one. I had to go and find one. And I thought, where, where should one go to find out a current wordy, phrasey trend these days?
Al ElliottUrban Dictionary?
Leanne ElliottTikTok.
Al ElliottOh, TikTok, of course.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, I went over to TikTok and I found the new word— what is a phrase really? Corporate villain era. So basically it's building on the attitude of quiet quitting, the kind of the ethos of the Great Resignation, um, and really just talking about being a corporate villain. To be clear, it's not about being an actual villain or sabotaging your company. It's more about showing up for yourself, setting boundaries, knowing your worth and being confident. So basically swapping being polite for a bit of independence and standing up for yourself.
Al ElliottSo can I just ask you then, so this isn't like not describing them as, oh, they are a corporate villain and therefore they're bad. This is a good thing.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So you'll see the TikTok videos are like, this is my corporate villain era. And they'll be like, things like finishing work at 5 o'clock, not working at weekends. All that kind of stuff. They're kind of saying how they're a villain in inverted commas, but, um, but actually, yeah, it's just a case of, of people standing up for themselves and setting some healthy boundaries. So yeah, that is the current TikTok trend, and that is our phrase of the week: comment villain era. Comment— no, what am I saying? Corporate villain era.
Al ElliottSo catchy.
Leanne ElliottI know.
Al ElliottSo what else you got this week, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottWell, I also saw some research this week on week on how to be clevererer.
Al ElliottClevererer, and that you just add an extra -er to make it even more clever.
Leanne ElliottExactly.
Al ElliottYeah, love it.
Leanne ElliottSo no, it's how to be clever. So this was a study, it looked at whether people, um, act as if they are more knowledgeable after sharing articles. Um, so if they—
Al ElliottThis is not their own article, this is someone else's article.
Leanne ElliottYeah. So if you're on, you're on LinkedIn or you're on like Forbes or whatever else, and you'll see it An article that's going to make you look clever. They did some research to find out in terms of once, once a person has shared the article, um, do they start to act as if they are more knowledgeable? So there's lots of different, different kind of, um, experiments that were done, but in one of them, participants were asked to read an article on investing, and they had a group that, that were kind of in the sharing group, and they were instructed to share it on their Facebook page. And then the people in the non-sharing condition, um, just, just read the article. And then all the participants were given investment advice by an AI advisor and took part in an investment planning simulation in which they chose the level of risk for their investment before responding to a self-report questionnaire. And what the results found was quite interesting, actually, that those people in the sharing condition took significantly more risk in the investment planning exercise than those in the non-sharing condition, suggesting that even just sharing articles, whether you read it or not, can change our behavior as well as our feelings about things.
Al ElliottSo I can totally see why someone would feel that. I also have a sneaking suspicion that the people who share those articles are probably the left-hand side of the median of clever. In the first place. Sorry if you're listening to this and going, I've just shared an article this morning and you bastard, Al.
Leanne ElliottWell, I was— this might disrupt what my next suggestion was going to be, but let's see. So I was going to say that, you know, if sharing content makes us feel like we know more about the topic, then why not share this episode? And you'll look like you know loads of stuff about toxic workplaces. But given what Al's just said, it might— it It— you probably don't want to now.
Al ElliottI immediately regret my decision to talk before, before reading on in the notes of the podcast.
Leanne ElliottBut there you go. So yeah, there you go. Sharing without reading makes us believe we're more knowledgeable than we are.
Al ElliottSo borrow some of Leanne's amazing knowledge, not mine. I don't have anything of worth to say. So what else you got, Leah?
Leanne ElliottSo finally, um, I want to talk about the NHS junior doctor strike. That are happening this week. Um, so for anyone not in the UK, uh, junior doctors across England have begun a 4-day strike, and that's going to result in an estimated 350,000 appointments being cancelled. Um, so yeah, it's basically overpay. Um, I saw, I saw basically that once you kind of break it down into an hourly rate, junior doctors are paid about £14 an hour, um, which It doesn't seem quite right. Junior doctors, what would we call them? I guess in the, in the US you might call them residents.
Al ElliottWas that what it is?
Leanne ElliottSo people that finished their initial training and their internship, and now they're kind of training in residence. It's, it's the longest industrial action in the health service, um, for a while. So, um, so yeah, and the reason I wanted to bring it up is that yes, pay is something that— the main thing that they're striking over, but also conditions that they're working in and the workplaces there, um, and workplace cultures that they're Sadly, there was a very high-profile story recently about Dr. Vaishnavi Kumar, who did take her own life having worked in Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham. Her father has talked at length about this and cites the workplace culture she was in. She found belittling, demeaning, and described it as a toxic environment. This is obviously a very extreme example of what can happen in terms of employee mental health. Um, but I think if we, if we think about the worst-case scenario, it really puts into context how important workplace culture is and how vital it is to eradicate any pockets of toxicity.
Al ElliottDefinitely. I mean, very sad. And unfortunately, I don't think it's the first time I've heard about this kind of thing. So, um, I mean, that's the thing. If you're going to spend like a normal— I say normal, but someone who's not a resident will spend like 30 to 40 hours a week in, in, in a workplace. And if that's toxic, that's not great. But from my understanding with junior doctors in, in, certainly in the UK, they're like more like 80 to 90 hours a week in the hospital. Plus they sleep between shifts, so they might even be in there for like 120 hours of the week. So it's not, it's not cool, is it?
Leanne ElliottIt's not great now. And I think we, we saw it as well after the pandemic. Lots of professionals in the healthcare care sector experiencing burnout. Um, and yeah, and some of that will be down to the environment that they are in. So that is what we are talking about today. What is a toxic workplace culture? It's a term that's thrown around a lot, so we're going to dig into what it actually means. We're going to talk about the attitudes and behaviours that create a toxic environment and what behaviours specifically could be considered bullying or harassment or discrimination. We're also then going to talk about some real talk. How do we know if a culture really is toxic or if people are being maybe a little bit sensitive, what is allowed and what isn't.
Al ElliottI love that you've included this because I think there's, there's, there's 2 kinda schools. Well, there's 3 schools of thought. Those who think that every workplace should be this amazing ambrosia of, like, just an amazing place to work. Then there's those people at the other end of the spectrum and go, oh, just fucking grow up, will you? Work is tough. And then there's the people in the middle who I think is probably most of us who go, are they just being a bit snowflakey? I don't know. So, oh, you're looking at me as if I shouldn't use that word. I was, I was being—
Leanne ElliottI thought we decided that snowflake was no longer allowed.
Al ElliottAnd I was being a character. I was playing a character.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al ElliottI see.
Leanne ElliottAnd seen. Yeah. No, we are. We're gonna, we're gonna dig into, dig into that and, and the main, the main arguments around why people might be sensitive, and we'll get our, our expert guest's view on that. We'll then be Talking about the signs of a toxic culture, and most importantly, in a nice chunky part at the end of this episode, is what leaders can do to not only prevent toxic workplace cultures but to fix them.
Al ElliottLove it. So can we start off with assuming nothing? Can we just say, what is a toxic workplace culture? I'm guessing it's not a lab that's gone wrong.
Leanne ElliottNo, no, it's not.
Al ElliottDad joke, dad joke.
Leanne ElliottUm, so a toxic work Toxic workplace culture is used to describe, um, a place of work, usually in an office environment, but as we've heard, it can also happen in healthcare settings as well. And it's marked by significant conflicts, usually between the people who work there, whether that be, um, infighting, whether it be tension between leaders and employees, and it can significantly harm productivity and, as we've seen, mental health as well. There's actually, there's a lot of research on this that talks about toxic workplace cultures, but we don't have kind of an agreed definition. But what is agreed is that it's reasonable to conclude that an organisation that is considered toxic is gonna be ineffective as well as destructive to its employees.
