Episode 39 · 17 May 2023 · 1:14:13
How to Unlock Leadership Potential: Putting Employees at the Heart of the Story
How to Unlock Leadership Potential: Putting Employees at the Heart of the Story
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Editing your ego: why leaders must make the story about the team
Marketing storytelling as the model for leadership
The problem: leaders assume people care (they don't — yet)
12,000 messages a day — how brains filter you out
Why employees are silently editing your presentation
Wrapping your message in story — the 'calories' of communication
Google's 'Don't be evil' — three words that tell a story
The power of words with Orly
The StoryBrand framework: hero, problem, guide, plan, call to action
Stop being the hero — become the guide
Step one: who am I? Clarifying what you do
Values that resonate with Gen Z and millennials
Recommendation #2: brand alignment
Case study: the summer day camp that lost its why
Employees don't come for ping pong tables
The fostering campaign that made Leanne cry
Recommendation #3: authenticity in leadership
The four characters in every story — victim, villain, hero, guide
The coaching exercise: what would you attempt if you knew you couldn't fail?
Recommendation #4: culture as a living, breathing thing
Nordstrom's legendary customer service (and the tires story)
Google's 20% time — culture in action
Onboarding as a brand moment
Extend what you already do for customers to employees
"Stop seeing employees as a cost — see them as an investment"
The 5 key takeaways recap
What happens when you get it wrong — the cautionary tale
The best leaders make it about their people
Show notes
How to Unlock Leadership Potential: Putting Employees at the Heart of the Story
Truth, Lies & Work — Al Elliott and Leanne Elliott (Chartered Occupational Psychologist) explore the #1 skill leaders need to develop to inspire employees and elevate performance: storytelling. Joined by two incredible guests — Dr. J.J. Peterson, Head of StoryBrand, and Orly Zeewy, brand architect and author of Ready, Launch, Brand — they break down how leaders can shift from being the hero to being the guide, clarify their values, and build cultures where people genuinely thrive.
This is where people & culture meet brand & marketing like never before.
The Big Idea: Stop Being the Hero
The biggest problem with being a leader? You almost certainly think people are listening more than they are. Our brains are bombarded with up to 12,000 messages a day — and they're designed to keep us alive, not to remember your quarterly update.
J.J. Peterson's fix comes from StoryBrand: stop positioning yourself as the hero of your organization's story and start positioning yourself as the guide. The hero is your customer — and your employee. The guide gives them a plan, helps them overcome their problem, and calls them to action.
Orly Zeewy puts it simply: "I help my clients realize their lightbulb moments." She's the guide in her clients' stories — and leaders need to do the same for their teams.
Top 5 Takeaways
- Clarify your values. Understand what's important to you and how that resonates with the people you're trying to attract and retain. If you don't know who you are, no one else will either.
- Align your brand. Your customer brand and employer brand should tell the same story. If they don't, people notice — and they leave.
- Practice authenticity. Leaders who admit they don't have all the answers are the ones people trust. Try the coaching exercise: what would you attempt if you knew you couldn't fail?
- Keep culture simple. You probably only need one core value — and the ability to describe it in one sentence. Culture is a living, breathing thing, not a poster on the wall.
- Look for opportunities in what you're already doing. You already tell stories to your customers. Extend that same care and craft to your employees — and watch the difference.
Resources
Connect with J.J. Peterson
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/j-j-peterson-1b4011a2
- Website: storybrand.com
- Twitter: twitter.com/DrJJPeterson
- Book, Building a StoryBrand: Amazon
Connect with Orly Zeewy
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/orlyzeewy
- Website: zeewybrands.com
- Twitter: twitter.com/orlyzeewy
- Book, Ready, Launch, Brand: Amazon
More from the show
- Randstad Workmonitor 2023 Report: randstad.co.uk/workmonitor
- Bonnie Tyler — Holding Out for a Hero: youtube.com
Listen back to Truth, Lies & Work for more on:
Connect With Us
Get in touch, book a call, or find Al and Leanne on LinkedIn — all in one place: truthliesandwork.com/connect
Mental health support: findahelpline.com — UK: Samaritans 116 123 · Mind 0300 123 3393 — US: 988 — Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14
Truth, Lies & Work is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network.
Full transcript
Expand full transcript
Al ElliottThe dirty little secret is that most businesses think they know their customers. They have the data, the records, the history, but it's scattered across 3 teams and 4 systems. And in our case, it's about 216,000 spreadsheets, which means nobody can actually use it.
Leanne ElliottWhat you should be doing is using HubSpot, because why? HubSpot connects it all— every interaction, every support ticket, every conversation— into one platform every team can work from. So when sales talks to a customer, marketing already knows the full story. And when you know more, you grow more.
Al ElliottNice. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. So you might say, all right, this year we want to be a successful company that grows. That's about me. The reality is, in an uncertain economic climate, A lot of people are worried about how businesses are going to do this year. That's the problem.
Leanne ElliottHello and welcome to the Truth, Lies and Workplace Culture podcast, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne. I'm a business psychologist.
Al ElliottMy name is Al. I'm a business owner.
Leanne ElliottAnd we are here to help you simplify the science of people and create amazing workplace cultures.
Al ElliottSo today we are talking about editing your ego as a leader.
Leanne ElliottWe are, we are talking about leadership, and specifically, the number one skill that leaders should develop to be more effective in inspiring employees and elevating performance. So yeah, it is time to drop the ego and start inspiring others.
Al ElliottNow, as a marketer, regular listeners know that I'm a marketing nerd. As a marketer, we've kind of learned that this is, this is always the best policy. Because if you think about the best marketing campaigns, they're never about the product, they're about the consumer. So kind of every marketing story that really resonates makes the end user the hero, and the company or the supplier is kind of like the guide to help the user reach a certain goal. So for example, arguably one of the best campaigns in history is Nike, where every single piece of content is about the user winning at something. If I remember, one of their taglines is, if you have a body, you're an athlete.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottWhat an incredible piece of content, piece of marketing. Now Apple, for example, it doesn't talk about like IBM does and some of the other things do, like, oh, it's got the latest Snapdragon iOS. That's probably— I think Snapdragon might be Android actually. But it's got the latest iOS that does this and then 16,000 megapixel camera. What the whole point of Apple is, they show us users being effortlessly cool and more importantly, differently.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliottdifferent by using their products. In short, they tell stories about how they guide the user into some kind of goal. And that's what great leaders do. They make the story about the team, not them or the company. Now, this is tough to do because as a leader, you kind of feel like, you know, heavy is the crown and all that. A lot of things are on your shoulders. But we want to help you change that. And we want to show you that the single most effective way to get what you want is to help others get what they want. And that's by making them the hero of the story. You may have already guessed just by listening to us that this is an episode which I am really passionate about because Leanne's only said about 16 words so far. The reason why this is— I'm so passionate about this because we have on the podcast Dr. JJ Peterson. He is one half of StoryBrand along with Donald Miller. Just one of my favorite books. I picked it up about 8 years— no, 6 years ago, I think it was when it first came out. Absolutely loved it, and so we are going to be talking a lot about StoryBrand, but specifically how it relates to being a leader. So let's just quickly introduce Dr. JJ Peterson. So he's the head of StoryBrand. As I said, he's helped thousands of organizations to clarify their messages in order to grow their business. He holds a PhD in communication, fancy, fancy, fancy, and has spent over 20 years practicing and teaching communication and in marketing and PR. He's done it for lots of different companies, including nonprofits, including profits. He's speaking to thousands of people about creating this clear message and is currently an adjunct professor. I don't know what that means, but I think it, I think it means you're very important in Vanderbilt University's Owen Graduate School of Management. He's also the co-host of Marketing Made Simple, which is our sibling show on the HubSpot Podcast Network. So you should definitely go and check that out and go and subscribe. So let's go meet JJ and find out why he's so passionate about the use of story in all aspects of business.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottMy background is all really in the space of story. I really looked back. If you looked at my life before I came to StoryBrand, it would kind of on the surface look very eclectic. So I was, I did public relations for 2 multinational nonprofits. So worked in both in Mexico and then in 8 different countries in Africa and doing community development. So I was telling stories. Then I actually went into improv comedy for a while and I toured around the North America doing improv comedy and then did some acting and directing in Hollywood and writing in Hollywood, and then decided to go back and get my master's in what was actually theology of story, the theology of the arts of television and film, and then began teaching communications at the university level and became dean of students, and then ultimately sold a reality television show and got my PhD in communications.
Leanne ElliottWow. Yeah.
Al ElliottAnd then that ultimately led to me meeting Donald Miller. And then as soon as I went through the StoryBrand framework, I was hooked. I thought everybody in the world needs to see this, know this, understand this. And I've kind of then since then dedicated my life to teaching people how story works, how to create clear communication through using the story framework. And ultimately that works in for leadership in business, for marketing in business, for anybody who's trying to communicate anything, when you can communicate clearly and effectively, then not only does your life change, but the lives of the people that you're serving do as well.
Leanne ElliottA very cool guest. Yeah, really thrilled to have Dr. J.J. on the podcast. And I think as well, just really showing, and we've talked about this before, but I think really perhaps demonstrating more than ever, like the opportunity there is in collaboration between people and culture leaders and marketing communications Hopefully that will all become clear in this episode. So to help us even more, our second guest is Orly Ziwi. Orly launched her consulting practice in 2002 to address the growing lack of brand clarity in the emerging digital age. She builds the DNA of startup brands and establishes messaging that quickly connects founders with their ideal customer so they can scale in months instead of years. She's a thought leader. She holds an MBA in strategic design, and she's also the author of her book, Ready Launch Brand. The Lean Marketing Guide for Startups. It was published in May 2021 and quickly made it to the number 1 spot on Amazon. Let's meet Orly.
Al ElliottMy name is Orly Ziwi. I'm a brand architect and your facilitator of light bulb moments. I help my clients really answer 2 key questions: who am I? Who are they? Who am I as a brand? Who am I in terms of, you know, what, what's my vision, mission? And also really kind of get clear on my pitch, my elevator pitch, so that I can connect with the people who actually need what I do and do it in a very succinct way because the goal of the work that I do is to help you cut through the noise. So please forgive us for the slight marketing slant on this, but it all will become clear because this marketing is communication and leadership is communication. Anyway, so these are incredible guests, but first, it's that time of the week. It's the news roundup.
Leanne ElliottHear the jingle.
Al ElliottWhat do you got, Leanne?
Leanne ElliottOh, I'm so Pleased to be back. It feels like a couple of weeks since we've done a news roundup. Um, I am very excited to tell you, Al, we have a new word.
Al ElliottNew word alert!
Leanne ElliottFunemployment.
Al ElliottFunemployment.
Leanne ElliottFunemployment.
Al ElliottOkay.
Leanne ElliottSo yeah, thank you to Lorna King, which is your bestie, Al, isn't it, on LinkedIn? Um, so I saw her post celebrating her last day of fun employment. So fun employment is a period of time where individuals decide to enjoy their free time that comes either with being unemployed until they find a new job or when they're between jobs. Apparently it was actually coined back in 2007 and '08 in the Great Recession, so I either missed that memo or it's having a bit of a— we're reclaiming it, uh, given the current—
Al ElliottRevival.
Leanne ElliottExactly, revival. Um, so yeah, millions of workers lost their jobs So, um, decided to participate in some unemployment. So typically people will participate in leisure activities such as traveling, volunteering, or socializing, and it's all about the philosophy of don't worry about being jobless, we've got savings, we've got time, um, let's just enjoy the break.
Al ElliottI really like that. It's like a different slant on things. I mean, I think we're— if we're not careful, we do take life a bit too seriously. And, um, you know, that the whole between jobs thing is just, just too much of a cliché these days. So, fun employment, I absolutely love it.
Leanne ElliottMe too. Um, so something else, uh, this week, unless you've been living under a rock, you'll know about the roller coaster that Twitter has been through the last 6 months. Um, if you haven't, head back to our episodes, uh, on the truth behind the Twitter layoffs back from November 2022. I will leave a link. So news from this week is that Twitter has a new chief executive. In the shape of Linda Yaccarino. She's an American advertising executive who until 2 weeks ago was the chair of global advertising and partnerships at NBCUniversal. Word is Linda will focus mainly on operations while Elon Musk will focus on product design and new technologies. She tweeted this week that she's long been inspired by Elon's vision to create a bright future and is excited to help bring this vision to Twitter and I bet she is as well. Yeah, she starts in 6 weeks. Linda, good luck, godspeed, and we look forward to having you on the podcast very soon.
Al ElliottCome on, Linda!
Leanne ElliottBut of course, it's not just Twitter that has big news this week. It's been a big week in the UK. Not only did we host the Eurovision Song Contest on behalf of Ukraine, which is really cool, we also crowned our new king. King Charles III's coronation. We weekend, saw lots of street parties. The coronation concert was pretty good, although a very smooth-faced Lionel Richie performance was a bit odd, um, and a somewhat sheepish, sheepish Prince Harry shuffling into Westminster Abbey there. Um, but yeah, what does this have to do with people and culture? Well, this week there is new research that has found the number of people still working over the age of 70 has increased by 61% in a decade. And of course, King Charles is one of those people, having taken the throne at the age of 74. So Restless, the digital community which offers advice to older workers, found that a total of 446,000 people over the age of 70 were in employment or self-employed in 2022. That is 169,000 more than 10 years ago. So Sky News spoke with Stuart Lewis, who is CEO of Restless, who said that the increase of older people in the workplace could be driven by number of factors, both positive and negative. On the positive side, it could be that people are looking to maintain social connections, maintain a sense of purpose, contribute positively to the community. But the increase could also be attributed to the rising cost of living and pressures the over-70s feel to maintain work and their pension savings while they can. We actually had a really interesting conversation on the podcast with, um, Carrie Cardinale, who is SVP at Modern Elder Academy. So if you're interested in hearing more about older people in the workplace, go and check it out. But yes, regular listeners will know that we quote loads of research on why developing your leadership skills is one of the most important and impactful things you can do as a business leader. But what is the number one leadership skill you should develop? Well, recent research backs up Ranstad's thoughts, with 3 in 4 employees seeing effective communication as the number one leadership attribute, yet less than 1 in 3 employees feel like their leaders communicate effectively. So this week, we're here to guide you through what it takes to improve your communication skills to have more impact. The key is to take your ego out of it.
Al ElliottSo let's just start with the problem. Okay? So the biggest problem with being a leader is you almost certainly have to spin lots and lots of different plates. And I'm talking business owner, leader, whatever you, whatever you're doing, if you are leading people, you've got a lot on you. your mind. The temptation is immediately is just to offload those. The other thing is that those problems become so big that they kind of get welded to your own ego where you feel like the biggest thing I've got to do is grow this business over the next 6 months. So what it means is if you're not careful, the problems that you think you have always almost certainly revolve around you. But the thing is, you're not the only one with a lot of things in your kind of this mental inbox. JJ Peterson pointed out that we now have actually more messages than we ever have before. So with everything we have going on in our lives and in the world, people are receiving between 3,000 and 5,000 commercial messages a day, just commercial messages. That's not family messages. That's not emails at work. 3,000 to 5,000 commercial messages a day. We are overwhelmed with information at any given moment. And so in order to break through that noise, you have to communicate effectively. So our other guest wholly agrees and used the example of Times Square before explaining how not to be able to break through this noise is often why businesses fail. If you were to stand in the middle of Times Square, you would literally be surrounded by more than 200 messages. And the interesting thing that I have learned over the years is that we connect with the messages that mean something to us. And so out of those 200 messages, maybe you'll see 5 and maybe you'll remember 2. And so that gives you a sense of kind of as brands, we are all standing in the middle of Times Square. We're all trying to cut through the noise, hoping to be heard. You can't do that if you're unclear about who you are, what you do, and who needs it. And as it turns out, the number one reason that startups fail is there's no market need. And that's because so often companies, you know, founders don't take the time To figure out if in fact somebody needs what they're doing. Are they, are they actually solving the right problem for the right client?