Al ElliottSo our guest Rita Ernst worked extensively with organisations, and she's, her main aim was to address this toxicity in the workplace. So, we had to ask her, how do you define a toxic workplace culture? And what impact does that have on employees? First of all, because of everything that we've gone through since the pandemic, it is not surprising that workplaces have become toxic workplaces. And oh, by the way, nobody sets out to create a toxic workplace. So, it often leaves founders and executives at the top of the organization scratching their heads saying, how did things get so bad, right? So a toxic workplace is someplace where basically people walk away at the end of the day completely depleted by the experiences that they have had throughout the day. So I think that there are certainly many jobs that people— I worked with a construction company, for example, during the pandemic, and they're featured in my book. And of course, those guys are physically tired at the end of the day. However, there was a strength of camaraderie and companionship and all for one, one for all kind of spirit that had always been a part of their team until the pandemic. And in the pandemic, as all of the chaos and concern and uncertainty and everything else just washed over them, they became more disconnected from one another, right? So they lost that feeling of camaraderie, and they were just sort of showing up and getting their work done and a little bit of heads down, but not really enjoying anymore that sense of shared purpose and Commitment. And so that's— it's the mental aspect of that. The other side of it, you said, what's the opposite of a toxic? It's a place that fills your cup. It's a place that helps— at the end of the day, you feel good about what you've done. You feel purpose in your work. You look forward to going to work. No matter how physically tired you might be, maybe you didn't get a good night's sleep, maybe the baby kept you up all night, whatever it might be, still when you show up in that space with your teammates, there's something that triggers in you.
Leanne ElliottA toxic work environment leads to this, this constant fight or flight response. And, and the brain chemistry of that is, I'm sure you know, it means large amounts of cortisol, which is our stress hormone, and that turns into stress. And when we're stressed, we're defensive. We withdraw socially, um, it impacts our relationships, and over time it will substantially affect our mental and physical health. But of course, Al, we're not talking about these, as you said, these perfect workplace environments. Even the healthiest of work environments are not stress-free. So, as leaders, how can we tell the difference between normal and productive levels of stress and signs of toxic workplace? We asked our expert guest, Paula.
Al ElliottThe analogy for a gym is really good, right? So when you put stress on a muscle, but you put it on in a way that doesn't break the muscle, then it actually does get stronger. When you put stress on a mind, on the mind, and you have things that actually are supportive, like you have good social support, you have skills to sort of look at the situation in a way that doesn't make you feel vulnerable, that makes you feel empowered because you say, well, so X is not going well, but I'll figure out a way to, uh, go in a different way. But, you know, all of those things, like when you have, um, the environment and the approach that helps you manage the stress, you can get stronger.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottSo take, taking that analogy of the gym, if someone goes to the gym 2 or 3 times a week for half an hour, then yes, they're going to get stronger. They're gonna get fitter. But if they're doing like 3, unless you're The Rock, if you're doing like 3 hours a day, 5 days a week in the gym, you're just putting so much stress and pressure on your body. Something is gonna pop. Oh, that sounded horrible then. Like, like a knee or something or a, or a boob muscle.
Leanne ElliottBoob muscle.
Al ElliottI don't know what they're called. Pecs. That's the word, pecs. That's what I was thinking of.
Leanne ElliottYes. And I think, I think that's the point, isn't it? That it's, it's some stress is good. Prolonged high-level stress is bad, which you'll remember from our, our burnout episodes. And again, Paul then just really emphasising the importance of, of relationships. So I think if we're talking about toxic workplaces, this breakdown in relationships is really going to start to, to have the impact. So now we've defined it, what attitudes and behaviours could create a toxic environment? Well, Donald Sowell and colleagues analysed 1.4 million Glassdoor reviews. That's Quite a lot. They had some time on their hands, and they found that employees described toxic workplaces in five ways: as being disrespectful, non-inclusive, unethical, cutthroat, or abusive. And the authors coined this the Toxic Five to describe what poisons company culture. It could be argued that these five aspects could be put under a bigger umbrella of workplace bullying, which I think is a term you're probably a lot. More familiar with. And I'd gamble that most leaders and business owners that are listening would very strongly deny the existence of bullying in, in their workplaces. But, you know, sadly, the data shows us that 1 in 4 of us have experienced bullying or been made to feel left out in the workplace. Our guest Bonnie believes that respect is the number one most important workplace value, and that no meaningful exploration of the workplace Well, bullying is a form of disrespect.
Al ElliottDisrespect is a pretty broad term. But my premise in— that comes from my own personal experience, my experience speaking with staff all over the world, and my research. And I did a TEDx talk on— I called it The Real Reasons People Quit. Oh, that's a great title. And the thing that staff wants more than anything is to feel respected and that we belong. That after all, every person who's working at a company was hired. At some point, somebody looked at the resume and said, we want you. You're chosen. You're the chosen one. So it doesn't make sense then That the person we spend money and time hiring, that we permit behaviors like bullying to that same person who we hired to do tasks in a company. Bullying is a broad topic as well. It can— it's many behaviors including yelling, using profanity, leading somebody on.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottostracizing them, like, oh, we're not going to invite them to lunch because we don't like them. Leading by intimidation, humiliation, being in a meeting and calling someone stupid or the assistant who told the story. And I say it in— I have a lot of stories in the book and I feel like it's a great way to illustrate what I'm talking about. She described how her executive came up behind her and took her by the head and went like this and said, did you leave your brain at home today? Now, that happened in a matter of, what, 5 seconds? The trauma of it lasts for years, and it lasts forever. You know, the bullying behaviors where we treat people Disrespectfully. We call them names. We sabotage their work. We intentionally don't give someone the information they need because we're trying to sabotage them. It's even disrespectful to not open the door for someone who's obviously struggling. That's even disrespectful. So, you know, there's rude, there's disrespectful. Where the line gets crossed into bullying, Al, is the repetition. It's the frequency. Because everybody has a bad day. Bullying is a huge problem when it's repeated, when it's continuous, and there's no apology. Or sometimes there is an apology, but then it happens again and again and again. And I think what Bonnie says there is— makes a really, really good point because we can all be a little bit dismissive once in a while. Someone comes up with a great idea. I'm sure I've done it to Leanne. Leanne's done it to me. You come up with a great idea and you go, oh, well, we're working on this, aren't we? So we'll look at that tomorrow. That's just dismissive and can be, and is disrespectful. However, if that happens every time you go and see someone or it continually happens, that's when it becomes a problem, I think. And I think what Bonnie's saying there is that don't beat yourself up if you've done it once. It's good that you've noticed that you've done it once, but when it happens over and over again, you're probably not even noticing it.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I agree. I think that is the main, the main distinction there, isn't it? And I think it also demonstrates how quickly these disrespectful behaviors, even if If somewhat unconsciously can start to tip into, into bullying, which then creates these toxic workplace cultures that business leaders don't even know how they got there, because it is this progression. It can, it can start subtly. So let's dive a bit more into, into the behaviours that can be considered bullying or harassment or discrimination.
Al ElliottFor example, if you're ghosting someone, you just don't want to see them anymore, or you're deliberately doing a slow response or being late. Is another disrespectful. Blaming others. That's one of my pet, pet hates, is the people who blame others for things that go wrong often take the credit themselves for things that go right. And that gets on my tits. I will not lie to you. So gossiping, skipping over feelings, unfair policies. And then there's just the, just the never mind workplace, just general life disrespect. Not saying please or thank you. Do you know what? I hate that when you go into a coffee shop and someone goes, I'll have a, I'll have a tall— let's see, I haven't been to a coffee shop in the UK for a long time, but a tall white mocha locker with a side of ginge. And, and they don't even say thank you, and they just get back to their phone. I'm like, oi, I wanna go and slap that phone out their hands and go, give this person— this person is a person behind you. They're gonna make your coffee, and if you're not careful, they're gonna spit in it. Anyway, so the question is, are people being oversensitive, or do we all experience disrespect slightly differently? Bonnie seems to think the latter. The basis for all relationships, in my view, needs to be professionalism and respect. That if we're working together, Al, that the very basic things you and— we don't have to be friends, you and I need to treat each other as professionals, and we need to treat each other with respect. And if, you know, and then if we were work together, I would be saying things to you like, Al, I really want to work very well with you. If there's ever something that I do inadvertently that either offends you or you believe I could be doing better, I'd really love your commitment that you would tell me. And may I do the same with you?
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottYou know, I have another chapter called Great Expectations. I I believe when people start working with each other, and whether it's in person or virtually and remotely, that we could do much better setting expectations with each other. Seems to me that we need new rules for engagement, for working with each other, because it's not normal for us to be communicating over a webcam. It really isn't. We're meant as humans to be in rooms together. So how is it that you and I are going to forge a positive, productive working relationship unless I say to you, Al, tell me what really excites you about this work, and I'm going to tell you the same. And like, let's, let's come up with a plan about how we can each use our, our strengths to the benefit of the project.