Leanne ElliottOrly explains that we connect with the messages that mean something to us. But with so many, 12,000 a day, how do we even begin to narrow it down? As JJ explains, our brains are pretty good at filtering information. In fact, it's a matter of survival.
Al ElliottOur brains are actually designed to keep us alive. That's kind of the primary purpose of our brains is to keep us alive. And the way that our brains keep us alive really is 2 primary things. It helps us— our brain is trying to always look for information. This is the first thing, information that helps us survive and thrive. And the second thing is our brain is trying to not burn calories to understand that information. And let me explain both of those really quickly. So, when you and I, say, walk into a Starbucks or a coffee shop, we know where the counter is, we know where the bathrooms are, and we can see if there's empty seats. Our brain instantly does that. It kind of focuses. Like, if somebody walked into a coffee shop, I could say to them in the first second, where do you buy coffee and where's the exit? And they'd be able to just point immediately. Now, if I said to them, how many tiles are in the ceiling? They wouldn't know. How many chairs are in this coffee shop? They wouldn't know. How many different beans are in that jar over there? How many scones do they have? We don't know that information because our brain does not want to keep the information that does not immediately directly contribute to our survival and thriving. Because if we had to process every piece of information that was coming at us at any given minute, we'd never move, ever. You would sit in one place and process every piece of information. So, our brain goes, don't need that, don't need that, don't need that. What do I need in order to survive and thrive? And you have to know immediately. The second thing the brain does to keep us alive is basically At any given moment, your brain has a limited number of thinking calories in it. And as the harder you think, the deeper you think, those calories deplete in your brain. And that's why you have to like stand up every 90 minutes and walk around, or you start daydreaming. That's actually a survival mechanism. You don't want to start thinking about stuff. The average human daydreams 30% of the day. It's a survival mechanism. So, Basically, your brain just says, I don't want to have to think hard because if I think too hard, I'm going to burn all my thinking calories. And if an emergency situation comes up, I'm going to die. So our brain is just in that place all the time. Subconsciously, we are looking for information that helps us survive and thrive, and we are doing— trying to do so in such a way that doesn't burn any calories.
Leanne ElliottSo I understand what Al is saying in terms of all of these messages vying for our attention. And I understand what JJ's saying in terms of this makes sense, how our brains operate in terms of our evolution, our fight or flight response. But what does it mean in the business world? What does it actually mean for leaders?
Al ElliottAs a leader in your organization, your people are getting bombarded with information all the time, whether it's emails, whether it's just the, the details in their office, whether it's commercial messages that are coming their way, whether it's family information, they are getting bombarded. And if you are communicating in such a way that does not actually contribute to their survival and thriving, and you're doing it in a complicated way so that they have to burn too many calories to understand, they are literally designed to tune you out. Their brain tunes out your information. It's done because they're— so it's kind of extreme, but they're basically like, if I sit through this presentation and pay attention to every detail, I might die.
Leanne ElliottLike, that's Yeah.
Al ElliottOur brain is subconsciously kind of doing that, right? It's like kind of going through the process of saying, if I pay attention to this, I could die later. So, I'm going to turn off. I'm going to daydream during this presentation. So, when we understand that people are actually designed to tune us out, what we have to begin then doing is say, how do I break through that noise and that clutter? And the way you do that is by communicating in a way that, again, contributes to people's survival and thriving and does so in a way that they don't have to burn The most effective way to do that is through story.
Leanne ElliottI have definitely been in a presentation and wanted to die.
Al ElliottYeah, yeah. I think this is really, really interesting because you say you want to die, but, you know, we use phrases like die of boredom. You know, we already use this kind of information, this kind of phrases and stuff. So I think the thing is that when people make it about themselves rather than the actual audience, then they're just boring. We all, we all know that one person who you go and you go, oh God, Derek's not gonna be there again, is he? God, he always talks about his bloody dog, or his—
Leanne ElliottAnd again, in terms of phrases, what JJ was saying about calories, that I have not got the energy for you today. Yes.
Al ElliottNow what I really love is that JJ talks about wrapping things up into a story, because let's be honest, when we are watching a film an hour and 2 hours, 2 hours 20— isn't Titanic about 3 hours or something?
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottLord of the Rings, I'm sure, is 19 and a half hours. 6 days long. But the whole point is people are engaged through the whole thing because of the story, because it follows this framework. Lord of the Rings, perfect example. I've not watched it, I've not read it, but I know people who absolutely love it and it does follow this thing. So before you dismiss this as too simplistic, in other words, oh well, the way to take my ego out of it is tell a story, just think about some of the biggest successes in history because they kind of started off as very Very short stories. So JFK said back in, was it '61, '62? Before this decade is out, we will put a man on the moon and bring him back safely. That's a mini story. You're not saying I'm going to put a man on the moon. We're saying we're going to put a man on the moon. Amazon, they want to be the Earth's biggest store. Now I understand Amazon has fallen from grace a little, but just think about the idea of the story. It's really simple to be Earth's biggest store. You understand that.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottGoogle originally started off, don't be evil. In those 3 words, it told a story about its brand, about what it's going to do for its users. And now I say this with a pinch of salt, Trump, Donald Trump, make America great again. Now we're going to come back to Donald Trump in a second. And I just want to be clear that none of this will be talked about— we will be talking about politics, American politics. It's just for the example's sake. So don't turn off if you are not a Trump fan. These are just short stories that wrap up important messages into a story with a meaning that doesn't pollute it with your own ego. Here's JJ on why stories are so important. Stories help us make sense of information and the world. So in essence, you know, like there's— I just kind of mentioned as I was telling my story is really I told you pieces of my story that gave it meaning. But I did 500 other things in the meantime as well, right? Like, I was on— I was in a Missy Elliott music video. I was on The Office. I did all these things that I just kind of leave out because I'm focusing the meaning of my journey into one kind of thread, one story that helps make sense for people why I'm even talking on this podcast, right? I have 20 years of experience. learning and understanding story, and now I help other people with story. That's the meaning. That's kind of the thread of my story. And the reason why— and I used story to distill that information, my 50,000 things I've done in my life, down to information that actually is meaningful to the audience that I'm about to speak to.
Leanne ElliottOrly agrees that stories are important and breaks it down further by explaining the power of words.
Al ElliottThe words are critical. Again, it's because it really comes back to what I said earlier, which is you use the wrong words and nobody hears you. You use the right words and all of a sudden you're at the top of the line, right? You're at the, the head of the line. And so I will tell you then, when I changed my— and, you know, I'm gonna go back to LinkedIn since that's, you know, the— that's the B2B space and that's really who I work with, are B2B, uh, companies. And what I have found— what I found was When I changed my title to Facilitator of Lightbulb Moments, I literally was getting connection requests from qualified leads. I was getting opportunities to speak, to be a mentor, to do all kinds of things just based on that title. I literally had somebody contact me for a project just because the title stood out. So I know the power of words, and I know that when And I will also say one other thing around words: less is always better. So hopefully you're on board that the easiest way to remove your ego as a leader is to tell a story that makes the listener, in other words, your team, the hero. Now, JJ goes on to explain that stories are formulaic and that all stories share the same 7 elements. If you've read StoryBrand, which I think a lot of people have, you'll know what I'm talking about. The clue here is the highly edited story, because that's the best way to communicate. For example, nursery rhymes, children's stories. If you've ever read Aesop's Fables, they're all edited messages that usually convey an important lesson that the author thinks the listener should hear, but isn't about the author. It's about usually a fictional person who goes through some kind of adversity. But you've got so much on your plate as a leader. How the hell are you going to create a story around everything? Well, as I mentioned before, JJ has a simple Actually, the formula was developed, even began to be developed all the way back with Aristotle and Plato in Poetics. They would argue that if you wanted to move people to action, if you wanted to even change culture, the best way to do it was through story. And so they began to say, then how do you tell stories in a way that moves people to action? And those formulas, you know, there's lots of different formulas out there, but they've ultimately been refined over and over and over again. And I think that's what's so powerful about this book. And so, that if you break story down to its most basic form, there are really 7 elements in every good story. And I'll just say them quickly, but it is that there is a character in a story, that's number one, that encounters a problem. So, they experience something that gets in the way of what they want. Then they have to meet a guide who helps them overcome that problem.
Leanne ElliottOkay.
Al Elliottwho helps them overcome the problem, like a Yoda or a Gandalf. The guide then gives them a plan. That plan then calls them to action. That ultimately there's stakes in the story that have to result in success or failure. Those are the 7 plot points that every story has to hit. When you understand how story works, I'm giving a very high-level view here, and then we can kind of dive in if you want. But when you understand how story works, you understand that Then those 7 elements are what you need to hit in every piece of communication that you're giving. You need to understand what it is that your audience, the people you're talking to, want. They're the hero of the story. You are not. So they're the hero of the story. They are encountering problems in their life. You then want to come in and position yourself as the guide who helps them overcome their problems. Give them a very clear Plan a path forward to overcome their problems. What is their call to action? What is the thing they need to do? And then ultimately cast a vision for what life is like if they do that and have a happy ending, success, or don't do that and they miss out and have failure. I use those elements with organizations to help them refine their communication to say, all right, if you're trying to communicate to your staff, They are the hero of their own story. You are not the hero of their story. So you don't need to tell your story to them. You actually need to tell their story to them. You need to invite them into the story that they get to be a hero. So you need to clearly communicate what it is that they want. You need to be able to articulate what problems they're experiencing, how you can help them overcome that, how have you— what's the plan for them to do that? What are they supposed to do next? And then cast a vision for success and failure. Like, if I'm saying to anybody, hey, we need to hit our 4th quarter goals or we're not going to be a $100 million company this year. That's where a lot of leaders come in and say like, all right, guys, we need to get going because we need to hit $100 million. We're going to be a $100 million company. How at all does that contribute to their survival and thriving? How does that overcome a problem for them? Have you given them a clear plan to do it? Have you cast a vision for what life is like if they do? Do they know what action they're supposed to take to get there? Or are you just going, rah-rah everybody, we need to hit $100 million?
Leanne ElliottThis is absolute gold. So we have the formula: the hero, the problem, the guide, the plan, the call to action, avoiding failure, and securing success. I joke daily that employees are looking for a hero. And as JJ explains, leaders aren't the hero, our employees are.
Al ElliottAll of us are living our own story, and in reality, we're the hero of our own stories. I'm the hero of my story, you're the hero of your story. We're the main character in our movie. If you as a leader or you as a business come to me and position yourself as the hero of the story, now we are actually in competing stories. Right? We're not in the same story. So, I immediately begin to distrust you because you have to win in your story to be the hero, and I have to win in my story to be the hero. So, if we're both trying to win and I can sense that in you, then I am immediately adversarial to you because I'm suspicious. I'm going, wait, what are they trying to get from me in order so that They can win, right?
Leanne ElliottYes.
Al ElliottWe need to not position ourselves as the hero of our story. We need to position ourselves as the guide in the story. We are the guide, and the people that we're speaking to are the hero. What does it look like to be the guide? A guide offers empathy to the hero's story. So offers empathy to say, I understand the problems you're experiencing, but also authority. I have the ability to help you overcome those problems. Okay? That's kind of how you position yourself as a guide. The only time you ever should talk about yourself is with empathy and authority. One of my favorite moments in the interview is when JJ took a moment to break down how clearly defining the hero of the story as the audience massively affected the 2016 Trump-Clinton election. Again, I'm going to reiterate, neither Leah nor I nor JJ are talking about the politics here, just the campaign. What's interesting is once he became president, he really did become the hero of his own story. And Which is why I think he lost his second term. But when he was on the campaign trail, he did not position himself as the hero. He positioned the American people as the hero. It was Make America Great. That was his slogan, right? And it was these short, quick soundbites that were easy to communicate and showed how he was going to make other people's lives better. So, he immediately did Make America Great. He would go to Iowa and he'd be like, Iowa is the best state in the United States. This is the best pig farmers in America. I'm going to become a pig farmer myself. You know, he's like going through this whole thing. He did a really good job. And he's like, we're going to clean the swamp out of Washington. Like, he had some catchphrases, but every catchphrase really went after the American people and made them the hero. In contrast, Hillary Clinton's campaign slogan was, I'm with her. Literally, I'm with her. And the reality is, again, not trying not to be too political, just looking at this on a surface level of communication. Hillary was way more qualified, had way more experience, should have walked into that White House, did not have the same controversy, level of controversy, and yet she didn't. And there's a— I think there's a couple reasons. One, her slogan was, I'm with her. It made her the hero of the story, not the American people.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottThen you went to her website, and I believe the first thing you saw was, I don't remember the exact number, but I think it was somewhere around 174, 117 reasons to vote for Hillary Clinton. 117 reasons to vote for her, to help her win. If they would've given us 3 reasons why voting for Hillary helps me, changes everything. Instead of I'm with her, changed it to she's with us. Changes everything. And I really genuinely believe those small, simple changes would have won her the presidency because she didn't lose by a lot.
Leanne ElliottIt's such a great example. And I absolutely love that simple change that JJ talks about that Hillary Clinton could have made, that instead of I'm with her, she's with us.
Al ElliottIt really genuinely gives me goosebumps, that kind of thing. And I'm not just sucking up to my hero, JJ. I've made JJ the hero of my story, haven't I? But I'm not just sucking up to him, but it really is, it's just like, oh my God, that simple change just would have changed everything. And oh God, I love it. I love it. JJ for president.
Leanne ElliottI think that's the thing, isn't it? You know, often we look at politics for examples of effective leadership, not necessarily positive or negative leadership, but effective leadership. And that's why we can often apply it in business. As well. So what steps can we take as leaders to develop our communication skills, and how can we use the power of storytelling to inspire our employees and drive lasting change? Well, we have 5 areas that you can focus on, and the first is values. So going back to the Randstad report we mentioned earlier, results show that more than ever, the workforce wants to be part of an organisation that provides an inclusive and diverse workplace. And importantly, one whose values align with theirs, and a business that has a clear social and environmental commitment. So in fact, 72% of employees consider an organization's values and purpose important, and 36% said they would not work for a business whose values did not align with theirs. Al agrees and recommends values as the first place to start.
Al ElliottThe first step is always, who am I? And by that I mean Do you understand very clearly what you do and what it means and why it matters, right? So that gets to the core value, the value prop, what makes you different from your competition. And then that helps you really look around you and say, gosh, is there really a need for what I do? And then the key thing is once you understand who you are, and by the way, it's really hard to sell something if if you yourself don't understand what you're selling. So that's why I always start with that why. The why is really critical. And so I have a whole process to really unpack that. And it's not just, oh yeah, I sell shoes. No. Or I'm a coach and I sell coaching services. It's really about what is behind all of that. Why are you a leadership coach and what kind of leaders do you work with? Because I've actually worked with quite a few leadership coaches, and what I discover each time is, you know, a coach means nothing. That's really generic language. And so part of what I help leaders do is use the kind of language that will help them cut through the noise. That's why I don't call myself a brand consultant.