Leanne ElliottYeah, it absolutely reminds me of that research that Dr. Claire Ashley shared with us on the women's health episode. That actually it's not even about being great friends in work, it's being civil. And actually how just this civil behaviour, this professional behaviour, is one of the most positive things we can do in terms of building relationships and supporting our own wellbeing. And I also think that there might be business leaders thinking, particularly of smaller businesses, that this sounds a bit over-formal to talk about expectations and what I need from people. But that's exactly what Al and I do, as kind of a family business of 2, where these lines can be blurred in terms of what we need from each other is actually setting that out and having that, that, that conversation. And sometimes overcommunication in that way can be kind of the safeguards you need to make sure that these behaviors that are unknowingly perhaps disrespectful continue to happen and could ultimately, as we've understood, turn into bullying.
Al ElliottYeah. And I think if we're not careful, like we've got things like Leanne often puts together these episodes, which takes her about 4 to 6 hours to put these opposite episodes together. And so what, what she'll do is highlight certain clips from certain interviews. And so I remember distinctly about 4 weeks ago, we were maybe 3 quarters through an interview and I got really grumpy because I, in my head, I'm thinking, I'm gonna have to edit this and I have to cut a lot of this stuff down. And so I got really grumpy. I was like, why did you use so much of this particular person? I won't name that person. Why do you use so much of this particular person? And Leanne quite rightly went, Well, what the hell are you talking about, Al? I've spent 4 to 6 hours putting this thing together. It's only when she explained that to me, I was like, oh, I— now I get it. That was disrespectful. I haven't repeated it, I hope. But if I had, then yes, there might be some kind of grievance, and I might have to go to our joint HR.
Leanne ElliottBut I think that even in the closest relationships, having this clarity in communication expectations is hugely beneficial. So it makes all the sense to me that we'd adopt those same rules and, and boundaries with people that we're not as familiar with. Yeah.
Al ElliottNow, this is, this is the big question I had. Again, coming from Gen X, so I'm a little bit older. I'm also male. And so therefore, I'm used to with my friends banter, which usually is awful stuff over WhatsApp where I'll tell them horrible things. But that's just banter. So I, I was like asking Bonnie, where does this banter come into all this? If you're in a very male-led environment, if you ever watch something like On the Tools on, on YouTube, a YouTube channel. You'll just see that basically tradesmen— I say tradesmen because I do mean all of these videos, all exclusive of men— but tradesmen will play jokes on each other. They will throw things at each other. They'll, they'll intentionally hurt each other because that's the banter. I was like, so where is there a place for that? Does that fit in at all in the modern workplace? Let's ask Bonnie. I think we can. There's In my book, I quote another book called Modern Manhood. And, you know, I've had— and Chloe, the woman who wrote that book, and she and I had similar experiences where some men will say to us, well, you know what? Things have gotten so bad with MeToo and Time's Up that we can't even joke around anymore. And the thing is, we can joke around. But it's about the touching. And, you know, we need to keep our hands to ourselves in the workplace. And we need to err on the side of being respectful. Everybody wants to laugh. Everyone wants to have a good time. I think the operative question is to ask, you know, what are we finding offensive? What's the culture like at this company? You know, there have been job descriptions.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottthat have said things, bullet points that say, must have a thick skin to work here, must enjoy a male environment, cannot be offended at profanity. And so, some companies set the standards for the culture right out there. And then, if people want to come on board and be in that environment, You know, at least they know upfront. Other companies that want to set a culture of respect and have it be about the work. My goodness, in this post-pandemic workplace, the pressure really feels on and the stakes are very high as we are trying to create something new. And it— I think we will do well To choose to err on the side of respecting people and asking them how they're doing and asking them how they're feeling. High emotional intelligence is a real plus in this post-pandemic workplace. I you know I I want us to be able to laugh with each other, but not at other people's expense. You know we don't have to make fun of someone. In order to laugh together. And it's useful if leaders can laugh at themselves and be vulnerable in that way, as opposed to, you know, making someone more junior the brunt of a joke, especially women. It's tricky.
Leanne ElliottWe've talked about gender stereotypes before, and there is a danger here that we're attributing all this disrespectful or bullying behavior to men in the workplace. And that's not just unfair, it's not true. Women bully too.
Al ElliottAbsolutely. Women do bully other women, and it has a lot to do with how young girls— how we're socialized when we're young. And young girls are trained in general to be competitive with each other and adversarial and to view each other as competitors and, and in vying for the attention of men. That's the message that many young girls get. And we carry those messages straight up into high school and college and adulthood unless something or someone comes along to break the pattern of that very strongly ingrained messaging. that we get when we're young. And frankly, when I get in front of rooms of women, I tell them straight out, the only people who benefit from women competing with each other and demeaning one another and diminishing each other are men because men have been trained differently, typically and in general, to support each other and to help promote one another. And to, you know, they're on sports teams and the military, and we've got your back. And frankly, I believe women need to do more of that. We need to have each other's back. We need to elevate each other and break the patterns from childhood. And then, you know, we We've heard terms like catty and gossipy and bossy. Bossy is the only word usually referred to as to women, not men.
Leanne ElliottWe—
Al Elliottmy hope is that in Staff Matters to raise awareness about those dynamics in the bullying chapter and also in the chapter called Sex, which is about gender and dynamics in the workplace.
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Al ElliottThat we can get onto it. And I can tell you, Al, that when women get onto it, when we see what's really happening between women, we decide, you know, we need to do it better. Just like you and I would work with each other if I was here with another— with Leanne or another woman, it would be the same thing. Like, let's— rather than judge each other, let us pool our strengths and decide how can we both succeed. Okay. So I wanna play what Leanne and I call Devil's Avocado here.
Leanne ElliottSuch losers.
Al ElliottWe really are. We need to go out and see some more people, I think. Not see other people. I meant, like, go meet other people. So here's a question, and I hear this quite a lot. Oh, the Gen Zs are snowflakes. Before you come at me, Leanne, this is just someone else in the studio, probably in their 70s. So the idea is that, oh, the younger generation, they're snowflakes. They just can't deal with this sort of what the workplace is really like? I asked Paula this. Try to— okay, let's see.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottI'll try to convince me that somebody would want to have mental health issues. Okay. Try to convince me that, you know, that this is something that people would, would, if they're, if they're not actually struggling, would, would somehow, you know, want to present themselves as, as, as struggling. Like, we don't have a society that rewards You know, people being vulnerable in any way. So somebody is struggling, they're struggling. If you see some challenges, that is real. So to diminish that isn't logical. It just isn't logical. And at the end of the day, you know, organizations— and we actually have found this in our mental health index— organizations who support the mental health and well-being of their people, managers who support the mental health and well-being of their people, it's not just the well-being of people that improves. Their productivity improves as well. Their ability to collaborate with others improves as well. Their discretionary effort, that little bit extra that they bring to the workplace, improves as well. And we've also found that that sense of belonging that I mentioned before, It's also the antidote to, you know, people wanting to leave. You know, the Great Resignation was driven a lot by people just not feeling that sense of belonging for various reasons, which increased over the pandemic. So there's, again, good business reasons. You know, we can't ignore what we're seeing. You know, we do have a society that has a lot of challenges for many reasons. And, you know, just to fluff it off as a passing phase, Yeah. It, it, it's completely— you would have a hard time making a logical argument that that makes sense.
Leanne ElliottNice commercial-shaped anti-snowflake argument there, Paula. Thank you. Al, what else you got?