Leanne ElliottI call myself your facilitator of lightbulb We talked about this quite a lot on the employer brand episode, that it really is about differentiating yourself from your competition. And I think now, as an employer, as a business owner, understanding my values, my why, and communicating them effectively is a really important part of attracting talent today. Yeah, absolutely.
Al ElliottI mean, there's so many studies that show that particularly Gen Z and millennials will actively switch from, let's say, telecom carriers or from brands who don't align with their personal values, which to us Gen Xers and boomers, you know, who tended to go for the cheapest traditionally, quite kind of counterintuitive. But Ali goes on to explain that it's not that having great values is not just good for your employees, it's good for business. 2017, there was a communications research study just again of Americans. And what was interesting is that this As consumers, right, 87% said they would patronize a business if it was consistent with their values, and 76% would not if it didn't. And also, 89%— that's almost 9 out of 10 consumers— said they were willing to switch to a comparable brand that was more aligned with their values.
Leanne ElliottSo that is our first recommendation: focus on your values. Understand what is important to you, how this can resonate with your customers, and so importantly, How this can also resonate with your employees.
Al ElliottThe second thing here is brand alignment. Now, this might sound a bit of a corporate dull, dull phrase, but it's not. The whole point is brand, and we're not talking fancy logos, we're talking about Jeff Bezos' definition of brand, what people say about you when you're not around. There are only really 2 people who talk about you behind your back. It's your customers, and it's your employees. So you've got a brand of both, really. But you're in trouble if they both don't tell good stories.
Leanne ElliottYeah, I think there are a couple of metrics here that can serve as a telltale sign if you're not sure if your internal and external brand are aligned. And I think that's customer retention and employee retention. So if your customer retention is really high, but your employee retention is really low, you know, you're losing employees, then it's quite likely your brands are not aligned. And if there's anything that we cannot stand, you know, it's incongruence. And the trouble is, as businesses grow, this misalignment can easily happen. And often as leaders, it's quite hard for us to see it, as Al explains.
Al ElliottI'm thinking of a summer day camp that I rebranded several years ago, and they lost their why, right? They— and what happens, and this is very common, and they've been around since the '50s, they started something that they really believed in, and it was a gold standard of day camps. Some were day camps. And as the competition grew, instead of kind of hunkering down on the reason they started, they started to respond to the competition. And that's part of how you lose your way. You lose sight of why you started this. And so when we did the rebrand, and this was kind of, this was really, I have to say, an amazing process because one of the things I did is I read dozens of letters from their campers and just amazing endorsements of how this place like changed their life, made them a better person, a better human, you know, better human being, a better parent. I mean, it was incredible. And, and so what happened was during our rebrand, the rebrand process, what I discovered is that all of their messaging had started to move around the lake. I mean, it's in their name and, and they have a huge lake. I forget how many acres it is. And the reason they really send their kids there is not because of the lake, but because it's a place where they get to, they get to be kids and grow and learn and in a safe environment. And the lake is important because they happen to have the top swim program in Northeast PA. And so at the end of that process, The tagline is, this is the place where small kids do big things. Going back to what I said about, you know, we're all standing in the middle of Times Square, it's that idea that if it doesn't align with what we care about, we literally don't see it. So now there's a picture, there's a symbolized, you know, image of a child literally jumping off what could be a pier, a pool, right? Because the whole idea is that they're learning to do big things, and swimming is a big part of that experience.
Leanne ElliottDid you know that the UK's number one management podcast— that's us, by the way— and the UK's number one marketing podcast are both on the same podcast network?
Al ElliottWe actually have a lot in common. We both use behavioral science to help people do better at work.
Leanne ElliottAnd we both had to wrangle Rory Sutherland on an episode.
Al ElliottAnd 2 And you're not gonna say which. Phil, host of Nudge, UK's number one marketing podcast. It's brought to you— we need to do this in threes—
Leanne Elliottthe HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals.
Al ElliottSeamless, seamless. Tell us about your latest episode, Phil. Uh, we've just done an episode on fake fandom and how New York indie bands are paying agents to create fake fandoms for their bands. To create fake TikTok videos about how much they like their work. And we talk about the behavioural science behind fandom and how that encourages people to enjoy the music and all of that good stuff, and do some big things about how this affects the world of politics, business, and brands as well.
Leanne ElliottIt is, it's such, it's such a good show. Of course, you'll hear all the stuff you want to hear about how to grow your business by using behavioural science in your marketing. But there's also just some really interesting episodes that will be right up your street. Personally, I enjoyed. Can balsamic vinegar make beer taste better?
Al ElliottIt can.
Leanne ElliottAnd are we all just status-seeking monkeys?
Al ElliottI am. Go and listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.
Leanne ElliottBut come back.
Al ElliottYeah, come back. Definitely come back, because Nudge isn't as good as this.
Leanne ElliottSo come back.
Al ElliottI'll cut that out.
Leanne ElliottKeep that in. Employees do not go into your office to enjoy the ping pong table and the comfy chairs in the break room. They go in for experiences and for growth and to learn and develop and be in inspired. And it's the same thing. I think what's so funny about this is this is exactly the realization that Al and I came to and why we actually started Oblong, our business together. Because Al was working on a consumer research marketing project, I was working on an employee engagement project, and we were both doing surveys to generate insights from— me from employees, Al from customers— to then create communications and interventions that were going to engage people more in the organization and what it was trying to do.
Al ElliottFun fact, I did a fostering campaign for a local authority in the UK. And the actual, the whole tagline for the campaign came from one thing that a lady said when I interviewed her about being a foster parent. I could never have come up with that. And by the way, I did disclose that it came from the research, not from my mind.
Leanne ElliottIt made me cry, that campaign, by the way.
Al ElliottIt was very, very powerful. Which I took as a win.
Leanne ElliottIn a good way, yeah, in a good way. But yeah, so in the same way that we ask our customers, we have to ask our employees to be able to understand and communicate our brand effectively. Customer brand and employer brand are fundamentally intertwined.
Al ElliottI sometimes, I, you know, I wonder if it's a chicken, you know, it's a chicken-egg conversation, right? Because you have to have a strong employer brand to get top talent. And it's your people. And this is, this is another thing that's really shifted, I think, especially since the pandemic, that we're realizing that our greatest asset of any company is the people. You know, it's not the products, because who's making the products? Who's selling the products? Who's promoting the products? You know, it's not some nameless, faceless thing. It's people that you have, that you have contact with. And what, you know, what I have seen is that, that kind of understanding of who we are from an internal perspective, if you can build an employer brand that makes people feel like they're heard, they're respected, There's opportunities for them to grow. And this really started with millennials, I would say. It's not enough. The money is not the end-all of everything, right? I mean, money, of course, matters, but it also matters, are you in a place that's also aligned with your values? And do you see a way that, you know, where you feel proud of being there? And happy employees are also happy customer relationship people. Because when we are, right, when we're happy, we tell the world about it. And believe me, when you're unhappy, you tell the world about that too, right? So, so I think the two are so intricately, um, entwined. I really don't see how you can separate one from the other.
Leanne ElliottOur third recommendation is authenticity. So if you listen to our WaterCool episode, you'll remember that all of our experts agreed when it comes to effective communication as a leader, Authenticity is critical. And I think this is a shift that we're seeing in the workforce. Research has shown that 79% of employees will quit their job due to a lack of appreciation from leaders. Now, we have said that as a leader, you shouldn't be the hero. And that might sound counterintuitive to you because heroic leadership was the dominant theory at one point, that point being the 1940s.
Al ElliottMm-hmm.