Al ElliottUm, so this sensitive argument number 2, what about the argument that because mental health now has less stigma, people are claiming to experience it more? Kind of like this monkey see, monkey do type of thing. I think that's about time. I like the fact that people are just sort of accepting that our mental health and our mental well-being is really just part of being a human being and that everybody has vulnerability. There isn't a single human being in this world that doesn't have a point of vulnerability. So all of that is great, but I'm very clear that that is not the only thing that is causing the increase in and mental health issues that we're seeing right now. And one way to think about it is that we've seen an increase in hospitalizations. You know, it was particularly amongst younger individuals, you know, people who are having major, major episodes. These are not things that are mitigated, you know, by the lack of stigma. So, you know, it's not as if that when we had stigma before, we wouldn't— we We wouldn't have people going to the hospital because they're not able to cope. Like, these are things that are an indication that we are under more strain right now. Our society is moving faster than it ever has right now. Some of the social supports that have helped us in terms of managing stress and strain have fallen by the wayside. We are more isolated. And this trend started well before COVID Yeah. the pandemic started. And there are even some physical changes that have been happening that are actually creating some vulnerability. So great that we have less stigma. Great that people are talking about it more. But do not think that having, you know, the increase in knowledge of how many people are struggling is because there is less stigma.
Leanne ElliottThere's more.
Al ElliottMore to it than that.
Leanne ElliottAnother mic drop there, I think. I mean, yeah, people might be, might be expressing and sharing the challenges that they have, but Paul has used some, some data there in terms of hospitalizations. So, yeah. What else you got?
Al ElliottAlright. So here's my argument number 3, and I've heard this quite a lot. It's this whole idea that toxic workplaces are just part of the world of work. Like, I put up with it. And to be fair, Like people, people who are maybe female boomers in their mid-70s probably put up with a load of shit that went, went down in the '50s, '60s, and '70s in the workplace. So, but the whole idea is that I put up with it. So, well, Gen Z need to learn to live with it. Here's what Rita thinks. And I think we're seeing a lot of evidence of this right now, that workplaces that evolve from a place of co-creation, and that's really the guidance I'm giving to my clients, getting out of this mindset of top-down of the leadership at the top needs to know everything, needs to own everything, needs to drive everything. And really, in what's about— I'm trying to think of the best way to say that. It is embracing. That's the word I'm looking for. Embracing fully this idea that we co-create with the people in the workplace. When you invite people into your team, into your workplace, you are not inviting them to follow your direction. You are inviting them to help you create and manifest your purpose. Yeah. Purpose and your intention. And people want that fullness. They don't want to just have said tasks to do. And that's why so many people have side hustle businesses going now and other things. That's the place where they get to, to allow that creation. But when you start looking at companies that are winning and you start rolling back what's happening inside of that organization and the culture, it really is this place where There is clear evidence that at every level, people are bought into the idea that they have a very important role to play in creating the success of the organization, and they are all in to make that happen.
Leanne ElliottThe world of work has fundamentally changed in the last 15 years, and there are no longer these safe, secure jobs There's no longer this guarantee if you go to university and that's your ticket into a higher paid job. There's no such thing as a secure pension. There's no such thing as working with an organization for life, which means that the power dynamic has shifted. If workers can't have this security, if those expectations of what was are no longer gonna turn into reality, then yeah, there is gonna be some pushback. Even if I can't get all these amazing security-based things in terms of what it means for my life, I at least want to be happy. I at least want to experience some kind of purpose. So you can ignore this. You can say, I went through this, this is just the way it is, put up with it. Gen Z won't. They will leave and they'll find an organization where things are different. Anything else, Al?
Al ElliottI think those are my 3 arguments, and I think you You and our wonderful guests have just, have just demolished them. Can I just say that I guess the more passionate they get, the cooler, like, I really love listening to people who are passionate about things. And particularly Rita back there, you can feel the passion in her voice, which is why she's such a great advocate for this kind of thing.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I agree. And I think what I'm enjoying as well, listening to these advocates of workplace culture, is the tone is slightly shifting. And I probably over-egged it a bit in terms of my tone shifting, but it is that kind of— whereas I think, I feel like we've spent the last few years trying to convince employee employers and business leaders that this is the way culture needs to go, and the pandemic has just rewritten all the rules, and Gen Z joining the workforce has rewritten all the rules. I think that tone is shifting from a kind of, oh, you know, you should really do this and won't that be great, to a bit more of a, you can believe that. things haven't changed, and you can keep things the same, but good luck to you.
Al Elliott100%. I think the, the pandemic is one of those weird things that it's just changed the way we look at everything. It's expedited where we would have been. I think without the pandemic, we probably would have been having these conversations about 10, 10 years, 8, 10 years down the line. We're having them now, which is cool.
Leanne ElliottYep. The genie is out of the bottle. So let's move on. What are the signs of a toxic workplace? And I think really we need to look at this in, in terms of it linking to the impact toxic workplaces have on employees, have on businesses. So with that, could the employee behavior that you're observing be a sign of a toxic workplace culture? How do employees typically react in these types of toxic environments?
Al ElliottStaff is suffering in silence. They don't know what to do, so they do nothing. They put their head down. They hope and pray that the bully stays away from them. They try to avoid, and certainly in the remote and virtual world, it's a little easier to do that now. But it's a huge problem globally, these toxic work environments where somehow leaders, some leaders get the message that the way to get things done is to lead by intimidation rather than treating people with respect and dignity. And an acknowledgement for the work that they were hired to do in the first place. It's not logical to me that we're permitting these toxic behaviors to exist in the workplace. And again, Al, that's why I felt it was so important to go into great detail in Staff Matters about what these behaviors look like and what staff can actually do about them. Besides quitting, we all know about the Great Resignation that happened. Well, toxic work environments are a big part of why we had mass numbers of staff quitting.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work, and we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode. And 2 out of 3 of us are devilishly good-looking. And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number 1 marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in 3s—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom. And how New York indie bands are paying agencies to create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is. It's such it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that'll be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed Can Balsamic Vinegar Make Beer Taste Better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd Are We All Just Status-Seeking Monkeys? I am.
Al ElliottGo and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back because Nudge isn't as good as this. So come back. I'll cut that out. Keep that in.
Leanne ElliottPeople quitting, high turnover rates are absolutely a red flag and suggest that you may well have a toxic workplace culture. But then we also have to think about quiet quitting, the other phenomenon that's talked about a lot in the media over the last 12 months. That's kind of the step before people actually, actually quit. They start to withdraw a little bit from their job. You're going to see drops in productivity. You might see absenteeism due to stress or, or mental health challenges, burnout even. It's also likely you're gonna start to see this lack of trust Um, it's gonna maybe result in disagreements between staff. If you're seeing these conflicts, these arguments happen more frequently, that could be a sign. Also, errors are more likely to occur, but not necessarily be reported because that psychological safety isn't there. So, we can expect unhappy customers as well. So, all in all, it is pretty impossible for somebody in a toxic work environment to do their best work.
Al ElliottI'll ask, My students and workshop attendees about their stress level on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most. What stress level does that behavior cause you on the average day? And when they start telling me numbers 6, 7, 8, 9, 20, you know, that's when I absolutely urge staff to take action about that. And, you know, to say things like, you know, Al, nobody talks to me like that. We need to find a different way to speak with each other. You know, when the stress level is off the charts, that's telling me that there's high trauma. And that, I mean, it's just not logical to think that when you're bullied and then you're feeling the feelings, right? You're feeling anger and sadness and depression.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottAnd preoccupation, you know, it's front of mind. That's all you can think about. You can't— all you want to do is not have it happen again. Now, can anybody do great work when they're feeling those things? And I would argue and think that most people would say, absolutely not. You can't do great work when you're feeling those things. So, it doesn't serve leaders. to permit them to continue.
Leanne ElliottAnd all of this on a commercial level is likely to look like stagnant growth, a reduction in revenue per head, a drop in profitability. Toxic workplaces aren't just bad for employee mental health, they're bad for business. Paula explains more.
Al ElliottThere's definitely a lot— a number of levels of impact. Uh, if we leave it, then things tend to just get worse. You know, just like any health issue, if it's a physical health issue, it's a mental health issue, if there's nothing that actually stops the course, the course often just does get worse. Many— there are other influences in people's lives, but why would you take the chance of not being helpful? So that's one thing. One of the reasons why it also can get worse even with nothing is that, you know, one of the biggest stresses that we have is just feeling alone. And when you have a mental health struggle, you're very likely to feel alone for a number of reasons. You know, you're— you wonder whether people understand you the way you really are. You feel the stigma, you know, of whether people are actually going to abandon you or look down on you if they know. And if you step in and make sure that people know that they're not alone, make sure that you— they know that you do value them, that wraps around the world twice in terms of helping people.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThe other thing is if we do nothing, and this is nothing on the broader sense, not just stepping in when people are struggling, but providing ongoing support so people can be their best, creating environments that are healthy, making sure that they're reminded of resources, all the things that are important, then from a clear business point of view, your business is not going to do as well.
Leanne ElliottWhat I love about What Paula said there, I love all of it, but one thing I particularly love, she says, think about the kinds of economies that we have now. We have people-powered economies, particularly if you're in a service-based business where your people are essentially your product. They are providing a service to your customers. Even, even if we just remove all the, all the, the people humanistic side from it and we just talk about it really coldly, if people are your product, Mm-hmm. And you're not investing time to make sure that your product is working brilliantly and has everything it needs and, and all the different— what am I trying to say? Like all the different components it needs to make up itself to be effective. Do you know what I'm trying to say?
Al ElliottSo if you, if you had a printing press and you were printing flyers, for example, and it was, there was 6 machines that printed these flyers and you ran them 24/7 and never once, and never once did any maintenance Oiled them, stroked them, spoke nicely to them at night, tucked them in. If you just didn't look after them, then they're gonna break down. Of course you're not gonna do that because you're not an idiot.
Leanne ElliottNo. And what you're talking about there perfectly— thank you, I was losing that— but probably there is, is, is kind of this, this prevention. You're doing maintenance to prevent a problem happening. Similarly, if that, if that printing press broke, What you can do, throw it out, just buy a brand new one, or actually invest time in trying to repair and recover the machine you've already invested in, in terms of money, in terms of, I don't know how it's configured. Maybe that takes time.
Al ElliottLet's stretch this analogy as far as it'll go, because if your printing press does break down, the first thing you look at is probably working out what is the single point of failure in that machine. And you go, right, well, that's clearly what's been under a lot of stress. So therefore we fix that. And so it's like same with, with all of your people. Your people, you push to put too much pressure on them, they're gonna break. But you can probably nail that down to like one single point that you've put too much pressure on them, and that's what broke them. It is the fact that Brian from accounting came in and said, um, you slightly, uh, you put your expense form in the wrong in-tray, and therefore We're not paying it, so start it again. We'll pay next week. Fuck off, Brian.
Leanne ElliottIt's not helpful, Brian. It's not helpful.
Al ElliottPerfect.
Leanne ElliottAgain, let's, let's just push this analogy a little bit more. What you're talking about there, I'm thinking like you take a car into like into it. What? I don't know. I don't know cars. But if it's got a problem and you plug something in, it tells you where the error is. Yeah. What's the diagnosis in terms of workplace culture? Insights, an engagement survey, a wellbeing survey. It's not sexy, but it's a diagnosis and you can spend infinite amounts of money trying to fix your car if you don't know what the problem is, or you can invest a little bit of money to have an expert tell you this is the problem and then spend your targeted investment actually fixing that problem. And if we're going to push this even more, I think I have one more push. We're talking about toxic workplace environments. And we, we talked about this in our, in our burnout episode, you know, that often burnout is attributed to the individual being weak. Not being resilient enough, not being able to cope. And I think it was Sally Clark who said something like, if all the fish in a lake dies, you don't blame the individual fish, you start to look at the chemical formulation of the lake. So using the printing press idea, if your printing press breaks down, you don't go, oh, there must be something wrong with the roof. So yeah, anyway, I think we've taken this analogy as far as we can.
Al ElliottSo I think what we need to look at really is, like, we've looked at all of the basics, and we've looked, we've asked loads and loads of questions. We need to say, what actually, what practical things can leaders do to prevent a toxic workplace culture? So I think, Leanne, you've put together 10 ways in which we can actually prevent or fix these toxic workplace cultures.
Leanne ElliottI have 10, 10 recommendations for you. So before we dive into each one, should I just go through? The 10?
Al ElliottThat'll be good.
Leanne ElliottYeah, so the first one is stay curious, be open to having a problem. 2 is understand secrets, including your own. Number 3 is create trust and empathy with staff so that they feel safe enough to share their secrets. Number 4, respect people's feelings and preferences, especially when it comes to physical contact. Number 5, collect insights. Number 6, Employee voice. Number 7, ensure your remote or hybrid model is respectful. Number 8, take it to coaching. Take it to your leadership coach or use some self-coaching questions. Number 9, invest in managers. And number 10, hire an expert.
Al ElliottLovely. So it would be logical to start at number 1.
Leanne ElliottIt would.
Al ElliottSo first one, stay curious, be open to having a problem. What does this mean?
Leanne ElliottSo, I think it's like, you know, when you kind of talk about addiction, like the first step of curing addiction is to understand you have an addiction. I think the first step of curing a toxic workplace culture is being open to the fact that you might have a problem. You know, the absence of reports of harassment or bullying or disrespectful behaviour, the lack of those reports does not mean that there is an absence of incidents. Bullying, harassment, unethical behaviors— they are big scary claims, and it might feel better not to poke the bear, or to keep your head in the sand, or, you know, ignorance is bliss. Um, but yeah, surprisingly, this is not an effective long-term strategy, as Bonnie explains.
Al ElliottAll of that adds up, Al, to a lot of silence. That's why I say the book says the quiet parts out loud. Bullying and sexual harassment, these are secrets. These are embarrassing, demoralizing secrets that staff are living with on a day-in, day-out basis, and they are trying hard to survive them. If staff does not feel safe to go to HR and staff does not feel safe to go to leaders, that means that those people simply do not know. And staff tell me that sometimes they feel like their leaders don't want to know or that they are oblivious to what's really happening in the departments. And I think that's dangerous, especially in this post-pandemic environment where decisions are happening on a daily basis that have monetary impact. They're impacting people.
Leanne ElliottPeople.
Al ElliottAnd my concern is, my fear is that leaders do not have complete information because their staff in large part are too frightened to tell them what's really happening. Now, one big indicator, if leaders are very curious about, you know, if bullying is a problem in their company, one metric that is a very strong indicator is the employee retention rates. People don't leave companies where they feel respected and valued. They do leave, as you know, Marcus Buckingham is the leadership expert who coined that phrase that people don't leave companies, they leave managers. Marcus Buckingham had coined that. And it's, it, you know, really hits you in the gut. People leave people. So number one is staying curious. But there's something which Bonnie alluded to there, which was secrets. It's a whole chapter in her book. And the secrets is the idea that we all have kind of stuff that we don't want other people to necessarily know about, but will influence the way that we look at the world in the workplace. So I asked Bonnie to explain a bit more about what she meant by this idea of secrets. In my experience, and, you know, I would challenge you and whoever, we all have secrets inside us. I believe that the people in our lives, our families, our friends, our colleagues, that it's human nature to put people in boxes. I call them metaphoric boxes, you know, where we size people up and we kind of know their story. We know enough of their story that we feel like we have a handle on what makes them tick. What I have found, though, is that most people have at least an equal amount of facts about them, things about themselves that are secret, that are none of our business, none of other people's business, that we probably will never know and that we shouldn't know. And those pieces, I call them secrets, those things sometimes manifest themselves in everyday life. So what I understood from what Bonnie was saying was that there is stuff that goes on in your personal life or has gone on in your personal life that can be triggered quite easily at work that you would have no idea about as a, as a colleague, as a manager, or as a leader.
Leanne ElliottYeah. This is actually one thing that That I got taught when I, I trained in coaching was that there's, there's, there's always this feeling that we need to know what the information is. Like if someone said, I had a really bad experience, I don't wanna talk about the experience, but I wanna talk about how it made me feel. People get fixated on what happened. Why'd you do this? And you don't need that information. And I think that's the same if, you know, you, you have a secret. I mean, to share one of my secrets, I think we actually already shared on the podcast, but Mm-hmm. we were involved in an attempted carjacking a few years ago. It was late at night. Um, it was in the car. I was driving. It was all very, very scary. And that did lead to, to some anxiety that I experienced later down the road. But it's also things like incongruence, like it— because that situation didn't make sense to me. I didn't understand why there was a car in the middle of the road. I didn't understand why there's a man getting out with a baseball bat. If I'm now in situations where I can't grasp what's going on, I start to feel that kind of low-level anxiety. And I guess it's like if I worked for an organisation, they're like, oh, we're going out for a client dinner, are you okay to drive home? And I was driving home at night. If I said, do you know what? I'm actually not comfortable driving home. If as a leader, my leader's then going, well, why not? We really need you to do this. Blah. I'm gonna have to share my secret rather than you having the, the faith in me, the trust in me that if I say I can't do something, there'll be a reason for that.