Leanne ElliottBut still, you know, it was based on, on 2 principles. One, that leaders are born, not made, and 2, that great leaders arise when there is a need for them to be great. So, words like charismatic, confident, dominant come to mind, and often the leaders that we work with can worry that they can't be this kind of leader. You know, perhaps they're more introverted than extroverted is a typical thing that I hear a lot. And the truth is authenticity, which is truly caring about your employees, being empathetic, and adopting more servant leader style behaviours are more effective, particularly when it comes to change and transformation. And as JJ explains, being a great storyteller as a leader doesn't require an innate set of characteristics. It requires a formula.
Al ElliottThere's so much research out there that just shows like that narrative communication, narrative marketing, narrative leadership outperforms other styles of leadership. So that's one, is that it just— the fact is, good storytellers move people to action in big ways that other people can't. And we just kind of know that even anecdotally, but that's true. But what then people think is that storytelling is all about charisma and about being funny and about all these things. So it feels, I think, a little overwhelming to be like, well, now I just have to be more funny and entertaining. That's not it. And when you're writing a screenplay and trying to tell a story, there's actually maybe like 32 to 36 plot points that you have to hit. So it all feels to me, I think when we talk Yeah. And so, when you talk about story, it starts to feel very daunting, overwhelming. That's not who I am. I have to be naturally funny or naturally charismatic. And people don't realize that actually story is formulaic. And when you understand how story works and it's broken down into its most simple form, and granted, the 7 elements that I mentioned is, I would say, its most simple form. I mean, some people would say you could actually break it down to to, uh, 3 elements: problem, solution, success. That is a very short story, but it's all like— it's formulaic.
Leanne ElliottJJ went on to explain that being charismatic or entertaining is part of the hero psyche, but again reminded us leaders we should not be the hero, we should be the guide. JJ also used the concept of storytelling to help build self-awareness in leaders.
Al ElliottThere really are 4 characters in every story, 4 primary characters in every story. There's the victim, the villain, the hero, and the guide. So those 4 characters exist in almost every story. And the reason they exist in every story is because they exist in all of us. At any given moment, we can play in our own lives the villain, the victim, the hero, or the guide. Now, there's some things you need to understand about those 4 characters. The victim in a story always, pretty much if they stay a victim throughout, not a victim that transforms becomes a hero, but the victim who stays a victim throughout only exists in the story to make the villain look bad and the hero look good. That's it. They're either giving or taking energy from the other characters in the story. That's it. A good story will never be written about a victim who just stays a victim. That's— it just won't. Not inspiring anything. I mean, we can have a depressing, maybe European film that deals with somebody who stays a victim, but that's about it. Like, in America, we, we won't do— they have to transform. But if they stay the same, a good story will never be written about a victim. A villain and a hero, interestingly enough, Often both share a backstory of pain, the similar backstory of pain, meaning they both lost their daughter or they both lost their wife, or they both were, you know, mocked as children or something like that. The villain— and you see that in villains where they have like a scar on their face. Even if we don't know their backstory, we know they've been through a hard life because if there's a scar or something like that. Villains work to revenge that pain. They were pained, they had pain caused to them, and so they are trying to cause pain to other people. The hero ultimately also experienced the same backstory of pain but works to redeem it, works to redeem that pain. And then the hero, when the hero actually has won their own battle, then they kind of elevate to the next level of guide. And they help other people win the day. They no longer have to prove themselves. They no longer have to win. They just help other people win. When I began to understand those 4 different characters in story and began to see that, like, oh, I play all 4 of those. I play all 4 of those sometimes in an hour. I can be a victim, immediately turn into a villain, then redeem the pain with becoming a hero, and then move into the guide space. I could see myself, and I began to see there in the times that I play victim in my own story. Now, there are real victims in the world. This is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when you play the victim. When I play the victim, I'm never going to write a good story with my life, and I'm never going to do it for other people. I only am sucking energy from people, and that gets old very quickly. And in those moments where I turn into a villain, what I'm doing is I'm actually causing other people pain. Based on my own pain. But when I can, in my own life, move into that hero and then ultimately guide role, not only do I live a better story, but I help make the world a better place because of it. And so, when I just kind of began to understand that and try to live my life more in the hero of my own story, redeeming the pain, and then ultimately moving into the guide where I help other people My passion is about helping other people move into those spaces as well, grow their business, change their life, and become kind of the hero of their own story, and then ultimately help other people as well.
Leanne ElliottI mean, my— I'm, or I'm gonna go and write this down in my coaching book after this. I think this would be a fantastic coaching exercise to do with the leaders I work with in terms of, you know, as JJ said, we, we play all of these roles at some point in our Um, you know, and I think that in terms of being the victim, I'm thinking of people that are saying things like, oh well, you know, COVID ruined everything because everything was great before COVID and now having to deal with all these shifting expectations about people want to work from home or work hybrid. I think it's the same when you think about burnout, you know, and the leaders that, that have been through burnout. And, and as you said, you know, JJ, trying to cause that pain to other people to work the long hours. Well, I have.
Al ElliottYeah.
Leanne Elliottto do it, so why shouldn't you do it? Whereas the leaders that are really inspiring people are those that are trying to change that experience of work and eradicate that negative experience of work. So I think, yeah, I challenge you leaders, if you're listening, do some reflection tonight and just write down if you can think of some point over the last week, the last month, when you have played the villain, the victim, the hero, and the guide. And I think that'd be a really interesting point of reflection to maybe learn where There might be times where you're, you're accidentally playing, unconsciously playing a role that isn't very effective for you as a leader, and perhaps also some examples of what is more effective behaviour. So our 3rd recommendation is to practice authenticity as a leader. Think back to your why. If you've lost it, try and, try and rekindle where that inspiration came from to start your business. And as JJ says, think about the role you're currently playing as a leader. Are you the guide? Are you accidentally being the villain?
Al ElliottSo number 4 is all about this idea of culture. People think culture is very complex. And, you know, they go, right, we're going to go away. The leadership team are going to go away for 2 weeks, and we're going to come up with all these core values and stuff. The fact is that great culture is really, really simple, as are great stories. Remember when JJ was talking about simple stories with one aim? Finding Nemo, you've got to find that fish.
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al ElliottBourne Identity, discover his past. Wizard of Oz, destroy the witch. Although, again, another film I haven't seen, but you're a big fan of it, Leanne.
Leanne ElliottOh, that's a good film. Yeah, it's a good film, that.
Al ElliottNow, these don't have 5 or 10 or 20 different missions. They might have lots of plot points, but that's technical. They don't have it. They've just got one. And all he recommends is you simplify your values into just one core value. This is what's going to become your North Star. If you do not have a visionary leader who is, you know, walking the walk and not just talking the talk, And it's not just about having a whole wall filled with core values, which I always— I have to say, that always strikes me as so odd because how many core values? You only have one. You don't have 20 core values. That's just how you do business. I mean, customer relationship, unless you're the Ritz-Carlton where that's inbred in their DNA of their brand, or Nordstrom's, which is a large—
Leanne ElliottYeah.
Al Elliotta company here, uh, you know, in, in, in the US, you know, customer service is their brand. That's what they're known for. But otherwise, it's just, you know, if you don't have good customer service, you go out of business. So that's the other piece that this whole process that I was telling you about, that my, my branding process also uncovers your core value, and that's kind of like your North Star.
Leanne ElliottYes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes, Orlie, absolutely. I think it's— I'm the same. It amuses me when people have a wall of like 10 values, and that's a lot for people to remember. So typically people will cling on to, on to 1 or 2 or maybe 3. But like you said, values are nothing unless they're lived. And as a leadership team, and you should be doing this in consultation with your employees anyway, but if you absolutely do want to start this process on your own, then at least try and look at the behaviours that Show people how to live that value, as the brilliant example that Ollie gives there of Nordstrom.
Al ElliottYes, and I've heard some strange stories around Nordstrom, where apparently someone took back tires, and they got a refund for their tires, no questions asked, and Nordstrom don't even sell tires. I heard something like that. But what I like about this is that it is a core value, but it also allows for sort of innovation to a certain extent, flexibility. You're not saying that we only refund— our core value is we refund anything we sell. Their core value for Nordstrom was we refund anything the customer's not happy with. And so Ollie talks a bit more about this idea of allowing your core value to allow people to innovate, to ensure that it underpins everything, but also allows his culture to kind of live I have to say, this is one of my soapboxes because you cannot have innovation if you don't have a culture where you're allowed to make mistakes. And so what people focus on, you know, whatever the latest trend is, like everyone wants to be entrepreneurial, they want to have a culture of innovation, they want to be the next Apple, you know, I mean, and, and not to go too far down that path, but, you know, it's— you have to, you have to create a culture where people are allowed blue sky time as they do at Google, by the way, so that they can come up with ideas. And you have to create an environment where people are allowed to discuss those ideas and not worry about being shut down. And a lot of corporations, you know, just don't have that kind of structure.
Leanne ElliottAgain, I think we're talking here about psychological safety, around making sure that workloads actually facilitate time to innovate and create. Um, you can't just say, oh, we have a culture of innovation. That has to fundamentally drip down into not only your style of leadership, but into your operations. And I think that's a big one. If you are gonna, you know, embrace innovation as part of your culture, mistakes are gonna happen, and you have to be okay with that and manage that. And this is actually one of the few times that I will quote Elon Musk as having a good approach to this. If you read anything about SpaceX and then the multiple launch failures they have had, that is never the focus on the failure. The focus is on the learning. The focus of Elon Musk and his commentary is always on what they've learned and how that's going to inform the next stage of development.
Al ElliottAnd in fact, um, Ollie talked then about Google, which I forget, I think they call it 20% time or something they did back in the day. And the idea is that you go off and you do your own thing for 20% of the week. That's where I'm pretty sure Gmail came from, that, uh, Google Reader came from, that some of the most— well, Google Reader shut down, but some of the most, um, like successful parts of Google came from those people who had the core value, don't be evil, which, again, slightly contentious in these days, but back in the day, it was don't be evil, but the flexibility to go out there and try something and just do something without someone saying, why the hell are you spending your time on this bullshit?
Leanne ElliottAbsolutely. And that is our 4th recommendation. Culture is a living, breathing thing. You can't just have values; you need to live them. Our final recommendation is to look for opportunities As I mentioned before, culture isn't this standalone abstract thing. Culture feeds into, into how we think, feel, behave, and how we actually work as well. So our final recommendation is to look for opportunities in operations. What are you already doing from a people and culture perspective that might be more effective if you improve the storytelling behind your employee brand and experience? Orlie highlights the onboarding process.
Al ElliottYou know, here's another example, an onboarding process that's not just, here's a bunch of stuff, good luck, see you later, right? It really has to be, you know, thought through. And I think, you know, branding and marketing can also be applied internally. Like, we have an employer brand. Let's talk about, you know, maybe onboarding could have its own brand and it could have its own process. And then it It's, you know, how we, we message that out within the company. I mean, there's so many opportunities to kind of elevate these experiences and not just relegate them to, oh yeah, this onerous thing that we have to do. Because the reality is retraining employees is expensive. I believe it's 10% of their, of their salary. And so you multiply that by 100 employees, that's a lot of money that goes out the door. You know, you don't leave places where you feel valued. You don't leave places where you feel valued. And the reason you feel valued is because someone is making the story about you. Come on, this is just, this is just common brand sense. This is what costs— this is how you attract customers. This is how you keep customers, by making them feel special.
Leanne ElliottIt's exactly—
Al Elliottit's not exactly, but it's a very similar transaction between your employees and potential employees. We talk about onboarding, but what about Just the actual recruitment process. What happens if someone didn't get the job, but you still sent them, I don't know, a little chocolate in the post and said, I'm really sorry you weren't for us, but here's potentially 2 other companies that might be up your street or something.
Leanne ElliottOh, nice.
Al ElliottI'm not— yeah, I'm not saying you should do that, but I'm just thinking, think about the brand, think about what people say, because one, if you upset one customer, they'll tell 100 people. But if you delight a customer, oh my God, if you want to find out what it's like to delight a customer and the potential effects that can have, then Google CD Baby note, I think it is. Google CD Baby note, and that's all I'm gonna say. You will see that from one tiny thing they did for a customer, they got millions of pounds worth of brand exposure. Okay, I'm stepping down off my soapbox. I'm done.
Leanne ElliottI agree. And I think, again, this is a really good opportunity because I think often Often business leaders think, oh, I don't really know where to start with this stuff. This is stuff you're already doing in terms of employer brand, in terms of how to communicate effectively as a leader, as a business. You're already doing this stuff. I think it's as simple as, you know, onboarding is a really good example. I've worked for organizations, with organizations, where it has been, you know, here's your swag, this is your login to the intranet, we, you know, look through these 15 videos over the next week, and that's your onboarding process. Whereas if you think about, you know, as a If I sign up to like a new CRM platform or a new like coaching platform, I get like an email every week like, how's it going, Leanne? Here's an extra— here's a little masterclass tip on how to do X, Y, and Z. And how cool would that be if a new employee— I'm getting a video from the CEO or the MD saying, hey Leanne, I hope everything is going well. Here's a little masterclass on how to book time off and what your holiday allowance is and all that kind of stuff.
Al ElliottIt's just—
Leanne ElliottYou're already doing it. Just extend what you're already doing to your employees. It really will make the world of difference.
Al ElliottIt really will. So stop seeing your employees as a cost and start seeing them as an investment.
Leanne ElliottOh, put that on a t-shirt, Al!
Al ElliottT-shirts available from store.truthliesandwork.com. Not really, I haven't set that up. So let's just quickly summarize where we're up to.
Leanne ElliottSo the, the 5 key things So number 1, clarify your values and try and understand how you can help these resonate with your team.
Al ElliottNumber 2, ensure that your brand is aligned, both like from customer point of view and from employer point of view, because if one of those people are telling bad stories about you, you can guarantee things are not going to go well for you.
Leanne ElliottNumber 3, practice authenticity as a leader, and maybe try that little coaching exercise I mentioned. Number 4, be a leader who leads with empathy.
Al ElliottDefinitely do that. No. 4, just be really clear. You probably only need one core value and the ability for your employees, your teams, to slightly deviate in order to satisfy that core value.
Leanne ElliottAnd No. 5, look for opportunities in things you're already doing, particularly if they're things that you're already doing for customers that maybe you could do for employees a little bit better, such as onboarding.
Al ElliottRight. So you probably, if you've got this far and you're listening to this, There's probably a part of you going, well, this sounds really cool, but it sounds difficult. It sounds like I'm going to mess it up in some way. Look, the problem is that most leaders and companies are so wrapped up in themselves that they start talking about increasing revenue. How do we reduce costs? How do we get every last drop out of employees by increasing productivity? They probably don't say every last drop, but I'm sure they'll say, how do we increase productivity? When we say it like this, it's clear why our teams aren't as excited about that goal as we are as leaders. So let's stop worrying about growing to a £10 million company. Let's stop worrying about trying to get productivity tools and saying we're going to introduce Slack so that people spend less time on email so we can actually pay them less or make more money from them. Let's start worrying about what is actually worrying them. Let's start helping our employees get what So, I think, you know, the quick tips that I would say as a communicator in leadership is understand anytime you're trying to move people to action, to do anything, whether that's to fill out a new goal sheet or to get excited about a new campaign or to just launch the new year, what you have to realize is if you actually want to communicate in a way that contributes to your audience or your employees' survival and thriving. What you have to do is understand, start by saying, what do they want in this context? So like, let's say I'm getting ready to launch the new year, the new year kickoff. What would everybody in this audience want for this new year? And what is the problem that gets in the way for them getting that? And if you can identify those 2 things right off the bat, that really enters you into a story. So you might say, all right, this year we want to be a successful company that grows. That's about me. So I say this, we want to be a successful company that grows. What then, as part of that, what does my audience want? They want to be secure in their jobs. They want opportunities to grow. And they want to live, build their, the life that they want to live, right? It's a, for their families. That's it. They don't, they don't want, they don't care. The only reason they care if the company's successful is they get to do those first few things. So identifying those and then say, but what is the problem that gets in the way of them getting that, that security? The reality is in an uncertain economic climate, A lot of people are worried about how businesses are going to do this year. That's the problem right now. If you identify those 2 things right at the beginning of your talk, the rest of your talk can talk about how this year we are going to overcome that problem together. That's it. If you start, here's what you want, here's the problem, and then the rest of your speech is your plan to overcome that problem. Now, you've invited them into a story that they get to be a part of. Essentially, they get to be a part of the mighty brigade who saves the world, right? That's it. Versus getting up and going, here's our 3 objectives, here's our 3 goals, everybody's going to have to work their ass off to hit them, and if you don't, you're not getting raises.