Al ElliottYeah. I think that's a really, really good point that if someone say, if, if, if you've got a good relationship with someone, they say, look, I just really don't wanna do that, then you should be able to say, okay.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWe'll go and do something else. And that makes perfect sense. Mine isn't a secret either, but I was bankrupt in 2007 for about 103 grand. And so now I've got this thing about money where— and it's kind of like the opposite. It's like when people slag off rich people and go, oh, look at them, they're filthy rich. And I'm just like, hang on a minute. Some of those people— not saying all, but some of those people have worked bloody hard for what they've got. And it just really, really gets on my nerves when they go, oh, they should pay 70% taxes. Like, well, wait a minute, where's the incentive for them to go off and make more money? Um, so, so that annoys me. And then when, when I never say I can't afford something, which is probably to my detriment, because then I go and buy stuff that probably I don't have the funds for at the time. So you notice I didn't say can't afford at that point, um, because I just hate the idea of not having money. When we grew up, we didn't have a lot of money, so I heard we can't afford it a lot. So that's one of my sort of secrets.
Leanne ElliottMm-hmm.
Al ElliottUm, so if I was a meeting with an investor and the investor said, look, at this point, we can't afford to do this. My, my hackles would be up and I'd be like, whoa, we need to find a way to do this, which is good, but also not great. Anyway, so the pandemic is a massively traumatic experience. And we definitely— I'm not saying all, but most of us share the secret of the pandemic really affecting the way that we live. So we asked Paula about this. And we asked her what the impact of the pandemic had on We know what the pandemic did for mental health. At Lifeworks, we have a mental health index, and we've been collecting data since 2017 and started doing so and publishing monthly in 2020, April 2020. And we have measures of the mental health of the working population before and after, and there's a tremendous difference. There's been a tremendous decline in mental health.
Leanne ElliottWow.
Al ElliottAnd that decline, although we've improved somewhat, really is nowhere near where it was in 2019 and before. And when you think about it, what did the pandemic bring into our lives from a mental health point of view? It brought change. It brought uncertainty. It brought a sense that you didn't have full control over things. It brought risk. It brought increased isolation. Those are the big triggers. The human mind doesn't like any of those points that I had mentioned. They put undue stress on us. And this was going on for months, for years. So up and down and left and right and change and uncertainty and things. And what happens is that, that, you know, one way to sort of understand it is, you know, we have a part of our brain that responds to stress like that fight or flight.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottflight response. There's a risk, there's an uncertainty, there's an unsettling, and that fight or flight was super engaged because it had to be because of our situation. So we're super engaged in that part of our thinking and that part of our brain work. And what happens is it actually competes with the part of our brain that is responsible for emotional control, that it's, you know, that's empathetic. So we have actually gotten used to being in a way that is more sensitive to stress than we were before. So that's not going to go away just because things change. It takes a while. It takes intention for, for any human being to get out of the impact of what is really, you know, it meets the definition of long-term trauma.
Leanne ElliottI think there can be a feeling from people in general that the pandemic, looking back, wasn't that traumatic. You know, okay, we had to stay at home for a while, and, and, you know, we worked from home and whatever else. But it's, you know, as Paula said there, what's, what's happening is that stress is, is interfering with our emotional control. Um, so we're, we're experiencing that, that stress differently retrospectively and looking back and, and with less emotion. So I stand by the fact that that you don't need to necessarily know somebody's secret to support them in the work environment and make sure that they're not experiencing any negative behaviours or experiences due to not sharing the secret. But similarly, if we can create trust and empathy with staff so that they feel safe enough to share their secrets, then it can help us, I guess, make decisions ahead of time. We only know what we know, and the only way to understand what employees have been through and how they might respond to the environment they're in and the stresses they're experiencing is if they share their secrets. So with me, you would know as my manager, if you knew my carjacking secret, you'd never ask me to, to drive at night. But to share secrets, our staff need to trust us. They need to trust us as leaders, need to trust colleagues, and in return be shown the compassion and empathy that their experience deserves.
Al ElliottAs Puller explains, I think one of the things is, you know, asking if you're okay is a great way to start the conversation. It shows that you care. It's a good conversation starter, you know, but we kind of learn, you know, when we're growing up to have knee-jerk responses like, how are you? Fine. Okay, I'm good. Like, we have these knee-jerk responses. What you can do You know, as a second point, or even instead of the, are you okay, is be a little bit more specific, like actually trigger a conversation as opposed to sort of a knee-jerk response. And if you're, if you're, if you are worried about something, you have seen something. So think about what you've seen. So, Joe, I noticed that, you know, you're, you're more short with people, you're more angry with people than you were before. You know, I'm just wondering, you know, is anything going on? Can I help? You know, are you okay? It's a preamble to it. It doesn't just allow for that knee-jerk reaction. You know, I've noticed that, you know, you've always been on time in terms of all your reports, all your work, and I've noticed over the last a while, but you seem to be struggling. Are you okay? Like, it allows people to feel seen, which is important, but it also gives people an opportunity to really think very practically about the fact that something might be different.
Leanne ElliottThese types of relationships take intention and time and patience and practice. People trust at different speeds, particularly if they've experienced a toxic workplace or a toxic leader in the past. And as a manager, this might sound like a lot of work, but the benefits of these relationships do actually work both ways. Positive relationships are as important for a manager in terms of resilience and fulfilment and performance, and they remove the unpredictability and ambiguity of the workplace. A good manager is rarely surprised by an employee decision. They see it coming. Here's Paula.
Al ElliottPart of the work that we do is to support people who are on long-term leave because of health issues. And this work was done a little while ago, but we did 2 pieces of work. One is we were asking people, you know, when they— we're asking managers when they first saw that something was not right, you know, when they thought that there might be, you know, your employee might be going going on leave or might go on leave. So the employee was already on leave and we asked them to think back. And on average, it was 18 months that they started to, to pick up something wasn't right. 18 months. But most of the time they didn't know what to do. They didn't know how to step in. On the other side, very often when people do call us proactively for in our EAP. Sometimes it is the fact that someone at work noticed something different. You know, you might be feeling a little bit off. Your family might say something, and you ignore your family. But when you can no longer, quote unquote, hide, and it's showing up at work, often that is the trigger for people getting help. And getting help is a good thing.
Leanne ElliottIt can be easy to flippantly say to somebody, how are you? Oh, yeah, fine. Good. And we talked about that a lot in our burnout episode. episodes, didn't we? But yeah, as Paul said, you know, if you, if you notice something different, you notice these changes in behaviors, then your job as a manager should be checking in and seeing if that person is okay. And you don't need to say, oh, you know, you look like shit, everything all right? You just give it something like, I've noticed something's different, how, you know, what, what's going on? Is there anything I can, I can help you with? Um, and just having those conversations. Um, and yeah, you know, the longer you've had that, um, that trust in your relationship, that empathy, within your relationship, the easier it's gonna be for, for people to, to come, come to you.
Al ElliottAnd I think moving on from that, because it slides nicely into number 4, which is respecting people's feelings and preferences when it comes to physical contact. When I was a manager, when I had my first business, we had about 25, 30 staff. And I think I was, I was only like 24 at the time. And I think I was quite tactile with the people because I saw them as just like friends. They were my peer group. So I'd go along and I put my hand on someone's shoulder going, how are you getting on today? When they're on the phone, you're like, how are you getting on today? Have you sold much beer? Because that's what we sold. We delivered beer. And I think that that might have been okay back then, but it probably wasn't. We should probably err on the side of no physical contact, and particularly with the new generations, because there is some research that, that Gen Z, millennials, boomers, and Gen X all just react to physical contact in a different way.
Leanne ElliottHere's Bunny.