Leanne ElliottOh, okay.
Al ElliottNow, I'm suspicious because you're trying to win, you're trying to be a $100 million company, and I know what the Profit margins, it's 25%. So, you're getting $25 million out of this and I'm worried about losing my job and not getting a $2,000 promotion bonus. Okay. Like, I'm giving you 50% work because I don't need this. You know, like, and that's where so many people walk in and just come from a position of power and try to be the hero. You know, they try to be like Patton out front of the, you know, General Patton out front kind of leading and charging those things. I tend to think of leadership Let's position it more like Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz, right? Let's position it more like I'm actually a little lost myself, not fully, not lost, but I'm actually moving towards something and I'm going to link arms with you who's missing a brain and you're missing a heart, and we're going to link arms and we're going to go this together. We're all getting something out of this. And that's kind of how when you do that and as a leader, it changes everything. So, my biggest tip for all leaders would be when Whenever you're communicating anything, I don't care if it's an employee review, I don't care if it's company kickoff, I don't care if it's a new strategy or a new software system you're implementing. Don't walk up and go, hey, everybody needs to use Slack now. Everybody, we're not communicating on email, everybody's using Slack. Nope. You walk up and say, you have to understand what do they want? We want to be more clear and effective at communication, and we actually want to cut down the amount of time that we're spending with emails and everything back and forth. But the problem is, here's how we're going to solve it, and here's how you get to be a part of that. If you can do those first 2 things, it builds the rest of the story by itself. Oh my God, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Leanne ElliottYeah, and such, again, such clear examples that, that JJ gives there. And again, I just think as a leader that it's not— it really isn't about you. Like, you started this business, but it is no longer about you if you have staff, you have employees. Um, yeah, you'll be the guide.
Al ElliottAll right, so we've talked about what happens if you get it wrong. Let's just take a moment to think about what it could look like if we get this right. I've been able to work with some of the, uh, really some of the greatest companies in the world, you know, but some of my favorite have been like the Orange County Children's Hospital, and we actually worked with them on a campaign for internal communication. They were trying to figure out how do we recruit and maintain employees at the Orange County Children's Hospital, and it came from you know. And again, before it was like there's all everything that they created and talked about was we are we're the best hospital for kids. You're going to get this kind of pay package. You're going to da da da da. And they ended up changing their campaigns to say instead of like join. the best. It was join the mighty brigade that protects childhood. And so when you actually, whether you're a janitor, whether you're a doctor, whether you're a nurse, a receptionist, you come to Orange County Children's Hospital to join the mighty brigade and become a defender of childhood. And that small switch changed everything for them. In recruitment and in retention because they no longer were making their business the hero of the story. They made their customer, who— that was their employees. Their employees were their customers in this context, their audience, and they made them the hero of the story, not the hospital. And when I can go in and help a company who is literally saving the lives of children in powerful ways, ways recruit and retain the best talent and the right talent, I would argue, the people who actually are there because they want to be about helping children live better lives. I mean, why wouldn't I dedicate my life to that?
Leanne ElliottAnd what I love about the example that JJ uses, it's having that shared mission that then unites the culture. And I, I think there is sometimes a bit too much Emphasis on culture fit through values, but actually having a very simple mission like this really does embrace all sorts of diversity and inclusion because the only thing we have to agree on is that we're here to save kids, you know, and it's just, it's just, it's just a wonderful example. And I think again, as Ollie said before, having your North Star value, sticking to that, and looking at your, your mission, your culture, your people, your customers as As one, as one, as a whole, you know, all part of, all part of each other, all intertwined.
Al ElliottSo the thing is, as a leader or business owner, you obviously want to hit certain goals. But the best leaders know that in order to get what they want, they have to stay together, they have to help their team get what they want. In short, leaders, we need to edit our ego. Now, what's interesting is JJ did this. He didn't even talk about himself, even though he has some crazy stories. And at the end, I happened to do some research on him. And I about some of these crazy stories, but he told me why he didn't kick off with these stories. So, I do have a very funny baptism. I was baptized in Kenya in a cattle trough with literally cows and Maasai warriors around me. I was on The West Wing. I was on The Office. I did all those things. I didn't mention any of those things early on, and I don't when I get up and speak because when I'm getting up to speak or I'm first being introduced on a podcast, if I start telling those stories, it might It might get people to like me or think I'm interesting, but it doesn't actually position me as a guide in their story. Their story is not about— I can be entertaining if the purpose of this podcast is to just be entertaining. I'll tell you the Missy Elliott story and we'll all laugh. The purpose of this podcast is not to be entertaining. It's to help people be more effective in their leadership and their marketing and their growth of their business. So, when I'm talking and I'm sharing pieces with That's what story is about. I'm actually distilling the information in a way that just positions me as a guide to help you win in that place. Now, if we want to be entertaining, yeah, I've got plenty of entertaining stories. But if we want to be effective in growth, I'm telling you about my path in learning story, working with some of the largest companies in the world, and how to do that and be effective.
Leanne ElliottSuch good advice there because we all have lots of different experiences. You know, Al and I don't start our podcast launching into how we've traveled to 40 6 countries over the last 10 years. Oh, we have. We don't talk about the other things that we've done, the other jobs we've had, the crazy adventures we've had, because they're not relevant. That doesn't add credibility to us in this context, and it doesn't help us be the guide in your story. So, I think this is a really great thing as well, particularly if you're interviewing, thinking about how am I— why am I talking, and what am I saying that's actually adding value to this this situation. I absolutely love that, and I think it's just nice to get to have guests from a very different area share very important lessons, and I think hopefully also just inspire some thoughts in particularly small business owners who might have these expertise in communications, in marketing, um, that can then start to transfer some of those skills over to people and culture. Use that curiosity you have as an entrepreneur to make your workplace an Amazing place to be.
Al ElliottLove it, love it, love it. Edit your ego. It's not about you. Stop making the story about you. Make it about your team, and you'll see amazing results. All links will be in the show notes. You can also find more stuff on truthliesandwork.com.
Leanne ElliottWhere else, Leanne?
Al ElliottWe're on LinkedIn. We talk about this on LinkedIn. You'll be doing a post about this, and you can talk to us directly on LinkedIn. I've said LinkedIn a lot now.
Leanne ElliottYou can. We'll leave the link links in the show notes. to all of our socials in the show notes, along with some of the bits and pieces we've mentioned in this episode. We will be back next week with some more cool, awesome content for you, um, and hopefully you enjoy us being your guide through this world of people and culture. And if you really do enjoy it, consider leaving us a review. It really does help other people to find the podcast.
Al ElliottYep, we'll leave a link to review in the show notes. Thank you so much again And we'll see you next week. Bye-bye. Bye. That was a dog toy.