Al ElliottWell, I was just going to say, remember during the pandemic we had to ask permission, can I shake your hand? Right? Because we were all about washing our hands. And it really is about, can, can I hug you? Let's not skip the step. You know, I'd love to give you a hug right now. Would that be okay? And, you know, because some environments, you know, I've heard— had many staff, men and women, say, I'm very huggy. That's just the way I am. Well, in your personal life, that's one thing. In the workplace, it's another. And in the workplace, it's not that hugging is forbidden. It just is up to getting permission to do so. That's, that really is what it's about. Can I give you a hug? I'd love to give you a hug.
Leanne ElliottI'm, I'm huggy. And I had staff that, you know, I used to, I used to give a hug if I hadn't seen them for, for a while. Would I do that now? Probably not. Or I guess it's whether you have that, that permission again, isn't it? I like that. We learned— I like that about the pandemic. Physical space is important, um, and permission is important. Consent is important. So our 5th recommendation is to collect insights. Al, I worry I sound like a broken record at this point, so can you take this one?
Al ElliottYeah, I think when it comes to insights, if we're running any kind of marketing campaign, then we're going to use Google Analytics to find out how well each advert is doing, or we'll use our own Fathom or whatever we're going to use for our analytics. If we are investing in something, then we have a spreadsheet telling us how much we've spent and what our return on investment is. It doesn't seem like we're collecting the same information for our workplace. Workplace insights is one of the most important things you can actually measure because you can see when there's going to be potential problems coming up. You can also see what's going well. And of course, it To a certain extent, it has to be anonymized. But then that's the same as Google Analytics. You can't see exactly what Jeff from Iowa is doing. But you can see that a number of people are leaving your sales funnel, your marketing funnel on page 4. So I think we need to be paying attention to the metrics. Rita agrees. So there, there are 3 key components that really you need to be paying attention to in your business. Inasmuch as you are paying attention to the financials, right? So in your financials, you're paying attention to your income stream, you're paying attention to your expenses, right? Your fixed, your variable. You have certain key indicators, right? The same thing needs to happen in your culture. And I'm going to give you those 3 things that you always want to be paying attention to. And if you want more about this, we're going to link you into my LinkedIn profile, I believe. And I've been doing a series on LinkedIn about this very thing. So the first thing is belonging. Do people have a clear connection with one another? Do they have shared experience together, shared relationship? And then the next thing that happens once we feel like we have belonging is then we can focus on our contribution. Now we can show our competence. So we can allow our full selves to show up in the workplace. And this is what we all want as business owners and leaders, right? We want people to have their full potential on full display in our business at all times. That's how we're going to get maximum optimal contribution. That's how we're going to achieve high performance as a team. But belonging is the first thing that has to happen. So we have belonging, then we allow people to unleash their contribution into the workplace. And once I have— I know I belong here, I feel competent and confident in my ability to add value into this workplace. Now I have affiliation. Now I have alliance. Now I have shared purpose. I have shared meaning. I have shared intention. I am now connected to the organization. So belonging is more at the person-to-person level, and this affiliation is more at the organizational level. You think people join an organization and they feel automatically, they feel connection to the organization, but that's not true. We have to build that. We 100% agree with Rita, which is why we have created something called the RX7. You've probably heard us talking about it before. Essentially, it is a workplace insights tool. It measures things like, well, what does it measure, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottWell, it measures things like belonging and things like loyalty and organisational commitment. But it also measures the foundations of workplace culture that leaders can control to support these positive feelings and behaviours and attitudes for work. So, yeah, so we measure the engagement factor, but we also measure the culture factor.
Al ElliottExactly. And it's called the RX7, by the way, because There are 7 things, 7 foundations to an amazing workplace, and they all begin with R, which is kinda handy.
Leanne ElliottKinda handy, isn't it?
Al ElliottSo on to number 6, which is employee voice. Leanne, what do we need to know about employee voice?
Leanne ElliottWe know from previous conversations that we've had that employee voice is one of the most effective ways to build psychological safety. And that is basically asking your employees for their ideas, their concerns, their opinions, and hearing them with openness and empathy and no judgment, no fear of negative consequences. So, that could be gathering insights as you would through the RX7, it could be having listening events, it could be having feedback channels. There's lots of different ways to implement employee voice. Bonnie also sees employee voice as an excellent way to ensure that even the most difficult of leadership decisions are made with respect.
Al ElliottIt is, what I've seen is even if The decision being made by leaders is not the preferable one by staff, that it is respectful to ask. Chapter 4 in the book is called Ask First. Leaders would do well to ask their staff about decisions that are about to be made and get it. And that feels respectful to just be queried about, what do you think about that?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottDo you have an opinion? Is there a better way? And, and I, what I see is that in the rush to make decisions, sometimes that step is being skipped over. And so, I would be urging leaders to take a fresh look at who it is they've got on their team.
Leanne ElliottRita also uses employee voice to create positive workplace cultures, and does clarify that it's not about giving people what they want. It's more about facilitating their understanding of the leadership choices and decisions that have been made. And that might sound familiar. Um, yeah, we're back to transparency. Here's Rita.
Al ElliottThe, so I, I'll give it, I'll give it the example that I share in, in my book, Show Up Positive. There is one company that I worked with during the pandemic, and, and I conclude each chapter in part one of the book. unveiling part of the story, and the story relates to the chapter. So you get to follow one company throughout part 1 of the book by just reading the story at the end of the chapter. And so this was a small family-owned construction business, a lot of family members actively involved working day to day inside of the business. Like so many, when the pandemic shutdown occurred, they sort of closed up the doors, everybody went home. Then they received word that they were an essential business and that they could return to work. But it was, you know, it was a very difficult time. The owner didn't know how much work there would be and had to think about payroll and sustaining the business and all of those things. So he went to the— to his employees, and he said, I can't bring all of you back right now. I just don't know that I have the work for that. I understand you might have to make other decisions. You may not want to wait for me. I'm— I understand this could be my loss, but I've got to make what I think is the right decision. Certainly, I've got this question. Leaders are going to ask, where is the line? So where's the line between being transparent and oversharing? How can we be honest without telling them about stuff that they don't need to know without putting unnecessary stress on their teams? I asked Rita about this. I think there is a difference between— I'm going to use this visual that one of my clients used one time. And he's like, you just don't jump up on the conference table and drop a load. And, you know, you can't do that to people. That's not what it's about. I think you can say that if you say, and 21 days that we have to— and so I need all of your best thinking with me about how we are going to turn around this crisis in the next 21 days. And I have some thoughts about some of the essential things that we need to do, but I really need your input about how we go about doing those in ways that you can support. And that, you know, I'm not trying to transfer the burden to you, but the house is on fire. We've got to put the fire out. I need your help to do that.
Leanne ElliottDoes that answer your question now?
Al ElliottPerfectly. Don't, don't get on the, on the Don't take a crap on the boardroom table is what I took from that.
Leanne ElliottVery good. Um, our 7th recommendation comes back to remote and hybrid working models and making sure that they are respectful. And you might be thinking, how could they be disrespectful? Well, if we think about even the hybrid model now being a thing, um, it's because people have different preferences, probably based on their home circumstances. If I have children at home, um, then it might be better for me to, in terms of my childcare, to work from home on certain days. It might be much better for me to be in the office if I've got deep thinking work to do. I think the point is it's individualistic, and this is where kind of mandating people to be in the office on certain days can become problematic. Bonnie also thinks that remote and hybrid work is an important consideration when making sure behaviors at work remain respectful?
Al ElliottWell, it, it really is about not skipping over feelings and understanding. For example, when the pandemic first hit and we were all on Zoom and StreamYard and, and video conferencing, all of a sudden, in 5 minutes, it felt like staff were creating home offices, right? And some people had to have their cameras on in their bedrooms or in their apartments that were modest, that they weren't necessarily camera ready. And that, you know, somebody might make fun of, you know, like, wow, that's a really tiny place you have there, Al. And it could be a seemingly innocent comment, but it comes across as really disrespectful. Yeah. We're on new territory is the thing. These last 3 years have created a whole new ballgame. And HR is struggling to create new rules of coming into the office and not. And are the working moms feeling that they're having to follow different rules than, than folks who are coming into the office, say, um, or that they're being judged harshly because they're staying home with their children. It's a tricky dynamic that the world has run so fast and the humans are having trouble keeping up.
Leanne ElliottI remember doing a wellbeing audit for a client and they couldn't understand why people were unhappy when they would let them go home early from work. Like, they had a really great day and they'd be like, you know what, guys, it's half past 3, go home. Um, and a couple of members of staff found this really disrespectful. And when I dug into it, it's because they'd arranged childcare. They've paid for childcare. They've arranged for someone to go and pick their kids up at school. So having that spontaneous early finish was disrespectful. You're disrespecting the, the things I've had to do to be here until half past 5 today. Um, so this is one of those really, again, an innocent thing that might feel like we're doing the right thing as leaders, like we're being nice, but for others it might come across a little bit differently.
Al ElliottSo I think it's just about having just respect for the people you work with.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and I think, and being open to the fact that, that what you think is respect might actually be disrespectful. We need to dig down, dig down sometimes. So our 8th recommendation is Uh, coaching. If you have a coach, take this, all of these questions, uh, to coaching. If you don't have a coach, um, consider getting one. Um, if for whatever reason you, you can't do that right now, um, self-coaching is also a really great way, um, in terms of reflection, in terms of journaling, um, you know, taking some of, some of these questions and, and really spending the time to reflect on it. Al always laughs at me because he'll ask me a question, I'll go, I need to think about that, and I'll literally sit there for like 5 minutes and think about it. But that's what reflection is, you know, we need to work through the possibilities so we're not jumping to conclusions or, or making assumptions. So yeah, we need to, we need to start— all of this coaching starts with self-awareness and checking our own behavior, as Paula explains.
Al ElliottI think the number one thing, and I mentioned all the, all the, the, the characteristics of, um, of, of leaders, and I think paying attention to that is sort of important in terms of just, you know, checking your own behavior and, you know, are you doing things that are helpful or not helpful. But the number one thing is to make sure that people feel included and psychologically safe and valued. You know, maybe that's not the number one thing. Those are a cluster of 3. But it is, it is that, that feeling of feeling safe and sense of belonging. And I tell you why that's important. You don't want to do harm. You know, the number one thing is to do no harm. You know, people might have a lot of stresses in their lives. They— and work itself is a stress, but it should be an engaging stress. You should have a challenge and move out after that stress. You shouldn't be just thinking about who's talking behind your back or, you know, whether you're going to get a big hammer if you just say something wrong.
Leanne ElliottYou know, you should feel that Paula makes a really good point there. It can be easy for us to say, you know, to answer the question, what was the last thing you did with the intention of helping your employees feel a sense of belonging? And these are types of coaching questions that can really help this reflection and help you identify if you may have pockets of toxicity in your culture. Bonnie also offers some really useful coaching questions. So, I think that's a really good question.
Al ElliottHave you— do you yell at people on a regular basis?
Leanne ElliottHmm.
Al ElliottAnother one is, do you— have you had people quit repeatedly over the last 6 months? Think about the people who've left your employment. Another question is, do you ask people why they're quitting? Do you think it's funny to make fun of people? Those are the kinds of questions to test to see if you yourself are exhibiting some bullying behavior. And I do that in order to give them insight. Oh, I also ask them, how would you feel about your son or daughter working for you? Bridges into an awareness of the kinds behaviors that they would be subjected to. So number 9 is to invest in your managers. So as Paula is going to point out, that the manager has a massive impact on the workplace, on the relationships in the workplace. And she just says we need to invest in our managers. It's come up through our research that how the manager shows up can have an impact. It has a relationship with the level of well-being that their staff has. So this is in one of our mental health index reports. We looked at a number of things. One thing was, as you would expect, if the manager is humanistic, if they genuinely care about people, employees had better mental health scores. The other thing is actually charisma. If the manager felt it was inspirational or motivational, that actually helped people as well. That got them engaged more. That helped them feel more meaning in terms of their work. That was helpful to their mental well-being. The other thing was just autonomous. You know, managers who were able to make decisions, you know, clear decisions, so people felt that kind of confidence And stability, you know, that was important. The other thing was inclusive, you know, making sure that people didn't feel that there were cliques or there was isolation or anything of that sort. And the other thing, the other factor that we found that was important is having a team orientation. So you're working towards a collective good, you know, you're all working towards making sure that the team does their work well, that the organization successes, and it's not just about the manager looking good, or one or two people looking good. So those are the factors that actually did make a difference in terms of the mental well-being of, of, of teams.
Leanne ElliottThe list is long when it comes to the benefits of having— do you know what, not even great managers, just average managers, people who have some form of management competence in, in management. Um, yeah, mental health, well-being, engagement, productivity, performance, belonging, reduced turnover. The list, the list goes on. If you do one thing as a business leader, invest in your managers. And finally, number 10, um, our final recommendation: hire an expert. You know, if you're getting investigated by HMRC or, you know, the taxman for unethical or illegal behavior, you'd call an expert. Um, so, you know, if you think you have a toxic workplace culture that could very likely include unethical unethical or illegal behavior, you hire an expert, right, Rita?
Al ElliottI think that you start with really getting clear about, um, how you want to engage. To what end? To what end? What am I asking my people to help me to do? And, and the other thing I was saying, this is going to sound very self-serving, and it isn't— it's not— but you really need to bring in an outside expert like myself. to help you if you're in this situation. If you're thinking, I probably need to do that, but I don't even know where to start, where to start is getting the right kind of help and somebody that can help you assess and frame things up and decide where you are. The good thing of bringing in somebody who's trained like I am in organizational psychology is I'm going to come in, And the first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do a deep assessment. I will not work with you if you won't give me access at all levels of your organization, 'cause I can't just know what the senior people know. I need you and you need me, but I need to understand where and how communication is flowing to the deepest. What are people down at the organization understanding or not understanding about what people at the top of the organization— where does that disconnect happen?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottIf you're hiring somebody to come in as a consultant and help you with your business, and they're not doing an assessment like that to begin with, you've hired the wrong person.
Leanne ElliottToxic or not, it's unlikely as a business owner or senior business leader that you are going to have an accurate picture of what your workplace culture is like if you are not measuring it, if you are not doing these deep assessments. And of course, whatever improvements that you want to make in your culture, whether it's inclusion, whether it's innovation, whether it's creativity, whether it's growth mindset, how can you make those improvements if you don't know where you're starting from? You know, it comes back down to the most important thing you can do to understand how to get to where you're going is understand your starting point.
Al ElliottAnd also, once you are doing those things, once you've implemented some kind of project, you want to see if it's worked. How are you going to to measure that? know if you haven't measured at the beginning and haven't measured at the end. Anyway, so I feel like we have hammered home this idea about workplace metrics.
Leanne ElliottSo, yeah, we've covered a lot. We've covered a lot there, and I think it is kind of this one-stop guide to understanding and fixing toxic workplace cultures. If you have any questions, get in touch. We will leave all the links to our guests below, including Bonnie and Rita's really great books. Actually, we've read them both. So, yeah, let us know if you have a question, if you're interested in employee insights, Insights, anything at all, you can, you can get in touch. We, we get the occasional email, but I still think some of you don't know that that email really is in the show notes.
Al ElliottTo be fair, sometimes the show notes doesn't show on every single app.
Leanne ElliottThat's true.
Al ElliottBut, yeah, if you're interested in getting in touch, then just podcast@truthliesandwork.com. And if you— that will put you in touch with the right person if you wanna speak to them. So that has been—
Leanne ElliottGo and play it. Another chunky episode.
Al ElliottI'm not going to— I stopped saying— I didn't want to say that because I always say it. Um, and, um, but I think that there's been a lot there about toxic workplace cultures. There's obviously 2 amazing books that you can go and buy, um, for it to learn a bit more about that. And then the links, as Leanne says, are in the show notes. We are going— I think, what are we doing next week? Do we know what we're doing next week?
Leanne ElliottNext week, yes, we do. We have another great episode next week. Next week we are talking all about the 4-day workweek. What is the, the psychology arguments for it? And importantly, what are the commercial arguments for it? Can you afford as a business owner to put your staff on a 4-day workweek at full pay?
Al ElliottWe've got 3 amazing guests, one who's the expert, literally the world expert. If you Google 4-day workweek, he comes up. One who is a consultant, and one person who's done it. So it's gonna be a great episode. So we will see you next time.
Leanne ElliottSee you there.
Al ElliottBye for now.